Arc creator Josh Miller on why you need a better browser than Chrome
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Well, welcome to decoder. I mean, like to tell editor in chief of the virgin and decoder is my show about big ideas, other problems. Today, i'm talking with josh Miller, cofounder and CEO of the browser company, a relatively new software maker that develops the arc browser.

My verge hasc o host on verge editor large dav pierce is a big fan k and he's written about a quite a bit for us. Link is review in another coverage of the product in the show nuts. Basically, art is a ground up rethink of the web brother.

Most modern browsers started out as document viewers in the grew to support running complex applications. Parkman can see is that it's designed to make running and using all those apps as simple as possible. They'll hear josh describe IT as an Operating system several times es, which is a pretty big claim to make.

Here I got into what that actually means for a web browser. There are some A I tools built into the desk, arc broster. But the company also has a mobile APP called arc search that does A I summaries of one pages that puts IT in competition with OpenAI forthcoming search GPT product and google new A I overviews in its search results.

At the same time, he also puts art right in the middle of one of the fiercest debates and tech media today, whether AI companies and products are boosting content for the open web and then turning around and selling to consumers without paying the people who produce that work anything. All we can talk about these topics pretty much nonstop for the last year here on the code. So I was really excited have josh on the show to explore why he built our search, but he hopes that will accomplish.

And what might happen to browser search engines and the web itself is these trends of I also wanted to know how josh's thinking about competing with chrome on the desktop and saari a mobile then, especially how he plans to monetize art. Chrome, safari are a lot of things, but mostly they're developed by some of the richest companies in the world and given away for free. Josh says the plan is to keep the basics of our free but monetized, a mix of customization, automation and productivity tools that will make use your life so much easier that they work for, pay a subscription fee.

It's a big idea to bring competition back to the browser market. And the earlier reception to our husband, positive, but you will hear john, I go over some the major chAllenges the brazil companies face so far to teach people all new sets of metaphors and design languages around what brothers should be doing and why you'd even want to use a web brows er to run apps the way archest suggesting, let alone use a new web broster at all. Of course, josh, I also got into the controversy swirling or and generate A I and whether the web is an information distribution platform will survive, plunder ing all of its pages.

Josh a was pretty Candy here. But what he does and does not know about how the soul might play out. And I got to say he was more open to changing his mind.

And arguably any taxi i've talked to about the subject IT was a good back. And fourth, i'm very curious for your feedback on IT. One quick note before we start. After we recorded the conversation, razer company disclosed a pretty severe security vulnerability in arc that could have let attackers insert code into other users.

Brazil sessions IT was patched a day after a researcher made the company where are vitally August and the company says no users were affected, but it's still a significant issue. And in a statement released last week, the company says that Marks, quote, the first serious security incident in ark's lifetime. We try to get joshed back on the show to talk about that, but he was unavailable the day the flaw was disclosed. The public the company did tell us it's making a lot of big security improvements. And in a separate statement on x cofounder harsh alga said, a heartfelt thanks to all the concern and even outside you've expressed about this incident and for holding us to a high standard, he went on to say, the brothers company will, quote, be using this opportunity to grow as a company, as an engineering organization and personally, as a sound okay, the brothers company CEO josh Miller, here we go.

Josh milla, you the cofounder in the sea of the brothers company, welcome to do coder. Thank you for having me. I like that.

We're in the studio together in new york. Is rare occurrence on decoder. Think he went for being in person with me.

Ah, it's so fun. I was hoping you d go easier on me, but I was told that is absolutely natural.

Oh no, when you're in person, it's even harsh because I can smile. Well, well, well, coming. yeah. It's great to be here. I've been.

I think i've probably listened to almost every verge cast and decoder interview an episode for the past few years. So you're ready. The studio is as nice as you said he was.

We have a fancy new. You have created studio. I'm happier here. There is not sucked that the brothers company runs a browser called arc.

You run a mobile called arc search, which is brothers or Jason. I would say that is IT. IT lets you browse the web in a new way.

Obvious competing with google. Google appears to be in A A moment of change, regulatory change, self phone post change, and then there's AI. And obviously, arc search is built, is an air product.

But let's start a very beginning. What is the browser company? What is art?

The razer party is making a weber ser called dark, which the simplest weight, explained IT, is the verge called IT, the chrome replacement they've been waiting for.

So don't take peers. I David peer said .

that arc is the best browser for laptop people. If you're someone whose livelihood is clicking and clicking on your keyboard every day, we make the best closer for you. Keeps focused, organized and increasingly, we want to do your busy work for you.

Let me ask you a question about that. So if you are somebody who makes money a lot top, you're presumably using a lot of applications, not looking a lot of content. I would love to be a person made a lot of money in a lot of just by looking at a lot of of the people's content. But I suspect what you're get on as this is a productivity application, yes.

So the origin of the browser company is I was a political point to in the obama ite. House, and after the election, I was personally devices ted by the result. And I felt like technology and the technology industry had an impact on the things I didn't like.

And I was very motivated to try to do something about IT. And I take away was, if you are not an Operating system, if you are not a platform by which your applications and contested on top of, you don't really have leverage to change for the Better or worse, the way that society uses technology. So decided not to start a company and do something else.

And then IT was in twenty nineteen. My wife works in the art world for seventy six year old artist and zona. And I was noticing that he never left chrome. SHE was on this high powered macbook air and never left the confines es of chrome.

And so the original observation of the brother company was actually our Operating systems in twenty twenty and and definitely twenty twenty four today are actually our web browsers for a laptop people. They are sitting in applications in a browser. Your files are now your rails, too.

And so the kind of founding inside of the company was we admit browsers were designed for the information highway. They were designed when the web was a publishing platform that has changed. Browsers have not.

Why is that spoiler ert money? Can we make your quality of life on the internet Better? So you are correct in that relative to the origins of the web and the origins of browsers, people are not spending as much time with content as they are with opening their brothers and doing their work.

So it's an application, right? That's what I am getting at one of the things we talk about and decoder all the time is the application model moved from windows to the web to mobile, maybe back to the web. There's something happening there that seems big and it's kind of landed on the web.

Like most people, they wanted deploy a stop application. They turn to the web first. yes. I don't think a lot of people are doing when thirty two first anymore.

Do you see your browser is having a meaningful impact on that classic of developers? Because if you're an Operating system, you have a lot of power, right? Here's the map eyes like here, some capabilities of my Operating system that u developer can use.

This is what all the major Operating system, when they say there up for all the time. Just saying my browser is Operating system in people are deploying applications to the web. Are you in conversation with those applications? Do you offer those developing in capabilities? Or is IT religious to what the end? Ser.

yeah, it's a great question. And I actually think this is where google deserves a lot of credit. I think if there's one thing chrome and the chromium team specifically has done a fantastic job of is building an Operating system or application platform that developers love, generally speaking, and they make IT more and more powerful.

