2. Empathy, Adaptability, and Design (feat. Sarah Gibbons, Chief Designer at NN/g)
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Welcome to the Nielsen Norman Group UX podcast. I'm your host, Therese Fessenden. On this monthly show, you'll hear interviews with UX thought leaders about fundamental UX topics, pressing industry questions, and discussions about how great UX can truly transform the world.

Last month on our first episode, I spoke with one of NNG's co-founders, Dr. Jacob Nielsen, about UX, usability, vocabulary sprawl, and the future. Our guest today is NNG's chief designer, Sarah Gibbons. Sarah is a close colleague of mine who has published research on design thinking, service design, and mapping frameworks, all of which have become the authority for working designers across industries.

And she advises and teaches industry leaders from all around the world on how to apply her methodologies to business needs. In this episode, we talk about how essential empathy is in our work, what design means to us, and the critical skills you need to be a design thinker and a service designer. This episode has a lot of thought-provoking topics. So with that, it's my pleasure to welcome Sarah Gibbons.

Welcome, Sarah. Thank you for joining me on the show today. I'm super stoked to interview you because personally, I love talking to you both as a coworker and as a friend, and I think our audience is going to learn a lot from you. So on that note, how are you doing? I realize that's kind of a loaded question these days, but how are you? Well, first off, I'm so excited that we now have a podcast. So that's exciting. I think...

and so many of us at NNG find so much value in talking and having conversations with each other and readers and other researchers and practitioners that I think it's really exciting while this may not be two ways in the sense of including audience members and readers, it's really exciting to be able to at least involve them and kind of let them

I listen in on the conversations that we have so often, usually at conferences. So I miss the travel aspect of life, but it's good. I think it's such an interesting time for everyone. I was talking to a friend the other day and I think empathy is such a hot topic word right now. Yes. The empathy I'm having the hardest time applying right now is empathy for myself, where I'm

I you know want to complete more and do more and achieve more and be more productive and be perfect at all these things and I think it's really interesting I kind of am nostalgic for the early days of quarantine where we all were okay with bunkering like kind of like hunkering down and

I being cozy and not overachieving at everything. And I kind of miss those days where we had a lot more self grace. So no, but I'm good. How are you, Therese? I'm, I think you pretty much nailed it when you said nostalgic for the early days of quarantine. Because yeah, like back, I say back then as if it was like years ago, but it was like months ago. It was it was a lot.

it's easier to kind of rationalize the amount of work I was doing, being like, this is great. We can make things really awesome if we just put in all this work right now. And I think we did an awesome job, at least if I do say so myself, you know, the work that we put into making everything virtual. But I remember there was like, I think it was the podcast you recommended me, the Brene Brown podcast, where she was talking about how it's not

sustainable to keep working at that pace. And I think you're absolutely right. Like having that empathy for yourself is,

When you are really tired or also having the empathy for yourself that, you know, yeah, maybe you don't do as much work as you used to do. But being able to like give yourself that grace in order to continue being productive. And I'm very much an all or nothing type of worker. So it's been a bit challenging. But at the same time, I've learned a lot, I think, from a lot of my coworkers and getting to know how people

Using that same principle that we apply for our users, applying it to ourselves, understanding that there's greater things happening other than just what we're immediately doing for work. There's entire lives being lived outside of that. Yeah, it's so contextual. And there's actually a word that I think of often, and it's called sonder.

And it's the concept that anyone you pass on the street or even in the digital world has a life as complex as your own. And I think that that's really interesting to just think about, you know, anyone that you come in contact with at work or in person, you know, they have and carry with them all the same or different worries and thoughts and questions and,

If anything, I've actually found that comforting because I think all of us are asking ourselves a lot of questions during this crazy time in the world. And it's nice to know that whatever emotion you're feeling, you're not alone. While it may be different, there's someone else feeling the same thing. So yeah, I'm happy to be here though. And you know, life goes on. So I'm still kind of chugging away at my day-to-day stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. And I want to kind of pick your brain on that day-to-day stuff for both the benefit of our users and also because I get to see snippets, you know, we get to work together on things like our design thinking class, we get to work together on service blueprinting. But I guess I would love to know more, like what is it like the day-to-day life of a chief designer? You know, Therese, it's funny. I've been doing user interviews

for the past few weeks. So I'm developing a new course on roadmapping, which is really an interesting concept because a lot of people think of roadmaps as an artifact. But what I'm really learning is that there's roadmapping as a verb. So the idea of strategizing and creating a plan and vision for your product. And then the roadmap being the noun that captures that verb. So it's been really interesting learning

