Book Club: Let's Talk About 'The Safekeep'
39:08 Share

New from legendary storyteller Stephen King. Never Flinch, a riveting new novel where vengeance has two faces. A killer on a twisted mission to murder 13 innocents and one guilty in the name of justice. A stalker in pursuit of a feminist icon. Two electrifying storylines and an unforgettable finale with fan favorite Holly Gibney caught in the crossfire. The New York Times says King raises the stakes and the body count as the twin plots converge.

I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review, and this is the Book Review Podcast. This week, our monthly book club episode. MJ Franklin and friends are here to discuss The Safekeep by Yael Vondervan. Here you go.

Hello, and welcome to another Book Club episode of the Book Review Podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm an editor here at the New York Times Book Review, and for this month's Book Review Book Club, we're talking about The Safekeep by Yael Vandervelden. The Safekeep came out last year, and I think it's safe to say it was one of the buzziest books of 2024.

In addition to the excitement and critical acclaim it earned, it was also nominated for the 2024 Booker Prize, with the Booker judges saying, quote, But that's only part of why we chose The Safekeep as our May Book Club book.

We also chose this just because personally, the safekeep has grown into my go-to book recommendation.

And if it's a book that I keep recommending, it's a book that I keep talking about, I think that makes a good book club book. Also, what's a book club without friends? Joining me in the studio are two returning guests, Jumana Khatib, a fellow editor here at The Book Review, and a familiar voice on The Book Review podcast. Hi, Jumana. Hi, MJ. I'm happy to be here. Thank you for coming back. And Anna Dubenko is the New York Times Newsroom's audience director and a friend of The Book Review. Welcome back.

Thank you for having me. I've been begging to come back and talk about this particular book. I am so excited to dig in. Before we dig in, though, I just have two admin notes up top. One is that at the end of the episode, we will reveal our June Book Club book, so stay with us until the end to find out what we're reading next. And then second, there will be spoilers in this conversation. This is one where there are so many plot twists that it's impossible to talk about this one without revealing something that isn't obvious from the start of the book.

But here's what we're going to do to try to keep this conversation more accessible to a general audience for people who have read this, who haven't.

We are going to try to keep the first half of this conversation spoiler light. There will be some spoilers. Again, it's hard to talk about without revealing something, but we will save the big twist to the second half of the episode. So choose your own adventure for this conversation. Listen to the first half, listen to the whole episode, pause, read the book, and then come back to us. I defer to you, but we are going to dig in. So without further ado, let's get to it.

To get us started, could someone give us a quick one-minute elevator synopsis of The Safe Keep? What is this book about?

I can try without spoilers. It's nearly impossible to say anything about the book without a spoiler, but I'll give it a shot. The first thing to know is that this book is a work of historical fiction. It takes place in the Netherlands in 1961, and that date is really important as it really sets the stage for what the characters remember or what they forget about who and where they were during the war.

It follows a protagonist, Isabel, who is really unlikable. She's a middle sister. The most unlikable thing there. I'm an only child, so I just, I call him like I see him. She's a middle sister and she lives in her family home, which is outside of the city. Her parents have passed. Her brothers, at least for the moment, don't have interest in the house, though she very much does have interest in this house that she owns.

resides in. She's both psychologically and physically circumscribed by the house and its care. And then one day she meets her older brother's girlfriend, Ava, who comes to stay for a few weeks in the summer.

How's that? I think that's good. Jumana, anything that you would add? No, I'm ready to get to this because Anna had a nice provocation when we were getting ready for this podcast where she said, Jumana, I can't wait to fight with you about this. And I was like, I like this book. I like this book a lot. Like, I'm not coming to the mat to fight. I'm ready to bask in shared glory here.

We never like the same book. I'm so excited. I know. I have many follow-up questions. One, I want to hear both of your thoughts about the book. I want to hear why you thought Jumana wouldn't, if it's just that you don't like the same books. Let's just, again, what are your general top-level thoughts about the book? Love it, hate it, feel mixed. You scooped it a little bit, but Jumana, talk to us. Okay, so I really liked this book. I...

She devoured it, much like Isabel eats a pear, core and all. That's not a spoiler. It's on the cover. That's not. Yeah, it's literally on the cover. So when I was reading a lot of reader feedback about this book, I saw how many people were like, Isabel is horrible. Like, I almost put the book down because I couldn't stand her. And I was like, oh, I never felt that way. I always felt a weird sort. I love an underdog. I love an underdog.

