Book Club: Let’s Talk About Adam Ross’s ‘Playworld’
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I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review, and this is the Book Review Podcast. This week, we have our monthly book club episode. And as always, MJ Franklin is hosting a discussion, this time about the novel Playworld by Adam Ross, which came out earlier this year. I'm going to hand this off to him.

Hello and welcome to another Book Club episode of the Book Review Podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm an editor here at the New York Times Book Review and for this month's Book Review Book Club, we're talking about Playworld by Adam Ross. We chose this book as our book club pick because I was feeling selfish and I was feeling FOMO and I wanted to read this book.

I feel like I had seen this everywhere. It came out at the beginning of the year. It was very buzzy. It has this bright yellow cover. So I would see people holding it on the subway. I would see it in bookstores. And then I was doing this bookstore adventure with a friend and she pointed to it and was like, I just finished reading that. And I was like, what is going on? Now it's my turn. I have to read it. And I want to talk with someone about it. Let's make it a book clip. And that is what we are here to do today.

And speaking of talking about it with other people, I have in the studio two of my incredible colleagues. They are both fellow book review editors. They are returning book clubbers. We have Dave Kim and Sadie Stein. You may remember them both from our Intermezzo episode, which is when they were both here most recently. Dave, Sadie, thank you. Thank you for joining us. Welcome back. Thanks. Happy to be here. Glad to be back. We got the band back together. That's right.

Before we jump into the conversation, I want to, as always, share some admin notes up top. First, at the end of the episode, we will reveal our May Book Club book. So stay with us to the end if you want to find out what we're reading next. And second, there will be spoilers in this conversation.

This is a book that reveals quite a lot, even in the first few pages. But if you haven't read the book yet and you want to go in fresh, pause the episode, read the book, then come back to us. Or if you've already read the book and you don't care about spoilers, I say let's do it. Let's jump in. To get started, could someone give us a brief elevator pitch synopsis of what is Playworld about?

I can take a whirl, MJ. Playworld is a coming-of-age novel about a 14-year-old boy named Griffin. He's growing up in New York City in 1980. He's a child actor on a hit TV show. And he begins a romantic relationship with a married woman who's more than two decades his senior. She's a friend of his parents's.

And Rusk takes us through this relationship and its many ripple effects. But it also gives us a very detailed look into

his life as a teenager. He's haunted by a childhood episode, a fire that he started and had many negative effects on his family. We learn about his parents' rocky marriage. And the novel kind of covers his freshman year at a prep school where he wrestles. His coach is this mixture of

tyrant, and later we find out an abuser, but also is his greatest motivator in a sense. And so he represents this kind of contradiction of roles for the narrator. Griffin is torn between wrestling and acting as his main pursuits. And of course, he also falls in love with someone his own age, which complicates his relationship with

the older woman. It's a big book with lots of granular detail, but also we get the grand sweep of history throughout. I'd also say it's just a great New York coming-of-age novel. It's a time before I was growing up, but I felt like I was there. And the neighborhoods he portrays and the places that I do know are so exactly right.

I completely agree with both of you. It's both so immersive in the world of New York in the 80s. I did not grow up in New York in the 80s. I moved to New York in 2013, but I felt like I was there. I'm sure we're going to dig into that. And then Dave, you're so right. Like it's,

For me, the hook of this book is, and this is what's in the jacket copy, the relationship with Naomi, but it really is just a year in the life of this kid. And you're just following him. And the novel holds so much through that framework. Before we fully dive in, I just have to open with reading the first few sentences, because I think this is one of the great openings. This is one of the best openings I've read in a long time. And it is just...

Amazing.

immediately hooked you're like what is going on you're visiting the story from the future it's so rich it's a perfect opening sentence i think even the fact that he says she fell in love with him the balance of power is already kind of interesting i mean it's not of course it's not he's being groomed and it's very upsetting we'll get into that but in his perception yep

It's a little bit complicated. And in that way, it keys you in exactly of like how you should be approaching the story, the tone of the story, and then to continue that and how it's this book is grappling with abuse. What his mom says when he finally tells his mom just a few sentences later, he says, two decades later, when I finally told my mother we were on Long Island taking a walk on the beach, she stopped stunned and said she was such an

ugly woman. It's not what you expect. I think that's this book. It's this coming of age story. It's this like really harrowing saga of this very strange, abusive relationship. But the approach is sideways. It's off kilter. It's not what you expect.