But whenever I introduce myself and I'm interviewing a lot of industry practitioners right now,

And I always ask them, you know, have you heard of NNG? And the answer is usually, oh, of course. And I talk a little bit about my day to day. And the huge shock for everyone is just how small NNG is. I think everyone thinks that, you know, behind our website, we have, you know, teams and teams of people and like over 100 people and a marketing team and, you

you know, teams that do all of our research and then teams that write articles. And I always joke, and it's like a one woman show here because my day to day involves about at least five to 10 different tasks and responsibilities, which is something I love about the job. And I feel extremely thankful that I get to still do some visual design and do research and then do the analysis and then do the public speaking and

In a lot of ways, I think it keeps me on my toes and keeps me practicing and fulfilled in my areas of interest. But it's pretty interesting because I feel like no one really knows or realizes just how small. So

I would say in terms of every day, I am creating from scratch best practices and frameworks for teams to roadmap. So that's really exciting. And that is exactly a research plan. So from planning, recruiting, conducting the research all the way through

creating and designing that framework and then delivering that framework to practitioners, whether it be through our conferences or clients, articles, et cetera. I also, my fun pet project recently has been our energy Instagram.

Yes, yes. And for our listeners, I just, I have to stress how excited I am. Because for the longest time, I was like, this, this is a perfect medium for us to express so many of our very visual concepts. And I think this Instagram is, it's awesome. If you haven't looked at it, please check it out.

I'm not ashamed to plug it. It is at NNGUX. And I think it's just a fun way to be a part of our audience's everyday lives. And I think we take for granted, at least I still take for granted, just how much content we have published over the past 20 years. It is remarkable. Like it is absolutely crazy and mind boggling every single time I go back and look at an article that Jacob or someone else wrote.

back in the 90s and it still is applicable today. And I was thinking, and I don't know who our audience will be that's listening to this, but UX is such an interesting field because it's just so diverse. And so my thinking with this Instagram is that there's a lot of people in different contexts and different industries and different countries, especially,

that are practicing and wanting to get into UX and why not meet them on a platform that they are already using with a little bit of UX knowledge every day. So that's kind of my latest. So to summarize, I guess my every day is a mix of my expertise. So design, system thinking, interacting and collaborating with others and so forth.

Nice. Yes, that is a very nice, concise way, but you're definitely a jack of all trades or Jackie of all trades doing everything.

And of course, design being all at the heart of it. I guess I, you know, I want to know a little bit more about you. Is design something that you've always wanted to do? Like if you were to ask Sarah Gibbons, like what she wanted to be when she grew up, was it, you know, young Sarah Gibbons, has she always wanted to do some type of design? Oh my gosh. Yes. I think from age two or three, I was creating.

I was building forts. I was playing with Legos or K'nex. I was always in this like building mindset. And they weren't just buildings. They were like thoughtful buildings. And I think that's a really interesting piece of it that I don't really ever think I had a choice. I was, I think if you ask my parents,

I went through this newspaper contest phase of my life where I would apply and compete in these different design competitions. And not just limited to children. I would literally go and compete. And so while my specific design interests, I think, kind of ebbed and flowed with what I was interested in in the moment, from industrial design to architecture to maybe interior fashion,

It makes sense that I landed where I did. I love to solve complex problems ecosystem-wide and design things that are received and bring joy and happiness and make people's lives better. So is design something I've always wanted to do or did I fall into it by accident? I definitely was born a designer. That sounds so cliche, but it's true. Yeah.

Which I think is also kind of awesome. And I'm always kind of jealous of the people who are like naturally born designers. Although now I wonder, because you were talking about how you like to build things. And that's something I loved doing too as a kid. I just, I loved Legos. And there was even like a brief, I forget, it was like a limited edition version of Legos that had robotics like embedded into it. And I would love just like,

programming, these little, like, basically would make a little car, like a little rover, and it would, you know, drive around. I think that that is design. And I am such a big and big believer and firm in my idea that everyone is a designer in life. And they all just have different mediums. So I think if you look at the top people in any field,

That could be business, that could be marketing, that could be a trade business, that could be a specific skill set. And you look at the top 10%, my guess is they are designers and they picked the medium of that industry. And if you are thinking intentionally about how you're deciding to solve a problem, then that is design. And I think that we oftentimes limit

our understanding of design and thus limit our perceived impact of design. But I think that, you know, I get asked all the time, how did you transition from graphic design to UX? So for all of our listeners who did a traditional graphic design curriculum or went to university or took some classes for graphic design,

A lot of people like to frame it, well, how are you going to make the transition? And my answer to them is always, what transition? I've always been doing this. I've always been, you know, in graphic design, your goal is to take a message and communicate it in an impactful way. It's to better understand an ecosystem and create an artifact that can communicate that more simply. And so that's exactly what we do in UX, right? And the medium may be more interface-based or...

customer support based or service based, but it's still design. And I think that by a lot of people calling themselves only designers and not thinking about the impact that they could bring to strategy or communications or marketing, you limit the impact that you're able to bring. So, yeah.

