#121 How to prevent burnout? w/Meg Rye & Laurence Galland
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A common theme I hear from my clients is that they want to be emotionally detached and they think that that's going to prevent burnout. Actually, I think it's quite the opposite. Engaging with your emotions is one of the best ways to prevent burnout because it's accepting everything. I mean, you are a blend, you know, like you're in your cortex, you're a reptilian part of the brain, you know, your emotion, your sensations. And usually this can be the knock.

on the door you've been ignoring. All emotions have a purpose. If we don't listen to them, if we don't listen to the message, we're missing out on something. So it's like, this is not scientific, but it's like using only 50% of information that you can get.

Hello everyone and welcome to a new episode of Honest UX Talks. Today we have very special guests joining us and we will be discussing a topic that by the end of a year, especially by the end of this year, is a topic that concerns us all as designers and people working in tech. We're going to be discussing...

burnout and what we can do to prevent it as designers. And it's a topic that for our regular listeners, you know by now I care about mental health and these kinds of topics in general. So I'm very excited to have this conversation. I want to introduce Meg Rye. I've been following Meg for a long time on LinkedIn. She's been the

A recruiter, one of the most visible and important recruiters I've met up for a very long time. And she started her own recruiting and coaching company, Good Maven. And so she can bring a wealth of experience to this conversation, talking with probably most of the senior designers in the industry over the past couple of years.

And we're also joined by Laurence Galland, who's also working with Meg. She's an experienced executive and leadership coach, and she can also bring a very deep perspective on how burnout is affecting the design industry and what we can do to survive it and hopefully avoid it.

But before jumping into the topic of today, I just want to take a moment to talk about Wix Studio, which is our amazing sponsor that we're very grateful for. We get to work with incredible products and that's amazing. In case you don't know what Wix Studio is, it's essentially a new web platform that's specially designed for agencies and enterprises. So it's designed to empower people.

professional designers, advanced designers and developers, marketers who create websites for clients or large organizations. So it's a sophisticated, complex tool that addresses complex needs. So if you're anywhere in that space, you have to try it out. And if you're anywhere in that space, also, let's be real, working on web projects is always a complex

juggling act. You have your creative vision on one side, and then there's also the not-so-fun stuff like tight deadlines, budgets, client feedback, a million other moving parts, right? So the tools you use really matter. You want smart, professional, advanced tools that support you in dealing with all the complexity.

And Wix Studio is designed exactly for that. So it gives you a wide range of solutions that enable you to deliver your vision smartly. So it has the, let's say, basic foundational intuitive design capabilities that let you design in the way that you're used to according to your mental models. But it also gives you a set of advanced tools that give you total control over every process.

pixel and it's packed with built in AI tools that make your workflow faster, management tools that streamline processes, and it really helps you work with bigger clients, grow your business. And it's an instrument for scaling your business essentially. So the tools we use really matter and the better the tools, the better the outcome and essentially the better the business. So yeah, we're very happy that this tool exists in the design industry and we

want to make sure that you at least try it out if you're anywhere near this description. So thank you Wix Studio and thanks to everyone who's trying out amazing tools. We really appreciate your curiosity. Now let's get back to the conversation of today. I'm gonna just say hi Meg, hello Laurence, thank you for joining us and yeah I just want to invite you to share a

and what made you interested in this topic, but mostly where you come from in this conversation, what has been your recent professional experience, and yeah, just a couple of intro words about yourselves. Meg, if you would like to start, hi, and thank you for joining us. Hi, everyone, and thanks, Iwana, so much for having Laurence and I. So I've also been a fan for a long time and follow Honest UX and follow you on Instagram, so I'm excited to be here today.

One of the things that ties all three of us in this conversation together is our passion for being of service to the community. And that's really the ethos with which I was inspired to start my own company. So it was sort of a dream I had after being at Meta a long time and working in the design recruitment field for almost 20 years. So I went through the process of certifying as a coach.

