#393 – Andrew Huberman: Relationships, Drama, Betrayal, Sex, and Love
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The following is a conversation with my dear friend Andrew, he woman, his fourth time in this podcast is my birthday. So this is a special birthday episode of sorts. Andrew flew down to Austin, just wish me a happy birthday.

And we decided to do a podcast last second. We literally talk for hours before hand in a long time after late into the night. He's one of my favorite human beings, brilliant scientists, incredible teacher and a loyal friend.

I'm grateful for Andrew. I'm grateful for good friends for all the support and love i've garden over the past few years. I'm truly grateful for this life, for the years, the days, the minutes, the seconds.

I've gone to live on this beautiful earth of hours. I really don't want to leave just yet. I think i'd really like to stick around. I love you all. And now a with your second mention, responsable, check them out in the description is the best way to support broadcast.

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And now onto the full add reads. As always, no ads in the middle. I try to make this interesting, but if you must skip them, please still check out sponsors. I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will do the shows brought you by inside tracker, a service I used to track as data comes from mild body is really interesting to consider all the different signals that we send for our body consciousness conscious.

There's something I talked to, Andrew, this pocket about of all the thoughts and ideas and memories, real of fabricated or more, after modified or recycled, that looks somewhere in the unconscious that one brought to the surface, can now bring a kind of relief. Or we indivigal all the way we see the world around us. So, so many signals in those little neurons firing together to construct the experience of the reality we see around this. And that's not just the brain that is deeply rooted in all the different systems, including the immune system, the billions and billions and .

billions of .

organisms have for which ourselves, other half a bacteria, all working together to create this experience that we humans call life. He is so interesting that by collecting that data, by listening to the signal that this entire jack gani complex biological systems create, we can not start to try to figure out how to improve the functioning of IT.

At first, top down in a centralized manner, sort of listening to the music that the orchestra creates and trying to a maybe rewrite the music, or just the music, or edit the music is interesting. This whole journey we're on. And i'm glad there's people that turn that kind of journey to the company and try to help people buy, you know, making the data from their body accessible and giving advice based on that data, making that advice accessible so you can get special savings for limited time when you go to inside track or not.

Calm slash legs this episode is also brought to buy asleep in its new part three matches. IT is currently one hundred plus degrees, hundred, five hundred, six hundred, seven degrees in. And boy, does a cool bd surface feel good, even with their conditioning. Air conditioning is holding on for dear life.

And even then, the ability to have a cold, bad face, we going for power with a little bit of a blanket is just heaven, is a refuge from the fire that burns outside the castle, and never refuge for me, a biological one and a psychological one. It's kind of an incredible in terms of just energy, how much Better you can feel after a nap in a thousand, incredible psychologically in terms of the positivity, the joy you can rediscover after a good name. Everything you can do, you should put behind great sleep and great maps, because you can just do magical thinks.

Your mind books, like man, search for meaning, revealed that IT is indeed in the mind where the interpretation of the world's catastrophies lie. And so you have to quit your mind with the best tools in order to interpret those catastrophes, tragedies, those hardships correctly. Anyway, check that out and get special savings.

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But i'm home IT just the makes me feel like I have my life together, even when IT feels like IT is a crumbling on the size, or maybe a shaken at the core due to whatever things happen in life and make a such a dam interesting roll cost. Anyway, this is the one thing you can kind of control is, is an nutrition you put in your body and so you know to do the the the violence in the minerals and all that good stuff. Think there's like seventy five of them to get that all in your body every single day.

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I jacks list。

This is extremement podcast and now difference. Here's Andrew huberman.

Trying to run a little bit more. I lose weight. I'm not trying to lose weight, but I always do the same fitness routine after like thirty years, basically left three days a week, run three days a week, but one that runs is long run, one of them medium, one of them a sprint type thing.

So what i've decided to do this year was just extend the duration, the long run. And um I like being a mobile. I I never wanna be um so heavy that I can move like like I want to be able to go out and run ten miles if I have to, so sometimes I do.

And I want to be able to sprint if I have to, so sometimes I do. And um lifting in objects is feels good IT feels good to train like a lazy bear and just lift heavy objects. But i've also started training with lighter weights and higher repetitions and for three months cycles and IT gives your joint arrest.

And yes, so pro you know IT I think IT also is interesting and see how training differently changes your cognition. That's probably hormones related. Det hormones downstream of training heavy versus hormones is doing stream of training a little bit lighter.

Um I think my cognition is Better when i'm doing more cardio and when the repetition ranges are a little bit um higher. Not to say that people who lift heavy are dumb, but there is a, because there is a real value in lifting heavy. There's a lot of angry people listen to, no, no, no, but lifting heavy and then taking three to five minutes rest is far away a different chAllenge than running hard for ninety minutes.

That's a tough thing, just like getting in an ice bath. People, well, how is that any different than working out? Well, there are a lot of differences, but one of them is that it's very acute stress within one second year stress. So I I think subjecting the body to a bunch of the different types of stressors in space and time is really valuable. So he had been playing with the variables on a .

precedence tic way. Well, I like long and slow for, like you said, the impact that has on my cognition.

Yeah, for IT IT the word listener of IT um the way IT puts you in in the way that seems to clean out the clutter yeah you know IT can take away that hyper focus and put you more in a relaxed focus for sure well .

for me brings the clutter to the surface of first like all these thoughts come in there and they dissipate you not been because I got .

newbould pretty hard that's when somebody tries .

they yes so know and and need that direction and get new bar pretty so um in ways I don't understand IT kind of hurts to run I don't understand what's happening behind there. I need to investigate. This is basically this the hamstring flex like curling your leg hurts a little bit and that results in this weird doll.

But sometimes it's extremely sharp pain in the back of the knee. So work in the ligious, but walking doesn't hurt. I've been playing around with walking recently like for two hours and thinking because I know a lot of like smart people throughout history.

I have what and thought and you have to like you know play with things that have worked for others, not just to exercise but to like integrate this very light kind of prolonging exercise into a productive life. So they do all their thinking what they walk is like a medical of type of walking. It's really interesting that really works.

Yeah the um the practice i've been doing a lot more of lately as I walk while reading a book in the yard, i'll just pace back and forth or walking a circle a book no hard hard copy I hold in the book and i'm walking and reading. You should have a pen in a underlining.

I have this whole system like underlining stars explanation points goes back to university of what things that will go back to um which things I export to notes and that kind of thing um but from the beginning when I opened my lab at that time in cnd ago, before I moved back to stanford, I would have meetings with my students are post docked by just walking in the field behind the lab, you know and i'd bring my bulldog costolo ah bulldog massive at the time and he he was a slow Walker. So he was these were slow walks, but I can think much more clearly that way there is a nobile winning professor at columbia university school medicine. Richard to axel won the nobel prize, a co won noble prize with linder buck for discovery, the molecular basis of all of action.

And he walks in voice dictates his papers. And now with rever these other maybe there are Better ones than rev, where you can convert audio files into text very quickly and then edit from there so I I will often voice tick tate um for drafts and things like that and um I told agree on the long runs, the walks, the integrating that with coding work harder to do a and then the gym, you know are you you wait, train. You just seem naturally so and like thicker jointed it's true yeah true I I mean, we did the one very beginner because i'm a very beginner of you to class together.

Yeah, as I mentioned then, what of people missed that? lex? Is frequency strong?

I think I was born genetically .

to hug people like cost of exactly. You guys have a certain similarity. He had risks like that you and joko and costell how these like rice and I was that are super thick. And then you when you look around, you see tremendous variation.

You know some people have like the the um risk uh with of a whipped or woody island and the other people like you are joo, and you know there's this one jaco video or thing on G Q or something. Have you seen the comments on joo? These are the best um the comments I love the comments on youtube because occasionally and they're funny. Um the best is when shock was born, the doctor looked at his a parents and said.

it's a man on like chuck now have comments.

That's what I miss about rogan being on youtube with the following help.

So just another common so this is technically a birthday podcast. Would you love most about getting older?

It's like, is the confirmation that comes from getting more and more data that which basically says he had the first time you thought that thing IT was actually right because the second, third and fourth and five times IT turned out the exact same way. In other words, there have been a few times in my life where I did not feel easy about something that I felt signal for my body.

This is not good, and I didn't trust IT early on, but I knew I was there. And then two or three bad experiences later, able to say out every single time, there was a signal from the body informing my mind, this is not good. Now the reverse has also been true, that there have been a number of incenses in which I feel so IT immediate delight.

And there have almost astonishingly simple experience of feeling comfortable with somebody, or at peace with something, or delighted at an experience. And IT turns out, all, literally, all of those experiences and people turned out to be experiences in people that are still in my life, and that I still delighted in everyday. In other words, what's great about getting older is that you stop questioning the signals that come from the, I think, deeper recesses of your nervous system to say, hey, this is not good.

Or, hey, this is great. More of this. Whereas I think in my teens, my twins, my thirties, forty, almost forty eight or be forty eight next month, I I didn't trust, I didn't listen. I actually put a lot of work into overriding those signals, learning to fight through them, thinking that somehow that was making me tougher, or somehow that was making me smarter, when, in fact, in the end, those people that you meet that are not difficult to, or the other other named were know, in the end, like this piece of shit know, or this person is amazing and they're really wonderful. And I felt that from a go.

So you've learned to trust you got versus like the influences of other people's opinions.

I've learned to trust my gut versus the the forebrain over analysis overriding the gut. Other people, often in my life, have had great optics. I have benefit tremendously from an early age of being in a large community of what has been mostly guys by of some close female friends and always have as well who will tell me that that's a bad decision, or this person not so good, or be careful, or they're great, or that's great. So often times my community and the people around me have been more aligned with the correct choice. Then really yes.

really when you were Younger, like like grand's parents and so on, I don't recall ever really listening .

to my parents. I grew up in IT. You know we don't have to go actually my childhood thing, but my sense is, thank you.

I learned that recently in in a sulfide and journey, my first, my first hyde Sullivan journey, which was welcome back, done with the clinton. Thank you very much. Thank you.

I was worried there for a second at one point, might not coming back, but in in any event yeah I grew up with some wild kids I would say about a third of my friends from childhood or death in jail um about a third have gone on to do tremendously impressive thing start companies, excEllent athletes, academics, scientists and and clinicians and and then about a third of living their lives as become more typical. I just mean um that they are happy family people with jobs that they mainly um serve the function to make money there. That's a career into their career for a career sake. But so some of my friends early on give me some bad ideas, but most of the time my bad ideas came from um overriding the signals that I knew that my body in I would say my body and brain, we're telling me a to obey and I said body and brain is that there's this brain region in the insular, which does many things but IT represents our sense of internal sensation into reception. And I was talking to pointy about this as who as you know, I respect tremendously. I think he's one of the smartest people i've ever met I think for different reasons he in mark injury and are some of this like smartest wife ever met but apparent level of insight into the human psyche is absolutely stunning and and um he says the opposite of what most people say about the brain which is most people say, oh the supercomputer the brain is the four brain it's like a monkey brain with the extra real estate put on there and the four brain is what makes us human um and gives us our superpowers paul has said um and he's done a whole series on mental health that's coming out from our podcast in sep, so is not time .

to .

elaborate. Yeah so pauci shot of we did. He and I set down here to four episode series on mental health. There's not mental illness, mental health about how to explore once own subconscious, explore the self build and cultivate um the general drive.

