Tesla shareholders meeting, more lawsuits, ultra-fast charging, and more
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All right, we're going live, everyone, for a new episode of The Electric Podcast. As usual, I'm Fred Lindberg, your host, and I'm joined by my co-host, Seth Winthrop, and we have a special guest today.

Jameson Dow coming on live to discuss with us the Tesla shareholders meeting. Hi, everyone. We don't have a usual sponsor this week, but we want to give a quick shout out to the Electric American Solar Challenge 2024. That's coming up real soon. So we're going to have a little bit more to say about them later on the show. Stay tuned for that. It's a very cool project.

But yeah, like I just said, the main story is going to be everything that came out of the shareholder meeting yesterday. Then we have a little bit more to talk about Tesla and then some cool news from Lucid, Lotus and a little tidbit of information about Ford that we want to discuss too.

At the end of the show, as usual, we're going to take you guys' questions or any other topics in the EV world that we haven't discussed today that you want us to discuss. You can put them in the comment section right now. We are live on all of the platforms. All right. Let's start with just like the shoulder meeting starts with the boring stuff. Though this time around, it was not that boring because it was actually probably the main headline of this whole thing. And it was the...

proposal to ratify Elon's 2018 CEO Compensation Plan that was rescinded by a judge earlier this year. And the incorporation moved to Texas. Now, the actual meeting itself didn't have much of a surprise because Elon actually leaked the result of these two proposals just a few hours the day before, right?

Yeah, it was the day before and it was actually a couple of hours before the voting ended, which was a little interesting. Yeah, I've heard some people say that before the voting ended, but technically you can vote all the way through the actual shareware meeting because Tesla's IR person, or in this case, because Martin Vieca retired from Tesla this week, it was the deputy general counsel that was there, but

He says, like, you guys can still vote right now and then close the poll, announce the results. And the results were obviously for these two proposals were approved by a strong majority. I might have had. And so the other the other proposal, both from the company, from the board and from, you know, outside shareholders proposals, the results were.

Mainly the most important ones, the two re-elections of the directors, specifically Kimball Moss, Elon's brother, and James Murdoch, the former CEO of News Corp. Is that it? So, no, James Murdoch is the son of Rupert Murdoch. But he was CEO of News Corp at one point, no? Ah.

Maybe not News Corp, but he had a job at News or whatever it is. One of the many corporations under his umbrella. He was chairman and CEO of News Corporation of Europe and Asia, not the whole thing, I guess. Okay, I get that. But yeah, he was involved in the business and he's kind of the black sheep.

of the family apparently because he like believes climate change exists or whatever. Maybe the white sheep for that family. Yeah, sure. The white sheep. Exactly. That's a better way to put it. All right. So they were both reelected. And I might have had Ken Ball was reelected with a stronger majority than Elon CEO competition, which was interesting to see, right? Yeah, a little bit.

I actually that was where I was thinking that there might be a change because even though I thought that the SEO competition package would pass,

I thought that maybe at least some of the shareholders would acknowledge the governance issues that were highlighted by the judge. And even though they want Elon to get paid, they could still get paid. But we don't want this situation to happen again. So let's change things up at the board, have the board more independent. And Elon's own brother being up for election was a great opportunity to do that. And shareholders didn't even decide to do that.

That's why I feel, I mean, I feel as a Tesla shareholder, I feel like very disconnected from the shareholder base at this point. I'm actually thinking about selling now. I've been flirting with the idea for a while, but after seeing that shareholder meeting, seeing that I don't feel aligned with the shareholder base anymore, I just, you know, I'm sure you guys are going to try to convince me to not sell. Yeah.

I still have my share. Yeah, same here. I have one novelty share. I have considered getting rid of that one novelty share because I feel the same weird disconnection as you. I kind of want to wash my hands out of the whole thing. Actually, I have 15 shares because I had my one share and split five. See, mine split too, but I sold off all but one each time I split.

Yeah, and there were two other proposals from all the proposals that the board suggested were approved by shareholders. And there were a bunch of shareholder proposals, which generally get shut down. But now two of them were approved. And they were the ones, which one were they? They were the one for the board director terms from three years to one year. So I thought that was actually good because, you know, at least we're going to have,

Well, it depends. Because I think now, for example, Murdoch and Kimball still get three years because that was before that. I think those were actually advisory proposals. So even though it's clear that the shareholders want it, Tesla may not implement it. Yeah, they still need to implement it at Euro.

Yeah. And then also the fact that it happened all at the same time and they were being reelected for a three year. I'm sure that Tesla will be like, well, you elected them for three years, but maybe we'll consider one year from here on out. But I frankly, I think they're just not even going to do the one years.

Oh, yeah. That would be weird to do considering all the messaging around Elon's compensation package was about shareholder democracy. Yeah. I would be surprised if they don't go through with it because it would be like the epitome of hypocrisy. And the other one was about the regular majority rather than the 60% majority that you needed before that thing.

Yeah, 67, I think, which is just, I mean, it's already difficult for a majority, for a proposal to get a majority if the board recommends against it. It's almost impossible to get. I mean, with a 67% majority, the board already owns 20 something percent at this point. So it's like, where are you going to get the votes? You'd have to be universal, you know? Exactly. All right. After that, yeah.

I mean, do you guys want to discuss the composition package, Volt passing? Do you guys have any specific thought? Personally, I was not surprised by it. So, like, it's not... I'm more surprised by the fact that they took a victory lap out of this thing because...

It's not the end. Like, this is going to be used in the appeal process that Tesla is inevitably going to file after July 8th, which is the next hearing for the case. So it's going to be useful for sure. And there's at least a chance that the judge is just going to ratify it, going to say that, all right, you guys...

really want this, like I'm not going to stand in the way anymore. Or, you know, most likely than not, there's going to be a lot of counter arguments from the Tornado side that, you know, that the vote again was not proper for

Elon has given everyone a ton of reasons for that with Tesla having to file proxies for every one of his tweets that was regarding that. Some of them you could arguably qualify as misleading. So there's going to be ammunition on each side. Now, Tesla is the ammunition of shareholders supporting the package again and the Tornado side as all the stupid things as Elon has said in the last few months.

Yeah. So my opinion is that this is taking a higher level view, but my opinion is that if Tesla or XAI get close to AGI, right, that's kind of the Holy Grail of everything. And once you have AGI, then the AGI can start building more AIs and kind of just go crazy.