And I just saw that there was a lot of opportunity to support designers to make decisions in their best interests, right? And there's so many, I don't know, ways in which recruitment and just the tech industry in general, it can be a place that it asks a lot of people, right? And so how do we create a system or a community? And how can I use my skills to be of service to folks? Eight months ago, started my own company. And so far,

We hire mostly for designers in EMEA in the US. And then we have a cadre of wonderful coaches. And Laurence is our senior most executive coach. And I think she actually offers a really unique perspective because she's not of the design industry. Laurence.

why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself? Thank you, Meg. And thank you for inviting us, Joanna. It's a pleasure to be with you and to engage more with the design community as well. So I've been coaching for the last six years exclusively. But before that, I've spent 10 years in HR, in human resources for the food and tourism industry, mainly in global roles. My

background regarding studies in international business. I'm also the proud mom of two boys who were born preterm and my first boy was born at 25 weeks, so extremely preterm, had a lot of health issues, he had brain hemorrhage and so since then, so since the end of 2019, I've been also very involved in the perinatal medicine and

in the UK and also globally. So I joined the executive committee of the British Association of Perinatal Medicine, focusing on how we can support these children. I've also joined EI Smart, an early intervention charity, offering an early intervention framework for these children. And I've been also involved in neurosurgery trials. So when you look at the three different experiences, HR, coaching, and perinatal medicine, burnouts, I see it on a weekly basis.

So I saw it, you know, in my HR experience at an organization level, looking at what we could do to prevent burnout. I'm seeing it, you know, like weekly and sometimes daily with my coaching clients. And obviously I see it with the parents and also in other healthcare professionals who go through huge amounts of stress and PTSD in these environments.

And so today I'm coming, you know, to talk with the design community. But I think my message is that burnout is universal. I've been coaching clients, you know, in like 30 different industries, more than 40 different countries with different cultures as well. And it's always a topic which exists. So I'm really looking forward to the discussion today. You know, we will have three of us.

Thank you so much. I'm listening to your intros makes me very grateful to be able to have this conversation and just exchange ideas. And maybe I don't know, I think even on a personal level, this is a very good moment for me to explore this space.

It feels very timely, not just because it's the end of the year, but on a personal level, for the past couple of years, I've experienced a lot of, let's say, challenges, wouldn't call them difficulties, but the entire design industry went through a pandemic, which was

pretty costly on our energy levels, mental health, motivation, and so on. And then I am based in Bucharest in Eastern Europe. When the pandemic started to fade out, I also had a child, my first child during the pandemic. So that was also something that on a very personal level affected me and made things professionally complicated. And then also the war in Ukraine broke out and

this added a new level of stress. We have a border with Ukraine, but it's not just that. It's the suffering of the people who are our neighbors and it's just happening here. I think it affected the entire world, but maybe this geography in particular. So we had pandemic, we had war, now a

downturn people are getting laid off all over the world in the US the situation is very bad I don't see silver lining anymore at this point I personally feel completely at loss of hope and energy and I'm trying to regain it I now have

a child. I have to be hopeful and driven and motivated, but it's very, very hard after the past couple of years. I'm personally interested in unpacking this problem space, but I would love to learn more about what have you observed talking with...

so many designers over the years and what they're dealing with. So Meg, what's your reflection on what the design industry has been experiencing for the past couple of years? What have you noticed? Where are we today at the end of 2024? What's going on?

I think I first want to just notice in this conversation, you know, the way that you shared so openly with us, Iwana, and Laurence did as well, is that we all have these different aspects of our identity that impact how we show up at work, how we show up in life. And so for each of us, there's going to be a different recipe for how we get to or start to approach burnout and also how we prevent it or recover from it.

So just to validate that and say, you know, all three of us are examples of very intersectional identities that also overlap in some ways, but are very different. So Lohant and I are in the UK, but I'm American and British, and she's French and British, you know, all of these different parts of ourselves, like sort of impact in a different way. But

I guess to take it back to design and tech, you're so right. I mean, burnout is significant and widespread in the tech sector, as well as Laurent said, it's not unique to the tech sector. But I think estimates are around, you know, 50 to 70% of people who are surveyed at any given time

may say that they feel symptoms of being overwhelmed or burnout and things like that. And I think that there are some key things that really contribute to it within tech and for designers. So, you know, you mentioned COVID and I think just unpredictability and that volatility in the outside world and also the inside world, especially with COVID and then the resulting redundancies. So that creates this heightened level of anticipation of trauma or like literal experience of trauma.

