Why GM ditched CarPlay, with software boss Baris Cetinok
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when IT really matters.

And welcome to decoder. I mean, patel, editor in chief of the virgin decoder, is my show, but big ideas and other problems. Today i'm talking with barish chat knock, who has one of the longest titles of any person who has ever been and coder.

He is officially general motor senior vice president, software services, product management, program management in design. That's lot words, but they all mean that barrier is in charge of all the software and all the cars the G. M. makes. This is a lot of cars. And if you've been following any of the drama in the world of car software, you also know that means barish is the guy who has to defend games, decision to drop apple car play in android auto for most of its cars.

especially evs.

Now barrs didn't actually make that decision, which gm announced in early twenty twenty three. He only joined the company about a year ago after a stint running services at apple, including apple pay. But it's now his job to make sure that gm software platform, which is called ultimate, is so good that people won't miss Carol.

That is a tall order. Every time we do at a quoter episode with a car person, we talk about car play, and then we get an avlon ch of emails from people who say they will never buy a car without IT. See, we really do read all the emails barish es.

Main argument for ditching these smartphone projection systems is that gm needs more control over the user experience inside of the car in order to build some of the features and services he has on the roman. The handing over the displays of the car to apple and google simply won't allow G. M.

To innovate faster, so the company has to build the own software. This is a familiar argument and a familiar approach, but it's something we mostly hear from newer car companies. Revie C O R J.

Scri said the same thing when he was on the code just a few months ago, but is very different coming from a legacy automaker like G, M, which doesn't have the luxury of starting from scratch and actually has to transition away from letting a huge ecosystem of suppliers write their own software for various parts of the car. So I really wanted to know how barrier is rethinking gms approached to software and the teams to build IT. And I most especially wanted to know how he plans to ship and maintain all of that software across gms, many individual brands and models.

Right now, ultimate is based on something called google glin, which, if he used that, kind of feels like having a giant android tablet in the car. And that means burch has to deal with all of the problems, or shipping millions of giant android tablet, making sure they get software and security updates and making sure they stay relevant even as the demands of users and software developers increase. This is a big task.

I've had versions of this conversation with the C. E. O of car companies before in the code, but barriers is in charge of building this stuff.

And we got really into the weeds of product and program manager here. And in maybe the biggest chAllenge role, I asked him, if anyone can actually explain all of google's various car platforms. You will hear the answer. OK bears, chat, knock, gms, S, V, P of software and services, bunch of our stuff, 队长。

Barish chat knock, welcome to the coder.

I'm delighted to be here as a long time listener and first time contributor. What a delight.

I am very excited to talk to you. There's a lot to talk about. There's a lot going on with cars.

There's a lot with gm, specifically the software which you oversee. You were at apple for a while. You actually just mentioned to me that we met at the apple pay launch.

That's what you worked on an apple. You came to G M. A Better year ago, just a little over a year ago.

And then as of june, you have an incredible title of G M. I'm not really the whole thing because I went to explain to me what that means. U, R, G, M, senior vice president, software and services, product management, program management in design. What does that all mean?

The hypotheses around our organization structure is that we are a functioning of oriented organization, and we are somewhat emulating how modern technology, especially software, during technology firms are structured, which is usually we start with a group of people who are in the product side of the house.

These are the people who think about the what, what should we build and then also do why? Why should we build IT? And their job is to be the voice of the customer inside the company.

They listen to the customer. They listen to journalists. They listen to the right guy. They do research themselves, reach research and develop thesis, and eventually hypothesis around would would be great.

Would IT be, wouldn't IT be amazingly interesting to do? X, that's the what? And y part, that's what product managers do.

Then you need to think about the how, and that's when design and engineering comes into the mix. Because these are the, I like this disney term called imagine ers. These are the people who imagine an engineer things and make those real.

You cannot chip powerpoint intact a spread cheese and fig my files. You need to turn this into real code, real beautiful design. Hence that engineering plus design and then program managers are the people who keep us honest on time, on schedule, on budget and reminds us we need to make some decisions in a timely manner.

They're like the costs of a cruel team. They are the ones who keeping the riddle going faster, slow down, pay attention more. Here, here.

I don't know about you what. I'm a huge sports fan. IT is a team sport, and you can design the top players of the starting five of a basketball team.

They each have their role. They know how to do for each other. They know how to pass the. But the goal is actually just having a winning team .

and build awesome product. You've open the door to an entire hour along conversation about program managers. For this product managers. I won't talk you about a lot of other things, but we do have a lot of product managers who listen to the show. We have lot of people who build products. What in your mind is the real difference between a product manager and a program manager? Because that's not to split that every company has.

I get this question asked internally and do I I always say to people, and i've been very fortunate, I always tell you about right on right place, hard work meets a few moments in my life. I worked at microsoft in the nineties and early two thousands. Then I was part of the A D V S.

Group when I was just getting started, amazon. Then I spent a decade at apple wanting that coming. Involve these companies is a strong program management culture meets a strong product management culture.

Product is the group that is really expected to synthesize all those inputs we talked about and put out a hypothesis and say, if you're programs or for super cruise, you based the articulate, wouldn't IT be amazing. IT started with simple sentences like this. It's not some dollar sign.

It's not some ethnographic cities says, wouldn't IT be amazing with technology when you're driving warriors fan? Full disclosure, I dry from south of the city to chase after twice a week. Ninety percent of my biology is on two eighty, and ninety plus percent of my time is on two eighty.

Wouldn't IT be amazing during that period, I can be less stressed. I can do other things because it's can potentially automate IT. Well, that's the initial expression of the hypothesis that you, of course it's, is to say this time things could be size, or you want to make a reality, then engineers come in, but the program manager to say, I love your vision.

