Next-gen Tesla in 2025, TSLA earnings, Porsche Macan EV unveiled, and more
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Welcome to a new episode of the Electric Podcast. I am Fred Lambert, your host, and as usual, I'm joined by Seth Wintraub. How are you doing today, Seth? I'm good.

all right we have plenty to talk about this week there was a tesla earnings there was a lot of uh new unveilings for for early in the year like that we have the new mac and ev to discuss after years of teasing we finally have all the details we also had the test drive obviously from set but uh now we have like all the specs and uh and do we have i'm not sure we have pricing but we'll see about that

and a few more news items to discuss. But before we do that, let me just say a quick thanks to our sponsor for today's episode, Upway, a leading online e-bike provider carrying the broadest selection of brand new and certified pre-owned models. We're going to have a little bit more to say about them later on the show. They always have some great deals because of their very cool business model. All right, let's start with the Tesla earnings. So Tesla is by far the biggest business

electric vehicle only company in the world and therefore the earnings are very important because it's kind of a model of how you can be profitable selling electric vehicles even though I know Tesla is not just an automaker and all that but for now

The vast majority of its revenue is driven by its electric vehicle sales. So it's still very much on a financial basis, an electric automaker. And though its financial health is very important for the industry and to show that other automakers, they can,

I mean, it doesn't necessarily show other like legacy automakers that they can transition to electric vehicles because it's being an all electric car company from the ground up is different than transitioning a major car company that sells ICE vehicles into EV. But at least it shows that if they can manage into a transition,

they can be a profitable, altruistic company. And it's also a good model for EV startups out there like Rivian, Lucid, Fiskars, and name it. All right. So in terms of the earnings, the expectation from Wall Street was $25.6 billion in revenue and $0.73 per share. Tesla actually delivered on $0.73 per share. That's a non-GAAP.

Testa ended up missing the guidance, but missing the expectation, sorry, by a little bit at 71 cents per share and 25.1 billion instead of about 500, half a billion dollar off on revenue. So a decent miss.

Slight miss. It's no biggie. But the actual GAAP earnings was like super high, but that was because of an accounting change that happened that ended up giving this an actual $2.27 per share. But we always use the non-GAAP because that's what most of the analysts use in terms of prediction because it's more representative of Tesla's business, really. So still a marginally profitable company, but...

The gross margin per vehicle is unsurprisingly down, but not that much. It's now sitting at 17.6% down from 17.9% the previous quarter. So we're not comparing year over year here because obviously Tesla's pricing has changed so much over the last two years that we need to just compare like quarter to quarter. And the cost per car has also gone down significantly.

So that's a good sign, but not fast enough to compensate for the price cut because obviously the gross margins were affected. So I think that's kind of the bulk of like in terms of actual revenue, but Tesla is still adding to its giant cash pile. Now I think it's sitting at 20. I don't know if I can see from here. Can I not just blow this up from here? I might have to do this.

Tesla is now sitting on... No, I'm sorry. They don't put it here. They put it further down, right? Some cool pictures with the earnings every time. It's now sitting on a sweet little cash position of $29 billion. Is it not nice? A lot of cash. All right. With all that, with the slight miss and everything, Tesla stock...

Didn't like their earnings and like the earnings and like what they heard from the conference call when I get into the conference call. But first, we're going to discuss, I think, what was probably the biggest impact on the stock. The stock was down 12% yesterday, the first day of opening after the release of the financial results.

And I think that was the guidance for 2024 because Tesla is not really big on guidance for a company. Normally, most companies will give you some clear guidance quarter to quarter, at least on a yearly basis. Tesla, last year, they gave you a guidance of like 1.8 million vehicles at some point into the year, not early into the year. For the most part, early into the year, it sticks to its roughly 50% annual growth rate for vehicle deliveries. That's the only real thing that it gives you.

Now 50% average in real growth rate that can be in that one year it's way up 50% and the other year it's way down. And they framed it with their guidance for this year that it's going to be way down this year, which we kind of knew because Tesla doesn't have really the vehicle lineup right now to get a big boost.

But in the shareholders letter, the company said, our company is currently between two major growth waves. The first one began with the global expansion of the Model 3Y platform. And the next one, we believe, will be initiated by the global expansion of the next generation vehicle platform. Global expansion, I think, is an important phrase here. In 2024, our vehicle volume growth rate may be increased.

notably lower than the growth rate achieved in 2023 as our teams work on the launch of the next generation vehicles, vehicle at Gigafactory Texas. All right. So a lot of impact here. I think obviously the growth rate may be notably lower than the growth rate achieved in 2023. I think that is the most impactful thing here in terms of the stock price.

Tesla's growth rate in terms of vehicle deliveries in 2023 was 38%. So already significantly down from the 50% average. And now it's going to be lower than that this year. Notably lower. How much does that mean? I don't know. I'm curious over the next few days, we're most likely going to see the expectation from analysts. But personally, I would be kind of surprised to see more than 20% growth rate.

Like if Tesla can get 20%, which is a lot, 20% is, you know, 350,000 vehicles, something like that, more than they did ever last year. Like where did they get those 350,000 vehicles? So that's the question. Yeah.

I don't know. Do you have an opinion on that set? Yeah. So, I mean, it's kind of a big deal. And I guess that's why the stock's kind of tanking a little bit. But, you know, Tesla's going from this like hyper growth, you know, where they were growing 50% year over year to a little bit less at 38% and then anticipating 20%. And 20% is still, as you said, impressive growth. It's, you know, if Ford or GM said, hey, we're going to grow 20% next year, everybody would be loving life.

But it doesn't... Or we'll be calling BS. Or we're calling BS. But if... So Tesla is no longer a 50% year-over-year growth engine right now, right? And that's probably because they're ramping up Cybertruck and they're doing things besides building a lot more cars at the same factories. They have to open in Mexico and whatever. So...

the thing is the value of the company you know if it's growing 20 year over year versus 50 year over year that you know that extrapolates in a much different place for you know these Traders so instead of trading like you know Tesla has traded um it it may be a less valuable company and and I'm saying you know less valuable like

Apple, you know, Apple hopes to go 20% year over year in growth. Apple's a great company. Everybody loves Apple. But, you know, Tesla made $10 billion last year, right? Apple made $100 billion last year. If they're growing at the same rate and they're, you know, theoretically Tesla should be worth a tenth of Apple and Apple's worth, you know, $3 trillion now. Maybe Tesla's really worth, you know, $300 billion.

billion, which would still make it the biggest car company in the world, even though, you know, Toyota and, yeah, I guess VW make a ton more cars. But, you know, maybe we need to re kind of jigger our expectation for the Tesla stock price here. Maybe it's not a, you know, $500,000, sorry, $500 billion company. Maybe it's a $300 billion company. I don't know.

