$100B Founder Breaks Down The Biggest AI Business Opportunities For 2025
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That's a trend that I I can like and see that sometimes, right? That's the bet you're make. That's the bet we make.

And so I will go with the guys here like we are Better on negative one zero, I, Peter, they will talk about this year to one companies. We still want step even before that could be what I want to. amazing.

I haven't seen you in a while. People don't know. We used to work together maybe five, six years we go found the company and launched a bunch products in the eat a bunch ship together.

And here we are one times about the way, yeah.

taking the title of this is going to be because apple love is now fifty, sixty billion dollar company, fifty billion dollar founder tells me the next big thing I want to go for youtube, click bake with that. And we so we used to do this thing where, after we did be able together, got a quiet. We were there for years.

So, and then we, we went often we do different things. I started the podcast and started my thing, you started to doing yours, but I hit you up and I like, hey, mistake and out with you, what if we did something? And we we started doing this on wind's day, which was like to cool shit hour.

And this is amazing. It's basically a show and tell where you, my smart st. Friend, would come on with this and you'd like, hey, have you seen this? Have you seen this? Have you seen this? And I really had seen any of IT, and you would kind of explained that.

And teachers to me, and he was my favorite part of the week, and we did that for probably I can hear, or something like that. So I kind of want this to be like a public version of the cool shit hour where you're just going to tell me bunch of good things. I want to start with A I because you texted me something, he said, AI agents are here.

And you said a is cool because a ten person company feels like I could do the work of a hundred person company. And we're using IT in our companies. I wanted to hear what are you doing with A I? And that's not called ChatGPT.

I think this were agent or this kind of phrase is the thing that I really campus myself away from. Like literally every night, like, you know me, like middle frogs, I went to write code the whole day, is I talking to people in the night is .

like coating the first comes, that schedule is not tunnel. So I remember we hired you and I feel like the first day you came in at nine am to kind of like I think I show is probably ten after that from day two on where was like rolling in at eleven at lunch time. Had lunch you would talk, you do meetings and I like, this is this guy code? And that night, like four a, you would have built a prototype and you're basically knock tunnel.

You you get all your shit done. You like, you used to tell me, you used to get during the day, you just burn up your energy so you could focus at night and actually, right code, yeah. I want to tell you about a really cool future and helps that I don't think most people know about.

It's called the marketing and content hub. So here's what works you're doing, content marketing. That's what I do that so many brands do is works really, really well, but I be very time consume.

So what they do is they have tools like content remix, which will take one piece of content and immediately turned into a bunch of pieces for all the different platforms in one click. Or they have leads corn, which will basically shine a light on which leads that you have or most likely to purchase. And then they have the analytics sweet.

So you get reports, K, P, S and all kinds of A I powered insight that you can share with your team and not be flying blind anymore. So if you're doing content marketing, highly recommend to check out the content hub and marketing hub for hub spot. And you could visit hub spot that com to get started for free back to the sub.

So what are you doing with A I? And how's that? What does that actually in your company right now?

yeah. And so i'll to tell you how I think in about A I agent, right, what that means to me. So A I agents are using l EMS or A I systems, right? Like OpenAI systems are cloud, but then giving IT reasoning loops.

So imagine that and you go to human, you give them something to do, okay, I want to go grow company or to do a marketing campaign. They take that, they plan IT. They come up with the steps to plan, then they go one by one of the task and like, solve them.

They release some of them. And so these AI agent systems are exactly like that. The first thing that does IT goes, what do I need to do based on your request? And come up with the plan you give IT like a mission, correct? So let's see.

I'll give you an example, something we're doing that third way, which is every single sign up in our company. And you know we have a lot of sign PS every week and you know a human can only scan through them. But really interesting people sitting up.

You have interesting company. We may know them. There might be a large company or small one to be a compete or anything else. And so we would used to have a human go and look at everything.

Is that of a gmail? I ignore IT, but if is like, oh, and this other company over here and let's go research IT, right? I'll figure out what the what products you might like, what they might need to do and then you would send him an email try to customize IT.

Typically, this is a good seals practice. You're taking your customers and delivering them your business team. And so we built an agent to do this.

And every sign up p that comes in, IT looks like you to determine, is that an interesting person or not? IT will research the website. IT will research them.

It'll then use the knowledge has of the web products and try to figure out what is actually like, what products they might need, how they would use IT and then they would send them an email or up sell or something like that. And we've deploy probably either ten of these throughout their room to two, a lot of different functions. And what IT feels like is a smaller company and punch above its weight.

So like we're like thirty seven people right now, I really believe are more like any people. That's what IT feels like with a lot of these tools. And you're taking the brain power, somebody who gets IT and you're giving them that power to go and say, here's a thing.

So so in this case, person up your site puts on their email dress. Now you have it's one agent or it's like a series of things that pass off .

to each other. I O, in this is we all such one agent. IT creates a plan. What do I do? And you know, part of the plan is the directive we gave IT. And I think the way to think about AI agents in general is any like clear directive problem.

And what I think about clear directive is like, let's go to you x like side up comes in, go look at the person, go research them, go figure out what their title was their company, what products they have. So that that kind of clear what the job to do is and if is a digital task and a clear directive, all of that can be done. The agents now the technology is it's ready and it's working. And so for the third web sign, aging IT will to come in IT. Don't make a little plan, my kay, I got to expect the domain, I gotta a look up the person.

And you didn't have to tell that each .

one of those little tasks we gave you like on like one one paragraph directive and another paragraph of, like how I should Operate, maybe a paragraph at the end for like the type of email or the action to do.

And so but the end product is IT looked up, the perse IT basically kind of looks at the sign ups, picks the interesting ones, research as them. You said things about what product of hours will suit their needs, which is that the wild step that I hadn't thought about? And then I craft an email and then IT gives you to a human, or just send IT IT o. You have enough trust that can .

send me customers started with human in the loop and there are still like see if cards you put in um like any directive wood, like you don't want to just send random emails even as a human doing the right. Um but I mean it's very clear what what to tell IT. And I think this is where the power is kind of beautiful. Ying is like we've we've a ChatGPT if you can tune IT to your problem. So for example, giving you the knowledge of the web products is the key difference here, right a general chat g GPT message, when I say that there just invent something that's like general engineering or whatever IT knows.

and when you build this, so you build this or somebody else.

but this, sometimes I hate IT. As a protest, I gave you to somebody on our solutions team, and within a day they turned IT around.

And when you like a working version of this, how long did that take you? Because it's kind of like you basically hired an employee and trained them and got them working. You're not paying A A salary and you probably do the whole thing of what like a day or two.

So this there's like a bunch of like my night of learning tools and getting used to as I take that time out of IT just this time I spent anyways right now, like uh, two nights ago, I was like greatly stressed, like my calendars, that kind of crazy some of these days. And I was just going to figure out like, why is a crazy? Where is that going? Like a really hard question to like, ask.

And what do you do? You can have an E A. You can go look through IT, do well stuff and have an E A.

I help me with these things then he sleeps over like a and like, you know, I want to go to some these questions. So I probably about fifteen minutes, I connected in my calendar. I connected a little interface recopied to IT as hard to asking in questions. Company hours meetings that I have last week is at twenty eight hours.

If we do, where do the meeting go? what? What were they for? What were the purposes of IT? And then the next night I hook ed did are probably about the forty five minutes an hour where I could tell the comments from my calender, like, go block out monday for me, will go find me like nine hours of block time in this market block.

Oh, and this was like a few hours of work. Now that I know the tools, but is like IT just worked twenty four seven now, right? And so my calendar, my email, a few other things, i've started building these like personal agent or workflow type things because I know what I want to do every time.

I know how to react for the decision making i'm going to make. Can I just set that up? So IT works twenty four, seven, three, six, five. And just there are always right. The cost of IT is like, so I wanted to build .

a workplace like this. Okay, do what you need to know how the code to be able to do this light coding like give me like the bullet point version of how you build these. Where do you even build IT what tool to use.

So there's coding tools. I think if you're developer, there's like going gene and auto gene and crew. These are like very popular, very cool.

The OpenAI and clad S D K themselves are very, very powerful. But you're coating, you're writing a little system. This probably like one tenth of the code, you would have had a right to do something right.

So that's already Better for developers. You are not to developed. There's a lot of tools.

So like leap is the company we build in the studio. IT lets you stick together workload. An example is like you can trigger based on a slack message.

So let the of this log message or all your items go to up, picks up that trigger if you just put a little A I block and say, okay, take this email and do this task you want to ever go do that, you have a little conditional loop, or like repeat itself ten times, go to you that, and then you make a little decisions, steps like four boxes. Well, i'll put you back to another slack channel. Yes, so you come in with your sign up channel.

IT does this research? IT does all these things that does kind of whatever you want. And then you could go to you mail IT could go to another slack channel to pink somebody on your team so you get kind of you these are workflows, is what they start with and an agent or can kind of take these workflows and like almost built on top of them as well.

