How Sikh wisdom can transform your life (w/ Simran Jeet Singh)
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You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy.

Sometimes when I'm trying to be a better human, I feel like my job is to reevaluate my actions or to think about things that I'm already thinking about in a new way. What if I prioritized my work tasks differently or if I thought about my self-worth from a different angle? Maybe this one new life hack for loading the dishwasher is going to be what pushes me over the edge into transcendent bliss.

Other times, I think you might argue more self-aware times, I realize how vast the universe of ideas that I've never even considered at all is. There is so much wisdom and perspective that I've never exposed myself to.

And that is a big reason why I am so excited that we have today's guest on the show. Simran Jeet Singh is a professor of history at Union Theological Seminary, and he's the bestselling author of The Light We Give: How Sikh Wisdom Can Transform Your Life. Simran is also the host of the podcast Wisdom and Practice, and he writes and speaks a lot about the Sikh religion, which I have to be honest, I would

I was not very familiar with before I read his book. That's actually kind of surprising to me in retrospect, because it's one of the largest religions in the world with somewhere between 25 and 30 million believers, depending on how you count. And for perspective, that means that about twice as many people or almost twice as many people identify as Sikh as identify as Jewish.

I'm not going to try and sum up all of the Sikh beliefs for you, partly because who am I to do that? And partly because I think Simran does such a great job of it in this interview and in his book. But I will just say that it is a monotheistic religion that originated in Punjab in India and that believers are often most visibly identified by their turbans.

But that visibility also means that they frequently attract prejudice, harassment, and even violence. And there's a lot of ignorance about what it means to be sick, what it means to wear a turban, and what they believe. Here's a clip from Simran's podcast where he's talking about the ways that he personally has dealt with the confusion, the bias, and even the hatred that gets directed towards his community.

Growing up in the 80s and 90s in South Texas, I was an easy target with my turban and beard and brown skin. And yet the U.S. was the only home my brothers and I ever really knew. And so I held on to this hope that one day I'd no longer feel the weight of being both hyper-visible and invisible.

But in 2012, after a white supremacist walked into a gurdwara in Oak Creek, Wisconsin and opened fire on the worshiping Sikh congregation, I felt that hope begin to splinter. And in the wake of the massacre, it was so painful watching reporters stumble through their descriptions of who Sikhs were and what was happening. In this fog of misinformation, much of the media missed a powerful message from Sikh communities.

"Nir bo, nir ver" - no fear, no hate. Instead of calling for blood or retribution in the aftermath of this violence, Sikh communities in Wisconsin offered up deeply provocative questions that guide me to this day. Where is the room for love in times of suffering? What would it mean for us to see the light

the shared divinity, vaiguru, that connects us all? How might we learn not to be so quick to draw that line of no return? Those are some very big and very important questions, and we're going to do our best to think about them together with Simran in just a moment after this break.

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Today we're talking with Simranjeet Singh about his work as a professor of history, his research on religion, and the lessons that he shares from the Sikh faith. Hi, I'm Simranjeet Singh. I'm a writer and a professor, and I wrote a book called The Light We Get: How Sikh Wisdom Can Transform Your Life. I loved your book. I thought it was really well-written and interesting and so helpful and useful. So let me just start with this, which is why

How should everyone learn the wisdom of sick wisdom and what is it that it can do that people can put into their lives?

It's a funny question. I mean, it's a funny question I have to answer in part because I don't see myself as somebody who's a missionizer or proselytized. And I don't, you know, I'm a professor of religion and I practice religion. I don't really care if people follow my religion or another one or anyone, right? It's like, that's not the point. But I think what really kind of started to stand out to me when I was writing this book

And actually really like part of the impetus for this book was seeing how much people were struggling with how hard life can be and recognizing that because of this tradition that I grew up in, I had access to some answers that it seemed like other people didn't. You know, we live in a culture where we don't always know.

have ways of thinking about or even talking about some of life's toughest questions. And some of these questions are like everyday problems. Like, you know, how do we live with people who are different from us? Or how do we deal with people's assumptions about us? Or even like, how do we think about our own self-worth without falling into the trap of, you know, self-centeredness or egotism? And so like these kinds of things, which

I found really serving me, especially in my 30s, as we were looking at a global pandemic and looking at political polarization. And everyone was so angry and frustrated and hurt. And I was too. But it seemed like there were some teachings that really helped me through those moments. And I really felt a desire to help other people find some solace during some times of real darkness. That really resonates with me. I think

I don't really care about what you believe to other people. I'm not trying to convince people to believe something, especially if they don't want to. But I have thought about how for all the really good reasons why people have moved away from organized religion, for all the abuses and prejudice and all of that, I get why people have pushed away. But it does seem like

there hasn't really been something that has filled the void of making meaning of hard things and purpose in life and finding community and traditions and things to fall back on. And not that those can't happen outside of religion, but I just feel like at least in my world, the people who I interact with, if they don't have a religious tradition, I think it's often hard to find what is the secular version of those.