Elon is going to, if somebody at Tesla's figured it out, he's going to take that and move it to XAI, whether he has 10% of Tesla or 25% of Tesla or 50% of Tesla because he owns more of XAI than he will ever own of Tesla. So I don't know what this buys Tesla shareholders besides a $56 billion dilution of stock price.

Because right now, Tesla is a bigger portion of his wealth. But if XAI somehow is the only one that has AGI, then that will definitely be worth more than Tesla because AGI is worth more than...

Anything. For sure. But and Elon has even said multiple times that he is willing to take resources from said and shown multiple times that he's willing to take resources from Tesla and channel them to XAI, which doesn't seem like a great thing.

That was the one thing that really made me think that possibly the shareholders might understand that this guy is not out for their business. Yeah, that didn't budge a thing. And I guess we can talk about already the new lawsuit that was filed this week since we're on the subject. But what we just discussed is now subject of a lawsuit that was filed by shareholders, mainly the Cleveland Bakers and Teamsters pension found.

It's exactly about that. It's about Elon's funding of XAI, which they describe as a breach of fiduciary duty, specifically the funding of resources that you just mentioned. The main point is things that we've been reporting on for over a year now. It's mainly the launch of XAI, the threat of if he doesn't get 25% of Tesla, he won't build a high product at Tesla.

XAI poaching Tesla employees from XAI, which is sort of funneling to a degree. And the NVIDIA shifting of priority shipment from Tesla to X and XAI shifting

As another example, this thing came out yesterday and I'm still going through it. It's like 300 page lawsuit. But I've just been going through it earlier and I saw a few points about it that I thought were really interesting. The biggest one, I think the strongest claim in it is that Elon has already admitted that OpenAI and Tesla are the conflict of interest.

You know, that was the official reason why he left OpenAI in 2018. He said that, word for word, he said Tesla was competing for some of the same people as OpenAI. So that was a conflict of interest big enough to quit OpenAI. Now, obviously, since then, we've learned a little bit more. It was not just that. It was, you know, he was trying actually for Tesla to buy OpenAI. And that didn't go well with the rest of the people at OpenAI.

But then if you take that into account, Elon admitting that, and then XAI obviously being a direct competitor to OpenAI, I don't think anyone is going to deny that, including Elon. Then how is XAI not in conflict of interest with Tesla?

It's pretty clear. And obviously, Elon poaching Tesla employees from Tesla to go to XAI confirms that. The NVIDIA prioritizing shipment, even though I think you can make the argument that this was a good move for Tesla if Tesla was not ready for it. But then you have to ask yourself, why was not Tesla ready for it and X and XAI were ready for it? What does that mean? Does that mean that Elon and his crew have done something that may

X and XI more prepared to receive the compute power than Tesla. So that's problematic in itself.

Maybe firing 14,000 people and channeling your AI employees from one company to the other might have affected your preparation. That sounds like a reasonable argument. I'm going to just cite real quick the opening of the lawsuit because I found it a little bit poignant regarding the situation. Could the CEO of Coca-Cola loyally start a competing soft drink company on the side then divert scarce ingredients from Coca-Cola to the startup?

Could the CEO of Goldman Sachs loyally start a competing financial advisory company on the side, then hire away key bankers from Goldman Sachs to the startup? Could the board of either company loyally permit such conduct without doing anything about it? Of course not.

So, I mean, that's a good point. It's, you know, it's obviously simplifying the situation. It's basically what Elon is doing. So, I don't know. We haven't heard the counter-argument from Tesla about this lawsuit. This was filed just before, in Delaware, just before Tesla made the incorporation move to Texas, like literally an hour before something like that. They were obviously rushing to make it. This has been the word for a while, obviously, even though it mentioned like the NVIDIA report that came out just last week. But I

I'm sure that they were preparing this lawsuit for a year probably, and then they kept adding things to it. So we haven't heard the counter argument for Tesla, but to me, this seems like a slam dunk. I mean, there's going to be discovery around it and all that. But for the most part, the lawsuit looks winnable just from Elon tweets and a few press releases and media reports, basically. Obviously, there's going to be a bunch of discovery around it.

One other thing to note is that we just went through a shareholder meeting where Tesla, a car company that has made functionally all of its revenue from cars. Now, there's services and other, there's all that stuff. But if you look at it, we're talking about 90% plus, didn't talk about cars at all.

A little bit. A little bit. They had one slide showing the cars that are coming up and they didn't say the cars. I don't know if they said the word robo-taxi. They said one line about Tesla Semi. They never mentioned the Model 2. All of these things that are part of the master plan of the company and instead...

hours were spent talking about Optimus. So if we're arguing that, you know, well, Tesla AI, Tesla is just thinking about AI. Well, no, they're not just thinking about AI. It's clear that they're being sold right now, that the company is selling itself as purely an AI play.

Yeah, yeah. The statesmen from Elon are all there on that. So Elon has made his own bed there. And that's why I'm saying it's a slam dunk because I don't see how long it gets out. The argument would be, like you said, Tesla is actually a car company. AI is not our main product. It doesn't make sense for us to... We're not really competing with XAI. You can use dozens of Elon statements to counter it.

contradict that. So yeah, you're right. It's not a good move. But going back to the shareholder meeting. So yeah, I think you're right. There was not a lot of talk about talks. You just referenced this slide here. That was the main slide about vehicles. So revealing sort of three vehicles in the upcoming vehicles that haven't been revealed just yet. So yeah,

It raises some questions because where are those vehicles? First of all, I see a lot of people talking about this is a van, for example, just by looking at the shape of it underneath the cloth.

I wouldn't put too much value on that because actually we've seen that specific shape on their exact same render all the way back since battery day in 2020. So it's been around at Tesla for a while. And if you look at the two others, they look to be the exact same pictures. And I don't think those are going to be the exact same car. So I don't think the shape underneath the clock mean anything for now.

But we kind of know what those vehicles should be. I think this is the robotaxi most likely. So the NV93, which is the vehicle that's meant to be self-driving without any steering wheel and built on the Unbox, the new manufacturing system Unbox that Tesla has designed.

The two others, if you would have asked me six months ago, I would have said that those are NV91 and NV92. The small sedan slash hatchback, little crossover, compact crossover, built also on the Unboxed platform. But those have been canceled, postponed, however you want to call it. No resources being spent on those. Only the Robotech C now is based on the Unboxed platform.