So for me, I guess it manifests I have a very close family member who has long COVID and that's necessitated a change for me in relation to my job. So being a company owner is not just about an aspiration that I had in a dream. It's also about practical implications, right? Like how can I live my best life and be in support of those around me? And some of the other things I think that are particular to me

tech, but may overlap with other industries as well. So just high expectations, rapid change, chronic lack of work-life balance, depending on the nature of the company that you're working in, depending on the culture, it could be toxic or unhealthy. And also there's a lot of scrutiny. And I think that that reminds me of a conversation LaFrance and I were having a few days ago about

identity, right? And how identity as working in big tech or working as a designer can really connect to this issue. Laurence, would you mind to jump in and share a bit about that? Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Meg. To build on your previous point that the

burnout is going to be displayed differently from one person to another. We don't have the same definition of balance or we don't have the same perception of our resources. So burnout can take one form very different from one person to another and the ways to prevent them also. So I think it's really individual work. And I think that's why coaching can really help to prevent it, for instance.

because there is not one recipe, you know, fitting all the needs. I've had, you know, like several clients in the design industry, but also in the other industries, I hear more and more people saying that they've had burnout or that they're close to burning out. And so it gives me the impression that there are more people stressed than before. But also at the same time, I think people are more open about it. And for me, that gives me a lot of

hope. So I think we're also now, you know, in a society where it's okay to share our mental health struggles. And I think the first way, you know, to prevent burnout and to get out of it, if you're already in burnout, is recognizing that it is happening, not being in denial, and then you can do something about it. It's about choosing to make something about it. And then obviously, you know, you can look at who can support you, obviously, if you're really

in the phase of burnout you may need to have you know like psychological support like having doctors supporting you you can also have a coach and a coach is more likely also to help you prevent it or recover from it also afterwards but to your point may you know regarding the identity maybe what has been different in the last decades is that a lot of people are

merging their identity with their work. Whereas maybe, you know, a few decades ago, again, it depended on the different cultures and different geographies. But maybe there was more support collectively in some cultures. You used to live with your family, so you really had a support network and your identity was also linked with them.

place you had in the community. Whereas I think that especially, you know, in the Western countries, a lot of your identity is built at work. And what I've noticed also is that the more the emotional bond is important between you and your organization with very strong cultures where you're very proud to work for a famous, recognized organization,

And the more you're at risk of burnout, because actually your job, your status, the organization you're working for is a part of your identity. And you feel that if actually, you know, you're not performing there or if you're no longer there or if you're at risk of redundancy, then who are you going to be? What will happen to your identity?

And you feel that actually you don't choose anymore, but you have to adapt to fit and to really, you know, like keep performing according to your narrative. So I think that can be one of the dangers also that can lead some people in burnout.

I resonate deeply with the identity problem. Getting back on an individual level, this is the only experience I can speak from. I have been identifying as a designer so deeply that it was not just I had a full-time job. I had side projects and then I made UX goodies and being active in the community, my free time definition of who I am. So even in my free time, I'm doing things around

of design. My friends are designers and everything. Like my life became that. The pandemic definitely and just working from home for a long time blurred the lines of who I am and how do I define my identity? How would I introduce myself in the world? And many times I would start with I'm a designer and

and I'm also a mother so why isn't that the strongest voice in my head when I talk about myself but I really resonate with this and I'm working for the past year I'm just shuffling around values doing all sorts of internal exercises trying to detach myself from this definition because I've experienced this merging that Laurence you've been talking about getting back to the topic of burnout it

self-identifying, like a person working in tech and that's who I am, definitely contributes. I think it's one of the main causes of burnout and I've experienced it myself. But we keep talking about burnout as an industry, but I mean, if we talk about COVID, we know the symptoms, right? You're going to cough and then you're going to have fever and you're going to probably have a runny nose. But what is burnout really and how does it manifest? What are the symptoms? I've

heard multiple versions of experiencing a burnout. I think everyone has their own flavor of burnout when they get in this very dark place. But what are the symptoms? How does it manifest? And how can I know I'm experiencing it? And so, Laurence, what are some cues that you might be heading towards it or you're already in it? And yeah, what is it really?