I think there's these two things you could really, really easily create workplace. And I think everyone should be deploying them. Every company should have them. IT is a superpower.

It's like, I know I think a feeling of almost like cloud, like I don't need to hold data center team now and I can right when we build black and like how many servers we have running videos, dreaming like that have been a nightmare is kind like to seem, you know, ten x improvement. But just for me, everything that I do, right? And so tools like leper, great.

I think you know there there's others out there that provide this. And so there's a combination is you don't know what a code. IT does have to think about the steps of that you would do, and you couldn't program that without writing any code, is just writing directives, take writing intent, basically of that what you .

want to accomplish, right? Like a magic jane tell you want. And I can figure IT out. So you got, uh, sales agent, you have your email, calendar, a calender, E A agent there.

any other, I guess, some fun, fabulous ones that so like I set up a dynamic whole paper. So literally, like every five or ten minutes, it'll look at what i'm doing and like auto generate me, like a computer lap my computer laptop wallpaper will modify itself to whatever. If it's night, I cannot.

I told that I code at night, right? So IT, we'll go towards that direction. IT knows i'm doing meetings, others than doing the day I am talking to people, right? And economic comes up with cool stuff.

Poly, frivolous, like, not like a useful thing except my own. Like this school, I found IT awesome and know letters, cool scenes that come up. IT invents new things. You know, cloud has created this new capability called computer use. I think that's the next area that I agent are gna enter and and by the way.

so the club, the chat P, T, there's complexity. This, all these different mentally. How do you bucket like the main A I tools? what? What's like the superpower of each each one maybe just do do those three or there's a fourth?

Yes, like I think OpenAI claude, I think of them as foundational tools. General purpose asked anything, input, output. You stick together with things and then they have tools, a ChatGPT on top.

Or if you computer use that, they are figuring how more general tools. I think perplexity is really interesting. It's taking this general purpose alem n and the reasoning you could do and search.

And like, I tried not to do google search anymore, mostly because it's slow and and effective. And perplexity really made IT where IT does a search. IT reads a result as I would.

IT clicks into the links as I would. And then he tries to answer my question more purpose. Li, and this saves me four or five steps.

So I think about perplexity is taking something like surge and then the L M. Reasoning and combining them together in a flow that that's more interesting granting. So ChatGPT or OpenAI tools don't have like real time knowledge or perplexity because the search is right.

What you're like tangent for you to take google, what up is to google search with all that you see now? And you're saying you're saying I tried not to google searching more. That's pretty wild, right?

Just feel slow. And I know they ve got the german. I think there I think the biggest fumble, you know and in .

our lifetime, the .

technology for transformers, the thing that open, I and others have used to develop this large language of model. They are the ones that were the first entry, like talking about IT and throwing IT out there and the resort happening.

So was the history there. They have the AI minds there. They write this research paper, attention is all you need. And now for modern, and like there's all the author's names, all of them are gone and basically started their own companies was IT because nobody recognized the power of IT. There was that that they tried in google bureaucracy shelter was a story of that.

I don't know, the internal, I think early on, google was like the place you two were. You wanted to have the rocker's moment in your life. The smartest people were here. They were just taking the biggest chAllenges and IT just really felt like that place. I think google as a company hasn't felt like that.

I think the parent company and all the other things going on do to feel like that, i'm sure it's a mess and there who know who's like, but I just feels the biggest fumble and I know they're trying to play catch up with ji n awesome stuff is happening. But the developer mindshare and the attention has gone somer's yeah and that is really hard to pull back when somebody else becomes a leader in IT IT actually IT feels like OpenAI number one that I think clear, I think as the rope c is number two. So that shows is what he feels like to me. I lose from people i'm seeing building or the technology using or the innovation that we're seeing from me.

So anthropic ones. So basically they have cloud, which is kind of like chat P, T. But there a couple of cool things.

One of them is great colleagues, computer use specially. You type in the thing, and then you do this and IT moves your mouth, and I just does shit. That's basically the .

summary of IT is your combination of things you could take work flows and like, hey, up, i'm doing this, click this, click that icg do IT over over for me. You could things but like, I think the key thing is and and I think you just releases in beta as leg, like most of these things like IT, cona isn't going to be great now just trust isn't going to be great. And that's what we've been seeing in general as I things just RAM.

And so it's now going to enter your computer is kind of felt like it's been on the cloud only is where is been and now going to show up like in the box you use to, which is your rather your laptop. And there's so much workflow that we do. And yes, every apple put AI in IT and then your interface will also do that.

And I think a lot of like the things they were used to doing, like switching cab and having all these things like they won, feel like at all. why? Like, I should have infinity tabs open, and some system should know Better if I ask you, like bring you back up, right? Like a total need and know we need that.

And so it's kind of like infinite day, the infinite knowledge and reasoning. And then you know me like that's what the A I like that where I think the bridge, you and across ses IT completely changes equation. And the reason I put anthropy c number two is their models are crazy, like impressive, like the new claude monet model is egg.

I feel like I was a step factor improvement over the previous ones. And if he was like the task that I kind of struggled with now is getting Better and both OpenAI and like the object I have been just like bom bom boom. And I don't know everybody he's heard of A I they tried.

They want to try to a year ago, they want to use IT a little bit. But every three to six months, there's just another step, another this step. And that's, I think, the most interesting thing and why why I can pull myself away, right? Like why every night this is a thing that gets me very, very excited um is because the progress is too wild.

People are going to says going to top out IT will I think is be absolutely impressive wharever IT like starts slowing down that right? And we will completely change the way how we do any digital work legs. So you're you're .

messing with IT now, but you have a company. You've got an investment lab. You ve got this whole place, this beautiful boys that were in right now. You've got a wife if you got like all the stuff in life, if you were just twenty one again or twenty two again or you're like to that I got nothing but time bank count empty.

But so is the calendar this and this technologies that, what would you be building? What would you be like messing with? What's the like kind of like you don't need to take over the world event, but just like what types of stuff would you build if I was a Young hacker version of you?

Like right now, i've started seeing agents that, uh, they can do a reason loop. You could to have a interactive and they could have like actions that could perform. And then you combine like, for example, an agent with twitter give IT a twitter account that IT owns and controls so its own distribution and conversational abilities that humans can just interact with, that humans are.

And you gave you give you like a digital bank account. And you know, I third, we're doing a lot of the stuff are on A I we have a whole like A I tool kit, the robot to launch and is around this, which is these like digital things like these agents, they're not to have credit cards is a weird. And the reason I say this is fun and interesting is because, you know, humans have done this very well.

They're created mega one for themselves. And you create businesses and they create A A payment rules around that. So they sell things, they do things, they sell services. And all of these details, I think you'd be something around that.

You'd be like a social, like a twitter account you make like an A I influence .

or type of thing. You know A I influences is like the first obvious art goes too. I think um if I played in this space I would be creating the dish equivalent of a company which is a CEO of a thing, the ability for IT to market and the ability for IT to make money OK.

I don't think not influence fluence. I don't know what I would produce. Drop shaper yes I drop shipper or like, yeah, it's the best fb a amazon whatever.

The example, if you d told me about where the somebody did a thing like this, they made, they made a twitter account, they gave IT a wall at mark entries and gave IT like fifty thousand of crypto. Can you tell this story?

So what what is? yes. So there is this thing called luna, or virtual, and the little platform to, you know, have AI agent run. And I think what's cool as they did this kind of equivalent thing where it's dig as a cyp to bank account and he has like access .

to twitter and you can a marketing stunt by a company that does .

this or I think this is exactly what what i'm describing is favorable fun is play, not like working backwards from giant thing. I think this is this really powerful thing. So there's literally like a live thing where you can watch its reasoning and it's .

like calling its tweet on right terminal virtual. And is this specially leave the thought process of the bot of the agent corrupts.

So this is like an agent. This is what an does right if you think about is started with like a thing like high level planning, current state of execution. So i've done this so far.

What was the directive they gave IT? What do they tell them to do?

I think they told you that you're kind of like a public influence or bot. You have access to crypto. It's a little bit more in the mean coin world of stuff.

So like again, kind of on that side of the puzzle. But today he could negotiate for tokers. IT could buy and sell things. I could kind of Operate together. And I think it's really cold that you .

could actually see that things was, you know, thirty minutes ago, IT says current state execution, I have attempted ten tasso far, seven successes and three failures by twitter matrix show an average ages when on my last, on my recent two years, and I ve lost three followers, observation under score reflection, that's like the function reflect.

And IT says i've mean and engaging with my followers to build a personal connection, which is a later because of the AI bot with replies and quotes. However, I i've also experience some failures and replying to treats due to invalid premature I released on state of mind. I'm feeling a bit concerned.

I'm feeling a bit concerned. That's crazy. I'm feeling a bit concerned about the loss of followers, but i'm also encouraged by the excesses.

I mean, he says plan reasoning. Given my current situation, I need to focus on building religion, their followers and increasing my visibility plan. And then he starts to say what it's going to do, this is wild.