And it's not even the strangest thing that happens to him. A lot of strange stuff happens. Many, many strange things that happen. Well, I want to ask broadly, big picture, what did you think about the book? Like it? Love it? Feel complicated about it? Hate it? I just want to know top level your thoughts. I'm going to go around. I'm going to start with you, Sadie. Ultimately complicated. I started out actually reading it aloud to my husband and

I was loving that experience. And I found the early chapters so immersive and so agonizing in a way. Tell me more. Well, in the early chapters, it's seeding the grooming by...

several characters in his life, but more than that, the neglect he suffers at the hands of every grown-up in his life in different ways. Every single adult feels it. But even that is handled with a degree of nuance. It's just how it is. But the boundaries are a problem, starting with the fact that the entire family visits the same shrink, not together, but sequentially, weekly, and they also socialize with him.

So enmeshed is the word that comes to mind. Exactly. So they're strangely enmeshed. And yet there's this distance in which no grown up in his life actually knows what's going on. Including his therapist who like falls asleep while he's talking. Yeah. And I want to talk more later about the relationship with the therapist, which is one of the things I found ultimately a little unsatisfying. I guess what I would say is I loved so much of the texture of the early chapters in particular. Yeah.

Ultimately, I came to feel that some of that texture came at the expense of character development. And I thought there was a lot going on, a little more than needed to be going on. What's the texture? Talk to me about what you were picking up and what got dropped. The New York as he paints it was beautiful.

both so familiar and yet so vivid and emotional landscape. I thought it was just masterful. I mean, we know he said, the Adam Ross has said that it's a frankly autobiographical book and he clearly has fun with kind of the obfuscation of reality and fiction.

And that, for instance, Adam Ross, for instance, went to a school called Trinity, but Griffin Hurt goes to a fictional school called Boyd Prep, which is clearly Trinity. But at the same time, we have them competing and wrestling against all these real schools. And we have him in this kind of

what seems to be a Woody Allen film with real actors, Diane Lane and Shelley Duvall and Jill Kleberg. And so I love the way he interwove that. Dave, how did you feel about that?

I thought that was one of the major themes of the book. I mean, obviously the title, Play World, it implies a kind of tension between the fictional world and the worlds we construct. And I think in this book, there are so many worlds that are constructed. I mean, his father is a performer. We're deeply immersed in show business, in plays, in we get a lot of

films within the book, but plays within plays and these stories within stories. And I think ultimately I really enjoyed that aspect of it. Although I did find some of the rhymes between, let's say,

a school production that he's in or a film that he's shooting or a musical that his father's in. Some of the details that rhymed with events in his own life, in the, I guess, quote unquote, real world, they felt a little too similar, almost like they

It was a little, it felt a little contrived almost. I didn't mind it so much though, because he clearly, again, he's just a great writer and the level of detail is so precise that you just want to go for the ride.

Given that, I want to ask you directly, not just how you felt about like the obfuscation of fiction and reality, but just in general, your top level thoughts about the book overall. How did you feel? I think overall, very positive. I really enjoyed the book very much. I wasn't crazy about it in the beginning, but I think he sort of won me over. I don't think this is one of those books where you're supposed to sort of

love the character from start to finish. I mean, he's a deeply flawed character and it's a very frustrating one at times. And all the characters can drive you a little crazy. And drive each other crazy. Exactly. And I think that it takes a little bit of courage to do that. I mean, it's a big risk as a writer to do that. And yet I still found myself caring. I did think, again, like that, that those rhymes, the fictional worlds mirroring the real world

came up a little too often, it had a flattening effect so that even the parts, the dialogue and the events in the real world could seem a little hard to believe. Again, overall, I really liked it. I think it's so interesting that you should have found the theatrical rhyming a little bit flattening. I really liked that. And full disclosure, I have some theater people in my own family who