You will learn more about what that is from him he's far more elegant and clear than I am um and he provides essentially a set of steps to explore yourself that does not require that you work with the therapy. This is self exploration that that is rooted in psychiatry, is rooted in neuroscience. And I don't think this information exists anywhere else. I'm not aware that anywhere else. And he essentially distils IT all down to one, eight and half by eleven sheet, which we provide for people.

And um he says there I don't want to give too much way because I would detract from what he does so beautifully but if I have tried and I went to accomplished anyway um but he said and I believe that the subconscious is the supercomputer of the brain all the stuff working underneath our conscious awareness that's driving our feelings and are what we think are the decisions that we've thought through so carefully and that only by expLoring the subconscious and understanding in a little bit can we actually improve ourselves over time and I agree. I think that so that the mistake is to think that thinking can override at all. It's a certain style of introspection and thinking that um allows us to read the signals from our body, read the signals from our brain, integrate the the knowledge that we're collecting about ourselves and and to use all that in ways that are really adaptive and generated for us.

What do you think is there and that so conscious? What do you think of the Young and shadow? What what's there?

You know, there's this idea is you you're familiar with two. I'm sure that this Young, an idea that there we all have all things inside of us, that all of us have the capacity to be evil, to be good at, said, but that some people express wanted the other to greater extent. But he also mentioned that there's a unique category of people, maybe two to five percent of people, that don't just have all things inside of them, but they actually spend a lot of time expLoring a lot of those things. The darker resources, the shadows, their own shadows.

You know, i'm somebody who's drawn to goodness and to light into joy and all those things like anybody else yeah I think um maybe part of how I grew up maybe was the crowd I was with um um maybe but then again, you know even when I started more time with academics and scientists, I mean um you see shadows in other ways, right you see pure ambition with no passion I I I A colleague um in san ago who IT was very clear to me, did not actually care about understanding the brain. But understanding the brain was just his avenue to exercise ambition. And if you gave him something else to work on, he would work on that.

In fact, he did. He had laughed. He worked on something else I realized, has no passion for understanding the brain, like all, I assumed that all scientists do, certainly why I went into IT.

But some people just raw ambition. It's about winning and doesn't no matter what they win to, which to me is crazy. But I think that's a shadow that some people explored, not when I have explored. I think the shadow parts of us are very important to come in to understand and look Better, to understand them and know that they're there and work with them then to not acknowledge their presence and have them surface in the form of addictions or behaviors that that damage us in other people.

So one of the processes for achieving mental health is to bring those things to the surface. So fish is so conscious.

Mine, yes. And um and you know he appalled, describes ten hubbard that one can look into for expLoring the self. There's the structure of self and the function of self.

Again, this will be spelled out in the series in a lot of detail also in terms of its relational aspect between people, how to pick good partners and good relation to get really into this from a very different perspective. Yeah, fascinating stuff. I was just sitting there.

I will say this that that four episode series with paul is at least to date, the most important work i've ever been involved in in all of my career because it's very clear that we are not taught how to explore us of conscious yeah and that very few people actually understand and how to do that even most psychiatrists is, he mentions something about psychiatrists, cardiothoracic surgeon, or something like that. Fifty percent year patients die. You're considered a bad cardiothoracic surgeon, but with no different spect psychiatry there.

There are some excEllent psychiatrist out there. There also a lot of terrible psychiatrist s out there. Because unless all of those all of their patients commit suicide or hf commit suicide, they can treat for a long time without IT becoming visible that they're not so good at their craft.

Now he's superbad his craft, and I think he would say that, yes, expLoring some shadows, but also just understanding the self, like what what you know really understand, like like who am I? What's important? What are my ambitions? What are my strivings? Again, i'm lifting from some of the things that that he'll describe exactly how to do this.

People do not spend enough time addressing those questions, and as a consequence, they discover what resides in their subconscious through the sometimes bad, hopefully also good, but manifestations of the actions that we are driven by this huge ninety percent of our real state that is not visible to our conscious awareness. And we we need to understand that, you know, i've talked about this before. I ve done therapy twice a week since I was a kid.

I had to, as a condition of being let back in school. I continue. I found a way to either through insurance or even when I did not insurance, that take an extra job writing for the asha magazine, when I was a postbox like a pay for a therapy at at a discount because I didn't make much money as a post talk.

I mean, I think for me is as important as going to the gym. And people think it's just ruminating on problems are getting weren't. No, no, no.

If you work with somebody really good, they reforming you to ask questions about who you really are, what you really want. It's not just about support, but there should be support, there should be report. But then it's also there should be insight, right? Most people who get therapy, they're getting support. There's a poor but insight is not easy to arrive that and a really good psychologist or psychiatrist can help you arrive at deep insights that transform your entire life.

Well, sometimes when I look inside and I do this often, you know, expLoring who you truly are. You come to this question, do I accept once you see parts? Do I accept this? Or do I fix this? Is, 是， is this who you are fundamentally? And I will always be this way.

Or is this a problem to be fixed? Like, for example, one of the things, especially recently, but in general, over time, i've discovered about myself probably has roots in childhood, probably has roots in a lot of things, as I deeply value loyalty, maybe more than the average person. And so when there's disloyalty, IT can be painful to me.

And so this is who I am. And so do I have to relax bit? Do I have to fix this part? Or is this who you are? And and there's a million.

that's one like a little I think loyalties a good thing to clean to provided that when loyalty is broken that IT doesn't um disrupt too many others of your life. But IT finds also on whose disrupting that loyalty if it's a cover grover's as a romantic partner versus your exclusive romantic partner, depending on the structure of your romantic partner life. You know, I mean, I have always experienced extreme. Joy and feelings of safety and trust in my friendships again, mostly male friendships with female friendships, which is only say that they were mostly male friendships. The female friendships have also been very loyal, you know so getting back stabbed is not something unfamiliar with um and yeah I love being crushed up you know no for .

sure and i'm with you you know you are very much of the same on this, but you know that that's one little thing and then there's many other things. I got extremely self critical. Then you look at my you, I look at myself as i'm regularly very self critical.

There's a self critical engine of my brain. And I talked to actually pause about this, I think, in the podcast quite a bit. And he's saying, this is a really bad thing, like you need to fix this.

You need to be able to be regularly very, uh, positive about yourself. And I kept disagree with them. No, this is like who I am, like you and he seems to work.

Don't ask for the thing that seems to be working. It's fine. Like I used between being really grateful and really self critical, but then you have to like figure out what is IT. Maybe there's a deeper rute thing. There's an maybe there's an insecurity in there somewhere to do with childhood and then you're trying to prove something to somebody from your childhood, this kind of thing.

Well, A A couple of things that I think hopeful ly valuable for people here. One is one way to destroy your life is to spend time trying to control your or somebody else is passed. Um so much of our destructive of behavior and thinking comes from wanting something that we saw or did or heard to not be true rather than really working with that and getting close to what IT really was.

And you sometimes those things are even traumatic and we need to really get close to them and and for them to move through us and and that you know there are a unch of different ways to do that with support from others and hopefully, but sometimes on our own as well, that I don't think we can rewire our deep preferences and what we find despite our joyful, I do think that it's really question of what allows us peace. Like can you be at peace with the fact that you're very self critical and enjoy that? Get some distance from IT have a sense humor about IT or is IT driving you in a way that skeeters ing you awake at night? And yes, and fourteen, you back to the table to do work in a way that feels self flag late and doesn't feel good.

You know, can you get that humility and awareness of how you of your one's flaws and I think that that that can create you you this word space sounds very new age, you like, get space from. And is that, you know, you can never sense a humor about how how you neurotic we can all be. I mean, no, neurotic isn't actually bad term in the classic sense of of the psychologists and psychiatrists.

Floridians said that you know the best case is to be neurotic, to actually see one's own issues and work with them where as psychotic as is the other the other way to be a which is obviously not good. So I think um the question whether or not to work on something or to um just accept IT as part of ourselves, I think really depends if we feel like it's holding us back or not. And I think you're asking perhaps the most profound question about being a human, which is you know what what do you do with your body? What do you do with your mind? I mean, if you it's also question.

We started of talking about fitness a little bit, which for whatever reason, do I need to run an ultra you marathon? I don't feel like I need to, David. Garages does and IT does a whole lot more than that.

So that for him, that's important for me, it's not important to do that. I don't think he does IT just so we can run the ultras. Um there's clearly something else in there for him and guys like tremens respectful for what they do and how they do IT just one need to make their body more muscular, stronger, more insurance, more flexibility.

Do you need to read harder books? You need that. I think doing hard things feels good. I think that I know IT feels good. I know that the worst feel, the worst way to feel is when procrastinating and I don't do something. And then whenever I do something and I complete IT, I break through that point where IT was hard and then i'm doing IT.

At the end, I actually feel like I was infused with some sort of um super chemical and who knows if is probably a cocktail of of the darragon sly made chemicals. But I think IT is good to do hard things, but you have to be careful not to destroy your body, your mind in the process. And I think it's about whether or not you can achieve peace.

Or can you sleep well at night? Stress is in bad. If you can sleep well at night, be stressed all day. Go, go, go, go, go, go, go. And it'll optimize your focus.

But Kenny fall sleep and C, D, play sleep at night, being in a hard relationship. Some people say, you know, that's not good. Other people like IT, can you be a piece in that? And I think we all you know I have different rpm.

You know we all can edit different rpm. And um some people are big mallow costello and others are kind of like, you know need need more friction in order to to feel at peace. But I think ultimately what we want is to feel at peace.

We have been through some really low points over the last couple years. And I think the reason could be bought down to the fact that I haven't been able to find a place of peace, A A, A place or people, our moments that give deep inner peace yeah you know and I think you put IT really beautifully. It's you have to figure out, given who you are, the various characteristic of your mind, all the things, all the contents of the cupboard h to how to get space from IT, and ultimately, one good representation to be able to laugh at all of IT, whatever, whatever going on inside your mind, to be able to step back and just kind of chocolate at the at the beauty and the absurd of .

the whole thing yeah, and keep going. There is beautiful as I mention. Seems like every part cast lately, my huge transit fan, most because I just think timm strong is writing is pure poetry and without you like the music or not um you know and he's written in music a lot of other other people too is and not doesn't advertise that much because he's humble but I am that by the way .

I want to show of there is like twenty years or yeah .

i'm going to see them in boston, september here and i'm literally flying there for for where i'll take the train back from new york meet a friend of my named jim zebu who's big guy until our companies of skateboard industry, we're meaning there like a couple of kids to go see them play. Amazing, amazing people, amazing new music. Very intense, very intense, but in embodies all the different emotions.

That's why I love IT, right? They have some love songs, some hate songs, say some in um but you know there's going back to what you said. I think there's a there's a song, the first song on the the instructions able album.

I think that there's a um it's sort of he's just argument like shocking and disbelief of discovering things about people that we're close to you and you know it's I I won't IT but when there but but there's this one lyric where that's really stuck in my mind for for ever since that I am came out in two thousand three which is you know that nothing's what IT seems so I ve just to hear laughing. I want to keep going on, kick at, distracted. There is this piece of, like, you gotta learn how to push out the disturbing stuff sometimes and go forward.

And I mean, I remember hearing that lyrick and and then writing IT down and does a time where my undergraduate visor, who is like A A mentor and a father to me, know blue head off in the bad tub like three weeks before. And then my graduate advisor, who was working for that time, who had loved in the door, was really like a mother to me. I knew her when he was pretty with her two kids, died at fifty breast cancer.

