Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Hey guys, this is Liz Kambay. This is Nikki Collin. What up guys, this is Eppie Sarkin. Hey, this is Imani Lee. Hey, this is Jordan Canada. This is Asia Wilson. Welcome to the WNBA Nation. Oh, welcome in. Welcome in. Welcome to WNBA Nation.
The season is just around the corner. We are back from our little mini break between the college season and the regular WNBA season. And by we, I mean me, your host, Logan Jones, and our host, Steve Schwartzman. Steve, what's going on? Hey, yeah, I guess you could call it spring break. I don't know.
We kind of decided to just let April breathe a minute. It's, it's the, so the four WNBA hosts, uh, nation hosts, they all have real jobs outside of the podcast. And April is the annual, we all have to like put in a lot of office hours and make sure we keep our real jobs so that for the summer we could do the podcast. Yeah. Cause March is a lot and the summer is a lot.
And it's just, we, we missed you guys. I hope that, I hope that you guys missed us. It's nice to be back on. We have a ton of stuff that we can cover today. Obviously we will not get to all of it, but we've got future episodes or the season starts where we will hopefully touch on more.
Before we get into any of that, we have all the show plugs that we want to get out of the way for you. And because I have the honor of hosting today, I also have the honor of delegating all of those to Steve. Steve, could you tell people where to find us? Yes. Head to WMENation.com. First and foremost, that's going to connect you to just about all the things that we have to offer. Of course, you can find us over on Twitter while it still exists. Yeah.
But we're over there at WNB Nation pod. Similar over on Facebook. You can, of course, check us out anywhere that your podcast can be found. If you listen anywhere that you have a rating system, we'd love a five-star review if possible. And a comment. Let us know what you like about the show, what we can do to make the show even better for you. The website will also connect you to our episode lineup. We've got a blog where we kick off podcasts.
Some pieces here and there. Kyle was, was working hard on his, his draft come up and performed fairly well. I'll say, uh,
Always does. Did a decent job into the, the, the draft draft order. Yeah. When it came to that. So I was really happy for that. It's been a minute since we've, we've done the live stream on Twitch, but we are connected to that. We are hoping to try and kick that up a little bit. That said this season, we're looking to do a lot more stuff over on playback. If you want to come have a watch party with us, playback allows you to do essentially a live watch party together. Come,
Come talk with us while we watch the games. It's a good time over there. Connect over to our store, get some sick merch. Uh, we're looking to put together some additional designs through the rest of the season. Uh, we'd love to see pictures of anything that you guys are kicking off there and just overall, uh, stay connected with us. Um,
And, oh, yeah, TikTok. Join us on TikTok because you may hear snippets from the show and other general insights. We're hoping to ramp that up as well. We've got a lot of stuff planned for the summer. It's kind of a part of why we let April rest a little bit so that we could go full bore here. But there you have it. So, yeah, wabnation.com.
Thank you, Steve, for all the show plugs. We, of course, also welcome all of your five-star reviews on any podcast platform that offers that sort of thing. Helps us get out there and get discovered. In fact, we like them so much that we read them on the air, and we have a new one for you that's been waiting a long time. Hooray!
Uh, and so, uh, and so we're going to do that now at the top of the show to make sure that they get their props. Um, and it's, it's actually one of my favorite reviews we've had in a while because, uh, it's, it's from a user. I love the W and the title is pleasant surprise. Yeah. We love that. Pleasant surprise. They came in with expectations that were low and they left at, all right, I'll read it for you. Uh,
I have to admit, I was skeptical of listening to men talk about women's basketball, but it was one of the few podcasts on The W that seemed interesting, so I gave it a shot. And I love it. When they talk about other leagues, they include women's sports, which is what I was looking for. A podcast that highlights and uplifts non-male athletes. Their knowledge, insight, and love for The W is truly appreciated.
Thank you very much. I love the W. I really, really like that. That's awesome. That is an excellent review. Please, if you haven't yet reviewed our show, please send in a five-star review. We'd love to read more of those on the show. If we get so many that we just have to fill an entire episode of doing that and patting ourselves on the back, we will absolutely do that. Boom. Without further delay, let's launch into current news around the league.
there is a lot going on. The, the league officially kicks off in, I believe nine days as of the time of this recording, there's a lot of headlines bouncing around. There's a lot of hubbub. There's a lot of buzz, uh, just going, going around WNBA, Twitter and preseason games, practices, rosters and things of that nature. Uh,
But we want to take kind of a we'll take the 30,000 foot view approach here first before we dive into maybe specific teams that we want to talk about. I know in the prerecord, we were talking a little bit about what the vibe coming into this season felt like and sort of the business side of the sport and whether or not we thought WNBA Commissioner Kathy Engelbert was doing a good job.
And I think that's a fair question to kind of open up to the floor on Mike. And so, Steve, I hope you can kick off this discussion. I know you've got some thoughts. What do you think of the job that Kathy has done in her tenure as the commissioner? And how do you think it's impacted how we feel going into the 2023 season? This has been an interesting case because I would say the needle for me leans to the right. It's generally positive.
Um, especially when you look at what she as commissioner has been faced with since this kicked off, we have to remember that she joined the league as commissioner and then very quickly, not right away, but very quickly got embroiled with a pandemic that heavily affected two full seasons. And, um, in fact, I'd say we're even still kind of feeling the adverse effects of, of what that is today. But, um, yeah,
I think there are things that concern me. And what's frustrating is a lot of the more concerning, frustrating, or you might even say poor decisions that have been made with her at the helm, whether or not they've been directly her decision, but with her at the helm, have been the fan-serving style decisions. Stuff like the website and the app
aren't really well constructed to be user friendly. Like the UX, uh, theology, you know, was, isn't very strong. Um, there's questions about, you know, league pass and the accessibility when it comes to games, we still don't have a lot of heavy, like confidence in whether or not they care about the all-star game is the commissioner's cup, uh, as buoyed up as it should be. Are we handling coverage? Well, uh,
Obviously, expansion is going to be another big one, but I have an additional point to make about that in a second. And I think that's kind of what's been of heavy interest at this point. I will say, overall, what's been the general frustration for me is that the WNBA has been handed many, many things to bite into, a lot of podiums they can launch themselves off of.