I mean, there's still so many growth opportunities. I mean, the FSD thing is kind of out the window, but the battery stuff could, as Elon has said in the past, the battery stuff could be huge. There's still tons of opportunity out there, still a lot of growth opportunities. But do you think Tesla can grow less or more than 20% this year?

I mean, it could certainly grow more than 20% this year, but if that's what they're forecasting, I wouldn't bet on it. Yeah. I mean, they're not forecasting anything. It's just notably lower than 38%. That's the only thing they really said. Because

Obviously, the Cybertruck is the only real new vehicle in there and if they deliver like 50,000, it would be like most likely pretty good. So you only have a fraction of what you need to achieve 20% right there. I think the Model 3 is probably where they have the most growth opportunity in 2024 versus 2023 because

It looks like Tesla delivered like fewer than half a million Model 3 in 2023 and they delivered 1.2 million Model Ys. So...

That's probably some balancing to do here that could work. But yeah, 20%, I still think would be like very good news. Because let me share this real quick here when we talk about what you just said about growth at Tesla. Because if you look at the year-over-year growth, even though Tesla delivered a lot more vehicles year-over-year in Q4 2023 versus Q4 2022,

Revenue basically was unchanged from automotive business, from delivering those cars. Tesla made $21.3 billion in 2022 Q4 from selling vehicles and 21.5, 1% growth, even though the vehicle delivery growth, which should be... And that's because of the price drops? Yeah. Vehicle delivery here grew 20%.

So vehicle delivery grew 20% year over year, but revenue grew 1%. That's because gross margins are down 23% year over year. Now, on the other side of growth that's interesting, energy generation storage revenue grew 10% year over year, which is significant. But I think there's room to do even better than that because obviously,

there's still a ramp up of a later up factory. And then you have the new mega factory for mega packs in China. And when those two are running together full capacity, which should be probably next year because of China is like quite recent, but still, so you should see an impact in 2024. And that's going to, that's going to probably accelerate a lot because then Tesla is going to have a, going to be able to focus the,

the production of each of those plans for projects closer. So it's going to reduce the transit time for all these projects, which can be quite long. And that should get things rolling a lot faster. So something to keep an eye on that. And then the service and other revenues grew 27%. So that's very major. And also, I think Tesla confirmed that they are now significantly profitable on that. So Tesla specifically highlighted. It would be nice for Tesla to break down, especially...

With Elon saying, it's an AI robotic company. It's like 12 startups in one. It is that. I agree with him. But they don't give you a lot of transparency to all those different business aspects. So I would like Tesla to break down its supercharger business. That would be so helpful. I would like to see how the supercharger business is profitable. Tesla could maybe give a little insight for these other companies.

charging station operators that are not making any money right now because that's the i made it sound like it was profitable on that front and then obviously they're just selling parts for its car that's always a profitable business that's how gm makes a lot of money um and then um and then uh selling used cars obviously that's also a big part of this uh so i would like to have a breakdown of this two billion dollars now that this is making a quarter from all of these uh different businesses do you think uh them

Broadcasting that those numbers would help the stock price? Do you think analysts and retail investors are... I don't know if it would help it, but it would certainly help the market better understand Tesla. Now, does that help the stock if you have a better understanding of Tesla or does it not help the stock? Yeah, that's a good point. If you want to be transparent, like Yvonne says and everything, I think that would make sense.

Alright, let's move back to this and then back up here. Alright, got it. Alright, now let's move to some of the things that Elon said during the call because most of the news came from that really. First off, the number one question upvoted by shareholders to be asked on the call was,

a timeline for the next generation EV. So we had a timeline from... Routers actually released an article earlier in that way. I think the same day, actually, of the earnings call, they claimed that supply chain sources said that it would be in mid-2025 that a car would come. Now, Elon on the call said that the internal timeline for Tesla is actually late 2025, and he was being his usual...

he came with all the usual warnings that he's quite a bit optimistic with timelines and that he's sometimes wrong with timelines and all that so obviously take that with a grain of salt but right now tesla is aiming for late 2025 on that first next-gen vehicle which is either going to be like that robo taxi which this is an early concept that was released as part of the um

Elon Musk approved biography. And the other one is the $25,000 Tesla that we've been calling Model 2, Model E, whatever it's going to be. But the cheapest Tesla yet, which is going to be based on that unbox manufacturing process that was unveiled at the investor day last year.

So now we have a timeline for that, and that's late 2025, so most likely 2026. And so that gives us basically the...

The timeline between those two growth period now, like we just at the tail end of the first big growth period. And now it looks like it won't be until 2026. And even then, there's going to be a production ramp and all that. So we might be in a big lull, a bigger lull than I thought we'd be in with Tesla. So interesting.

Yeah, it might be time for some other automakers to pick up the slack. Notably, Volvo, I think, with the EX30 is going to be a hit this year. Yeah, especially with the backing of the Chinese, too. They could probably get into higher volume. I haven't seen anything big in terms of numbers so far, but there's certainly plenty of vehicle programs out there that could go big like Tesla, but...

No one has the guts that Tesla has at this front in terms of planning for just crazy volume other than BYD and some of the Chinese, of course. But for them, they just don't come to North American market just yet.

All right. The second most upvoted question was they wanted Elon to explain his comments. And more specifically, they asked – shareholders, they asked the question the most – it was the biggest softball that you could ask that question possible. They said, should we be concerned about Elon asking for 25% voting control or he would move his AI product to –

is startup rather than than Tesla

So that was the second most upvoted question. And so Elon addressed it on the call. But yeah, he didn't really address the question. So let me actually read his comments here because I thought this would be very important. The shareholders have heard the concerns. They agree with the concerns. They upvoted it. It was the second most upvoted question. So there is concern within the Tesla retail shareholder community. And this was Elon's response. Let me explain why, Elon.