And in fact, you know, you had delena eld on this podcast. fig. Ma would not exist if IT warned for google and chrome and chromium, making the web for antti tic replication platforms.

What we're focused on is the individual sure and the person at the other. So what we think about is the focus on developers and the focus on publishers, as google describes them, has left the individual tuesday two P. M, lacking a lot of powerful tools to make them Better and faster or so.

Of course, we have integrations with different third party application developer. I would love if we could offer stuff that makes them love art more. But in fact, we think that what was missing was looking at my wife using her laptop on tuesday, two pm, way.

That's what she's doing. Like we can do Better. Computers can do more than that. So that's the orientation we take to our work.

One of the big questions, when you're starting new brothers companies, one, how will you take share from google and microsoft in safe? I on partial IOS in two, what engineer is you're not onna write a new browser engine that seems like a mass undertaking. You want IT on crime.

Um seems like the whole industry is headed towards chromium. Microsoft famous, this is crime. Now, was that a big decision? Was that a little decision?

To be honest, I was IT was an intentional decision, but I was a little decision. And for a Better and worse, the theme of my answers in this podcast will probably be, we come back to the individual at tub m on a tuesday yeah if there's one thing they want from their rendering engine, if their familiar with little rendering engine is it's that their web apps work.

So for example, for whatever reason, we have a lot of teachers and people in education using arc. A lot of software at school districts are optimized and actually only work in chrome base pressers. So IT was intentional and that we wanted to make sure we could strip out a lot of the kind of tracking and various parts of crime um that at least that one aligned with our values.

But once we realized that we could do that, we thought, hey, almost every website will work on this rendering engine. We want to make your day Better at two pm. Let's jump to that part to the n person facing part of the software.

So you've got chromium is a render engine the same as chrome arc itself. Is the chrome around chromium? This is just the language.

So we've T A rapper on crime. That's a pretty familiar idea. And then the idea is all of those things will make productivity, particularly productive ity for knowledge workers, Better.

On the web you've invented a lot of terminology like there are new metaphors. There's new words in here. How did you go about this task?

I honest.

don't think understand the question. Um there's a side bar. There are space.

There's just metaphors after metaphors and are that are different than chrome, right? Yes, there's boosts like there's just a lot of words and concepts in this browser which are interesting, yes, but a lot of them are we have to teach people in new metaphor for using the web or thinking about, yes, this brochure is an application layer in their computer, is supposed to just to what broster where? Where did the genesis this come from? And how did you go about honestly picking of these names?

Yes, to be totally honest, I regret many of those words I wish we didn't have so many new concepts, and I think it's too complicated of a piece of software for many people. And I think we have to make IT a lot more simple.

But where IT came from was, wait a minute, if you look at someones tab bar and they have fifty tabs open, and there are really tiny, tiny, and there are a lot of duplicate, why you don't need five version of the same google talk, how can we solve that problem? And so most of the new concepts came from the perspective of what is broken, what is wrong with the way people use the brothers today, and can we invent a way to alleviate that problem? And so what that LED you, for Better or for worse, was a lot of small features and a lot of small ideas that make your day just a little bit Better.

Save your couple clicks. I think it's built a very cult like following in the software, but has made IT a bit too unapproached for the average person. And that IT is a lot of new idea is and that part of what were working on now, how do we strip away a lot of the experiments that didn't worker, didn't work as strongly as we hope they would to something a lot more focused than a lot more essential, which right now is focused on how do we do your busy work for you.

Because people, I think, love our features. Like when you're playing a youtube video and you click away, we automatically open the picture and picture player or if we noticed you have tabs open, you've had opened for a long time that you haven't used, let just tuck them away neat for you. And so we're going to be focused on kind of trimming down the product even more and really trying enhancing the bit that does you're busy work for you has these little moons of delights.

This seems like the chAllenge, right? If I have identified one set of users that already knows you're using a web brows er as a productivity platform that already knows that all the apps, certain broza, and there's another class of users that is just using safari because it's what came on a mac and you've gotta get more of those people in order to go your user base, how do you baLance the two if feels like you already have the power user problem?

The way that we started building this product was through the lengths of problem statements. And that's how we ended up with so many different solutions in so many different words. But I think the byproduct that is four years later, I think we've a much crisper understanding for the average laptop person who again, doesn't know what a rendering engineers and honestly probably isn't reading the verge and isn't an early adopter.

What are the most painful, annoying, tidiest parts of their day on the internet where if we just focused on them, they they say, wait, I want that. And I do think as much as there are some things that may be power users, there are other ideas in there that you talk to ten and to ten people in this demographic and they go, yeah, I have seven windows and eighty seven tabs and it's a mess and it's chaotic and I feel overwhelmed. And so we're going to be focused on trying to build an antidote to a few specific problems.

I feel like web apps, in general, require people to understand your metaphors. We often write and talk about how Younger people are not as aware of file systems as a concept because they grow up on iphones and ipads and cribs devices. Using something like fig requires a bunch of people to accept a bunch of new metaphors in the new year, trying to change the metaphor around all of those metaphors. Is that going Better or worse than you expected?

Honestly, it's going Better than I expected, but I think we're going to hit a platter because our, our, our ambition really is to change the way people use internet and improve IT. And if we really want to reach out of that early adopter crowd, we have to simplify. But I think one of really exciting things is, uh, the most use text box on a mac is the ur barn in safari.

And so what we've realized is we kind of spread out and we built all of these new surfaces and all of these new nouns and all of these new spaces. But if we focus just in on a few points that people are familiar with and use a lot, like the text box, like the URL bar, there's a lot of a lot of power we can pack in that. And that actually that vergeer al share a lot where no, people don't really want to main in the organize stuff in the file systems anymore. They want to tell the computer what they need, and they want the computer to go get up for them. And so I think you see as pack a lot of the ideas behind some of our parish er features in a much more approaching and familiar interface, which is the community text box that you go to all the time for us to ask for things.

Now you can ask for a lot more. We started this whole conversation by saying you were destroy that an election in losing computers for maybe responsible or not. And the Operating system is where the leverages.

How do you turn all of that into the leverages are seeking is IT. We're not going to show you some websites is IT. We're going to have make a healthier relationship with instagram.

I just pop up a warning. It's like you're on instagram. yeah. How do you actually use the leverage of owning something that feels of the Operating .

system in the same way that your background is a copyright lawyer in forms? A lot of the work that you do. I want to take a IT just to talk a little bit about my origin story, because IT IT relates answer to the question, when I was a senior college, I didn't know what I want to do, and I was a sociology major.

