Steve Witkoff, Gov. Kathy Hochul, Sen. Chris Van Hollen, Scott Gottlieb
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Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or DSW.com. I'm Margaret Brennan in Washington, and this week on Face the Nation, the president's mission to shrink the federal workforce intensifies, and his foreign policy dealmaking reaches a critical juncture. Speaking before a crowd of conservative supporters this weekend, President Trump touted his dramatic efforts to reshape the federal government. It's all about common sense.

Over the past month, we've confirmed an all-star team of warriors, patriots, visionaries, and put the America First agenda into action. Late Friday, the purge of the federal workforce struck the Pentagon at the top during a critical moment for our national security. As the new administration seeks peace talks to end Russia's war in Ukraine, and as a fragile truce between Israel and Hamas hangs in the balance. We'll speak with Trump's top negotiator and envoy, Steve Witkoff.

Meanwhile, here at home, the president takes aim at Democratic governors who oppose his agenda. You better do it because you're not going to get any federal funding. New York hasn't labored under a king in over 250 years. We are not.

We'll ask New York Governor Kathy Hochul how she's picking her battles with the new administration. Plus... The people would like to know what you, Congressman, and your fellow congressmen are going to do to rein in the megalomaniac in the White House. Lawmakers facing some heat from voters over Trump's push to slash the federal workforce, led by Elon Musk.

Maryland Democrat Chris Van Hollen and Utah Republican John Curtis will be here. And finally, with bird flu, measles, and other illnesses on the rise, and big changes ahead for America's public health agencies, we'll get a reality check from former Trump FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb. It's all just ahead on Face the Nation. ♪♪

Good morning and welcome to Face the Nation. Millions of federal workers are waking up to renewed pressure this morning. Elon Musk ordered them late Saturday to describe the top five things they accomplished last week or risk losing their jobs.

That demand was issued formally in an email yesterday from the Office of Personnel Management. But top leaders and agencies such as the FBI and the State Department have instructed their staff to avoid responding for now. Just a day earlier, the Trump staff shakeup hit the Pentagon with the ouster of the nation's highest ranking military officer, General C.Q. Brown, and other senior leaders at the Navy, Army and Air Force.

For more on that impact of the shakeup, we begin this morning with our senior national security correspondent, Charlie Dagada. Charlie, so it's the president's prerogative to choose his advisers, sure. But what's the impact of firing his top adviser and when will we get a new one?

Well, Margaret, you first of all have to look at what's going on at the moment, right? What's the immediate impact? This position as a chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is in charge, as it sounds, of everybody and planning forward. We have the crisis in the Middle East that's still unfolding. We've got the crisis at the border where more and more active duty troops are being sent to. Guantanamo is getting built up.

And then you've got Ukraine and the future of NATO. So this comes at a critical time in the dismissal of C.Q. Brown will have immediate ramifications in terms of how long it's going to take to replace that. Well, there will be a sort of Senate hearing. A person has already been put forward as we're about to speak about. But in addition to that.

The other top head to come out of that was Admiral Lisa Franchetti, so CNO, Chief Naval Officer in charge of the Navy. That's a big one. The highest ranking woman. The highest ranking woman and unprecedented in that role. And she was the first to become a fleet commander. There are many firsts in Admiral Franchetti's career. And we've profiled her when she became a fleet commander. Very highly thought of among her colleagues.

Among personnel at the DOD, including young women who aspire to those sort of levels, C.Q. Brown, again, very, very, very highly regarded. There was no reason given for the dismissal of these two individuals. We do know that Secretary Hegseth has actually name checked C.Q. Brown as saying that he's

criticizing him for his DEI programs and saying that was he given that promotion because he was black? He says, we'll never know. He also took aim at Admiral Frank Keddie, suggesting she is a DEI hire herself by virtue of the fact that she is a woman. Also, in addition to that, there's a second in command of the Air Force who was also removed. So a lot of changes. And you mentioned the word purge. And that's exactly what it is from the very top.

Well, who is this nominee, or I guess in the process of becoming the nominee, to step into the role? It's a good question. And there are a lot of people inside the DoD who are asking who this nominee is. Retired Lieutenant General Dan Cain. He just retired recently. He's a three-star rank.