What my concern is here, which is that, you know, I put the direct transcript on this, so I'm going to talk like Elon, basically. I see a path to creating an artificial, intelligent, and roboting juggernaut of truly immense capability and power. And my concern would be, I don't want to control it, but if you have so little influence over the company at this stage, that I could sort of be voted out by some sort of random shareholder advisory firm.

And then from there, you continue to lose the plot and now focus on those advisory firms. And we had a lot of challenges with institutional shareholder services, ISS. I called them HiSYS, Glass Lewis, which is an ISS.

which there's a lot of activists that basically infiltrate those organizations and have, you know, strange idea about what you should be done. So, you know, he talks like a hockey player. So, you know, I want to have enough to be influential. Like if you could do a Zool class talk, that would be ideal. I'm not looking for additional economics. I just want to be an effective steward of a very powerful technology.

And the reason I just sort of roughly pick approximately 25% was that's not so much that I can control the company, even if I go bonkers. And if I'm like mad, they can throw me out, but it's enough that I have a strong influence. That's what I'm aiming for, a strong influence, but not control. If there's some way to achieve that, that would be great.

So there's nothing on PAC here because first of all, he never addressed the real concerns here, which is the conflict of interest with XAI and Tesla and even possibly a breach of industry duty because he said that he would be willing to divert products, AI products from Tesla to XAI. He didn't say XAI, but he did.

He inferred it to his comment because XCI is a startup for artificial intelligence. So he didn't address that at all. So right there, his comment is worthless. He brings up, again, this idea of like, oh, it's not about the money. It's about the voting control. Okay, whatever. It's still going to be money because it doesn't seem that there's a path to achieve a dual-class voting system post-ITO. So it is going to be money.

So now why? So he only focused on the why he wants the 25% control. And that is to get more control, or as you say, not really control, even though he says control, but then he's like, he grabs himself by, I just want some influence. And then it's because he fears activists taking control to ISS services

So I didn't even think of that at first. Like I thought we got the special podcast a few weeks ago when those comments first came out. And we came up with like, okay, we can take control of Tesla, some kind of hostile takeover. So maybe the Saudis, maybe a competing company like Apple, even though it's not Apple's MO at all. There's not a lot of entities that can take over a 600, well, used to be 600 two days ago, a billion dollar company.

So, who is he talking about really? Who's this threat that could take over Tesla? And now he's talking about ISS companies, which sure, Tesla had little toggles with ISS firms in the past. And they've tried like a bunch of initiatives to get passed by shareholders. And for the most part, they've been completely unsuccessful, even with Elon's current level of ownership over the company. So, yeah.

He's like extrapolating this very minor issue at Tesla right now that could become like super big. And I know he had concern with the IE and like what he calls the woke mind virus and filtrating these things.

organization using the ISS firm to become like basically shareholder activists, which is perfectly fine. Like this is why this whole system was put in place in the first place. Like, all right, you want to have some kind of impact on a company, become a shareholder, become a shareholder activist, use these kinds of services to have proxy shares, to vote on these initiatives. And

Tesla shareholders have shut down all those initiatives so far. So I really don't see this as a significant threat. AI or no AI, it doesn't like you can argue about the attention of those activists within the ISS community. I would never compare them to a terrorist organization, obviously. Like that's madness to do that. But I guess it was joking, whatever.

But even if you can challenge their intention, you cannot argue that their effectiveness is bad. Like they're just not effective at what they do, at least when it comes to Tesla. So for him to use that as an excuse of like even like now at 13% ownership, probably up to like 18% if he exercises shares, that's not a real problem. So it's not a great argument on Elon's front, I think. Anything to add on this, Seth?

Yeah, so I mean, he mentions that, it's funny, the reason I sort of just roughly picked 25% was that that's not so much that I can control the company, even if I go bonkers. Like, we are kind of seeing like the test of that bonkers, like what is that exactly bonkers and like how much, like it seems like his control is holding at the current bonkers level. That's such a good point.

So you're saying that he is putting a scenario in the future that we actually experiencing right now. And what he says could happen, which is you could still kick me out at 25%. We cannot kick him out now at 13%. Exactly. So his point is completely moved then. Yeah, he's proving his own point. I didn't even see it like that. Oh, that's good. That's gold right there. You should tweet that.

All right, let's move on from other things that Elon said that was sort of interesting. All right, this one. So one of the other top voted questions from shareholders was what was happening with those talks with other automakers about licensing full self-driving package, FSD package? So that's something that Elon first said in 2021. He said they were having tentative discussions with automakers.

And then last year, he also said again that he would be perfectly willing to license autopilot and full self-driving technology to other automakers. He says it's the way forward. And then when asked what happened with those conversations, he said this week, I really think a lot of car companies should be asking for FSD licenses. And we've had some tentative conversations. So again, confirming that. But I think they don't believe it's really quite yet.

I think that will become obvious probably this year.

This year, it's always going to be this year. This is hilarious. So we are a month into 2024 and we have already the prediction. So it's probably this year. Well, now he says probably at least. Before that, it was always just a few months ago. It was by the end of 2023. And it was like very likely or something like that that he used. Now it's like probably this year, just a month into the year.

And there's also no clear gold anymore. He did tweet yesterday something about things will go crazy at Tesla once we have unsupervised FSD-approved regulators. So at least I like that comment because now at least it shows that that's still the goal, that they're not going to move the goalposts again. And now FSD is just going to become the beta right now, which is just like us –

supplying that data for tesla and having some sort of useful features like uh autopark i guess which i use like twice a year but not the promise full self-driving beta we got this week we got the first few uh v12 fsd update being pushed to non-tesla employees so for a while now it was um

Only on the Tesla internal fleet, testing the V12. And for those who don't know, the V12 is the big rewrite removing 300,000 line of C++ code. Now it's end-to-end neural nets. Elon likes to say photon ends and controls out because before that, the neural nets were used for the computer vision and all that, but not for the vehicle controls, the vehicle behavior and all that.

Fortunately, they only released it to a handful of Tesla FSD beta testers like Omar, people that we don't really trust in terms of representing the FSD well, especially Omar even used a third-party system to get past the vehicle nag that they call it, the alerts and all that. So it's very not representative of the average use case.

But they haven't pushed it too far just yet. So far, what we see, we see what we expected from V12, which is more human-like behavior because they've been trained on human drivers, basically, instead of more like stern vehicle controls that are hard-coded by engineers. So that's good news. But also, it's still far from perfect, a lot of mistakes and all that.