And then I went to lecture by a professor name, Robert putnam m, about his book bowling alone. And after the lecture I went up to, and I prefer apart in what i'd do with my life. I don't know you, so I have no idea. But if you like my book, there is an entrepreneurship, me Scott hybrid, that started a company in new york city called meat up after he read the book, maybe should go work for him. So I want to get a job at meet up.

And my first day of internship, Scott gets up and he says, we're going to turn away from the banks and we're going to turn to each other and kick starter, and we're going to turn away from big box retailers, and we're going to turn to each other on essa. And he went on and on, and I was deeply inspiring. And was that part of me that fell in love with tech and the ideas m and bind IT.

And to me, that shows two things. One, I have always been motivated by people. The other end, and two, scot was totally wrong.

I love him. But I think, honestly, the part of me after the election, that said, I got ta fix something. We ve got to do something. We've got to fix democracy with technology. I am still an optimist.

I still care about people, but I think we now have right size what our role should be, which is instead of saying in that moment, how do we have some tech company with twenty people fix democracy or improve our civic c society, it's just as worthy and ambitious to say. My sister in law, who is a teacher and spends hours every day copy and pasting between different software. E to be a teacher.

Let's get rid of that busy work for her. That is just as the ambitious, and that's just as worried. And so honestly, there is kind of been this personal transformation from early twenties.

The internet is going to fix everything to, hey, let's just make our friends and our family and our lives a little Better everyday. So don't get me wrong, I still have that part of me that is as idealistic and hopeful that the web and the ideas behind the internet can improve these top level ideas. But we are much more interested in almost like the anthropology gc approach to elize day. How do we make IT a little bit and and fine worth in that?

There is a little bit of attention here, right? You described ark is being an Operating system. You d obviously want in some state for application vendors to be talking to arc is an Operating system. And maybe leveraging your capabilities is you talk about any users making life Better, but you live on another Operating system, the applications inside or or whatever all the browser do, where they're going to do.

How do you baLance that role, right? I mean, IT IT feels like there's only one stakeholder whose experience you can actually improve or just and apple might just make IT much harder for you because you are on a mac or microsoft is going to a put edge pop ups all over windows or you figure is gonna track a deal with chrome to use some cutting and gpi that you do not access to like that. There's a lot of dependencies there. How are you bouncing all that?

This is where i'm just a big believer in the web as as as tRicky a moment as IT is in many ways, I believe the web has one is winning and willin. And I think in the web, there are enough parties involved, there are enough incentive where it's not really about the browser company is about betting that the web is an application platform. And the decentralized nature of IT will mean that people will still keep building for the web. And as long people are building applications for the web and center of gravity, especially in this world of A I love or hate IT, is heading even more to the web. I think there's enough incentives in the industry, in the ecosystem to suggest that if we build one user agent for IT, there's really a good work we can do there.

We need to take a quick break will be epic.

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We're back with brothers company CEO josh Miller to talk about how we structured the company and how we plan to make money. I wanted talk what the web in detail, but I think this brings me to the decoder questions. This is a big ambition. How big is a brother er company now? Eighty people and how is that structured?

We have kind of functional teams, design engineering, but we really like to organize and deeply cross functional pods. So we hire people that tend to be much as we like to say, in dearing ways. They come from different backgrounds with different skill sets beyond just whatever their titles.

And then we put them together in these little pods of five people and give them a prompt, like, how can we help make experience of shop fy sellers? How do we make that easier to use their tools every day? And we give him six weeks and say, they go and they try bunch of things and we see what happens.

We do you have a prompt that, do you say, okay, came back. You have an answer. We're going to go find a bunch of shop fy sellers and try to market ark to them specifically or is IT.

We're going to abstract the solution to a bunch of rather use cases in market. The abstract product. It's depends.

but actually it's it's reverse in the order we do is so whenever first hires was a woman named eda and he runs a team now called the membership teams. So what we start with is actually conversations with sharp fy sellers. And we watched you use their computer, we ask them about their problems, that things they do every day.

And we actually tried to abstract solutions for them based on that. So sometimes we focus on individual tools. So we built this, a feature called github life folders, that of yours, software engineer.

And someone needs a code review from you. IT would just automatic pop up and say, hey, nei needs you to review his code. That's something specific. Forget up. And other times we'll take an idea and abstract IT to something that can work everywhere.

So we heard the story from a teacher last week actually, where he said he spends an hour every week taking attendance logs from a google sheet that he has and copying, pasting them into a school district wide cms of some sort for attention records. And IT takes an hour. That makes me so mad, like we can send reusable rockets to space, apparently.

But, you know, we have teacher of spending an hour doing copy pace, copy pace, tap switching. So nate, on our team last week, prototype this mass pace idea where in one fell swoop you can take a bunch of data from one tab and paced IT in a very formatted, structured way into another tab. So there's an example relative to get up where the seed of the idea was.

This teacher with a very specific piece of software SHE has to use for a very specific job. But in IT, is this much a larger relative able idea of, we can all relate to copy and pasting back and forth between tabs and sustenance. So it's a little bit of both. But IT always starts with a person. IT always starts with the people, and IT always starts with going out into the world and trying to understand sometimes it's a family member, sometimes it's a cousin, sometimes it's a stranger, like what are they experiencing on the web every day?

You've got kind of an interesting chAllenge there, right? Because mass pace seems like a pretty abstract. I've got two tabs about two source of data.

I just need to move him over. Maybe chrome will build that feature, maybe they won't. At least you're competing with another browser entirely with something like a github notification.

IT seems like a github might build that future and send you a notification to a mobile APP or send you a notification to whatever web based notification system the is to eventually adopt. How do you think about that, right? Your features. Might I get adopted by the very applications that you're going to support?

If you talk to these application developers, one of their complaints is actually browser vendors are pretty restrictive about what they can do in the browser. So one of our popular features is in our community text box, you can type new notion document, and you can hit, enter and or creating new notion document. Notion loves that.

Notion can't do that in crimea safari because google trying to protect the search at revenue, right? Are there examples of places where we're actually giving developers more access than they were in in other browsers because we're not optimizing for searches? And then there are other examples where there are actually things that you can only do at the browser layer that exists across multiple tabs, right? So if you think about the teacher example, know the things that the developer of google sheet and the obscure, you know, public school district cm s application we need to do to have an integration that's never gonna en, but at the browser layer, because we sit underneath all that, we can actually do those things very easily. So IT obviously depends on the future. But generally speaking, because other browsers are designed to be essentially big search boxes for the search, a business model, there hasn't been as much innovation at the interface layer or the Operating system level of a browser such that application developers, they think they are very excited to about the access that they were able to have and the things we can do across web applications that would be difficult to otherwise.