And it doesn't seem like they've put in the effort and awareness to capitalize on those things. Case in point, we're coming off of an NCAA season that has expanded the growth, at least of social discussion of women's basketball more than nearly any other season of a sport has in a very long time. It was an absolute boon for the sport. And again,
You I'm not convinced the WNBA has done enough to bounce off of that. Like you could go into a lot of the deep conversations, but on top of the fact that like they didn't run commercials during the mark during the NCAA tournament.
That should have absolutely been the WNBA's name should have been ubiquitous anywhere. You should have seen them as much as you saw Coke Zero during the tournament. Sorry to interject, but remember when the NBA was doing its bubble playoffs at the same time as the WNBA season and because of running concurrently, you had a lot of NBA support I think visibly for the WNBA people were wearing WNBA jerseys and stuff like that. And the amount of interest that
that the league garnered just from that was so noticeable that you would think every other time basketball is in the spotlight, WNBA would be there to put your product in front of them. Yeah, exactly. That's my, not to echo everything you just said, because our podcast listeners just now heard it, but my, my takeaway was very similar. And that's, I think the league is in a pretty good spot right now, but they have an incredible product and, and the,
I think the groundswell of support that the product deserves is not as big as it should be. And that's a marketing failure. And as you said, kind of a fan focused. I think Kathy's done a fantastic job at kind of securing the foundation of the league in terms of things that affect owners and players.
But one quadrant of the formula is the consumer. And that's in the case of entertainment and sports, that's the fans. And fans, you know, New Jersey's a couple years ago, you know, instead of templated jerseys, I think that was a great move. They've done some things to enhance kind of the excitement throughout the season. But as you said, you know, app and...
The league pass and the all-star weekend and just all of the logistical things that affect fans trying to follow and be into the league. There's still too much of a barrier to entry for someone who wants to get into the league. Frankly, the reason we created the podcast was to solve this problem. We were trying to get into the league and we were like, where do we go to get the down low on every one of these teams? What should I know about the narratives going into the season? There was nowhere to go.
since beginning this podcast, we've kind of come to recognize a lot of our fellow podcast websites and content creators as being a huge part of kind of the WNBA environment. We love the Wind Sider guys, the HiHoops post, and I'm spacing on all the other ones. But we promote them all the time because I think they're kind of an essential companion to being a fan of this league. And I sort of want...
the commissioner of the league to make it possible. And I can't believe I'm about to say this for there to be more casual WNBA fans. I think there's, there's way too many casual NBA fans to the point where it's bothering me, but the W could use some passive, like, Oh, it's on at the Buffalo wild wings. Then I'm tuning in because I know who Brianna Stewart is. And I know the livery are big deal this year. Yeah. I don't know why I know that. I just do. We need more of those types of fans.
And the thing about it is the college season did that. The college season, like fans, there are a lot of people who watched and a lot of people, 10 million people watched the championship game. And people need to sink in. That's not a small number compared to a lot of other main sports organizations in the United States who were televised. It's a huge number.
And you know a lot of those are going to be passive watchers. You know a good amount of those – not a majority amount, but a good amount of those are going to be casual fans. But here's the thing. A lot of people who aren't leaned in heavily to the NCAA, they know who Kalen Clark is. They know who Angel Reese is. They know who Haley Van Lith is. They know who Don – there are so many names coming out of the woodwork there.
One thing that has helped create narratives to allow the, the MNBA to be such a strong boon in the American digital zeitgeist is like the onset of the super team, right? That's been since 2010, I would say since the, the Miami heat situation in 2010, 2011, uh,
That has been the kicking point for the – it took them kind of to that next level of popularity where the interest became so much more than the game within itself, what happens on the court. You and I have talked endlessly about with MMA fans, free agency is almost their playoffs. They care more about that than they do the sport itself. Oh, 100%.
We finally have that dichotomy in the league, that parody, that we have two teams who, when you look at the roster inside and out, look like juggernauts. There's a lot of narratives there and things that tie to a lot of narratives across the league. And...
I don't know. It should just feel a bit more monumentous. Maybe some of it's how that's scheduled. Maybe some of it is just that's a part of waiting for a season to kick off, or maybe I haven't just been paying attention to people talking about things, but I think there should be a higher kickoff. And you've made a really good point about like groundswell. The WNBA in the last several years has seen steady growth and steady growth is good growth. It's steady growth is healthy growth. That's important. And,
But we should see more peaks in that graph at this point. And it's some of the minute decisions that have been made have made it so you can't quite get those things over the hump. And sometimes you have to make those decisions. And that's what's been interesting. I know all of us at the podcast, all of the people in our sphere on socials, we're all pumped for the season to start.
But I think we all see the difference between like college women's basketball has a fantastic product. They know how to capitalize on that product in March because they know how to create a spectacle. Does the WNBA know how to create spectacle right now? I'm not totally convinced they do. I think with a Vegas team that added Candice Parker and New York being the hottest story going into the season in terms of their roster construction and picking up Bree Stewart, they beat
Every other sports league salivates over having a big, good team in New York. And the WNBA has one, and it kind of just feels...
Like it has every other, again, like we've been doing this for what? Six seasons now. Yeah. It feels like pretty much every other season. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it should feel like this one is able to capitalize on the spectacle or at least promise spectacle in the coming year. And I don't feel like that promise is being made by the league just yet. To be clear, having watched the post season in the WNBA over the last couple of years, there will be spectacular moments in the coming year.
I just want the league's marketing and efforts leading up to the season to give me more a sense that there will be, instead of just knowing that there will be because I've watched it. Yeah, I think the lack of any lack of pandemonium that's coming into this has nothing to do with the product itself. I think the product's still exciting. I think there's still a lot of positive energy coming into the season, but
I think it's just in that situation that we're starting to understand that the product is
is so has so much more potential for growth than maybe the league offices themselves do not realize. It's almost in that case of like, are you still playing the small potatoes game? Cause you could be playing like a higher, you could, you could be way star Roy cohing this thing if you really want to be. And there's a higher shot there. Now, um, the one point I did want to make on this before we call it out, cause it's, it's, I think it's a solid comparison, uh,
The NWSL kicked off in 2012. They're coming to their 11th, 12th season as a league. They just announced that they – when I started paying attention to the NWSL at any level was four years ago in 2019. At that point, the league had nine teams.
The league just announced that in 2026, they'll be adding two more additional teams on top of expansion teams. They already have coming in place for next season, which I believe are in Sacramento and Salt Lake city.