But now we need to divide this up into bytes, chunks, into real milestones, demonstrated milestones, so you can, along the way, truly demonstrate progress towards a real outcome in a date. Some companies have that done beat in a var pretty ta away every september. You must release a new phone IT sets that entirely and and everybody works.

So it's that does are the program manager who would do that? The same thing applies here, right? When we set out to build an amazing car like two thousand and five blazer EV, you have vehicle program managers, software program managers coming together, and all these thousands of parks come together by the thousands and build such a complex and beautiful machine called the car.

That's why you need also a strong program management culture to bring IT all together and package and shipped. So we got these two, actually four, five players playing together. It's almost impossible to build amazing products and ship them on time.

I want ask one more question on this. I'm trying not to get myself side tracking the how curiously about this across the industry. Ah you were at apple.

Apple is sort of famous for not having traditional P M. So I product marketing managers who are outbound to the customer that's very different in a bunch of other companies. Google, meta, what have you how do you think about that?

A gm because you're not really marketing the software, right? You're marketing a car. And then gm has multiple brands with multiple expressions of the software and the car platforms. That seems a very chAllenging kind of .

job description. Yeah, I think have a good observation. I call that apple tries to find this unicorns who are good at product management and also has always an I in how to do great storytelling.

So I worked for gentleman named jaws. And after wards gennifer bai, they are the consumer product leaders who starts with the custom value proposition and turn IT into a product can eventually shift IT. So in that sense, titles aside, good product man just always start with a customer backwards story.

But you need to have A M story in mind. Some companies like amazon asked their parking manager to write fake press releases, literally says, what would you like the press release to read, like if your product was being announced. So product manager ers actually do end up collaborating very closely with marketers in companies because they are the stewards of the product.

They know the facts and the spirit of the product. So in a company like general motors, we are actually very similar to similarities. Other companies we are talking about, we are a hardware, software and services company.

We built beautifully industrial design t vehicles. Amazing engines be at electrical proportion or internal combustion, amazing interior styling, plus software and plus a service like on start. It's been around now twenty five plus years bring into one product.

So therefore, when you have this type of different domains and product knowledge, IT is important to come together because, for example, I have two cars right now. I yet to drive fun cars every six months. I yet to drive something different.

One of my cars is a hammer E V pick up truck and the other one is could not be on the other end of the street. Um it's not at least twenty twenty five, twenty five the black wing and it's a six speed manual transmission. These two cars have amazingly different capabilities, amazingly different software stacks in capability stacks and how he comes together.

What is the same group of software people who are actually thinking about what IT takes to create a performance car, also what IT takes to create an amazing hard core off road E V vehicle like homer E V pickup track. So there is a way to create this type of expertise and collaborate, and that's why we're trying to achieve here. And doing IT, I think doing very well. I think in the last year, we have good moments of of uh examples. So we came together first.

So well done in the black one. I believe it's the last one they're going to make .

right and very jealous of this. Actually, I don't know the answer to that, but i'll have to say it's an amazingly foner OK .

very job I was in this if didn't if didn't have one corvet in there as we mad, but a blackened as a reasonable subsidy for a corvet. Actually that's sucker that that's a good that's a good framework for a bunch of questions I have here. I talk to a lot of people in the car industry.

As you know, you're listening the show and there's a general sense that we are undergoing what amounts to a platform change in the industry from from ice vehicles to EV vehicles. And that creates the opportunity to rethink a bunch of experiences inside the car. And I would say this is more or less conventional wisdom.

People buy an E, V. They think the whole cars can can be different. This is an opportunity to actually make things different, whereas you go from one gas card or other gas.

So the whole things different that might be, might be unexpectedly strange. I'm not actually sure I buy that right. I I think if you buy a gas car and has a much Better information ment system, I can be mad, right? If you buy a gay as car has super cruise, I think people will be generally happy. But there's a bunch of stuff under that that maybe super course is easier to deploy an evy because you have finer grain control over the motors or that breaking system, all the other stuff you might have mechanically in the in the car. Do you think that that's true that you need the E V transition to enable the user experience transition in the car or they just sort of coming along for the ride together?

First of, i'm going to hire you as my internal adventurous. We can go on a whole tour across the company pitch what you just pitch by what I whole hardly agree with you, which is I think what happened is the proportion change induce people to imagine what cars and vehicles could do. I don't think IT was the root cause of IT.

IT just was a Spark, and make people posing, start questioning what else can we imagine in the car? However, I don't think it's this kind of like correlation. Was this causation? I agree with your proportion change should not be the caution of we should have more integrated, deeply aware experiences of our vehicles because wanting that, that I always tried to say to people's like this is one of the most verdict integrated products you could probably buy in your life.

and. Why wouldn't we imagine the world where the navigation system, the accelerator h VC and the something like super cruise, they should all be talking to other? That's actually, if you and I were just imagine our car.

We did know nothing about technology. We will just describe that that he just works, right? He will just be like A, I get into a car.

I express to the car. Forget full autonomy generally. Today i'm gonna dry from here to chase center for wars game. Help me get there. That's all you want.

Now, today, we ask people to divide us into little soft tasks, and you have to do all of the parts. That's the magic of software, right? We take that complexity away and we make IT simple.

And we ultimately tain tax. We hide certain tax. And the thing that i'm excited about working a gym, as I get to imagine how I can tap into all the capable of this thing and created deeply integrate experience.

And yes, i'll have to say, I learned IT from the best, right? I mean, you look at a company like apple who spoils a deep vertical integration is one of the ways to create the most seamless experience. Case in point, I we believe in the same playing for vehicles, and that's why we believe we are a hardware, software services company are than just hardware company.

Apple is an interesting commerce on obviously, there was a car project, there appears have not gone well is a reason why gm is able to turn into a software company faster than apple is able to turn into a car company.