It's still hard to see a clear path from FSD beta V12. Also, by the way, it is beta. So it was supposed not to be beta. Elon said that V12 would be released to customers as a non-beta update. Not that he said what that would mean anyway, but it is still marked as beta. Maybe with the broader release, I don't know, because like I said, it's only a few right now non-Tesla employees that have it. So maybe he said that the broader release would be coming in the next few weeks. So we'll be waiting for that.

But I can't wait to actually try it, give it a shot because I know in this article here, I got a lot of flack from Tesla. I found 500 comments on this. I stopped reading after the first 100 comments or so. The comments were going crazy on that post. People got quite mad for me and they said it's the last hope for self-driving at Tesla. It's probably my last hope. It's my last hope for Tesla to achieve self-driving on the current hardware.

Let's put it like that because I don't see anything else. The hardware is a big deal. Yeah, obviously Tesla could come out with another set of hardware and then improve again and probably achieve it at some point. I'm very confident that Tesla will figure it out at some point because they have some impressive technology. It's just that right now I don't see them closing the gap between what they have now and a full level 4 driving system.

Yeah, and Waymo has been driving their stuff around cities, like multiple, I don't know, four or five cities at this point. They have level four, what is it? I think it's level five, isn't it? Yeah, I think you're going to say they're not level four.

They have level four working. They've had it for years. It's on the roads. And of course, of course, that, you know, they have all this mapping to do and whatever. But we know it's attainable. Is it attainable with the current hardware? That's, you know, yet to be decided. But, you know, if Tesla keeps iterating its hardware, it's going to get to the point where Waymo is at some point, right? They have to.

The problem is that they don't even want to try something like Waymo does. I would be, even if you don't, you could geofence, I think they see it as a defeat if they do a geofence on something like Waymo. But maybe they could try a geofence without mapping. Just get a really good

with something that works in a specific area and show at least that you can do something like Waymo. Even if you geofence this without doing HD mapping of that geofence area, you just get real good in a specific area. But they don't seem to be there yet either, which is the real worrying part here. And everyone says like, oh, you cannot compare Tesla and Waymo. You can, like it's like close enough of like,

The thing that you want to achieve, the human goal is close enough. Yeah, and I think Waymo certainly intends to make their – I mean, they're saying like every new city they add, it becomes easier to map, to geofence, like all these things. This is how Waymo gets to the universal self-driving as well. Every city they add, it's easier. Maybe all of a sudden it's automated. They don't have to – it's all AI. Yeah.

It seems like Waymo's got a way to get there as well as Tesla. So I don't know why Tesla doesn't take some of those ideas like, hey, let's close in our test system and let it get smarter from the inside out instead of just throwing it all at it at once. Yeah.

I mean, there's no doubt that it's more impactful what Tesla is trying to do if they achieve it. Like it would be more impactful quicker. But yeah, but it doesn't mean that they are going to get there faster. So if they don't get there faster, then there's no benefit to it. So yeah, for me, the V12 is like my last hope because of hardware limitations, right?

And the fact that I don't see after this big rewrite, we're at the 12th version of this product. And they just redid everything too. Yeah. And I know it's a hard problem to solve. So I'm not saying like, ah, it's terrible. It's like, I just have less slack. I give less slack to a company when they already sold me the product like six years ago. So like, did you sell me the product six years ago? I'm allowed to complain that you haven't.

delivered on what you said you would. And so with this last product, the V12, the 12 version, a full rewrite, now we have the N2L neural nets. So now you just feed the best data you can to it to train it and hopefully it gets better fast. But probably by the end of the year. Probably by the end of the year.

All right. We have a little bit more to discuss, and then we're going to jump into your comments. So if you guys have any questions for us, you can put them in the comments section right now, and we'll get to them in about 15 or 20 minutes. So stay tuned for that. But before we continue with the few more news items we want to discuss, we're going to talk about Upway, our sponsor for this week's episode. All right. Today's episode is sponsored by Upway, a leading online e-bike provider carrying the broadest selection of brand new and certified pre-owned models.

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Yes, thank you. And I think that's the one that you said that also like become like more assembled in the average bike, right? A little bit. Yeah. Basically, you just have to screw on the handlebar and it's not even screwing on the handlebar. You're like just tightening the handlebar. Yeah. I mean, I wish they had like a similar company up here in Quebec like that. I would always go through that.

Because a lot of people, I mean, obviously, they take care of their e-bikes, their used bikes after, but the pre-owned, whatever they call it. But a lot of people, they like to switch up e-bikes. Some of them are not always super run down or anything like that. All right. I think we have one more. Oh, yeah. Like a quick look at the…

Model 3 refreshed performance. So we talked a few weeks ago about Tesla launching the Model 3 performance in, sorry, the Model 3 refreshed design in North America after launching it all the way last summer in Europe and Asia.

But it still doesn't have the performance version. The performance version is gone in all those markets. And we expect a new one to come. We had a few leaks over the last few months. Like we saw like this new like sports seat that appears to be designed for the Model 3. We saw a new badging. It looks like a plaid or Ludicrous badging. And now we see from kilowatts on X, they spotted this vehicle here in San Francisco. Right.

You can see it on this video. Still has camouflage on the front and back. And the reason we're saying it's a performance Model 3 Refresh is that you saw it briefly here on the side, but here you see the calipers, performance calipers. You know what's funny is the fact that it has camo on it,

probably brings more attention to it than if it was just riding around naked. Yeah. And you would think normally the performance version of the Model 3 compared to the other ones don't have exterior design changes other than the additional spoiler that you can attach to it. So there's no changes. Why, if you're already on Ville,

the Model 3 Island, why adding that? So people are speculating that the design might be different for the performance this time. So the front bumper looks like it has a little bit more aggressive front splitter here. So you see this is the regular Island Model 3 and the performance one looks to be different here on the side. So that might be some new hair intake for like brake cooling, which would make sense.

But yeah, I'm very curious to see if Tesla makes like... So if they do that, if they do new seat, new seat is also something new that you don't see for performance version of Tesla vehicles. So new seat, new bumper. Like if there's a few things that are different, maybe we get like a bigger upgrade with the Performance Model 3, which would be interesting because even though the Plaid Model S is obviously Tesla's like top performance vehicle right now, a lot of people don't like it as a performance vehicle just because of the weight. It's a super heavy car. It's huge.