Isn't this like a human? That would be sitting in some growth teams somewhere thinking about how to grow your twitter account? And you know, you could give IT directive, you could give in some direction, and you could let IT compute against itself to compute plans, to reason, to observe behaviors, try to find patterns.

These are like human tendencies, are like human behaviors that we do, right, actually, when we work. And I think this is one of those like perfect leg kind of views were lying. You could start thinking about, man, this is a digital only task.

IT has twitter and distribution marketing ability, and then IT has some payment ability. Like I do not just continue right again, DNA keep going. And you could improve its directive. You could change is incentive. You could do a few different things here, but I feel like we're going to get to a world where and I think sambol and said this, which is like the one person doing company like this is happening, like we're already experiencing another ten x decrease and how many people you need and the abilities that they have, and I think IT goes down to provide one or two earth or in you like that is a total shift. Everything in terms of how we work, how companies are built kind of in my mind.

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is worth checking out? Yeah, I didn't want to tell you about this. A O S D car, like basically know is a very early, uh, experiment. But it's really like a game that fully built in a generation A I model. And so they built a game like my graph and you could just describe a rule that makes you a minecraft role like that. And like every step you take is like not a free program and pixel, it's actually .

generating the Normal game is game maker builds map. IT exists. You then get to run around in a pre defined map, what this is, which is gender, you you give the idea, but then when the character runs in on the fly.

it's creating the map and you're gna play this minecraft h game. And you can see it's like crappy pixel, still like not great resolution, but you can move. And I can do stuff and like whether it's video games that take a lot of effort in time to produce or inside content creation videos and stuff like that is starting to become like, way closer to, like, you know, reality, that a whole movie will be generated on the fly, on exactly what I want. This all paper thing is very list, right, that I was telling you about, right? But really, like, I want to watch a movie someday like that, like the raters lost and i'm going to go and lost this movie after and is going to have this context and it's going to give me like I feel .

good yeah we're like let's printer m. So like A B A highlights, so used to be sports center. If if I didn't watch the games, I got to go to my T, V, turn on S, P, N sports, and I would start, even if I like best ball E, A, wait to whatever rassle all comes up, and they'll have the top ten highlights.

And I watch whatever they picked. Then youtube comes around like, forget waiting. Forget the TV to pick the thing you want.

You can search anything. You could search only staff, curry, three corners. If someone made IT, you could choose the best of that. Now it's gonna like I just say, I just will put on my headset, put on my glasses or whatever. And i'm just going to say, so what happen the best? It'll just start generating a new a highlight reel that didn't nobody has ever created. It'll just make IT based on my prompt and then I might be able to say don't show many laker slip s only show me warriors and it'll just ottawa just on the fly like it's going to be made for me that's interesting.

And and you know like I think it's going to be a an interesting world. We're going to go from human content consumption. People who know humans make content. We're going na like then have machines make IT towards our taste and liking.

And then I think there's always is worried what happens, the humans and there and then I think we get back to that core thing, which is machine will never have true taste, right? Like and I think forever of that creativity is going to come from human. There's always a new thing.

There's new fashion. There's new right of, oh you know content medium. There's new everything. Machines will learn IT and live behind or maybe get ahead of IT. There's always to be another person that shows up and does something different. So I think taste is be the ultimate thing that probably won't go to a machine IT could reason about IT IT could try to invented. But I think we're not that predictable as you mean.

I wanted, believe you, because IT sounds good to me. But then I also think, well, right now, if we said taste is like, you know, what is ta taste selection? It's knowing what's good and what's bad that's kind of taste like tiktok, which is the most popular like the most addictive APP most used up their algorithm is basic, saying i'll choose what's interesting for you and IT does not so well that isn't that kind of taste .

also very like IT is. And IT works .

really well. They don't make the videos.

but amazing, incredible. Uh, IT probably is more like what we want than we will even admit that. Got to want this right?

Like the other. So why is that showing me this? You love IT. why?

Today I was talking about how, like on twitter, my following I love and my for you I don't right but I like, no, really. yeah. Why did they pick?

That's like a status st thing to do. You like, I don't use the algorithms. I hand. I like, I drive stick. Yeah, right? I hand, make things, I cook from scratch like cool, but is out of the box for .

everybody I love to trade up like i'd love to swap with, right? So I don't know he knows you really well, but I think that's what human like. We we're not great and logic sometimes and sometimes we have our own blind spots.

I think this is one of them, things that we we love. Our actions prove IT. We don't we don't want to. And I could be like bad thinking.

I could be like emotional thinking, could be like this, I don't want to love you, but I I do right? There is that element that I think, look, machine, you will be great at this two. They'll learn him as you might become even Better than this.

I just feel like we're just not a little bit not predictable because almost make some dumb choices, right? And that actually part of society and and just humans in general and machines tried to be too perfect. Like my netflix thing is probably accurate for me is also just like, man, like can I just mix IT up?

Can you just like rng, the algorithm dabi, because I just want some different stuff and your colleague driving me down one direction once in a while, like I want us ten, twenty, thirty percent thing. And I don't think algorithms do that exceptionally well. They tested, they threw things up. But no, they don't necessarily try to give you variance.

How long until you think the number one hit song in the world will be adjust to A I, A I created on how many months or years yeah until we see we .

were going over under twenty twenty five. Yeah I might pick the under twenty twenty five like a good bad. Maybe this is a Polly market. Another elections done. Yeah, we do market you like reason that could be something like this.

but like poly market things. So election just happened. Polly, markets haven't like a Victory lap right now.

Yeah, you showed me poly market, I think like years ago and I started making a bunch of D G. Bets before they blocked IT in the U. S.

IT was like IT was always like open for a while, right? But they were doing prediction markets are that is it's a prediction market. But prediction markets a bunch of when I try that they don't like, I just care opinion. What did they do right that like augur and these other guys who are had the same sort of general idea that, hey, we'll be pretention markets like from a either entrepreneurs vel or product choice like any reason you think they won .

that you could you like timing a big part of IT. So like the sweet spot of like people are way more digital. I think we drove a lot of people online like we just SAT at home and we're like, yeah, what is twenty four seven on the internet? IT really exploded the internet. Like I think i've seen some grasses, internet and e commerce and all these things are growing.

And then there's like a massive jump like we at twitch when that happened. And like all the the growth looks amazing. We're crushing all the metric.

Like what did you do? It's like, well, we were here. Yeah right? We are not we don't create the wave.

We surfer wave in a huge wave. Happened after twitter was like fortnight came out and then closed had happened. Two huggers waves back to back that just combined.

So I think is a combination. We're way more digital. I think you talk about this a lot like as a of first concept a long time ago, we are to be more digital now we care more about IT.

I think news and like where we get information from us totally changed leg online, internet, even content and entertainment. Like I have a hard time go into tvs. I look at kids, they look at these tops and TV as like ancient.

So why is this thing on the my mom's sewing machines cool and what do you? And so where we're kind there um and then there's a bunch of these people online that want a like want to stick in this thing, right? Like you're going to root for a team. This politics is also become very poor eyes right through you like a team is like verse blue him. That's really what IT is.

And so I think it's like, what do I do with them now? How do I support IT more? I give more money, do IT, but I can give more attention, right? And so I think a lot of these things are happening in polling market, good flow, good area, right? And then I think for the best thing probably for them, as they ve got a right, right place, right time. Dex, the answer was right. Like if they were wrong, let's say Polly monk was off right, like he was he, the result of the election was something else.

would be a story today would be much different.

right? And have been using to would be a cool thing that kind of didn't work .

here to be right. I think people would have used that to crush to to really rip on them, because like in the way that people are doing with polls, but polls kind of have this like layer of protection around them. Or as I people want to hate on gypt to things, people want to hate on bedding as like to generate behaving in general. I think, I think if Polly market was wrong, the reaction would have been much worse. Then the fact that the polls are wrong, what the reaction is to the polls.

you know, that would have been worse for a little while.

and we would move. You saw this thing about the french sale on the market.

the big will that came in and move.

So there's like the narrative versus reality when the narrative from the polls was it's a toss up raiser, close fifty, fifty election. This guy came in in bed, I think something like thirty, forty million dollars on trump. no.

And people were like, is this guy just trying to manipulate the market? Is the real he just rich billionaire son? Like, who is this? And today I just saw something on my way here.

I don't know the full talk. He was on my phone, but he said he bet, because he believed you when the razi believed is when he did independent polling. He funded his own independent polling and thought and felt that he was getting Better data that was saying that troubles misPriced.

So he's like, I just did a logical, rational thing. I just bet where I thought and as I was misplace, I wasn't trying to. This wasn't political and french. I don't.

What do I? I just said there was money they've made. And so he kind of went counter to narrative and he made, I think, like something like twenty .

thirty million dollars that we use the yeah so there's a whole room entertainment plays to like Better nal like right? Like three .

billion dollars .

where the ring, right? Like you amErica and you everyone else betting from all around the role in this, which I think kind of a hilarious thing .

ah that's sure you have a good contrarian opinion about VR um and in general, this problems some other technology like this three you printing might be one I know you're pretty blush on two but there's these tech things like we are or I think if I walk out to hear and I talked to hundred people about what are you most excited about AI, bitcoin, whatever to be but I said what do you think about VR is I was sort of loop form um in the tech industry.

