#119 Emerging and future design roles
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I don't think we're gonna need as much granularity in our roles as we used to, right? So even with these kind of intersective roles like design engineer, the fluid designer, the conversational designer, the model designer, which is something very particular to the AI space, even with all these intersections and mix and match and kind of new roles emerging, I think that we will actually see few

roles and they will eventually all lead up or converge towards the single role which is the product maker that also entails designing it and thinking about it and understanding it that's strategizing but it's gonna be probably just one kind of role that kind of entails all these disciplines and knows how to bring them together part human part technology

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the next Honest UX Talks. My name is Anfisa, and I'm joined today by my lovely co-host, Ioana. And today we're going to talk about an exciting, speculative topic called

emerging and future design roles. Some trends that we can pick up today, some of our predictions. We did already the predictions about the future of design as an industry in September, but today we actually want to talk about the fragmentation of roles. Will there be fragmentations or will it be one general role? Or what if we go even farther and discuss if there will be design at all as a discipline? So we'll dive into that topic and see if there are potential future roles that we can explore or

and start kind of building our portfolio towards. And before diving into the topic, I also want to ask, how have you been, Ioana? Hi, everyone.

pretty well. As some of our regular listeners might know, I'm contemplating maybe not a career switch, but like complementing my career with some other kind of creative efforts. And I'm looking at art. So I have been very artistic for the past couple of weeks. I've started working on my first art installations. And I'm in this very poetic and creative, also working on a book that sits at the intersection of design and art. And

yeah, I don't know, I'm very excited about this layer that I've been wanting to explore for a very long time, but like, you never have the time for it, it's never the right moment, you know,

You don't know enough about art to start doing art. And so right now I just managed to navigate all those kind of preconceptions and fixed ideas, the rigid things that kept me still. And now I'm just fluid, which is a word that I think will come up more in this conversation. I'm just doing a lot of creative work. I've been experimenting with even launching. I'm hoping of bringing some of them forward into the light and

And I'm working on a website as well that has this kind of the artistic purpose to it. I'm very excited to see that I'm using Wix Studio and I've discovered that they have this Figma plugin by which we can directly export the Figma designs to a website with just a click. So this is really making my life easier because now I get to focus on what sits in the website about art and not so much about how do I bring it to life. It's much quicker, right?

I never was a professional website builder, but I was always an advanced or senior designer. So now this is kind of bridging my abilities. The Figma two week studio plugin. So that was also a nice product experience I've had recently. Yeah, I think that's what I'm doing in a nutshell, creating and experimenting and exploring.

And how about you? What have you been up to? Well, I've been good as well. The last weeks, we were just business as usual, getting into the end of the year sort of mood, starting to reflect more. I think this is something that you did last week as well. So I'm kind of reflecting a little bit on the journey I've been on.

so far with the community. I wrote a little post around how it's been for me, the lessons learned, the just journey of navigating through the new, I guess, side project that you have and how it's going, how sometimes it's demotivating, you want to drop it, but sometimes you get this little something nice happens and it gets you back on track with the motivation. So yeah, I've been a little bit reflecting on my journey with the community and also thinking about the future of it. Where do I want to take it? What are the next

challenges, how I'm going to solve this, how I'm going to make people more happy in the community so they get to learn more and more things. Even yesterday, I did like a personal case study presentation, which was the project that is sort of not public. So it had to be sort of not recorded. Only for people who joined the session, I would do this presentation to show them an example of how I personally do this. It was really interesting because I finally got the feedback on how my personal presentation

could be going right and it was really fantastic because people gave me very constructive really useful feedback and I love those sessions and the power of community because even you as the mentor you could learn from people if you have a lot of people joining the session you could learn a lot and literally after the session I wrote myself a bunch of comments on what to improve how to improve the storytelling how to navigate this journey to be more even engaging as a

presentation. So it's fantastic. I'm enjoying the whole community spirit of it. Oh, and the last thing I wanted to mention, because I think I will forget, and I always forget about this, but I finally published the design of the website I've been doing for my old online courses. So if you have been listening to this podcast for a while, you know that a few years ago, 2020-21, I've launched the UX process courses, which was all about the strategy, research, design validation, etc. And I had the website there a

built literally for like I don't know five years and it was honestly I don't know I hated it so much and three times I tried to relaunch it I just never had the time finally in one weekend I was the community member built the whole like design from scratch and we're so happy because we finally put it live and

I'm so happy to see the new website that just represents my branding much better. It also aligns with the community. So it feels the same. It has all the sort of features we are offering there and the story that we are trying to sort of how do we help community there. So yeah, I'm very happy about this. This launch, it was exciting. We literally pushed the button, go live during the weekend. And yeah, I'm going to start talking about it, I guess, in the next week or two so that everybody can check it out as well. And you can also check it out in the show notes if you want to.