I was endeared to her, even though she was so annoying. If I had to live with her or let alone be like dealing with property or deeds or inheritances with her, I would do something drastic. Well, talk to us. What makes her annoying? What is she doing? What is she saying? Give us more of Isabel's character. She's so type A. She's extremely judgmental. She is obsessive. One of the opening gambits is that she finds a piece of

porcelain that belongs to a beloved plate. And part of Isabelle's whole life is that she's trying to maintain the house down to the T, to the way that her mother kept it. So she has this sort of almost like

holy ritual of polishing the flatware. And she thinks her maid is stealing from her. So she's counting spoons and she doesn't like Ava and she's judgmental about her brother's lifestyles and she's miserable. Right. And she doesn't even warm to the sort of local guy that's trying to take her out. She seems to me like a profoundly unhappy person. She's not a people pleaser.

To say the least. But then she's also grieving. She's grieving, too, deeply in her own way. She's the worst. She's so mean. But she's also lost...

And confused. And vulnerable. And vulnerable. Because the house is going to go to her older brother whenever he wants to start a family. So she's really, she's in this terrible limbo where it's like she's lucky that her brother sort of wants to carouse around and not settle down. But she could be evicted at any moment. She has no claim to that house. Some readers had that hurdle. They did not like Isabel. You didn't have an issue with her. Tell me more about your top level thoughts.

about the book? I think the book also was extremely well constructed. I think Anne

Anna, the way you're talking about how Isabel was constrained by the house psychologically and physically. I think that the way that the book is written really gets at that. It's so well done. And I frankly, I like the take on history. I like the twist. It didn't feel sticky. It didn't feel overdone. I do have to say, MJ, did I not call it? We're not going to talk it. We're not going to talk.

right now, but I have to say, I think I almost called it. I tried to be so like elliptical in my response to you because I didn't want to confirm or deny. You have a great poker face. Thank you. But we'll talk about the twist in a bit. Anna, tell me about your top level thoughts about this book and what did you think about Isabel? Let's start with the top level thoughts first. Well, just what Jumanis just said now about the

the construction of the book, that character of Isabel is so tightly wound in the beginning. She's always pinching the skin on the back of her hand. And then she, much like the narrative, unwinds in a really raucous way. I suppose we'll talk about chapter 10 when? First half? Yeah.

Maybe? Sure. I don't remember what happens in chapter 10. It's the chapter. Oh, it's the chapter. Okay, great, great, great. Yeah, we just, yeah. We're not numbers people. We work in the book review, Anna. Yeah, okay. But just to your point, I reread this book recently in preparation for this in two sittings on Mother's Day. It was a great Mother's Day read. And just going back and seeing how...

Tell me what you thought about Isabelle.

I became obsessed with her obsession. I think what she does so well is you think this book is about one thing. You think this book is about Isabel's grieving, her relationship to her mother, her relationship to herself. You get as obsessed with her as she is with herself. And that's what you think the book is about. And then you're

It turns. And in fact, that's a very that's an important sort of feeling that you're following her and you're just hyper focused on her inner life to to the detriment of being aware of what's going on around her.

So I thought that was really effective. How about you, MJ? What did you think? I have many thoughts about this book, which I'll share in a second. But first, I just want to share some online reader comments. We have an article up on the New York Times' website, headlined Book Club, Read the Safekeep by Yael van der Wouden with the book review. And there's a robust conversation boning in the comment section there. Here are just a few that I wanted to share.

Wavy from Vancouver says, having grown up in the Netherlands where World War II was a frequent topic at school and among classmates, quote, what brave thing did your parents slash grandparents do during the war? I was fascinated to see this side of it in literature and in translation. Not everyone was heroic, and I love that a piece of blue and white pottery brings this to light.

Beth from Oak Park says, This book grabbed a hold of me from the first paragraph. The broken china was a mystery, as was Isabel. Her character was so finely drawn. The house was its own character, too. I felt its creaks and sighs along with Isabel.

Nicholas from Madison writes,

And then one reader I'm so excited to bring into the conversation is Maddie, our audio engineer. Maddie is great. She is one of the people that makes sure that this show is even possible. She keeps me sane. Maddie, you have read this book independently with your book club. Can you tell us what did you think about this book? Longtime listener, first time caller. So happy to be here. Yeah, Maddie. But yeah, I feel like I agree with all of those reader comments and I don't want to spoil anything yet, but it was...

and hard to grapple with hearing a perspective of the Holocaust that hasn't really been explored in any media that I've consumed. So...