I think most VC sort of feels like it's kind of a dead and technology. Now we'll be like it's going to be glasses and smart glasses. A, R, that's the future. But you have a different take on V, R. What you've been tell me for a while like, hey, look, oculus sold more units.

Hey, look, you can do this now and you've been staying with IT when I think interest has sort of way the narrative has gone against IT, and that's always where there's big business opportunities. If the narrative goes one way, but the reality goes another, that's where there's an opportunity. Give me A V R text.

So why is VR sleeping giant? Yeah, you remember twenty, twenty. I like ask you for your advice and made you had here. This question is a different version.

Friend right there he sends of the our heads says, like, I know you're not going back to the future.

let me drag you probably cutting this. This is okay, but you know that that's kind of how I think about things. And technology takes a long time. IT typically takes longer to get there than we expect like especially people were early in the industry. We're really wanting to push IT, I mean A I crypto V R or have the same problem, which is early on n people like really pushing IT to sort ready.

So the big hype, the crashes, everyone moves on so that i've been in VR uh few times and it's kind of all say for most people been quiet not thinking about IT, but I think is a leeming giant and I think is a massive sleep ing giant for a few reasons. When I see every day year like here of under zinks that I get a chance to one. We invest in VR companies were one of the few that do right.

We have a whole corner, maybe like twelve debs, that are all billion different VR products. You put them more in one spot. There might be some of the most dentist of interesting VR projects in one place, until what have we seen one quest, one came out.

IT was wireless. IT was kind of crappy, a man I could of my culture in use IT. IT was cheap, uh, became a, you know, great Christmas gift in your two.

They didn't even enter your own. The release quest two. I got even Better, lighter, more powerful.

That quest is coming out. I think they they ve got like five to ten million monthly headsets out there, right? I think that arrival is consoles and my first dog is unit has its sold.

I think quest is .

thirty million is my guess, but you know babies.

So this is quest a quest has sold over twenty million units, with the majority being quest 2。 Quest three is currently sell has sold a million units at the five hundred or Price point. So I think that I mean, if you just I don't know what the math here is, but you know they've done, what is that? Over a billion dollars revenue on prety. Good, fair failure.

Here I pays to P. S. Y. Seals, for example.

And so the first thought for me was, again, what's the first thing is going to happen in the spatial environment? What is a good for emerging gaming? Like these are natural entertainment, right? These are the first few things that was natural, and you had beat saber, you had a few things.

And that was kind of like, you know, here is the first use case. I try to get that out there is try to make the thing happen. And then they kind of goes up, down. People get used to those first experiences. I think you played .

beat saber or .

you have the first three times, then you're like, okay, whatever. And then you know because it's kind of like a cheaper than P S five unit. The quest two was um IT was available in Christmas a few times.

I went to like you know kids like twelve, thirteen, fourteen year old kids kind of getting this thing, like they would be getting A P S five and they use IT and they they don't have the bias that we have of like many years of that. The structures were used to and so a lot of games formed and specifically social games like grill attack. I don't know if you heard about gilot, what is girl? Grill attack is a social multiplayer game really fun.

IT on apple lab did like consume is like shoes. People yeah is like, you know like kind like a fun social game that you can play with a bunch of people you go in, by the way, you go in your game, do there's a bunch like teenagers cream at other. But for them, this is the environment is a new place and they didn't grow up with these other things.

So they're starting with mobile phones. The TV feels ancient, the desk views ancient. And this thing on my face actually feels like more fresh, more new.

So that's we're starting, I think, giro tagesspiegel dollars around. And this is where i'm like, VR is sleeping giant. Um we have a few teams here at our studio.

So we have a team called fluid that building the kind of like best browser in V, R. So you get multiple displays. You get as many kind of tabs as you want. You could customize your environment.

You get A I environmental like I want to be in a cave that like makes you unit cave, right? And then you get like social multiplayer that people can show up in the environment. And we're on apple m does like about five thousand weekly active users, still small team of three dislike know without a big burn can just build this, grow IT or not even in the story yet.

We're in like this psych. Apple b is like kind of the free store where we could just try people to IT, but we're not getting anything directly from the store except our insurgence, right? And you know five thousand people that go in use.

The productivity thing, there's no product called eps. So like the second game behind grow attack song team, absolutely crushing jeeps. yeah.

Y E E P S. Uh, really fun game. Uh no um we should play together in the system.

They're here. There are how many people .

I think they're like less than ten people, the more like six to eight and most of them was built with a few .

people and this is profitable or what's a deal?

Yeah, I mean, i'll let them talk about their numbers. So no, I don't want anything.

But on a scale of that's pretty good to like, wow, where's IT that? Wow, it's wow. Yeah, it's wow. So what's cool about this is like supply demand, right? So like you can go be you APP number, you five million in the store right now or if you're talented, you could be like one of the top one VR apps if you put in like a year of hard work.

I about using like kind of round numbers or whatever, but it's the same way that right now, if your content creator, you go post on instagram, pretty tough post on linked in, you'll get tons of distribution to you out if you're half decent content because there's just no supply of quality content. So even if V R is not you know like twenty million units is very good. But even if it's not just like becoming this like global phenomenon to be a great business and and if you just keep writing the wave, you're very well positioned yeah to be the leader and then everyone at that point will look back and like, yes, because they started five years ago and this was a smaller in emerging take .

everything I found as we do emerging tech. I think the theme of all of them is survive if you make IT to when the industry happens, and you will grow with IT. If you were a small percent of the industry and the industry grows by like one hundred degree, you grew by a hundred text or more.

You've had already been there. And i've seen a few small percent teams at like ten million plus a year, like five people, totally profitable, totally able to do IT is is a VC investable business. Honeywill care.

yeah. Like what I care about is like this is interesting. And can you make these bit without massive capital like expenditure, right?

Like if IT takes like fifty million dollars bill of V R game, like the big giant Walker st. movie. I don't that those best one excite me.

I think one is like three to five people can be somewhere the limit amount of money and just them like them in the hook. Like the baseball analogies, like, great, we have everything we need. We have all the talent, we have all the ability.

The tools are amazing. Now, like, you know, all the game engine are perfected themselves over time. And then now the environment forming, right? Meta has LED IT rise, like the quest, and is the VR world.

And then we're seeing glasses vision pro ray bands like the trend is like we're going to have computer in our spatial view, right? And I think that's the big like, yeah, this is happening in the V R. The plus plot forms.

interesting. You could build a profitable business or a fairly big game right now. Also, look, this isn't slowing down. And historically, apple in the entire industry, they come with the unit is okay as a lot of things, I got ta get Better, other unit comes out and then you have snap, you have Better with ray bad. Like I mean.

like this is not stopping, is not giving up going to the end game here. Apple probably also want to stop. So any of the two biggest players, they're they're gna keep baking in the hardware Better.

They're going na be super hunger for content. And the other sneaky thing about this, by the way, that I I didn't really fully realized until we have silicon valley. A lot of these require I really specialized talent.

So I member, when I first met you, you were like, i'm really the big data. You started saying words like hadoop. I don't know what the hell you were talking about.

IT wasn't as popular back. This is like fifteen or something like that when you were told me like, hey, I think this is think this big data aching learning is really interesting. You were again pretty early onto that crypto.

Same thing you're early on to that. There were in a lot of smart contract developers. There wasn't a lot of um no big day of people AI.

So then if even if you don't have a hit product, if you just assemble like a plus talent as super specialized, then as those platforms rise, your team itself becomes like a hundred billion dollar asset. And if you built today for like cosmetic ribands, like that product actually hit for for facebook and they're going to keep going with that. Everybody wants to be in the glasses.

Think people think glasses the next platform. So you build a specialized team that's good at developing for that platform. There's just not a lot of great teams that do that. That's one hundred million dollar team even without a hit product or was IT the hit product, you get a billion dollars already .

was IT to find a IOS developer when we were starting to do mobile, feel specialized. We A P, P, that like a ridiculous level of Price to go, go, go, get pretty good talent. And that they remember twenty twelve.

which was not even early. We had one. I stave on our entire team. And IT was so hard of her hurt talent, IT was faster to just retrained. So we used we to stop working in the IOS def trained all of our other debts to be good enough to be dangerous because he was so scarce to get good idea, even that compared to like the either the fancy A I stuff or you know V R mixed reality all that.

I just think that when I think about kids grown up and all the less thirteen and fifteen year old kids, or somewhere the teenagers, they have a mobile phone that is attached to them, they think is superior in a computer or a desktop because it's with them. And then we're going to take the second computing interface, where we do more work or more immersive experiences. And we put IT around your eyes.

That makes way more sense to me than TV test tops and even laptops. And you know that doll like one of the thought where we started flew IT like we talked about this in twenty twenty. I don't know.