You really describing the broza as an application player like this is the model for apps going forward. And you're trying pretty start contrast to google, which is searching some stuff and will show you some documents. The web is in a moment of pretty intense tension between these ideas. You mentioned ai, all the AI applications are deployed to the web because they want to skip the APP stores in one way, the other cyp to, for Better or worse, with mostly a web phenomenon, because I don't want to pay APP store taxes. Do you think the web is headed towards being more than application system is opposed to a document storage system?

Of course, what do you think?

I think that I have a lot of feelings about the web is a publishing medium, but I I think the pressures on the web is a publishing medium or not insurance table, but unavoidable and certainly changing the economics of the business there. Where's the pressures of APP stores and mobile phones and particular are potentially devastating. And that's what you see so many applications on the map.

So IT feels like unless someone actively stops IT documents, move off the web and applications will move off the phone. But i'm not a hundred percent. So it's actually happening and you have advantage when i'm cared if you see IT.

Yeah I would say unequipped, putting aside my own feelings about IT, that the web, since we started the company five years ago and the train lines of continued is becoming more and more of an application platform. I think that's undeniable. I think it's very exciting.

I think that opposes some problems in the context of publishing. I also think as imagine there are these words are these freezes application platform. My wife and her job has think he has to do.

I don't think IT is going away that sometimes he needs information and actually frequently needs information. So I think what has changed is, as you know, the origins of the web were a publishing platform. They'll actually closer to tiktok or twitter in many ways than an application platform at the time.

What is changes that mick shift has moved towards more applications. But the idea that is part of your job is part of your personal life. You need to find something out or learn about something that's not going away. So but I think the tree lines .

are towards that is an application platform. But you think that, that mixes shifting, like if I were attack website today, I would almost certainly started a tiktok channel, right? And like show people whatever I was covering.

And I see that is you some of the platform economics, but also a lot of web economics, like the desire to put new information on the web first is fading. Where's the desire to delay applications to the web is rising, yes, and that mix is shifting, yes. And maybe the IT feels like your entire company is a response to that mix shifting, but i'm wondering if you actually see IT day to day and how people .

are using the browser? Yes, absolutely. And in fact, keeping my time thirty three, I grew up on the desktop web. Like to me, that's where I got lost as a child in my curiosities.

And so in fact, it's been a process for me to admit to myself that this thing that I loved about the web and I wanted from the web, if you look out again from a sociology, from a human perspective, if we're not seeing IT as much, I think you said that I also think is true and makes me so mad is, yes, if you are going to start put a piece of information out, you probably should start a tiktok channel. I don't like that, but I think that is true. I think one of the interesting things, though, is if you go back to the origins of the web, is a publishing platform.

What we learned about publishing platforms, and retrospect is IT missed two big things, distribution and discovery, right? We now know that the most powerful part of any publishing platform is discovery, and the web publishing platform didn't have that built in. Google, a hack in many ways for that.

Tiktok, a hack for that. The second thing I didn't have vacation is payments, right? Can you imagine the IOS ecosystem if apple didn't have native payments that were easy and seamless?

I think about what that sun for subscriptions and purchasing apps. Yes, there are lot of chAllenges of a thirty percent taxes, but IT in enable this thriving marketplace. And so if I look at the trajectory, the mic shifts on the web towards applications, there are reasons for us to rush.

People are rushing towards IT. And if I look at the reasons that information are publishing as faded, I think I can really come down to those two missing elements. I wish I knew what you could do about that, because again, that is you know the web is a decentralized protocol. I think you can look at those two factors and and explain a lot. I'm curiously, you agree if you if you have thought about that.

but why I agree on the I agree, the diagnosis, i'm not sure if the here is, but I I asked you that question because, right, if the browsers, the Operating system, you control that well, you could be the apple that introduces a payments players. The web. Famously, mark and jacson thought the web would be powered by micropayments when he did netscape, and he just never occurred, and the crypto arrived. We ended listen to IT pray.

Not the right idea, but the idea is cyclical, right? The idea that will have payments in the web in some way, cyclical. And if you are controlling the browser, modern, if that something you could introduce. To fix the document side model of IT or if you're staying focused on the application.

I would love nothing more than to get involved with that. I mean, because everything we think about the fundamental economics of browsers and and the webb itself, which is so dependent on ads, and I think often these conversations are binary, they're bad or good. That's not what i'm saying.

But I think there's so much more potential in the ways that browsers and publishers to the web and applications to the web could monitise if payments were building. I think it's extremely it's a great example of somewhere where it's sort of a win, win. If you make payments easier, the individuals happy because it's easier to make payments, you have to plot your credit card.

The merchants happy because, you know, greece, the wheel, it's easier have transactions. And whoever is connecting the two is making money as well. So I find payments fascinating.

I think you could do so much good for the web. The flip side of believing in the web as we are a mino, we're barely a mino. And so one of the interesting tensions we feel in this conversation, i'm sure to talk about our searches.

We've got ideas. We're excited. But we're not at chrome scale. We're not it's a furry scale. So if we ever have the privilege of getting to a place where our voice can move the ecosystem in some way, I think adding payments natively to the browser and that layer of the stack would do wonders for the ecosystem. And I hope that we or someone gets there because I think I think would be fantastic.

Yeah, how does brows er company make money today?

We don't currently charged for anything um but we as part of this kind of two point, no product that's coming out soon. We're going to be charging individuals and businesses for a plan that does more of your busy work for you than that kind of defauts plan. So don't have anything concrete to .

announce scription subsumption .

brothers where .

we're going potentially mean it's it's a when you say plan that usually means requiring .

revenue rella. So honest answer is we don't have the specific details yet, but what we are sure of is we want an exchange of value, which is we do your busy work for you. We save you time, we save you clicks, we help you for your day. Either you or your employer pays us, whether not that is through a subscription model or usage based or some sort of toga system is is, is something we're still figuring out. And we're really excited about the inhibition to say, hey, can you truly save that much time for someone that either them or their boss would fork over money for IT?

What are the prison cons of the different choices?

A very long conversation, but I think I subscription is easier in many ways. It's more familiar, but I really like about something closer to usage. Base pricing is that it's I really wanted direct exchange of value, right? I wanted to feel much the more you use IT, the more you pay us because the more value were delivering to you.

Some tRicky things that think about in terms of you also want people to really develop a habit with your product because they have all this initial from commencer ing. You don't want to push people away from using IT more and more, but i'm confident or earliest hopeful for that we can get around that with we're always gonna a free plan. We hope to put as much in the free plan as possible. But ah it's a tRicky one.

Yeah other co we've tn a lot of trouble on the show suggesting that they will make something that was previously free subjection product to hesitation.

There's nothing in the product today that we are going to charge people for. So what really excited in the next evolution is how can we take the idea behind this automatic picture and picture player automatically cleaning up and managing your tabs for you?