But what they are likely is what Tesla confirmed at the last earnings, that they are instead building cheaper vehicles on existing platform, but using some of the technology from the next gen platform built on the existing production line. And from what we heard internally, those are...

based on the Model 3 and the Model Y respectively, just a little bit smaller, less premium features, less premium materials. Not that Tesla uses a ton of those, but it should be cheaper.

The interesting thing to me is that they're split up on the graphic. One of them is on the far right side, one of them is on the far left side. You would expect if they were in the same vehicle line that they might be right next to each other. Yeah, I mean, I say that, but this might be the Model 3-based cheaper vehicle. This might be the Model Y-based cheaper vehicle. This might be the RuboTaxi. Like I said, the shape of them don't really mean much, I think, or the location. Yeah.

The only thing that this location might mean something would be the Roadster, but then if we include the Roadster in there, then there's one vehicle that's missing or the Roadster is missing, which I think is more likely. Or Model 2 is just going to be one platform and it will just be one small SUV type and they just didn't want to put that on the graphic. Maybe they're going the direction of everybody else and just deciding to not do sedans anymore.

Yeah, it's not what I've heard internally. Internally, I heard that the two new cheaper models are based on Model 3 and Model Y. So it would be technically a smaller sedan and smaller or cheaper crossover slash mid-size SUV. People argue that the Model Y is not really a mid-size SUV, but I think it falls in that category. But yeah, it does raise the question, where's the roadster? Because Elon recently said that...

that the new version of the next gen Roadster would be unveiled by the end of the year and then production next year. I've heard, I haven't reported on it because it's a single source, couldn't confirm it, but I've heard that this has been pushed again and I think this has had some credibility to that. I mean, end of this year is just... we need to come up with a new phrase there, don't we? We all know that end of this year doesn't mean end of this year ever.

I mean, that was just the unveiling of an updated version of it too. And when he said that, he said that he just came out like of an engineering meeting, like approving the new version of it too. All right. Oh yeah. Before we go to that, let's go real quick to another thing that has to do with this vehicle, the Cybertruck. One of the rare concrete new information to come out of the meeting that was not just like a big, you know, projection into the future was that, you know,

Tesla has achieved a production rate of 1,300 Cybertrucks per week, up for 1,000 that was achieved in April. And Elon has confirmed that Tesla also said that now the goal is 2,500 per week by the end of the year. So Tesla prior has only talked about the overall high volume production capacity of 5,000 achieved this year.

around 18 months after the start of production, which would put it sometime in 2025. Now they are putting a new target for the end of the year of 2500. And Elon has added that Tesla plans to move away from the foundation series production of the Cybertruck next quarter in Q3.

So that would presumably reduce the price of the Cybertruck because right now Tesla is producing the Cyber Beast and Zul Motor Cybertruck, which are $80,000 and $100,000 vehicle. But with this foundation series package that basically adds all the options on the vehicle, including full self-driving, including the power share system and all that. And a sticker.

There's a sticker also. So that is basically value, that $20,000 in there. So Tesla would likely break those down in option instead of bundling everything together, bringing the cost down to $80,000. Obviously, the $60,000 or $70,000 rear-wheel drive version, that is not planned until next year.

But still, it's an impressive ramp. You know, I mean, if if these you know that he said it's a peak of 1300 Cybertrucks, so maybe they're not quite there. But, you know, that's it's impressive to have ramped it up that high. Now we've got to see if the market sticks around for it once we get up to really volume numbers.

Yeah, I mean, $100,000, there is a limited market for pickup of that price range. As soon as you go down market, you're going to open up. But I think also I've seen a lot of people just canceling their reservation for the Cybertruck over the last six months or so just because the price is the main one, I think. But some people are also disappointed in the actual specs compared to what was announced last year, especially the range being only achieved through...

an extended range battery pack that we haven't heard about the pricing of yet and the delivery timeline. Or if it'll even happen, because it could be another one of those things where they just say, oh, well, nobody wants it, which is fair. I don't know that I would want it. Yeah. I mean, also how it works exactly. Can the customer take it out by themselves at home? Yeah. A thousand pounds in your garage. Yeah. It doesn't seem practical.

Other thing regarding the current fleet, Elon looked like he was convinced on stage to do it one more time for the FSD transfer for existing owner. So there's something that owners have been asking for a long time. Elon has been using it as more of an end of quarter incentive type of thing where you would temporarily allow current owners who have the FSD package to transfer it to a new vehicle.

in a way to boost sales rather than actually doing the right thing and allowing people that have bought the package for something that Tesla has yet to deliver to just transfer it to a new car if they want to. These are loyal customers. They actually want to get a new car from you despite the fact that you've been misleading them about this thing for years. This should be a no-brainer. But Elon has been extremely resistant. I mean, on this meeting, actually at some point, I don't know if you quoted him in that article, but

Yeah, well, it was just no. The last time. Yeah, well, that was the last time. Yeah, the last time he was asked that. So that actually is a good lesson. If you want to ask something to Elon, don't ask him on the call or ask him. Well, actually, that was on the earnings call through the C website. So it was really just a comment from a shareholder. Yeah.

responding to no it's a lot harder to say no to someone in their face so it looks like Elon is human on that sense because he also was able to get convinced by that guy on stage so that was cool but again he said he said it like okay one more quarter like I'm gonna make you a favor yeah not doing anyone a favor there you're just doing the right thing and doing the right thing would actually be making it permanent and I think I think we all agree on that here

And after all the hemming-hawing of like, oh, it's so complex for a sales organization and I don't know if we can do it and blah, blah, blah. So you just flip the switch forever. It doesn't need to be complex. Just do it once and don't have to go back and forth and back and forth on it. And he didn't really say that back and forth was the problem. He really said there's a lot of complexity to it on the sell side. And the guy has said that self-driving is solved, but

Self-driving transfer is probably too complex. Right. Right. We have the most, the most AI, the most, what was it? The real, the best real world AI in the world, but we can't figure out how to flip a checkbox from one guy to another.