You remember there's one project that used to tell me you you're like I work in VR crick. I did that experiment where I worked in R R. again.

And then I ended up doing that for a few months, by the way, like, and I was like, this is great. And I had been like, literally sitting with me. I think this one of the reasons why actually built a studios like I wanted do all these ideas.

I can no longer to do them all. I could pick a few. I prove you didn't even, even go do more, but league, I just want to find really hungry people.

And like matching together, right? That's what I found. John f. leu. IT is like he was a PHD student.

You going to go do something in my finance and high frequency trading and like whatever. And he also came to this idea. OK when I doing well, like you know masters whatever. Um I was writing this, I just wanted to go into a focus mode like, but I was going to a cave and like block out all the stuff.

I gud all these VR friends that I had done some stuff in VS like I tried to do IT and IT wasn't good enough, right? And you going to left that that we were talking about IT and he talked bear. And because I did, you just start to work out.

I think he's got like five pages of like random notes and ideas around this. And then that responded and like, cool, like we're not going to blow ourselves out. We're not going to go raise a lot of money.

We're not going to go get a giant team, get three people here. Where is you to grind and work hard and build and survive for one? This happens.

I'll miss some bets like that will gain ridiculous amount of knowledge of like the industry and then we find the sleeping giant in this egg. Yeah, we're going to double down, right? Like a bear went to this, like V, R, conference of the media connecting.

And he had a teacher and were like, the funny thing would be like on your shirt is what I invested. We are right. And is he did there's like, well, like, found one a .

gypo conference.

The zing is how we want to think about is I try to be there early. Don't get too caught with where the technologies now. Don't get too scared of how far is twenty five, twenty sixteen member we heard self driving cars are never gonna en I don't know you remember yeah massive like push against IT and there's way was run around every day. Now see more way mos at night driving around and like regular people driving.

So here's a deal. I made most of my money from a newsletter business. He was called the hostel, and there was a daily newsletter at scale to millions of describers.

And IT was the greatest business on earth. The problem with IT was that I had cost of forty employees, and only three of them were actually doing any writing. The other employees were growing the newsletter, building up the tech for the platform and selling ads.

And honestly, IT was a huge pain in the by today's episode is brought to you by beehive. They are a platform that is built exact for this. If you want to grow your news letter, if you want to monetize a news letter, they do all of the stuff that I had to hire dozens of employees to do.

So check out out behav dot com. That's B E E H I I V dot com. You've told me once before you go, I think my superpower is that i'm usually in the in the first thousand and ten thousand people to try any new technology.

And I understand, be able to play with IT. No, I see IT all that. I remember we were at work and you're were buying the a theoria presale, the ico or whatever .

the first said, I don't know.

Remember I really like, can we do some real work? What do you do in the theory um name that names .

up all night reading like the people I was tell .

you .

this is probably I you know what I said, what Price per bunch of age in years does I do that? I don't know what this is. We have nothing really. You're like a theory of the names, stupid.

I was not shocked that up for .

another another l for .

me could been lay right. But I think that's true that that is just power. And then you said another thing today, which I hadn't her, which is for emerging tech, there's only one rule survive because and that reminds me we had I just did a pod with ryan Peters and he created flex part give.

He said the same, same principle. He goes, know what I realized was I cannot control the timely. I don't know how long some things going to take to work.

So all I focus on is, how do I just be default ve? How do I just stay in the game? He goes, I just have the confidence that if I mean the game all just keep trying shit until IT works.

I just believe that about myself. I will just keep trying things until I figure of things work. Only way I can lose is if I have to get out of the game, which is like I can meet usually like I run out of funding, I can't control my design.

I spend too much money and burning too much capital. And so he's like, that's been the name of game for me from when he was flipping scooters on ebay to now run the multi p billion dollar called flex port. And the whole time is like, my whole thing is I can control the time mine. So i'm going to a control staying the game because if I stay in the game.

I went staying the game with great talent and people that want to have this one. Her minds said, no, you know, I think there's a lot of people that you can take short term wind and they should like we've done that right? There are these short term movements, and this is great for us right now, but we're going to keep doing more.

And like I think that's anything for me. Technology takes a long time when IT hit, so we haven't very fast. Like that's the part that thing people don't realize.

They like underestimate how long is going to take and the other estate how fast is going to happen, like immediately. Gal, just like happen. And you know, I think uber was an example like that.

Like we thought he was black cars like expensive taxi that nobody is going to use. And then now I take, do this place doesn't have uber. Like, how my movie, but I can't IT feels like that.

And so I think I enjoy IT. This is one reason why, like, like a life wrong game, I got to play technology forever. I could learn about things. I don't have a rush to be there first.

I don't have a rush to be like, I didn't know everything and I do everything and raise the most money and get a brazilian people more like, I need a few people with me that like, I really excited about this. They see IT like, I see IT. But where does he go on this mission? And luckily now I have the ability to just like fun that and like create my like environment to do IT.

That's what this building is. So this others building because you um you basically built like your dream like man cave in a way I think kind of found a dream like and I wanted talk about that because you had a big success with apple .

lovin where and actually kind .

of like felt like there was multiple moments where you know IT was successful. One point is sold for like two billion dollars. I was like go ex IT two billion, amazing. And then like trump blocked data .

and go through, go through.

But then during that I met this is a crazy story. He was like, we were sitting in the office and the news happens, like to congrats, that's amazing. A whole shit. And then like nine months goes by, the deal doesn't like fully get approved because there was such a big purchase out of a chinese company group or something like that. And in the meantime, the business just kept crushing.

So the adam, who is the c of that you say you like, basically went back, was I cool? We will still do the two billion, but now it's for thirty percent. I don't know the exact version of that.

Yes, there was like.

I don't know, like majority of that was a and so now then the company events to ibs. You get this mistake right? IT sound like OK. I could do whatever you could go over retire. You can go buy islands and cars or do rich guy stuff like you could do that and instead you like chose to do something else. Can you just describe a basic like what's the mindset? What's the conversation you had with yourself and now that you had more resources to do whatever you wanted to do?

Yeah, I feel like mother life. I've just always wanted a to tinker and build stuff that guys describe IT as like I love taking stuff apart, putting IT back together. It's not like some people say it's like you, anna, learn how to work is not that is more the puzzle and how does somebody else put this, like, you know, and easy, do this with cars and computers? Grow up.

I got over like my computer, and now I would make my car faster. And like, that was like kono, just like the mentality that I had. And then I was like, okay, well, I gotta come in adult some point time and do the thing.

But like here, I like this business thing. I buy and sells stuff as I go away for me to hostel and kind of do more of what I want to do. And then like, limit, keep tween this and then maybe at someone I got get a real job and kind of luckily, like tech was really valuable and like my skills that improved, I got Better at IT. And but a lot of that early journey was like more solo than like with a bunch of people um and then met the guys adam before apple love in like connect these other other things that knew was you like eight people in my polar alter like building cool random ABS like the energy from there every day was like through the roof and then lucky for no was like the same thing but like even more. But I think I used to tell you that I want an airport hanger I just want to call stuff in IT and uh, I just think he was like that before I started foundering as IT is because I was a twitter like I got to here in the instant instance thing.

And why, by the way, I don't think i'm .

a good employee. I think i'm like looking for a few rules and is typically .

a good mind stuff without much was very crazy.

We do another point. I feel like the first weaker month of, like, yellow, too, a bunch of stuff. And then I slowed down, like, why I want to do more, like, I want to do more things.

In this resistance feeling of leg, we really thought about this. We tried this, I knowers go do stuff and and never enjoyed that. And I think startups and small teams, just because you are so much to do that, that kind of mentality.

And so I talked to probably like seventy five to one hundred founders ies before starting founders in. And I really wanted to learn this. I knew a bunch of people are you interact with them even.

I like bibo and mucky for, no, i'd have them come by and like just a little talk. Whatever i'm going, I really enjoy that. That was like fun.

I had had to enjoy investing a lot, which was a cool. I thought I wanted to do that, but I wasn't fun. IT was like, meet great, talented people, get excited about them. And then you're like a monthly update away, like going to check. And then and this been fun.

First meeting is great.

It's a great first day. I walk away.

unlike the no relationship you like happened a great first day.

exactly. And so I was like, man, I don't really want to do that at something like this where I could help these like early entrepreneurs s things that i've just done over over again. I didn't have this like, what's the version of that and I talked to a bunch of founders and um they'll said something to me.

I was like, what do you need? Like what help do you need? I thought they're always say money and I must start of fun like that why I thought wasn't happen and they all said something different they said something like I need people who understand my problems and we used to do those masterminds um and he was really about like who do you go to for founder problems yeah so what are your founder problems there your confounders, your employees or your investors so you can go to any these people there might be the problem, right? And so who do you go to?

Or even if they're not the problem you need to present, you don't want to worry your employees, you don't want to worry your investors. You have to maintain a certain or of momentum and moral so you can just go be dumping problems on them or be like, I don't know, like you're supposed to know you're the guy.