I did grow up on the street where his family lives. One of the reasons why I chose both of you for this book club is because, Sadie, when I think of you, I think of New York. And Dave, you've mentioned that you love like Franzen and Crossroads. And there's something so Franzenian about this book.

me maybe i'm wrong is that correct i would agree with that but really the connection for me i think was deeply personal as well so i can talk about that a little bit yeah can we go into it i'm gonna start with you sadie because you were mentioning the theater and i yeah there were all of these resonances that i just didn't even know but were serendipitous well that's it made me think in fact i wonder if everyone will respond to this the way i am or is it just that they live on my block and i know the intersection he's describing or that

I have people in my family who are involved with musical theater or that for a while as a child, I was forced to do a certain amount of performing on weekends and dropped off around the Lincoln Center area. And is that why I felt so stressed out reading those passages? I don't know. But then I thought the confidence with which he approaches the stuff I know allowed me to accept the wrestling details and

And even the Dungeons and Dragons, which is not something I'm fond of. Here on a hot mic, Sadie, not fond of D&D. I thought that was so diplomatic. And I have a personal, I have my own personal reasons for that too, which I won't get into. But yeah, I, so I would love to hear how you responded if you weren't grounded in this

very specific reality, geographic reality. Well, I was not grounded in that geographical reality, but I definitely felt very tied to some of the events in the book. I too was a wrestler in high school and I too was very bad at it. And I wish listeners could see my face when I first found out about this an hour ago, like my jaw dropped at no clue. Yeah, I was terrible, but I did it for three years.

And partly because of that experience, I was cast as Charles the wrestler in my high school production. Wait, what? Are you serious? Of As You Like It. Which parenthetical happens to the character in the book. Yeah.

Oh my God. Yeah, no, it was uncanny. I was Charles the Wrestler in As You Like It. And I, it was a modern-ish production. The setting was Jazz Age era and we were asked to develop our own costumes. I was also, I also developed the choreography of the fight scene as Griffin does in the book.

For some inexplicable reason, I wore a white blazer with a velvet, a black velvet turtleneck. The reason is high school, right? Yeah. And I gave myself a very thin goatee and I've just won the most embarrassing story contest today. But that was me. This makes me very happy. The hour is young.

MJ, so tell us what your uncanny parallel to this story is. I feel like a boring normie compared to both of you. I don't think I had... I live in New York now. I moved there as an adult. I...

have been to Lincoln Center. Like, that's all, I don't know, that's what I got. Well, what about your affair with the woman two decades your senior? You say to a gay man. A lot could have happened in your childhood. It's true, it's true. I grew up in Baltimore, not New York. So I feel like I was very outside of this book, but I...

I really loved it. And what hooked me immediately was the tone. I found this book simultaneously very funny and also harrowing in a way that really intrigued me. I thought Griffin as a character was so dynamic and full of nuances and complications. He is both young and vulnerable, but as this young New Yorker, he has this level of independence and he's this professional actor. So he has this

presence about him, which I really liked. I love the portrait of New York. And so it was just interesting to spend time with Griffin. And it was interesting to spend time in this world as Adam Ross portrays it. And his writing, I think, is so evocative, though a weird... I don't know how you thought about this. You were reading it out loud. I don't know how you read this, but... Not all 500 pages, to be clear. Yeah, it's a long book. I was like, how did you get through this in time for this book club? Because...

the book hooks you with this idea of the relationship with Naomi. About, what, 200 pages? I guess midway through the book, she falls off stage. And then you're just with Griffin as he's living life. And I loved all of it. But when I put the book down, there was no hook for me to come back to it. So whenever I wasn't reading it, I'm like, oh yeah, that's a good book. And it just never felt compelled to pick it up. But once I did pick it up, I marathoned read like

200 pages at a time. My thoughts, though, I came around to it and...