That's kind of important because this is the first time, at least in my knowledge, it might be corrected, the first time a three-star general was promoted to that position. Not ahead of a combatant command. Exactly, not ahead of a combatant command like CENTCOM or UCOM, not in charge of one of the armed services branches. Well, yes, some might call it a leapfrog. If he is to be promoted.

accepted into this role, he will automatically be given that fourth star. But more importantly, there are certain rules and regulations that he would have been the first because he didn't have that combatant command and because he wasn't in charge of one of the armed forces. But from, you know, we've been asking around and I know people who know him personally, they say, look, he's a stand up guy, nicest man you want to meet.

There had been some questions about whether or not he was sort of political. I know that President Trump had said that he had met the guy and said that he loves him, as in he loves Trump. According to my sources, that conversation didn't take place. He doesn't own a MAGA cap. He didn't put one on. So he's been described as apolitical.

And he's somebody who may not have the experience, but has the character to lead the force. But I think what we have to look at here, right, we get Defense Secretary Hegseth and then we have this individual, two relatively inexperienced people at the very highest level of the DOD. At a time of global instability and a lot of change here at home. Charlie, thank you. Thank you. We turn now to Trump's clash with Democratic governors. Joining us now from Albany, New York, is the governor, Kathy Hochul. Good morning to you, Governor.

Good morning. I know you were just here in Washington, and you met privately with President Trump. In the past, you've said the relationship doesn't have to be adversarial. Was your meeting with him adversarial? And what was your top message? It wasn't an adversarial meeting, but I was very clear, especially after I found that the Trump administration had ended a program that was putting

put in place, congestion pricing by the duly elected members of our legislature representing the voice of the people and with a tweet he claims that he is the king and therefore he has the power to destroy it. And I have a problem with that characterization because we labored under a king 250 years ago and as I said we're not going back there. So I wanted to take my case to him directly and let him see the benefits

of this program because our city is paralyzed with gridlock and we had a path forward to be able to make the city move again and it's working. I wanted to just have that opportunity to convey that but I don't know that we're very persuasive on that front but that's okay.

The people of my state need to know I'm willing to take the fight wherever I have to. So just to explain for our audience, congestion pricing, you're talking about this $9 toll you put on people driving into lower Manhattan below 60th Street. Your fellow Democrat, Phil Murphy of New Jersey, says he doesn't like this policy. He actually asked President Trump to stop it. President Trump's office says this is discriminatory against working class people. How do you respond to that?

I respond this way with all due respect to the state of New Jersey. They do not tell us in New York what to do, nor does Washington when it comes to policies that we believe are going to reduce congestion, move along vehicles, emergency vehicles are moving faster,

air quality is improving. So I have arguments that are important, but no one else should be able to second-guess us, because that's not how our system of laws and states was set up. I'm the governor of New York. I will deal with the internal issues before me without interference from New Jersey or, indeed, the federal government. So this is going to the courts? Oh, yes, it's going to the courts. And I believe we'll be victorious in the courts, and this program will continue.

You know, this is not the only standoff between the state and federal government and the tension here. I know you were in Washington with other governors who were meeting with the president this week. Federal funds account for about 40 percent of your state's budget. President Trump is threatening to withhold federal funds to governors in order to force compliance with his agenda. Here's what he said to the governor of Maine. Take a listen.

Is the Maine here, the governor of Maine? Are you not going to comply with it? Well, we are the federal law. Well, you better do it. You better do it because you're not going to get any federal funding at all if you don't. That was about transgender athletes on girls sports teams. Are you Democratic governors going to start to work together on this? Is there legal pushback?

What he is doing is, they've described it as flooding the zone. They're attacking California when it comes to FEMA dollars. They're filing lawsuits in Illinois. They're going after Maine on this, and they're coming after programs that have been duly put in place in the state of New York. What they're trying to do is create this theater of all kinds of activity that is trying to be a distraction to us. And when someone floods the zone in a football game, what you need to have is the defenders be very disciplined, smart,

but also stand their ground. And that's exactly what New York governors, the governor of New York will do in cooperation with our governors. We're not gonna sit idly by and let our rights be attacked. We'll work with you when there's common ground, no doubt about it. Let's build great projects and infrastructure. There's areas where we're gonna work with you on immigration and getting the violent criminals off our streets. We do not dispute that. But don't think that you can just come in and bully us around and not expect a reaction from governors.