That was something to really examine. What did you think of Isabel? She was tough for me. I think I was probably closer in the camp of, man, I actually might not be able to see through this because I didn't like her. But you knew that eventually she was going to break. So I think you just had to keep that in mind to keep going. Readers, listeners, one of my favorite things to do is when we are debriefing the studio, I always ask Maddie, what are you reading right now? And you always are reading the most interesting things. So I'm glad this lined up. We couldn't do this without you, Maddie. Literally.

Thank you, Maddie. So, MJ, OK, you've put it off long enough. What are your thoughts about this book? The big mystery is... I'm not going to do the dance of the seven males with you. I really loved this book and I also marathon read it. I actually have this tradition that I do on New Year's Day every year where I marathon read my first book of the year on the first day of the year.

What else am I going to be doing on New Year's Day other than just sitting on the couch and I'm like, let's read a book. And this was it. And I've been obsessed with it ever since. Anna, you said something interesting that I completely agree with, which is the two tones of the book. The start of a book really is just Isabel and it's fruity, dark character study. And Isabel is...

mean but also so vulnerable and complicated in the ways we mentioned before and I just got sucked into her character she also in addition to being mean she can just drop a quippy one-liner that like I was literally snapping and cheering in my apartment like when she her brother says to her about Eva or Ava

you'll be nice to her. And she's like, I will be nothing to her. I love that. Yes, queen, we stand. Not a people pleaser until later. And then I feel like

The plot picks up and that just, the story just goes. And there are twist after twist. And you can see the twists from a mile away, but that doesn't make them any less satisfying to me. And I think that is a testament to Yael van der Waalden's writing. She creates such an intense emotional investment in these characters that we're not reading to figure out what happens per se. You're reading to be along with these people as it happens, right?

which I really loved. So I got nothing but praise for this book. We've been keeping this kind of spoiler light. We're still saving the big, big twist to later. But the first twist I'm just going to reveal. In the house, Isabel and Eva...

get together. After how many, like two weeks, right? Or is it longer? I actually don't know. Days feel like weeks in that house. So originally Ava was going to be there for a month while her boyfriend, who is Isabel's brother, was out of town for business. But yeah, for all we know, the way time moves in that house could have been five days, could have been two weeks, but yes. What did you make of that twist? I loved it. Tell me more. When they kissed? When they kissed? When...

Yeah. Tell me more. Tell me. Tell me everything. Do you read romance novels? Not really. I mean, I'm coming off of I'm coming off of that string of Emily Henry because I was like, oh, this is grumpy sunshine. Like I know the tropes now. A friend who is I am not a reader of romance novels, but a friend who is a reader of romance novels like you saw it coming from my way. And she's like, oh, this is a classic romance novel trope. To lovers. One house confinement. Yeah. Yeah.

For me, I knew that they were going to get together because it was pitched as like this queer historical novel. So I knew here are two women stuck in a house and

Something's going to happen. But it was so satisfying to me because of not just the enemies to lovers, but because of how isolated specifically Isabel seems. The romance wasn't to me just a triumph of a coupling, but it was looking at this person who was grieving and unraveling

Yeah.

in a way that also drew you in. Then you get the paracene. What's chapter 10? Is that the paracene or is that the public? That's when they actually have sex for the first time. And in the acknowledgments, if you'll indulge me, she ends with... This whole podcast is indulging you, by the way. To be clear. She says she's thanking her family.

And then she ends that graph with, thank you all for not talking to me about chapter 10. You're very respectful people. That is so European. I love that. I just, I was thinking about what it must be like to write that chapter.

Basically a chapter that is a sex, one long sex scene. One long sex scene. And have your family read it. Okay, so I actually, I'm glad you mentioned this because one, another recurring thing that I saw readers say is that they felt the sex was gratuitous and that they felt that the sex dragged on and it didn't advance the plot at all or it felt tedious, which is like the kiss of death for a sex scene. And I did not feel that way at all. I, I...