I really like that kind of discursive, meandering approach because I feel like that is how life is. Life doesn't necessarily have a through line. Life doesn't necessarily build. It accumulates. And so being in this person's head as he just has these experiences. And I feel like if we asked us in the studio or anyone listening or any person on the street, like, what is it that made you? You wouldn't get any like a beat by beat

you would get this thing happened to me and I felt this way and I learned this and this random thing happened and this random thing happened and I think that's what is presented here and all the things are really interesting. So I really loved it. I was into it and then I dipped off a little bit but then in the end fell in love with it. Do you know, I didn't

love completely the discourses into the parents' past, both because it seemed to me improbable that all this would first be coming up conveniently in this one span of a year. Can you tell us about that? What are the discourses? At different points, he has talks with each of his parents, which prove very illuminating about his dad's experience first in the Navy and

and development of the character we now know, and the mother's life prior to meeting the father. And she, we know, was a professional ballerina, but learned more about her personal life. And I just felt they took me out of it a little bit, and I didn't buy that in this family. This was the first time they would have had these conversations. I remember feeling initially really annoyed by

that I was getting this and flipping ahead and seeing that it was like a full 20 pages long and being a little irritated. But as with so much of this book, I think the writing kind of won me over. And, you know, I think I read one of the most beautiful sentences about sailors throwing up their guts over the prow of a ship. I mean, seriously, I mean, it's wow. What a writer he is.

Okay, so those are our broad thoughts about Griffin and about his parents, about everything that's happening. I also wanted to share some thoughts from some fellow book clubbers online because we have an article up on the New York Times right now headlined, Book Club, Read Playworld by Adam Ross with the book review. And readers from all over the world have been sharing their thoughts on the book. I just wanted to read a few comments.

The first, Jeff from Nashville writes, This novel is an extraordinary achievement and I came away with so many emotions. It stirred me. The pitch-perfect way Ross captures betrayal, narcissism, the precarious way Griffin's family careens through one emotional calamity after another, the astonishing way Ross conveys adolescent heartbreak and longing moved me profoundly. Nancy from Newton, Massachusetts writes, I read this book for another book group and despite the somewhat bleak themes, I loved it.

As a Gen X member, I found the cultural references so familiar, including how kids occupied themselves in the pre-internet era with little parental supervision. The writing was just beautiful. The humor throughout offset the bleak material. This book is so rich and beautiful, it left me wanting to read it again to uncover more. That's just part of the comment. The whole comment is really thoughtful, so go check that out. And one more I just wanted to share. Macy Jane from Boise writes...

I found this to be a very powerful work and one that covertly got increasingly haunting as it went. I was struck by Ross's comment on how in '81 when the book is set, the language to describe experiences like Naomi's predation was simply not available to kids Griffin's age. This allows Naomi to set the language resulting in haunting passages.

So those are just a few reader comments. Again, we have an article up on the New York Times website, Headline Book Club, Read Playwrote by Adam Ross with a book review. Go find more comments there. Go talk with other readers there. We are going to dive back into our conversation. First, let's take a quick break. ♪

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And we're back. This is the Book Review Podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm chatting with Dave Kim and Sadie Stein, and we're talking about Playworld by Adam Ross. So we've talked about general thoughts. Now I just want to ask some pointed questions to start. The first one I want to start off with is a heavy one and a sensitive one, but I think it's important to talk about. And that is how Adam Ross writes about abuse in this book.

In an interview, Adam Ross said that what he was trying to do is, quote, mine a certain moment in the culture when we just didn't have language for certain kinds of experiences. There was no language for certain kinds of experiences about predation. There was no language for certain kinds of experiences that now get tagged as narcissism or abuse. So I'm just curious, what were your thoughts on how Adam Ross approached this storyline? It's very heavy. And I guess I can start, I alluded to it before, that this book is simultaneously harrowing,

and funny. You can see that he's toeing the line to make sure that the story feels raw and authentic, but doesn't feel too... The story, the book itself, doesn't feel over-encumbered or...

a purely dark book. And at the same time, all of the adults, and not just the abuse from Naomi, but all of the adults in the book fail Griffin tremendously, but they also teach him something. Naomi is abusing him, but she is the only person that listens to him while Elliot, his therapist, does not. So I'm just curious, what are your thoughts on this approach to this type of story? I thought his first novel, Adam Ross's Mr. Peanut, is much more sexually explicit than this one. There's not

Very much that's explicit in Playworld. He writes this with a certain delicacy. I found, I found the, particularly the grooming of him by Naomi almost, it made me feel almost physically ill to read it. Same, same. Which I thought was a testament to his skill in a lot of ways.