You know that when it comes to your state, there's been a lot of focus on Manhattan and the Department of Justice because of Eric Adams and the ongoing legal issues he has. In the past week, four deputy mayors resigned, seven federal prosecutors resigned after the Trump Justice Department moved to dismiss those five counts of federal corruption indictments against a

against Mayor Adams. You know the allegation is that the dismissal of the charges was related to a quid pro quo around immigration compliance. Did you discuss this case at all with the president when you were in the room with him one-on-one?

No, I did not. In fact, it's -- we're waiting for the decision by a judge on whether he's going to accept those -- the recommendation for a dismissal. So that's still in litigation. But I will say this.

We are not allowing the Trump administration to interfere in the operations of our city. And the legal problems that the mayor is facing because of the Trump administration and the phrasing they have used, and indeed an interview that was done by one of his representatives on national television saying that he's basically got the mayor

the mayor under his control, that's concerning. And I have to be able to put in safeguards. First, everyone says I had the option to remove him. I still hold that option to remove him. It is an extraordinary power. And I know there's a lot of people disappointed and angry and want something done immediately. But I will always stand on the fact that we are a nation of laws and one individual

The governor of New York should not use her voice and her will to override the will of the voters. We have an election in a few months in a primary. I'm going to let the voters decide, but I'm also going to be very cognizant. I need to keep an eye on this situation, especially the way the Trump administration has telegraphed that they want to get into our operations. And I have to be the firewall to stop that. So, having said that, does that mean you do believe there was a quid pro quo understanding with Eric Adams?

I am going by what the perception could be. I cannot let the integrity of the administration in the city of New York be undermined by perception that the Trump administration actually created. They created this perception. The reality, I will never know.

But as long as there's the faith of New Yorkers that has been undermined by what the Trump administration is doing, is trying to give the appearance of holding the city hostage, those are what—that's exactly what they're trying to do. Again, they're trying to create chaos. But we have to be smart as Democrats and as leaders and parse through all this and just go do what's right. That'll always be my North Star. Governor Hochul, thank you for your time this morning. Face the Nation will be back in one minute. Stay with us. Yeah, sure thing.

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Joining us now is President Trump's Special Envoy Steve Witkoff. He is in Miami Beach this morning. Good morning to you, sir. Good morning, Margaret. Thanks for having me. I have a lot to get to with you. I want to start on the Mideast first. You have said you are headed there this week to work on a hostage deal. I know Prime Minister Netanyahu has changed his negotiating team

Will we get to phase two of this hostage deal? And can we get that American citizen, Don Alexander, out anytime soon? So we will get to stage two or phase two. And I'm very focused on that. And I think it's going to happen.

I'm going there probably Wednesday evening. I'll spend five days there as soon as I arrive, going to various countries, including Qatar, Egypt, Israel, UAE and Saudi Arabia. And as to Idan Alexander, he's front and center for us. I know his parents. We talk all the time. He's critical. It's

One of President Trump's most important objectives is to get all Americans home, and we're going to be successful in getting Edan home, I believe. So in that second phase, talking about what comes next for Gaza becomes part of that. For that day after, do Hamas leaders need to leave Gaza? Are you discussing that? And if so, where would they go?

So, Margaret, the May 27th protocol agreement signed last May 27th sets forth that the phase two negotiation is much about two things: A, a permanent ceasefire, a cessation of all violence, and in addition to that, the fact that Hamas cannot be allowed to come back into the government. And I think the way you square that circle

is that Hamas has to go. They've got to leave. And we're going to, the negotiation will be around that. I would say physically, that's correct. Where would they go? Has any country offered to take them in? Well, I think the devil is in the details, and we've had a lot of discussions around it. I'm not at liberty to have that specific discussion today, but we've got some ideas, and that will be part of the negotiation.

You've been quoted as saying that when you went to Gaza and you personally saw the devastation there, you couldn't understand why anyone would stay, but it doesn't mean you can't have some sort of right to return if that's the policy that works for people. Does the Trump administration support Palestinians' right to return?

Well, Margaret, first of all, what I would say is this. President Trump is one of the most sensible human beings you're ever going to meet. He understands that it makes no sense to endorse old policy prescriptions that have not worked. And what has not worked in Gaza are all of these old policy prescriptions. So he's come up with a new notion. And the new notion is

Let's create a better opportunity for people who have lived in Gaza to have a better life for themselves, better upside, better aspirations for what can happen for their children and so forth.