So you're looking at a team that less than 15 years into the league will be at 16 teams. They have four teams already in the works, not at once. They're gradually doing this two-year groundswell. And these have been very healthy expansions. You're talking about Angel City and San Diego Wave. San Diego Wave made a strong linebacker.
deep playoff run and are regularly selling out venues. Angel City sold out all of their ticket packages and they're owned by
Everyone in sad right now. So very, very healthy kickoffs. There's already very positive energy here in Utah about the Royals coming back. And they're looking at cities that are bringing heavy energy into this league. There's a high level of interest for people to get involved with the NWSL. And NWSL teams are expanding in a way that tells you that these teams are mainstays.
with high potential for success. What does the NWSL understand that the WNBA currently does not? Because I understand the trepidation to go big on expansion because the WNBA very quickly expanded from eight to 16 teams and that quick and kind of scrappily planned choice is
We're still feeling some effect of that. A lot of teams folded. A lot of teams had to move. A lot of teams had to move multiple times. There were a lot of frustrations across that dichotomy.
But we're in a situation where we can find places to expand and places that want to expand and want to do it in a healthy and a high-quality way because we're watching them do it with another women's league to high level. You're seeing an element where the NWSL is going to start capitalizing on this growth and may overtake the WNBA in terms of momentum on this side of sports.
I don't know if this is a question. I don't know if this is just a thought that I wanted to open up discussion to, but that's been my big question. Like, what does the NWSL understand that the WNBA doesn't? Because I keep, I keep seeing the like SpongeBob Patrick meme, like of Squidward watching them running outside. Like I keep seeing, like getting this feeling of like, what is it that like they have this hunger for,
Like they have this hunger for expansion. And after four or five years, we're still hearing Kathy Engelbert say like, well, let's slow it down and let's like hear things out and see things that at some point we actually have to feel confident that we're going to be growing.
So I don't know if there's any openness to that. Maybe I just have to rant about it. I don't know. I've felt very much on the side of I'm okay with Kathy's patience in relation to expansion for a couple years now. It's starting to wear me out.
Yeah, it's itching a bit. That's the point. I think it's for a long, long time. It's just like, let's be smart. Let's get the CBA in place. Let's make sure that there is an overabundance of talent coming in from the college game before you spread the talent too thin in the WNBA. I think that's what needs to happen. In fact, this is a very timely time to be having this discussion, Steve, because you know, this is the week where people are going to get cut from rosters in the coming days. This is going to release about a week before the season starts.
You're going to start seeing roster cuts that aren't going to make a lot of sense, even though for the teams, it's usually about money. And you're going to say, oh, we need another team or we need another two teams or we need another four teams like that. If you're on Twitter at all, that is going to happen in the days following the drop of this episode. And my answer to that for so many years has been like, yes, there's a lot of talent out there and not a lot of roster spots. It's okay for now. Like you, you don't want to expand your,
Yeah. Yeah.
And they want to add more. Basketball is going to add the NBA to Seattle and at least one other city in the next two years. Baseball, they're moving the A's to Vegas. They're going to add at least another team or two in the next couple of years. We've gotten to the point almost where by not expanding, it kind of telegraphs to people not necessarily even following women's basketball that the league is falling behind in its momentum compared to the growth of other sports.
I don't necessarily think it's critical that the WNBA gets there first. I don't think they have to be the first league to expand to a new city and then have other sports follow. But look at what the Golden Knights and the Aces have done to Vegas as a sports city.
The Aces are a part of that. I mean, the Raiders are there now. They're going to get the A's. It's going to be at some point they're going to get the NBA. The Aces got to be a part of kind of putting a footprint into like if you're out on the strip tonight and you need something to do, one of your options is to go catch a game. That just wasn't that way for them.
Steve, how long did we grow up hearing that there would never be sports in Vegas? Because there just wouldn't be. Like the 51s was basically it. Right. So I don't know if it's critical that they be first necessarily, but look at the sort of following that you have in places like Seattle that has just been begging for an NBA team since 2008.
I think that's part of the Storms fan success. And I think if you could get into markets and introduce yourself to people who are ready for sports before other major sports get there, I think that means a lot. So for a long time, it's felt like, oh, 2024, 2025, that's about where we're looking for expansion. Well, if that was the case, we'd be announcing it today.
Like they need time to figure out. I mean, there's expansion drafts. They got to line up a stadium or build a stadium. They got to figure out which way traffic is going to flow and all sorts of other crap. And at this point, it's like if they don't announce it now, we're looking at, you know, 2026 is a long way off. Think of all the college players that are going to be a year or two into their careers by the time we get a new WNBA team.
And that's the thing. That's asking a lot of them. Yeah, and that's the thing. We talk enough about the – people have made that claim, the WMEA is the most difficult –
league to build a long standing career out of simply because there's such a finite amount of spots that we're literally releasing rookies of the year right after they win the rookie of the year award. Yeah. Like it's, it's just, yeah, should not happen. It's becoming a big issue. And the scenario with that is that's on top of,
We're about to enter into possibly two of the most monumentous draft classes we've seen in a long time, at least over a decade, where you're going to see this influx of very well-known, recognizable players.
and high-level talent coming into the league, kind of the forefront of the new faces of the league. Like, this is that next gen. You know, this is like the Gen Z era of the WNBA is going to be kicking off in a very big way with these next couple draft classes. And a lot of them don't have a guaranteed spot, right? Right now, it's weird to say that, like, Haley Van Lith may not have a guaranteed spot in the league.
Right now, as it stands, that may not be guaranteed. Which is insane. Flo J. Johnson may not have... I don't want to sidetrack this too much, but part of why that's insane is because those are players that could be making a lot of money in college. Yeah. There's not a lot of incentive to make the leap to the pros if you might not be in a team two years from now, and you're making twice the salary you'd be in pros at college. So why even...
We've got decently known names that are going to be wrestlers and not trying to end the league. Part of the problem really is when it comes down to it is they need to be able to expand the league, but they also need to be able to pay players more. And by expanding the league, that's more employees on the payroll. And they need to be able to pay players enough to keep them here in the offseason, which is a big problem. And they need to be able to entice college players to come up.
And that's the thing. Like, I understand it's difficult because you may have a chance at getting a team in the league, but not every... You're not going to... You're only going to find so many, like, of the Josiah and Mark Davis types who will fit that money. Because Josiah and Mark Davis have both said it themselves. If they could just reach into their pockets and get these players more money, they would do it. And that's, like...