Not that the Model 3 is a light car either, but it's much lighter. And with that, more fun to drive. I know I love my Model 3 performance for that. It's a lot lighter. Obviously, every electric car that has this kind of power just feels light sometimes on the straight line. But when you're actually doing some aggressive driving, it can feel heavy. But the Model 3 feels a lot less heavy than the Model S.

So maybe we get a new multi-performance that becomes like the new top performance vehicle for Tesla until the next-gen Roadster comes in 2036. 2036. You said dirty. A thousand years from now. Drive the Roadster on Mars. All right. The Porsche Macan EV is finally fully unveiled.

Oh, my God. We've been waiting for this. I mean, we knew this was coming since the Taycan was released, really. I think I remember at the launch of the Taycan, we were already talking about the Macan because the Macan is Porsche's most popular vehicle. So like, all right, let's make this electric and have some real volume. But it was delayed basically every year for the last five years, four years, something like that.

And now we have the fully unveiled design here. Can I click on that? Well, that's making some issues sometimes with these galleries here. But you can get a pretty good look from this. All right. So we have the European spec for the car. So European spec is up to 402 horsepower, 300 kilowatts. We have 479 pounds per foot torque.

with overboost, not sure what overboost is, up to 381 miles, that's 613 kilometers of WLTP range. So we should get over 300 miles of EPA on this thing, which is real nice. Meanwhile, the Macan Turbo boost up to... Okay, so that's for the regular Macan and then you have the Macan Turbo boost.

630 horsepower, 470 kilowatts of power, 0 to 62, so that's 100 kilometers per hour in 3.3 seconds. That's fast. Yeah. What else do we have? So the Turbo has a little bit less range at 367 miles, 591 kilometers, but still, that's also probably going to be over 300 miles.

And Porsche is known for having like, they are pretty conservative on that front. I don't know about the WLTP, but EPA, we had some good results, right? With the Taycan. Right. Yeah. Taycan was always over the EPA. Which is very good for range anxiety. The top speed, 136 miles per hour, 220 kilometers an hour. And that gets up for the turbo to 161 miles per hour, 260 kilometers an hour.

So, yeah, the first PPE vehicle from Porsche. And maybe the last. All these are enabled by 100 kilowatt-hour battery pack, 95 kilowatt-hour usable. In terms of dimension, like how does that compare to Model Y? It's pretty close. Yeah, that's a big battery pack to fit in there. Yeah.

like now now I'm not surprised at all that it gets that kind of range with a hundred kilowatt batch back yeah I mean it's it's kind of like a Model Y on steroids yeah it's half the interior feel because uh so they had I mean when I was in it they had yeah it's kind of frustrating because like we keep getting drip drop tons of information from Porsche but like so here's here's an example um

We got yesterday or the day before they sent, hey, we have an embargo. We weren't going to give you all this stuff. I'm like, okay. And then between the time that I signed the embargo and they actually delivered the information, which is basically these pictures, Peter found some guy who tweeted out a bunch of these pictures and

and I hadn't received it yet, and they got pissed at me. So they were like, hey, you posted the pictures. I was like, you didn't give us anything yet. Like, I'm not breaking any embargoes. Like, this is a guy, and, you know, Peter basically just embedded a tweet that had four pictures on it. So they were pissed, and I was like, all right, whatever, I don't care. So it's just frustrating because, you know, there is like, hey, give us a drive. Give us, you know, an hour with this thing.

let it, you know, they, they basically put us in the passenger seat and took us on the track, which was crazy. And then, you know, off road, which is like a dirt, you know, gravel road, but

it's just frustrating because like i really wanted to try this car out and they're they're just you know throwing garbage at us and it's you know it's really frustrating because i think this is going to be a really important car really amazing car i mean it's porsche's best seller ben mccann and kyan are the bit you know the best sellers for porsche they they do well internationally obviously the uh u.s and north america is uh you know suv heavy so they're gonna love this

Let's get it in the car and take it for a ride. It's just frustrating. Yeah, I completely agree. I'm going to be checking out the PPE on all these side of things too. So I'm next month going to Munich. So not next month.

March. We are in January right now. In March, I'm going to be checking out Audi's first PPE car on their side and diving into their technology on that front. So I'll try to get some information on what happened on that front and why there was so much issues bringing this to production and all this secrecy and all that. Obviously, that's going to be from Audi's side of things, not Porsche, but they do share that new PPE platform.

All right, the Ticam had one of the biggest seller is that charging speed was real nice. And that also come to the Mac and with the DC fast charging up to 270 kilowatts, charged from 10% to 80%, which is a nice use case in around just 21 minutes. So that's, that's about as nice as it gets like you're good with that. Like there's no there's no problem with that.

At 400-volt station, high-voltage switch split the battery into two for both rated at 400 volts for efficient charging. So they do have 800-volt system in there, but they have this split charging for 400 volts, which is interesting technology. All right. We have the dimension and everything on the articles if you want to check that out. We have a nice 0.25 drag coefficient on this thing, which is pretty good for an SUV.

Okay, that's what I'm looking for. So I'm going to enter your pictures here since Seth drove that car and didn't even see that. They sent us a rendering afterwards. Yeah. This is what you could have seen if you lifted the curtain. Let me bring this up bigger here like that. Okay.

So yeah, something very familiar interior when it comes to a Porsche. You always have the classic clock in the middle here. Full length screens from the instrument cluster all the way to the front passenger screen. Yes, you still have plenty of analog control on top of the touchscreen. That's a classic for our friends at Porsche. Let's take a quick look here at the trunk space. So nothing huge.

but still decent yeah it looks very model y-ish yeah it looks a little bit smaller than my wife to me to be honest and i wouldn't be too surprised especially if like the batch pack is so huge uh and then um but that's just from me hiding it from you and then you have the back seat here which looks very nice looks like plenty of headroom uh not

I actually never been in a Mac-in, I think, in my life. But the shape of the vehicle does seem to fit well for a backseat space, especially for the headspace, I should say. Yeah, I mean, it's a great experience inside. Oh, we have pricing for the Mac-in?

Yeah, I mean, this is kind of what they were hinting at in Germany. But it's in the middle. You know, it's not a super expensive $100,000 Porsche. So these are still a price that we exchange to US dollars for Europe, are they? Yeah.