I actually had a lot of respect for how she staged the sex scenes because it's still so grounded in the house. There's a moment when Isabel is looking at Ava who's in bed and I think Isabel is sort of on the threshold of the door and it's like there's an entire room between them and they both knew it and crossing that space to go to her. I think it was beautifully done and I

I didn't feel that it was prurient or gratuitous at all. I respect the fact that people thought it was too much. It was well-earned because it was such a...

She had created such an atmosphere of tension that the release felt, if it were very short or pan to the fireplace style, I think it wouldn't have been as well earned. Yeah, yeah, I completely agree with that. And just even before we know the big twist, I did feel some tension.

karmic justice for Isabel where it's like, I mean, I know that I'm talking about her vulnerability and like she's kind of at her brother's whim, her uncle's whim, but like just knowing that she could be

for herself something that her brother had, it added to the satisfaction. What can I say? So that's chapter 10. But one of the things that we alluded to that we didn't totally dig in is the pericene. Can someone tell us what the pericene is? Yes, I will. I will take this one. So, so what's

Within days, I think Ava's going stir crazy in this house and she can't really understand how Isabel rarely leaves. And she says, I'm going to go into town. And Isabel's like, well, the only bike you can use is probably too big for you. I mean, like truly, truly like wet blanket. So, of course, Ava bikes into town and she comes back and Isabel returns to the house and she sees that Ava's gone.

bought two pairs for them. And... They're very ripe. Extremely ripe pairs. And such a moment of pleasure and succulence and, like, this, like, mausoleum-like house. Isabel is moved by the gesture because she still hasn't really made any accommodation for Eva whatsoever. And...

Of course it has an erotic feel to it. I mean, like, look at the pears on the cover. One of them is literally, has a beadlet of water dripping down it. And then finally, what Isabel does is she can't stand the thought of somebody seeing her

eat it because it's like too sensual it's too vulnerable it's too I think she's afraid of her own desire and like arousal maybe so she goes to her bed she's like she eats it like I think like an animal she eats the whole thing core and all and she has this habit of shoving quilts or blankets in her mouth when she's overwhelmed and that's what it felt like to me it very well done I with

Without any spoilers, though, I will say that scene when refracted through what we come to find later in the book about what Ava was doing when she went into town and Isabel's warning, like you don't even know how to get there and just how focused the reader is on the eating of the pair, her devouring the pair.

You are obsessed with Isabel, like I said before, as much as she is obsessed with herself in that moment. And there's this whole other narrative happening just outside of that pear eating that your attention is totally not drawn to because...

It is such a visceral moment. That whole pair scene is loaded with so much. And the reason why I also wanted to ask about it is because later on, there is... We were talking about how the sex is gratuitous, but it represents so much. And...

there's a sense that like, and just in sex writing in general, the sex is never just about the sex. It reveals so much in the same way. I think, did you say this online? That a fruit in literature is never just a fruit. It's so true. And I'm sorry, but like how much more could you want of a subversion of the fall of woman than a woman named Ava tempting Isabel with a pair? Again, doesn't hit you over the head, but hello. It's like,

Original woman here with a fruit. And it takes you to one of my favorite quotes from the book. I'm just going to read it. And it's Isabel and Ava having this conversation about their relationship. And Ava says, isn't it better than nothing? Isn't it enough? And Isabel and Vandervouden writes,

Isabel took a breath to answer and found that she had no answer to give, found that she did not know the precise meaning of the word "enough" the way Eva used it, not what it meant in relation to another, in relation to her. She had held a pear in her hand and she had eaten its skin and all, she had eaten the stem and she had eaten its seeds and she had eaten its core and the hunger still sat in her like an open maw.

Like the idea of fulfillment and pleasure and satisfaction and what is enough and it's connected to the sex and the fruit and this relationship and so much is happening and I feel like we could keep talking but I do want to talk about the big plot twists that happen which we will do shortly but first I think we should take a quick break. ♪

New from legendary storyteller Stephen King. Never Flinch, a riveting new novel where vengeance has two faces. A killer on a twisted mission to murder 13 innocents and one guilty in the name of justice. A stalker in pursuit of a feminist icon. Two electrifying storylines and an unforgettable finale with fan favorite Holly Gibney caught in the crossfire. The New York Times says King raises the stakes and the body count as the twin plots converge.

When the addiction is to murder, never flinch. Never flinch. New from Stephen King. Available in bookstores and online. Support for this podcast comes from Estee Lauder.