I think that's right. Even for those of us who think about religion and try to practice it, even there it can feel really meaningless sometimes, right? Like you can fall into a certain kind of

rhythm where you're just kind of doing the thing and fall in love with the idea of religion and religious practice without really thinking about how to apply the teachings in your life. That's in some ways, like I'm really turned off by that approach because we see how hurtful it can be. If we think about, you know, fundamentalist

readings of religion. That's some of the ugliest forms of humanity. So on the one hand, I get why people turn away from religion. I also don't push anyone towards religion itself. But what I found is there's versions of this in every kind of ideology. There are ways that you can learn

to engage with these teachings that can really enrich your life and can help you navigate the complexity. And I think that to me is like, what's so powerful, like in our country now, we so often are taught to look at things through a lens of black and white, right? And that's like, is it good or bad? Do we like it or do we not like it? Is it demographic? I mean, over and over again, it's these dichotomies.

And to me, what religion unlocks is how do you live in the gray, recognizing that life is gray and it's not always easy to know what the answers are. And sometimes, you know, you take these principles of, you know, compassion or service and you apply those and that helps you figure out, well, okay, this is how I want to deal with this situation where there is no easy answer.

I want to read something from your book, From the Light We Give. There's this moment where you are talking about how growing up, your family in South Texas, in San Antonio, was one of the only Sikh families in the area, and that your mom would come to your school to give presentations on Punjabi and Sikh culture.

And so I'm just going to read this here. She would lead us in singing while playing the harmonium and tabla, share samples of home-cooked Punjabi food, and even show how we wrap our hair in our turbans. As we got older, we began leading these sessions with her and eventually on our own. I felt a tinge of ambivalence with each presentation, and I feel the same even now as I deliver them for my own kids. When families like mine come in to offer cultural awareness programs, it's a reminder that children would not learn about people like us unless we made the effort to open ourselves up.

Presentations like these are a reflection of how much immigrants do to assuage xenophobia. My parents came to seek refuge in the U.S. and in a bid to ensure their children's safety, they go out of their way to share their culture as if to say, please don't fear or harm us. We're really very nice. Mm hmm.

That I thought was a really powerful passage. And the reason I read it is the idea that you feel ambivalence when you think about your parents having to do that, and yet that you still do that for your own kids. And then you

to ask you about when you do work, like writing a book that is about sick wisdom and sick culture. And when even on a show like this, in this very episode, right? I'm just curious to hear like what that ambivalence is for you and why you still think it's important, how you feel about it, because I think that's a complicated thing. I haven't thought about that passage in

in some time. And actually this morning, literally my wife and I were coordinating with our daughter's teachers to set up these presentations. So it's so interesting to hear that today as a parent now, I understand like all of these are just excuses to go hang out with your kids and their school and just snoop on the teachers and see if you like them and, you know, which kids sit with you and all that stuff. Right. I realize now that's really the undercurrent, but that feeling of imbibliance is still there. And I

the awareness that

if we didn't do it, no one would is also still there. And so what do you do in a culture where you recognize that no one knows who you are and no one will know? And that ignorance can lead to all kinds of violence. I mean, literal physical violence that I've experienced and people in my family have felt. And knowing that, you know, we would be safer if people knew who we were.

And on the other hand, recognizing that it's not really fair that our world is structured and our country is structured in such a way that certain people have to explain themselves in order to find safety. And, you know, I think for a lot of people, that unfairness of it outweighs the need for safety. And I'm hearing more and more people being like, I don't have to justify my existence. And why should I just deal with it and learn to see my humanity and get over your own

xenophobia or your bias or whatever it is. And I get that. It feels like it's born out of a frustration that's very familiar to me. I have found it, it's almost a way of asserting my own agency. I live in this country where so often I'm put in a position where I have to react to people's racism and to have the opportunity to say, actually, I'm going to be proactive about it. I'm not going to fall into the

the reactionary mode, which depends on your moods or whatever happens to me on the street. It's more like, you know, I'm going to have some control over it. And I realized that the control is very minimal and, you know, is talking to my daughter's third grade class about a Punjabi festival going to resolve bias and racism in this country. Like, of course not. But it is, it does make me feel like,

I'm making a difference within a community that I care about and also creating safety for my kids in a context where, you know, being different in this country can be really hard. And I grew up with that, too. And so those are the kinds of things that I'm grappling with. I think reading your book, one thing that I was struck by is I didn't think that I knew a lot about racism.