So I'm not a doctor or therapist. I just want to put this out there. But what I've been noticing and what the people who went through burnout told me, as you say, it has a different flavor. It's different from one person to another because we're all different. I would personally define burnout as when you've exhausted all of your resources.

So you've burned all your resources. And the resources you have are different one person to another. The way you burn them is different from one another. And then the consequences will be different from one another. I've seen when I was working HR, I saw an employee who could not enter into the building. So she could actually not move into the building and she collapsed.

That was how it manifested. For others, you know, it was crying, saying that they had no choice. For others, it was like long sickness. For others, it was losing the appetite, you know, for daily activities. So I think, you know, you have very different symptoms, but usually you feel, you know, like exhausted or you're...

not enjoying activities you used to enjoy in the past you can't recover as quickly as before you have like physical manifestation and it depends from one person to another and you also have signs before you know like collapsing and the burnout so you have sometimes you know like slightly

physical signs it's like someone knocking at your body knocking at the door and saying hey look you have some tension in your neck you know or you have more calls than usual and you ignore these knocks on the door and then while someone is actually smashing the door at the end and that's when you totally burn out and you have no doors anymore

But again, the signs are very different. And then obviously, sometimes you have so many things happening at the same time. So you may have been at risk of burning out. And then something, you know, happens like I was mentioning my personal experience of having extremely preterm children. Imagine you have that.

in the middle of the pandemic, and then you're on furlough because actually, you know, a company is, so you have financial insecurity and then I know you're losing your parents and you have a diagnosis. Imagine if you had all these things, you don't have only one cause, but you may have many, many things going on at the same time. But I would summarize it with actually not having the resources you need to function properly anymore.

Meg, what's your view on it? As you describe that, I think it's just so lovely that, Ioana, you can ask a very specific question and, Laurence, you can start to name what it can look like.

Because I think when people come to me, oftentimes it's if they're at risk of burnout or maybe in burnout, it's I need to change my job and I need to do it now. And that is seen as the solution. But it's so important. And I think this is where coaching can come in handy is to root cause the problem.

And that's going to be so different for each individual person. And that may involve a certain amount of asking yourself to name what it is that's happening for you. And that may mean listening to your body, which, you know, some of us, we become a stranger to our own body. We just don't listen to it. We say, I'll get to that another day or I'll sleep another day or whatever it may be. So I think the first thing is really listening and unpacking what is it that is causing

causing this at the root? And then how can we sort of change that behaviorally or change our relationship to that? So we prevent ourselves from going to the next job or whatever the next thing is thinking that's a cure. But unless if we know why and what characteristics of that next transition or next point is, we may go there and then experience the same cycle over and over again. Your

already entering the space of my next question, which is what can we do once we're there? And then I want us to spend more time unpacking the prevention space, which is, I think, the most important part of this conversation, because like with any disease, it's much better and in a way easier to prevent it than to recover and deal with the consequences of some things that sometimes are irreversible. Hopefully burnout is reversible.

Before we move into how to avoid it in the first place, what are some things that you can do once you're there in the darkness of this experience? So seek professional help. So it will depend on what stage you are. But, you know, like, again, it depends on the countries. But see maybe your doctor first, like a generalist doctor may be able to advise, depending.

and, you know, physical symptoms you have, who could recommend, you know, going to a therapist or maybe, you know, like more clinical support. So that would be my first recommendation because we don't know how serious, when I say serious, it could cause people to harm themselves. Seek, you know, like professional help first.

And then these people will be able to signpost you to the relevant people able to support you. So that's, you know, my first answer when you are, you know, burnt out already. So regarding how to prevent it. So as we've discussed earlier, I think it's a really personalized approach. So I can talk about how we can prevent it with my coaching hat in mind. When we look at the resources is first of all, knowing what your resources are and

knowing what gives you energy or what depletes you. So there is, when you start coaching, coaching can help you to get to know you better. So the more you know yourself and the better you know how to use yourself, basically, as the tool to engage in life. So knowing what resources you have, knowing what gives you joy, knowing what gives you energy to do more of it,