Makes no sense. All right. Now let's go to the meat of the meeting, the bots. Because Elon started out the meeting, you know, they're quick. Thank you for giving him 55 billion in options. But after that,

he went full on all right how do i justify that and his justification was like tesla is gonna be and i'm quoting here 10x what is the most valuable companies today which are about like three trillion dollars which would mean you know about 30 trillion dollars in value and most of that is going to come thanks to these little things here these tesla bots these optimist robots humanoid robots

And, yeah, I mean, he started out by saying like pie in the sky stuff that he believes that humanoid robots are going to be on markets of about a million units a year, that Tesla is going to make about 10% of those. Then you know that Elon is just throwing numbers out there when he talks like that. He was then, let's say that we can make them for $10,000 and sell them for $20,000, which

by itself is like, what are those numbers? Tesla doesn't have 50% margins on any products right now, other than maybe FSD. So I guess you could say that even if FSD is 50%, once you recognize all the revenue and Tesla is not there. So Tesla doesn't have any products right now with 50% gross margin. I said 50%, it's 100% gross margin if you're selling it for $20,000 and you're making them for 10. Well, and so the other thing is that, you know, you talk about throwing out numbers.

Even during the presentation itself, those numbers changed because at the very beginning, he said that this would be worth 20 trillion worth in market cap. And then three minutes later, he says, oh, it's probably 25 trillion in market cap. And it's just like, well, you just added literally the two most valuable companies in the world onto your company, just as you were making up numbers.

Just small difference. Just an Apple and an NVIDIA. No big deal. You know what I mean? And it's like, you're not... I understand that, yes, AGI is... The thing is, AGI is worth... If one company... If only one company has AGI, it's probably worth that. But...

First, only one company is not going to have AGI. Second, there's no reason to think that Tesla is going to be. I mean, there's, you know, there's reason to think that they have a chance in there, but there's no reason to say like, oh, definitely Tesla will have AGI. And I think the market has reacted by recognizing that all of this was just.

people talking. Yeah, I want to talk about that a little bit because that is where I completely am disconnected with the shareholder base because look at this tweet here. That's one of the reasons where people are saying that I was doing a meltdown, but

My point, Stan, I haven't heard a good counter-argument to this. Elon went on stage and announced or claimed that Tesla would be worth $30 trillion. He said that Tesla is now making NVIDIA-level chips. I mean, designing them, I should say. They're not producing them. But they have NVIDIA-level chips. And he said that the reason why we use our own chips is because no one is doing anything better. NVIDIA is worth trillions of dollars right now.

that I would think that this is huge news. Like the Optimus is going in limited production to a thousand to a couple thousand units next year to be used in Tesla factories. And then, you know, higher volume production after that. And then he said for the hundred times that self-driving is coming soon. But yeah, so you put all that together. Those are, if you believe Elon Musk, right?

And it sounds like the shareholder base believe in they just ratified his composition plan. They voted for born members that have completely in your any kind of governance issues. So the majority seem to believe that the narrative, that the judge decision in Delaware was political motivated and all that, that there was no actual issues with governance at Tesla.

So if you believe all that, then you believe Elon. And why are you not? Why does the stock not responding? If I was a shareholder and Tesla and I am and I believe this stuff, I'm buying like crazy right now. This is the investment opportunity of a lifetime going from $500 million to $30 trillion.

with all of that incredible technology that he just claimed to have. And in a couple of years, because wasn't he talking about, we're going to ramp up Optimus to the point where everyone's using it in 2025, was it? I think, or 26 was the number? Yeah, he said more than 26, which is a delay from something that he said just a few months ago. But even the fact that if Tesla has a thousand to a couple of thousand Optimus in factories, that would already...

you know, insinuate that the robot has achieved a level of usefulness that is incredible. Because, you know, if you find the use for a thousand or so humanoid robots in your company, obviously Tesla has tens of thousands of employees. So I'm sure they can, you know, look at their workload of those employees and try to go for the lower-ending fruit of what humanoid robots can do. So, because I'm actually someone that is somewhat bullish on Optimus in the sense that

I see what's happening with AI right now. I do notice a really quick ramp of improvement, exponential improvement in AI capabilities. So I think that now with the improvements in AI, it does make sense to have a humanoid, you know, humanoid robots around, which you combine those with AI. And I think the indeed could, you know, take a lot of jobs away from humans because, you

It's pretty clear how useful actual

you know, performing humanoid robot can have because you don't need to design anything specifically for, you know, industrial robots to do a specific task. Everything that is designed for human tasks, a humanoid robot would be theoretically capable of taking if the AI capacity is there and if the agility of the robot is there, which, you know, Elon said some interesting about, you know, the ants going from 11 level of freedoms to 22. There's a lot of interesting things like that.

However, if you think like that, I just don't believe in that it's going to be this quick of a timeline. Obviously, I think it's going to take a little bit more time than that. But if you believe him on that, why are people not buying this stock like crazy?

Yeah, well, and then he also said recently that Tesla had baby AGI, which I don't even know what that means. But, you know, that suggests that he's getting close, you know, to having some sort of AGI breakthrough. And it's like, well, if we're on the, you know, the precipice of that, getting a not just 10x, but what would it be almost like 6x?

70 X or something improvement to get to a 30 trillion market cap. Like, Oh, maybe that's worth a few bucks, but people don't seem to believe that. And part of the, one of the things that I wanted to mention about this is that, you know, I don't know if anyone's ever watched shark tank, but oftentimes the, the pictures come on and say something like, Oh, this is a $1 billion global market. And just imagine if we can capture 1% of that. And it's like, okay, well,

So that's imagining. Now show us you capturing 1% of that. What's the plan to get there? Do you have a product? Are you selling the product? How are you going to get it to people? And on the one hand, Tesla isn't just a shark tank pitch. Obviously, they're one of the biggest companies in the world, and they have manufacturing expertise and engineering expertise. They've solved these problems. But Elon did say that whole...

you know, what if we gathered 10% of the market? And it's like, that's very, very speculative, very, very imaginative. You're not, you're not, you can't just give yourself 10% of a market and say, by the way, you should give us 20 trillion market cap because we think we can do this. You know, there's a lot of steps between here and there. Yeah. There's a lot of numbers. I just didn't add up. Like he compared it to the, like the auto industry at a hundred million units a year. But then he said a billion units for, for,

the robots and he said he sees um he sees people having like more robots than people um not any specific like multiplicator there but you know there's eight billion people's on people on earth and because every malawian is going to buy a ten thousand dollar twenty thousand dollar humanoid robot but obviously i think he's more talking about like the um

the rich people are gonna have like sure 100 of them and then poor people that have one of zero but anyway even those number had up that don't add up because a billion units a year with just eight billion humans like is that is there let's say it's two to one so it's like one replacement every 16 years like what's the like what's the actual replacement rate on that like it's not clear it did obviously look like he was just throwing out numbers