I think everyone's a designer. We all just have slightly different mediums. I really like that philosophy too. And folks in our industry will often associate design with being something inherently visual, but I really like the concept, not just like, but see the value of the concept of

of design being something that can be applied in many contexts. So I guess I want to pick your brain a bit about service design. So how did you sort of translate the idea of like design is something everyone can do into something like service design? I know that you're not the creator of service design, but that you took a lot of inspiration from some thought leaders and put this basically into the courses that we have now. So how did you learn about this? How did you get inspired to do this?

So it's really interesting. I think service design is such, it is definitely like where a lot of my interests lie these days, especially as you see most companies and really interesting companies bring their models into kind of what we would classically call a service industry. But service design as a formal practice is actually very,

young, but in the methodology and ideals, it's been around the civilizations, right? That if you think back, every single person in ancient communities had a role to play.

And they had processes for gathering food and they had processes for rituals and they had processes when new community members and traditions when new community members were born. And I think what's so fascinating about that is like that is at its core service design. It's the idea that, you know, the behaviors and practices that individuals take together and as they're related to each other, create an output.

And that is incredible. So if you take that baseline and you say, all right, how has that evolved over the years? Well, if you look at any company, you have people who are creating that product that is sold. That could be an actual good or it could be a service. So an instantaneous exchange. And wow, that's so fascinating that if we can help those people do that better, then the output will be stronger.

And for a lot of people, this is mind boggling, right? But it's so fascinating. I think, you know, where we are today, competitive advantage, there are a lot of really great products and people and replicable products and services out there. So what is going to distinguish between them? And that is how they're created. Personally, though, I,

I have always been a systems thinker. I always like the harder problems. If something has an easy answer, I tend to lose interest. All the way back to when I was at university, I redesigned, which is extremely applicable if you're in the United States heading up to November and our election.

I redesigning small community and minority community voting systems. And this was in person. So of course, with COVID, this is not as practical, but this was essentially a kit of parts that a community that has very little funding,

for poll centers can actually create an incredible voting and poll volunteer experience. So all the way down to the ballots and then upward to how any person of the community could design a polling center to be efficient.

and comfortable, all the way up to signage and how you would train volunteers. And that's when I really kind of plugged into this idea of like, wow, like the world of opportunity is so big once you expand it to this concept of service design. Mm hmm.

So wait, this project that you did with the elections and designing essentially that polling center experience, when did you do that? I'm curious. I was like, I don't remember hearing this before. I did this back in 2011. Okay. Which is incredible. And it's actually what I would say got me my job at IBM, actually. And-

To be honest, if I do say so myself, and I guess relatively egotistically, you could still use it today. Because good systems aren't about how they look. They're about how they work. And human behavior doesn't change that fast.

So a lot of what the research I had done that kind of created the outputs was how people move through spaces with goals, how to quickly train. And part of that was giving each person a very specific role rather than making each volunteer know everything. And a lot of those principles are still applicable. Yeah. Yeah.

I'll have to think that up potentially and maybe put it on LinkedIn. Yes, please. I think it would laugh for everyone.

I think it's very timely to put that out now. This is so fascinating. And thank you for sharing all that you have so far. I know that there are probably some other folks listening that might be interested in design thinking and service design. What would you say the most important skill or focus area, what would you say is the most important thing that people should have when they're trying to do design thinking or service design?

Great question. It's kind of hard to narrow down just one. I would have to say, and I say this often, so if you've taken a class with me or read an article, there's a high probability that I've mentioned this, but I would have to say adaptability. And the reason being is we are called practitioners of

For a reason. It is a practice. So just like the practice of yoga, you will never quite perfect it because the more you learn, the more you realize there is to learn. And I think a lot of people think about design thinking and service design as answers instead of methods towards answers. And if you think about it like that,

As not an end state, but more as a way to get towards an end state. Then that, that path, that highway, whatever that road is should only be used if it's going to lead you to your end state. And that's,

So when people apply, and I'm in the midst of publishing all of this design thinking research, but when people are applying, especially in the early stage of kind of learning this practice of design thinking and they're applying it, they think so rigidly that they're limiting themselves and they're somewhat kind of undercutting the whole reason of using the approach. And I think it's due to this fear or wanting to do it right and wanting

Of course, I also blame a lot of the prescribed methods and bad marketing out there. But they kind of forget that they have to trust their intuition and adapt the process. Because every context is different. Goals are different. Experience is different. And

That goes for service design too. And as with any practice, I think that you always have to take this relearning approach that you may have done this before and you may have practiced it before, but if the context changes, then your behaviors and practices will have to change.

