Curating Chinese Internet Culture for Global Audiences with What's on Weibo founder Manya Koetse
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Hello and welcome to another edition of Barbarians at the Gate. This is Jeremiah Jenny recording from Geneva, Switzerland, the city by the lake.

With me, as always, is my co-host, David Moser. David, how are things back in Beijing? Yeah, back in balmy, beautiful Beijing. It's the most beautiful time of the year here. Just got back from the U.S. attending the AAS convention that I go to every year and ran into two of our old friends and podcast guests. Alec Ash was there. I hung out with him.

Got a little bit drunk with him. For our listeners, he was in a couple of our podcasts, wrote the book, The Mountain is High. You can go back and find out who he is if you don't know. And also Yang Fan, who wrote the book, Disorienting Politics. I saw her there. She is so delightful. She is so funny. We really got to get her back on the show. And she has a lot of different interests too. And also several people, I don't know how many, came up and said,

Hi, I really enjoy your podcast, which always shocks but also delights me because I don't know if anyone actually ever listens to us, but some people do. So, in fact, there was a woman who said, I can always tell the difference between your voice and Jeremiah's, which I thought was a weird thing to say, but kind of interpreted as her saying that my voice is sexy.

And yours is not. I'm just glad there's a differentiation between the two. With us today is Manja Kutse calling in from the Netherlands. Manja is a writer, researcher, and as many of you know, the founder and inspiration behind the absolutely invaluable platform,

What's on Weibo. Manya has an extensive background in linguistics, literary studies, sinology, Japanology. She studied at Peking University, where I studied at one point and where David taught for many years. And her specialties include a broad range of topics, including digital culture, social trends, history, and of course, China and East Asian politics. We're so glad you could join us today. How are you doing? I'm fine. Thank you.

Glad to be here. So, Manya, I know a lot of people who follow China are familiar with your work, with your research, and of course, with all the great content you do on what's on Weibo. But I was wondering if you could give us a sense of what's your China story? Yeah, how did it all start? Well, for me, it started in Japan, in a way.

One day I was walking in my high school hallways and I saw a big poster saying, go see Japan. Are you a teenager wanting to spend a year in Japan then?

apply now. And that was a very special program. Only 10 people from the Netherlands in between the ages of 15 and 17 years old, I believe, were sent out to spend a year in Japan. And I applied because I had already a big interest in Asia when I was young. My mom was doing a lot of business there. She was going to Japan and, by the way, to China as well. I got to spend a year at a high school in Japan with a Japanese family. And that was an experience that really shaped me

I don't know if you know the feeling of being in a group of people where you do not know the language, you do not know the culture. Nobody spoke English. I seriously, at that time I was 16, I felt I had landed on Mars.

And that year I picked up the language very quickly and I got to understand the culture, the history more. And then I got to realize that a lot of what was going on in Japan in terms of history, religion, architecture, culture actually has its roots in China.

So for me, that planted the seeds of my China interest. And then I finally went on to study Japanology at Leiden University in the Netherlands. And that is in one little building with all the China people. And then during the smoke breaks, the coffee breaks, I found out I had much more in common with all...

China people. So that's how I eventually ended up in Beijing at Peking University during the 2008 wonderful year of the Olympics, which was a very exciting time to be in China. So Manu, this has been how long? What's on Weibo? What's the actual number of years?

So I started, I think I registered the domain name in 2012 and launched the site in 2013. Remember that very, very clearly how I got the idea. That was because I have a lovely group of friends in Beijing and I felt off.

during our nights out that I was missing out on a lot of the things that they were talking about. And I'm sure that you're all familiar with Wo Pa She Li Gang, my dad is Li Gang. For the listeners who do not know, this was the son of a local official who had a terrible drunk drive incident. He killed one student

at a university campus. And the moment that he was caught, one of the first things he said is, "Do you know, how do you dare sue me? Do you know who my dad is? My dad is Li Gang." And that became kind of a running joke in China at the time, this was 2010.