They really duped beauty sleep. Estee Lauder's Advanced Night Repair Serum helps your skin look like it got eight hours of beauty sleep, even if you didn't. In just one sleep, see immediate radiance and a reduction in fine lines. It really is beauty sleep in a bottle. Get ready to glow with Advanced Night Repair Serum at EsteeLauder.com. Friends don't let friends miss a good beauty sleep dupe.

And we're back. This is the Book For You podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm chatting with Jumona Khatib and Anna Dubenko, and we're talking about The Safe Keep by Yael van der Vouden. Before the break, we were talking about Isabel and Ava and the twist of their relationship. We were talking about the arc of the book overall. Now is a time where we talk about the big twist that happens. Spoiler alert for everyone. Now is the time to pause if you don't want to hear the big reveal. ♪

Pause over. Can someone tell us what happens? Yes. I literally like arm wrestled Anna for the opportunity to do this. So, so...

And I have to say this because I had this sneaking feeling. I was like, I never understood why Ava was with Isabel's brother, Louis. I never got that relationship. So I was like, she must have some ulterior motive here. And it turns out she does. She has a profound ulterior motive. And it's that the house that Isabel lives in, that's a place where she and her family fled to during the war when they were children. And

And, you know, their uncle found it for them. And it was obvious that somebody had been living there somewhat recently. And the family that was living there before Isabel's family arrived was Ava's family. This is her childhood home. She grew up there. She remembers her mother in the bedroom. The toys Isabel played with as a child were Ava's toys. And she feels like

rage at what's been taken from her. Ava is from a Jewish family and a lot of Jews were forced to flee. And Isabel's uncle said they didn't pay the mortgage on the house. They didn't pay taxes. So it was fair for us to basically squat there, take it over.

But that totally skims over the real issue, which is that these families were stripped of everything. They had to flee. They couldn't hold on to anything. And so Ava decides that she wants to go back to the house and take even a spoon, you know, like a plate. She wants to reclaim what her family owns bit by bit.

What did you, out of the way, what did you make of that twist? Jumana, you predicted it. Did you predict it? I did not. Wait, tell us more. I don't know how I missed it. I think because I was so, like I said, I thought the book was about one thing. It totally hit me over the head. And then I thought, of course, that's why we are obsessively describing her bleach blonde hair and her brown frizzy hair growing back.

and the poorly hemmed dress. And did you all catch that she, one night she decides to bake and she knows to bake enough bread on a Friday night that will last them through Sunday? I mean, these clues are sprinkled throughout. It's just so satisfying to read back, but I had absolutely no idea. I'll also just say, I was trying to think of other novels that really chronicled the immediate post-war Jewish experience, and I couldn't

think of very many. Like, what is it like? Okay, you're out of the camps. You go back to what does that feel like? I just couldn't think of having read many narratives like that. A friend of mine was telling me that this was like the first novel she can really think of. And it was just such a nice, like, it was filling in a nice gap in this sort of World War II literature. I totally missed the bread thing. The only reason that I thought it

Ava was Jewish was because there's this big thing where it's like, where is your family from? And she's like, I don't have anybody. And it's, oh, okay. Okay. That's what this is. There are also just like little clues too of Ava's familiarity with the area. Just like, she just seems so at home. I agree with you. I was like, why is Ava with Louis?

So I really liked the idea of the twist. One of the things that I really loved in its execution is Ava's anger, which I feel like I have read a lot of Holocaust books that rightfully look at the sadness, the mourning, the scale of the atrocity, and

But there's a somber tone to it. And this one was just utterly furious in a way that I found very refreshing because that's how you would feel if this atrocity happened, you got back and your home is taken and there's just people who are living there that say you have no claim to what is yours. You'd be furious. Yeah.

And also, I mean, I loved the tension that revealed within Ava herself, because when we meet her, she's implied to have this cheap dye job and she looks cheap and chintzy and not well-bred or however Isabel interprets her. And yet you can realize like how...

How she's translating this legitimate wrath and sense of retribution into this scheme. It's unbelievable. And like how hard she's working to like play the part, to ensnare Lewis, get to the house. It's incredible. It's incredible. And I loved that the perspective shifted into a diary as opposed to like an interior narration or something. Same.