It's to the point where like, they're almost willing to take every level of finding issue that they possibly can just to be like, they deserve literally with the NIL stuff kicking off, there's more restrictions on getting professional players, the money they deserve. The college players, the money that is, or the spectrum has flipped. And it's just like, that's frustrating in certain points, but,
It doesn't excuse the fact that like, when I look at it this way, as I kicked off, the NWSL is going to be in its 15th season in 2026, having amassed 16 teams. The WNBA hasn't added a team in 15 years. It's the exact amount of time, 2008, since we've seen expansion. Yes, there have been a lot of location changes. You know, we had from Tulsa to Dallas. We had from San Antonio to Vegas. We've seen some of those changes take place, but,
But it's been a really like that we've gone this long to hold off on it. If you haven't added a new team, we need the assurance. This is something that's really being leaned in heavily and just doesn't feel like that. It was like it's one of those situations that gets kind of pushed under the rug because we almost don't want to get it. It's kind of like.
It's kind of like when I, you know, my spouse and I are talking about like, hey, we might go to the park, but don't tell the kids yet. We don't know if we're going to do it for sure. And I don't want them to get super excited and think of her going to the park of like it might rain and we might not go. That's how it feels. It doesn't feel like they're generating excitement about the idea of expansion.
And I understand that there is some work going on, but we need like a really strong assurance. Like, no, please know this is happening because you're about to put the next gen of your superstars in a really bad situation. And if there's a way you want to capitalize on can't, you know, Caitlin Clark mania or Angel Reese mania or Paige Becker's mania, give them a team, give them a new team, let them be the face of an organization. Like if you actually have a chance to make some interest there,
And this kind of dives into my next point. I don't know if you had any other thoughts about the kickoff of the season. So I don't want to cut it off. Just one. And it's because you mentioned Josiah and Mark Davis by name earlier. And I'll try to keep this very, very short because this is a rant for another day. I think if there were 14 Josiahs or Mark Davises willing to invest in the league, there'd be 14 teams already.
The problem is you've got some owners that are either content with the type of money they're making off the league right now or are finally about to see some profits from the league because it has been growing and are not keen on splitting that additional ways by introducing new owners to the fold. That's a really unique thing to the WNBA. Most other sports, the owners are a united front. They're all making fabulous amounts of money.
in all sorts of different ways. And it's like the, the NBA owners, the NFL owners, it's a golden goose, right? Like they're, they're guaranteed to get a return on their investment every single year. That's just how it is. So they're all buddies for the most part, Dan Snyder aside, because he sucks. Um,
He's not known anymore, unfortunately. But I think the WNBA suffers from having kind of a rift in the type of owners who see the potential of the league if they give it the investment it deserves and the ones who want to maintain the status quo. And right now, the status quo owners outnumber the Mark Davises and Joe Sighs of the world. And until that number flips...
It's going to be very difficult for the league to grow. That's, that's the very short version of that. I think the hope is that as well. And I would almost hope that was a talking point in the offices for that, because we have to consider that the Liberty where we're a part of Dan Snyder North, which is James Dolan, that piece of bacon. And like, uh, they had to deal with that dichotomy for a while. And then,
Allegiance is shifted and they're in a much better situation because there's someone who's looking to, to make some investment, which I think is strong. And there's a lot of leagues that I look at that and I go like, I, I don't want to like disparage the name of like ownership groups or anything, but surely the sparks can find a,
big, a big mega money owner. Surely the sky can find a big money mega owner. If that's the move they were looking to make, right? If your frustration is, well, these people kind of want to take over and have so much swagger because they've got these big money owners.
We should be leaning on telling them, then you need to go find investors at the very least and become a big money organization because that's the direction we want to be heading in. The mom and pop shop thing just doesn't quite – we're not going to be in a situation we were in with the 2008 Sparks that were owned by a teacher and a former Miss America pageant. That's just not how this is going to necessarily work anymore.
you know, and there's ways to do it. The NWSL, you know, the angel city FC, is it necessarily owned by one mega billionaire, but they found a large group of heavy investors with names who are all there to support the organization. I say not mega billionaires. I mean, one of them did help create Reddit. So there are some strong names, but it's that idea of if you put, if you put pieces together, you can make those efforts. But again,
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Indeed.com slash blue wire. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. It's interesting to see what Kathy Engelbert's note is. I do want to pivot this into the point I wanted to make that I thought was interesting to you is, for one, I don't think we can necessarily have any discussion on the podcast right now and just skip over LSU, which is frustrating for the sake of Kim Mulkey alone. Like, I think...
LSU is like what they pulled off in this last season is pretty remarkable. And it's a very eclectic roster of players. I just no one likes to see Kim happy. But I my initial response to this onslaught of acquisitions that they've made.
which were as big league free agency type additions, you know, the story, you know, the way the internet itself blew up there, you're adding Haley Van Lith. You're adding Anissa Morrow. You are taking on two top 10 recruits into your freshman squad. This is going to be a pretty juggernaut roster. And I'll tell you the initial thought I had when I saw this change, these changes made, uh,
especially in the case of like Van Lith and Morrow was I'm, I'm intrigued by this because at least at the college level, I figured they'd be a little worried about what moving to a championship team where Angel Reese is going to clearly rule the roost, how this is going to affect their draft stock. Like what Haley Van Lith is the main decision maker in Louisville. She's third, maybe third choice and Anissa Morrow's maybe fourth choice, but,
Why would they want to do that? Wouldn't that hurt their draft stock in a sense when you think about how this is going to help them in that way? If you want to go in a championship, you're going to go in a championship. But going from being the top option to a third or fourth option seems weird to that. And then it hit me, Logan, I don't think they care about their draft stock.