No, I think they actually have U.S. prices. Okay, these are U.S. pricing. Okay, starting under $80,000 at $78,800. And it's an SUV, so you theoretically could get... Yeah, but it's not going to be built in America, though. Right, right. I mean, if you lease it, then probably you can get around that, I guess. Yep.

The Turbo will start at $105,000 because it is a performance vehicle. So not cheap, but also not ridiculously expensive for the base version, which gives you more range than the Turbo version. I don't know how many people... The Mac-N starts a lot cheaper than that. So that's always the problem with...

with you going with an electric, making an electric version of an existing vehicle for an automaker. So the Mac and price in the U S is starting at $62,000. So it is like $15,000 more expensive, but you get a bigger car. I think, I think you do get a much better car. And then when you look at the gas savings over years, I don't know what's the fuel efficiency on the Mac and, but I have a feeling it's not that super efficient.

All right. Speaking of electric SUV, we got an up-close look at the Lucid Gravity. So our own electric scooter. And that's not...

A scooter that we sell, but it's our scooter doll. One of our correspondents based out of the Midwest, but a world traveler to say the least. Checked out, went to Arizona to Lucid's factory for an event. And they showed the Gravity, which is a very important car for the company. And I don't know. I have my doubts about the Gravity sometimes when I look at it, especially the profile. Yeah, it kind of looks like a wagon. Yeah.

which is not popular in the US, but could find a nice market in Europe maybe, which I know Lucid is kind of marketing itself as like the way it markets itself could be popular in Europe. That's an interesting little, what do you call that? Like a little rug for your front rug. Yeah, I guess it's for sitting. It's like a chair. Yeah, a little bench. Yeah.

Do we have the specs on this? Oh, yeah. So that's a nice third row view here. I do like the design of that second row too. Especially for kids, it looks perfect, that third row. Oh, that was Scooter sitting in. Scooter is 5'11". I mean, I'm not going to say that does great legroom, but he does fit. That's on the third row. Yeah, if it's for a quick transfer from the airport or something like that, you could fit five people in the back of this. Yeah.

I'm not mad at it. Like I said, it's just the... Oh, you still have a little space in the trunk too when you have the backseat, the third row backseat. It's just the profile of it that... That was not it. Yeah, it's here. The profile, I don't know, maybe with the trunk down, because I know that it's a giant opening that they have here. Could be a better look, but it just doesn't work for me in terms of an SUV.

Anyway, I wished him the best of luck because they need this. They need this to work. They need the gravity to work, absolutely, because the air was kind of a flop, just...

It's not too bad, honestly, but in terms of volume, it just never reached the volume that it needed to. The timing wasn't great, obviously, with the pricing and then the interest rates coming in, the monthly payments on that thing were quite expensive. And the sedans are just not very popular anymore.

in the US. So Lucid is a US company. So they started out in the US. Now they try to divert some volumes in Europe to help, but it's just, it's not doing great right now. So they need an SUV, which is much more popular in North America to succeed. We are hoping that the gravity is going to be it. We'll see. That thing is not coming until next year anyway, right? Yep.

Another electric SUV. So it was the week for the unveiling of the electric SUV. We have the on-the-prologue. We have all the design unveil. We already had a pretty good look at the design, but now we have EPA and pricing on this. So it gets up to 296 miles in EPA range, which is nice. Solid. Yeah. So that's for the four-wheel drive. Sorry, forward-wheel drive. Really? They're going with a forward-wheel drive on this? Yeah.

Is GM also going with four-wheel drive on their vehicles? They have some with front-wheel drive. Yeah. The Equinox is front-wheel drive. I don't know about the Equinox. I know the Blazer has an option to go front-wheel drive. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I guess the Blazer is pretty similar to that.

So yeah, the EX four-wheel drive is $296,000. You also have the Touring version at $296,000 with four-wheel drive, but the EX can come in all-wheel drive and that drops down to 281 miles of range. Same for the Touring. And then you have an Elite version at $273,000. I assume that thing has like bigger wheels or something. Well, it drops the range. Pricing starts at $49,000 and goes up to $60,000 for the Elite version. But you can get an all-wheel drive version

Honda Prologue for just short of $52,000, which is nice. That's a nice option. What else can we tell you about this? 288 horsepower. That's for the all-wheel drive. Okay. So nothing crazy. 212 for the forward wheel drive. That's going to be kind of, I mean, that's Chevy Bolt power in a SUV. Yeah. It's going to be a little bit underwhelming, I think.

So Honda comes with the Google Wireless Apple CarPlay Android Auto compatibility, 19-inch wheels. That range is enabled by an 85-kilowatt-hour battery pack. They only gave us the metric of 60 miles of charging around in 10 minutes. So that's just not a great metric because it gives the first 65 miles from a 10% state of charge. That's just not great metrics to have.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. You get some illegal credits with that, which won't take you that far. The design is good. I'm not mad at it. I probably would prefer a Blazer or a Canucks over this right now based on what I get. But I haven't driven in, so I shouldn't say anything. I think we have Scooter driving this in a week or two, right? Oh, I'm not sure.

I think Scooter is driving this next week, if I'm not mistaken. So we should get Scooter on the podcast whenever he's after his ride to give us some impression on this. Especially since I think Scooter has also driven an Old Sion vehicle before from GM. We'll figure that out for you guys and let you know. But it would be interesting to see a nice comparison of an Old Sion GM vehicle versus an Old Sion Honda vehicle. See if there's an interesting difference on that front.

Well, Anne, we're going to take your comments just after this article, which is bad news for Polestar. They are cutting about 15% of their workforce. 450 people, I think, are affected. It's been a day or two since I read that. Yeah, 450 people are using their job globally, 15% of the workforce. They are saying they are adjusting, they are restructuring the organization amid lowered and expected sales. So, yeah.