The May 27th protocol talked about Gaza as if it was a five-year reconstruction plan. We've been talking in the Trump administration about a 15-year horizon, perhaps even 20 years. And now all of a sudden, The Wall Street Journal printed an article yesterday agreeing with that math.

There is a much lower level setting. The facts suggest that nobody can really live there in a safe environment for probably at least 15 years.

So, effectively, we need -- effectively, people have been under this misassumption. When you're under a misassumption about facts, you're not going to make decisions correctly. We're making decisions based on a real set of facts. And so there's a lot of work that has to be done there. There's tons of demolition. There's artillery shells all over the place that could explode at any moment. This is a much longer project, and people don't belong living there right now.

but they could return. That's, again, goes to the devil in the details. I'm not sure that anyone has a problem with people returning. We've had these discussions around that. I just think the fundamental issue today is...

how we get phase two done and then develop a reconstruction plan for Gaza. And for that, you've got to have a real set of facts. And we've been operating prior to the Trump administration coming in under facts that are just not accurate.

I want to also ask you about Russia. You are a very trusted advisor to President Trump, and he sent you to speak face-to-face with Vladimir Putin. Fox reported you sat with Putin for three and a half hours.

You said that you spent a lot of time talking, developing a friendship and a relationship with Putin, and that's how you helped bring this U.S. citizen, Mark Fogel, home. Can you take us inside that room? Did you have a translator? Did you have a note-taker? Were you talking in English? What happened?

There was a translator. In fact, there were two translators. And to me, the assignment was trust building and speaking on behalf of my boss, the president of the United States, Donald J. Trump. And I had no expectation as to how long the meeting was going to last.

I was intent on carrying a message from the president to President Putin. I had been advised that President Putin had something for me to transmit back to the president. And the meeting ended, I looked at my watch, and it was close to three and a half hours that we were in there. And hopefully that suggests that a lot of good things got accomplished. I think that President Trump

believes, and I believe because he believes it, that trust building begins with good, proper communication. And we had really good -- we just had a great discussion, me and President Putin. And now it will be up to President Putin and President Trump to work something out. And I think they're going to be successful. Did you have an intelligence officer or anyone else with you? That's an extraordinary amount of FaceTime with Putin.

I had, it was just me. It was just you. The head of Russia's sovereign wealth fund, I know you know him, Kirill Dmitriev, told Reuters that afterward they expect a number of American companies to return to Russia this year. Is he right to expect that? Did you discuss lifting U.S. sanctions off of Russia?

We did not have that specific discussion at the meeting you're referring to. But I think that obviously there would be an expectation that if we get to a peace deal, that you would be able to have American companies come back and do business there. And I think that everybody would believe that that would be a positive, good thing to happen. After the end to the war and concessions were made by Russia.

Well, that's what everybody wants. What everybody wants, the beginning of that, Margaret, would be a temporary ceasefire. But the long-term goal would be an end to this. We've had close to a million and a half deaths. And so, you know, President Trump, his...

His agenda is to end this carnage. It just didn't belong to, it didn't need to happen and it doesn't need to continue not, you know, another day. So we're on it at his direction. And I think there is, you're going to see some, some real positive developments in the near term future. Special Envoy Steve Witkoff, thank you for joining us.

Welcome back to Face the Nation. We return to our conversation with Utah Republican Senator John Curtis. Good to see you here in person. It's nice to be in person. Good morning and lots to talk about today. Absolutely. I want to get your perspective on the decision by the president on Friday to dismiss not only the chair of the Joint Chiefs, but also five other senior senators.

military officers. The former chair of the Joint Chiefs, General Martin Dempsey, released a statement saying, "Trust should be based on leadership, integrity, and performance. To relieve a senior officer, not for a lack of one of those qualities, but for a real or perceived disagreement in their beliefs, harmfully politicizes the military profession."

Are you concerned that's what's happening here? You know, I think we have to stop and look what happened really last November. And one of my colleagues described it this way. It was a "stop the car" moment.

Those of us who have had young kids and have been on family vacations know what a stop the car moment is. It's kids, you're so disruptive, we're stopping the car. And I think in many ways, the American people said, stop the car. We want dramatic change. We're unhappy with what's happening at the border. We're unhappy with the economy. We're unhappy with so many things. You keep promising that you're going to cut spending and you don't.