And they were making these references where everyone would say, no matter what context, you know who my dad is? What do you want to do? So, of course, it came from a place of unjust and social injustice and anger about that. But as often happens in China, this turns into humor, sarcasm, irony. And all of these kinds of little references found their roots on Chinese social media. So for me,

At a certain point, I just wanted to know what is on Weibo. Literally, that is what I wanted to know. What's on Weibo? So I thought, hey, that's maybe a good name. And that's how I first registered the name and then started exploring the daily trending topics just to keep up with my friends. And then it turned out that there was a big audience for that. And many people wanted to know what was going on on Weibo.

You've just given a perfect example of what's special about your site, which is that there are so many things like that. Yeah, well, Baba should be gone. You know, that sort of scandal is one of those things that appears in China and just explodes. Your site documents those, archives those, and gives, you know, a social critique.

and analysis. It's a great database. And I was going to ask you about the reaction to that because your site is not just interesting in what's happening right now, but you can go back and actually revisit these things that have disappeared.

from, it might be still out there on New York Times articles, but it's a lot of Googling to find all those, but it's all condensed into your site. Yes, exactly. And what you see is that often at a certain point you have this online collective memory, right? That offline and online, it all blends together, but you see it coming back all the time. For example, over the

Last month, this one sentence that had gone viral a decade ago, again went viral. And I think many people familiar with China or who have Chinese friends might know the sentence, "The world is so big, I want to go out and see it." " 世界那么大,我想去看看。 " And that was a teacher 10 years ago who had been teaching for many years. And at a certain point,

She had this epiphany that, you know, the world is so big, I'm going to resign. And she just left a resignation note saying the world is so big, I want to go out, see it. And it was accepted, her resignation. And that one little note went viral because I think it struck a chord with so many people

in a time when China was rising, but a lot of people still didn't have a lot of money to go abroad or to travel. You know, the big travel boom among younger generations has started, especially in the past few years. So it's like these little things. And then a sentence like that becomes part of, like I said, a collective memory. Everybody uses it. Everybody knows what it's about. And this month it was revisited because...

we wanted to find out if that teacher actually did go out and see the world. Little spoiler is that she didn't, but she did have a child and she did travel many parts of China. And I think part of the message that was told about this is that there's so much to see in China as well, that you actually, that's also a way to explore the world. Of course, this was also a state media report. So China is best. It's interesting that you bring up

up that idea of revisiting because as a historian, and I think many historians express some dismay over the ephemeral nature of online communications. It's common to say it's on social media, it's forever. But in terms of how historians think, it's not forever.

And these things are in danger sometimes of disappearing off the Internet. And moreover, even if it's out there somewhere, it's so uncurated that from the perspective of either researchers now or researchers in the future trying to go back and revisit these moments online,

is quite difficult. And so I think about what you've been doing in terms of not just the preservation, but the curation, the collecting. It's the kind of thing that archivists have been doing for, or librarians have been doing for generations, for centuries, millennia in some cases,

And I think that's one reason why what's on Weibo is so valuable. Yeah, thanks for saying that. It is something I'm struggling with now, actually, in my work. I think after doing something for 10, 11 years, everyone will surely hit a moment where you're reevaluating what you're doing.

And for me, it's sometimes pretty tough because I'm running it all alone. I'm doing the website, the writing. Mostly I do have some help, but mostly I'm running everything alone. But we're now in this AI era where everybody can look up everything. We're in this era where there are hot and trending lists everywhere. Newsletters flood your inbox. And I cannot...

hang on to every single trend. I cannot cover every single thing. So right now I'm trying to find a workflow where I pick the trends, I curate the trends that I feel mean a little bit more. Of course, here and there you have some funny memes, but it's

Even those funny memes often can have a much deeper meaning. So what I'm trying to do is comb out the social media trending lists and see what is actually worth reporting about. What is the story behind that hashtag? And that is what I'm trying to do now. And I'm trying to let go of the more fleeting topics that perhaps aren't that interesting to look at.