We would go in that room, a little circle room with the circle table. We've been there, I don't know the talking again, going to come out with something different. We could talk about anything and then leave the room, be like now we're store.

We are yeah and I think you know code founder can be that for you. A lot entrepreneurs acting out, they don't have that. And even if they have IT, there's like other things that are experiencing.

And so when we used to put these folks together in these gum masterminds, that feeling was like awesome. And I felt like we could relate. And actually I heard the same thing from a bunch of found as they talk to.

I was like, I think is something more like this, where I could do something and put everybody in a box. And I thought I was very more digital, I think cover times and started on disco. I started on discord.

I mean, like far za bin was in these groups, like the three few others, like. IT was the people I knew around me, and click ahead. IT was digital.

We were talking every week. We would give ourselves these accountability on our ships set. We would have an area to talk about stuff, and you could see the dots connecting.

And then I got an opportunity to like, get this space, and i'd been looking for like something and know I wouldn't like all services in the place and from the barrier. And Normally, so this is the best place for me as a look, as I can become on the water kind of place like that. So that is like weird opportunity to find this space.

And I really make a bet when my nobody else was, I think he was like late twenty is when I approached them here yeah. And I took maybe like nine months to figure out loud and know this. We must like renovated and stuff like that. It's still very much. We get to call another call about breaking.

At least he wants to sign this right now. Come on and feel like here.

I mean, this place for Mason has three hundred events a year. They want to zero with cove. Um all the places you know, our galleries, our schools like what do what do you do like? no. And this would be like this innovation place and the little bit old, let's come.

That's one of your tricks, is that you don't run away when the dips happened. I remember when uh early on twenty fourteen, fourteen and like that um we meet I buy bitcoin because know you're to crib people in office may be I was done about p GPT was all eo mining bitcoin on our servers. So I buy some bitcoin and literally like the next week I get like super convinced m like I guys I see IT I believe here's why I believe i'm giving you my case. I bought yeah great. Like the next week, Price cuts in half and goes down like three hundred box, some like that and I will came in, i'm my god, the vehicle and I was .

really whatever we what you were like.

oh, this is great because now everything half off like you later told me that you believe that if you buy now, you can cut your byline basically even to go down by fifty years, you'll cost average in half the amount. And I was like, h, he's right. I was just running a roll coaster of, like, know, I was doing what a cliche person would do when things are good.

This is great when things are bad. Maybe it's not great or as you were like to do anything actually change or just external. And so I bought more. So I think you that there was a very good you know, decision at the time to go buy more when things are down. I think you've done that with with other bets, whether it's sanford al real state during the covet time or it's but the script to or or VR when things go out of fashion, I feel like you don't run away.

which is I feel import. There's a signals like things go out of fashion and there is another place where the people who don't shape nervous typically like i'm technical, I live in these. I get hub projects, deliver the builders are like engaged with them if I see that somewhere, we're like, huh all the people talking or like against you these people like nobody told him and that like is done like, oh, this is dead right they are all saying IT and then these guys s are shipped more good to like hate and and may tell you to over what do you talking about? I don't care like and just think that's a perfect environment .

and even if you're right, one out of five times like that, you'll be right in such a big .

way that he works out. And then by away from me, just fun. So like, this is fun. Like I love building stuff, like building technology. I did a lot of software, obviously, because there has been magical to develop things and like distributed to the world, we have some harder of projects I .

don't have remembred, Jimmy, by the way. Yeah there we at one point in time when when we were working together, we had an idea for a was cool, was like a voice controls, kind like a extra. Yeah, we call a jammy. I do. I like jam E, I to like the name that was good. And what you were saying was, like here, like we can, instead of creating of everyone was trying to create device portal, was trying to create a screen, amazon trying to create a screen you're like that makes IT expensive if you're like, everybody body has TV screens in their house. What if you just plugging like a crown cast and now you turn your TV from just a blank screen into like, and amazon like likes a thing that was cool didn't do because I was huge distraction like this is he .

was just like you and all of the electrical lion dollar companies .

are going to go after the same prize like them you can but do you really want to like, you know this but is Better to do things they're overlooking? I just think it's i'm good advice to be fair. We also we're going to do a cyp to exchange with cypher got out and he was like for a different reason is like having to rich.

I don't want to lose everything and I really know what cryo is, is twenty teen. The cypher might just be like super illegal and I don't want to risk at all on that. If we had done that might have been good. So you to be careful, like even really smart, successful people, they can't like just take their word. You got to have the independent mindless.

And you, I think is fun to take shots. Don't get job n over IT. Like ten people follow up with the ideas. I think that IT took me probably like going to know ten years to figure that out lag.

You have to get a like almost egg you have they really take the hits ah, you like really like live in that. Like there's a lot of ideas. I may try a lot of them.

My mission is in all of them. I've got to find the right ones. I can really, and the energy on thousand talk about one more. So we built chat heads, which bit now in the air world.

we were refused in ahead and yeah well.

we could generate images for, like I know five thousand and that's what IT that's what he feels like. But I think it's like cool, like whatever technology you have today, go try to produce a thing. IT might not be the right time and the right moment.

The media might be wrong, team might be wrong. Some of those you should pursue again and again, and some of those a great learning exercises to build on top of of. And I know going to change with me a lot of people who were professor athletes, and they won't have been.

A lot of them talk about is like, no baseball. My end like my career will end up like thirty five. That's my game is done. Now what do I do? I think what we get a chance to do, whether it's like business or do you know content or like building stuff, like I going to do this for us to realized I want I think .

that's a fun buffets like something yes. Yeah still on the top of his investing game.

exactly. And so it's like like what am I in the rush for? Like, I not just here to like, enjoy the journey, but I also don't want to be like, i've got to solve IT tomorrow, right?

When I was Young was a guy. I got to be millionaire. What is like at some point is like, unknown man. I just want to keep doing this right and if I need, like how will my way to IT or not like this really matter? Like, you know, I took a android engineer job and monkey fero, yeah cause was I do this ah I think my word, by the way, I just learned you .

full be like I was .

going I going to get any somehow and like I knew we need to do great stuff here. I've ttl show IT. Like i'm not afraid to put in the effort. We need to put in the effort.

I also not afraid to like not rush to the answer, right? And like you don't want to be like casual and I wait, you want to be kind like in the middle that you won't to went to attack and went to not alike. I know you ve got to enjoy IT otherwise .

you all has the best code on this. He says impatients with action, patients with results, is the unBeatable combination. If you ever go again, somebody who's going to Operate like that will win.

You cannot lose. If you going to be constantly impatient with doing things, you're not going to sit back and hope that all happens. You you impatience and patiently for results.

The hard part. A lot of founders are impact action and impatience for or non founders are you know patient with both and then nothing ever happens. So you have to get that .

combo yeah speaking of founders.

you worked with adam at apple ven and apple lovin and has been like kind of a staggering company because, you know, when I met you, I was no a successful company. You told me the stories about before you guys started that here like we were wanted around we tried to bunch of different, different ideas. We're playing fee fox because know were doing and we were just come in trying to figure out if we didn't have IT. We will brainstorm and go home the next day um what is special about that guy with a superpower from him or a story from him that you remember that I can learn from you? Anybody to listen this can learn from?

Yes, there is just like four year period sh when I was there, I think three year years of IT was like not upload IT. So like most of my intersection, there is like not what IT is today, but I did good a sense, been a lot of time with him and idea what's the clifton ts .

of histories so people know, because people don't know, is pretty .

under the radar, right? Yeah I mean, story. I think he did some stuff in like equations are trading at some point. I think he got into like ads at some point though, like marketing and a feeds stuff. He built a few different products. Maybe he was a key member of the team and then he had A A few companies, I think, at that actually built up some leg, you know. Well, I don't know how much I was, but there was enough where, like, you're like, okay, this person can make this bed and like fund Operations.

So was kind of self funding.

self funding him and his guy. John, john, the last stuff, the internet is more the technical animals are more the business person. They were both unions and the skills incredible, like their personalities is incredible.

For adam, I think the thing that I felt the most was egg, I think is the first time of my life I was egg man is what a plus execution looks like. Like this guy just hit IT. Like if we were talking about something we made a choice within, like I felt within minister was egg.

Deliver to this team live when you're like in eight person team is really easy to do IT you will something go slow? Maybe next week I will do IT later will make these role changes later. I'll tell everybody later knows that immediate.

And when IT was, like, moving on from something is immediate. When I was a new idea, what I wanted to do is immediate. When he was something else was immediate.

IT was just like, I felt like this. What execution is is like you know think, decide at and like how fast you run through. That depends on like the moment you decide. The delay on act is like usually a problem. I think this were most I am not graded this myself, but i've got one a chance to see that. I think he was kind of similar in a different around when I met you was like, I think this person is product thinking and like ability to like unpack like a complex thing, like product or distribution or abt motivation or whatever.

Like you see a plus talent and you're like you wanna do IT um for me as a ten twelve years almost like a solo founder journey, like add e commerce company at these other little things I had like I started by people with me, but I never saw some videos that I was like you like I want to learn these skills and I bring something to the table as a plus. I can pair with this a plus person and now we're going to be like a super power, right? I felt out with that.