What it meant to be a Sikh. But I thought I knew a little. And then I realized because you write it in your book that I was quite literally even saying the word wrong. Right. Like I was like, oh, Sikh and Sikhism. And you talk about how both of those are kind of not actually the correct way and come from a colonial understanding of the language. So.

I think there's this basic part where it was a little bit humbling for me, but I wanted to be humbled in that way. And I'm all this is to lead to nor who is one of the producers on this show said in the prep for this episode, she said that, you know, I'm sick and I actually really never meet anyone who knows anything about the religion. And this is her words. I'm genuinely curious why no one has ever Googled it. Right. Because like they, we literally could just Google these answers. And yet, um,

Here you are having to like do interviews and write a book for people to find this information out. I've heard over and over from people in the Sikh community who were like,

what the hell, right? We're the world's fifth largest religion. There are millions of us all around the world. We've had prominent global positions and governments and sports and business and so on. And we're so visible, right? In our community, many of the people wear turbans and have beards. And so what is all of this about? And I have a hypothesis here. We are not a tradition that goes out and

tries to convert people or even to advertise ourselves and say, here is who we are. And part of that comes from this core belief, which I find really compelling and beautiful, which is, you know, you don't have to be of a certain tribe or a certain

worldview or believe in a certain thing in order to achieve the goal of life. And that's a very different approach to religion than we get from a lot of traditions, right? Like essentially the teaching in Sikhism is the goal in life is to achieve love, to live a life of love. And you can do that from wherever you are. And you don't have to follow our philosophy in order to live a life of love. And, you know, we celebrate people,

as enlightened beings who come from different traditions even within our own scripture and and i think what what that opens up for me is you know in this sort of western colonial understanding of religion which is like it's a competition like mine has to be better than yours for mine to be legit like it's kind of how we think about everything right politics sports like my wife is a big bills fan we're a monday night football the other night and like these

All these fans were getting in fights with each other, not because they hated the other team, but because they love their own team and the nature of their love required them to be better than others. You know, it's just like, do we need to find our own self-worth on the basis of denigrating other people? Like we see that in politics and it's so gross. And so part of what we see in the Sikh tradition that I find beautiful and other people,

traditions have versions of this too, is this openness to love as the thing that binds us together as people also then means that, you know, we don't have this political history of colonizing or converting and then nobody ends up knowing about us because we're not out there telling them our story. And just the last piece of it is

to me as part of this hypothesis is, you know, what we believe is like, you live a life of service and the world is bigger than you. So anyway, this is all sort of my working theory for why people don't know about who Sikhs are. And I think there's something really that I'm really attracted to by that worldview. And also the flip side of that coin is like, there's real danger that comes with not being known, especially in a country and in a world where, you know,

being unknown or being rendered invisible can be really dangerous. So I imagine many people who are listening to this, whether they are themselves sick or are from another community where maybe they are

visibly not part of the majority wherever they live, are managing something similar. So I'm curious what advice you have for people who are managing that and how you did it when you were younger and how you've managed that now as an adult, whether it's changed or you've learned anything about how to manage that work. Yeah.

honest answer from me is that there is no right answer. Then, you know, if somebody comes in being genuinely curious, like as you were describing, or if somebody comes in hateful and angry, like that alone determines a very different kind of response. But then there's also other questions as everyone listening will know, like it depends on context, right? Like, are you in a place where it's safe? Are you, do you have time? Like if I'm out with my family, I might react very differently than if I'm

on my own and if I'm out for a run and I don't want to stop my run like all these factors are there and I think you know what I've learned is appreciate the context and also give yourself grace last night my neighbor was talking about how her other neighbor was accusing her of not liking her because she's Turkish and my neighbor was so offended and she was pretty upset and we were talking about it and I was like you know she's like how do you deal with this stuff when people make assumptions about you and I was like you know the best thing that I've learned is like

to remember that oftentimes their assumptions have less to do with you and more to do with them. It's so easy to take these kinds of criticisms or assumptions personally because they do affect us, right? Like I'm talking about two neighbors who have to live next to each other. Like how does it not feel personal? But try and take your ego out of it and say like, okay, this isn't actually about me. It's about this other person. And if the conditions are right and I'm feeling up for it, then I'll be like, okay, let me