No, I don't think so either. I think they care about their NIL stock. No, I think it's – I think they realize – They're filling their bag now. So why wait on, oh, eventually I'll hit the gold when they're hitting that now? And so I realized that that to me creates what this disparity is in growth.
is we're hitting a point now where, I mean, reset it herself on podcast. It's like, I'm making more now than a lot of top end players in the league, you know, like, and that's, you know, that's kind of the situation that we're in. And I realized like for Van Litton, for Mauro,
This helps them in that case. They're probably going to pick up some really sizable offers because of that. I haven't spoken personally to any of these players, but I don't think any of them are sitting in their locker rooms after last season going, where can I go to...
really puts me at the forefront you know like like morrow and and van lith are already names they're they're already force-fed offensive players on their respective teams who we know what they can do with the ball in their hands all the time i think what they're probably thinking is like not only like cashing in for name engine like this stuff but like i want to go where i can win and and frankly like lsu is as guaranteed as you get when it comes to college basketball i mean
Winning a single ELIM tournament of 64 two years in a row is really difficult, but LSU's stacked. And I don't think that a lot of players in the college landscape even necessarily see LSU as a villainous type team. I think lots of people probably do. I think lots of enemies of Kimoki probably do. But right now it just looks like
I mean, they came into this season promising a lot, and it kind of felt like maybe it was based on some flimsy evidence. And then they delivered. They won a championship, and they probably have a good chance to do it again. And now Van Lithus is going to be a part of that. And like you said, some big-time freshmen are going to be a part of that. I think Anissa Morrow is probably going to get buried on that roster, frankly. She might come in.
off the bench and have a 20 point game. And we're all going to remember in March, like, Oh, right. She's there. Maybe it's possible. Yeah. Like that's why I said is like right now. I, I, I definitely, I mean, it's an East and Mars, very talented. I see her as a starter. There's a point where you can make the argument that her on the starting five, is it a full on guarantee? And though I do still think she would be, but there, there's an argument for that somewhere in the ether that,
Coming from being a place where she was the A1 thing. And I think it's interesting because I think a part of what built the – I think what is part of building the Caitlin Clark mania that people are interested in, she might be that like last true bastion of being a star in the previous eons of college sports.
where one player can kind of catch people's hearts and be the face of a team. Not to say she was the only player on that team. She played with a great team. I've talked enough about Monica Zanano for people to know that. But that era is going to look a lot more LSU-centered, I think, in the future than that, which is why I think I told you when those moves came down, it's like...
The person I'm most interested in right now is Gino Ariamola because clearly he's got to be sitting there thinking, like, I have to create a monster now. Like, I have to find a way. I think this is just women's basketball catching up with, like, men's basketball and men's football. Like, the landscapes of those sports for a long, long time have been
All the best players out of high school are going to go to all the best teams. Whether it's fair or not, that's just how it's going to be. And then occasionally you will get a Bobby Wagner at Utah State or a Damien Lillard at Weber. And there are just some players who are built like that. But for the most part, or my favorite ever, the Scotty Pippen at UCA.
Yeah. You'll still get that. I think those are still going to happen. But for the most part, players are going to follow their noses to the SEC and potential big-time players.
Big time household name teams where they can get name image likeness deals and possibly some hardware in their college career. And I don't think that that's wrong. I mean, I don't blame anybody for going to Alabama or Georgia to play football. Of course, we'd love for there to be parody in college basketball because it makes for a fun tournament.
But you're going to see that. I mean, that's that's what hiring a big name coach does for you. That's why LSU brings in Kim Mulkey. It's like, look, players know who you are and they know what you can do. And in a matter of years, you're going to have a championship team on your end because of who you are. That's just that's just how college coaching is. Yeah. And that's so that's kind of what really spoke to me was that level of interest is such a strong thing. And it's going to be interesting to me.
How that capitalizes and how that's going to change other people's – the transfer portal, what I'm calling the transfer portal era of basketball is so intriguing because you are now watching college players make capital B business decisions. Yeah, it's really crazy to see kind of an experiment in like what if free agency was truly –
No, no holds barred. Just free agency is just it's just a big public pool. And you could just you could go to any corner of it you want. And then when the dust settles in the fall, we'll see who's good. Yeah, exactly. So it's that's been an interesting case.
And like, I think they've been negative on the W for a lot of pieces. There's a lot to look forward to this season. It's going to be a very, very exciting time. The season kicks off on May 19th. And I think there's certainly going to be a lot of, for us to watch. But I think it was interesting. Like we haven't had a good state of the W in a minute of just like sitting down and looking at kind of where those next pieces to help oversee what the growth spectrum is going to be. So yeah,
I think that's how the discussion we would love to hear all of your feedback, listeners and thoughts, you know, what, what really are the, those next stepping stones as far as that's considered. And what are you most exciting for excited for coming into this season, especially outside of the office? I wanted to, I,
I wanted to assure listeners, because I think we'll probably wrap this episode up with... There's one more thing I know we both want to touch on. But, of course, future episodes before the season starts, we are going to touch on our favorite storylines headed into the season, some of our team previews. I hope that we can get everybody together and do our annual awards predictions.
for the season. I know we like doing that. We'll throw that in the chat later and make sure that we get everybody's awards predictions to see how wrong we can be. But if you haven't been with us for a full season cycle before, the four of us hosts will jump on. We'll predict the playoffs one through eight and we'll predict the award winners. We'll talk about it. And that's sort of our big season preview episode that I will
I will commit to, even though the other two we haven't talked to about it yet, we were able to get that out to you guys every season. And that's a lot of fun. But I know there is something that we wanted to touch on today that is of utmost importance. Anytime Steve and I are on mic together. Really quick. I just, we're not, we don't have to talk about this. I just want to make a point. I was just, we were talking about like, there's a lot to look forward to. Just,
Guys, we're going to see Brittany Griner play basketball in several days. Yeah. Just right there alone. Like the 20, that 21st, the Mercury in the sky, I'm going to cry like a baby. A lot of people are going to cry like, but you know, and you should, and it's big story and it's important and it matters. And also Phoenix might be really good. And here's where I was going to go with that. Phoenix might be better than average this year.
And early on in the season, it's going to be like a feel-good story. Tarazi and Greiner on the court again together. This is cool. We don't know how many more times that's going to happen. I think by like 10 games into the season when they're 9-1, we're going to be like, oh, right. Remember how the last time Greiner was on a basketball court, she was playing at an MVP level? People just kind of
Don't remember that for obvious reasons. A lot has been going on, but yeah, I agree. That is, I'm excited to get back to the, to those fun filled days of everyone on the court being scared of Brittany Griner. Like everyone, there's all the happiness that there should be now because she's back. She's safe. It's fantastic. And, and you know, she's been such a huge advocate for so many important things. Uh, her presser was a great moment. Um,
to watch and all of that. So everyone is coming at Brittany Griner with a big smile on their face. Everyone's so happy to see her and they absolutely should be. And I'm excited for a whistle, for a horn to go off and everyone remembers that she's an absolute beast. And if you're not really on socials and, and you're excited to see her play in a couple of days and you don't see her on the court anywhere, it's because the dreads are gone.