Just a little bit of history there is that back when Weibo began to become cracked down on by the authorities because there were getting to be too many big Vs who were getting very dangerous because they could send out a little bit of criticism or something that the government didn't want to be out there. And instantly, tens of millions in some cases would instantly get the information. So what they did was crack down on the virality of it to make it

Punitive if you have more than whatever it was, 1,500 retweets or something like that. But what happened then is that a lot of people switched to WeChat because the format is different. The structure is different. So you only are communicating with the people that are in your little circle that you create. Whereas Weibo, you put it out there and it's just out to the whole planet, right?

Those are two very different environments. Do they bleed through into each other? Oh, yes, definitely. I think right now what we're seeing, we're hitting a new phase in social media, not just in China, but everywhere, actually, where the Internet is no longer dominated by a few giants, but smaller players emerge and everybody's finding their own niche. Since AI is playing such a huge role now, it's all about personalized content, niche communities,

And this is as much true for the US as it is for China. WeChat is an excellent example because it is the biggest app in China, but there are hundreds and thousands of channels on WeChat where people can follow the news that they like.

So it's very hard to say something about WeChat because it is like one third of China's online time is spent on WeChat. So it is a big part of China's online world. Weibo, again, is different. Of course, it's also a digital dinosaur in the sense that it's been around since 2009. But Weibo is much more like the living room of online discussions nowadays. Whereas WeChat is taking place on a lot of different channels in a lot of different rooms online.

Weibo is like the big marketplace where people still come to discuss

emerging events. And I think especially during the COVID era, you saw that although Weibo had some ups and downs throughout the years, in those first months of COVID, it became a crucial platform for people to seek assistance, to search for new information, the latest updates, where is the COVID new boom happening, who is, you know, all the latest info. So I think a

As for now, there are still no other platform in China that has that function. Although you now have, you know, Xiao Hongshu, Red Note, and you have the Chinese TikTok Douyin, and you have Kuai Shou and Bilibili and so many others. But still, Weibo has that central living room function. It's really interesting to think about how social media evolves over time in China and around the world. And I was wondering, as the use of Weibo, as its purpose,

its purpose as the communities that are built within these different social media networks change. What does that mean in terms of demographics? Not necessarily what they're using it for, but who is using it? And just to use a reference from, say, American social media, you can look at generations based upon what they log into, whether it's Facebook for the boomers, Instagram for the millennials, whatever Gen Z and Generation Alpha look like.

Do we see similar patterns on Chinese social media as well? Yes, definitely. WeChat, for example, is so commonly used that that's probably a pretty fair representation of China's online demographics.

But if you look at a website like Bilibili, for example, I'm not sure all listeners will be familiar with it, but it's an online content video site that is more focused on anime, games, popular culture. And you'll see that there is more than 60% of male users, for example, in between the ages of 18 and 35.

Then the platform that I find so interesting is Kuaishou. I think they once tried to launch it as Kua in the English language media sphere, but it never really happened. But 90% of the people are under 35, so it's very young and it's very rural focused. Over 60% of its users are based in the countryside or in China's more rural areas. Moreover, they have a strong interest in things associated with agriculture.

If you look at a platform like Kuaishou, the content you get is so different from a platform like Red Note or Xiaohongshu, where the majority of the users are female, urban, highly educated. So definitely you have a lot of different islands in this Chinese online media sphere where you'll find very different people.

On Weibo, you find a little bit older people, but overall a fair representation between men and women. I believe 51% female, 49% male. So I still think that Weibo is a pretty fair barometer, but it's mostly people who are into news-related social topics and celebrity culture.

And then for me, it's very important to try and check out the other platforms as well, as you'll find different kinds of environments again. And also, for example, like Xiaorongshu or Douyin, those are real breeding grounds for the new memes. And they flood onto Weibo or WeChat afterwards, but that's where they start.