Has a good question. One thing I came to really appreciate in my one year, ten year here is a building cars is uh is is a complex system and also wanting that is important to appreciate. Yeah, you might get frustrated if you don't get to post your favorite, really witty tiktok for an hour.

If there is a outage, you don't have that permission when you're bring a safety critical device that gets you from home to work, gets you to the hospital for your child's first of birthday, or you need to go rush and pick up your kids from school. This needs to work every time, every day under snowy days, hot days, reliably and safely, nonstop. I mean, that's an amazingly high bar.

There's very few little industries you appreciate. Health care is one after. I'm right. Imagine if you're a type one diabetic, those insulin pumps that month, your blood sugar and decide to how many mg of insuing we should give you.

Instead of in the old days ready to break your finger, do your own shots. Think about those kinds systems. These things are life critical, safety critical things.

So what do you come to appreciate when you start building cars? Is that that you need to get that right. That's not negotiable. That is job number one.

Then you start expanding IT and say, how can I create Richard experiences? Because now you're in that vehicle and I believe with the right talent and with the right players and you can marry them up in a company, we can, A G, M, create this kind experience. And we have the track record, right? Our cars have had software for decades now.

And IT, just what's adding changing is the submarine is now coming a little more for to the four front in how you interactive vehicle rather than M A B S. It's been around for decades that magic of software, right? Emissions and how that controlled that magic of the software, how you take corners, safety.

That's magical. There's a lot of emit at software. I think what's coming is just to the forefront and create that interactions. And I believe we gathered the right group of people, the right talent, collabone with the existing talent, a gm and creating those kind of experience. So I believe, in short.

it's possible when I look at the automotive industry broadly, there is the set of start up players that have begun from an integrated platform revision. Tesla, you talk to the revision people, and they are proud of the fact that they built a carne ter net, which most legacy car makers haven't done. Then you talk to the big players, G.

M. ford. And the conversation is all about reducing the number of microcontrollers across the car, right? We've got forty five ecs across the car.

We're going to bring IT down at thirty nine. And that's a huge Victory, right? Because we're we're reducing the amount of independent systems filled by other suppliers.

Where's gm on the stand? I realize you've only been there for about a year, but IT seems like you can't get to building all of the products you want to build, all the experiences you want to build unless you dramatically rearchitects the car. Where are you there?

This is the beauty and the hard but fun part of having such a vast and rich portfolio like we offer to G M. brands. We built a hammer as well as to dance and the blazer and silverado and bolt that we have a very large portfolio that meets the needs of very different jobs that people want to get done.

And so what that means is also, this is a popular portfolio. It's been around for a while, right? This is not a start up, a proof of concept with just two vehicles, that's a little bit easier to get started.

And it's easy to start from a blank sheet and say this is the new norm because there is no proceeding norm. So our job is just like any successful company and we're not the only was right. I mean, h think about uh, windows.

Windows runs probably on pcs that's been around for four decades as well as the PC just bought tomorrow. And they need to power ecosystem of thousands of permutations, of millions of permutations. What we do is we do support multiple elective architectures because that's what we do.

We do build the software for them, and we always are also looking into the future of where else can we take in. And the thing is, just like any company who is working on in their next electricity electron electronic, electronic architecture, you are gonna have a role loud. It's going to be progressive.

You cannot day one flip and entire portfolio, three brands and tens of different offerings on day one. And also you don't have to. That's the thing that I think our customers have different needs, different expectations, and we all work into that responsibility.

My team already actively working on the next and even next next generations of architectures because this this takes five to a decade or longer. So we are on this continuum. We have already when you get into the, say, twenty, twenty four or twenty lyric, you're experience a different electronic architecture.

Then you would have maybe you bata colorado zr to a pick up truck, and that's okay. And by the way, customers actually don't need to know. Our job is to hide that complexity. And the choices all you want is a reliable car that you can easily and comfortable tly get directions from IT routes. You in such a way that you know when you need to charge how much, where the charging stations are, that you can stream your music, answer your phone calls at a new experiences. But let us do our job will hide the complexity and will ue to innovate and make things even Better without always be having to do that.

Well, the coder listeners want to know we need to stay right. One, to do IT. When you talk about services broadly and what customers do or do not need to know about their cars, one of the main benefits of integrating the car architecture that I hear about all the time is this is what enables over their updates, the windows or malfunctioning.

We're going to ship in OTA and fix the windows. There's a new feature we want to add to the car. We can ship a feature, we can address every system in the car and went to go drop the ot. And it's done. Tesla, obviously famous for this revision.

Does this like the car makers struggle with this, right? Because you're integrating all of these systems from all these suppliers to talk to each other, but you can address directly in that way or your suppliers have to write the code. That's really the thing i'm asking about here.

Have you taken control of that entire architecture? Or is gm still using a bunch of different components from different here? One suppliers?

I think the way you purposively simplify IT, uh, i'm not saying an unitive manner is is probably the most stark way of turning into a binary. Like if you don't have full control of everything and you don't design your own silicon and you don't do this, this is you cannot create device that real the update table, that's actually not true. So that's the thing that I think in the industry, we need to be a little bit cautious that they are today.

We are actively updating our cars in our current architectures. And yes, maybe some of the pieces that need to be updated are harder to upgrade, but they're not impossible to upgrade. And this is the moment, and I always put the honors on on creators.

On makers is our job to figure out the heart art. And yes, IT wouldn't be amazing if I was given a blank sheet today. I will design this to be just simply a central computer and this and that, and it's just one magical button that happens.

But if you were to impact any consumer device you had in your pocket that existed that say, for the last fifteen, twenty years, we all went through this type of evolutions. Yet we always found a way to make them updated and kept them IT was just harder to do internally. But you, as a consider, hopefully never had to feel that difference.