I feel like we could have dedicated an entire episode to the dreads. The retirement of the Brittany Grinder. She's worn the dreads since high school.
They've always been there. The clean look still kind of – she's – Oh, I love it. It works well. It plays. But it almost – I feel like mourning the loss of the grainer drip. Yeah. Fantastic stuff. So I just wanted to make sure that was of note. There's a lot to look forward to. But yes, I cut you off. We saved proverbially the most important thing for last.
All right. If this is something you don't care about, you can skip five minutes into the future. And I won't necessarily begrudge you for it, but let's be honest. There's no one out there that doesn't care about this. The 2023-2024 Nike WNBA Rebel Edition jerseys. They're out. Yes, we're a month and a half behind. But we haven't had a chance to talk about it yet. There's five of them, and four of them are black. Because Nike only knows how to do really one thing.
It's black and gray, which is a shade of black. So let's talk about them. The teams here, Minnesota, Washington, Dallas, Indiana, New York. Rebel Edition jerseys for the five of those. If you kind of remember them coming out a month ago and then don't remember what they look like, it's because not a lot of them are fantastic. But I don't want to give away my feelings about all five of them. Steve, start wherever you want. Okay, here's what I'm going to do. I am going to go...
In alphabetical order of the teams themselves, or at least the best that I can without screwing that up, because I have done that before. And I just want to hear right off the bat, if you can consider it, where you rank it amongst these five picks. So I'll give you a team, and you can either go right off the bat or take a bit to think about it and tell me. I'd probably put them fourth out of five, whatever you want to say. So I'm going to go alphabetical city. Let's start with the Dallas Wings. What do you think?
Fourth. Fourth. I have him third, but I get fourth too. You and I have talked, and Jason, for goodness sake, has talked very much about
What's been probably the main frustration with this one, but yeah, here's the thing. I'm a blazer fan. I love, I love an asymmetrical sashed uniform that continues onto the shorts. Okay. I'm a sucker for it. You're never going to meet someone more into that than me, but you got to do it right. Yeah. You gotta, you gotta line up those stripes Dallas.
They don't appear to line up heavily well. First of all, they messed up at not making it organic enough. They have one singular green line on top of four blue lines. And what that does is gives you a direct guide to know how to note how well these match up from the jerseys to the bottoms. And those don't seem to line up. But the worst offender here, especially when you look at their promo videos,
Is the shorts don't line up at all. The patterns are legitimately off from one seam to the other. It's, it's like shoddy fast fashion. Look, the lines actually don't set themselves up. Well, I showed that to my spouse who has actually worked in like retail clothing development. She knows how to, so she knows how to make clothes and she legitimately was frustrated. Like that's such an easy decision and you guys completely botched it.
Yeah, that was a dead frustration. That's the biggest gripe. And I feel like I've been griping a lot on this episode. There's so much about women's basketball that I'm excited about and that I love so much. I just, uniform stuff we get really picky about. I'm really tired of Nike putting place names across the chest of uniforms that don't use that place name.
So, for instance, Texas across the Dallas Wings uniform. It's the Dallas Wings. Doesn't make sense because it's not. At no point are the Dallas Wings ever the Texas Wings.
Texas is not in their branding. It's not part of their identity. Go Big D. Put a DFW on there. The ATL jerseys, we love those, do we not? Beautiful. The ATL jerseys are awesome. The stripes don't line up and that bothers me. You making that point reminds me, there need to be more just airport code teams.
Oh, agreed. Oh, LAX. Like a lot of them are simple. It's all like, it's just SLC, but a lot of them are like DFW would be solid on here. I didn't love the Texas from afar. The way that they've done the chest and the number fonting, they sort of want to give you like a chromish feel with the, with the top of the chest lettering being white, except it's actually not when you see it close up, it's just white.
If you're going to do it, go all the way and just give it the Chromie aesthetic, even though that's more of a Detroit thing than a Dallas thing. Again, sincerely, sincerely, I want to apologize for this. We read a five-star review at the beginning of the show. I sincerely apologize for sounding like a negative Nancy on today's episode. But...
DFW for Dallas-Fort Worth also could double in fan terms as the Dallas FN Wings. Everybody could just understand that that's what it means, even if it officially doesn't mean that. That's really, really good.
And that could absolutely be like a really fun thing, like the social media or, you know. Imagine like, you know, Riege Mbawale hitting a big shot or a game winner and screaming Dallas Effing Wings into the crowd. And that's like a moment. That's like the Rip City moment. Because if that was the case and I was a Wings fan, I would 100% get a DFW jersey. Like, yeah, that's for a little while, Lillard's thing was Rip City on the ass.
Yeah. And, and I think he even put it like one, like one colorway of one of his shoes had it written on there. And I was like, yeah, that's, that's pretty cool. Like, I don't, I don't know what it means. I just love it.
yeah, having, having a mantra, like I still don't 100% know what Duval means, but I know it means a lot to some fans. I know people get excited about it. Yeah. I know people are into it, but like, um, no, no, I totally feel that way. I think the Dallas one is kind of tapping at best. I hope the next time they have to do a go around to this, they just over go do away with this template as a whole and try something different. Um,
You can tell that they're leaning pretty heavily into like we are blue with the green touch. And that's actually kind of cool and unique. I actually think they could have had more fun with this. We're going to go ahead and move on really quick. Up the alphabetical ladder. Indiana Fever. This is an interesting one because for as much as you want to judge the uniform itself, it's also heavily comparing it to its previous one, which could feel unfair, but you can't not do it. Of the five new Rebel uniforms,
To me, this is number two, not because I'm blown away by it, but because it doesn't really do anything wrong. That's my total review of it, other than having Salesforce as a sponsor. Screw Salesforce. That's more of a Steve and I joke than anything. Yeah, but really. But yeah, I like the little, the text, the pinstripe text, I think is cool. Everything else is very simple, straightforward. I like it.
Yeah, they did like the there's like the coded wording on the pinstriping, which is kind of cool. It's it's it's a red that pops. So having a full red uniform and they have as a general uniform set, one of the more underrated uniforms.
