BONUS POD: Shawn Fain, President of the United Automobile Workers Union
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Shop Abercrombie's new long weekend collection online or in store. Hello, everyone. This is Chief Washington Correspondent Major Garrett in for Margaret Brennan on Face the Nation. This week, we interviewed Sean Fain, the president of the United Auto Workers Union. Here is an extended cut of our conversation.

We go now to the President of the United Auto Workers Union, Sean Fain. Sean, it's great to have you with us. I appreciate the time. Let's start very simply on the question of tariffs on autos and auto parts. Fundamentally and quite simply, why do you believe those are helpful for your membership? Thanks for having me.

All you have to do is look at the history of the United States, especially in auto manufacturing in the last 30 years with the inception of NAFTA and unfair trade laws. We've seen over 90,000 manufacturing facilities leave the United States. We've seen in the big three alone in the last 20 plus years, 65 plants have closed. You know, and so look, tariffs aren't the total solution. Tariffs are a tool in the toolbox.

to get these companies to do the right thing and the intent behind it is to bring jobs back here and invest in the American workers. The American working class people have been left behind for decades and they're sick of it. It's a massive struggle. People are struggling just to survive right now, to get by. There's two parts to the tariffs though. The tariffs are a motivator. We have to fix the broken trade laws. And the other thing to me is,

You know, these can't just be,

Just, you know, as with the Biden administration, when they did the stuff for battery work and EV work, we had to come in and say, no, these can't just be union jobs or jobs. They got to be good paying union jobs that set standards. So the big part of this that gets left out a lot of times is if they're going to bring jobs back here, you know, they need to be life sustaining jobs where people can make a good wage, a living wage, have adequate health care and have a retirement security and not have to work seven days a week.

or multiple jobs just to scrape to get by paycheck to paycheck. Do you have assurances from the Trump administration as you dialogue with it about those things you just laid out? Not just jobs, but a substantial wage, health care and the like? I mean, that is the conversation we're having, naturally. I mean, you know, that's the part of this. I mean, look...

I'll be honest with you. Every time we speak, we talk about bringing jobs back, about bringing the manufacturing base back in this country. But it doesn't do any good if they're going to locate them in places and they're not going to have the opportunity to have a union. And so naturally, we have concerns. We have great concerns after what happened last night with the stroke of a marker.

You know, Trump eliminated bargaining or eliminated contracts for 700,000 federal workers. You know, we have concerns with what's going on with our higher education sector that we represent. We have members who are being detained. You know, their right to free speech being violated. We have workers at the National Institute of Health that provide vital research and that is for the betterment of the people. So, you know, we have big concerns with that.

So naturally, yes, every time we talk about trade, talk about tariffs, it's an integral part of that. These have to be good paying union jobs. I'll get back to the tariffs and autos in a second, but since you brought up this executive order, it regards an effort by the Trump administration through the president

to stop or certainly dramatically slow collective bargaining for federal workers. Randy Irvin, who's currently the president of the National Federation of the Federal Employees, calls it the biggest assault on collective bargaining he has ever seen. Do you agree with those sentiments? Exactly. I mean, spot on. Look, I remember when I was 12 years old when Reagan busted the PACO workers. You know, that was a massive issue back then. The Air Traffic Controllers Union, yes. We heard a lot of people talk about the labor...

Yes, yes. And you know that labor should have done more then. Look, this is 100 times worse than PACO ever dreamed of being. When you're talking 700,000 people, their contracts just being...

taken away. And so, you know, as I said, you know, free speech is under attack. Unions are under attack. You look at the changes to the NLRB. You look at the situation with Department of Labor, Department of Education, you know, Veterans Affairs. I mean, why are all these things under attack? Medicare, Social Security. It's because, you know, billionaires want more tax cuts for themselves. And it's been proven time and again that's not what works for America. That's not good for the American people.

The working class people in America, they want their fair share. They're not asking to be rich. They just want a decent standard of living. And again, that goes back to what we call our four core issues. You know, living wages, adequate health care, retirement security, and having some quality of life other than just everything revolving around work. So for those listening to you, Sean,

Do you want them to conclude, well, if we get the tariffs and there are a few more auto jobs, it's worth all the other terrible, or maybe not terrible, that's too strong a word, but all the other things you just talked about, Medicaid, free speech, collective bargaining, is that a deal that's worth them taking? Not at all. Let me be clear about this, you know, because I think this is being misconstrued here. There's been no change in where we stand politically as a union and what our stance is. Look, we've been very clear since day one in my administration that

You know, we have expectations. Endorsements are earned. But at the end of the day, like we're not, you know, we're not partisan to anyone, any one party here. We expect no matter what party someone comes from to stand up for what we believe in. So just because we find common ground on tariffs or on trade doesn't mean that everything else goes out the window.