However, I also agree with him that if Tesla can deliver on a useful humanoid robot,

and be one of the first to market, then sure, like they're going to take a big market share of that. But I think I would like to see Elon or, you know, if even if it's not Elon, Tesla in general, enter kind of an Apple era of, you know, talk about the products once you have them. This is nice when like, you know, obviously there's...

an army of reporters like herself that's going to reveal a lot of things before they come out. But Apple, for example, because I use Apple, for example, we knew about the Vision Pro before it came out. But Apple kept its mouth shut and basically just said, oh, we like virtual reality, augmented reality that's coming and everything.

but there was no announcement of a product until they actually had the product ready to ship. Basically, I think it was like a month or two in between. Yeah. And the Apple car also that they've never said a single word about ever. And everybody reported on it and it happened and they were thinking about it and then they stopped it. And to Apple, if you listen to Apple,

you know, there's no embarrassment there at them losing the project because it's like, well, we didn't say that we were going to take over the auto industry. We just were thinking about it. Yeah. Because them a lot of money to do that. Yeah, sure. But you know, when you've got they have a lot of money in the bank. Yeah, really. So everything is. All right. A couple more Tesla news before we jump into other companies.

The UAW, the United Auto Workers Union, has set its sight on Tesla. They have already warned us about that after their big wins against the big three. They said that they're going to look at the non-unionized automakers in the U.S. And obviously, Tesla is a big one. And what happened this week is that now they are taking advantage of the layoffs of the low morale at Tesla lately. And someone sent me this notice that...

was apparently posted in the Gigafactory Texas bathroom. And it says, this list is off of thousands of employees. Brutal, unfair, and unnecessary. Our arts goes out to our affected coworkers whose lives have been suddenly upended.

share how Tesla layoffs are affecting you and your coworkers. And they put a link for that. This moment is a call to action for those of us who want to build a more sustainable workplace at Tesla. Without a union, Tesla has free reign to take this kind of brutal action whenever they find it convenient. That's why workers at Tesla and across the auto industry are forming unions. Unions are workers sticking together to achieve success and stability, providing for our families and building for our future.

With a union, we can negotiate stronger rights and protection in an unforeseeable contract instead of the company having total control over our working condition and our lives. Taking action now by asking co-workers to sign an authorization card to form a union at Tesla. And then there's a scanning a QR code that's there. That all seems pretty reasonable to me. Obviously, UAW is not perfect. A ton of corruption scandal of money wasted and all that.

But they have changed their whole leadership lately and they've done some pretty impressive work with the big tree, as we previously mentioned, especially when it comes to working condition, work life's balance and pay. So all things that I'm sure Tesla employees would be interested to look into at the very least. I'm not saying that they should be nice, but they should at least consider it.

One interesting thing about the UAW leadership is that the new president is actually the first elected president. All the previous ones were appointed by a board. And Sean Fain went to an election of all members. So that was kind of the push of them wanting to put the previous corruption scandals behind them. Interesting. I didn't know that. I didn't know he was the first elected. Yeah, first. Yeah, I was surprised when I learned that, too. Yeah.

Finally, I want to mention that Tesla has officially handed its sort of hiring freeze that came with the layoffs in April and May.

They already sort of handed it last month. We reported on them starting to hire for AI and robotics, which was the only department that was not hit by the layoffs. So it was not too surprising that there was not an hiring freeze there. But this week I saw hundreds of new positions, and mainly in service and sales, which have been affected by the layoffs. So Tesla's going to rehire probably some of the people that it laid off and hire new people too.

So this is just a notice that this lays back. Oh, yeah. And Robstown, Texas to the Leeds Yarmouth Finery has also listed a bunch of new openings. All right. That lithium thing is interesting. I want to see where that goes for sure.

Yeah, I mean, Elon has kind of pooh-poohed it a little bit lately, saying that it's not as useful as it was supposed to be just because of, you know, price, lithium prices going down. And China, the meeting, it did mention that China is extremely good at refining lithium. So they're not too concerned about it unless, you know, there's a degradation of the relationship between the U.S. and China. And we've seen a lot of protectionist effort on both sides recently.

All right, before we jump into other news, let's talk a little bit about the Electric American Solar Challenge. All right. So, yeah, this summer in July, basically starting in July 12th in Bowling Green, Kentucky, where the Corvette Museum track is, we're doing the Electric Formula Sun Grand Prix.

Basically, the kids, so this will be about 40 colleges are going to bring their solar cars out to compete. We're going to start the scrutineering July 13th to July 15th. And the actual race is going to be July 16th and July 18th. Again, that's in Kentucky at the Corvette Museum, Bowling Green. Closest airports if you're flying out, probably Nashville or Louisville to the north.

Then after that, starting Friday, July 19th, we're going from Nashville and we're racing on the roads. So the Grand Prix is kind of the...

um you know the uh where the the cars uh qualify and you know the places where they start so um on friday july 19th all the way to um saturday july 27th um they're gonna race cross country from all the way from uh nashville to i believe uh wyoming so that's gonna be kind of crazy um so if you're anywhere st louis

along the path and you can see it on the website that's linked in the show notes. Come out, come see some cars, some kids who are about to get rich, but they're still in college building solar cars. So it's a great opportunity. You know, if you have some donation money, that also helps. But Electrek is proud to be sponsoring for the second year in a row. And we hope to do it for at least,

the next four years we'll say. It sounded like an Elon. We just said the same thing. I don't know exactly what to say. It just sounded like an Elon prediction. A billion, a billion years. A million years is what we hope. All right. Let's talk about Ford a little bit because they basically gave up on their Model E program for dealers this week and the

You said that all the dealers can now sell electric vehicles. So Ford has been in a fight with their dealers for a little bit. We've noted several times at Electric that we think that, you know, not all of them, but generally speaking, third-party dealers, franchise dealers are a bit of an obstacle to EV adoptions because they want to sell what's in their lot, obviously. And, you know, to be fair, there's not that many EVs on their lot. So they don't focus on that.