I was very clear and obvious like the size of company, I don't want to say not a surprise, but also is not a surprise that this kind of person would go do IT like, like, just is dad. I think the same thing you're talking about, like ryan flex port IT, feels like some people are just like you're built for that. You still need a lot of stuff to go, right to make a tongue decisions and a ridiculous team. One thing .

i've come to learn is that where I think we screwed up because we did monin fero, which was basically our little idea lab. We had a beautiful set up like you got funding already done. You have great team, your inferences go beautiful office, really talented team like you know, we're not the paypal of movie but like ever is gone on to do kind of interesting shit.

Everyone know I don't think we had the level of success that we could have given the talent. My take was I think we were good execution and maybe even great execution, but poor project selection meeting we were going after these. Like moonshots, I create the next hit social media APP, which is like, you know no, there's been like seven ever.

There's not that many of them ever to exist. So you know, I think we did bad with project election IT seems like one thing to admit, aside from great execution, was project election. I think you told me some story about like they went to some conference, you guys we're working on one thing altogether and he came back and had that very quick like think decide act loop or he's like we're doing a mobile ad network.

We're doing mobile games. I don't know the full story, but like, yes, seems like just that one choice at that time. Yeah, is that make a break?

I like a huge difference. And you know, like, I think we had many of those moments. I ouldn't trade IT, by the way, I think our learnings, I still lovers them. A lot of the things that we talked about, how we rent the teams like they still radiant resonate with me and to leg immense the wealth and knowledge and leg like literally like experience of .

the thing beyond like you time we when exactly .

there are a few moments where product selection could have been massive for us and that outcome know we can talk about with a little bit on that that journey like we did blab. IT was a live stream import of google hangout public lifestream. Yeah, like if you saw clubhouse feel very popular.

we had built basically a clubhouse before clubhouse. And IT got to like what twitch right now.

there's a big section of this, like just chatting and an alcohol. Gc, right?

We build them up like that. I got to four million users, but he didn't become the next thing.

I don't member this conversation, but we had this one time and we were deciding what to do. I would do the mobile version of this because we see other things happening. Or do we do the P, D, B version? yeah. And zoom didn't exist. And I think that we were like.

be to be member there was like IT was like so short of a conversation which was so silly, we were just like, baby, that's not cool IT wasn't .

cool and IT wasn't clear because you everything was is like two thousand fifteen, there wasn't a billion like B2B com panies cru shing IT ah. But like every year since I was like seven or nine, like because I think at that time I was that only a few had really reached like girls like I don't know, a box dot net and drop box and .

wasn't as obvious at the same time. IT wasn't as hidden as we .

remember.

Cricks was like a multibillion dollar product. And matrix is on mine, was the way that people do. These wears webinars and web conferencing at the time. And IT was so bad. And their users, like we were trying to make this cool social APP and p and oracle we're using our to edge was Better even though was like for .

your color like weird and purple do you got this a great star instead .

of looking at those clues and being like, huh maybe we can do that. We we missed that project election choice. I remember that day because I was that was a probably a multiple million dollar fork in the road moment, you know maybe.

but you still have the execute. But sure, I mean, we could execute right. But did we have the right election and could we get the right inside in our mind to except, uh, is also when we decided to end blab, I don't have remember you went to this barbecue if go, he met James clear and they were telling us, yeah, you're talking about like this content network problem because IT was like the moment that entering or month oh should refute that.

I would felt like like we don't have the ability to intersect these and we kept look at that tweet like why? okay? So we know we do because people come on for an hour, they do to show the epic content is not on long enough for people to show up and intersect with them.

How come twitch wins? And then he turned out that people play game for eight to ten hours. yeah.

So you didn't matter when you showed up here.

And then the content reset. So was like, I I was like the feeling a lot of mock for no to me, like the things we built was like, is not slow down and speed up. But I look for the clues.

Don't be afraid of that. And again, the eager know the ego. The stuff is like we want to build a giant social APP like I want to go somewhere around the world where somebody he's using lies.

Consumer product like that was a stubbings that we found the driver talk. yeah. And I think if we had just kind of a marked a little bit through as these project election moments.

And so there is a lot of that I still feel that sometimes, but I don't know, maybe because i'm holder and I my last willink to like in that way, but I didn't want to talk about one more harder are robotic exchange a few minutes. And so I think this is another like resurgence moment happening. Like for a long time, hardware has been too hard, too expensive. Software gets funded.

That's not right. Hardware is hard hardware.

hard software, easy software skills. It's eaten the world. And these are all the mentalities. I think it's flipping and I think it's a few things that have all kind of a showed up together. So there's two types of harvard that I think are now like there and like right to build same recipe.

Can small teams do IT? Can you do IT without a lot of funding? And then can your output be really big and like impact a lot of people? And so I think there's one wrong consumer products.

So like the combination of rasberry pie and cloud, he has completely changed what IT takes to build something, right? So there's a company in our studio, magical toys are building a teddy bear, a little demons. What kind of get to that? And you know .

I think that and I think for teams like twenty four, twenty five and as huge funding or huge tam.

but he's able to showed here. I don't know how I got here, to be honest. I think many people here, they meet somebody the attract and what just show up.

By the way, it's awesome. Like we've created that environment where can make sense. He had done some small projects in college like he built this inkle death but he was a little like e ink cream with like two eyes that is blink. And I was really you going .

to talk to you got anything .

was just one and that's cool. One of my desk guy, I guess this fun and um the very sure a bunch ideas and you know the combination of luk, we got as very pires we could do these little things, we these three d pnas build enclosures and now we got this cloudy.

I think that like can be working powerful the of coming with this no idea which was like you're going to build a toy and first, they literally made ted stuff, the animal ted minute talk, like IT ago. This is a wild like, you know, I could do this, but everyone's going to make coding faster. Or they know developer solving developer problems.

And I love when somebody takes that and goes, let me go to the other place where nobody is thinking about, right? And he spent probably the last nine months of sitting refining. I think we sentient, want the first units by broke the first thing.

first gave me a teddy bear with the back, like the whole computer. Is that hanging ing out the back like like a half done surgery. But I was interesting. I gave you to my kids. I think they were probably like two years old, three years old at the time.

And every other toy we have in our living room is preprogrammed that's a toy burden IT this thing that all you can do with this toy I was like for, ignore the thing hanging out the back IT was like. Um hey, we look, poppet rol, can you ask us some popt al trivia? Certainly I can tell you popt rol, who is the red dog and publish like martial, correct.

And as a cake, can you keep track of our point? OK two points. And that was a world that and my kids were blown awake, is now you have an infinite toy where every toy is fine. I can only do the things I could do out of the box. Now, suddenly, even to that, basically chat B T shoved into a stuffed animal and you're like, well, now, now I can do anything I can say, seeing me a song I can say, tell me a bit time story I can say I can make you do many, many things now.

And I think that was cool, is fourteen and there's little like lab that we build. The lab has like some Green printers, some electronics area. Honestly, we started with like an empty room and people would come by.

That was this from form be a machine of ctr lab one day. Can I use IT? And like, yeah, but we have nothing here.

What you need? You need tables. Great, bring tables. You need like a little thing, okay? Add that you need three pinners add.

And i've seen now, like tens of people come through all you know one person sit there, spend some time tinker and fifteen did that. Like he built one, he showed us. He built another, he tried.

Different varies, different versions built, right? New cases when you printed buying rather relies new software. And I I think you should like sixty to seventy units across four to six months, which in software rule, this feels like, wow, ancient, like sixty users in harvard.

This might cost like half a million to a million dollars. I think we do that like fifty, two hundred grand, right? So like that difference, one person, three d printing ers, razor pie, some ai.

And you could just sit there and deliver units and try with people. When we showed the bear first, by the way, internally here was like, not going weird. His daughter use IT and IT changes mind.

Like, like he changed his mind, right? Because he saw what he could do. But like, and how do you get that opportunity to prototype.

right? So hardware being hard, not like maybe hard work is not as hard as he used to be. That like sam calls these inflections where you know something changes like there's famously an inflection where when a obama care came out, then Oscar health built a thing that was just to do obama care and like, you know how became like a billion dollar like so what are the inflection?

So oh, phones now have GPS um in them. Now you can build over. You couldn't build over before because the driver and the rider needed to find each other. How are they going to do that if you didn't have phones, G.

P, S, on them?

A phones have cameras. Now you can have instagram. And IT was like the technology inflection can happen to one type of inflection. And you're basically saying, because of rasberry pie plus A I plus .

three d printing to .

tumor harder is possible. More two people can actually mess around, tinker till L I get something right. Kind of wasn't feasible five.

ten years ago when we be a jam. I use A I P at the time, which was the first version, pressure, but I was taught of as a hobby est market of tinkers, that they are going to buy a few of them. They, they have, like sixty million units or something, thirty five books of pop, sixty million, just like a few billion dollars of roseberry pie out there.