Can we take that to the extreme and do more and more busy work for you, such that, that additional time savings, that additional work we take off your plate, that additional tedious, but not in this stuff that you have to do and you no longer have to do. You can imagine some of that being stuff that we charge for. This is a danger of doing this in person because I was not supposed to talk about this, but you lose me up a little. I have to get in trouble for that.

Bring people to the office. Now I want to stick on IT a little bit longer. So you ve got products today. You ve arch search in the arch presser. Will arch search be paid on the phone?

Uh, that is not currently the plan.

Arc search when you and and it's worth noting.

we really think of art is the companion APP to the desktop products. So we definitely have a chAllen with words and branding as a theme i'm taking in this conversation. But the attention of our search IT is the mobile browser to the desktop browser.

Sure, our search is an AI products. I want to talk about that a little bit. But the economics a products are simple, right? Someone does a search in our search.

You have to go talk to a club, provider and inference and come back that cost you money. If you intend to keep IT free. How much money can you spend before you have to change your money?

Uh, yeah. So our intention is that the paid offering, which again, we will apply on mobile to not the art search of the U. C. today. But the additional functionality on top of IT is what will subsidize the kind of free version for for folks.

The goal is you make usual three versions of people, convert to the the paid.

yeah. What people do in art today doesn't actually cost us all that much money. And our ambition is to make this free for as many people as possible as we get into more A I inference intensive task for people that take off more and more busy work. That's where both I think we want to be a sustainable business that exists for a long time. It's about time, but also I think the cost get more prohibitive.

You are obviously competing with google. Google loves to give things away for free. That search add revenue is, uh, cash machine for them. How do you think about competing against the competition that will undercut U N. Price in the most ruthlessly ly possible, which is giving .

IT away for free, in some sense, terrifying. We have absolutely, on paper, no advantage. They have more money. They have more people. They have more.

All of the things, I think, over time as we've built more and more features and forgotten question more and more, I think what we're realizing is if we're truly gone to build the successor to the browser, what comes after IT, i'm avoided branding. Its its branded too many things. That is really a holistic rethinking of our interface to the internet.

I think that in the care in the detail that goes into that, it's not as simples poppin on an AI side bar chat onto chrome and the examples of other braza vendors that have clearly taken ideas for us and and done their own versions of IT and hasn't goten the way of our growth through success so far. So I think if you look at the top down perspective, how are we going to be google or apple or microsoft? It's tRicky to give you an an answer that is convincing.

I think the lived experience so far as we keep our heads down, we optimize for building something that people love and truly help them in that a day to day. And we think about this from a blank page perspective of not what did browsers do yesterday, but how can we build a cohesive day on the internet that saves you time and does your busy work for you. I think, IT, it'll be difficult for the other vendors to just bolt that onto their existing products.

Now at some scale, might they do what happen to slack with teams? Of course, we're in a capitalistic society that will happen. I think there is the room for us to run if we are focused and we are fast and we really do what we're best at. Um but time will tell there's .

the crime of there's also the safar of IT, right? Apple really wants people to use this any rate applications, particularly on mobile. Do you find the china ship a new braza? Uh, an iphone is a lost cause. Do you think that, that is a market you can actually get into? Or is that just close off to?

yes. So I think that fast anything about safari and general is safari, and we have this on on good sources, is the most used application in the apple ecosystem. More time is spent in safari I than any other application. But if you go look at the size of the team and the things they're working on there, there is a mismatch there, right? Because apple doesn't want the center of gravity to move towards the web on desktop.

On mobile is more difficult because the browser plays a different role, right? On desktop IT is increasingly the application environment, and on mobile is a place we go to quickly look something up, get some information really quickly, quickly read article. And there are some things that apple does or doesn't do that makes them more difficult.

They don't let you bring key chain passwords over. It's more difficult to check out. And so um there are some structural chAllenges are created by apple on iphones that make IT more difficult.

But I say the bigger thing is the role of the browse around your phone is it's almost a different and what IT is on desktop, and that's the thing that we think about the most. But I think as we've seen with arc search, there is a desire if you build something truly new for people to change. And it's just a question of what what is the ceiling there are a mobile versus this time.

this ringing ing. To the other declare question, you have a lot of chAllenges. You've got a huge proser competence that gives that way, is proud for free.

You've got Operating systems that will and will not let you do certain things. Um you've got the changing nature of the brother. If you ve got pricing, if they got out, how do you make decisions? What's your framework?

I know you going to ask this question because you always asked this question. I wish I had a framework. We think of our work as optimizing for feeling and instinct. I don't know. This is A A response to the technology industry that I was brought up in where you're supposed to be neutral and unopinionated and have frameworks.

But our approaches, what are we trying to express you, what feels right to us? What do we want do for ourselves and our parents and our siblings and people that we care deeply about? And so generally, of course, we have data science team.

We look at the data. We we reason in all of the ways that we should. But I think at the end of the day, big decision to make. I'd say it's more of a personal expression and a personal reflection of our hopes, wishes and desires for our work than IT .

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done when IT really matters.

Welcome back. I'm talking with the browser company CEO, josh Miller, about competing with google and what A I is doing to both search and the open web. One of the comparisons you made was to google.

So it's not just as easy as building on a and A I chat box to the inside of the browser. I could be pretty reductive. And I can say you've just describe google shipping its our chart right there is a chrome pm, there is a german I pm.

They're just be next to each other, right? I turn in a grade the product that sounds like you're betting on google not figuring IT out to some extent right there. The google product culture will ship and kill things in the way the google product culture does, and you will never make the turn towards integrating the air products. You can feel everyone about that, that i'm sure the people could feel some way about that, that that is, is that way you're thinking that they're big and slow and you can actually just be more simple.

It's worth noting, I think the people at this company are very smart, yes, and very well. And not just saying that is what i'm supposed to say, I truly believe that we hire darin Fisher, who started chrome and ran crime for sixteen years. He worked at the brazil company. It's more about, I think, the incentive structure, right? I like to think a lot about incentives as one of things I thought I ish I thought about more earlier my career.

And there's a story that darn told me that really stuck with me, which is chrome had this idea that when you go to the new tab page, one of the most popular surfaces in any piece software you use, if they show you an icon for the web page that you go to a lot, you might be to notice IT much more quickly. Oh, what's the twitter? I can't.

I'll click on twitter first is just a screen shot of the web page. And they shipped that. And overnight, google searched revenue drop by five percent, and they weren't sure why, right? IT was this big freak out? Now that resolved in the way that I did. But that is the story thing that you have to contend with.