And it's not like this big sweeping confession. She doesn't feel like she has to confess anything because it's her truth. So the tension is Ava is there to try to reclaim the house. But what is this relationship with Isabel? Was that all fake? What's going on? Isabel feels this connection. She's let someone in. What's happening there? And so she has this conversation with Ava and Isabel is now the one apologizing. And she says, I didn't know, not a thing. I didn't know a thing. And then Ava says,

I know you didn't. Isn't that funny? No one ever knows anything in this country. No one knows where they live, who did what, who went where. Everything is a mystery. Knowledge is elusive. People disappear in the middle of the night and then she gets cut off. But like her fury isn't just at Isabel for living in the house. It's her fury is this complicity of people like, yeah, people disappeared in the night and you didn't know, not because it was unknowable, but because you just didn't like,

To use a phrase that the writer Brandon Taylor says all the time, use your human mind. Yeah. Of course you should know. And she's mad about us skimming over it. Yeah. I read an interview with the author and I'm going to just paraphrase what she said was she said she wanted to. So often this kind of literature is told through the perspective of the victim.

And very rarely, not that there's maybe the perpetrator in certain cases, like a Nazi soldier, but she really wanted to focus in on this like...

other party in the war, which is and not only look at victimhood and not give the victim that kind of, to your point, to give the victim a sort of anger, but not dwell there. I think it was really effective that we didn't switch perspectives to Ava, but that it was all told through Isabel's point of view throughout, including reading the book. You are with Isabel

reading the journal along. And if you're like me and you didn't see it coming, totally shocked at what has been revealed. So I thought that was really effective too. So we've talked about the twist. Are there any other things that you want to talk about in with this book? Any other things that we haven't mentioned so far? You want to talk about the brothers, right, Anna? I want to talk about the brothers. But first, can we just quickly talk about the ending? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of ambiguity there in a very satisfying way, I thought.

They get together and live happily ever after? What's going on? That's my interpretation. I don't know. I mean, like, that last scene where they're discussing, I'll keep for you anything. Will you? I mean, it was amazing. You really do need your human mind to follow. I do believe that they ended up together. And, like, I have to hope. Certainly, the book ends on a hopeful note and, like, leaves open the possibility for happiness. Yeah.

We don't know. Because the power now is with Ava. But one of the things that I love that this twist reveals and that's been building all along is not just about these relationships, but I think there's this real core thread of ideas of inheritance, willful or not, of borrowed time. So like...

Like the tension with the house is that the house actually belongs to the uncle. And when the uncle passes, it goes to Louis, who is not living there. Isabel is living there, but she feels ownership of it. She's keeping it safe. She's keeping it safe. But she can be kicked out at any time. So she feels ownership, but it's not hers, but it is hers, but it's not. And that's the same thing that...

Ava and Isabel are dealing with. And there's that core theme. And so when the power switches... I'm not sure Ava has the power at the end, though. They have to live. There's no legal... They're not getting married. No, they're obviously not getting married. I think one thing we can say about Isabel is that she is...

a high-minded, almost single-focus person. And when her single focus becomes making Ava happy, I believe that she would do whatever she can. True. Chapter 10. There we go. All right. I don't know, though. I...

Maybe this is wishful thinking for me to want the power to swing in Ava's favor. That's what I wanted as well. Yeah, maybe it's wishful thinking. I think it's wishful thinking. I'm flipping through the book desperately trying to find a glimmer of power of hope. But it's

But see, I guess that's what I meant about the ambiguity. Yeah. My last thing that I want to say is I love the opening quite a lot. I feel like the opening reveals so much. And just symbolically, we have Isabel in the garden. That's where she finds the broken ceramic piece. But it's interesting because Isabel is...

It's the summer. She's tending to this garden and nothing's blooming. Everything's dead. And so like the imagery already is flipped. It casts this shadow over the entire book and it sets this brooding tone that I thought was so smart. And she plays so well with imagery and symbolism. The opening cues you in on quite a lot. Yeah. And when the shard opens,

pierces a little hole, but not enough to draw blood. And the sting, the pain goes away. It's all right there on the first page. You don't need to read another page. Yeah, stunning. And I'm going to borrow a great British bake-off term, but they always say it's a little triumph. This book is a little triumph. It is a little triumph. I love that phrase, the lip of summer, right? Or mouth like a violence. Do you remember that? It's good writing. It's beautiful. It really luxuries in language too.

Speaking of good writing, luxuriating in language, I wanted to open this conversation up and ask, are there any books that you would recommend readers pick up after they read The Safekeep? I'm going to follow your lead on why. Maybe this is another book that explores an under-discussed side of the Holocaust.