And my postdoc adviser, you know, first day work at stanford as a faculty members sitting across the table like this, from him out of heart attack right in front of me, died of pancreatic cancer at the end of twenty seventeen. And I remembers thinking, like you going back to that song, you're over and over like and where people would you know haven't had many betrayals in life. I've had a few.

But and just thinking like we're seeing something, you're learning something about something just like you can't believe IT and I I mention that that lyric of that first song in the structural on that album because it's this the t like just the raw emotion of like I can't believe this. What I just saw is so disturbing, but I have to just keep going forward. There are certain things that we really do need to push not just into our priory, but off into the gutters and keep going.

And that's a hard thing to learn how to do. But if you're going to be functional in life, you have to, and actually, just to get at this issue of do I change or do I embrace this aspect of self? About six months, there was April of this last year.

I did some intense work around some things that we're really chAllenging to me, and I did IT a loan, and you may have involved some medicine. And I expected to get peace through this. I was like, i'm going to let go.

And I spent eleven hours just getting more and more frustrate and angry about this thing that I was trying to resolve. And I was so unbelievably disappointed that I couldn't get that relief and ask, what is this like? This is not how this supposed to work.

I'm supposed be, feel peace. The clouds are supose to lift. And so a weakened by, and then another half we went by, and then someone who whose opinion I trust very much.

I explain this to them because I was getting a little concern like, what's going on? This is worse, not Better. And they said, this is very simple.

You have a giant blind spot, which is your sense of justice, Andrew, and your sense of anger are linked like an iron rod, and you need to real exit. And as they said that I felt the anger dissipate. And so there was something that I think is IT is true.

I have a very strong sense of justice. And my sense of anger then at least, was very strongly linked to IT. So it's great to have a sense of justice, right? I hate to see people wrong. I absolutely do and and i'm human i'm sure of wrong people in my life I know I have they told me I tried to apologize and reconcile where possible stop a lot of work to do um but where I see injustice IT draws in my sense of anger in a way that I think he's just eating me up and but he was only in hearing that link that I wasn't aware of before IT was in my subconscious obviously um did I feel the relaxation IT wasn't there's no amount of plant medicine or m dma or any kind of chemical. You can take that naturally, just going to dissipate.

What's hard for oneself? IT needs if one in races at all, if one chooses to do IT through just talk therapy or journal or friends or ta specking all of the above, there needs to be an awareness of the things that we're just not aware of. So I think the answer to your question, do you embrace or do you fight these aspects of self is um I think you get in your subconscious through good work with somebody skilled or and sometimes that involves the tools I just mentioned in various combinations and you figure IT out you figure out if it's serving you.

Obviously, IT was not bringing me peace. IT was undermining my my sense of justice, was undermining my sense of peace. And so in understanding this link beat now I would say the in understanding this link between justice and anger now I think it's a little bit more of like, you know, it's not like a twizzlers stick bendy, but it's at least it's not like an iron rod like when I see somebody wrong, I mean, used to just like like immediately.

but you're able to step back now then did is like to me the ultimate place to reach is laughter.

I just sit here laughing. exactly. That's that's lera. I like, I can't believe that I just sit here laughing.

Like can't get distracted IT just at some point. But but the problem, I think, is just laughing at something like that gives you distance. But the question is, does do you stop engaging with at that point?

Like I experiences this. I mean, recently, i've got to see how sometimes i'll see something that just like, what like, this is crazy. I just laugh.

But then I continue to engage in IT and it's taking me off course. And so there is a place where, you know, I mean, I realize this is probably a kid show too. So I want to keep you know g rated but at some point for certain things that makes sense to go fuck that.

but also laugh at yourself for saying fuck that .

yeah and then move on. So the question is, are you you get stuck? Do you move on?

Sure, right? sure. But like there's a lightness of being a kind of laughter. I mean, i've got sure.

I guess, you know, I spent today with the land today he just game this burned hair. Do you know what this is? I have no idea.

I'm sure there is. Actually, this should be lab ex ode on. This is a colony that's burned hair and it's a supposed .

bly really intense smell. And IT is yourself .

because I don't know.

you can. So i'm reading an amazing book yeah, called an immense world by the Young. He want a pollo ter for, uh, we contain multitudes or something like that, I think, is to tell the other book and the first chapters all Better of action in the incredible power that all faction has that smells terrible. IT doesn't leave you for .

those listening. IT doesn't quite smell terrible, is just intense in a stage video. This this to move represents like just laughing a deep.

sure to do IT all.

So I have.

So you, is that right between and happen.

I think you on is a huge believer of the idea of the most ing outcomes, the most likely. And he almost like there is almost the sense that there's not a free will and the universe has kind of deterministic gravitation field pulling towards the most fun and he's just a player in that game. So from that perspective, I think IT seems like something like that .

is inevitable, like a lego scrap in the parking lot of facebook or something like exactly meta yeah but that looks like they're training for on zaka has competed right jiu.

So um I think he is approaching IT as a sport on is approaching IT as a spectacle. And I mean the way he talks about his a huge fan history, he talks about all the warriors that he thought throughout history. He he wants to really do that the cause and you know the cosme is for four hundred years as so much great writing about this um I think over four hundred thousand people have died in the cosme fliddy or so this is this historic place that shed so much blood, so much fear, so much anticipation, battle all of this so he loves this kind of spectacular and also the meme of IT, the hilarious, absurd of IT that two taxi OS are battling IT out on sand in a place where gladiators fought to the death and the bears and lions, eight prisoners as part of the execution process.

What's also, there can be an instance where march socker g an ellam ask has changed bodily fluid. They believe this. One thing about fighting, you know, I think I was in that book, is great book fighters' heart, where he talks about, you start the intimacy of spying.

I, I only role you, just what he wants. But there was a period time when I boxed and I don't recommend I got hit. I hit some guys and definitely got hit back. But on wednesday night and live done, Sandy, you and you know when you sparrow with somebody, even if they hurt you, especially if they hurt you, you know you see that person afterwards and there's there's an intimacy right here. And I was in that bookstores, heart, where he explains you you're exchanging bottle fluid with a stranger, right? And there's a you're in your primitive mind and so there's an intimacy there that process so you go .

together through a process of fear, anxiety.

like yeah when they get you, you not I mean watch somebody you like catch somebody if you know not so much in professional fine but if people respiring they catch you you you acknowledge that they caught you like he got me there.

And on the flip side of that, so we trained and then after that we played the .

I know that is I don't play for the right.

but the video game so like it's a um you know pretty intense combat in the video fighting like demons okay.

video again played was my test punch out in recent went on his podcast hasn't out and yeah yeah I asked mike if kids are great they came in their super smart kids goodness craigs they ask great questions um asked me what he did with the piece of hander's year that that he bit off and he remember yes I get back to here you go sorry well that .

he tells edibles .

that are in the shape of ears with a little by out of IT yeah that his his life has been incredible. He's a mate yeah his family get the sense that they're really a great family. There are really mike tyson.

That's a heck lar journey there of a man.

yeah. My now friend timm m. Strongly is, at least in referenced, he put IT best. He said, you know that my tysons life is, you know, shake experience down up, down, up. And just that the arch of his life are just like have been only in america. Na tale too.

right? So speaking of shakespeare, recently gone to know neither axmen, who is this incredible scientists that works at the intersection of nature and engineering and SHE a reminding me of this, a ana hamodia line. This is a great soviet poet that I really love from a over century ago that each of our lives is a SHE experience drama race to the thousand degree. So I have to ask, why do you think humans are attracted to this kind of ship experience drama? Is there some aspect we've been talking about thus of conscious mind that that pulls us towards the drama, even though the place of mental, healthy peace?

yes.

And yes. Draw .

wards drama. yeah. If you look at the empirical data.

yes, I mean that right.

If I look at the empirical data, I mean, I think about who I chose to work for an undergraduate, right? I was barely finished high school. Finally, get the college, barely.

I think about this is really embarrassing and not something to aspire to. you. You thrown out the dorms for fighting.

Barely passed my classes. The girlfriend and I split up. I mean, I was living in a squad going to big.

I was getting in trouble with the law. Then he got map. Here they go back to school.

Start working for somebody who do I choose to work for a guy who's an x nav guy whose smoke cigarettes in the fume hood, drinks coffee and we're injecting rats with M. D. M.

A. yeah. And you know, I was drawn IT like the personality, his energy. But I also, he was a great, great scientists, worked out a lot on a thermal regulation in the rain and um and more go to graduate school and working for somebody and decide that doing working in her laboratory wasn't quite right for me.

So i'm literally sneaking in the laboratory next door and working for the next door because I liked the relationships that he had to a certain set of questions. And he was a kind of a quirky person, know, so done to drama. But don tic, like characters. I like people that have texture. yeah.

And i'm not drawn to my ambition and driven people that seem to have a real passion for what they do in a unique ness to them that, you know you can have not kind of to say how is I can feel their heart for what they do and i'm drawn to that like and that can be good. The same reason I went to work for ben barris as a postdoc, IT, wasn't because he was the first trend member, the national army of scientists. That was just a feature where I love how he loved glia.

He would talk about these cells like they were. The most enchanting things that he ever seen in his life feels like this is like the biggest nerd i've ever met, and I love him. I think we're i'm drawn to that.

Um this is another thing that county makes uh elaborates on quite a bit more in the serious of mental health coming out. But there are different drives within us. There is this.

There are aggressive drives, not always for fighting, but for intense interaction. Me look at twitter, look at some, look at people clearly have an aggressive drive. There's also a pleasure drive. Some people also have a strong pleasure drive. They want experienced pleasure through food, through sex, through friendship, through adventure, you know, but I think the shake experience drama is the drama of the different drives in different ratios in different people.

I I know somebody, and she's incredibly kind, has an extremely high pleasure drive, loves taking great care of herself and people around her through food and through retreats and through all these things, and make spaces beautiful every where he goes, and is a gifts, these things that are just so unbelievably feminine and an incredible these guest to people in the kind and thoughtful about what they like and then um but I would say very little aggressive drive um from my read and then I know other people who just have a ton of aggressive drive and very little pleasure drive. And I think so there's this alchemy y that exists where people have these things in different ratios and then you blend in, you know the differences in the chrome zones and differences in hormones and differences in personal history. What you end up with is a species that creates incredible recipes of drama, but also peace, also relief from drama, contentment.

And then I realized this isn't the exact up of the question, but um someone I know very dearly actually x girlfriend of mine, long term partner mine um sent me something recently I think I had the nail the head which is that ideally for a man they eventually settled where they find and feel peace, where they feel peaceful, where they can be themselves and feel peaceful now i'm sure there is a equivalent to a mirror image of that for women um but this particular post that he said was about men and I totally agree and so um IT isn't always that we're seeking friction but prepared of our life. We ek friction drama, adventure, excitement, fights, um you know and doing hard, hard things. And then I think at some point, i'm certainly coming to this point now we're just like, yeah, that's all great and checked a lot of boxes but had a lot of close calls, flew really close to the sun on a lot of things with life in lemon and part in spirit and someone you know people close to and make IT and sometimes not making IT means they are the career they wanted went off a Cliff or the the their health and off a Cliff, their life when off a Cliff. But I think that um there's also the shake experience drama of the characters that exit the play and are living their lives happily in the backdrop. IT just doesn't make for as much entertainment.