So yes, there is a great promise of moving tomorrow, I P slash, for example, internet base architectures, creating more central compute units to try to get more flexibility and easier updates that on our road map. But I am not waiting for that to day to arrive to be able to get you updates today in your blazer, E, V, in your lyric, in your hammer, in your corvee. We're doing that every day, all day.

And that's why I want to be also very clear that there is not as yes or no answer of you must wait for the future to come and therefore a desire the only modern companies that do IT. We are doing that every day, and we want to continue to innovate on the editor of architecture. And you will see that experience IT. But one day, hopefully, don't even notice that the silicon in your car change because I don't think you too matter to you.

We need to take a quick break for your back.

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We're back with James S. V, P. Of software and services bear chetney to dive into the decoder questions, which I promise will get us to the biggest question of all, car play.

Let me ask quoter questions again.

You've only been there about a year, but there has been a restructuring. You let go about a thousand people. Your role has changed. You have a counterpart and dave Richardson, who runs engineering a gm. How is this entire group structured and how do you account for the vastness of gm portfolio?

Goes back to a opening conversation about functional orientation. So one of my my primary partner in crime is dav Richardson, and he oversees our engineering team as well as our IT. That's a very important part because like I said, we need them to turn this the imagines we need them and designers to turn this into reality.

One big change that happened is we are now a primary peer group to our counterparts on the vehicle side, vehicle product development side. And that's actually immensely freeing, right? Because now you have the people who are imagining the vehicle, because here I use this word internally to, we're here in service of the vehicle.

That's what we do. Some bare stand alone is not the go to create an amazing vehicle. You get into IT and you are take that Z R one on the track. And I know our present marker, which took this thing up to two hundred thirty plus mos for hour, there's so much going on in that card to make that happen. But that means of us came together to make that happen.

And that's one big structural change that solar and services are now a primary seat at the table alongside people who are building the vehicles and design the vehicles that one of the big changes. And the other thing is we're definitely actively looking how we can be leaner and more efficient and optimize for speed because, uh, uh h, there is this debate that takes place. How big is too big when you try to move fast? Eventually the the note connection in that network, the collaboration tax becomes greater than the benefit adding and plus one more person to the notes.

And that's the thing that we always act the Oscar selves. How do we make sure that this is a winning team that is lean, that is just right sized with the right players and has the right amount of connections, not too much, not too little. But also we want to be in place where we say, you know, fewer, yes is and make great ideas happen and say a lot of yes is and struggle in timing, schedule and other things.

So that's one of our things that may be a different a new perspective we will bring into the mix and what we believe what IT takes to build great software services might be a little bit different. We call a different model ondijo. Then maybe some of the other parts.

you obviously came into a structure. You have changed the structure. You have reduce the size of structure in the interest of speed. What is the biggest difference between the structure you came into and .

the structure you have now? One is this functionality orientation. The second area is this is one of one of the belief that I have strongly, as I believe, experts, leading experts, is a great model.

You really want to be the experts of at least most of the things you're overseeing than you. Therefore, instead of generalists generally managing groups, we are actively hiring or finding experts with ng m to lead the sub group of experts of their domain. Because then there is this really healthy debate environment, right? This I call IT like dialect, the seeking truth nature.

I when you experts of something, you have this desire to always improve and question question. But when you have generalists overseeing things, they can make you maybe generally efficient, but they're not gone to be equipped to question the details. So you have experts, leading experts.

And then the other things, something we talk about, which is how do you create the trust, the environment at this? Experts trust their peer experts. They go, you know what i'm going to the fourteen rely.

You are Better communications in how to do Better story telling, how to make things be here. Tell me, how do you think we should tell that story? I could be dangerous enough and say, have been in this for three decades. I know how to do P.

R, but why should I do that? I have some of the best communications people working with me to advise me and to actually help me to achieve that goal, so that other experts, experts leading and experts trusting each other and passing the whole, those are I don't think they're new to G M. Percy, but those are the things we are itj, how we want to Operate as a software services group.

Gm is a giant company. I think you report directly to marry bear, the C. E, O, yes. But G, S, to oversee how the vehicle platforms are expressed from gmc trucks to chevy trucks to bw accidents to the the whole witney of gms cars and platforms and brands. How do you break the tie if I know catala wants a software feature but bug doesn't?

I'll start IT. It's hard, but I I call it's hard work and let's do IT right? I mean, is hard work.

There's definitely recognition that we have a capacity of just like any any product group and an engineering group, you need to be hones about the capacity that you have. You need to be thoughts about what you can do and went with quality. I always say to people, you don't just say no, you usually say when and how.

So I think when you have such a das portfolio one, you need to be be sized on the support site. We're not gonna not build an amazing vehicle that we committed to because sofa group is too busy. However, when you are looking at your capacity supplier is not the only capacity constraint ride.

You need to be thought about suppliers because you, let's say, want to do something really amazing, magical, and you need that just that right camera, or that just write that sensor. Well, you need to also negotiate how do you get that supply to be delivered to the plant, which also has a capacity constraint that some other experts in the company. I have great friends who helps me navigate all of these pieces of what IT takes a build a vehicle.

And we're one of the constraints and also enables. So our job is, are we right sized? Do we have the right people look at the right problems? And also, how do we manage our capacity over multiple years, not just one year, because a vehicle portfolios are a little bit more like venture capital investment style funds and managing optimizing portfolio rather than a hedge fund whose hyperacute vely trading.

When you start imaging in an amazing vehicle like Z R one, that idea started probably five, seven years ago, right? Because that's what IT takes to build an amazing great car. Sometimes what you're doing is just a new model year of an existing car.

That's a different task. Sometimes you're doing a middle cycle refresh of that car. So all of these is definitely are complex portal management task.

But at the end, your ending up billing are so visually, emotionally fun. No, I just IT. It's hard work. Let's do IT.