All-Star also had this little in-between growth wave situation like Tesla as they bring the 3 and 4 to volume production. So they are readjusting with that as they prepare for this new growth period. So wish them the best because I think Volvo, All-Star, like you said, they are probably in the…

They're in a good place. I just wonder if there's enough room in the auto market for two separate entities. Volvo could have kept them in-house and made Polestar versions of their vehicles. The Polestar 3 and the Volvo EX90 are kind of the same car under the hood, and the Volvo seemed...

much more compelling with a third row and kind of a more distinctive Volvo look. And the pole stars a little bit more generic. I feel like Volvo is going to be eating up a lot of the potential customers for the pole star. That's a good point. Yeah. All right. Let's jump into the comments. All right. Uh,

So did we look at Rivian's impact report? Carl in San Diego says it shows pretty bad emission from production. Are you all tracking and learning about the differences between the makes and the models? My understanding with Rivian is that they are really working to kind of reduce the impact from the production. For instance, they just put a big windmill and they have tons of solar at their facilities. So I think they are...

And in fact, I don't know that everybody else does impact reports. So just the fact that there is one is probably a good sign. Yeah. And if you do one and then you realize, oh, maybe we are polluting more than we thought, then at least you can...

find out where that is coming from and adjust. I know that Tesla has been in a similar situation and those impact report have them pinpoint exactly where they need to adjust. Yep. All right. Question. When do you guys think Tesla will start building chargers, more geared towards cyber truck pulling trailers? It seems now that they would have to unhook the trailer before they charge. Yeah. We saw the Jerry Riggs, everything had to do that with this cyber truck. Yeah.

which is, you know, painful. Tesla already has some places where you can pull in, uh, for what, with a trailer, obviously they'll have to do more. I'm more interested in, um, you know, you have to pull up that cyber truck, like two within an inch of the, uh, the curb to, to charge. Now, um, obviously the V three, four, the V four, uh, superchargers are going to have longer cables, not just for cyber truck, but for other makes, um,

i don't know when are we going to see like those roll out a lot further i guess you know i think i think this low i don't think that's going to be that big of an issue obviously for early owners like everything it's it's going to be an issue but over time as they ramp up i think tesla has pretty good look into the data they know where they would need those and and when

And we see it right now in plans for a new supercharger. These are planned for most of the bigger new stations. So I think that's a fairly small problem that should be figured out. But I know it's an annoying one when you're stuck and having to un-itch your trailer. So we're hoping that more new stations are going to have that. But it looks like Tesla is aware of the issue. Yeah, they have to be aware. And they also know that they're going to build a lot more Cybertrucks. Yeah.

Nick Cedar says, question, do you think Elon's maneuvering about AI development is a sign that he knows now that level five is unachievable and he's bailing out on it? It would be interesting to see.

I mean, level five, like if Elon doesn't know that level five is unachievable on the current, at least on hardware three vehicles, on vehicles that don't have like self-cleaning for some of the most important cameras. I think he's being completely delusional if that's the case. I think level four is possibly achievable on hardware three.

uh three vehicles if v12 is a success um at least if v12 shows a path towards that but the level five is like i i drive between montreal and chevron all the time and just a little bit of snow and i get all these alerts that fsd is degraded because of bad weather and like the weather is like minimally affected just a little bit of snow a little bit of rain or whatever and it's and it screws up so

I don't think level five is in the cards at all. Now, is Elon Manureving, is AI development as a sign that he knows that? I don't know about that. I don't know about that exactly. I think Elon wants to erase his loss of Tesla shares and control from his Twitter acquisition with a nice juicy new CEO package. And that's his way to...

to announce that to the world that does feel like the uh the case which is kind of frustrating because he did make the choice to spend all that on twitter and and he made the choice to spend that particular amount before you know the stock market kind of went down and twitter's value went down but he was still going to spend that much money so he made that choice

All right. Bela Kumar says, the price of EVs are going to determine who is going to be the market leader in EVs. And at this stage, it's not Tesla as taken over by BYD. Yeah, well, I don't know. We'll see about that. BYD is still very new at making higher-end vehicles. And that's just a fact. Vehicles that are comparable to Tesla. Let's put it like that.

So we'll see how successful they are with that in China, which I strongly believe they will be successful. Now...

we'll compare like it would be nice if we could compare their costs and margins making these vehicles in volume in china to test those costs and margins um selling these vehicles and making them in shanghai and then if you could replicate that like if if the yd wants to enter like the north american market for example they're gonna have to build here like uh it doesn't like

the current protectionist conditions installed by the government or make that basically the only option or the only viable option, profitable option, let's say. So what would be interesting is could BYD do that in the U.S.? They have some operation in the U.S. on the commercial sides of things and all that. So I think it's possible, but could they be as successful at this or doing it in the U.S.? We'll see. But yeah, the price of EVs is a major impact, there's no doubt.

All right. John says, think about what happened to open AI. It's probably why Elon is worried. He's referring to Sam Altman, the CEO being ousted by the board temporarily. Then a whole bunch of stuff happened. Microsoft hired, I guess, sort of Altman. And then the whole basically 80 percent of the employees said they're going to leave if they don't reinstate them. The board changed and then they reinstated them.

Elon probably saw that. He knows Altman pretty well. They've been friends in the past. I don't know if they're that friendly these days. But, you know, I'm sure Elon is afraid on some level of losing his control. So, I don't know. What do you think? I think it's worth mentioning, though, that Altman doesn't own any equity in OpenAI. That's a good point. So, Tesla owns still more equity than anyone in Tesla. And also...

We don't even know exactly what happened with Opon AI. The board never said exactly why they fired Altman in the first place. They said he wasn't being transparent. You could probably say the same thing about Elon, but they never explained why. And that's why they ended up re-hire him because they were given an ultimatum by employees. Now, here's a better question because you brought in the comparison and you brought in the fact that the board was pressured by the employees to re-hire him.

or to not fire him or whatever you think that the board no i'm not saying that it's gonna happen but the board fires elon as ceo tomorrow do you think the employees uh

i don't think it would be behind them i don't think 80 of them would especially not not the people on the line uh certainly some would but um i think especially with the uh the salary cuts lately yes what are we gonna say yes morale's a little bit lower than uh it has been in the past yeah it's hard when like a lot of employees so their compensation their yearly bonus and all that go down this year

And then at the same time, Elon is asking for like a $60 billion compensation package. I know he's not asking for more economics, but it just so happens that he comes with more economics. All right. Maybe Elon should do something like he gets a $60 billion compensation plan from Tesla and then he gives out the shares to his fans. Yeah.

with a proxy that evokes the shares for them they get the financial benefit and he gets the voting power oh that would be interesting i'm sure everybody would be into that except elon well not but elon would that he claims that that's what he wants he only wants the voting power don't want the extra economics though at the same time i don't know how the value of those shares would

Unless Tesla starts giving out dividends or anything like that, they won't because they couldn't sell them. Or they could only sell them between themselves that give the proxy to Elon. So it would be a mess. I don't think it's actually executable, but...