That's one other thing that's a benefit. You could say the benefit of getting older is a finding the check point driver less appealing or finding the joy in the peace.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that um I think there's real piece with age. I think the other thing is this notion checking boxes is a real thing for me. Anyway I I have a morning meditation that I do. Um well I wake up now get my son like a hydra. He's about trying to all the things and I talk about um i've i've started to practice a prayer in the last year, which is new ish for me, which is we could talk about in .

the morning and I .

and then I have a meditation that I do that actually is where I think through with the different roles that I play. So I like I start very basic um I say, okay, i'm an animal, like we are we are like biologically animals, right? human.

You know i'm a man, i'm a scientist. I'm a teacher and my friend and my brother and my son. Here I go through this, I had this list, and I think about the different roles that I have and the roles that I still want in my life going forward that I haven't yet fulfilled. IT just takes me IT sort of an inventory of where i've been, where I met and where i'm going as they say um and I don't know why I do IT but I started doing IT this last year I think because um IT helped me understand just how many different context I have to exist and remind myself that there's still more than I haven't done that i'm excited about.

So within nature of those contacts, there's like things that you want to kind of accomplish to define that.

Yeah and i'm ambitious. So I think I am a brother. I have have an older sister and I love her tremendously, and I think I want to be the best brother I can be to her.

Which means maybe a call, maybe just um ah we do an annual trip together for our birthday. Birds are close together. We always go new york for our birthday.

We gone for last before years. Like really like reminding myself of that role, not because i'll forget, but because of all these other rules I get pulled into. I say the first one, i'm an animal because I have to remember that I have a body that needs care like any of us.

I need sleep, I need food. I need a duration. I need that. I'm human, that that the brain of a human is is marvi, sly, complex, but also obviously self to feeding at times. And so I been thinking about these things in the context of the different rules, and that the whole thing takes about four, five minutes and I just find IT brings me a certain amount of clarity that then allows me washed into the day the prior piece yeah i've think i've been reluctant to talk about until now because I don't believe in pushing religion on people and um and I think that and i'm not um it's a highly individual thing and I do believe that one can be an atheist and still pray more gonna stic can still try but for me IT really came about through understanding that there are certain aspects of myself that I just couldn't resolve on my own and no matter how much there will be no matter how much and I haven't done a lot of IT.

But no matter how much plant medicine or others were some medicine or exercise or podcasting or science or friendship or any of that, I was just not going to resolve and so um I started this because um someone close to me um said a male friend said, you know prayers powerful and I said how and said I don't know how, but if if you can get can allow you to get outside yourself, let you give up control at the same time. Take control I only likes me take control but the whole notion is that, again, forgive me but there's no other way to say that the whole notion is that you know, like god works through us whatever god is to you, he hit, he, him, her, whatever life force, nature, whatever IT is you right? That IT watched through us.

And so I do a prayer. L just describe IT where I, I ask, I make an ask to help remove my defects, my character defects. I pretty got IT help remove my character defects so that I can show up Better in all the rules of my life and do good work like to which for me is learning and teaching, learning and teaching and and so you might say, well, how's that different in a meditation?

Well, i'm acknowledging that there is something that bigger than me, bigger than nature, as I understand IT that I cannot understand or control, nor do I want to. And i'm just giving over to that. And does that make me less of a scientist? I, I, I shall hope not.

I certainly know there is the head of our neurosciences at stanford until recently um I you should talk to him directly about a bill newson has talked about his religious life. Um for me it's really a way of getting outside myself and then understanding how I fit into the bigger picture and it's and the character defects part is real right i'm a human. I have defects like I got a lot of force in me like anybody but um and trying to acknowledge them and asking for help in removing them, not magically but through right action, through my right action.

So I do that every morning and I have to say that helped, helped a lot. It's helped me be Better to myself, be Better other people. I still make mistakes, but it's it's becoming a bigger, bigger part of my life and I never thought I talk like this.

But I think it's clear to me that if we don't believe in something that doesn't have to be traditional standardized religion, but if we don't believe something bigger than ourselves, we at some level will self destruct. I really, I really think so. It's and it's powerful in a way that all the other stuff, meditation and all the tools is is not because it's really Operating at at a much deeper and bigger level.

And you know yeah, I think that I think that's all I can talk about IT, most of because i'm still working out you know the scientists and me once understand how IT works, I won't understand. And the point is to just go you know there's some there's you know for actually Better language for IT. They're higher power than me and what I can control, i'm giving up control on certain things. And somehow that restores a sense of agency for for right action.

Better action. I think perhaps a part of that is just the humility that comes with acknowledging there's something bigger and more powerful than you .

and you can control everything. It's I mean that you go through life as a hard driving person, you know, forward center of mass. I've remember being that way since I was little like legos, all legos like on the weekends, you know, learning about medieval weapons and giving lectures about in class one of five or six years old, we're learning about tropical fish, you cat logging of them at the store and then organizing and and make my, you know, I drive me, my mom driving me at some fish store and then spending all my time there until they thrown me out. You know, all of that, but I also remember my entire life.

I would secretly pray when things were good and things weren't good, but mostly when things weren't good, because it's important to pray for me. It's important to pray in each morning regardless. But when things weren't right, I couldn't make sense that I would secretly pray, but I felt of ashamed of that for whatever reason.

And then I was once in college, I distinctly remember I I was having a hard time with a number of things um and I took a run down to sand beach you see some barba and I remember I just I like I don't know if I even have the right to to do this, but i'm just praying I just prayed for the ability to be as brutally honest with myself and with other people as I possibly could be about a particular situation I was in at that time. I mean, I think now it's Price said i'd gone after college because of a high school girlfriend, and I was my family more, Frankly, more than my biological family was at a certain stage of life. And we reach a point where we were diverging.

You know, IT IT was incredibly painful. IT was like losing everything I had. And I like, what do I do? How do I manage this to I I was ready to quit and join the fire service. Just support us so that we could move forward.

And and um and you know it's just but praying just go saying I can't figure this out of my own it's sort like I can't figure this and how frustrating that is a no number of friends could tell me and inner wisdom couldn't tell me and eventually let me to the right answers and SHE are friendly friends to this day she's apply my child and um very good terms. But I think you know it's it's it's a scary thing, but it's the best thing when you I can control of this and asking for help I think, is also the peace. You're not asking for some magic can to come down and take career. You're asking for the help to come through you, right, so that your body is used to do this right? Works right?

Action isn't an interesting that the secret thing that you almost embarrassed that you did IT as a child is something you is another thing you do as you get older, as you realized, like those things are part of you is actually a beautiful thing.

A lot of the content of the podcasts, you deep content, and we talk about everything from, you know disorder by polar disorder to depression, you know A A lot of different topics. But the tools, the protocols, as we say, right, the sunlike viewing all the rest, you know, lot of that stuff is just stuff I wish I known when I was in graduate school.

If I known to go outside every once and while I get some sunlight, not just stay in the lab, I I might not have hit a like, a really tough round of depression when I was a postdoc and working twice as hard. And, you know, when my body would break down, or I get sick a lot, I don't get sick much anymore. Occasion about once every eighteen months to two years, I can get something but learned.

You know, I used to break my foot scape in all the time. My connection, what's wrong with my body? I'm getting injured. I can't do what everyone else can know.

I developed more slowly at a long ark of puberty um but I said that was part of IT are still developing but you know how to get your body stronger, how to build dance? No one told me. The information was in there. A lot of what I put out there is the information that wish I had, because once I had IT like wall, like a this stuffer really work to be, it's ground's in something real.

Sometimes certain protocols, our combination of, you know, animal human and animal human study, sometimes clinical trial, sometimes there are some mechanistic conjecture for some, not all, I always make clear, which, but in the end, like figuring out how things work so that we can be happier, healthier, more productive, suffer less. I reduce the suffering of the world um and I think that well i'll just say thank you and um for asking about the player peace again. I'm not pushing or even encouraging IT on anyone. I ve just found IT to be tremendously useful for .

me you know I mean about prayer in journalist said information and figuring out how to get stronger, healthier, smarter, all those kinds of things apart. My believes that deeply, you know, you can gain a lot of knowledge and wisdom through learning. But a part of believes that all the wisdom I need was, was there when I was eleven and twelve old.

and then I got cluttered over, well, listen, I can't wait for you in county to talk again. Because when he gets going about the subconscious in the amount of this that sits below the surface like an iceberg, an and I in the fact that when were kids, we're not obscure ing a lot of that of conscious as as much and and sometimes I can look a little more primitive. I an, I mean, the kid that disappointed will let you know.

The kid that's excited will let you know. And you feel that raw huberts or that raw dismay. And I think that um as we grow older, we learn to cover that stuff up, we wear masks and we have to be functional, right? I don't think we all want to go around just being completely raw.

But as you said, as you get older, you also you get to this point, we can ago, you know what? What are we really trying to protect anyway? I mean, I have this theory that certainly my experiences taught me that a lot of people, but i'll talk about men because that's what I know best, whether that they show up strong or not, that they're really afraid of being weak, like they're just afraid, like sometimes the strength is even a way to try and not be weak, right, which is different than being strong for its own sake.

I'm not just time, my physical strength, sometime intellectual strength, some time about money. I'm talking about um expressing drive. I've been watching this series a little bit of chip empire oh yeah so jump empire is amazing, right? They have the head chip there is not the head chmela the alpha in the group, and he's getting older.

And so what does he do? Every once in a while he goes on these vigor. He goes in his grabs brand.

He starts break him and start thash ing. And he's incredibly strong in their whole kind, like watching. I mean, yes, I immediately think of people like they're dead lifting on instagram. I just think vigor, displays of vigor. This is just the primate telling that displays a vigor. Now it's interesting is that he's doing that specifically to say, hey, I still have what IT takes to lead this troop, okay, then they're the the ones that are subordinate to him, but not so not so far behind IT seems to .

be that there's a very clear like numerical ranking. There is like it's clear who's the number two, number three.

I know who gets to make first, who gets the first this exists in other animal societies to but bob proposed you would be a great person to talk ward this with because he knows obviously terminus count about and I I know just the top computer but um yes the number two, three and four males are aware that he's doing these figure displays.

But they're also aware because in prime evolution, they got some extra forebrain too as much as us, but they got some. And they are aware that the vigor displays are displays that because they've done them as well in a different contacts, might not just be displays a vigour, but might also be an insurance policy against people seeing weakness. Okay, so now they start using that preference tal cortex to do some interesting things.

So in in primary world, if a male is friendly with another man wants to affiliate with him, say, hey, i'm backing you, they'll go over there. They'll ll pick off the parasites and eat them. So the grooming is extremely important fact.

If they want to austria ze or kill one of the members of their um trip, they will just leave IT alone. No one will grew IT. And then there's actually a really disturbing sequence in that show of then the pair sites started eat away on their skin.

They get infections. They have issues. No one will meet with them. No one. They have other issues as well and can potentially die.

So the interesting thing is a number two and three start to line up a energy to gloom, this guy, but they are actually talking about overtaking the entire troop setting in a new alpha. But the current alpha did that to get where he is. So he knows that they're doing this grooming thing, but there might not be sincere about the grooming ing.

So what does he do? He takes the whole troop on a RAID to another troops, cie, who will fight for him and who won't? This is advanced contracting of behavior for a species that Normally we don't think of us as open istis atas. So it's very interesting in to gets to something that hope will have an opportunity to talk about because it's something that i'm obsessed with lately. Is this notion of over versus covert contracts, right? There are over contracts where you exchange work for money or you exchange any number of things in an over way but then there are covert contracts um and those take on a very different form and always lead to uh in my belief, bad things.