You know, their blue uniforms are clean. I think their blues with the golden red accents are really nice. And I think, again, we were just talking about the DFW thing could kind of like take on a life of its own with Dallas. I really like using the basketball chose me thing as kind of a nod to catchings. I think as much as you can, you should nod to catchings as an organization.
without employing her in your runoff. And that's sort of what this uniform feels like, like an homage for, which I totally get in that sense. But, you know, it's a red that pops really well. It's a decent look. It's simple. It makes some sense. For goodness sake, you had one of the coolest, trendiest uniforms a minute ago. I would have made it a point to hold on to that Stranger Things jersey until the last season of Stranger Things actually ended. Yeah.
I think in the next year it's going to be on the air. Like you still have a chance to capitalize off of that jersey and they should have held on to it for as long as they could. Like that to me was like so – like honestly, I think about it like I wish more teams found a way to – it would be like the Liberty doing a succession jersey right now, you know, or I don't know.
I was about to try to make a Ted Lasso comparison to really just go buy the AFC Richmond jersey. But, like, yeah, no, like, I wish they would have just held on to that because I think they had some more mileage in it. And it was a great jersey, and it was an iconic look. But this one doesn't, like, hurt much. So they're two exactly for me of, like, they're just not bad enough for it to make some sense. But, yeah.
It is a decent look. If you're a fan of the fever and you want to cop this, I would get, I understand. It's good. It's recognizable in that sense. Let's head up the ladder. This one confuses me. The Minnesota Lynx. Yeah, it's very energy drink, is it not?
With kind of the combining the light green and the dark green. I don't think it's bad. The problem is when you see jerseys like this, you immediately go to lesser league. You go to what looks like a G League uniform. It looks like Canadian football. It looks like the off-brand rather than the on-brand.
And it's a small, it already has a small conference upset Jersey. Yeah. Yeah. So it doesn't, it's not that it looks bad. I think it actually looks cool. And if I was a links fan, I would consider getting one. I think it's more just a problem of like your, your branding is really solidly the dark blue. And I, I think maybe they're trying to tie in some of the timber wolves using the line, the electric line green, but it ends up just giving me a very like strike can vibe and it,
It's not bad. They did this one. Yeah. Again, it's decent. Well, no, it's not because it's fourth out of five for me. Sorry. I don't think it's decent. I actually do not like this one. I don't know why I said decent. Maybe I'm just trying to. I'll say this. Pick a green. Pick a damn green. I hear you. But it would be really boring if it was all forest green.
Yeah, but if you keep the neon on dark blue, it's fine. Yeah. Pick a green. Or make one of those greens the mainstay of the colorway and do like a lime green setup if you want to or something like that. The forest green makes no sense. I would say kill it, but that's just me. The lining of it is weird. It just makes it look cluttered. And I would say this...
I guess I want to say I'd say it to every team, but really I'm saying it to like 20 people in the graphic design department at Nike. The stacked lettering has never worked. I'm going to put the name of the city in small letters on top of the team name in big letters. Motif has never worked. Not on a jersey. Yeah. But it has not worked once. If you want to put it on a patch that goes on a hat or on a polo, I think that's fine.
Fine. The chest mark does not work. It just flat out – you are – it's too confusing. It doesn't make a lot of heavy sense. And they're in another situation where you could have a Twin Cities jersey. You could have an MSP jersey. That would be kind of cool, which I think –
The Timberwolves had done previously. The Timberwolves probably stole the best possible pop culture motif in Minnesota because they've already done the Prince homage and it was gorgeous. It was awesome. But like, there's a lot going on. Freaking...
Above anything else, have a juicy Lucy jersey. I don't know. Do something. I think it's because this doesn't feel much like an homage to anything. And if you're going to do this Rebel look, I like when you can tell that it has a purpose. And I don't see the purpose in it. Right. And they all do. Every time they roll one of these out, Nike has a whole 300-page marketing thing about what it represents. So I know it represents something. Yeah.
I don't want to disrespect whatever that is, but it is not immediately evident by looking at the uniform. The drive and resolve of Minnesotans everywhere and the rush of the upper Northwest, the willingness to go on. You know what it is, Logan? It's a look to the future.
And with a nod to the past, the nod to the past, I will come through this computer screen and hit you in the face. If I have not included that line. Okay. We're going to move on up. We're going to talk about probably the one that I have the most feelings about. I don't know about you. The New York Liberty rebel. This is a step down.
of step downs, the equality, original quality Jersey with that sea foam green was a beautiful Jersey. So much so that they're selling it in other markets, Dick's sporting goods. Um, the biggest problem with this Jersey is,
is the article I'm looking at right now that's ranking all of them. It's a USA Today article that has pictures of all of them and the tweets and everything. At the top of that article, their hero image is the original Equality jersey, which is gorgeous. It's perfect. It's so good. And so you compare it to that and you're like, oh, why did they do that? Their dark jersey has a tiny bit of subtle gradiency
on the shoulders, pretty much along the shoulder straps and the upper chest. It doesn't interfere a ton with the look. So it makes it so that jersey looks all right. Even though it's not necessary, it looks all right. Their white jersey is the best home white of all WNBA teams. If they sold the home whites, it's instant on getting a Stewie home white. Yeah. It's the best home white of all teams. I think they do a great job with that one. This one is them...
wanting to be risky and it just, it doesn't work. And it's like, this is one of those that a lot of people probably thought, look, let's wait till we see it on the court or wait till we see it on a player. I've seen promo images of players now wearing these and it still doesn't work. I don't care that the gradient continues onto the shorts and that it frays off at like one end of the shorts, you know, the bottom and the top and whatever. It still doesn't work.
Now, do I like the NYL insignia that kind of goes with it? That's all right. It's decent. And let's be honest. Let's get this out of the way because Liberty fans are going to come into the comments and tear us apart. The Flame logo is one of the best logos in sports.
Phenomenal. The surf green flame logo. Phenomenal. Ever since they redid it and took the orange out and they redid it into like the current. I want an ice cream cone shaped like that. Like it's, it's, it's fantastic. So they've done a very good thing as far as that's considered. So I like the entire setup there.
I just think you are messing with a color. Like it does. This was not necessary. If you're going to another rebel, just go completely different direction. Here's the problem for me is the particle effect is the first thing I ever learned in Photoshop because it was the easiest thing to do if you didn't know Photoshop. And so like, to me, the Jersey comes off as like a very low effort. Like we, we have a black uniform. We have a surf green uniform. It's beautiful. Um,
Let's combine the two. And the particle effect is just the easiest thing to do. So that's what they did. I, they probably, they put more thought into it than that, but that's what it looks like. It's just frustrating. You it's busy. You can barely read the chess mark. Like it doesn't pop at all. I'm just not into this look. It really was frustrating for me. So yeah, it's, it's, it's tough, but like they have a handful of stuff that seems to, to land for them.