So, yeah, it's all getting much more complex, much more dynamic, and for me, much more interesting as well. What's around the Olympics, of course, and before and after you begin to get lots of patriotic feeling on the internet and a lot of pushback against, you know, the foreign media. But you also had a lots of like my father is Li Gang kinds of scandals that were directed toward the government or toward China itself.

But when I look now at Weibo and other sites, I see a lot of satire and mocking and criticism of the US and especially Trump, who's mercilessly ripped on Weibo all the time. And they also have lots of Stephen Colbert, Jimmy Kimmel clips that make fun of the president. If we got on your site, could we see a shift in terms of the Chinese identity among the people who are dealing in Weibo?

Yes, definitely. That's a good question. A little bit, I will answer it, but a little bit of a sidestep here. So a few years ago, I would often get hate mail or criticism on social media from people who said I was anti-Chinese or I was probably sponsored by some anti-Chinese sources or whatever. People always try to find out who is sponsoring me or who is behind what's on Weibo. Well, just me. I'm 100% independent.

But recently, I found also some criticism of people saying that I'm too pro-China, you know, that I'm like a new channel for propaganda. And I've been wondering, thinking about this, you know, of course, you should never listen too much to people who just have criticism without in a mean way that isn't helpful.

but it has to do with the narrative that is changing. So a few years back, you would see so much criticism, so much of the trending topics on Chinese social media were related to criticism of local authorities, corruption, food scandals,

So I think if you cover that all the time and you look at the website, it might seem, oh, this is maybe a site that's quite critical of China. Lately, especially the last year with the launch of Black Myth Wukong, you know, the Chinese game that became a global sensation. Now you have Deep Seek, the Chinese AI model that became a big sensation. Nezha 2, the film, Chinese animation film, which became the number one

globally of all time. So you have so many successes and I really sense that lately a lot of the trending topics are associated with a new kind of cultural confidence, patriotism, but really a different level from 2008 or 2009. Of course, there's still a lot of criticism, but it also means that I do cover these more positive trending topics as well that put China in a positive light.

And yeah, so in that way, I really think that if you look at the kind of big topics, the big things that were worth analyzing over the past decade, there's definitely now a trend of confidence in China that I haven't seen before, and especially also among younger generations. And it goes hand in hand with anti-American or maybe even anti-Western sentiments. I think if you're getting that kind of pushback from different

different sides of the spectrum probably suggests you're doing something right. And I think also...

Having seen some of these criticisms over the years directed at different researchers, journalists, or people who follow China, I almost feel like what's on Weibo was a difficult one to criticize in that way because really you're reporting what is trending. If people are upset with what is trending in China in any particular era or year,

Well, that's not necessarily the fault of the person who's recording it. It's just what is happening online and whether that's criticism or things that perhaps some people in China would rather not discuss outside of China or as you talked about now, that people are quite confident or touting China's success as a particular.

particularly at a time when the alternative systems don't seem to be functioning all that well. Is it any surprise, perhaps, that there are people in China? And don't get me wrong, it's still a closed media environment. There's still a lot of reasons why good news is amplified, bad news is...

of course, suppressed. But at the same time, as a long-term trend line, is it any surprise that you're getting this kind of confidence coming in right now? Is this something you expect to see continue on into the future? Or is this something that is perhaps reflective of a particular moment we're having right now where China's having a lot of success and other countries perhaps are struggling? Exactly.

Exactly. It's all connected together. I mean, changing attitudes or whether or not this China confidence will continue to rise, it also depends on attitudes towards China. So what I saw during, for example, the Hong Kong protests in 2019,

is that you also saw this wave of nationalism on Chinese social media suggesting that the Hong Kong protests were actually instigated by American forces. And it's quite unpredictable sometimes. It also really depends on what state media is doing and which narratives they're pushing. Because let's not forget, on a platform like Weibo, but on most of the other social media platforms in China as well, you have thousands of official media accounts.