Well, how much of human and chip relationships are over versus cover? Well.

here's one thing that we know is true, dogs and humans, the dog to human relationship is one hundred percent over. They don't manipulate you. Now you could say they do in the sense that they learn that if they look a certain way or roll on their back they get food.

But there is no um there's no banking of that behavior for a future date where then they are going to undermine you and take your position okay. So in that sense stocks me little bit manipulative in some sense. Um now okay.

So over contract would be, we both want you and work together. We're going to make some money. You get experts tage.

I get experts tage over covert contract, which is my opinion. But always bad would be where you need some work together. You're gna get a person of money.

I'm going to a get a percentage of money, could look just like the over contract, but secretly unresented that I got, the percentage I got. So what I start doing is covertly taking something else. What do I take? Maybe I take the opportunity to job you verbally.

Everyone's in a while. Maybe I take the opportunity to shop late. Maybe I take the opportunity to get to know one of your co workers so that I might start a business with them that's covered contracting. And you see this sometimes in romantic relationships, one person, we won't set the male, female in any direction here and just say it's all make you feel powerful if you make me feel desired okay, great. There's nothing explicitly wrong about that contracts if they both know and they both agree.

But what if it's i'll do that, but i'll have kids with you so you feel powerful, you'll have kids with me so I feel this are but secretly, I don't want to do that or they one person said I don't wanted do that or both don't so what they end up doing and saying, okay, so I expect something else. I expect you to do certain things for me or I expect you to pay for certain things for me. Covert contracts or the signature of everything bad over the contracts, are the signature of all things good? yeah.

And I think about this a lot because i've seen a lot of examples of this. I've like anyone, we participate these things, whether not we want to or not, in the thing that gets transacted the most is, well, I should say the things that get transacted the most are the overt things you'll see money, um time, sex. Property, whatever happens to be information.

But what ends up happening is that when people, I believe, don't feel safe, they feel threatened in some way like it's they don't feel safe in a certain interaction. What they do is they start taking something else while still engaging in in the exchange. And i'll tell you if there's one thing about human nature that's bad.

It's that feature. Why that feature? Or is that a bugger feature as your engineering like to say?

I think it's because we were allocated a certain extra amount of prefrontal cortex that makes us more sophisticated than a dog, more of a scape than a chimpanzee. They do IT too. And it's because it's often harder to deal with in the short term, to deal with.

The real sense of this is scary. This feels threatening. Then IT is to play out all the iterations.

IT takes a lot of brain work to you playing chess and go simultaneously trying to figure out where things are going to end up, and we just don't know. So it's a way, I think, of creating a false sense of certainty. But i'll tell you, cover the contracts.

The only certainty is that it's gona end badly. The question is how badly conversely, over contracts always and well always, the problem with over contracts is that you can be certain that the other person is not engaging in a covert contract. You can only take responsibility .

for your own contract. Well, one of the chAllenges of being human is looking at another human .

being and figuring out the way their way of being.

their behavior, which of the two types of contracts that represents, because they look awfully the same on the surface. And one of the one of the chAllenges of being human is the decision we all make is, I used to me that takes a leap of trust and trust other humans and are willing to take the hurt. Are you going to be cynical and skeptical and avoid most interactions until they are they, over a long pater time, prove your trust.

I never liked the phrase history repeats itself um when IT comes to humans because IT doesn't apply if the people or the person is actively working to resolve their own flaws. I do think that if people are willing to do dedicated tropic tive work, go their subconscious, do the hard work, have hard conversations and get Better, hard conversation, something that i'm constantly trying to get Better at. I think people can change, but they have to want to change.

IT does seem like deep down we all can kind of tell the difference in over and cover might have a good sense. I think one of the benefits of having this characteristic of mine, where a valued loyalty, you've been extremely fortunate to spend most of my life in over relationships, and I think that creates a really fulfilling life.

But there's also this thing that maybe we are in this a portion of the podcast now, but but just pray this .

late at night, we're talking.

that's right, certainly late for me. But i'm two hours I came in today and i'm here and we should .

also say that you came here to wish me happy.

But I did. I did I in the .

pok as I just like a fun last minute thing I suggested.

Yes, close friends of years have arranged a dinner that i'd really looking forward to. I won't say which night. It's the next couple of nights. You know usually clock um is one the most robust features of your biology. I know you can be nocturnal or you can be dire.

Al, we know you're mostly nocturnal, certain problems that your locks but um but there very very few people can get away with no sleep, very few people can get away with the chaotic sleep wake schedule, have to obey at twenty four hour A K circadian rhythm um if you want to remain healthy of mind and body. We also have to acknowledge that its agents in lennar right? So I mean, well, I mean you the degree of change between years thirty five and forty is not going to be the degree of change between forty and forty five.

But I will say this, i'm forty eight and I feel Better in every aspect of my psychology and biology now then I did when I was in my twenties yeah sorry, quality of of thought um time spent on physically. I can do what I did then, which is probably says more about what I can do than than what I can do now. But if you keep training, you can continue, get Better.

The kids did not get injured, and i've never trained super hard. I trained hard, but I have been cautious to not, for instance, and weight train more than two days in a row. I do a split respice y three days a week, and the other days are run.

Take one for day off, take week off. Every twelve to sixteen weeks. I've not been the guy hurling the heaviest est waves are running the further er's distance.

But I have been the guy who is continuing to do IT when a lot of my friends are talking about nee injuries tell you about he just but of course I with sport you can't account for everything the same way you can with fitness and and I have to do acknowledge that um unless one is power lifting a weight lifting and running you can get hurt but not skateboard where if if you're going for you're going to get hurt that's just you're landing on concrete and um IT would you just feel like people are trying to hurt you so that you say stop so with a sport is different um and these days I don't really do a sport any longer um I worked out um say fit I I used to continue to do sports by kept getting hurt and Frankly now like A A role ankle um I may put out a small skype ard part in twenty twenty four because people have been saying we want to see the kick flip say what do heal fit instead but okay I might put a little part because some of the guys that work on our podcasts ter from dc I think by now I should at least do IT just as you're like not making IT up, I probably will. But I think doing a sport is different. That's how you get hurt over use and doing IT an actual sport and so had tip to those do an actual sport and that's .

a difficult decision like I A lot of people have to make. I have to make a judit. For example, like if you just look empirically, i've trained really hard from all my life and grappling sports, and fighting sports and all this kind of stuff. And i've avoided injury for the most part, and I would say I would attribute dad to training a lot, sounds counter to, but training well and safely, incorrectly, keeping good forms, saying no, and I need to say no, but training a lot and taking this seriously. Now, when this training is kind of a site, really a side thing, I find that the injuries of becomes A A higher, higher probability .

you once in a.

once in a yeah that I think .

you said something really important that the saying, no, I mean, the times I have gotten hurt training is when something like here let's talk on this work out together and that becomes to chAllenge each other to do something um sometimes as that can be fun though I went up to camin his gym and he does his very high repetition weight workouts that in circuit form, I was sorry for two weeks but um I learned a lot and didn't get injured in um in yes .

we ate both hunted dok after nice but the injury has been a really difficult psychological thing for me because so I have injured my my .

finger picky finger.

I'm trying to figure i'm trying to out. It's like if you .

look at this question, there have some really good snacks. I had some right before. Um he's very good about keeping cold drinks in the fridge um and all the water has element in IT, which is great.

I like that. But then there's a whole like hospitals worth of splints. I'm trying i'm .

trying to figure out. So here's the thing you the finger like pop, like this pinky finger, i'm trying to figure out how do I instance such a way that I can still program, still play guitar, but protect this kind of talk motion that create huge matter .

pain jus to but it's .

not the kind of it's probably more like a scape warning style injury, which is it's unexpected in a silly, in a silly .

that happens as I D, I didn't break my foot doing anything important. Yeah, I broke my deft ment darkle stepping off a curb. So it's that's whether called the accidents know if you get hurt doing something awesome, that's a trophy. Yeah, that you have to work through its part of your payment to the universe if you get hurt stepping out of a curve, or, you know, doing something stupid, call the stupid accident.

Since we brought up champ and empire, let me ask you about relationships. I think we talked about .

the relationships. And yeah.

I only date homosapien s the morning meditation. The night is so Young, you are human, no, but you are also animal. So short?

No, I say, listen, any discussion on the other law podcast about sexual health or anything will be that the critical force, consensual age, appropriate context, appropriate species.

appropriate species property. Can I just tell you about sexual selection? Um i've been watching life in color with David anibal have been wash.

A lot of a document is talking about inner peace. IT brings me so much peace to watch nature at its worse than in his bus. So life and colors is series on netherlands. IT presents some of the most colorful animals on earth and kind tells the story of how they got there through natural selection.

So, you know, you have the p ock with the fathers, and is just sitting incredible collars like the peak ck has these tail fathers, the male, they are like jagger antic in the super call from these eyes. And on that eyes it's like eye like areas. And and they would GLE their, us like to .

show the tail.

They would go the tail. I spots the ice.

But yes.

thank you. probably. Ch, and then the female is as boring looking as pot, like he has no color or nothing, but she's standing their board. Just seeing this entire display.

And i'm just wondering, like the entirety of life on earth or not, the entirety post bacteria is like in at least in part, maybe in large part can be described to this process of natural selection, of sexual selection. So dudes fighting and then women selecting IT seems like just the in the entirety of that series show some incredible birds and insects and shrimp. They're all beautiful and colorful and shrimp to shrimp, they're they're incredible.

And it's all about getting laid. It's passing just um and there's nothing like watching dad and chap empire to make you realize we humans that's the same thing. That's all we're doing. And all the beautiful variety, all the bridges in the buildings, in the rockets and the internet, all of that is this cut is a lecon part, this kind of A A product of this kind of showing off for each other and all the wars in all of this anyway. Um well there's a well right before .

you ask about relationship anything, what's clear is that every species IT seems animal species wants to make more of itself and protect its .

Young well, the protect this Young is non obvious .

so not destroy enough um of itself uh that I can't get more to reproductive competent age. I mean, I think that you know we have an unnatural I mean healthy people have a natural reflects to protect children. But I don't know those that can wait away.

wait away. I've seen enough animals that are murdering .

the other. There's first of all, I just want to say that I was delighted in your delight around animal kingdom stuff because this is a favorite theme of mine as well. But there is, for instance, some fascinating data on, for instance, for those a group on farms theyll be familiar with free Martins about free Martins.

This is their cows that have multiple cavs inside them. And there is a situation in which the caves will secrete, if there's more than one inside, will secrete chemicals that will um hormonally caste rates the the cap next to them so they can reproduce already in the whom they are fighting for the future resources. That's how early the stuff can start. So as chemical warfare in the room against the sibling, sometimes there's all right sibling de siblings are born, they kill one another um also becomes biblical stories right? There are instances of cut fish, beautiful suffer pods like octopuses and that is internet .

oh yeah.

that became a me or little discussion yeah it's .

a great pretty quick. I know we just refer the that .

this may and your voice is so amusing in an event that the male cut off fish will disguise themselves by female cut of fish, inflates the female cut fish um group and then mate with them you know um all all sorts of um you know types of covert. So I think it's like a drinking game where every time we say cover in contract and this eviot you have to take a shot of espresso. So um please don't do that. You've dead by the end.

So actually just a small attention that does make me wonder how much intelligence covert contracts required. Seems like not much if they if you can do IT in the animal condom, there's some kind of instinctual. If IT is based perhaps in like .

fear yet could be simple algorithm. If if if you know if there's some ambiguities about numbers and i'm not with these guys and you know then flip to the alternates strategy. I actually a story about this that I think is but I used to have cut of fish in my lab and sand ago.