Stop the car. And so people really shouldn't be surprised that this is a stop the car moment. We don't get to go to Disneyland until we figure this out. And I think that's what people are seeing right now in Washington. But you think part of the public frustration or that there was correct to be frustration with the leadership at the Pentagon or the president's top military advisor? Look, we elected a commander in chief last November. This is his discretion. They want change. The people want change.

We all knew what we were getting with President Trump, right? Nobody should be really surprised at these dramatic shocks to the system. The system needs a shock. And I think what you're seeing as a result of that.

There is concern, though, at a time of geopolitical risk, as our Pentagon correspondent was suggesting there, that carrying the institutional knowledge with you through a transition-- we're still at the beginning of the Trump administration, certainly-- that there could be a hiccup there or some complication.

I mean, General Kane is, or Lieutenant General Kane is a three-star. He's retired. It's not clear if he needs a congressional waiver or not to take this job because he didn't run a combatant command. Do you know how complicated it will be to get him in place or how long? Yeah, I don't, and I'm not overly worried about that. I'll come back to this American people issue.

have asked for change. They've lost confidence in so many things. They want to see dramatic change. That was a stop the car moment. And what happened at the Pentagon was a stop the car moment. Let's make some change. We've tried subtle changes. We've tried the easy changes. We've tried working around the edges. And I think the American people are saying, it didn't work. Let's do something more dramatic.

Well, we've certainly seen dramatic. You had the video at the Conservative Political Action Committee of Elon Musk wielding this shiny chainsaw. It's celebrating this Department of Government efficiency idea. Yesterday, federal employees also received an email, I'm sure you've heard, telling them to reply by midnight Monday to a message with five bullet points of what they accomplished in the last week.

Elon Musk tweeted, "Failure to do so would result in firing." Utah has 33,000 federal employees. Is that how they should be treated? So listen, let's go back to $36,000 trillion of debt. And we have to do something dramatic. Now, to answer your question, I don't believe so. You know, I just published an op-ed, DeseretNews.com, Deseret.com, and I talk about my experience as mayor and having to do similar things.

If I could say one thing to Elon Musk, it's like, please put a dose of compassion in this. These are real people. These are real lives. These are mortgages. It's a false narrative to say we have to cut and you have to be cruel to do it as well. We can do both. Well, it's not just about efficiency, though. I mean, the president himself has characterized this as getting rid of bad people.

You know, I regret that narrative. We all know, you know, thousands, millions of federal workers who are good people, who work hard. But the reality of it is we have three million federal workers. Not all of them do. Many aren't coming to work. In my business. Working from home, you mean.

working from home, let's hope they're working from home, we don't know. That's why the email, what are you doing? It's not unusual in a corporate setting to have people report and explain what they're doing, especially if they're working from home. So I don't think this is a request, it is that difficult. I would ask my employees to let me know what they're doing.

But I will double down on the fact of we don't need to be so cold and hard. And let's put a little compassion and quite frankly, dignity in this as well. - Right, and in that op-ed you said sometimes it is the worst day of someone's life. - It is. - To receive a notice like this. - Yeah, going back to my experience as mayor, we did have to let some people go. We did a lot through attrition, but every single person we let go,

I met with personally. I looked him in the eye. I told them why we had to do it. How can we then help you transition to the next thing? We can do both things. Well, that's not happening at all right now, as you know. And at these department agencies, some of them

They're just getting locked out of systems. People don't even know who to ask. They can't ask HR. And HR says, I don't know if they can't get hold of them at all. But I'll also come back to this stop the car moment. Like, this is not a normal moment. We have tried. We've tried for years to do this gracefully. We've tried for years to do this slowly. And we have failed consistently. And the American people said, enough. We're tired of this. You have to make these changes.

So do you believe the president has the unilateral authority to cancel funds appropriated by Congress? Well, what we're seeing play out is this wrestle between the three branches of government. We'll find out. And this is the beauty of the system. You don't have a point of view? Well, listen, I believe in the Constitution, right? I believe this is how we test the Constitution. And people have said, oh, this is a constitutional crisis. And I say exactly the opposite. It's proving to work. We have the courts playing it. We have Congress who will play it.

We have the ability. I think we hold a lot of responsibility for what's happening right now. We could solve the budget as Congress. We could solve the border and we haven't. And both parties, when Congress doesn't do their job in the White House, have a tendency to try to solve it. Let's let this play out by the Constitution and and then Congress, let's step up.