It's an interesting concept. It would test if what he said is true about not wanting more economics, just wanting more voting power. Oh, and it's funny. This is something I pulled up last week. I was just rooting around. But Elon has said in the past, he has talked about Zuckerberg at Facebook having –

He talked about it as a bad thing that Zuckerberg had outsized power. He owns a few percentage points, but he has basically half the voting shares at Facebook. And Elon has said in the past that that's bad. So it's funny that he's hoping for something like that now. Yeah. So I don't know.

So I should indulge Carl here. Elon is a megalomaniac. Unless you can accept that, you'll continue to be confused about his motives for full control. He believes he's a god and everyone else is trying to keep up. That's why Elon can say AI is the most dangerous tech and yet trust his companies to rely on it for the future. Complete hypocrite. And then I think he's not confirming FSD licensing conversations. He's making them up out of thin air. Shareholders should hold him responsible for that lie. He's used it twice. Oh,

I don't think we have proof that that's a lie. And I mean, especially I wouldn't be so surprised if,

Tesla talked to every single automaker operating in North America over the last year about NAX. If they're talking about NAX, they're talking about deal to access the supercharger network. I wouldn't be surprised if they're like, hey, by the way, are you interested in other Tesla technology other than NAX? Do you want autopilot? Do you want FSD on this side? Do you want whatever? But FSD is going to be a big

like you're going to have to put cameras all over a car and computers in the car and stuff. It's a big deal. Yeah, but it's less of a big deal than like a Waymo kit or something. Right. You know, when I took a look at the Volvo EX90, the bigger Volvo, it has a lot of LiDAR stuff on it. And I know Volvo is a big partner with Waymo. It wouldn't surprise me to get like a Waymo Lite OS on the EX90. Yeah, yeah. That would make sense for Waymo to like,

start to bring in more revenue streams and their ride sharing business. I mean, that's kind of like their I don't think their end goal is to be a ride sharing service. I think they want to sell their stuff to I don't know. Anyway, let's move on. No one is going to license a feature which doesn't work except Tesla. We're talking about FSD here. Yeah, I think to get it to work would be like the first order of business.

So don't underestimate that Waymo can be cheating with remote driver operators. Cruise whistleblower pretty much admitted that they were doing that. It means that their AV is smoking mirrors. I don't know how much the driver operators... I know that if a Chevy Bolt cruise thing gets pulled over by the cops, then a remote guy takes over. But I don't think people were actually driving the cars.

There's like a takeover thing. All right. Tesla should make a VTOL. That would be a good use of their time. Question. How will true level five deal with snow and driving rain? It seems more improbable the further the development cycle advances. It's a great point. I don't think they I don't think we're there anytime soon. What do you think you drive around with?

I mean, I think it's certainly feasible. Like we human drive in the snow and it's difficult. A lot of humans don't drive in the snow like they can't, like they want, they don't want to, uh,

And understand why it can be more difficult if you're not used to it. But if you're used to it, if you have an AI that's used to train for driving the snow and they have the hardware capable of seeing it, which is mostly like the front facing camera being behind the windshield is not too bad because as a human driver, you have to clean the windshield too nonstop to be able to see. So the same thing for the camera here on the left.

on that front. But then on the side cameras and the rear camera, you need like a cleaning system to put it so that the Cybertruck has that, for example, in the bumper camera, they have a little cleaner on this. Like if you have that on all the cameras around, I don't see, and you have like a capable AI of seeing it that can understand how to drive in the snow. I don't see why it's not possible. It's just, I don't think Tesla can achieve it on the current hardware that they have. So which, yeah,

I don't know how he not even ever mentioned level five. Like he said, like level five at one point about hardware three. And it's like, wait, what are you talking about? Yeah. And it's going to take a lot longer to get to the, you know, you'll have like the good weather FSD working long before the snowy weather FSD. I think sometimes Elon, when he says like hardware three, he thinks about like the computer, like the hardware three computer.

And it's like, for us, like the hardware, like it's the entire hardware necessary to drive the car, like the cameras and all that. But he talks like, oh, yeah, hardware, three computer could run the AI that powers the vehicles. Like maybe, I don't know. It's not right now. It's not powering an AI capable of level four, let alone level five. But yeah, I don't know. Such a mess.

All right, the best part of the Macan is that the new design is EV only with no ICE option. So marketing-wise, it'll help Porsche buyers understand the transition to all-electric is real. That's a good point. Yeah, I mean, they are continuing to sell the old version, gas version, for at least a little while longer. All right, let's move on. We got a lot of chatter here. That guy can't get into EVs, I think.

Uh, Polestar should have stayed, have stayed the AMG of Volvo. The push to get new brands is the same push that led Genesis to try it's to try to be its own brand. Um, I agree. So, so,

Porsche or sorry, Volvo spun out and IPO actually, or was it a SPAC? I can't even remember. Yeah, I don't remember it was a SPAC. But yeah, I think I think that was probably the main reason like they wanted they wanted that EV multiple on the market that they knew that they won't they wouldn't get out of Volvo. I think that's what they wanted. But but on the actual like, if like, on the selling side, I think there's advantage to it. I think like if you have like an all electric, I think

The rollout of the Polestar was not the best. They started off with the Polestar 1 and all that. I think they kind of messed that up. They could have done that better. But it didn't make sense to me to have their own brand that's all electric versus their... Maybe they should have just released electric vehicle on the Polestar brand and then keep Volvo. But then you don't want Volvo to die as an ICE brand while...

that you lose all the value of the Volvo brand. So yeah, there's benefits on each side. There's negative on each side, I think.

I agree. So that's the end of our questions there. Yeah. Thanks everyone for asking questions today. Thanks everyone for listening to the electric podcast. We appreciate every single one of you that does it. If you do enjoy the show, you want to help out in quick ways that are free to do or clicking that like button, clicking that subscribe button, taking that bell notification button to know when we're going live and when we're releasing new content on our platform. So all the things help a lot. If you're listening on your podcast app, if you can give us a five-star review, that helps a ton.

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