It's just like we talked about the stacked and white. They have kind of a flame motif on the shorts. That's okay. If I'm standing in the team shop and I'm looking at the surf greens, white ones, black ones, these, I'm not even looking at these. I'm trying to decide which of the other three to buy because they're all great. And these, I'm like, oh, yeah, they have those. This was such a step down.
Now we're going to get to one that I have a big question with. Let's talk about the Mystics. This is one of, is it really good because it's a fairly clean design? Or is it fantastic because it's a fantastic design? Or does it feel fantastic because it's a really good design compared to some other mid-Rebel jersey slash Mystics?
the mystics other jerseys also are okay at best like i don't know how to how to mark why i feel the way i do about this but i will say in promo images of mystics players this looks like seeing natasha cloud where this jersey looks hard as f like it's they looks really really solid uh it's a great homage to nanny helen burroughs like it's
The chest mark is great. It's the right amount of shiny gold without being just like outright gaudy gold. Obviously, weaving the words throughout the lines in the uniform is really, really nice. I think the font that they chose for the numbers, we've talked about number fonts a lot, like more than two guys ever should. Most of the time, you don't want to mess with it. You just go with what's simple. This one works. These
These numbers break every rule I ever have when it comes to number fun. It looks wonderful. This is strong enough that I think, I think it warrants considering like actually rebranding to this. I think they've needed a new logo for a long time and the blue and red color scheme is just,
very medium. I have medium opinions about it. I don't have strong opinions against it. And I don't even mean across the league. I'm tired of Washington teams doing it. Right. And I was going to bring this up earlier when we were talking about Minnesota. Washington, D.C. as a city, I think has the worst collection of sports uniforms you could find in a city. There are contenders. I think Phoenix is up there. I think the Vikings keep Minnesota from being up there, but Minnesota's not far off.
DC does not have a consistent theme throughout all its sports teams. It's tepid as hell. And I'm saying that in the Mystics case, that's a good thing. That means you can just lean into whatever you want to do that works. You don't have to hold yourselves to, like, we have to stay blue and red. You don't have to do that. None of the other teams do that. The commanders are not even close to being in that realm.
I don't know what the Wizards are doing these days. I don't even know what the Wizards are doing. I think the Nats are very... They're like the Mystics. They're very just kind of like medium. It's fine. It's not offensive. You can do what you want, Mystics. And to be honest, I think the Mystics are one of the teams that I'm most intrigued by coming into this season. Which means if we get healthy Deladon wearing these jerseys a bunch, being surprisingly good as a team, it's going to make me love them even more. Yeah. Like I'm just going to naturally be like, oh, I like those. Yeah.
I did have one detail. I think Jason called this out. The heart is actually – that's a big homage to Helen Burroughs. It's actually meant to resemble the heart pendant as if you're wearing a necklace. That's why it's placed where it is, which I think is a really cool and a really sweet detail. It's just off-centered from the eye enough that it looks like it should be a dot of an eye but isn't.
And because of that, I almost wish they decided to go with looser kerning of letters so it happened to be above the eye. Maybe that would be a little too on the nose. I almost feel like they did it on purpose because being off-center makes – like I think it's too cutesy if it's the dot on the eye. If it is centering over it. Yeah, you're probably right. Maybe I'm just intrigued. My one big take on this –
I know it doesn't look identical to this other jersey. It does sort of feel like a remixed version of the Aces Rebel in a way. A little bit. It has a lot of the same notes, even though a lot of details are different. They feel like different pages of the same book, if that makes sense. They kind of have a similar nuance to them, which isn't – I'm not knocking that by any means.
Sometimes good designs should steal from other good designs. Aren't just good. I think that's fine. Yeah. It's got a little bit of new Orleans saints in it, but that doesn't bother me.
I think it's fine. It's got even like the Atlanta Hawks city feel to it a little, like it's got some stuff, but it's a clean one. It, I think it's one that like mystics fans are probably excited to have something cool that they can cop, which I totally get. Like I would, I would be into that too. So I like the mystics look a lot. It's, you know, it was a big upgrade. It really makes me intrigued by what we're going to see from other teams in the league over the next couple of years, because I,
We nearly went 12 for 12 when these were all released a couple seasons ago, as far as how this is all kicking off. And it's now showing that capitalizing on that is going to be a bit of a parody and that's totally fine. But yeah,
We'll just see how it goes. Cause I, you know, it's fun. What's fun about this conversations is I don't think having a negative take on uniforms has anything to do with the team and has everything to do with. No, I hope, I hope people know that I'm, I'm like my, my opinions on the weird, like the sash on the wings uniform, the ends of the hip and then continues on the shorts from the belt buckle. That has nothing to do with the fact that I think Dallas is going to win six games this year.
That's a completely different discussion. There is an annoying designer in Eugene, Oregon at Nike who got his degree at Carnegie Mellon who puts ciao at the end of his emails.
who I, who just lazied this one out. And that's who I want to have words with. It's that guy who's making twice my income and, and putting this type of product out. That's why this is frustrating. It's no indictment on anyone else.
We have to end there. We have to end there. We've gone over time talking jerseys. Thank you so much for joining us all. I am broken. I'm not going to be able to get much further into these episodes.
Again, we will have award predictions and a full season preview of the main storylines you need to know and love and pay attention to coming up in the next week for you. We'll get everybody together and make sure that we have a day where we can get as much of this as possible on that episode. But thank you for joining us for this one. Kind of a state of the WNBA for you as well as a complete just middle finger to fans of five different teams across the league who now hate us.
Hopefully we will give you reasons to stick around and like us more later on. We do. We love all of those teams. I have an Indiana Fever hat three feet away from you right now, and I'm really hoping those are good visitors.
So stick with us. Same. Stick with us. I'm sorry. I know we have a lot of Minnesota fans in particular that interact with our show on Twitter. I don't remember what their take on the Rebel Crews were. I'm just hoping because they hated them. Because otherwise, I don't want to be mad at them. Anyway, I've been delaying this for too long. Thank you so much for joining us today. I am Logan Jones. And I'm Steve Schwartzman. And we got you.
Thank you.