How do we break the ties?

that? How do we break the ties? It's debate club. And what happens in debate club is in debate club.

So no, this is the thing, right? We have such amazing leaders, like mary mark roys, leaders who work for Marks some of my breasts. I can more as jush travel on the design side.

Michael simko, I mean, these people legends in their own right of what he takes to build a multi I car, multi brand, successfully, high quality, profitably, is a respectful debate club. And eighty. And I think there there's two options I call IT you, you agree and commit, or you disagree and commit and you get to work.

This leads me right into the decoder question. You have a lot of decisions to make. What is your framework to make decisions?

Um I think i've been already sprinkling some of of the clues.

I can tell you, sir, I can always tell when the guest is a listener, even building your way to here. Look.

this is one of those things. IT all started at home kind of a moment, but IT is true. I grew up in a household where questions were answered by questions.

IT was a very phocas tic method of debate and dialectic. You sought truth, and you let the debate lead you to places that your own persuing. Because we all have this, this little first reactions that we think we know.

It's very important for a leader to always catch yourself. And O I actually don't know many things about this. Let's do data, intuition.

There is this really famous article. I love the headline goes data or intuition and yes, both. And that's what IT is.

IT is both. But you debate IT because decision that are rarely so neatly binary, right? There are always on a spectrum of grey, and they're really, really deeply wrong.

They're deeply right. You debate IT, you weigh IT. And then finally comes to a single sentence for me, conviction.

You have a fingle term conviction at the end. You need to make a bet, and you need to have conviction. And now this is your moment of little.

Be making reality happen. It's easy to react to imperative, observable reality, because then everybody can reserve the same thing and come to the same conclusion. Life is easy, right? You do, arch research says, and you do.

The hard part is decisions we're making today are Crystal bowling. What's gna happen in five years in taste, desirability, psychist technology? The only way you get there is hopefully you're subjectively, objectively make good judgment calls.

But you make a call, you have conviction and you put your efforts behind making that reality because there's a lot of things that are under your control. Let's worry about those. There is a term that I picked up from my days, amazon, it's called controllable inputs.

You worry about your controller inputs, other things are gona happen and you have to react. But with your controller inputs, you make your decision and you commit and start executing. I always hope you most of success comes from the landless alternative execution, rather than some magical, amazing, brilliant lipo idea.

Incessant dedication are doing IT over and over in the area. That commitment and conviction is what? Get you there with decisions.

okay? You open the door with convictions. I'm going to ask you this, this everybody has wanted me to ask you about the big decision which was made before you arrived.

Gm was the decision to drop smartphone projection like car play and android auto from gm vehicles. I'm assuming that when you took the job of G. M, you agreed with this decision.

You certainly haven't und one IT in your in your year there. Why make that decision? Why drop car plane android auto from gm vehicles?

Because there was A A belief in a hypotheses which I generally believe in, is that. We are best positioned as well as we owe IT to do our customers first hand to create the most deeply integrated experience that you can create with the vehicle. We are not shipping devices with just monitors.

We're not a monitor company. We're building beautifully designed pete, pete thoughts, complete convictions. We say this guards designed to do the following things.

awesome. This is silver to. This is what IT stands for.

This is what IT does. Let gets to IT. And when you want to create something .

so seamless.

it's hard to get into a car in a OK. So i'm doing the highway failure oring. But to pick my pocket, let me flip to a total different user interface.

And also, by the way, it's a single still part to believe, single APP obs interface. So I pick my podcast flip back to to trailler ing. Oh, now I can also do super cruise trAiling. Let me manage that.

And then with weight, we're now getting into potentially level three, level four autonomy levels that should be deeply integrated with talking to the map where the lanes lie but wait to meet the map that i'm using doesn't really talk to my car like is a product or so you'll never do that yourself because it's just literally like, oh my god, let me make sure I make my life so hard to create amazingly seamless experiences. So at some point you need to make that bull decision and say, I am not going to trying to accommodate and try to figure how to make all of these work. I'm going to actually just burn the bridges and burn the ships and go.

We're committed. We are gonna create a deeply, verily, inter the harmonious experience that works across the vehicle that is optimize for my vehicle. I can appreciate when you're in that one of rental car that you don't want to be driving, but that's the only carpets available when you land in whatever destination landed and be my guest, use projection.

But the car that I research for months decide to buy for its interior, exterior and its propulsion. And every feature that IT does for me, like, 呃， we bought a clora, can you zr to bye? We love cars in our families.

You can see we're very outdoorsie like good gravel biking and rock climbing. You, somebody with my son, I want that car to be true and true. Optimize for what I bought IT for, not some least common dominated the moment. So that's why when I joined IT was not a easy decision to embrace. I'll be very honest you because you say seemingly at first, hard decision and maybe be unpopular decision, but IT is the right decision because we are here building and to and integrated products for you.

But I just have to say this, a lot of time is the land of the airport and get the rental car. It's it's a White chevy malaya. You don't leave smart from projection alone in the fleet cars that get put in rental lots.

I'll take this suggestion back to our senior leadership team.

And I see i'm just curious because you're describing one very specific thing that people like smartphone projections and there is a big market, G M. So that's the kind of fine grain debate about smart from projection I get from verging readers and decoder listeners yeah hey, there are all these places where that idea sounds great and there's this whole list of other places where that sounds horrible.

Actually, when I borrowed my parents car, I do not want to live in their google account. I just want to send my spotify to the screen. And IT seems like you you're burning the bridges, but you're burning the bridges to a lot of other experiences that people have course on that one.

I think my response is the wanting that I am trying to encourage our partners and we work very closely beat with apple, google, amazon, spotify and others is, I believe, some of those pieces of information, pieces of your preferences, I believe, should be also accessible to other devices that you choose to use. I don't think they need to be locked in this whole garden of a single domain like I don't.