Let me help this other person. And it brings it back to service as opposed to obligation. And those two things are very different. And right now, like in our society, we're often thinking about, you know, microaggressions and, you know, having to explain who we are and the burden of responsibility and who that should be on. And I get all of that conversation. And I'm in agreement with a lot of it in terms of where we're landing, whatever.

What I would offer is if you can think in some cases about these moments as being opportunities to connect with people and to serve them, that's a very different kind of experience, one that does not feel heavy and obligatory, but one that actually feels liberating in some ways. And so that that mindset has really helped me in those kinds of moments. We'll be right back in just a moment.

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And we are back. Today, we're talking with Simranjeet Singh, author of The Light We Give, How Sick Wisdom Can Transform Your Life. You have a lot of very funny examples in the book of someone saying something ignorant to you or to someone in your family and then coming up with just a perfectly scripted one-liner and saying it back to them. What role can humor or laughter play in changing the tone and the tenor of your experience with these types of things? Humor, I mean...

As you're describing, it was a tool that we learned early to really negotiate tense situations. And a lot of it for my brothers and me was like,

here is how to deal with pain, like sometimes with really ugly situations, like if somebody says something hateful to you or denies you service, like it sucks. And especially when you're a kid and like to be able to joke about it changes the tenor of that experience. And so humor was a really valuable tool. And I would say over time, what I've realized is humor also changes

unlocks it unlocks people's armor right it disarms them and opens them up to like I mean especially from somebody who's visibly religious like when people see my turban and my beard they're like oh that guy's hardcore right like that guy must be serious and for me to make a joke or like a pop culture reference they're like oh he's like

it's unexpected. And then like, whatever the punchline is, they're like, Oh, this guy's a person. Well, one example of this that you give in the book that I laughed out loud at is when someone says to you, God,

go back to where you came from, kind of like the classic racist trope. And you lean really heavily into your Texas accent, which I don't want to force you to do unless you want to. But I thought that was so funny the way you respond when someone says, go back to where you came from. Yeah. Y'all want me to go back to Texas? It's like, yeah, that was like our that was like our accent. My brothers and me would throw around all the time. And what I think humor does sometimes in that example, too, is

The easy answer is like, hey, that's messed up. Why would you say that? But like, how is somebody going to respond when they say that? They're going to be like, they're going to double down and be like,

yeah but you shouldn't be here i mean how many times has that happened to me i mean dozens but it's a very different reaction when you can show someone how absurd their comment is and so like the texas accent hits hard and i'm like i'm from san antonio you want me to what do you want me to do san antonio and they're like oh i didn't realize that's what i was saying and of course like for some people

That's not what they really mean. And they're going to still go hard. But for some people, it's like a moment to like that punchline requires a moment of reflection. And that moment of reflection can reveal something about their own, you know, internal dissonance and racism. And so, yeah, humor, humor, I found is in a lot of cases, a much more effective way.

tool, not just as like a survival tactic for me and self-entertainment and all that stuff, but also like an effective way of communicating back to people. There's a moment in the book where you're at a water park with your family and someone comes up to your brother and sees his turban and says, like, are you a genie? And he says, yeah, and I'm going to make your racist ass disappear. And moments like that, one, just like, great, love that great line.

But I just want to say, I really feel like there's a cinematic nature to your work and the way you write. And I'm like, there is definitely like a TV show or a movie or some sort of adaptation of this to be made that would be really hilarious and relatable and great. I just really believe that as someone who works in TV and has written stuff. That's like a dream of mine. And like, it's so easy to say that to anyone, right? Like you could say something with that tone of language, right?

anyone but like part of why that story worked is because he was on a basketball court in a park where we were playing pickup. And so like, it was effective because my brother was speaking the language of the people in that context. It's like a mic drop moment. And all the guys are like, Oh, and they like surround my brother. And they're like, he got you and then like, it like totally broke the ice, right? And like, it's cinematic in that it's this like, triumphant moment where

people come together. And it doesn't always work out that way, right? One of the reasons why the idea of like the pop culture or entertainment representation of your work is in my head is because I was also thinking as I was reading this that I