Ford tried to change that. A lot of automakers have attempted a bunch of different programs to help on that front. But for the most part, it's very costly. That's the main reason. It's very costly for these dealers. They require to sell EVs. They require some training. They require having a charging station at the location. And these things are expensive. And Ford shifted the burden to the dealers. So if I remember correctly...

uh, some numbers here when, uh, the program first started. So, sorry, I'm just not finding the actual, I'm, I'm a little iffy on this cause you know, on the one hand, the dealers are, uh,

you know, it's better to open it up to more dealers. But on the other hand, dealers don't know what they're talking about with electric cars. And it's like the more training or requirements you can put on them, probably the better. Because I've never encountered a car dealer who knows more about the car they're selling me than I do. An electric car they're selling me. Yeah.

Yeah, so the numbers is that after a year, so the program launched in 2022. And then after a year, they had only 50% of the dealers that enrolled in it. So that's, but that's still almost like 2000 of them. So it's, there's a lot of four dealers out there. So yeah, and then after that, you know, the

They've been negotiating with them for a while and then they couldn't get enough of them on board. So they just gave up and said, all right, you can still sell it because the incentive from Ford is like, you're not going to get the Lightning. You're not going to get a Banky if you don't enroll that program, deploy the charging station, get your staff educated on these. And they did their best. And then now they said no. It's a bit controversial for the reason you said, but also from the dealer's perspective.

Now, those that did enter the program did spend the hundreds of thousands of dollars in it are kind of frustrated and like, wait, like they're going to get to sell them and they didn't do that, that you forced us to do. So, but at the same time, Ford's argument is like, but Ford seems to be open to maybe some kind of resolution on that front. But they do say at the same time, and I think that's a good point, is like,

you're better set to sell EVs now in the future and EVs is the big thing that's coming and already here too so you're you have a competitive advantage over those other guys too which I think is fair

And they all got to sell electric cars last year when they were gouging prices by adding 40 grand onto the price of the car. So really, they made their money back. Yeah. And especially in 2022. So I think that that went down a lot in 2023, especially with Ford. Ford took some initiatives on that front to prevent that. But yeah, in 2021, 2022, yeah, there was a lot of that going around.

Maybe they made their money back already. Most likely. Lucid CEO said something interesting this week about the air. He said that the efficiency now is getting close to five miles per kilowatt hour, which if you know anything about efficiency in electric cars, especially a car of that size. Yeah, big car. Not the biggest, but powerful. Yeah, powerful too.

Five miles per kilowatt hour is really impressive. I mean, you have some cars that hit like around four miles per kilowatt hour right now and even much smaller car than this. And that alone is impressive. Like I think four miles per kilowatt hour is where things start to get very interesting. Five miles and he's talking about another target because they have achieved five miles. They're talking about a target of six miles. That was at the Evercore ISI, a global clean energy transmission summit this year.

Yeah, that is crazy. I have been able to get 200 watt hours a mile or even under 200 watt hours a mile on the freeway in my 2,800 pound roadster. Two seater roadster. Yes. Still impressive because that is a 2008 nine car. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, this is driving it not at 80 miles an hour at like, you know, 50 or something, but that's still pretty good. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I'm interested about Lucid. Like, I'm obviously, financially speaking, not in a great situation, but it looks like they are, you know, sticking out there. And I haven't driven the Lucid yet, so I'm actually seeing if I can get one for a road trip coming up at the end of the month so I can form a better opinion on it. Yeah, you know, the thing is, their tech and their packaging is really impressive. Like, if you've seen the...

the motors and the battery packs and the controllers and everything they have. They have demos whenever they go to some event and they're all really, really well packaged, just very small, uh, efficient power to weight ratio of the motors and everything is very high. Uh, and I think they're ahead of everybody on all of that, but, uh,

the issue with that is that a lot of that kind of doesn't matter that much because if, you know, you're getting a motor that's 98.5% efficient instead of 97.9% efficient, it's, it's really not that huge of a difference. So it's, it's good for like,

you know, potentially selling powertrains to other companies and things like that. But then the issue of putting all that great tech into a car and then marketing the car and all of that stuff, that's the sort of stumbling block that has come up against them. Not that they're bad cars, they're great cars. It's just that, you know, $100,000 sedans are still hard to sell in the US. Yeah. Yeah.

All right. One more piece of news to discuss, and then we're going to jump into the comment section. So if you guys have any questions, you can put them in the comments right now. Whatever app you're listening to, YouTube, X, Facebook, whatever, we're going to get to them in a few minutes. It can be about the subject that we just discussed today, Tesla shareholder meaning, for dealership, whatever. Or it can be a different subject in the EV space that you want our opinion on from set GB&I.

Last thing I want to discuss, though, is Lotus achieving an impressive charge rate with the EMEA. Do you guys know how we pronounce that? EMEA? EMEA? Yeah, I think. Yeah, so Lotus is making a little bit of a comeback in electric vehicles with...

Some new supercars, super SUVs that they are doing. And they just released something interesting here that was apparently verified by a third-party consulting firm, P3. So it's the Amaya achieving a 10% to 80% charge rate.

On the 400 kilowatt station, 600 amp in only 14 minutes to a 10 to 80% in 14 minutes, which is pretty impressive. They achieved a peak power of 402 kilowatt and an average charge rate of 331 kilowatts. That's pretty wild. That's crazy because that's higher than any other. 331 kilowatts is more than any other car peaks at. Yeah.

Yeah. Cause even the take hand peaks, it was supposed to peak at three 50, but it actually peaks at three 20 or something or two 80. I don't know. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. I mean, there's not a ton of, I'll see a 400 kilowatt stations out there, but maybe in Europe, maybe. Well, and we'll see, we'll see that as, as time goes on, you know, maybe there will be more of them once there's cars that matter that, that can actually take it, you know?

I think they posted the entire session, speedrun of the session. Yeah. This is impressive. It's better than the Ionic 5, which I had previously declared the charging champion with its 5% to 80% in 18 minutes.

but it also shows that you know this is such a huge increase in charging speed but the practical difference is four minutes which makes me think that really we're we're just about there when it comes to ev charging like dc charging and more it's more about making sure that we have enough high power stations deployed uh and we just get every car out there up to the 200 250 plus kilowatt um

level for for charging. Once we do that, I just don't really see it doesn't seem like a barrier to me. You know, road tripping in an EV at this point with the best with the best stuff that's available, at least. Yeah, I agree with you. I think it's mainly a solid issue is the infrastructure at this point that we need to grow. And making sure that the next bolt is more than 50 kilowatts.