All right, now, with that being said, let's actually talk about the topic of today's episode, which is, again, emerging and future design roles. So the first question I wanted to ask you, Ioana, which signs do you currently see on the market? And also, maybe if there are any signals from the past, if we reflect back on the journey in the last 10 years, for example, do you see any emerging signals that we can take into account when it comes to thinking about the future roles of the design?

It's a complex question. I think I can go as far as to think about the industrial revolution, where we could see in a way it was the same concept or the abstract was very similar. Something was progressing very quickly from a technological standpoint and

that made the world of working change. And it was scary and it's very similar to what's going on today. I think we're in a similar, I can really easily draw some parallels to the industrial revolution where today we're also going to be seeing fundamental changes in our roles, right? It's not going to be overnight, but it's probably going to get there. And from a design standpoint, we've seen some shifts in the market already, like in present time,

We have a lot of tools that are already automating design. We can create design and just visualize our thinking with the help of AI already today. The technology is not perfect yet, but it's going to get there. We're also seeing a lot of refocusing on valuing, say, not craft technology,

Because craft can mean a lot of things, but like visual craft. So the market is now hiring people who can also support the visual work, not just the thinking strategy, what we used to call pure UX designer. We don't see a pure UX designer at this point so much being hired in the market. It's the product designer of 2024 and 2025 is also an excellent visualizer of that. But on

The other hand, that's also going to be supported by AI. So what does that all mean from my perspective is that we do need to redefine or revisit what our roles are and the value we provide. And I think that we're going to see that we need to go wider in the kind of things that we can employ and bring to the table, the skills that we have. So I think that for once, being a generalist,

is something that we will see more and more the industry starting to value, like being able to understand how to research something and what needs to be researched and how to identify the right research questions, but also kind of be able to draft the optimale

information architecture and then how do we surface that in UI. Also kind of complement your thinking with a basic understanding of business goals and also some engineering knowledge. And so I think that what we will need to do is become more rounded as designers and

And we will also be seeing, I would say, not hybrid, but kind of these morphed, very intersectional new roles, like things such as the design engineer who can also implement the design, right? And to be a design engineer, you don't have to know as much code as you needed in the past because the tools are getting there, right? So you can generate UI, you can generate websites now, right?

with generative AI, right? So that's also happening. But can you sustain that process end to end using these technologies doesn't have to be by retraining yourself as a front end engineer, you don't have to do that. But can you call yourself a design engineer? Can you ensure that your vision is being also brought to life in the sense that you've built something that can be used?

So design engineers, also something that I've been very much thinking about lately. And I even saw a post by Andy Budd, who was talking about a post by Peter Merholtz, I hope I'm not butchering his name, who is this design leader who just transitioned into a PM role. I think we're going to see a lot more of that with the progress of technology and

everything that's happening in the market right now, I think that there's going to be an increasingly stronger, more visible overlap between the designer and product manager. So historically speaking, we've always had some overlaps. We both have to think strategically. We both have to understand the system holistically. We both have to employ multiple ways of thinking, put multiple hats on

We're collaborating in a way in which sometimes it's the same role for some parts of the process. But I think in the future, if the product manager can employ technologies to visualize their thinking without needing to bring in the designer who thinks about things

from a crafting perspective, from an interaction. What if the AI can tell the product manager this is the right interaction pattern and this is the right information architecture and this is how the website should look like based on everything we've learned from research. So what if many of the designer roles can be, unfortunately, and I hope that's not the full reality, but a part of it,

But what if some of the things that we do can be outsourced by the product managers in the hands of AI and then they complement that and they challenge it and they refine it and they tweak it with their own thinking and their own knowledge and combining it with the business strategy, company objectives. But so here is an interesting question, which I don't have the answer to. Will we still need to have these roles, this