There's a lot of talk in culture about like the importance of representation. And I think that many people, certainly me included, are like, yeah, yeah, I get that. That's important. But this is actually why representation is so important is because people have misrepresented identity and that is affecting your day to day life, right? Like the idea that a turban.

a visible thing that you wear every day that is associated with terrorism. It's not like random people just made that up like that comes from what they are consuming in media and that media is not at all accurate to like ideologies or even religions, right? Like the religious affiliation of what the turban means. So it feels like there's a lot of misguided, prejudiced media that has kind of seeped in and that is

That then leads to regular people having to do this work in their life because it hasn't been undone in the pop culture version that many people are seeing. Totally. That's so true. And I would say like the most intuitive version of dealing with that from...

a misrepresentation standpoint is to be like, Hey everyone, a sermon is not actually a signal of terrorism. Right. And that's typically what we do. And like, I could do that. And in some ways, like I ended up having to do that. You know, a lot of times I'm like, you know, Hey, can you come do this interview on CNN and talk about,

you know, this hate crime when somebody was attacked because somebody thought they were a terrorist. And can you explain why you're not a terrorist? And like, I do that for the reasons we were describing before, like there's safety in it. There's value to that for my community. And also it's so frustrating to be stuck in that cycle where like the only thing that I can talk about, the only time people ever want to talk to me or interested in me is like through this victim thing.

narrative right and so what is it what does it do like even if i'm saying hey i'm not a terrorist like it's still so dehumanizing to be in a world where the only times people care about me is when that happens and so part of what i'm really interested in doing and i appreciate your note on like the importance of representation the depth of representation is like how do we get out of that constant cycle and say like oh this is a real person who by the way like

You wouldn't expect it by looking at him, but he likes sports or he has a family. I mean, one of the funniest things that I observed when I had my two daughters were born was like, I would be pushing the stroller down the streets of New York City where like nobody makes eye contact with you, right? Like it's New York, but like it's home. It's where we've lived for a long time now.

and like people would like smile at me and wave at me and like I was like what is going on and I was like oh they see me as like a human being because I have a baby like I'm a father and so like what does it take to actually undo as you're saying like how do you undo some of that like I don't think it's just by denying the misrepresentation it's actually like bringing out

the full human lives of people, especially those that we have certain stereotypes about. Let's talk about a couple of the specific Sikh beliefs and philosophies that you highlight in your work. One of them is you talk about Charthikala. Yeah, Charthikala. Yeah. It's good Punjabi. Charthikala. Yeah.

Can you tell us a bit about that and how that plays out in your life and in your experience of the world? The term Chardidikula refers to eternal optimism. And it comes at the end of a prayer that we offer, usually collectively. And, you know, with my kids, we do this every morning before they go to school. The request is, please ensure eternal optimism, high spirits, and the upliftment of all humanity. Sarmadapala.

And those two things go in hand. And I found this to be such a powerful thing.

A simple story that I can sort of share with you is after 9-11, when there was racist backlash in this country and my family was locked up at home, we didn't leave the house for a few days. And it felt really dark and we felt really pessimistic. I mean, in the way that we did again with the pandemic and all sorts of fires that are going on in our world right now, it's so easy to feel hopeless. And my dad, as I was walking down one day, he was like,

aren't we so lucky? And I'm like, what are you talking about? The world feels pretty crappy right now. He's like, but your, your neighbors have been coming by and delivering groceries and bringing meals for us. And your teammates and your teachers have been checking in to see if you're okay. Like we're so lucky. What I learned then, and,

it's sort of tied to Jardikullah is that there always is goodness around us. Like there's always positivity around us, even when things feel hopeless and we just have to open up our eyes to it.

And if we can do that, the goodness of the people around us and the light and the world around us can really inspire us in ways that feel almost impossible, like in moments right now. So it's this sort of daily reminder of eternal optimism. Like it's not a sugar coating or a silver lining. It's like, hey, develop this practice of seeing the good around you. That's what it's meant for me. You also talk in the book about a practice that you do of just walking the streets of New York and just looking for each small act of kindness that people do, which I

That really struck me because this is something I really struggle with. Yeah, no, totally. And I mean, I'll be honest and say, like, I find myself