Yeah, and also maybe- 54. Yeah, 64 would be nice. Also making sure maybe a little bit more of a majority between all the charge port location and things like that would help too. Obviously, this is a problem now with the supercharger being opened up to other automakers. Just a lot more maybe standardization that would be useful also. All right, let's jump into the comments here. All right, E4 Electric, a friend of the show.

I met him at a couple of car events. I've never seen so many people kiss Elon's ring. He continues, "Do you guys think it's ethical for any of your staff to own any of the automaker industry stock?" Obviously, we all do. So yes, it's ethical. My kind of question is that if you know the answer already. Yeah, he's not- I do have one share of Tesla.

And also, I have a ton of share of Tesla. And I think you could make the argument that I'm one of the most critical people about Tesla. That's true. I don't think it's a real issue. Everyone is biased to a certain degree. As long as you disclose your biases, there's no... Yeah. And also, I feel like it's a little bit...

big headed that you think you can move the markets with your, you know, like, hey, you know, I don't like Tesla for doing this. And like, OK, I mean, we're all we're all like not we're not day trading on our news stuff. We're all long all of our EV and green energy stocks. So that's kind of our take on it. Carl in San Diego should regulators start forming rules for EVs that encourage adoption of small battery, lower impact vehicles, either by penalizing large battery luxury cars or incentivizing small or do both.

I mean, the one thing is there yet. Yeah. I think the biggest incentive is the big batteries cost a lot and smaller batteries cost a lot less. So the, you know, the capitalism component. We already there price-wise to this most incentive price cap to that kind of plays into that. Like,

You cannot easily fit like a 200 kilowatt hour battery pack in a car that costs less than 50. What is it in the US? It's $80,000 for a truck and 55 for a sedan. It's not easy to do. Yep. Then again, California actually is doing the opposite of this in the

uh much ballyhooed uh electric car uh requirement for 2035 they also say that you have to have a minimum battery size and i think it's minimum battery range and it has to be i forget if it's 150 or 200 i think it's 200 and i actually sent feedback saying no that's crazy like people should be able to buy an electric car that's under that's 120 miles or something like that so

Yeah, I agree with that concept, but also, you know, we kind of aren't there yet. So yeah, infrastructure needs to catch up as well. So Carl at San Diego is going on a little bit of a ramp. The sick fans expressing their adoration for WLAN was pathetic. People really believe it's second coming. SEC should have shut down Tesla's spending money to bully shareholders. Tesla is a sinking ship. How do you maintain ownership of AGI at Science Fiction?

yada yada I do think there's an interesting point about the spending money on the on this specifically like if I was Elon at the very least I would ask my competition package to be reduced by the amount of money that Tesla had to spend on this I think that would be fair sure uh because honestly I mean it's his fault like that would have never happened if this had proper governance and that's the reason why

He's the reason why there's no proper compensation. But that's, I mean, by how much did they have to spend? I mean, unless we talk about the lawyer's fees. We can talk about that too, yeah. Yeah. One thing that he might have done, and this is, I had a conversation with a real business guy, a family friend who's a real business guy, and he's owned big companies and he's very rich. And his take was, when you're in a situation where you just fired a whole bunch of people,

because you need to get costs down for your company, don't you think that maybe the optics of taking a $56 billion plan and not deferring it, he could just say, you know what, this is compensation that I know I'm due, but maybe I'll defer it by a couple of years because we're in a really rough spot right now and I just had to fire everybody. Like that would be the right, kind of the right thing to do. But in this situation, he instead just continued on a rant for a long time afterwards.

Which with enough money to pay those 14,000 people six figure salaries for 40 years. I just need to keep saying that. And I think that those people are more worthwhile to the company. Those 14,000 very smart people who've done very successful things with the company are definitely more useful than one person. And that's always going to be the case.

Yeah. And the shareholders disagree with that. Apparently, I've made that argument several times with them. And a lot of them believe that without Elon, Tesla is basically dead. Even though he said the exact contrary to that during the... He was asked by one shareholder that question. It was like, can you talk about, praise some of your employees and talk about what would happen if you...

weren't at Tesla if you just hit by a bus. And he did it. He couldn't. At first, he couldn't. He was thinking about it a long time, which is such a weird thing. Elon has been the de facto sole techno king, leader. What he says goes at Tesla. So 2008 to now, so a good 16 years at this point.

And he was already super influential before that. So if throughout that time he hasn't built out an organization that could survive without him and try without him, it's his failure. There's no doubt about it. And after thinking about it, he did say, to be fair, that he think that Tesla would do well without him. But he said that hopefully he's an accelerator to that.

Yeah, but I think he has to say both of those things. He has to say the company will do well without him. And he has to say that it does better with him because he's trying to argue for 56 billion. And if he's been there for 16 years and he knows all of these people personally and works with them every day, which he doesn't because he's not paying attention to Tesla at all. He's on Twitter all the time.

If he did have these good relationships with all these people, he could name, he could rattle off 20 names real fast of employees that have done incredible things and say, look, this is just an incomplete list. All of you are wonderful, but I just want to say just right off the top of my head, I like this and this and that. And they've all been so crucial to the organization and I value all of your input.

Yeah, because he was specifically the guy that was specifically asking, like, you know, he said a bunch of employees, you know, praise you. Could you praise some of them? And he couldn't name one. Jake's online just commented right now. What we just said, it's not 56 billion. It was 2.3 billion of 2018 shares. So that was in counter argument to what you just said. So that's true to a certain degree. But I think...

what the argument that Jim was making, it was more like it takes these shares and I'll take this dilution and Tesla could go to add the market, you know, fundraising instead. And that would be $56 billion or so, like whatever, whatever it would be. And it's, and it is,

Even if it's not cash out of Tesla's pocket, and obviously it's not. Yeah, it would reduce their ability to fundraise if they need to. It reduces shareholder value. It reduces the value of potential dividends that end up going to the shareholder. And the whole point of profits in a corporation is to eventually return those profits to the shareholder, either through buybacks or through dividends. And if they have $56 billion less to do that because they've given this much stock to a...

you know, yes, it's not just cash in the pocket of Elon, of, uh, of Elon or of the company. But, you know, if we think about the way all this money can be pushed around to the financialization of the markets, it's still $56 billion from essentially from the shareholders. Exactly. All right, let's move on. We've got quite a few to get through. Um, X can't make robots. That's an interesting comment. Uh, they have a lot of bots though. Right.