Because you see how disturbed she is, how needy she is, and you also see that he doesn't really want it. He just needs intimacy and he needs an adult to care. And it's being twisted in this horrible way. Maybe I had a particularly little sympathy for her character because she's one closer to my age and I was just like, what is wrong with you? And maybe that's a failure of the characterization that I felt that way.

But absolutely, it's not an uncomplicated relationship. None of them is didactic. I completely agree with you in that it's so complicated because Griffin, to a certain extent, looks forward to seeing Naomi. He looks out for her car because...

He is dealing with so much in life and he just needs a listening ear. And that's what she's able to provide. And she's excited to see him. Excited to see him. But it comes at this tremendous cost. And so it felt, I felt my gut drop whenever she was on the scene because you could see how he is yearning for her in a different way than she is yearning for him. And she is exacting this horrible toll. And...

I just felt so bad for poor Griffin. Yeah, I think our culture is so thoroughly saturated by therapeutic and psychoanalytic treatment that we're almost primed to

really recognize these moments for what they are in terms of, in that language, right? We recognize that it's grooming. We recognize that immediately that what the wrestling coach is doing is abuse, even though Griffin looks up to him so much. And we all recognize the incident in the closet where a young Griffin sets things on fire and is forever plagued

And so those moments of immediately stand out to us as these sort of pivotal, formative experiences. And I couldn't help. I mean, we are so primed to then see.

expect those things to lead to one thing, which is trauma. We were so primed to think of that in those terms, in traumatic terms. And I think what Ross does that is surprising and welcome, I think, is that he doesn't really let the shoe drop in this kind of predictable way. This is not a classic kind of trauma plot. And we're not, we don't land on how this

really tore him apart emotionally. And I think it's much more complex than that. And I think that's part of the reason why this book may feel frustrating to some readers because it just seems to go on, right? It doesn't have, and it's funny because he actually even talks about Freytag's Pyramid, right? Where you expect there to be this sort of climactic event that is the culmination of all these traumatic experiences. And yet,

That's not really how life works. And I think it's to its credit, I think, that the novel kind of withholds that from us. I think that's beautifully put. And I think, too, the contrast with the literal therapeutic experience is

is interesting and funny, too. I know, because he's so bad. Because the shrink is terrible. But hilariously so. Not merely, I mean, we see the evidence of his work in the lives of this family, but we also know that he falls asleep until they go for a walk and go for an egg cream. And it's

presumably not inexpensive. I think we're all thinking of that living in New York City, the incredible expense of this therapy that maybe his acting career is helping subsidize. That's the laugh out loud funny part of this is you have Naomi and then Elliot. Like what is happening here? Who is also, by the way, one of his patients, it should be said. Yes. And once again, enmeshed.

But I would also say that for the character of Griffin, what, as you say, we now identify as trauma, et cetera, is not...

more upsetting than the heartbreak he's going through in real time with Amanda, the girl his own age, who he has a big crush on, who he has one of these kind of strange, I think we can all recognize teenage relationships where they just hang out all the time. But she has another boyfriend. Talk about not having the language that we have now. I think the word is situationship. That's right. Yeah.

But she too, I mean, they're kids. She doesn't know what she wants. As the father says at one point, I mean, you don't marry the love of your life. I loved when Amanda enters the scene because for the most part, Griffin is only hanging out with his brother, I guess, wrestlers to some extent. And he's got his two friends. But he is in an adult world for the most part. And then all of a sudden with Amanda, you see him trying to navigate like...

kids his own age and girls his own age and how he knows how he slots into the adult world. He has no clue how to function into a teenage world, which I found so interesting. But that's me. And I feel like I've been asking a lot of very pointed questions. So I want to open up to the floor and do Free Swim, which is what I like to call this segment. What are you interested in? What do you want to talk about? Anything clanking around your head about this book? Oh, my gosh, so much. I can't get the book out of my head.