If you people were no longer doing navigational searches for twitter.

yeah because they don't want you to go to twitter, they want to go to search now not the chrome team doesn't. The chrome team wants you to get twitter as as you can. But at a company like google in this moment, in the public markets, in in this moment of AI, even more, there are these incentive with the search add model and the way that chrome in the search go system work so far that are just a huge it's inertia.

So it's not just the shipping the world chart that having worked at facebook, there are real chAllenges there. But I think on top of that, there is the incentive structure of how the company makes money and has for a long time. And then there is also the risk.

I mean, if you think about IT, if we start with a blank page, if you give me the most generous reading, everything I said, IT may not work. And if IT does, we only needed to work for one hundred million people. If we do something gradually different and we find one hundred million people to love what we do, that is a raging success for google.

That's an other failure. And that's if IT goes right, you know. So I think there's also the risk aversion to the scale they need to hit, the number of people that needs to work for to be worthy. Putting aside of the product risk that comes with doing something truly new.

Google, in a state of what I would call regulator's scrutiny, they just lost the nature case against and its department of justice that so there is illegal, not the insertion. And in certain part, it's add business. The ad tech part of its business is going to an nats trial very shortly.

Here is part of the surge trial. We found out that google is paying apple twenty billion dollars here to make google but default search engine, the stuff feels like it's coming apart, right? There are the big moment. There are opportunities here, which are those opportunities is most right for the browser companies. And how are you going to attack them candidly?

The way I think about IT is there's more pressure on them not to do anti competitive practices or things that can be perceived that way. And so I think there are a lot of subbed things that these players do. They make IT harder for an upstart like us to compete. So I would say it's less a specific decision that these are all big in their own right. And more generally, there are eyes on these companies not to do things that are monopolists or perceived to be a monopolistic and that culture and climate, I think that is advantages to people like us dealing the .

department justice should go break up. Google, yes. How would you break up? google?

Come on.

like you're a layer that is way that is there's an obvious oba answer here, which like split out chrome, which has been floated. Do you think you would have a Better chance against the independent crime company?

I am not a lawyer.

I have no idea, but what I never seen competitively, if good, if che did not have the pressure of google search, right, you can put in the twitter icon or whatever application icon without hurting the search revenue. Do you think you'd have a Better shot at competing with an independent?

Her honesty, hard to say. I'm not trying to be a vassy.

I honestly, I don't know. Do you think that the deals google were making to make search default in different places if they came to you and said will pay you twenty billion dollars year to said google searches, that the falls mark, which would take money .

twenty billion dollars, was an unfair number to pick, but .

five doors dollars 4， maybe this comes back.

Maybe I, maybe I should have a framework for optimizing for the self, but of the end, the day, I just want my day .

and I go to a hundred dollars.

I just at the end of day day, I want my quality of life on the internet to be much.

Default search aren't no. And you what IT is very defauts.

The default currently is google.

If you had to make a phone call, man, that of the money is on the table.

that mayor may .

not change to the default or the money .

the default OK. We are not, we are not going to if we take money for the default search engine, and ultimately our customer are search engines and advertisers. And that is conflicting to why we started the company, what we set out to do.

However, I do think one of the things that is very exciting about this moment in A I along side of the chAllenging things is AI has this ability to route us different places more intelligently and take us more directly to places we want to go that are not always google and often times it's never google. And so we're gonna replace the default search engine, but not with another search engine. That that one example I like to think of is I just moved to a new place in bricklin and I was trying to decide if we should buy homes pot.

But and I love to dance around that the house, and we didn't have a speaker, I wanted type in the verge hometown t review, if I hit enter, that takes me to google in our two point, our product. If you hit enter, they'll just take me to the virtuous home pod review. So there are things that we can do in this moment that weren't possible before that I think makes google vulnerable both in surge and browsers that that that means this question of defauts search engine is no longer just going to be google versus being and who's going to pay you IT can be let's take you to the exact rate place based on what you're looking for.

Do you building some a search like functionality you again.

IT makes entire. But the way we think about this is what if things you need to do everyday, there are these new technologies that make IT more possible to blur r the lines between what is a browser, a search engine, and into something that more holistically and do and help someone do something. And yes, as part of that, when you type in the most popular text on your computer, we can now take you and route you to lots of different places that often times are much more direct than on the nose for what you want. And don't just fund you into the gu ego system because that's how it's always worked and because that's .

what their business model is. Yeah one of the things we've seen a lot with A I N general you they talk about and now is the idea of that textbook. And tea is actually the easy interface for your computer.

You're going to just tell the computer what you want. The computer is going to go often. Do IT. If you have the entire web behind you, you can do a lot of things, especially if you can take actions on web applications. Yes, are you trying to build that kind of automation layer where you say, hey, just like go to my calendar and bring all the dates out and put him over here?

Yes, again, you're getting in the mood where i'm sharing more than I should, but we have this internal prototype I tried last a week where my son had his first day to school today. They sent us a PDF, which I opened in my browser with all the different dates for holidays and what not. And I could say in one gear, add all of these to my calendar and I would do that.

And so what we're doing is building the layer underneath all the applications to understand what is going on in your life. What are you looking at right now? What have you ve been working on previously and the connective tissue between all of the applications and tabs that you use and rely on.

And on top of that, we can take a lot of busy work like that off of your plate much more easily. Yeah and sometimes that i'll come through community and i'll ask IT and other times i'm on apple looking in a home pod, we might say, hey, you really like the verge. You read the virgil lot here is a home pod review. So i'm using the text box as, yes, the most popular interface. But I think that I should feel like your entire experience on the web is more personalized and more proactive to you, not just when you explicit ask for something.

This idea that a robots going to go cooking around the web for you is very popular. We've seen a number of startups say they can do IT. I know they're actually doing IT, but they say they gonna take A I do IT.

Then there's just a set of follow on problems to this rate. The browser has to see everything in all of the websites are to see my data and to read the data to interpret IT, presumably using an aee system in a cloud somewhere. IT has to click on things for me without getting anything wrong. And then IT has to not a luCindy, that's a lot of steps. How do you protect people's data and actually hit the level of essentially a hundred percent reliability that people are going to demand from products of us?

And the first thing is we really think about right sizing AI, right? There's a lot of discourse about A I right now, and IT tends to be of the Martini sipping version where we're going to replace teachers and doctors and there's going be the super intelligence being. And that's, in our opinion, not the right way to think about the stuff.

And I think the equivalent and there is a relates the clicking is you're going to tell the computer what you want to do and it's just gonna to do a biggie things for you with entrepreneurs acy today. That's not possible. That's not how it's gonna.

But what is possible is in these small ways, again, saying, added to my calendar, we can do that, and we can do that with close to one hundred percent reliability. Our approach is as much as possible, which is increasingly very possible, especially on high and mack books. Doing that on device data does not leave your device.