I personally believe I should be able to take my podcast preferences from one pocket APP to another. I always find IT interesting that some of these very generic preferences I declared are locked and loaded e IT, especially for none special content. yeah.

I appreciate a certain show is only on netflix that say respect, but most of song music catalogues, more podcasts, most mapping information, your home address, your work address. I mean, these are pretty generic pieces of information that you probably want to just enable in any vehicle walk into to make that experience more personal. So that's one thing that I our teams also working on. How can we actually get that information to power any bespoke experience that in a vehicle right than having to really ingenious shed the full worthy to experience to a totally different experience.

We need to take another .

quick break will wear effect.

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We're back with games. S, U, P, of software services. Bears try not discussing the company's decision to drop apple car play and making sense, or with trying to make sense of google's various android car platforms.

So I had just spent a weekend test striving a blazer. E, V, A lot of fun. That whole stack is built on android, right? Its google services is a place store, its apps.

IT wanted me to a log in to my google count. That's where all of that information then came from. And then he wanted me in to log in to my spotify camp is a where a bunch of that information came from. At some point, you've can just put an android tablet in the middle of my car. Why build on android, right, where you're describing as a big vision and then kind of IT the way it's expressed right now is, well, he is android.

The way I look at is just like, know if we were to the start up today, we will probably start playing with existing building block, right? We will look at like you and I ve got to do, let's say, I don't know overlanding at you probably wouldn't come to me and say, I have an idea first we should get a data center and get much rax. We will probably go to A W S.

And then you will say, hey, look you for develop this act, we going to use react. There are some existing library open source like to take those. And we'd say we were also in the business of using some kind of a maps.

We would be like, well, when we working on this platform will use this maps, where are is here. We don't need to actually go a third party map today. We're not think about IT that way, you know, is a software group and software developing group.

We don't have to build every single building block. You have capabilities that out there that's already given to you like android is a building, black is an open source system. In addition to that, google provides additional building blocks that you can tap into and you can build around.

And you know we're working with uh, you know other companies and see if they'll be interesting building their building blocks and their apps into this kind of a environment where we get to create experience. So I look at this is just enabling capabilities. And one things this moments you talked about, like I to log in here to get the information from that equal system and make IT more, more personal.

I'm gonna chAllenge my team, and I do. I think we should make that super magical and simple. Why can we not just detect you how you are phoning your pocket? And we do a very simple handshake instead of scanning a cr code today, that most seamless way of doing IT. But there is many, many different ways of doing IT.

The same thing with, if you log in wants, what if you log into plus one other G M built car, can we care IT over? Can we create one authentically system around gm ID that Carry some of your other credentials? So all of these are you might be to our solvable problems, and we're not setting out to do that.

IT takes dedication and having this platform thinking to be able to one at a time and with dedication to remove all of these moments of friction, you are T I agree with you. And we going to make IT simpler and simple and simpler. And one thing i'll say do is, thankfully, most people don't change their cars as often as you do.

You changing your cars as often, you probably change your shirts. Most people buy a car and love IT for three, four years. And I used to say this in other place I work.

You know, most people don't upgrade their opening system of their phones every week with a new built. Most of us hold some of our devices longer. That initial moment of potential, maybe to set up routine feels I wish I didn't have to do IT. But once you do IT once, now it's your car, it's your vehicle, it's your data. It's your choices.

I want to come back to this time on after three or years, been thinking about this a lot. But first, I want to ask you a very chAllenging question that I will warn you, not every car executive who's been on the quota has been able to do this. This is a chAllenge. Can you name all of google car platforms and describe what they do?

Let me give you the phone .

number of just .

of a google executive.

I don't think I can do IT either.

I went very clear about this. I i'll say this, we have a great tight partner ship at them. And what I try to do.

and you look at our no, you got to try what you use.

We definitely use google bilton and google automotive services. And in the depth of everything, this is the thing, right? Just like I don't know, most people don't know, mac OS is actually built on a version of unique and a linux at sea.

So when you actually start see splitting the layers of the cakes, there is definitely open source or linux, and android is actually a linux derive tive. When you think about let's get all nerdy here, but when you start looking at all of IT is actually based on some other thing. So what we use is we definitely use google bilton, and we use google auto wove services to create expanses.

But one step we took is we definitely create our own experience around IT. When you got into blazer evy, there are these moments to make that more personal so you can use google maps at all the things that you have done in google maps before. So therefore there is a moment and say, if you will, like you can sign in with your google, uh account so therefore your own homework or last searches that is on your phone also just appears in your recent so those are the kind of moments where we hook into the google services. But yeah um it's hard to build popular building blocks like google does or AWS as and kept all their branding and naming rights.

I hear you what's different from google built .

in an android automotive.

which is well, there's google automotive services, which is basically the place store in the apps and then there's google built in which is what you have, correct? And then there's android automate. And I literally been trying to keep this correct. I've been trying to keep this clear my head. I feel like you would know, like, you know.

I do, I do know, I do know what I am nothing about this, but this is the thing, right? H consumers don't need to know anything. I need to know.

I need time to know. This is why you're here.

So i'll give you an answer that is actually going to be even more less satisfied that you want, which is because we have different model years and difference brands you do have and some of them have been been with us longer, some of the our brand new vehicles, you get into a lyric, you get a different experience. So our goal is, first of all, to unify those experiences. That's why here today, it's why, David here.

That's why all of our teams are here to actually take away that complexity of that you're describing. And so you can actually locally see where in which vehicles we're using different combinations services. But again, I think from a consumer perspective, it's pretty OPEC. I don't think they need to know these differences, but i'll point you a great White paper that try to explain that all .

i'm i've read the White papers. I've seen the block. I guarantee you more people are going to see more blog posts.

Keep me one day we're going to figure this out. What does that deal with? Google look like to use their stuff right on a smart phone?