Knowing what can cost you energy so that you can always balance. It's like a bank account, you know, you have your credit and debit. You don't want to be in debit. So sometimes, you know, you're going to wasting more energy, but it's worth it. And you know that actually you'll get, you know, more money back in your bank account. But it's always, you know, having this balance in mind and being mindful of it. And sometimes it may not be as obvious as it may sound because you may have, you know, like contradictions.

and you may have many things going on sometimes unconsciously as well. So the first thing is defining also what you want and what you choose to do. When I was listening to your introduction, you and I were talking about your different roles and your role as a mom. You were saying, well, I have to be like that. I'm a mom. And when you say, no, I have to, actually you're adapting yourself and you think you have no choice. You have to do it. What we're doing with coaching is shifting away from all the needs expected

expectations pressure you're putting on yourself to what do you choose to do as a mom, as you know, a designer, you know, as an individual, and actually for your brain, that's a complete different paradigm. Because when you're thinking in terms of everything you have to do,

For your brain, it's a constraint. And it's meaning that you're going to waste energy doing it. And your brain has been designed to make you save energy. So probably your brain and your neocortex would be like quite handy and finding strategies to protect you like procrastination or things like that. But sometimes not. Especially in your inner culture where in your childhood, you know, you were told how to behave, how to adapt, you know, to adults' expectations.

And then because you've done that, you had a lot of external validation and recognition. So you've kept doing it and then you were successful at work. So you really want to do what has been helpful in the past. But then you reach a point where it's no longer to be helpful because you're going to head straight into burnout. And that's where coaching can help you and say, oh, yes, you have this belief really encoded in your brain that if you really reply to all the expectations, if you satisfy all of the needs,

then you will be loved, then you will be recognized, then you will belong to this community. But however, how long can you do that for? And how do you want to change this code line in your brain so that actually going forward, you are choosing to invest this amount of time in this community because that gives you this. Because you want to do this as a mother and that's your priority because you want your child to have this.

And actually choosing gives you the energy because you have something you're looking forward to. It's not moving away from something you're scared about, like not belonging anymore to the community. So how can you recognize with what you really want and what you're choosing to do as well? And so I think that's the most important thing for me is for people to be really aware of what they want, what gives them energy.

and go after it. And you know, when you were saying, well, we were talking about the identity and it's interesting because sometimes we talk as we're fixed. We're not fixed. You know, if we were here when we were five years old and we say, yeah, I'm a five year old and I'm like that. And the following year, you're not. We see that we've grown. We see that we're getting older, but we think that it's going to stop. And like, we're not going to mature anymore in the future, but change is constant.

So whenever you hear yourself saying, well, this is the way I am. I am like that. I need to give 200% or I am a good designer because I'm doing that, that, that. Actually to reflect, to step away from that, having a growth mindset and tell ourselves, well, in the past, I've been doing this, this and this.

In the past, in my design role, I've been doing this and this. And now going forward, I'm choosing to do that. So we can always rewire completely and do things completely differently. And I think that's also the key to feel that actually you get this locus of control back on you. You're controlling who you want to be, what you want to do, and how you want to use these resources. In the past, I used to work a lot. And at the same time, I wanted to be present for every child show at school.

cool and at the time I wanted to do that and I wanted to do my podcast and now going forward I'm choosing to do that and use my energy like that and do this so really choosing I really resonate as I'm listening to you I feel grateful that I've experienced enough things in the past 10 years in my role as a designer to really get what you're saying

I have this level of gratitude to understand the nuances and the depth of this idea of where your energy goes into and what gives you energy, what takes energy. And it's so hard to know in the beginning. So if I'm reflecting at my first half of design career, it's like, I don't know, I think this gives me energy. This is what's supposed to give me energy. To your also point about how we constrain our brain with words.