Or we just become makers, the people who make. Decide what gets to be made and then make it. And it's an oversimplification, but I don't think we're going to need as much granularity in our roles as we used to, right? So even with these kind of intersective things,

roles like design engineer, the fluid designer, the conversational designer, the model designer, which is something very particular to the AI space, even with all these intersections and mix and match and kind of new roles emerging, I think that we will actually see few

newer roles and they will eventually all lead up or converge towards the single role which is the product maker that also entails designing it and thinking about it and understanding it that's strategizing but it's going to be probably just one kind of role that kind of entails all these disciplines and knows how to bring them together part human part technology and so yeah i don't know if that's good news it's just what i think will happen what are your thoughts around this topic

All right. I feel like you were going through like literally like years of industry signals and trying to kind of mention everything. What I will try to do today, because I align with many of the things you mentioned, I will try to structure how I see this based on what you just said. So I think I'll start from the current market trend and what I personally see, just like you see.

I feel like today, many of the companies, they do look for visual craft designers. A lot of the times, and I see this everywhere on LinkedIn, on new design posts, because I'm following the market trends. I'm trying to help designers finding jobs right now. A lot of the jobs, especially in scale-ups, in the companies that are still hiring even during the tech crisis,

So mostly the companies that are hiring are those scale-ups that are rapidly growing. There are still niches, like companies that dominate one niche that are looking for talent. And these type of companies very often have the word visual craft, visual excellence, et cetera, in their job posts. So I do see the same sort of signal that on the market, people who are really good with UI strengths in the visual thinking.

I've heard this term somewhere. I don't want to speculate with more terms, but I feel this term could come up a few times. So there was this term fluid designer who thinks about design not being static, but being full of motion, you know, interaction design, this like animation, delight, etc. So the designers who are really good with visual design. And I see this at the

particular moment, so let's say end of 2024, I see this as like a part of the role description very often. In design posts, in LinkedIn especially, I see a lot of those discussions happening today. And don't get me wrong, I think this is a great niche today, but do I think it will be the only niche? I'm

not exactly sure what will happen with this particular niche in 2020, let's say five and on forward. Maybe in two years from now, when the market will not be so, let's say, in crisis, we will see some changes. And these are the changes we can start talking about today. This topic also came up a few times in the last episodes with Tommy Ngiyoko, who was the guest and the podcast host.

who did mention that he had seen a lot of the roles came into things, designing and also building things. So something that I was just touching about, right? When you are basically able to make things happen, make things either shipped or built and make sure it's in production, right? So not just designing concepts, but truly designing and shipping products and seeing how they are being implemented in the real world and so how people are using them, right? Not just having the concepts on the shelf.

So we can already start seeing, I think mostly the companies are looking today for visual craft designers or fluid designers, whatever we want to call them. I hate the naming, but whatever. And then the second part, those little bit less popular, but still design engineer, when we can see that some companies actually want to invest in people who do both things. And that kind of blurs the line on

Whether we are super-hipper, like specializing in one thing, so craft design, or we are actually specializing in doing two things at the same time. Five, 10 years ago, when we as design industry were very protective of this UX title because it sounded like we already have to do so many things at the same time, right? Ten, five years ago, we were saying designers shouldn't be coding because there are so many things we're already doing. We're doing research, we're doing prioritization, we're doing communication, we're exploring, we're facilitating, we're designing UI, we're building design systems.

we're sharing, we're tracking, we're analyzing all that, right? So where does the design engineering fit? There is no space for this because we already do so many things. Now today, somehow we found ourselves in the point where we suddenly could automate a lot of the things I just listed and focus also on designing and engineering. So we can see that the market trends are changing. The market is

Fluidity, I guess the word would be, is changing. One thing I also want to note here, and it's really about understanding the market dynamic today and as of end of 2024, is that this is the quote I have recently seen in one of the conference. And I made a photo of that sticky note on the wall in a conference. I really liked it. And the quote goes like, when there are layoffs, aka the crisis, people became more generalist. But when there is the boom, you specialize more.