It's despicable what happened last night. It's despicable some of the other things that are going on. Like I said, some of our members have been detained. Their jobs are being threatened and it's unacceptable. So no, there is no trade off here. So we continue to do what we do. We have integrity. When we can work with a politician on an issue,

AND WE GET TRACTION, WE'RE GOING TO WORK WITH THEM. BUT WHERE WE CAN'T, WE'RE GOING TO BE JUST AS VOCAL. UNDERSTOOD. LET'S GET BACK TO THE TERRORISTS AND THE AUTO INDUSTRY. PETER NAVARRO, A TOP ADVISOR TO THE PRESIDENT ON TRADE, SAYS CURRENTLY

Automobile manufacturing plants are at about 60% capacity. He argues that there's lots of untapped capacity, meaning jobs could be created relatively easy and you wouldn't need to spend two or three or maybe five years building new factories. Is that your understanding? Is that your belief?

It's spot on. Look, we have a situation right now in Warren, Michigan where 2,000 workers were laid off this past year. They built the Ram truck there for years under Stellantis. And Stellantis made a decision to shift that production to Mexico. They could shift that work back in very short order and be producing Ram trucks right back there and put those people back to work. I was just at Volkswagen this week, you know, talking with workers down there that are trying to get their first contract.

AND THE COMPANY ANNOUNCED A REDUCTION OF A SHIFT. MEANWHILE, VOLKSWAGEN IS THE BIGGEST VIOLATOR OF ALL. 75% OF THEIR PRODUCTION FOR THE NORTH AMERICAN MARKET IS MADE IN MEXICO. SO THEY CAN SHIFT PRODUCT THERE OVERNIGHT. THERE'S EXCESS CAPACITY. YOU KNOW, WE -- PEOPLE FORGET THIS LESSON IN WORLD WAR II. THE WAY THAT WE FORMED THE ARSENAL DEMOCRACY THAT WON THE WAR WAS THEY TOOK THE EXCESS CAPACITY

of all the automotive manufacturing plants in the country and produce tanks and planes and bombs and engines and all those things. And it's no different right now. We have excess capacity. They could bring work back in very short order. And yes, they're in a situation where they need to build a new plant. Yeah, that's going to take a couple years. But there is plenty of opportunity for these companies to do the right thing and bring work back here overnight, just as quick as they shipped it out of here. And Sean, for people who are listening to you, how do tariffs make that happen?

What is the relationship between a 20 or 25 percent tariff and getting that capacity back up to where you'd like it to see? You'd like to see it. Well, because like everything, the companies abuse the process. I mean, they're in the pursuit of driving a race to the bottom. I mean, the tariffs are, you know, there was a major promise with NAFTA. We go back to when NAFTA happened in 1992, the big debate, and Ross Perot talked about the giant sucking sound that our manufacturing base was going to disappear. He was spot on.

And we saw what happened in the ensuing 30 years. We've seen 90,000 plants leave. Like I said, we've seen 65 plants in the big three close. Look, right now, as we speak, in Wisconsin, we have a deer plant threatening to be closed and they're being threatened to go to Mexico. We have a heavy truck plant at Volvo and Mack Truck in Pennsylvania being threatened to be taken to Mexico. There is plenty of opportunity there.

And that's the reality that we've seen here in America. So tariffs are a tool in the toolbox. They're not the end all solution. We have to fix the broken trade system. But the way tariffs work, I mean, it's a motivator because there's going to be a penalty for everything the companies ship in here. And I've had companies tell us point blank that they're going to have to bring product back here if those tariffs are implemented.

You mentioned NAFTA. Of course, NAFTA has been replaced by USMCA. And I well remember, and you might remember this, Sean, January 2020, President Trump in the Rose Garden said the following. The USMCA is the largest, fairest, most balanced and modern trade agreement ever achieved. The USMCA is estimated to add another 1.2% to our GDP and create countless new American jobs.

It will make our blue collar boom. Is USMCA a part of this problem negotiated by President Trump? Well, yes, I mean USMCA, I mean obviously there were changes made, there were some improvements, but it didn't go far enough. There were still a lot of loopholes in it and as a result of the renegotiated NAFTA, we still saw an increase in the deficit we have, especially with Mexico. But at the end of the day, it's up for renegotiation next year, so nothing stops them.

from getting to work, you know, and we're right here. We're here every day. We've been very open with them about we want to work with them. We want to find ways to fix the USMCA and fix the atrocities of NAFTA that the working class in this country have suffered and the communities in this country have suffered for decades. Your snacking routine can get a little dull. Time for an Oikos Remix or Light and Fit Remix.

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because of consumer anxiety over sticky inflation, meaning persistent inflation, and nervousness about cost impacts of tariffs. If 700,000 cars or trucks, fewer, are being made and sold, how does that help your workforce?