what we think we should do and what we think we should be. And then our brain protests with small sabotage acts where it doesn't show up in the way we would need it or think we would need it to. So I've experienced all of this. So now I have the, let's say, enough life experience to really, really understand the depth of what you've described. And I've been through all of this. For me, it's a very, very important exercise that makes me at once feel less alone and

in everything I've experienced, but also kind of, it gives me permission. I feel like listening to you now, I'm getting permission to do whatever I want to do next, which is not aligned with what I was supposed to do in the eye of society, my family, my friends, my bosses and whatever. And I feel like, okay, if I don't want to do design anymore, let's say, and I want to move into art, which is something that I've been contemplating for the past year, I can

do that. I don't have to wait for someone's approval. The structures in my mind, they're not necessarily mine. And I can build my own structures. I can build my own vision. I can do that. And so I understand the value of coaching as we're recording this podcast. So yeah, it's a very interesting ongoing exercise. Meg, what's your advice or experience? What do you feel designers and not just designers, like everyone in tech and not just in tech?

like everyone in the world what can people do first with the focus maybe on designers since they're mostly the folks listening to us what can they do today to prevent burnout as I feel like it feels so imminent right with everything that's going on and we've all been pushing to cope with the

big problems and big themes that have been going on around us and it's the end of the year and things are not looking great and so I feel like it's a real danger with us in the room what can they do today just one last thought before I let you take the stage I feel like sometimes I would have loved to not have a job anymore like just say you know what I'm taking six months off but then

the immediate reaction was, I'm so privileged to have a job. So many people don't have a job. So many people are going to get laid off. They've gotten laid off. I'm a spoiled brat in essence. Think about, I need a holiday right now because my mind is tired and people really are struggling with these opportunities. And then also the second thought,

after this thought was, what if I will not be able to find another job again? So I think many people stay in toxic work relationships because they're afraid, like it happens in our personal life as well. They're afraid that they will not be able to secure another role, especially in this economy. So if somebody is in this situation or a version of it, or just experiencing the threat of burnout, Meg, what can they do today to avoid it?

So I think the strategy for everyone will be different. And one of the things that you were noticing a minute ago, Iwana, is that just having the opportunity to be asked questions in the way that Laurence was asking them, it opens us up to being able to understand ourselves and what we need in a different way.

Most of the conversations we have, and these could be conversations with loved ones or with people at work, the other person in the conversation always has or typically often has an MO, right? There's something they want to accomplish out of it. So their orientation towards us affects how we think about ourselves, how we orient ourselves in that conversation. And I think where coaching is...

such a different and unique opportunity is the coach does not have an MO. The coach's MO is to support you in what it is that you'd like to accomplish. So suddenly you just have someone who is infinitely curious about you, who helps you be infinitely curious about yourself and who helps you understand these voices that are saying,

well, I can't, I have to do all the things this way or that way or the other way because maybe it's ingrained from childhood, maybe it's something from work, maybe it's something that is, yeah, that has some other inner narrative.

So I think that's where coaching can help people get the clarity. And then in terms of what to do next, I think it's sort of like, it makes me think of that saying measure twice and cut once. So we need to measure what it is that we need to change for us. And then the cutting actually becomes easy. The next step actually becomes a lot easier because we know what that is. So I think in the example, that's probably most relevant to a lot of designers that come to me is I just need to change my job. I'm burning out. And,

Meg, please help me change my job and that will solve the problem. As Lawrence might say, this is almost anti-commercial, but I would probably say before I help you find your next job, let's actually identify what it is that you need to move towards or move away from and help you get there. And what that might be is saying actually is designed for you. Or is it that the environment is toxic where you are and that's impacting you? Or is it that, you know, dot, dot, dot, a million other things?

So I think doing that little bit of work or maybe a lot of work in the beginning. And I think that's where LaVance is just a really amazing coach and supporting people to do that in a reflective work. And then I think where I'm a good partner is, okay, great. Now that we're, we're getting an idea of where we want to go next.

How do we take the practical steps? And that's maybe things like building a clear narrative from where you are now to where you want to go next. Let's say you want to go from being a designer to an artist. What does that narrative look like? How do we articulate that across our CV, our resume, our LinkedIn? How do we embody that narrative in a way where we feel like it's not fake? Like this is real. This is us. This is where we're going next, right? How do we choose portfolio pieces that personify that? I mean, these are all the pragmatic bits that people think is the work.

But this actually becomes super easy once you know where you're going, right? Because all of these materials are in support of that next place. You can see I get energized. I get really passionate when I talk about this because I think when you experience it yourself and when you see other people be able to get unstuck and make this transition and heal, it's a really beautiful thing to witness. And I think that's part of what gives me joy in the work that I do. What do you think, Laurence?