And somehow, today we can see the effects of it, right? Because we have these specialized visual craft designers. They're design teams who lived off, let's say, half of the team. And now there's one designer who needs to do a lot of things. Now, suddenly, there is a need for designer to do many things. And we need, or many companies are looking for generalists, somebody who can do well a lot of the things, not just one niche, one specialty, be strong at some specific area, but really be good at

many of those things. You need to have this like not t-shaped personality, but I don't know, many verticals personality in a way. So that's an interesting perspective to think about. If we see in the future that companies will start hiring more proactively, not to say the boom, but at least the trend upwards with how many roles we see on the market will pick up and we will see warm-ups sort of stage on the design market next year, 2026 as well, then I believe there will be this trend for specialties.

Possibly. At least less fragmented, but like, let's say, two, three branches of design roles emerging. Whereas if the crisis will continue, I think possibly generalists will still dominate the market. This need for somebody who has experience, super seniors, like generalists and everything, maybe will still preserve its place in the market.

But as we already touched, few roles such as, okay, this super visual craft designer and design engineer in the companies that need to be a bit more agile and quicker buildings so the designer could do both design and engineering. What I also see, and at least I'm sending the signal to the cosmos, like I'm hoping this will also be some sort of an emerging niche, especially if the market will pick up.

is some sort of the new designer. Maybe this is like a new version of the design generalist, but I see one of those versions, like some sort of design PM emerging role. And I think this role could be applicable for more of the strategic designer who tend to be more, I guess, active on the first diamond of the double diamond. So those designers who typically design

do better at articulation, understanding, researching, prioritizing, strategizing, communicating, etc. In the future, theoretically, we could even see there are no PMs, but only sort of PM designers who build things, but not as of like visual excellence. However, they're very strategic. Maybe they're challenging the status quo, asking a lot of questions, all that stuff, right? So

I'm kind of sending a signal hoping there will be also space for a designer who can do PM job. I'm not saying that PMs will be gone. I think that in the future, we would see designers and PMs becoming one role. So designers will have to understand the technology better and become better as PMs.

But PMs would also have to understand design better and potentially with the rise of the AI, have even design concepts and also build that type of skills. But in the future, behind design could become one role. Who knows? That's the speculation I had in mind. But in the future, possibly we'd have this visual excellent designers, designers who can code or build things, and then designers who are essentially PMs as well.

But with that sort of base ground, right, these ideas that we have today on top of our mind, what I want to ask you, Ioana, is also to kind of speculate a little bit about the future of design career growths, career progress, career pathways.

So as of right now, in the last 10 years, we had like a really classic path, right? You would grow until the senior and then you have to fork, either become a manager or become super IC with lead principal, et cetera, roles. What do you think would happen to our career process? Will it be still relevant or should we all become ICs and just stuck there forever? What do you think?

It's a tough question because the market is also shifting in that aspect. So I was having a conversation yesterday with a leadership headhunter. They were telling me that the hardest roles to accommodate now are management and leadership roles. So there's not such a high need and I think this trend will continue.

for so many middle managers and right so it's like this layer of management that's neither very senior nor right an individual contributor is something that I don't think it's going to be as necessary as it used to be right so we've seen big companies that were laying off these layers of middle management first.

So I would say that if you want to remain competitive or pivot your career, continue or the areas in which you need to grow is like I was teasing earlier, this idea of being able to deliver experiences and to end. And I know it sort of contradicts everything we've learned about UX in our early days, in the golden days of UX, where we were all talking about specialize, find your niche, find your favorite industry.

become proficient in an industry now that's definitely not the case in 2025 now we have to be very versatile and able to accommodate whatever industry we can I mean sure if you have a great CV and great experience and a great portfolio you probably will be able to choose the company you work for for

big names, work for industries you like, but the opportunities for some parts are shrinking. So I think that what we need to do is work on our versatility, work on our curiosity, being open to kind of take parts of the process that we weren't necessarily working on in the past, right? So maybe coding with

the help of AI. I'm not saying learn how to code properly, go to engineering school, and we don't have to invest that level of energy, but just be permeable to these technologies and how the world is changing and experiment with them, right? So the more areas you can impact as a designer, the more secure your place in the market will be because companies are looking more and more for these kind of creators, makers, the people who are able to do things.

I think that this is what we need to move towards as an industry. Many of us designers were that. So you see a lot of designers who are building their products, building a side hustle, building a website, building things, or building a passion project. So you see that crafty archetype of designer. It's been on the market for a long time. But many others of us, we were trying to, should I niche on UI? Or should I niche on UX? Or should I niche on research? Or should I niche on UX writing? I don't think we see so much of that.