Maybe this is a book with a plot that builds and builds. Maybe this is a book that you're like, I want rainbows and sunshine after such a heavy book. I defer to you. I just want to know what book would you recommend readers pick up next? I'm going to start with you, Anna. Sure. I've got two, if that's okay. Of course. Okay.

The first is The Torqued Man. Have you? No, I don't know this one. Oh, my God. So excited. Blow my mind, Anna. It's by Peter Mann. It also has two narrators, maybe three, depending on how you're counting. Set in World War II, a series of recovered journal entries, queer love affair. I'm not going to say any more. Definitely more zany. Okay. Okay.

I think I'm there. Okay. That's all I'll say. It's like a real romp. Okay. And then the second book I want to recommend is The Little Stranger by Sarah Waters, which sort of picks up. It's a gothic thriller, which sort of picks up on whose house really is this really? Also set in post-war. This time it's in post-war England. Okay.

but picks up on similar themes of who can claim ownership to a house, a love affair gone wrong, but really fun gothic novel that's just as much of a page turner. Love both of those recommendations. Go check those out, readers. What about you, Jumana? What you got?

So this is, we're all a victim of time right now because the book that I'm reading is Mice 1961, which was a Pulitzer finalist this year. Now, not only is it set in the same year that The Safekeep is set, 1961, in the U.S. as like in Miami, right before the Bay of Pigs, it follows two women who are cloistered in their house with a dead mother, their two sisters. It's freaky. It's weird. It's,

I think if you like the sort of domestic drama set against a bigger political reckoning in a way that's not heavy handed, this is good. The other thing to say about Mice 1961 is that it is truly one of the most insane books I've read. The dialogue is crazy. The characters are nuts. Like this doesn't have the same...

tone as the safe key but it evoked similar feelings in me interesting I love this book I love I can tell I'm not gonna like it no I know you had me at freaky and weird I want to know what that is we need to honestly maybe we need to have a whole episode where you and I just yeah for subscribers only because I don't understand why our taste is that is so oppositional I actually don't either and you're both people that I go to for book recommendations this is fascinating to me this is why we love a book club yeah all right MJ

Alright, so my recommendation is the novel The New Life by Tom Crew. This is a fictionalized account of two men who pushed the gay rights movement forward before there really even was a gay rights movement. It's set at the end of the 19th century and we follow two people, John Addington and Henry Ellis, who are both gay.

And these are real men who worked on a study of what was called quote-unquote sexual inverts. John is an invert himself who starts an affair with a lower-class man. Henry is straight but married to a woman, Edith, who turns out to be a lesbian. And Henry himself has his own kinks and preferences. And the book is about these complicated relationships as they work on their study.

Then, around the same time, Oscar Wilde is writing. He is arrested and put on trial for, quote, gross indecency. That just puts in stark relief, like, the danger that John and Henry could face if they were to publish this book. So then the book morphs to not just telling the story of their relationships, but also it opens up this greater question of what are we willing to risk for social progress, right?

The book is smart and considered and steamy. And it's one that like you dive into a part of history that you haven't heard of before. And it's good. So that's The New Life by Tom Cruise. I really recommend it.

And that is all the time we have for today, unfortunately. Anna, Jumana, thank you so much. This is really fun. I came back from the dead just to tape this podcast. Thank you for coming here. We found peace in this studio, which is also a beautiful thing. We really did. Also, thank you to everyone online who read with us. Again, we have an article headline, Book Club, Read the Safe Keep by Al Van Der Waalden with the book review. Continue the conversation there. And as promised, here is our June book.

In June, we're reading Mrs. Dalloway by one Virginia Woolf. The book turned 100 years old on May 14th, so we figured let's chat about the book and its impact. Right now, there's an article up on the New York Times' website headlined Book Club. Read Mrs. Dalloway with a book review. You can share your thoughts there, and we'll be talking about the book on the Book Review Podcast on June 27th. We hope you'll join us, and in the meantime, happy reading. ♪

That was M.J. Franklin, Anna Dubenko, and Jumanica Teague in conversation about The Safe Keep by Yael Vandervaten. I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review. Thanks for listening.

You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy, just use Indeed. Join the 3.5 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to hire great talent fast. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed.

And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash NYT. Just go to Indeed.com slash NYT right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash NYT. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring? Indeed is all you need.