Right? We need to do it. I'll be the first to say this is a problem that Congress has, in many cases, given the American people. The pushback has been relatively quiet. You're gently doing that by saying be more compassionate. Senator Murkowski was telling constituents the other day, I can't be the only one speaking out.

So are Republican lawmakers going to be more forceful? Well, I don't know what you want me to be more forceful on. Stop the car. Like, fix this. That's what Utahns are telling me. In terms of the congressional role here, the check that Congress is supposed to put on the executive. But I also think that's a stop the car moment. Congress has failed in these things. And the people have said, fix it. So Donald Trump is trying to fix it with the tools that he has.

The courts will push back if he steps out of line. We've seen that. We know that. We saw that with President Biden as well. And that's the beauty of the system. It works. Now, it's very, it's the people back home are impatient. If you were to walk on the streets in Utah, they would say, stop the car, John. Like, this is not good. You have promised, your colleagues have promised for decades that you would fix these things and you haven't. Mm-hmm.

Well, we'll see if the fiscal problems are fixed in the near-term, Senator. It's going to be up to you and your fellow lawmakers. We'll be right back. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. Stop struggling to get your job posts seen on other job sites. Indeed's sponsored jobs help you stand out and hire fast. With sponsored jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster.

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We're joined now by Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen. Good to have you here. I want to refer back to the interview we just did with the president's special envoy, Steve Witkoff. You watch the Middle East closely. I know you were just meeting with Arab leaders when you were in Europe last week. He said that it is not realistic to have Palestinians remain in Gaza while it is rebuilt. Egypt and Jordan are working on plans for that to be possible.

does that proposal have any chance of surviving or is this idea of moving them away for 15 years going to happen? So the good news in what Steve Witkoff said was that he expected us to get to phase two of the discussions. The very bad news was he did not disavow this outrageous idea that Donald Trump put on the table.

of cleaning out two million Gazans. That is ethnic cleansing by another name. And Arab countries are right now working very hard to put together a plan to show that you can deal with governance, security and reconstruction, and that you don't need to have two million people pushed out of Gaza in order to do it. It is tough. It will have to be done in stages. And they have identified areas in Gaza

few areas in Gaza that have not been obliterated where you could begin to phase the reconstruction and at least get people temporary housing as you rebuild in other areas. But how does that survive if the United States' most powerful player is saying, "That's not what we want to do"? Well, this is a big problem because when Trump made those statements, what he did was fueled even more.

the far, far right in Israel, the Ben-Gavirs, the Smotriches, who are just celebrating because their idea all along has been to move two million Palestinians out of Gaza. They also want to move Palestinians out of the West Bank into places like Jordan and Egypt. So in addition to being a reprehensible idea for moral and legal reasons, it would also totally destabilize the region, which is why the Arab countries are working so furiously

to put together a plan that addresses these issues and has a future horizon that provides security to both Israelis and Palestinians and self-determination for both Israelis and Palestinians.

We are also hearing that the president is closing in on this deal with Ukraine in regard to its mineral resources that can be used for all sorts of valuable technology. What security guarantees are you comfortable with the U.S. giving to Ukraine as part of any of this?

Well, I think this is all negotiable. But what you should not do, Margaret, is begin your negotiation with Putin by, number one, adopting the Putin narrative, saying that Ukraine started this war, which is just a big lie. And you shouldn't begin by giving up certain key cards. So, for example, American guarantees or a future for Ukraine in NATO.

However you settle this in the end is a matter of negotiation, but it's terrible negotiating to give up those cards right up front as Trump has done. It was extraordinary to hear Steve Witkoff describe his meeting with Vladimir Putin as he did for us. I would just say that this is not America first. This is America in retreat.

And China and Russia and our adversaries are celebrating every moment of this as our allies are scared to death. And this is not just rhetoric. This is reality. This is what you heard at Munich last week? Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, European allies and others from around the world who believe in freedom and democracy, they're wondering whether this is just rhetoric or whether this is a real shift.

My warning to them is I think this is reality. I think Trump is much closer ideologically to Putin and other autocrats around the world than he is to democratic countries. An extraordinary statement to digest, but I want to ask you about what's happening here at home because you sit on some powerful committees.