It's all done locally. And when IT can be done locally, making sure that the person says, hey, i'm OK with that trade off of sending the contents of this PDF to A L M. Provider in order to add to my calendar and let them make that decision.

But I think the large point here is what we are not saying is the robots are going to do all of your work for you. That is not our belief. But what I can do is IT can I can save people from a lot of the Mandana that relates to futzing around with boxes on the internet all day?

yeah. Do you think that is a separate set of use cases from what arc searches doing?

absolutely. In fact, arc search was really a first prototype. There are so many things that I wish we'd done differently and I we've now sense, learn, but really it's just that was the first experiment of this larger idea of us playing with this new play, which is okay.

We can click on things for you. We can read things for you while we definitely can't the writing really bad oh but interesting. We can transform one type of data format into another type da format. Just feeling at the edges of what you can do today.

And um as part of that one small thing that you do is you want to find out a quick answer to some you know i've got a skirt state the other day and the guide the butch, is like you should make to my chery us. I don't I make to my cherise us sometimes I want to know that a lot more frequently. There's something for my job and my live hood, where I ve got to go click unch of buttons in the same order every single time. I think we're much more excited about doing that sort of busy work for you because can do that's what people complain about the most when we interview them about their jobs. Yes.

that I want to make you mean try sauce is a great example. What our search will do is logo. Read a bunch of web pages, it'll summarize them. It'll show you the answer with some links. That is a very controversial move across the web right now.

When I say there's lot of pressure on the web as a document or consumption medium, that's the pressure right in particular, bunch AI companies are scraping the how of the web remix in the web and the people who actually made the information are getting nothing for IT. Our searches is right in the middle. That right.

That is the thing you are doing. Do you think that that is a sustainable thing to do? no.

And I think this is a really complicated one. So I want to try to share yeah, both sides. And let's take a head on that part of the reason i'm here from the perspective of an individual.

I want the chemically recipe. I show up to the website. I got seventeen tractors tracking me. All of a sudden I got a newsletter pop up saying you wants to subscribe our newsletter. I weight through five paragraphs about the the authors' grandmother in the history of virtue tary recipe.

And all the way at the bottom is the recipe that doesn't feel good to the individual. IT feels like we can do Better. And IT feels like for pretty much everyone that uses the web, a much Better thing would be, I wonder, the ingredients and the recipe steps get IT you as quickly as possible.

And on the other side, IT breaks the model of the web historically. Now I think we are not going around pay walls. We are not training our models. A lot of the stuff that I think is more problematic is not anything that we do.

But I do think it's fair to say that those trickeries, as much as I feel like they're unfair to me as an individual, are part of how that recipe site that makes money, right? And the fact that they show ads, which if we are reading the sites on your behalf, you're not saying IT breaks that model in some way. And so this is a moment where i'm an optimist.

I think it's a very exciting moment for publishers and media companies because for the first time, so much of this is dictated by google and the way that chrome and search has worked for so long. And so I think sometimes is got to change. I think publishers got to get paid. I wish I had an easy answer for you, but I definitely don't think it's sustainable. And even if I also think for the individual.

we got to do Better as well. It's september. In february, my friend casey and wrote about arc search. He said he felt in a rare emotion and quote a kind of revulsion at the apps miro existence in what IT pretends because it's taking the value from the people who had the rescue outside. And I could do a full hour on why there's a story at the top of every rescue of site like that is the way that the money is made.

its incentives of the system.

and they have to make. You can't solar recipes for a variety reasons. So you ve got to sell something else, sell added tory around their space.

Do you understand why casey felt the revulsion? I know we talk to you for that piece. yes. And he the quote he talked to you and he the quote is Miller had not put much thought into the second order implications of a world where search queries no longer result in outbound clicks. That was february in september.

Have you thought about that sense? Yes, actually, as recently as last week, I I had a conversation with David at the verge and he gave me, I thought we were doing a good job of citations. He read me the right act on the fact that we weren't.

And in the APP today, we have citations, even more probably than I thought that was the most prominent APP out there that shows what we read. Put him at the top, you can click them easily. We're also having a bunch of conversations with media companies right now.

I at the end of the day, I think media companies need to get paid and publishers need to get paid. And I think the truth is, as you know, the scale of that will not mean that IT works for everybody, but we are trying our best behind the scenes an outfront to be Better here. What candidly, one of the chAllenges we have is we don't have the scale of other players in the space.

So if we show up at of media companies, website says, say, hey, let's let's figure something thing out here. Let's figure out how we can pay you. We don't always get the same receptivity as what I sum other companies do.

But i'm curious what you think about the the OpenAI a model for this because part of we're onna seeing this soul from a far. But I think what I come back to is i've been on the board of patria an for five years, and I think you know Better than anyone. I don't think the old model was working for anyone even before of the A I stuff.

I think you make a great point that accelerates IT and IT hurts IT, but I think the old model wasn't working. And what I do think this new technology provides is a way for all of us to rethink everything from the products themselves, the media products, the software products all the way to the business models. And i'm curious for vox how you thought about that and and how you think about in the context of of OpenAI and and these .

publishers that are doing that. Happily, my role in user must to spend money. I don't make any money. It's it's a real problem for the old company. We've had nick thomson talk about his deal from the atlantic on the show.

His view is we need to get this money in opening eyes, offering us a bunch of stuff, exchange this money, including tokens and credits, to use their systems to build me products. What I see, and maybe i'll work out, but what I see is we are absolutely haining the device. The web is a publishing platform because we are making IT easier and easier and easier to extract value without any payment or compensation going in the other direction.

And eventually, all those people are just going to say, well, at least there's a crazy funding tiktok, at least there's youtube payments, at least there's other platforms with some built in way to compensate me for my work where's on the way everyone just takes everything away, big publisher's lotion, right? Or saying, well, at least step on this exists. We'll just take that money.

I know that's good or bad, but the theme of this conversation is the web is increasingly in application platform. We can tell her the browser to IT being an application platform. And over here, the part where people browse the web for information, maybe we can extract here from that and that will go away. Or maybe i'll just be a handful of preferred providers that opening I pace or per proxy pays or u pay, but that open web, the part where there's just information, the way for people to click round and look at that, that seems like there's nothing here that indicates you can make a resurgence. The other thing .

too is we talk about the web publishing like it's one big category. But for example, if you go to A A local restaurant and in my new daybook hood and they have a reservation booking tool, i'm sure there totally fine with the idea that an AI system might come around and make a reservation more easily for people, right? So that once easy.

And then I really believe what you or as A. Inset on that podcast about this idea of a flight to quality. I've never listened or engaged with the verge more. And I predict that that across mediums, tiktok podcast, I think that will only continue.