That's beautifully explained. And I love when I see all your energy and your passion behind it. And that's where you know you have energy. So like right now, Meghna is not wasting her energy, but we're doing something that gives her energy and she's able to recognize it. That's lovely to see. I think, you know, sometimes we tend to think in terms of what's right and wrong. Like, is it right or wrong to leave my job when others, you know, have been made redundant? And I think coaching helps you move.

away from being right or wrong to what you want and what's helpful to get it. So I want to consider whether, you know, I should shift my design career to an artist career. What would help me do that? Well, be able to step back, reconnect with myself and maybe change

a holiday is what I need. And maybe resigning will help me. So these are the things that it's not right, it's not wrong, it's what you want and what will help you get there, knowing yourself. Maybe for you, it's a holiday. For another person, maybe, you know, like a lunch with someone, you know, from,

the different industry to have a chat. For others, you know, it may be, you know, like the first having the financial security to be able, you know, to think about, okay, what do I want to do next? But it's about asking the questions about, okay, what do I want to do? What will help me get there instead of is it okay or is it not okay? And I think usually sometimes we tend to think in terms of either or. Either I stay in my job or I quit my job.

Either I do something and then I'm financially safe or I do, you know, a passion. And so we tend to create that limnize, whereas actually coaching helps you expand the opportunities. So there are not only two solutions. You can do, I want this and that.

And that and that. And if you go to a search engine and you say, well, I don't know, I want to have either a bike or something blue, you will have like very restrictive, very different results. But if you say, well, I want a bike which is blue and have a yellow bell and blah, blah, blah, you can still have some results as well. So that's, you know, the things we're doing is like, yes, you want to be happy, feel energized, provide for your family, be able to contribute to a community.

These are, and you're working in the creative industry, these are your constraints, which actually can foster more creativity because that's your framework. So yes, we are living in a society where you have more and more inequalities. You have war, you have insecurity, you have lots of diseases, you have all of the things. And then what do you want to do in this environment? You're not going to change the environment, but what do you want to do in this context?

with these, you know, constraints. And that's how, where actually you can be really stressed by everything, you know, happening. But what do you want to do with it? And I think sometimes we tend to be stressed for things we have no control over. Or we say, well, actually, I really want, you know, my manager, you know, to be proud of me. Well, that's not an objective we're going to work on because you have absolutely no control whatsoever on it. However, what are you looking for with your managers, you know, validation? What's important for you? And then when we have questions,

Put a word on it. That's what we're going to work towards. So always coming back to what's in your control while actually feeling coming back home at the end of the day and knowing that actually you've given your best, looking at yourself in the mirror, being proud of yourself. That's something we can work towards.

And probably, you know, that will make your manager happy because you will be well, you know, and you will perform even better. But that's, you know, really something we can work on. This also speaks to me because I resonate with this idea of focusing on what you can control, especially during this very particular week in which, and this is just a side path I'm going to quickly go on and then come back.

But in Romania, the political situation is very, very bad this week. We're choosing our new president and the far right extremist political group is getting a lot of popularity and they will probably win. And they're also pro-East and Russia. And it's like very gloomy. I feel sometimes during this week, I'm doing my best to convince people to see

the propaganda and so on I'm very emotionally involved in it and yesterday I had some friends have an intervention on me and tell me look I think you're too into it and you're consuming too much energy and you really can't control it you know and I'm like no we are we are the ones who

can change the world then so what do you mean I can't control it if I convince two people but then I realize I'm risking my mental health in this pursuit of fighting random people on the internet to convince them that far right and whatever is extreme in the world is not

good and we need a more balanced approach politically and in everything and in society and so I'm just consuming so much energy on something that's external is important I think politic is but I can vote right so that's what all I have to do is like be sad about what's happening but not be able to wake up or sleep or some other things I've experienced so

this also really taps into my personal experience these days getting too involved in external things and yeah I feel that what I should be doing is focusing on my reaction to what's happening around me and how I am experiencing this so thank you for helping me navigate a lot of things we got

a lot of insights from this conversation. For me personally, I took both actionable tips and also important abstractions and philosophical points about what it means to be a person and a person working in a role and how that is translating into our internal model of ourselves. This was very, very meaningful

And I really appreciate our time. And I want to invite you both to share last points or the main takeaway that you would like folks to have as we approach the end of our conversation. So, Meg, if you want to go first, is there anything that you feel should be the main message of the conversation around burnout and how to prevent it?