Well, it doesn't, but we need to take a hard look at this because the same economists that are saying this now are the same ones in 1992 that said overnight when NAFTA was created, there would be 400,000 jobs created in America in the first year. We know what happened there. They got it wrong. And the interesting part of me, all this crying about the effects of tariffs,

I find it interesting because to me this is just Wall Street. Now that Wall Street's upset about it, it's an issue. Where was Wall Street when all these manufacturing facilities have been leaving the country in the last 30 years? Interestingly enough, automotive companies in the last three years, 2019 to 2023, they jacked up the price of vehicles 35% to 40% over that timeframe. Not because of anything to happen, not because wages went up,

It was just flat out price gouging to consumer and corporate greed. Where was the outcry then? They don't have to raise the price of vehicles a penny with these tariffs. It's a decision that the companies are making, and that lays straight in the hands of the companies. The White House also says when it comes to the auto industry currently,

We are essentially an assembly auto industry. We don't make drive trains, we don't make the things within the car that have the most material value and the most worker involvement.

A, is that true? And B, how does that change? Well, it's somewhat true. There's been a huge shift in the last several decades, thanks to the unfair trade laws, where a lot of the, you know, the parts, the supply chain, the parts and the engines and transmissions have been sourced. But we still do produce those things. I can tell you where I come from in Kokomo, Indiana.

We still make the transmissions, we make engine blocks, we still produce engines here in Michigan in the big three. So we still do some of that work. I mean, we've brought some of the battery work in thanks to the Biden administration and their plans with the IRA. I mean, so we're working on a lot of that work. So that is powertrain type work. So the drive trains, things like that. But yes, a lot of that work was sourced, it was casualties of NAFTA and broken trade laws.

And when you think about the future of the auto industry for the next two or three years, does it survive without tariffs? Like I said, I think tariffs are a tool in the toolbox. I think they're their initial motivator. But ultimately, we have to fix the broken trade laws in this country and any trade laws we have, let's be clear about this.

It has to have a social policy and it's got to have a decent standard of living. It's got to have adequate health care for everyone. It's got to have retirement security for people when they're too old to work and too young to die. And it's got to have some quality of life initiatives into it where people don't have to work around the clock and their life has to revolve around around work. So, you know, there's a lot of things we have to fix to make it work.

I WANT TO MAKE THIS CLEAR. MEXICAN WORKERS, THEY ARE NOT THE ENEMY. THEY HAVE BEEN EXPLOITED FOR DECADES. ANOTHER PROMISE OF NAFTA WAS IT WAS GOING TO RAISE THE STANDARD FOR EVERYBODY. THE REALIZATION OF THAT IS THE WAGES IN AMERICA AND THE WAGES IN MEXICO WERE CUT IN HALF.

over the last 30 years as a result of NAFTA. So it's driving a race to the bottom, and that's not going to work for anybody. Sean, your membership makes you powerful, so you associate with presidents. From your perspective, what's more valuable to your membership, a president who walks a picket line or imposes tariffs?

I mean, it's both. I mean, ultimately, it's a president that supports organized labor and supports good working conditions and good safe jobs and good union contracts. And so that's the big concern right now. I mean, you know, while we applaud the shift with tariffs here under this administration,

Again, it's deplorable what happened last night with the stroke of a marker. Stripping away bargaining, stripping away contractual rights for hundreds of thousands of union workers, attacking the free speech of union workers. And we can't stand for that. So like I said, I mean, we take this issue by issue. How about changes at the National Labor Relations Board, which would have to be there to safeguard the kind of things you want protected?

Yes, no, everything, like I said, I mean, that's like, I've been very clear about this. Look, as I said, when we find something we agree with someone on that we can work with them on, we're going to work with them. But again, the list is very long of things we don't agree on. I mean, all these attacks on the Department of Labor,

Department of Education, you know, the NLRB, you know, naturally with, you know, the cuts with the federal workers, the cuts with our higher ed workers, the attacks on our higher education workers on these college campuses, on their free speech, you know, again, on the National Institute of Health workers. Those things are unacceptable. And yes, look, we're organizing right now, and these companies hire union busters. They break the law every day. Volkswagen's breaking the law as we speak.

There's got to be mechanisms in place to hold them accountable. And when you weaken all those things or you eliminate those things, obviously that's not going to be good. Sean, last question. Our recent polling shows a 5% shift, 5% more Americans than in February fear a coming recession within the next year. Does your membership? I mean, I think a lot of people are cautious right now. I mean, obviously there's a lot of uncertainty with what's going on. I mean, you know, when you...

are stripping bargaining rights and you're threatening to fire workers all over the country and fire federal workers, things like that. I mean, obviously there's a lot of concern. Sean Fain, United Auto Workers president. Thank you very, very much. Thank you for having us.