On Weibo alone, it's about 17,000, I believe. And you have, of course, the big ones like People's Daily, CCTV, but you have countless of local outlets that all fall under this umbrella. And together, the power they have to boost certain narratives is enormous when it comes to Hong Kong, when it comes to Taiwan, when it comes to other issues.

I'm really keeping a finger on the pulse when it comes to that, especially with a focus on Taiwan, which is something that for the coming few years we'll of course see much, much more. I wonder if Weibo has become more commercialized in the sense of presenting more tawdry and a little bit off color content is accepted. When I began to sort of get back into Weibo maybe a few years ago, I began to notice there's a lot of clips on there that are just basically soft core porn.

I thought, how could this be in such a conservative state media? Now, I thought, did I trigger an algorithm? Because I know that sometimes... David! Yeah, I know. If you actually keep, you know, clicking on what you like, then I suppose Weibo uses such algorithms. I mean, right. But overall, do you think that Weibo has sort of had to pander to allow some sort of more open material in order just to keep clicking?

No, I don't think so. I think that it has been this way always. And there's a big misconception about Chinese social media in the sense that people think it's so highly controlled that everything is controlled. But actually, only political content or social content that has the potential to spark unrest, that is controlled. But when you talk about gruesome content, vulgar content,

animal abuse, shocking incidents, death, violence. You see so much on Weibo. Sometimes after scrolling for half an hour a day, I have to put my phone away because, okay, I've seen enough gore and blood for the day. You would never see that on Facebook or on Instagram or even on TikTok, which is adhering to more Western modes of censorship. So

In a way, this funny situation is that there's a lot less censorship on Chinese social media when it comes to things like that. So that really means that we have very, very different social media environments when it comes to the more American-dominated one and the Chinese-dominated one. So that was a long answer for your question, but no, you will always find that. Rest assured, you can watch a lot of things that you find entertaining on Chinese social media still.

As what's on Wayboy itself is evolving, as your project and as your mission is evolving, could you tell us a little bit more about what's the next phase in your work and what's

What is the next chapter, if you will, for What's on Weibo and your different projects? Yes. So it's the 12th year of What's on Weibo. And it's a new, yeah, it's a turning point. It's a new chapter. So I introduced something that I call What's on Weibo chapters. And what I want to do is besides still keeping a finger on the pulse of Chinese social media, keeping track of the trending topics, especially through my newsletter, Weibo Watch,

I want to dive deeper behind topics that are going on right now. For example, right now, Chinese online discourse on Russia-Ukraine war or the status quo of Weibo after having been around for 15 years. So I want to dive deeper behind those broader topics. And that's what I'm doing now. So more analysis, more depth, more background information. And it's kind of necessary for me as well.

After so many years, I feel like I want to do that, go deeper. But at the same time, in this chat GPT era, I think everybody can keep track of what's trending right now on Chinese social media. So for me, my role is no longer just to say like, "Okay, this is happening. That celebrity has passed away," or "He made a new track," or, you know, I used to keep track of all those big trending topics.

I no longer want to do that because it's not useful anymore. So I'm going to do something that I think I'm good at and take my expertise and bring more depth to these fleeting, sometimes trending topics.

So that's what I'm offering now on What's on Weibo. And I'm completely independent. So for me, subscribers are very, very important. So for any listeners who think this is something they find interesting, please do subscribe. You get the Weibo Watch newsletter and you get all those background articles. Plus, like David said, 12 years of archives that will give you a really good sense of what's been going on on Weibo.

That's great. For those people who are interested in keeping up with your research, we'll be sure to have links to all of that in the show notes. Mania, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to join us today. We really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. And David, thank you for staying up.

Late? Not late. What time is it there? It's almost five o'clock in the afternoon, but I'm still out over jet lag from AES. So actually, today I slept until two o'clock in the afternoon. So it's early morning for me. I'm going to get breakfast after this. Maybe just stay in this time zone. Keeping those jazz musician hours, I see. Exactly, exactly. And thank you to all of you who have listened. You can find Barbarians at the Gate wherever great podcasts are given away for free.

Thank you and join us again soon.