We went and gotten from a guy out in the desert. We put them in lab as amazing and they had a postdoc who was studying prey capture and cut off fish. They have a very ballistic, extremely rapid striking grab of the shrimp.

And they um we were using high speed cameras a to to charities, all this looking at binocular. They Normally have their eyes on the side of their head. When they see something they want to eat.

The eyes translate to the front, which allows them steady access. Death perception allows them to strike. We are doing some uniloc removals. They would miss IT that OK. This is us with ice spot.

This was during a government shutdown period where the ghost shrimp that they Normally feed on, that we would ship in from the gulf down here, weren't available to us. So we had to get different shrimp. And what we noticed was the the cotton fish Normally would just sneak up on the shrimp.

We learn this by data collection. And if the shrimp was facing them, they would do this thing with their denticles of kind of enchanting the cuttle, but the the shrimp. And if the shrimp wasn't facing them, they wouldn't do IT, and they would politically gravity and and eat them.

Well, when we got these new shrimp, the new shrimp had ice spots on their tails, and then the cut fish would do this kind of attempt to enchant regardless of the position of. So what does that mean? okay.

Well, that means that there is some sort of algorithm in the cut fishes. Mind that. Okay, if you see two spots, move your tentacles.

So IT can be, as you pointed out, IT can be A A fairly simple Operation. But IT looks diabolical. IT looks cunning. But all IT is is strategy.

B, yeah. But it's still somehow emerged. I am I I I don't think that calling in an algorithm doesn't .

feeling what. There's a circuit there that gets implemented in a certain context, but that circuit had to evolve.

You do realize super telega will look at us humans. And i'll say the exact thing, there's a circuit in there that evolved to do this, the algorithm n, algorithm b, and it's trivial. And to us humans, is fans and beautiful. What I potry about IT.

But because we don't understand the because they want that, A I algorithm cannot see into what I can't see IT doesn't understand the underworked ings of what allows all of this conversation stuff to manifest. And we can't even see IT. How could A I see IT? Maybe IT will maybe maybe A I will solve and give us the accession of conscious, maybe your A I friend or coach like I think angry and others are are going is going to happen at some point.

Going to say you relax. You're making decisions lately that are not good for you. But it's because of this algorithm that you picked up in childhood that if you don't state your explicit needs up front, you're not gona get what you want to wide do IT. From now on, you need to actually make a list of every absolutely outrageous thing that you want, no matter how outrageous, and communicate that immediately. And that will work .

out about coalification ent sexual selection. And then we went to some, where do we go and you said you were excited.

I was I I was excited when you were just saying, what about these cover contracts and animals? Do I think it's simple contextual engagement of a nurse circuit, which is not just nerd speak for saying do a different story. Gy saying that there has to be as a circuit.

They are hardwired circuit, maybe learned but probably hardwired that can be engaged right? You can't build neural machinery out of in a moment. Um you need to build that circuit over time.

What is building IT over time? You select for the the cuttle fish that did not have that alternate context circuit didn't survive when there was a when all the shrip that they Normally disappear in the the ice spot showed up and there were a couple that add some missing iring. This is wide mutation, right?

X man stuff is real. Um they had a mutation that had some alternatives wiring, and that wiring gotto like for became a mutation that was adaptive as opposed to man adaptive. This is something people don't often understand about.

Genetics is that IT only takes a few generations to devolve a trade, make IT worse. But IT takes a long time to evolve and adapt of trade. There are exceptions to that, but most of often that's true. So species needs a lot of generations.

We are hopefully still evolving as a species and IT takes a long time, but that to evolve more, adapt tive traits but doesn't take long to the devolve adapted traits so that you're getting sicker or you're not functioning as well. So choose your mate wisely. And that perhaps the good segway into sexual selection.

I could tell you good. And I said, why? Why did I bring up sexual selection? The relationship? So sexual selection in humans, even I don't think you have done an episode on relationships.

No, I did an episode attachment, right? But not on relationships. That the series with county includes one episode of the four. That's all about relational understanding and how to selectivity based on a matching of drives.

And although the, the, the, the demons inside, the precondition ous how to match demons that they dance well together.

what and how generative two people are, what does that mean? Means how the way he explains IT is how devoted to creating growth within the context of the family, the relationship with work.

Well, let me ask about mating rituals and how to find such a relationship. You mean you're really big on friendships, on the value of friendships. And that, I think extends itself into a one one of the deepest kinds of friendships you can have, which is the romantic relationship, mistakes, successes and wisdom, can you in part.

well, i've certainly made some mistakes. I've also made some good choices in this realm. First of. All we have to define what sort of relationship were talking about if, if one is looking for a life partner, potentially somebody to establish family with, whether without kids, whether without pets, right? Families can take different forms.

And I certainly experience being a family in a prior relationship where IT was the two of us in our two dogs. And then I was like his family, and like we had our low family. I think based on my experience and based on input from friends who themselves have very successful relationships, I I must say i've got friends who are in long term monograms very happy. A relationships where there seems to be um a lot of love, a lot of laughter, allow chAllenge in a lot of growth and both people IT seems really want to be there and enjoy being there.

Just apart on that one thing to do, I think my by way of advice listening to people who are in log term successful relationships that like seems dumb but like like a we both know when our friends with joe rogan, who's been in a long term really great relationship and he's been an inspiration to me, so you take advice from that guy.

definitely. And several members of my podcast team are in excEllent relationships. I I think um one of the things that rings true over and over again in the advice and in my experience is you know find someone who's really a great friend.

I build a really great friendship with that person, obviously not just a friend for talking romantic relationship, but and of course, sex is super important, but IT should be a part of that particular relationship along side or mashed with the friendship. A cannot be a majority of the the positive exchange. I suppose I could. I think the friendship piece is extremely important because what's required in a successful relationship clearly is joy and being together trust.

A desire to share experience both you know mundane and and more um adventurous um support each other acceptance a real maybe of an admiration but certainly delight in being with the person you know earlier where your time at peace and I think that that sense of peace comes from knowing that the person you're in friendship weather that you're in romantic relationship, ideally both because they assume healthy relation. The best romantic relationship includes a friendship component with that person is like you just really delight in their presence, even if it's a quiet presence and you delight in seeing them, delight in things right um that's clear. Uh the trust piece is huge um you know and and that's where people start and we want to focus on what works, not what doesn't work, but that's where I think people start engaging these covert contracts.

They're afraid of being betrayed so they betray um they're afraid of giving up too much vulnerability. So they hide their vulnerability or in the worst cases, they fail vulnerability again. That's a cover contract that that just simply undermines everything that becomes one one equals minus one to conversely, I think if people can have really hard conversations, this is something you've had to work really hard on in recent years that i'm still working hard on.

But the friendship, he seems to be the thing that rises to the top. When I talk to friends who are in these great relationships, like they, they have so much respect and love and join being with their friend is the person that they want to spend as much of their non working, non plutonic friendship time with, and the person they want to experience things with and share things with. And that sounds so kind of kind in class note is, but I think if you step back and examine how most people go about finding relationship like like my tracked, of course, physical attraction is important.

Other forms of attraction to, and they serve, enter through that portal, which makes sense. That's that's the mating dance, right? That's in the peacock situation. That's hopefully not the cut off for situation that but I think that um there seems to be a history of people close to me getting into great relationships where they were friends for a while first or maybe didn't sleep together right away that they actually intentionally deferred on that um this has not been my habit or in my experience that you i've gone the more I think typical like oh, there's an attraction like this person.

There's an interest you can to explore all dimensions of relationship really quickly except perhaps the moving in part and having kids part um which ideal that because is the bigger step harder to undo without more severe consequences. But I think that i'll take its slow thing um I don't think is about getting to know someone slowly. I think it's about that physical peace because that does change the nature of the relationship.

And I think it's because IT gets right into the more hardwired primitive circuitry around our feelings of of safety vulnerability. Um you know there's something about romantic and sexual interactions where it's almost like it's like asset and liabilities, right, where people are trying to figure out how much to engage their time and their energy and multiple i'm talking about from both sides, you male, female or whatever IT sides. But where it's like asset and liabilities in in that's where IT starts getting into those complicated contracts early on.

I think so maybe that's why if a really great friendship and admiration is is establish first, even if people are romantically in sexually attracted to one of those, that then that piece can be added in a little bit later, in a way that really kind of just seals up the whole thing. And then, who knows, may be they spend nine percent over time having sexy. I don't know that that's not for me to say or or decide, obviously, but there's something there about staying out of a certain amount of. The risk of having to engage covert contract in order to protect oneself.

But I do think like love at first site, this kind of idea is in part realizing very quickly that you are great friends, like i've had that interest experience of friendship is is not not really friendship but like all you get each other we do with humans not are none of romantic, exciting right? Friendship yeah just friendship.

But but I say I felt that way, but we is cool. And he's smart and he's funny and he's driven and he's giving and he um and he's got an edge. And um like I want want to learn from to hang out them like that. I mean, that was the beginning of our friendship was essentially, you know that set of of internal .

realization .

looks great shirtless .

on horse back.

Yes, no, no, I know. Listen to me is, despite what some people might see on the internet, is purely platonic friendship out.

Somebody said, somebody asked if Andrew human an has a girlfriend and somebody says, I think so. And the third comment was, this really like, breaks my heart like that election. And Andrew are not not an item.

We are we are great friends, but we are not an item official. The I hear over and over again from friends that had made great choices and awesome partners and have these fantastic relationships for a long periods of time that seem to continue to thrive, least that's what they tell me and that's what I observe. Establish the friendship first and give you a bit of time before sex.

And so you know, I think that's the feeling. That's the feeling. And and these we're talking mico features and micro o features.

We're talking, you know, the season on about perfection. It's actually about the imperfections, which is kind of I like corky people. I like characters. I'll tell you where i've gone badly wrong, where I see other people going badly wrong. If there is no rule that says that you have to be attracted to all attractive people by any means, it's very important to develop a sense of taste in romantic attraction.

I believe what you really like a certain style, you know a certain way of being and of course that includes um sexuality um and sex itself the verb but IT I think IT also includes a just general way of being you know and and when you really the door somebody, you like the way they answer the phone and when they don't answer the phone that way you know something is off and you want to know and so I think that the more you can tune up your powers of observation, not looking for things that you like in, the more that stuff just kind of washes over you. The the more likely you are to couldn't call, fall in love as a mutual friend of ours said to me, know, listen, when IT comes to romantic relationships, if it's not one hundred percent in you, IT ain't happening. And i've never seen a violation of that statement where it's like, IT, yes, mostly good.

And there this and is IT like the negotiations are already it's doomed. And that does not mean someone has to be perfect. The relationship has to be perfect. But it's got a few hundred percent inside like, yes, yes and yes.

I think dice saw off when he was on here your podcast mention that you like, I think the words were, or maybe was in his book, I don't recall. But that you love is one of these things that we story into with somebody. We create this idea of ourselves in the future, and we look at our past time to together.

And then you story into IT. I mean, the very few things like that I can't story into, you know, building flying cars. I have to actually go do something.

I mean um love is also retroactively constructed. I mean, anyone who's gone through a break up understands the grief of knowing I like this is something I really shouldn't be in for whatever reason. If IT only takes one, if there is a person don't want to be, you shouldn't be in IT, but then missing so many things. And that's just the attachment machinery really at work.