And and my hunches is that things like browse for me or OpenAI or perplexity, that's not going to be replace the home pod review that I rely on before making a purchase. I'm very bullish ed on that. I'm curious if you're not, but I I am very bullish ed on that. There is this middle teer of content and content providers that we might call quick facts or more commodity type content where candidly, as you know, most of those or some large percentage of those are content farms or their contractors, they're just turning stuff out or copping stuff or A I generate.

I think it's that middle layer, that middle layer of I want to know what selvey on bunk tastes like because I don't know anything about wine, but I met the wine store that to me, the tRicky one, I think the verge is good and going to be Better because no. But I truly, truly believe that. And so I think in many ways cases revulsion comment obviously that that hurts and IT hits especially after speaking with them. I think this is fair in many ways, but I think IT IT really hits on one percentage of the content that um I know i'm optimistic for what will happen to media at that end of the spectrum um but maybe that's ignorance. And but again, i'm i'm curious from the verge, my assumption is this decoder podcast, I would bet that the ad slots are sold out for the rest of the year, I think .

so that's suite truly is that. And but like I look at the platforms and I have the extraordinary privilege of getting to say that i'm a precious journalist and I have no idea what happening to heads and I won't read them yeah and we still get to sit in fancy studio. Yeah, this is a whole company yeah, and the platform, the economics of social platforms are not great for that.

Yeah, you have individual creators who cannot support a giant company who are in bed with the companies they cover and not even naming naming and are just broadly, they do the brand deals, they read the ads. They mix the commerce, the the content in a way that journalists do not do or should not do. no. And I said, well, the webs supported the other model for a minute.

Yeah and now maybe all the maybe the flight to quality is much payless ls, right? And what we're going to be left with a bunch free content on platform that is corrupted in some way by the commercial ation of the work because the return high and somewhere in there is what we're just not that to happen because the web is an application platform and not a document platform. And we we never figured out how to actually sustainably distribute this information in a way that works. Everyone and IT feels like, yeah, there's a lot of opportunities to make the the web of Better application platform, but IT feels like you turn that all the way. You do end up with a bunch of weird ads on tiktok and a bunch of .

paying walls on the web. Yeah, I again, and maybe i'm just too much of an optimist, but I think that it's gonna. It's gonna take creativity and dreaming on both sides.

I think from a media standpoint, tell me if you think this is wrong. I think a lot of media organizations made the mistake may be a decade ago of trusting the platforms and in many ways, outsourcing their product development. And I don't think media companies are going make that mistake again.

And I think there are many like the verge that are innovating on what their product is. And they're innovating on what their product is in a moment where they are, there is actually leverage to go after these. I I can't overstate not to you but to your audience how stuck the web has been. And all these things have been for decades because google control at all. And for the first time, there is a decade there is this technology, this player, that gives a window to mess that up at a moment where you you .

think that technology.

I will be clear, yes, in a moment where you all have been burned as media companies by outsourcing your product, facebook and code, hey, trust us. Just give us your content, we will pay you. You it'll be great.

You're not can make that mistake again. You have played to play with you are innovating on product. And then think on our side.

I knew coming on this podcast, you are going to asked these questions, and I knew I wasn't going to have a answer. But I think this is important for the same reason. I think it's important to pick up David call, hear him kindly, yell at me and make changes based on IT.

And it's why we show up and media companies office say, hey, let's let's collaborate on something here. Let's figure out away where we pay you or it's gonna take experimental. It's gonna collaboration on both sides.

And I think that elaboration bit is the hardest bit because there are a bit of what casey said that I found deeply unfair and they're bit of IT that I found fair. But I know where he's coming from because it's the same part of me that was burned as a twenty year old by these promises of text gna change everything. And so I think we have the moment in history which we should not take for granted.

We have the plates to, we have the lessons from the past, and now we just got a dream bit and come together in some way. Maybe this is the part of me that makes decisions through feelings, and this is naive. And I, but I truly, truly think something good is going to come out of this.

But I think we're going to mess some things up. Everyone's going to mess some things up. And we just got we got to be open about IT and talk about IT. And I think there is this generation of entrepreneur, both in the media space and in the product space, where the technology space that has seen again, the models that came before IT and what went wrong there and is encouraged to come on a potato le. Even if it's although he is going to be a effortless.

that is, to get an optimistic place to end IT, someone asked one more question, okay, the idea of that, the web l coming to bounce the web l indoors. I am, I want to believe I am a web person. That heart, I continued to run a website. And twenty twenty four, that is just a personal decision that i've made. What is the chance that the web actually turns all the way to an application platform that that dominates the next .

generation of the web? Oh, I think very low. Yeah, I think very low. I will need media training for you after this is, as someone that is full of ideas and prototypes, we will have an experimental culture.

There's no, I want to do more than blurred out all of these ideas for what I turned IT back. I think I need to learn my lesson of the folks that came before me and say, I don't know the answer yet. IT is hard to imagine looking at the stated things today as we've spoken about.

But I think there is some innovation on the product side, both from the media side and the technology side, that can turn those tides because I think again, from the patron perspective, everyone is burned. Everyone is overwhelmed. They are burnt out.

IT is just not sustainable. And I think out of that will come a uh, general cracked v that can bring him back. And I think the truth of these other historical platforms is they have these taxes and they have these anti competitive behavior is of these things that I think we will work against them.

And the web has a lot going for IT. So if if it's okay, can I ask you one question short? A birdie told me that of your verge casts house.

David piers uses ark, alex grand uses arc. Nei patel does not use arc. Why don't you use arc? And what can we do Better?

I started using arc in preparation for this. This episode. There's how use more. I mean, I think I unlike my vercheres co hosts, I am radiant to actually depend on software. I I think there is a danger in being dependent on software or workflow uh and maybe as because i've had a law software and when let's go away that i'm a very manual brute force kind of person in the idea that i'll give up some part of my workflow or my process to a tool has always scared me but i'll keep trying. Which which prejudice um I use IT by obviously a chrome safari and now .

i'm using ah you can use crop. We have to cover the way that you're still on crop.

We are a google dox company. We are a riverside company OK. I more than that.

I hope out of this, I hope there are some sort of collaboration we can do. Jim, bank of ever, your CEO is your leg. Let's do stuff.

They going to get to be great. I promise you that the other side.

I have to make .

the introduction OK some things. thanks. I like to thank josh Miller for joining decoder today, and thank you for listening. I hope you enjoy y IT.

Feel like to let us know what you thought about the subsoil, anything all where you can help threats and cast a lady. We also a tiktok check out its attitude pot. It's a lot of fun.

You like to koto play, share your friends and subscribe over your podcast. Decoder reproduction of the verge part of the box me pocket network. Our producers are k cox mix, dat editors called right, or supervising producers in James. The decoder music is very big mater thunder we will see next time.

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