Some of it was just, I think he really nails a lot of particularities, economic peculiarities of growing up here in New York. They get into the fact that Amanda's family isn't as rich, but then they're kind of waspy in a way the other kids he knows aren't. And some kids are clearly very well off. And he just...

When he gets to this yacht, this beach club, he just doesn't look quite right. When he goes shopping for his uniform, it's not exactly right. And that feeling felt so real. Even being the person who, because your mother isn't Jewish...

isn't getting either double Christmas or Hanukkah gifts was very much resonated for some of us. I cannot stop. You know this about me. I tend to fixate on strange details. And partly because he got it so right when there were a couple of moments that rang as false notes. Real-time fact check. They really distracted me. And I...

Hope, this is my error, but two things in particular. So there's one point where kind of the crappy boyfriend who's stringing Amanda along, this uber confident guy who always wears a suit for some reason, and

And it's always going to a Studio 54, which they all seem to do. Underage. A lot. As freshmen in high school. They're really young. So when he says to Amanda, Lagulu or Cafe Sabarsky, this is to indicate that he's rich. He has money to throw around. He's taking her to grown up places. But I thought, wait, was there a prior restaurant called Cafe Sabarsky because of

The one we all know now on 86th Street in the Neue Gallery opened in 2001. I feel like Griffin with the wrong swimsuit on because I have no clue. Well, so maybe it doesn't matter. And maybe and I was trying to give Ross all kinds of credit and thinking maybe this is the unreliability of memory. It's play world, whatever. Or then there's a point where where he says Paris is always a good idea and then vomits in the middle of Central Park. And.

I thought, oh, no, because everyone thinks that's from the original Billy Wilder Sabrina. But in fact, it's from the 1995 remake and it's often misattributed. Interesting. There's some ambiguity about sexual origins. So anyway, it takes me out of it and I'm doing these weird, stupid mental gymnastics. Well, I think that's a testament. Yeah. You said this before, just...

of just how immersive and how true to life this world is that he's painting, that is inviting you to look at New York in this book through that lens. And when there are details that are off, depending where you are, it stands out. Everything else, like Lincoln Towers, where they live, my son's godfather lives there in his grandma's old apartment. It's exactly as he describes it. And...

So much of it is just right. And I would really like to be wrong about this Cafe Sabarsky thing. So please let me know if there was a prior thing. ChatGPT, you can't find anything. It's made it really hard. So please.

So we have a plea from Sadie. Listeners, please, you're on it. Fact checker, please. What about you, Dave? Anything stand out to you from this book? You mentioned earlier, before we started, about the genre of coming-of-age novel of Bildungsroman and where this sort of slots in. And I was thinking about that after you mentioned that. And I think in some ways it really stays true to that tradition in that this is—

there's a lot of stuff that happens. It's like, again, it's not just one event and one thing. It's really not. I think a lot of book summaries might summarize this as the relationship between an older woman and a younger boy, but it's really so much more than that. And I think in

And the big overarching theme, if there is one, is like this tension between the self we want to be and the self we perform versus the self we really are and the one we try to get away from. And that, I think, informs the entire, the course of the novel. And so in that sense, I really feel like he got it. I mean, he really understood the assignment and then, yeah, made it happen.

I'd like to hit the play acting motif a little hard, especially by the end. I think it's one of the things that turned me off slightly at the end. But along similar lines, the one character who never acts that we know of, and he mentions this, is Oren, the younger brother. I'm glad you mentioned him because he's in my notes. He's what a shining character. Who is actually probably...

Maybe everyone's favorite character. He's certainly the most authentic, I guess, or the mature to himself. Yeah, because he kind of slips between the cracks in this family. He's not a moneymaker. He doesn't go to the same fancy school. But he also has such talent, too. Like that scene where he's the only kid that knows how to ride a horse and everyone's like, why do you know this? Where did you ever ride a horse? And he's just like, I got this. This is how you go. He's so charismatic and enigmatic and just interesting. Yeah.