The administration did have some legal wins this past week. USAID, a federal judge, said that they can put on administrative leave thousands of USAID employees. Another district court denied a request from unions to stop the firing of federal employees. Are Democrats too knee-jerk to say that all this is unlawful?

No, this is unlawful. In many of these cases, judges found that the plaintiffs did not have standing, but other parts of their opinion clearly indicated that Elon Musk did not have the authority to do what he's doing. So we just talked about the great betrayal of the Ukrainian people. What we're witnessing now is the great betrayal of the American people.

Canada, Trump said he was going to lower prices. Right now what he's doing is slashing important public services that help every American in order to finance a tax cut for the super rich, for Elon Musk and the billionaires. So there was this email that went out yesterday to federal employees. We know that at the FBI and the State Department, management inside those agencies have told employees don't respond to the personnel email saying respond with your five bullet points.

Can people working at the State Department feel safe not responding? Are they putting their jobs at risk? - I don't think so, because what we are witnessing are illegal actions by Elon Musk. And a number of courts, as you know, have issued temporary restraining orders on their efforts to seize important private information, but also on their overall conduct. So what the head of management of the State Department said is,

Elon Musk doesn't have the authority to require State Department employees to answer these questions. That has to happen in the chain of command. Even though the president says he wants them to be more aggressive. So the reality is, we don't know what the president meant, but as you pointed out, you've got Elon Musk taking a chainsaw

to the federal government and important services. And there's no Article 4 in the Constitution that gives Elon Musk that authority. And the way that he's been sort of, quote, delegated this authority is illegal. And the actions he's taking are illegal. And we need to shut down this illegal operation. Senator Van Hollen, thank you for your insight today. Thank you. We'll be back in a moment.

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We turn now to Dr. Scott Gottlieb. He's a former FDA commissioner and current Pfizer board member. Welcome back, Dr. Gottlieb. Thanks a lot. We've seen these troubling measles outbreaks in Texas and New Mexico. Nearly 100 people sickened.

It looks like most of those who have been infected were unvaccinated, and the outbreak area has one of the highest vaccination exemption rates in the state. How concerned are you, though, that this could spread? Very concerned. I think this will spread. There's been 100 cases that have been identified so far. There's probably many more than that. So I think that this is going to get into the hundreds of cases and could take many months to try to fully snuff out.

And when you have that kind of a concentration of measles within a community, it's going to inevitably spread outside that community. When you look around the country, there's a lot of parts of the country, states that have relatively low vaccination rates when it comes to MMR right now. You look at Idaho, about 80 percent of children have been vaccinated for MMR. Alaska and Wisconsin are about at 84 percent. Minnesota, 87 percent. States like Florida, Colorado, Oklahoma, Georgia, Utah are around 88 percent.

Iowa, I think, is at 89 percent. And herd immunity is achieved at a vaccination rate of between 93 and 95 percent. And even within those states, it's not like the low vaccination rates are distributed evenly across the states. There's pockets of under-vaccination in those communities that have

relatively low vaccination rates. And so when you have this much virus spreading in that portion of Texas and New Mexico, I think that there's some inevitability that you're going to see cases exported into those other states where there's low vaccination rates and you could see a continuous spread across the country. Even at a low level, we could get some endemic spread. And the risk to the United States right now

is that a virus that has been largely extinguished from circulation in the U.S. could return and just continue to spread even at a low level. And the U.S. could be at risk of losing its measles elimination status, which would have more profound implications on things like travel advisories that could be initiated from other countries. And so beyond just the public health impact of this, which I think is quite substantial, there could be some economic impacts as well.

And finally, when you look at that outbreak in Texas, 27 percent of people have been hospitalized. And there's been four cases where children have contracted measles that have been vaccinated. So those are probably kids who only had one dose of the vaccine. But there's a lot of people who are at risk of this beyond just the people who have chosen to forego the vaccine. That's terrifying, doctor. And kids are usually vaccinated, as any parent knows, around one year old.

Roughly the MMR vaccine, though this is the vaccine against measles, is particularly scrutinized. Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who is now the HHS secretary, has accused of causing issues in children. He wrote the foreword to a book questioning vaccines, saying measles is a disease that is rarely life threatening and a vaccine that is largely unnecessary but carries real risks.

He is now the HHS secretary. How does he restore confidence in a vaccine that he previously denigrated?