I have to ask you a question. Does somebody and our amazing team wanted to ask, he's happening. Married another, like you mention, incredible relationship.

Are they good friends?

Are there amazing friends? go. But oxy, I know who IT is, so I can say some stuff, which is IT started out as a great sexual connection, there are you, but then became very close friends after listen to speak.

any pets to, he was.

he has a wonderful son, and he was wanted to have a second kid. And he went to ask the great Andrew human, is there a like sexual positions? Or are you kind of think they can help maximized the chance that they have a girl versus a boy? Because said that wonderful boy, they want a girl is there is a way to control the gender.

This has been debated for a long time. And I did a four and a half hour episode on fertility. And the reason I did a four and half our episode, tilly, is that first of all, I find that reproduction biology fascinating.

And I wanted a resource for people that um were thinking about or struggling with having kids for whatever reason. And I felt important me to combine the male and female components in the same episode time stamp. Listen, the whole thing about about I S natural, the data on position is very interesting. But let me just say a few few things.

There are a few clinics now, in particularly some out of the united states, that are spinning down sperm and finding that they can separate out for actions, as they're called you, that can spin the sperm down in a given speed and theyll separate out a different so of depth within the test tube that allow them to pull out the burn on top or below and bias the probability towards male or female bars. But it's not perfect. It's not one hundred percent.

It's a very costly procedure. It's still very controversial. Um now with individual feriz, ation can extract eggs he can do um introduce a sperm um directly by pipa t and process called xc or you can set up a supermax in the dish and if you get a number of different number OS um meaning the eggs get fertilized to duplicating start form a blast this is which is a ball cells early embro then you can do carrio typing so you can do look for xx or X Y.

Select the X, Y, which then would give us to a mail off spring and in plant that one so there is that kind of sex selection um with respect to position. There's a lot of lower that you know if um the woman is on top or the woman's on the bottom or whether not the pentridge is from behind, whether not it's gonna male or female or spring. And Frankly, the data um are not great, as you can imagine, because those those will be interesting studies to run perhaps.

Um there is study, there is paper, there are some, but they're not, I guess, this more lower than .

and there's a lot and there are a lot of other variables that are hard to control. So for instance, if if it's ejaculation during intermission during sex pentridge, it's that um then you can't measure for instance, sperm volume is supposed to when it's ivf, they can actually measure how many many leaders, how many forward motel, but is hard to control for for certain things.

And um this is can vary between individuals and even from one educate tion the accident. okay. So there's too many variables.

However, the position thing is interesting in the following way. And then I answer whether that you can buy as towards of female. I about sexual position. There are data that support the idea that in order to increase the probability of successful feriz ation, that indeed the woman should not stand up right after sex and should right after, right after the man is ejaculated inside her and should adjust her pElvis z say, fifteen degrees upwards I mean, you know, some of the fertility experts, mds will say that's crazy.

You know but others that I sort out and not specifically for the answer, but researching that episode said, yeah, you know what you're talking about is trying to get the maximum number of firm and it's containing in semon and yes, the semon can league out and so keeping um the pElvis tilted for about fifteen degrees for about fifteen minutes, obviously tilted in the direction that would have things running upstream and downstream, so to speak. Gravity is real you know um so so for vaccine zing feroza, you know the doctors I spoke to you just said that given that if people are trying to get pregnant, what is spending fifteen minutes on their back? Um you know this sort of thing.

okay. So then with respect to female getting a female offspring or xx female offspring um selectively there is the idea that as fathers get older they're more likely to have daughters as opposed to sons. That's a from the papers i've read is a significant but still mildly significant result. So at with each passing year um this person um increases the probability they're going have a daughter, not a son. So that's interesting.

But the probably differences are .

probably time. I mean it's it's not know it's a significant it's not trivial. It's not a trivial difference. Um but if they want to ensure having A A daughter, then they should do I V F and select an exec um embro. And um when you go through I V F, they genetically screen them for Carrier type, which is xxx y and they look at mutations, genotype c mutations for things like try to me is an um an employee is is all all the stuff you don't want but .

there's a lot of law. You look on the sure different food ds so a lot of variables.

there's a lot but the systematic studies. So um I think try the best thing to do unless I can do ivf is just in robotics and you know I think um with each passing year they can increase the probability of getting female offspring um and with but of course with each passing year the egg and sperm quality degrade so you know get after .

IT soon so I went on a rabid hole there's A X the journals oh yeah on okay so and .

some of some of them not all quite repeatable um yeah and some of them really pioneering in the same set they've taken on topics that are you considered outside the main frame of what people talk about. They're very important.

We have episodes coming out soon with for instance, the head of the neurology sexual health and reproductive health at stanford michelin bird but also um you know one with a female urologist, sexual health, reproductive health doctor rena molik who's on as a quite active youtube presence. SHE does he is really um like dry um like scientific presentation but very nice. He has a lovely voice and SHE but sh'll be talking about.

You erections are square or like all is IT like he does like very kind of internet type content. But she's a legitimate neurologist reproduction health expert. And in the podcast we we did talk about um both male and female orgasm.

We talked a lot about sexual function, this function. We talked a lot about pelvic floor. One interesting factoid is that only three only three percent of sexual this function is hormonal underground in nature h it's more often relate to some pelvic floor or vasculature blood flow related or other issue. Um and then when eisenberger came on the podcast he said that far less sexual this function is psychogenic in origin. Then people believe that far more of IT is perfect flor neural and vascular.

So you know there are the myth of um I mean it's not saying that is that psychogenic just function doesn't exist, but that a lot of the sexual this function that people assume is related to hormones or that is related to psychogenic issues are related to vascular or neural issues. And the good news that there are great remedies for those and um and so those both those episodes details some of the um more sAiling points about what those remedies are and could be I mean, one of that you kind of again, the active ids was interesting that you a lot of people at pelvic floor issues and they think that their pelvic floors are and quote, mess up so they go on the internet. They learned about eagles, eagles that you know and IT turns out that some people need key goles.

They need to strengthen their public public floor. Guess what? A huge number of people with sexual and urologix this function. I have public floors that are too tight, and cables are going to make them far worse, and they actually need to learn to relax their perfect floor. And so seeing a public floor specialist is important.

I think in the next five, ten years were going to see a dramatic shift towards more discussion about sexual and reproductive health in a way that acknowledges that yeah the caterie comes from the same origin tissue as the the piano and in many ways that the neural innovation of the two well clearly different has some uh overlapping features that um you know that there's going to be discussion around kind of anatomy and hormones and pallet floors and um in a way that's gonna you know um erode de some of that the kind of like cloaking of these topics because they've been closed for a long time and there's a lot of like because what is there's a lot bulshed IT out there about what's what um and now the hormonal issues, by the way, just to clarify, can impact desire. So allow people who have lack of desire as opposed to lack of in authority function, this Green male or female that that can originate with either that things like accessorize or or hormonal es. And so we talk about that as well. It's a prevent topic.

okay? You you are one of the most productive people I know. Um what was the secret productivity got you maximized the number of productive hours in a day. You're scientists, your teacher. You're a very prolific educator.

Thanks for the kind words. I struggle like everybody else, but I been pretty relentless about. Meeting deadlines. I missed them sometimes, but sometimes that means crumbing, sometimes that means starting early.

But has that been hard? Started to interpret the podcast you the certain episodes.

I mean.

you're like taking just incredibly difficile topics and you know they're going to be there is going to be a lot of really good scientists listening to those with a very sceptical and careful eye like how hard do you struggle me at deadline sometimes.

yes, that we've pushed out episodes because I want more time with them. I also haven't advertised this, but I have another of fully tenure professor that started i'm checking my my um podcast and helping me um find papers is close friend of my is incredible expert in neuroplasticity and that's been helpful but I researched all my all do all the primary research for the episodes yet. Although my nes has been doing a summer internship with me in finding amazing papers SHE did last summer as well. She's really good at IT just sick that kid on the internet and he gets great stuff.

Attention here. What's the hardest finding the papers or understanding what the papers saying?

Find finding finding the best papers. Yeah, because you have to, you read a bunch of reviews, figure out who's getting cited call people in the field make sure that this is the stuff I I did this episode recently on academy about academy. I wasn't on academy and and you know there's a whole debate about s vers r adem S R academy night. And I called two clinical experts at stanford. I had a researcher at U C L.

A me even then you know a few people had grapes about IT that I don't think they understood a section that I was perhaps could have been clear about um but yeah you you're always concerned that people won't either won't get IT or I won't be clear so that the researching is mainly about finding the best papers and then i'm looking for papers that establish a thrones of understanding that are interesting. Obviously, it's fun to get occasionally look at some of the order or more progressive papers that are you know what's knew in a field and then where their actionable takeaway to really export those with with a lot of thought fulness. I mean, I think that um going back to the productivity thing, um you know, I do.

I get up by, look the sun. I I want to stare the sun, but I get my sunshine. I IT all starts with a really good night sleep.

I think that's really important. Understand so much so that if I wake up and I don't feel arrested enough, I often do IT non sleety breast. You need you, or go back to sleep for a little bit, get up, really prioritize one. You know, the big block of work for the thing that i'm researching.

I think a little bit of anxiety and a little bit of concern about deadline helps turning the phone off, helps realizing that those peak hours, whenever they are for you you you do not allow those hours to be invaded unless there's A A nuclear bomb goes off um and a nuclear bomb is just a you know physiology for um you know that could be family crisis would would be good justification. There's an emergency, obviously but it's all about focus. It's all about focus in the moment.

It's not even so much about and how many hours you log. It's really about focus on how much total focus can you give to something. And then I like to take walks and think about things and sometimes talk about them in my voice recorder.

So i'm just always turning on IT all the time and and then of course, learning to turn off and engage with people social and not be podcasting. Twenty four hours a day in your head is key. But I think I love learning and researching and finding those papers in the information.

I love teaching IT. And these days I use a Whiteboard before I started. I don't have any notes, no teleprompter. The White board that I use beforehand is to really scalped out the different elements and the flow, get the flow right and move things around.

The the White board is search a valuable to all, then take a couple pictures that, when i'm happy with that, put IT down on the desk. And these are just bullet points, and then just turn through and just turn through and nothing feels Better than, you know, researching and sharing information. And and I been, as you did you know, a group writing papers and IT hard.

And I like the friction of a like, you know, I want to get up and use about when I was in college, I was trying to make up deficiencies from my lack of attendance in high school, so much so that I, I would say the time I wouldn't let myself get up to use the bathroom, even never ran an accident. But I was, you know, means that I listen to music, classical music, granted, few other things, bob Dylan maybe thrown in there and just study and and IT IT felts. And then you hit the two, our market you're in pain in and then you get like he's about something like that felt s so good.

There's something about the human brain that likes these kind of friction points and working through them and he just have to work through them. So yeah productive and and my life is arranged around IT. And you know that's been a bit of a barrier to personal life at times, but my life been arranged around IT.

I've set up everything so that I can learn more, teach more um including you know some of my home life and um but I do you know still watch chip empire still get down to watch chm APP in part look the great joe drama right clash over my favourite massacre eros s he said, you know that's famous drama, quote, no input, no output. So you need you need experience. You need outside things in order to Foster the the process but yeah, just know to the ground, stone man and I know that and that's what i'm happy to do with my life.