Turning off the news too and like turning off my phone and being like I don't want to open my social media today because what Shitstorm is gonna be on like I don't know but like it's also true that like we're living in an environment where we're bombarded with negativity Right with news and social media and so on and so What does it look like for us to have a practice that does the opposite and part of my thinking around this practice that you're describing is

that the bombardment comes from a macro level, right? And it's almost abstract. It's like, it's not really in our daily life, but we know about it and it's happening in the world around us. And actually like, this is new for the human brain to be absorbing all of this overwhelming information. And so I started to just look locally and within community and seeing like, hey, what outcome

would there be if I just watched people like are people good or bad I don't know and so if you just watch them I've had this consistent experience whenever I've done this that like people are really good to each other and I mean even in New York where the assumption is like people

people suck and they don't take care of each other. Like they really do. And like that really surprised me when I started to notice in a really good way where I started to feel more trust and hope in the people around me, which it sounds almost cliche, but like trust is, it's this feeling you have, um,

in one another where you can have hope, right? Because you know that people will be there for you in hard times and that people mean well. And even if you disagree with them, they're still kind-hearted, right? Like all these things that we don't necessarily feel right now, we can sort of inculcate again with this practice. It also makes me think about another big part of the Sikh religion, which is service or seva. Seva is one of the... I

I find one of the most attractive parts of Sikh philosophy, the tradition is, and the learning of the tradition is that you start doing seva as a child, right? So like, even when you're at the place of worship at Gurdwara, like you are,

passing out napkins. The way we describe it is this term, which means you give and then you partake. And that's supposed to be something that's every aspect of your life. And it's not that you have to abstain from partaking or deny yourself the enjoyment in life, but like you also have to think about other people before you think about yourself. And so seva is

It's a practice that you can engage to remind yourself that the world is bigger than you and your ego is misguiding you. And so by serving others, you are reinforcing this idea and diminishing your ego through practice. And that is ultimately what leads to a more loving way of life.

Do the intentions matter, right? Is it okay if we are helping people not because we're truly selfless, but because we're supposed to or because it makes us feel like a good person to do? What do you think about that? Yeah, it is like a classic paradox. And I think part of the basis of that paradox relies on a Western understanding of service, which is one is to reduce people's suffering.

because people need it. And the other one is because I have privilege. And if I have privilege, then I have a responsibility. And I think both of those are true. At least they ring true for me. But it takes the outlook there is very much based on an understanding of service as being only for the other person, right? Like that is I'm serving you because it's going to transform you and it's going to transform society.

If we're to understand service as a spiritual practice and recognizing that it can have a transformative experience or transformative impact on you as a person, right? It can change you from the inside, which I think we already know.

know in our hearts, by the way, because we've all experienced it in some way, right? When we serve people, we know what it does to us in our hearts, like that feeling of, you know, giving someone to something who needs it, right? It might be a meal or it might be a jacket, right? Like it changes us. And so if we can

see service as something that is also meant to help us as we're helping others, something that transforms us as we're transforming society, then I think absolutely the intention really matters because it's not really going to bring you satisfaction or joy internally if you're not experiencing that transformation.

The idea of like service changing us as well. And also being that we all need purpose in our lives. That's like a fundamental need for us is to have an effect on the world and others positively. Yeah. If you look at some of the research on the loneliness epidemic, mental health crisis, a lot of this is tied to a lack of purpose and a feeling that people have a

What's the point of trying if I can't fix all the world's problems? And it feels so...

And so part of what I'm starting to understand is if our ultimate happiness relies on a perfect world, then we might as well give up, right? Like the world is never going to be perfect. But if we understand with some humility, right? Like we can do what we can from where we are and that in doing so we can reduce people's suffering, right?

And we can also reduce our own suffering through service. Like that is a beautiful outcome and it's not perfection, but like what is this expectation that perfection is even achievable? I don't know where that comes from. So I really find liberation in letting go of this idea of perfection as a goal or even a pursuit and instead saying, I'm going to use this tool as a way to bring myself happiness through internal transformation. Yeah.

Simran, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for being on the show and thank you for the work that you do. Same. Thanks, Chris. This was awesome. That is it for this episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Simran Jeet Singh. His book is called The Light We Give and his podcast is The Wisdom and Practice Podcast. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and information about my live shows at chrisduffycomedy.com.

How to be a better human is put together by a team who would never make an offensive comment at a water park. On the TED side, we've got Daniela Balarezo, Ben Ben Chang, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Lainey Lott, Antonia Leigh, and Joseph DeBrine. This episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Matthias Salas.

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