That is the subject to pretty ferocious regulatory interest litigation, right? You have to take place services. You ve got to use their APP to get a thirty percent split. Is IT the same on the car .

commercial details of IT? It's definitely it's something confidential. Don't think I should be in the business of disclosing our partnership details. But from our perspective, you know again, just like your article, I know it's complex in the sense of there's different types of experiences and different types of building blocks.

And depending on how you use those different blocks, there's different terms and conditions of how you integrate, how you Operate, how you updated. So there is not a simple, neat answer because this is unlike windows, right? This is not a standard base.

Windows B, C, and you buy license of windows and you're after the races as, uh, O, M, the cars, we create our far more complex and capable. So therefore, a good portion of the cars is using things that are not directly license from google and some portions are directly license for and google maps, google maps, or google and google assist that. So every one of those permutations and come together is different than unique.

The reason I asked that question is one of the reasons so many car makers are interested in taking control away from smart front projection and building their own user interfaces is what you've described is offering more services, offering more subscription services in the car, offering more transactions on that screen, taking thirty percent of every transaction that happens on a screen in the car, offering streaming services.

I've heard every version of these ideas. And if your economics include having to pay google a fee for android apps Operating your car on top, the fees you are attracting IT feels like there's a real attention there that google is an Operating system vendor services venture, is going to want a fee or want a percentage split on top of the one the G. M.

Wants, are an up to helper. And then the economics for that to developed to put an APP on your car, on your platform, starts ts. To fall apart. Pretty fest. And we see this spying on smart ones, right? Like literally in the day before we are speaking, uh, who is saying we're not going to have sign up on IOS track anymore because we don't pay that thirty percent but like on smart phones, I see this tension with just one intermediary in apple and google in your car too, there is apple and there is google in the most potential gym.

Let me pass this question a little bit and i'll start with first. Our primary motivation in every conversation were having is actually IT comes from first created great costumer experience. I have this simple exim.

It's called great products, also usually make great businesses. But you always start with a great product in everything we're discussing. We're trying to always continues the optimize.

How do we create a great experience for you? That's that's the primary go. The second thing is the type of services that I am really excited about that we are building. And the good thing is we are accompanying already proven that model with on star. We have millions of sugarBakers.

That is using to extend their vegal experience in a way that is expected from the vehicle, right, which is how do you make the safer for me? How do you make h prevent or h help me recover my car? If there was A A problem of that, how do we help you sure, ensure your car easier? Because that is, again, super cruise is a great example, right? Super cruise that ever improving, we continually adding more and more road, for example, that means there's an ute value were adding.

We just opened up to seven hundred fifty thousand miles across the us. That means we're investing. Therefore, there is value added, value created and therefore, consumers are willing to pay for this subscription.

Those are the type of services are deeply first interested in, which is that is things that are extending my vehicle experience as as a vehicle. I think that s that's ours to build and ours to develop that there is some opportunities like you articulate ted around entertainment, around gaming eta, but to me, they come next. And we are obsessed with extending the vehicle experience first because we know how to do that really well.

And there are some domains, you know, i'm not here to compete with spotify or apple music. They do a fantastic job of serving all of our music listed needs. And you know, we work with them.

We bring their apps to our platform and run IT. So I am not too concerned about that part. If you articulated how do you create value? How do you capture value? How do you split economics? I think there are all solvable problems, but IT all starts with IT.

What is the experience that I think I owe you as a consumer who buys a beautiful escape IQ a month or two? And what are the experience I should create? When you get into that car, you going to see this pillar to pillar display ay, front control, back control. We have so many ideas of what expenses we can create for you there before we get into this area of revenue share debates around a gaming APP, he mentioned three.

four years. The reason that immediately what up my brain is know when listeners ask me about car play, a thing that save me all the time is, well, if you're going to put a giant android tablet in my car, that means I have a giant android tablet in my car. And android tablets get slow like three years, or now that will be slow.

And with smart from projection, it's always just staring off my phone, which is always fast. How do you deal with that? How do you deal with, okay, we've put all of the user in her face on an S, O, C, A in a car that might have to ask for a decade.

Do you just over expect them to make sure they have enough headroom to last that long? Do you just assume people going to turn in on three year leases? What's the sprint .

you do with multiple things? First of all, i'm a huge world of creating elegant software. We're not just simply running some off the shelf android and just conceding the entire thing in the onon optimized way we're directly involved.

We're actually are using that as a building block and we're creating our experience. So therefore, first, the honest on us, how do we create more optio and optimize code. And i'm a huge way of you can continuously improve your code from the day you shipped till the day you update that.

So that's one thing. We are on a continue optimization journey. So this thing doesn't just stay stable and just collect. But on top of that and dignity debt, the other areas, you're absolutely right because you do look at the computer investment you're making and you wanna a give yourself heddon because today we're doing l two, which is I call IT eyes on hands off driving with superrich.

But we are also the company who already invested in a fully autonomous future, which is the future of future, which is with four level, four autonomy. There is a zone of l three level, three autonomy. Well, if you want to live on that journey, you want to create a system that is maybe has some hidden or sensible expandable as you add new capabilities because maybe don't want to over provision from day one because you're not going to take an advantage of IT.

You know, one industry that I never worked at, but I am familiar because I also I was a game or I have less time to do gaming now. But the same thing applied when you are creating the next PS five forces, p six, you knew this platform was gonna be there for many years to come. And you were trying to create this, just the right baLance of provision, just right with room for extendability up to my software, bring content in and IT feels fresh, new and always improving. That's exactly what we're doing with our vehicles today. When you buy a if you ought lyrics last year, the lyrics your driving today has new software, more optimized, probably running faster than you think that you bought because we're continuous ly improving IT know you .

mention other platforms. I always think of how windows phone, for some reason, when people talk about platforms like this, again, when listeners tell me why they like carp ay which they are constantly telling me why they like car play, one of the things they say is all of the apps on my phone support car play. A one listener who told me he routinely switches between six to seven apps and car play while is commuting.