I think we should just cover things. And is this a call to incompetence? What I'm saying is definitely not. Do things you're not well positioned to do or do things you're not good at. By all means, if you can't do something, don't do it. I do think we should challenge our limits, right? And experiment with this new world.

and accept the fact that probably there are going to be a lot of startup roles, and they're looking for founding designers. What do founding designers do? Everything. There's going to be like, I don't see big companies growing their design orgs in the next couple of years. Many opportunities will be with emerging businesses, emerging agencies, emerging startups, startups in AI. What do those startups need? They need people who can get

their hands dirty and just maybe build something and run experiments and learn and have ideas and visualize them. And so it's like this, like I was saying earlier, making the ability to make things. This is what I think we should be all fighting for and reflect on whatever is holding you back. So for me, it's like building websites, right? But now with the Figma to Wix Studio plugin I was talking about earlier, that's to some part solved. Of course, you still need to edit. You still need to understand concepts like layout, responsiveness, blossom.

The knowledge still has to be there in your mind, right? But what I'm saying is understand what your blind spots are and start seeing if you can fill them up with knowledge, with experience, with experiments, with learning, with AI, collaborating with people to kind of build things. But the key here is we're all going to be builders. And so how do you prepare for that?

And it's a personal question, right? Everybody has to answer it on their own. What do you feel about this? You had a really good strong points here. So it's very hard to pick up and add anything on this because I aligned and felt the same way with you. You are very right. I feel like there is a big trend for like startup designers, like not just startup designers, but there are much more roles. If you still want to find a job today and you need to get paid and not just always be like...

an intern sort of mindset shoes the only real big industry that i see today looking for designers is startups and like there are a lot of startups who need the designers but they also need designers who are not just super junior designers right because when you're junior of course you're looking for mentorship you're looking for a team you can learn from others and it's totally understandable and it's very very noble that you really want to learn from others you'll grow faster when you learn from others but

Today, if you're a junior, you're in a very tough spot because mostly the companies are looking for super seniors. And unless you are very open and showing the creativity and curiosity and willing to learn in multiple of those tough. And so a lot of the designers I personally see today in the market, especially junior designers, if in the past it was enough to maybe, I don't know, spend six months, 10 months

maximum 12 months to search for the first design job. Today, I see those designers actually, especially given the last three years, tech crisis situation, I've seen more designers in the last three years actually spending time just to learn the design. Literally not working, still preserving their background jobs.

but learning design. So literally, for example, the very popular case I see today in the community is the designer who took the bootcamp during the COVID times, so 2020, 2021, and it's been now three years later, and they're still sort of educating themselves around the design, right? So

either doing the side projects, hobby projects, sometimes joining hackathons, sometimes building more projects, just experimenting and learning, but not learning within the company because it's really tough to find a team today and actually find the early stage career design role. And so I do see there is a lot of those people who currently struggle because they are not still like super seniors, right? They are not generalists that who could excel at everything.

And that's what the market is asking us to do today. And it's really, really tough. And I'm not sure if I'm making any point. I'm just kind of rambling about the market at the moment. Becoming the maker, I'm still hopeful that we could take advantage of our natural strong skills, to be very honest with you. I know that at the moment, you just need to be great at everything and that's it. That's the market.

And you know, when we're thinking about our portfolios in our homepage of the portfolio, we have this space for one liner. What makes you different than others? What's your punchline, right? And this is like a starting point to search for the designer today. It means you need to reflect on still your strong sides and what makes you different. You still need to stand out. You still need to embrace your strengths on the market.

It's like we kind of have an interesting market today. There is still this legacy of being T-shaped. You need to be T-shaped. You still need to embrace your strengths. And this is what I'm really, really good at. But the T, the bottom area of the T letter needs to become thicker. You cannot just be like, I know a little bit of everything. You need to be really strong at everything, but still have your own vertical, your strong pillar that you excel at. And that's interesting.

I mean, again, we are having this kind of very speculative conversation today, but that's an interesting sort of angle because I still feel like we need to be aware about our strengths. And while we want to pitch a holistic process that we're building things, we're shipping things, we're putting it into the market and we're proud of the work we're doing. It's not just some MVPs on MVPs and quick fixes, but really the product that could excel on the market, that could become the product people are proud of putting out there.