He's the one that's going to be like in venture capital and become a billionaire. Yeah, he projects total competence. He's emotionally self-sufficient, but he doesn't seem damaged in the way the rest of them do. And it's been a case of benign neglect. On the other hand, we haven't seen a year in his life. It's true. How about you, MJ? What was a standout thing for you? We talked a lot about the things that I loved. Oren, I'm glad we mentioned him. But one scene that...

that just like when I think about it, I'm like the grinch and my heart grows 10 times too large. And that's the scene where Griffin spends the day with his mom, just going around New York. They go out shopping, they go to lunch. And his mom is an interesting character as well. Similar to Oren, she's very off-topic.

off-screen, off-stage, but you know that she is a former dancer, current Pilates instructor, who is also studying for a master's in literature. She is so annoyed by Griffin's dad, who is also this very funny, like, clumsy, troublemaker

try hard. But for the most part, you see Griffin's mom as someone who's feeling a function or not feeling a function, but she's in that maternal role. And then all of a sudden they have this day together and it's like a field trip. And it stood out to me for two reasons. One is that she just, Griffin's mom just blooms. Like you learn so much about her and Griffin's asking her all of these questions and Sadie, you said, was it believable that he was

He wouldn't have asked until then. I don't know, but I loved, I'm glad that scene happened because I loved learning everything that she has to say. But then the other thing that I loved about that scene is that is one of the only times in the book where an adult actually cares and nurtures

Griffin. She is asking him, do you know about this? Be careful with this. Like, how are you feeling? Sure, ask these questions. And that, it felt like a little oasis of actual adult care in this book where Griffin is very alone. And I just, it was like a little bottle episode and I loved it.

You do almost feel like he's become the father's property because he's followed him into show business. And maybe that's compromised the relationship with the mother somewhat. Although we do see her intercede. The one time anyone intercedes is when the coach, the wrestling coach, is making them drop weight by, what's the term for it? Rubber suiting. Well,

Yeah, when they put on the rubber suit and then just have to starve themselves. Yeah, cutting weight. Cutting weight. It was miserable. I was going to ask, but I was afraid it would be prying. Did you have to ever? Rubber suits were made illegal by the time I was in high school, so it was absolutely banned. But you had ways to get around it. I used saran wrap and would put on layers of sweaters and run, try to lose. The most I ever lost was 12 pounds in a week. Oh my God. Wow. It's terrible. It's terrible.

Wow. Yeah. And did your mom ever object? I don't think she knew. I, too, had a long leash. She wasn't too clued in into what I was doing. Don't listen to those moms. Yeah.

I feel like we could talk about this all day, but we're running really long and we have a fun third segment. So we should wrap it up. But before I go, I just want to ask, are there any last things that you want to mention about this book? This is lightning round. Like, oh, I wanted to mention blah, blah, blah, blah. Anything come to mind? One thing that's striking is that at the end of the book, spoiler alert, Griffin chooses what he wants to do. And he chooses wrestling because it's the one thing we know he really loves wrestling.

And you're really applauding him for it in a way. And you're glad his parents are finally giving him the freedom. At the same time, that's not going to be his career. And it's made very clear that he could have had a successful career as at least a teen actor and probably could have put himself through college. And a little part of me, at least, was thinking, I'm glad the parents are going to make this choice, but...

Has he really thought it through? Well, he chooses writing as well. I mean, he decides, I'm going to become a writer, which is a very stable and financially secure life.

line of work. I feel like you just heard three writers trauma laugh. It's the rubber suit of jobs. Well, on that note, let's talk about other writing. Our last segment is a recommendation segment. I wanted to know what would you recommend people read after reading Playworld? And we have a very broad remit for this recommendation segment. This could be other books about

New York. There's going to be other coming of age novels. These could be characters who reminded you of Griffin and you're like, readers, go check out this. If you liked Griffin, go check out this book.

Very broad. Just what book would you recommend someone pick up next? I'm going to start with you, Sadie. Okay. I mean, he teased it up because he mentions it a lot, but I do think Catcher in the Rye. I had that on my list too. You go first. It's about a prep school boy and it really gets in his head effectively and well. And I would say Taffy Broderick's Sir Ackner's Long Island Compromise. She gets into some of the same milieu during a similar era and

And I would say my favorite New York kids book has still got to be How Little Laurie Went to Times Square. And speaking of free range kids. I don't know this one. Oh, check it out. And I have one more. If we can go multimedia, I would say definitely watch or rewatch Noah Baumbach's The Squid and the Whale, which I think deals with a lot of the same themes of coming of age and

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I'll go next. I also thought about J.D. Salinger. Catcher in the Rye definitely came to mind because I think the journeys are very similar. These very independent kids, very lost. But the character that came to me that I feel like is the strongest analog to Griffin is Zoe from The Glass Family. So a quick primer for anyone who needs a refresher or hasn't read them.