And it's like podcast apps, e book apps, like all this stuff and he just flip in. I find that incredible. I is two apps.

But circus, yeah. That means you need the APP support, right? If you want to sell that listener a blazer or lyric, he's got to sit down. He's got to open the place store, which is not great for discovery right now, i'll tell you.

And he's got to search for all of his seven apps and he's got to find them all, which is the problem is one had right, the volume of apps wasn't there, the library wasn't there. Have you thought about solving my problem? Is that gms problem? Is that google's problem? How are you addressing that?

Anything that happens to our cars is our problem. That's how I look at IT. I think there is that finding that happy medium of what are the most popular apps, we believe really should be there to complete experience.

And there's going to be sometimes that one I this even applies today. There are some experience that are they don't even have actually right, even in your phone. Sometimes you need to go punch through to the internet and go to the browse and do IT.

I mean, this type of, uh, your different domains exist in our lives in other, in other places too. We are working actively with the people we believe provide the apps to core apps. The first, maybe the top down and the parade of eighty twenty is even more stark when he started talking to people.

What are the most have apps while you are driving or while you are a passenger when you're riding in our vehicles, that this is actually far shorter than the long tail of things that we do. And so h, however, there is definitely, I think you you you're touching up on an interesting area that I am also interested in, which is, is there way to bring vegal optimized versions of certain apps? Let's say, if you're a surfer, there is this great apple surf line.

I mean, IT would be actually fascine ouldn't be if if you had a really vehicle optimize versions of the surf line APP that gave you information about what's the tight conditions are wind a but didn't smart way. And then now let's go live IT into the future. I believe this rabbit holes of vertical microsecond matic apps, they are gonna on there, a change too, especially with voice interface becoming far more intuitive, done ever before because of large language models.

I think large language models biggest change for me is finally, I know I can be understood by the machine despite the that I did not phrase myself just perfectly, and that device is going to be able to interact my intent and give me answers today. The reason I think we all default a more touch user interface is we, as users have to do a lot of the disability ation instead of the machine. Understanding what you want, you are going through things.

I'm pointing all you want to know aci's this, you don't need an APP all you want to go. I'm driving to optos, california to serve in an hour. Tell me to surf conditions. It's a two sentences answer, do I really need to APP for that?

Apple solution to this is next generation car play, where they will send more information to more screens, where they will help car makers design the instrument cluster and other screens. Your old boss, jaws is a big advocate of this. It's been taking up a little bit, but not a lot. Have you looked at IT? Would you use next one car play for apple?

I look at the almost everything I draw, almost every conference, tous car on their design. And I I have all devices that you probably also Carry your pocket to learn and test and understand. We already kind of made our decision about the experience we want to create, which is going to be deeply, very international experience that gm designs IT for our customers, build IT, maintains IT updates, IT innovate on. That's our direction.

There's a really interesting A B test happening sort of an A B test in the market right now. You've got the blazer EV, which has your approach. There's the honor prologue, which is substantially the same platform in the across D, X, substantially the same E V platform.

They support car play. The prologue is kind of a hit. It's I think, a surprise IT for hondo. Are you keeping track of that? You think that's attribute able to car plays that difference in branding?

We look at the competition, but we're probably customer and quality obsess company rather than come competition obtain company were definite highly competitive company. But IT goes back to something we talked about, didn't we? It's about conviction.

We have high conviction that this is the right path for us to take and to create a truly into your expenses for our customers. And like I said, easy decision would be just why make that effort? But we have strong conviction that effort pays off in Better cosme experience.

You get to get most out of your vehicle because now where are the company that builds the vehicle that's also creating the information expense, the cluster experience, the APP and everything we're going to build up monday and maybe a voice is sent on top of IT. The only way you can create that and and magic is if you have a strong conviction that you wanna own all of these because without IT, it's hard to create those seamless expenses. You're gonna always feel the themes, and I don't think you should be in the business of feeling the themes when you buy A. Thirty, forty, fifty, sixty hundred thousand doa car that's our job to make IT beautiful and seamless.

We have a to say, look, i'm not i'm just not gonna buy a car with a car play and that's fine. Point them to something that will make them change their mind. We'll make them reconsider what's something coming up. We're going to say I can build an experience that will make you reconsider.

I don't think you need to wait forward the future. I think super creese and how IT integrates natively with you .

can get super crews on a lyric with car play .

today with navigate. Well, the thing is that your experience, when you are using native integration to the map, that knows what you're going to be, what is the road conditions, what's happening, where is the construction site and ties IT back to the battery system and says, by time you get your destination and return your batteries, going to be at this level, here is the energy efficient route you can take.

I cannot create that magical little dots connecting to each other if I had to go back. And for between a navigation APP running on another platform and back and forth. And that's the thing that you don't need to wait for future to create that. And the other things that we want to create, similar things, especially when we start introducing level three autonomy, hands off, eyes off and even to future of like the robot taxes, that tight integration is a prerecorded, an optional feature.

Yeah, there is. Thank you to comment. Decoder, you got to come back. We can do a full hour and rebel taxes and a full hour of the different stream product and program, right?

Really, I really enjoyed our conversation. Great questions. And I, I, I, I will listen to this episode IT turns out pretty.

We can all learn something. Maybe get that Price from google. Let know. Thank you. very.

Thanks so much.

I like think barrier should take some time to join the coder. And thank you for a listening. I hope you enjoy that.

If you like to let us know, we thought about the subsoil a really anything else all drop a line. You can email IT decoder, the verge com. We really do read all the emails even from the people who love cartoon.

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