12.3% is optimistic on FSD and there's going to be a massive AI data centers later this year, plus eventual hardware five. How optimistic are you on RoboTaxi now, if not on hardware three, four, but hardware five? I think we've talked about this in the past, Fred, what's your take on that?

Oh, yeah, we should have mentioned that, that Elon did say, I don't remember the exact timing, did he say later this year or next year, they're going to move, they're going to start focusing more on hardware 4, on like making, distancing the improvement between hardware 3 and hardware 4, meaning on the software side, taking advantage of the higher power in the hardware 4.

So, yeah, I mean, I do see a path to Tesla achieving self-driving with a dedicated platform like Robotaxi. We've seen Waymo doing that. We've seen other companies achieving a certain level in level four of autonomy with dedicated systems. So I'm sure Tesla can do it, especially using their experience of last few years with their system. I am worried about though the

you know, limits the ceiling for Oddware 3, ceiling for Oddware 4, and then, you know, RoboTaxi seems to be based on Oddware 5. So,

you know i think i'll wear five i'm pretty confident it would achieve level four autonomy maybe level level five hardware three though i do strongly believe that level five is unachievable despite elon promising it i think that's a big liability for tesla uh i think it's you know something that tesla can get over that their current you know state of you know it's a big company now a lot of money they can probably you know make that right there's a degree uh but yeah

Yeah, it is a problem. It is a problem. This last promise level five to people that I don't think will get it. I think they promised level five to hardware two or 2.5. Yeah. And then they upgraded it. So that's that's the thing. So that's one of the path. I think Tesla, you know, and that's why I think it's so stupid not to make the FSD transfers permanent, because that is one of the path to not this being such a liability, because if you do that, you're going to switch more and more people to hardware for.

And that will lead to the liability of our word three and the promise you made on that being less and less and less over time. But right now, like

there could be a thing like well I mean there have been lawsuits about it already but it could be like a big class action lawsuit that would force Tesla to reimburse all orderware three cars out there like it's I don't see that as outside of possibilities yeah there are multiple lawsuits and one of them went it got ruled that it's going to court this week yeah

All right. A question. Have you guys heard about the Finnish charging company, ChemPower? They are super popular in Europe and now have a factory in Durham, North Carolina, and are selling megawatt charging systems in Europe. I have heard of them. I think I saw them at a couple conferences. What about you guys? I don't know anything about them, but I have heard of them. Yeah, I've heard of them too, but I'm not super familiar with it. I think they're more geared toward commercial energy vehicles. We kind of answered the hardware five stuff.

Big question is, will the auto windshield wipers ever be solved? That is a big question. It's solved in pre-vision vehicles. The rain sensor does solve the problem. It actually was solved in the 90s, I think. Every car on the road, it's solved. Right. Yeah. I was just driving the Audi. Sorry, I cannot talk about that. Q6. Q6.

You can't talk about being at it. You just don't know you're... No, I think I can talk about being at it. I just, I cannot talk about, the only thing I cannot talk about is driving experience. And I'm thinking that falls into that for some reason. Yeah, it does. All right. Carl in San Diego, I think we used up all of his questions for the month.

Let's move on. No disrespect, Carl. We love you. We love you. Just more concise. Let's say 10 per show. All right. Solar car question. How many kilowatts of solar is possible to get on a car? If the Lucid is getting such great efficiency, maybe they should add some solar and get some free extra range. Great question. We have the Aptera situation. But

a lot of people don't realize how much actual like square footage of solar is necessary to power a car um I think a square meter is about um a kilowatt so you're talking about you know you're talking about bike power if you cover a full car you're going to get enough power to power like a electric bike so an average thinking yeah go ahead it's about 20 kilowatts

to move a car down the freeway, give or take, depending on which car you're using. But it's about 20 kilowatts to go highway speed down the freeway. So obviously a solar powered car doesn't need to have enough to power it all the time because it has batteries. But just think about the difference. Cars use a lot, a lot of energy. In most, in a lot of houses, the car will use more energy than the whole house, depending on how much you commute. And if you're using a gas car, an electric car. So,

it's a lot of energy being used and you just don't have the, the area for it. Most of the time, unless you're talking about upteras or something that's extremely small and efficient and all that stuff. But, but that's where I think Ben has the good of the right ideas. Like has, uh,

companies make more and more efficient vehicle, solar makes more and more sense on the car. But solar always makes more sense where it's optimized, which is stationary on the roof or things like that. On the roof of an actual building. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. It's great when like you go to an airport and you park your car there for a week or two.

And instead of losing power while you're there, you're going to get a full charge theoretically if you're there long enough. So it's still, it makes a lot of sense. I don't know why it's not, you know, it's used in Aptera, obviously, you know, some Priuses and Kias have had it just for cooling the car.

It would be nice if some company got serious about it. It's often just costly. They have to run more wires up there. They've got to take up space on the roof where people want a glass roof or something like that. So that's the issue is cost, I think, more than anything.

All right. Bike Angelus says, can you publish a used Tesla buyer's guide highlighting all the hardware changes that have occurred and how to identify all the variants, which are ideal, fair prices? That would be a no. That's a lot of work. Yeah. I mean, Tesla doesn't do the model year thing, which is the problem for what you just said, which, you know, I kind of agree with Tesla with the logic of like when a change is ready and it's positive, the production put it in there right away. That makes a ton of sense.

I like the stuff for that, but it does complicate the buying experience. Um, I mean, it's not impossible. What did you say? Maybe we can look into it doing something that's not, you know, maybe not all the changes, but, uh, the, the more significant one and then get changed. I mean, a lot of people, for example, in the North wanted the E pump. Uh, so when they eat pumpkin, that, that was a big deal. And so the, these things maybe are worth looking into. We'll look into it though.

Yep. And in the meantime, there's always Tesla Motors Club forums. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe maybe we throw some AI at some of the published Tesla stuff. Just steal it. Yeah. Just do it.

All right, that's all the questions. All right. Well, thanks, everyone, for listening to the show this week. Thanks to Jamie for joining us for a special guest because he's one of our local Tesla experts. And if you did enjoy the show, please give us a thumbs up, a like, whatever it is on the app you're watching right now. You can also subscribe and hit the notification button to see whenever we go live, which is generally at 4 p.m. Eastern time on Fridays, other than some exception. And we'll see you same time, same place next week. Have a good one.

Bye-bye. Bye-bye.