It's very important today in the current market situation. I still feel like it's important that you understand where you excel and while you are embracing all those pillars and building things, still having your own strengths that you are proud of and something that you know that some company will appreciate.

But the last thing I will ask you, Ioana, before we wrap this up is you did mention interesting thought and I just kind of felt for a second a little bit sad, but I wanted to hear your thoughts around this. So you did say that we're kind of having the generalist role, maker role today. This probably will be the future. What do you think will happen to the researchers and content designers? These are

also parts of the design orgs there used to be for the last 10-15 years. Do you think we will still need researchers? Do you think we will still need content designers? Do you think these roles will actually have to disappear? What's our take on this? Yeah, well, I have two specific thoughts on that. For content designers, I feel that they...

will probably experiment with the model designer role. So content designers, they might transition into shaping what's fed into the models that we use. They're gonna shape conversations

for AI, the responses that people get when they're interacting with AI, what's the tone of voice for that AI, what is the personality, if any, that needs to be conveyed in that interaction. So they might want to start looking at that conversational, the model design, the knowledge design, the surfacing of knowledge. So there's going to probably be an opportunity to transition into that.

And researchers, I think also will hold a very important part in the future. But they will also need to kind of specialize less on usability testing. Here's the thing with usability testing with AI tools and tools that generally surface and employee AI, you have to build it to test it, right? Because part of understanding how an experience unfolds is the technical quality of what's being generated or produced or communicated. So we

are not going to test Figma prototypes so much in the future, but we will test actually living organisms. And it's going to be less about usability and more about understanding if the knowledge in that model is right, if the way it conversates is right. So we're not going to be testing conventional UI elements, right? Is the button visible enough? Probably all buttons will be visible enough. AI will tell us if they're not.

But we will be learning about how people interact. So it's like a new world to be understood. What are the mental models that people have around AI? What are the expectations? What triggers them in a negative way? What causes them fear? What makes them reluctant? What makes them understand? How do we educate on the art of possible everyone that interacts with this AI system, right? So

So both of these roles will have this sort of reshuffling, retuning, and they will have to orientate towards different kinds of challenges within that role, right? But they're still going to be valuable. And so, yeah, those are my thoughts.

Do you have anything in mind around these roles? No, I love this because I was a bit worried that maybe the content designers, I don't know what's the future of them, but I totally feel you. Like you're right with thinking about modeling conversation design. It's very interesting because I'm not very embedded in this context.

It's very curious to hear your perspective. And for me, it was an insightful part. For the researchers, I kind of agree with you because even today in my company, when we think about the future of research, we don't have too many researchers, to be honest. Like in the past, we used to have this kind of ratio. You need to have this amount of researchers, but this amount of designers, etc. Today, designers are obviously still dominant in terms of amount and the teams. But somehow like the researchers ratio

ratio is shrinking. So I see less and less researchers per team, but that's because I think there may be in the future less need for researchers to be a part of every project, to understand everything. I think as a researcher, you would have to become this kind of librarian, knowledge holder, somebody who understands not just the usability part of things, like you said, but also like

It's not obviously known that the researchers need to do the discovery and understand the market trends, but what if they go even beyond that and understand the business market trends, the ecosystem trends, right? That would probably become even a bigger lever for the research industry. So understanding really where they should be going, like maybe even becoming the consultants,

for the teams, the products. So instead of just like running those usability tests, like you said, I wonder, like there was a lot of decisions could be automated with like quantitative data, statistical data, whereas understanding the trends and the peculiarity of the market, I don't know if the input of the AI could be as relevant in the next few years. So maybe that's where we will see the researcher as research industry moving towards. But I don't know, we're still speculating. It's very interesting to see what's going to come. And I'm happy we're having this conversation at the

end of the year. Well, think about it. This is the end of 2024. So we are emerging or we are coming into 2025. So the first quarter of the century is almost behind. And I'm happy we're having this conversation because I feel like the next quarter of the century would be very interesting with the last AI and tech

everything trends, we will see something changes. And every time we have these conversations, I'm leaving it being a bit more curious about what's going to happen, starting picking up those signals and being more aware about the market. Because if you don't do this, we're not becoming so actual in the future. We're not setting ourselves up for success in the next years. So I'm loving these conversations. Thank you so much for sharing all your insight today. I also hope that these insights were useful to our listeners. I took out some things from this conversation. I

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