I don't think anyone should do that just because, but this is how i'm showing up. And you know you'll like me then grow where they say swipe laugh. I know I have not on the apps, dating apps, so that's the other thing I ep waiting for when listens to next room and podcasts, a checked x on like hindred bomblets or whatever IT is. But I don't even know those that are fuel. I know what what are the .

apps now i've i've never using up and I I those file troubles some how little information is provided on apps.

They are the ones that are like a stocked lake like ria, you know, like that. Like they sort of like companies will actually fill them .

with people .

that look a certain way.

And what you do, they are.

oh yeah so what he said.

oh, that's a hard break within that well.

I you know i'm guilty of of liking real human interaction.

Have you tried A I interaction?

But I have a feeling you're onna convince me too.

One day you have also struggled finishing projects that are new. There are something new like for example, some one of the things that really struggled finishing is something that in russian that requires translation and over double in all that kind stuff. The other projects that be working out for like over at least a year, often on but trying to finish something we've talked about the past is i'm still on IT, a project on hit there in world war two. I've written so much about IT and as you don't know why I can finish, I have trouble like really I think i'm terrified being in front .

of the camera like this.

like this or so, actually solo, basically.

So and seriously, because we've done this before, right? Clean dust study missions. Or i'm happy to sit in the corner and work on my book or do something if you want to IT feels .

good feeling body else. What do you? I mean, how do you don't seem to, you seem to, to have been fearless to just sit in front of the camera by yourself to do the ephod?

Yeah, he was weird. I mean, that the first year, the podcast I just spilled out of me I was just I had all that stuff I was so excited about have been talking everyone and who would listen and anyone um even who they run away I keep talking you know before there was ever a camera wasn't on social media twenty thousand and I post a little bit twenty twenty years you know they are going on pocket yeah I had so I just I just discussed and delighting this office like a car rythm.

I want to tell you about this stuff. I just felt as the opportunity and just let IT burst. And then as we got them into topics that a little bit further away from my my own home knowledge, you know that I still get super excited about IT music in the brain episode.

Have been researching for a while now just so hydeman about IT. So so interesting is only facet singing versus improvisational excuse me, music vers i'm listening to music versus um learning music. I mean that IT just goes on on. There's just so much that so interesting I just can't get enough and and I think I don't know you put a Cameron from me I sort forget about IT uh and i'm just china just teach yes.

that's a different that's interesting. I mean, I make the camera maybe I need to find that joys well but like for me a lot of the joys in the in the writing and the camera, there's something.

well, the best lecturer, as you know, and you're in phenomenal lecture, so you embody this as well. But the when I teach at stanford, was directing this course in neurology, y neuroscience and for medical students. And I noted that the best lectures would come in and they're teaching the material from a place of deep understanding, but they're also experiencing IT as a first time learner as at the same time.

So this of everybody, the delighted IT, but also the authority over the authority, but the mastery of the material. And it's really the delightful that the students are linking on to. And of course, if they need and deserve the best accurate material so they have to know what they are talking about but um yeah just tap into that energy of learning and loving IT and people along for the ride or yeah I get accused of being long winded, but you know things get taken out of context that leads to greater misunderstanding.

And also, I look at this in a confirm the image of three dead advisers, three, all three. So I don't know when the rappers coming for me, i'm doing my best to stay alive a long time but when I A bullet or a bossa cancer, whatever, or just old age, I mean, i'm trying to get IT all out there. It's best I can and and if that means you have to hit pausing, come back at IT or too late like this seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

I'm not going to go um go longer than I need to and i'm trying to shut them them up but again, that's kind of how I show up like tim armstrong will say about writing songs as do you right every day, everyday. Is rick ever stop creating no is driver stop preparing for comedy or you ever stopping to think about world issues and technology and who you can talk to? I mean, IT seems to me you've always got a plan.

The insight, the the thing I love about your podcast the most, to be honest, these days is the surprise of, like, I know who else gonna there. It's almost like, like I get a little nerve, sly, excited here about when a new episode comes exit. No idea, no idea.

And you know I mean, I have some guesses, but when you told me during the break and you you got some people were just like, wow likes is went there, awesome, can't wait click. I think that's really cool like you constantly surprising people so you're doing IT. So well, like it's such a high level.

And I think it's also important for people to understand that what you're doing lacks there's no precedent for sure. There have been interviews before, there have been podcasts before, their discussions before, but not like how many of europeans can you look to, to find out how best to do the content like yours. Zero, there's one peer you and so you know that should give you great peace and great excitement because your your pioneer here, you're literally the tip of sphere.

I I don't want to take an unnecessary tension, but I I think this might thread together two of the things that we even talking about, which are, I think of pretty key important one is romantic relationships in the other creative process in the work and and is again as something I learned from rick, but that i've come back and forth on, and that I think is worth a elaborating on, which is earlier were saying, you know, the best relationship is going to be one where you, where IT brings you peace. I think peace also can be translated to, among other things, lack of distraction. So when you are with your partner, can you really focus on them in the relationship? Can you not be distracted by things that you're upset about from their pastor, from your past with them or there? And of course, the same is true for them ideally will feel that way towards you.

They can really focus also when you're not with them, can you focus on your work? Can you not be worried about what are not there? Okay, because you trust that they're adult and they can handle things where they will reach out if they need things. Um they're going to communicate their needs like an adult you know not creating messes just to get attention and things like that or or disappearing, you know for that matter. So peace and focus are intimately related in distraction is the enemy of peace and focus. So there's something there, I believe um because with people that have the strong general drive and want to be productive in their home life, in the sense of a rich family life or partner life, whatever that is, and in their work life, you have the ability really drop in in the work and like, okay, you might have that sounds like I hope they are okay or you know need to check my phone or something but just not like were good. So so peace and focus I think can be present are so key and that it's key at every level of romantic relationship from certainly presence in focus you everything from sex to listening to um to you know raising a family to tending to the house um and in work is absolutely critical so I think that those things are kind of mire images of the same thing and their both the important reflections of the other and when you start to disunion workers not going well, then the relations, the focus on relationship can suffer .

and rice versa is very important that is how incredibly wonderful IT could be to have a person in your life that kind of enables that creative focus yeah and you .

supply the the peace and focus for their endeavors, whatever those might be. I mean that that symmetry there um because clearly people have different needs and the need to just really trust you know like when lex is working, he's in his generation mode and and I know he's good. And so then they I feel sure theyve contributed to that.

But then also what you're doing is supporting them in whatever way happens to be. And I think that sometimes you'll see that people pair up along creative creative or musical musical or um computer scientists. But I think again, going back to this county episode on on relationships is that the superficial labels are less important that seems than just the desire to create that kind of homelife and relationship together and as a consequence, the work motion for some people that both people aren't working and sometimes they are bt. I think I think that's the good stuff, you know, and and I think that's the big learning in all of IT, is that the further along I go with each birthday, I guarantee you can be like what I want, a simpler and simpler and harder and harder to to create, but also worth IT the .

inner and the outer piece. It's been over two years. I think I since castle passed away.

he still tears me up. I tried about him today ced IT .

about today. It's .

proportional, little love. But yes, i'll cry about enough. I think IT wasn't putting him down IT wasn't the act of him dying any of that? Actually, that was a beautiful experience. I didn't expect IT to be, but I was in my place when I was living in to panga during the pandemic where we watched the forecast. I did IT at home and he hated the that.

So I did at home and I was he gave out this huge right at the end and I could just tell he'd been in just not a lot pain, fortunately, but he had just been working so hard just to move at all. And the crazy thing happened, like I was, I believe I ve never had an experience like this. I expect my heart to break that.

I ve felt a broken heart before. I felt IT Frankly when my parents split. I felt IT when Harry shot himself. I I felt IT when barber died.

I can felt that when know when ben went um so as well and so many friends like way too many friends i've mean end of seventeen my friends arn king john, john y fair, john echo berry, stomach cancer, suicide, fatal, wow all enough breaking a week and I just remember thinking like what a but when costs like and you just heartbreaking and you just Carry that and it's like but and that's just A A short list, you know and I don't say that for a sob stories just for a guy that wasn't in the military, didn't group in the inner city, like unusual number of that's like close people. When costello went, the crazy thing happened. My heart warmed up, like heat IT up.

And I wasn't on M D. M. A, and I wasn't. I I was just just the moment he went and just went.

And I like, what the hell is this? And was just IT was like a supernatural experience to me. I just never had that put my grandfather in the ground.

I was a power of the funeral. Like, done that more time. And i'd like to to ever, ever done IT.

And he just heat IT up. We cost on. I thought that is. And IT was almost like, and you can make up these we make up these stories about what he is but he was almost like, he was like, alright, I had to be careful because I walk ry, I hear and I don't want to um is almost like he was like, all that effort as I put in putting so much effort in two music, are you get that back? IT was like the giant for going to thank you and IT was incredible, you know, and i'm not embarrassed, shed tear to about if I have to like, as a holy shit like that, how close I wasted in what do you think what .

do you think you can find that kind of love again?

I don't know. I mean when and excuse me for for welling up but he was just, I mean, it's frequent dog great. I get IT. But for me IT was um the first real home I ever had um but when costello win, IT was like we'd had this home in to panna.

We had set IT up and like and he was just so happy there and I think he just knows he was like this weird like Victory slash massive loss, like, like we did in eleven years, if we can did everything, everything to make him as comfortable as possible. He was super loyal, beautiful animal, but also just funny and fun. And and I was like, I did IT like, like, you know, I gave us much of myself to this being as a human.

I felt I could without making IT, you know, like detracting from the rest of my life. And he loved. And so I don't know when I think about barba specially um I well up and I and it's hard for me, but I mean I talked to her before he died and that was a brutal conversation.

Say goodbye someone especially with kids and um that was hard um I think that really um flip to switching me where I like I I always knew I wanted kids. I say I want kids. I want a lot of kids that flip to switching me.

I I want IT my own kids. You might be able to find that kind of love. Yeah, I think because he was the care taking IT wasn't about what he gave me all that time in the more I could take care of them, seem happy, the Better I felt that is crazy.

And I am, I don't know. So I miss you everyday, everyday. I miss everyday.

You're you got a heart that so full of love, I can wait for you to have kids, be a father.

Yeah, I can't wait to the same. You know, we got a or have and then now I will .

still beat you to IT. As I told you minute s before.

I think you should absolutely have kids. I mean, look at the people in our life because we're kind of that if you kiss, you haven't realize that already like where the the Younger of the podcasts ers, but you know like joe and Peter and sega and you know the rest right there, like the like the tribal elders, right and and we're you know we're not the Youngest in the crew, but if you look at all those guys, they all have kids.

They all adore their kids and their kids bring tremendous meaning to their life. Like be we'd be more on if you know if you didn't go often start a family. I didn't start up yeah start a family um and yeah I think that's a goal. I mean, I think the kids of the goals that's one .

kids not only make them their life more joyful and brings love to their life is also makes more productive, makes some Better people. All that I got, it's kind of of this yeah.

I think that's what costello wanted. I think I have the story in my head that he was so py, okay, I take this like, yeah and does he get up and lord knows, don't fuck this up.

brothers is increase recipe you, we will talk often and each other is podcast for many years to come. Yes, many, many years to come. Thank you.

Thanks for for having me on here. And there are no words how much I appreciate your example in your friendship. So love you, brother, will you do?

Thanks for listening to this conversation with Andrew huberman. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. Now let me leave you some words from Albert o.

In the mr. winter. I found there was within me. An intensive summer and that makes me happy for IT says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me, there's something stronger, something Better pushing right back. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.