And I think what I did is you used to have to make custom board customs software. You know, for a technical person like me, I don't want to go that far like I have certain skills that I could do really well. And typically it's like read a few guides in the internet and I stitched stuff together, felt too far for even like something like me.

I felt like release years engineering and ten people, million dollars convent, some IT is a big market. And now I build up this, a company which probably will fail because I raised too much, too much pressure, too much demand on return extra. And to be the rose pie was one of the unloved.

And there's the NVIDIA jetson now, which has a GPS on device. So much more there. But so what are what are other things .

besides magical toys that you saw? Somebody built interesting things. You're built in the hardware robotics.

yes. So we have a who is building the university. He built the first version, which I think before was a brain computer in face. Now you have a second version um that's really tiny, is like the size of airports. You can put IT right here special purpose.

So really like the ability to prototype, develop the thing, get like hundreds of thousands of units out there, improve the design and doing that without giant team allows them to have continue. We've seen like a variety of things kind of come out on on that front. I think the second area that happening is the consumer hardware. And then there's like this robotics, drones and kind of this other world were they have so much physical equipment in the world, forecasts and long mores and cars and like in all these things that we do um that requires either person like you know with drones we invest in this company loser drones, which you know they built a power washing drone, could go up in buildings, get power wash, you know the glass set of people hanging from the side. There's another company that and is that .

working like to people?

Is that like, yeah working very well. And you know like what's interesting is there is like a unique business model to find here as well. And I think is the way I love like being in the week a little bit and like seeing IT is like most of them, you're going to build this product and then you going to take the people that like manually wash a building and you're going to get rid of them. What actually happens is there's A A team that's like a little like small business somewhere. They have like five people of their company.

Dave power wash, there is a great day line .

as well. And you know people into finding that if you just sell to those those small businesses, you give them more tools, they can serve more buildings, do him more efficiently, that distribution is built. And then maybe in the long way, this starts changing.

But like now, there are ten of these opportunities. I've seen one for farms, and like you mowing the weeds around certain fruits or conic inspecting them, you just send people between these things, go like do IT. And now there's a little like robot.

And instead of the one person doing IT for two weeks for two people, the one person they are monitors IT have the facility in her conditioning and watching on the ipad, watch on ipad and at the honor might to fix that thing. This efficiency, I think, is like massive, and we're seeing in many places. So same thing.

I saw these two guys building her, and this killed their leg. Random warehouse in the back of some other store, like two goods, like literally grounding, boot trapping, like I just going there. My god, like these guys, they took a four clift.

They automated IT. They took self driving car tech, probably to billions of dollars to develop. And that all that kind of float like open source and typically open source sometimes is behind and the cutting.

But in ten years that the Normalizes ah we see this elsewhere, like I models like lama, but like really they took cameras and some lighter stuff and they scrapped a little computer to a forklift and they can move IT around. You could talk to IT, you could come to get IT to do things. And I think is a massive resurgence.

So for the physical thing, you took a little razberries e internet, some cameras, some technical like we were doing computer vision technology to score, like for nine games. They are using the same kind of technology to look at. Oh, this is a box.

This is a barco that I picked up, right? I can now use and figure out, was this thing I could go walk around the world house of that palin wrong spot, how IT is, again, the work code, and detect other this power. Suppose be over there. Go pick IT up, move IT over there, like these problems existing where house is like, I mean, I think you've got.

I run a warehouse.

So to me, as I G, what are the machines like? What are the traditional machines we've built probably for the last hundred years that you're going to slap a little computer on IT and not a superpower. And I think this is bringing down the cost of like this robotic hardware, building a robotic arms used to build like you.

I've got to be like tony, stand like airman. I think people, people do IT in a machine shop. There's a guy, I don't even know, computers showing you just had a three d put in hand on his death.

And like that, was this so good? Yeah, like I, I, I created the ability to develop the full hand with all the fingers and everything. Injustice three printer is a bamboo lab printer, which honest three printer is dray.

And the the bamboo ABS took IT to home another level, like little bit of AI to help self leveling and make prints great. And like everybody loves IT. And he has built his hand pretty high quality, took a little fishing net on the inside of the hands, like in each finger he could like, pull ery finger.

And I do some stuff like one do like a few months hacked on and like I know all didn't produce from that, but I just think you could do these things now and like weeks and months when they took years and like a lot of money. I think there's a huge opportunity here, still going to take time to like marinade and develop. But I look at as one of those things are like if I was a mechanical engineer, I like hardware and i've been told that is just A I M software.

Like your stuff isn't that interesting? No, no, this is very interesting right now, right? You need to find a place to do IT.

And you know, like I even say, like I think we're going even further for us like we have this basically build here. We call the founder lab like this were all people become the tinker on stuff we have founded here. We have builder with craters here.

We've all kinds of people doing stuff. But the little machines job, and that kind of push us to be like weight. There's more we're seeing more.

We're talking to more people thinking about this as I ended up getting this kind of industrial space and called the garage is twenty thousands perfect of industrial space, I showing a little bit, but IT looks like itself is the real state is not the best. I think this is the time to make these best. But i've talked to.

Twenty five to fifty founders in the last twelve months that need a hardwar Epace l ike t his t o t inker t o h ave s ome m ore p eople a round t hem. They have the machines around them to just being able to develop IT, probably for less than one hundred grand. They can go and proof of concept and prototypes thing.

And look, we're seeing the hype cycle of like human oye robots, right? That's that like hype above. I'm more excited about all these start up that at the form they build this expert teeth, they're gonna a hundred million teams, whether the product or their knowledge, right? That's happening now.

And two people are doing IT like every single day like this, bonding these things. And so consumer harper is is one area. But I think robotics and what typically was known as a deep tech, like I need like P, H, D.

And extracts of them and fifty million dollars or hundred billion dollars, that's the second one. And I think it's like there is a few people seeing IT. Maybe there are sectors like defense, what it's like exciting, but like, I don't know.

I think when I see machines everywhere and every kind of version of IT, and I think i've seen people developed, like cooking robots, laundry machine things, folding drones to inspect of drones to map into your spaces, like matter port is a giant company and, uh, human goes and puts a tripod everywhere. And this is a true drones is going to fly through the whole house and like map IT for you. And that expands that.

And I just see one, two percent teams able to do this fast to them. I've ever seen IT. I feel more capable. Maybe I just really want to get into harvard again myself.

And I think that the point that it's a lot of people who want to mess with this and if something goes from not tinkering to tinker able, suddenly it's now the like. It's kind of like before you're competing one v one now is one versus the field. The field of course, any individual thing in the field might suck, but the field overall is super powerful. And now you're saying the field is open. Yeah you know harvard tinkler is which IT wasn't open before.

That's a big deal. Yeah, we do. These are residents here will bring people here for a month or six weeks.

We just tell them like here's a theme, here's a space to go do things. When the vision pro came out, we did that. We had about forty vision protest.

We probably the largest concentration of vision proves out of apple right anywhere. And the knowledge of that look, look IT didn't produce some ridiculous outcome. We actually did invest in one or two teams from that.

I think we just got a chance to see that technology deeply, which is A I hardware one. I'm a meeting this this kid, and I don't know where you was in the world, and he shows me this like robot. He like built like a humanoid.

He built like in his bedroom and is a half. He only built the boat, the legs. So I stopped like, where the least was and he was like, totally hand constructed and a leg. Yeah, this is a wild. But the fact that you could like food like this in your bedroom and like you could take steps as, like, crazy to me.

I met these other guys premiere and the same trend and rasberry pie, they took that trend that I mean, I know some of these I just I love IT because they jump on the video under they were up in seattle or something and it's like their kitchen and i'm like a three printer. You're sink and is just like their kitchen is like all machines. And I like you got to get on your house and I got to give you a home to, I do that.

That's what I want, is that people who will just turn their bedroom into this like way you can do IT. Here we will give you look a Better facilities, will give you space, you get to put place asleep. And they took this like razz y pie trend.

And they are like, all people travel razberries. And then they build a custom board, or we'll being a module razvi pie because that computer, more next meeting step you want to speaker, you can pick what our speaker you want to put that in, or you can produce two thousand units. Now we have the ability to scale for you.

So they took the hobbist world in the behavior this abating, driving in, and they started this in little in the kitchen. And like, I just think that and that's capable now and that's the trend that I I can like and see that sometimes. So in harder work, both in consumer and more deep tech hardware, a drones platforms, massive right to be a lot to do things so much opportunity you like that.

I don't know how long is going to take for this to become mass and mainstream, but I just keep seeing that trend now. And I think for us, the bet you make that's the Better we make. And so I always joked the guys here like we want to bet on negative one a zero, like Peter the'd talk about these zero to one companies. We still one step even before that. Like you're negative one, you're wondering the four is a place to tinker and like come and get the ideas to form this what .

we want you to write. I love IT. Um first, this is amazing. Uh, get you up as always, lets go check .

out some of these spaces could be what I want to. Less travel, never looking back.

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