Well, look, I think it's going to be difficult. And as best I can tell, he hasn't spoken to this outbreak. I think you captured the essence of the argument from Mr. Kennedy, as well as people within his anti-vax movement, that they believe this vaccine isn't effective. That's not true. It's highly effective. And that measles itself isn't a bad illness. And I think there's been some statements that actually getting measles has certain long-term advantages, which is just patently false. This is a very dangerous virus.

And as I said, about 27 percent of the kids who've been infected in that West Texas outbreak and the New Mexico outbreak have been hospitalized. So this could be a quite serious

illness with long-term consequences. Herd immunity is achieved at 93 to 95 percent. We're well below that in most parts of the country. Texas actually has a high vaccination rate, and I think Texas local public health officials are doing a good job to try to get control of this outbreak. But now that it's stretched into the hundreds of cases, it's going to be very difficult. This has been a vaccine that's been studied extensively. The alleged links between

MMR vaccine and autism have been the subject of some of the most, the largest studies ever undertaken. There were two studies done in Denmark, each with about 500

thousand children involved in those studies. There were also a number of studies that were commissioned by the CDC and the NIH also looking at this in the United States. And so this is one of the most extensively studied questions, the purported link between MMR and autism. And I think the reality is sometimes we have to accept no for an answer, that there just is no link between the MMR vaccine and autism. Yeah. And those studies were brought up by Dr. Cassidy, Senator Cassidy in the hearing. And

Mr. Kennedy would not affirm them. Senator Cassidy still voted for him, though. But I want to ask you about another issue. Our correspondent Camilo Montoya-Galvez has learned the Trump administration is preparing plans to use a health authority known as Title 42, which you remember was used during the pandemic,

to restrict migrant agents' entries across the southern border. Now they want to invoke it on the basis of other diseases like TB. Is that warranted right now? Is TB that much of a problem?

Well, look, I think from a policy standpoint, the administration has done a good job shutting down flows across the border. So I'm not sure why they're reaching for a public health measure to try to provide an additional provision, additional tool. They seem to have done a good job with the law enforcement that they're doing at the border. Just from the objective standpoint of TB and the risk of TB being transported across the border,

TB incidence rates are high in the countries where immigrants are coming from, but they're not exceedingly high relative to other countries. So you look at a country like Mexico, the incidence of TB is about 30 cases per 100,000 people. In Venezuela, where there's also immigrants coming from, it's about 45.

per 100,000. That compares to about 10 per 100,000 in a country like England. But you look at a country like India, the incidence is about 200 per 100,000. In South Africa, it's about 500 per 100,000. So there's a lot of countries around the world where people come in from all the time where the incidence of TB is much higher than what

what it is in the countries where people are coming across the border from. Now, you can argue that people coming in the country from South Africa or India are going through regular checkpoints where they might undergo some screening. But I think just purely from an objective public health standpoint, there's probably parts of the world where we have immigrants coming in that provide a larger risk of the transmission of TB than across the border.

Can you give us some perspective on the thousands of employees who are being dismissed from federal health agencies? Should the public be concerned? Look, I don't think they should be concerned. I think that there have been steps taken to try to re-adjudicate some of those initial dismissals, at least within the public health context. When you look across HHS, and I'm most familiar with FDA, where they're hiring back a number of employees, and I think they could hire back fully half of the employees

that were initially dismissed at the FDA. And they've tried to preserve things like review functions and inspectors at FDA. They didn't do it perfectly because of the way they went about this. They riffed the probationary employees. So they did catch some employees I think are in critical functions. They seem to be hiring them back. You know, just objectively, they look at this and they say, well, the number of people hired has gone up a lot in recent years and they want to reduce headcount. And so I think they need to be more judicious about who they target. Dr. Gottlieb, I'm sorry, I got to leave it right there. We'll be right back.

Thank you for watching. Until next week, for Face the Nation, I'm Margaret Brennan. Today's guests were New York Democratic Governor Kathy Hochul, United States Special Envoy to the Middle East Steve Whitcomb, Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen, Utah Republican Senator John Curtis, and former FDA Commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb. The senior executive producer of Face the Nation is Mary Hager, and the executive producer is Ann Hsu. This broadcast was directed by Shelley Schwartz.

Face the Nation originates from CBS News in Washington. For more, we're online at facethenation.com and on YouTube. We're also rebroadcast on our CBS News 24-7 streaming network at 1230 on Sundays, and we're available through our apps, CBS News and Paramount Plus.