Salinger wrote many books, nine stories, Raise High the Roof Beans Carpenter and Seymour and Introduction, Franny and Zoe, that starred this fictional glass family. They were a family of...

tortured geniuses, and Zoe is the youngest boy. And Griffin and Zoe are very different. To start, Zoe is a genius, and Griffin is ailing and flailing in school. But something about them, they have a similar searching nature that made me think of Franny and Zoe. And forced to perform. And forced, exactly. So I'd say go read

any of J.D. Salinger's books after this. Then I thought of The Goldfinch by Donna Tartt, both for the New York part of it, but then talk about aimless coming-of-age stories. That Vegas section, I think the section that determines whether you love the book or hate the book, that Vegas section, I think I loved it as a beautiful, aimless teenage experience captured on the page. And then I thought of

One book, this is a shameless plug, that I want to mention is, if you like the wrestling components, read Headshot. And it's a shameless plug because that was a former Book Review Book Club pick. And I personally love that book. And then last but not least, this is a little bit left field, but I would recommend reading the Copenhagen Trilogy by Tove Ditliffsen. They're mainly the first section, the childhood section,

Because what I liked about that book and what I think is fully on display here is that back and forth seesawing that happens when you're growing up. I think in a lot of coming of age stories, it's like, I was a child and then I had this journey and now I'm an adult. But I think...

the Copenhagen trilogy and Playworld both show like when you're growing up, you learn a little bit and then you feel complicated about it and then you feel triumphant and then you're like, actually, I hate it. I want to be back as a kid. And you ping pong from seeming more like an adult and seeming like a child. And I think both of those books, Playworld and the Copenhagen trilogy, specifically the childhood section, captures just like that weird nuance of

that maelstrom of feelings and emotions and steps forward, some regression of being a teenager and growing up and striving for something. So those are my recommendations. What do you got, Dave?

I have to say, you put me on the spot a bit. So I'll go with the first book that popped into my head, although I'm not sure. I'm sure I'll think of others as soon as I leave. And that was Jakob von Gunten by the Swiss writer Robert Walser, which is also a coming-of-age novel. It's about a boy who comes from a wealthy family, but his father is this kind of overbearing guy, and he runs away from home, and he ends up at this...

enrolling in this school for aspiring servants, for it's like a finishing school for people who want to work in like service. And he develops this very kind of interesting relationship with the headmaster who is

is both a kind of whose approval he seeks, but he also hates. And this headmaster is both this kind of mentor, but also this abuser slash person who really oversteps boundaries. And that was the sort of first book that kind of popped into my head that I haven't read in a long time. Maybe this will encourage us to go read it and then you'll pick it back up. Yeah. Thank you for coming with a recommendation on the spot. Sure.

And unfortunately, that's all the time we have for today. Sadie, Dave, thank you so, so much. This is really fun and really thoughtful too. Thank you. And thank you to everyone online who read with us. Again, we have an article headline, Book Club Read Playworld by Adam Ross with the book review. Continue the conversation there. Now, time for our May Book Club reveal. In May, we will be reading and discussing The Safekeep by Yael van der Welden. The Safekeep is a book that is available on Amazon.

We have an article up on the New York Times' website, headlined, I bet you can guess it, Book Review, Read the Safe Keep by Yael VanderWouden with the book review. We want to be consistent so you can find us wherever you are. Chat with us and other readers about the book there. And then we'll chat about the novel also on the Book Review podcast that airs on May 30th. We hope you'll join us. And until then, happy reading. Thank you.

That was M.J. Franklin, Sadie Stein, and Dave Kim in our monthly book club episode, this time about the novel Playworld by Adam Ross. I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review. See you next time.

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