And so not being scared to kind of abandon or trust your gut and try something different. I always have this metaphor. I don't know, Therese, you probably heard me say it. You have to think about mastering design thinking and or service design, kind of like learning the kitchen. So when at least when I first learned to cook,

I started really kind of like with the basics. Okay, I have these basic ingredients and I'm going to follow the recipe perfectly. So, and then maybe I'm going to have the same ingredients in a recipe, but now I'm going to include some kind of crazy stuff, like some peppers or some extra cheese on top. Who cares? Right? Right.

And that's kind of like that intermediate level where you're still relying on the recipe, aka the process, but you're adding some flair to it.

And where we're really all trying to get is to this like mastery level where you, you're not even using a recipe. You have a loose recipe in mind and you have the confidence to kind of trust your instincts and start to flex it based on your ingredients, based on who's going to be consuming that meal. Right. And that's kind of that level that we all should be working towards, but that level's hard because it's uncomfortable and it takes time. But yeah,

We're aiming to be the Michelin star chef of design thinking. Right. Totally agree. And I love that metaphor. Even though if I were to talk about actual cooking skills, I'm definitely more of that like,

intermediate level of actual cooking. So I'm always, I'm always thinking like, yes, I do. I do want to be that Michelin chef. And I can attest to that same feeling. I mean, if I were to reflect on it from like the cooking side of things, like it is uncomfortable to be willing to throw away the cookbook and like rely on the skills that you've learned and then rely on them as taking you through to what you ultimately want to achieve. And, and,

I think like being okay with a bad dish, like it won't always be perfect, but like it's one bad dish and tomorrow you also have three more meals to try again. Yeah.

Right. I love that. Yeah. That's, that's, I need you to be my motivational like coach when I'm actually cooking. I don't know how, I don't know how the metaphor works out. I was thinking recently, because for those listening, I've gotten really into gardening. As Teresa knows, I've shown pictures. Yes. And so now I'm kind of like, well, what does it mean to grow your own ingredients? Does that like put me in this like, ultimate, ultimate

mastery level? I don't know. I think so. I think that's what sets apart the Michelin chefs. I know we're like really stretching this metaphor, but really. I hope everyone's here for it. Yeah. Like those chefs cook with the seasons. Like they cook in season. They, they,

They will only use minimal ingredients of what's not in season. And like, because of that, because they're leveraging what is strong in that moment, that's what really takes their dishes to the next level. So I think the metaphor still stands, Sarah. Yes, that's perfect. I love it.

Well, this has been awesome, Sarah. I guess the last thing I want to ask you before we go today is what's next? What lies ahead for you? Are there anything, any cool projects you're working on that or that you're soon going to be working on? Good, great questions. Almost too much. No, I have two very exciting things that are lying ahead. The first being that I am quite finally,

coming up on publishing about three years worth of design thinking research. So that is really exciting. That will manifest through multiple articles that will be coming up around

The journey of learning design thinking, its values and benefits, everything down to best practices. So that's really exciting. And then, as I mentioned earlier, really learning about how teams roadmap and strategize and create their future problems to solve and how they're communicating that to others.

So I'm really excited to kind of dive deeper and we'll also be publishing articles and creating a new course on everything roadmapping and roadmaps. Awesome. That is so cool. And if others want to follow you on, I guess we already know where to follow you on Instagram, but for NNGUX. Yeah. So say that again. So that's at NNGUX and you can find me on LinkedIn, Sarah Gibbons.

And Twitter at SE Gibb, where I post all things qualitative frameworks, design thinking, service design, etc. Well, I will certainly be excited to see what happens next on all of those channels. Thank you, Sarah, for your time. And I hope you have a wonderful rest of your week. Thank you, Therese. Miss you. Miss you too. See you soon.

Thanks for listening to episode two of the NNG UX podcast. If you like this show and want to support the work that we do, please hit subscribe on the podcast platform of your choice. You can also subscribe to our weekly email newsletter, The Alert Box, where we share the latest research we're working on, upcoming events, and upcoming chances to get UX certified at one of our UX conferences.

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