Maybe I'll first share an observation and then see if the summary comes to me. So you said just a moment ago, Oana, about the feeling of community and change and the difficulty of what's going on in Romania and that that can impact.

in one way be taxing for you and take your energy. And in another way, I feel like the bringing together that you do of folks in the design community and this podcast is a great example of it. This is also another way of being in community, right? And a moment ago, we touched upon being in the West and the global North. There is this individualism thread through things that can make us detach from other people and suffer in silence.

And so I think examples like this, where we come together as individuals or as groups in the design community and create that sense of interconnectedness, it helps us realize we're not alone and it helps us resource ourselves to move towards what it is that we do want. So I guess I just want to put a finger on community and how it can be a useful aspect of healing. And then I guess the main summary point to take away is that

Burnout is going to be completely different for each individual person, right? That said, and so the journey towards prevention or healing from burnout is going to be very different. And I think seeking out whatever resources are going to help you in your personal journey of which, you know, maybe coaching can be one, maybe therapy. I think seeking out that next step for help in your own journey is what's going to get you to final result. How about you, Laurence?

Well, I know we're wrapping up, but I'd like to reflect on the emotions you've shared, you know, Joanna, regarding your context and about feeling sad and people telling you, well, you really want to feel sad in this context and you can just vote.

I think actually we haven't touched upon emotions, but sometimes a common theme I hear from my clients is that they want to be emotionally detached and they think that that's going to prevent burnout. Actually, I think it's quite the opposite. Engaging with your emotions is one of the best ways to prevent burnout because it's accepting everything. I mean, you are a blend, you know, like you're on your cortex, you're a reptilian part of the brain, you know, your emotion, your sensations. And usually this can be the knock on the door you've been ignoring.

So actually, when there is an emotion about and all emotions have a purpose, if we don't listen to them, if we don't listen to the message, we're missing out on something. So it's like this is not scientific, but it's like using only 50 percent of information that you can get. So if you feel, you know, the urge, you know, to talk about people around you because you're not happy with the political situation.

That energy, you know, that drives it for something. So if you think, well, actually, I'm going to ignore it, that's not good because you have also all this energy inside, kept inside. If you feel sadness, sometimes people, you know, just want to say, well, actually, I've lost someone. I'm not going to cry at the funeral. You know, it's not good to be sad. And then that kicks back two years later. So sadness and grief is a process because usually the message is take care of yourself. What do you need, you know, to feel comforted?

If you ignore that message, you're not going to do it and you're going to waste even more resources. So every emotion has a purpose. And I think if you're really listening to accepting everything in you, you know, like your thoughts, your emotions, then you're more likely to make decisions like enlightened decisions about, OK, who am I currently? Who I want to do? What do I want to do and who do I want to be?

and then working on how to get there. And I think that's the key thing. You can't, you know, just shut down half of you. Otherwise, the decision-making process will be incomplete. I think it's the perfect way to end this conversation, talking about emotions, accepting them and...

And maybe using them or listening to what they're trying to tell us. Where they're leading us into. And then maybe even acting as they have to be acted outside of us. So I hope, now I'm talking to our listeners. I hope it was as healing for you as it was for me. This conversation really, really came at the right time. So thank you, Megan Lawrence. Where can people find you if they want to get this very pleasant experience that I just got?

and just be in touch with you. Laurence, where's the best way for people to find you? So you can find me on Good Maven website. And then also you can find me on LinkedIn, obviously. And same, I'll be swimming in the same waters of Laurence at goodmaven.com. And yeah, thank you so much, Iwana. It was a real pleasure to spend this time with you in Laurence. Thank

Thank you for inviting us. Thank you both for accepting my invitation and for our Honest UX Talks listeners. If you enjoyed this conversation and you would like us to expand on other topics in future episodes, send us your proposals. We really want to have relevant and meaningful conversations. So we're interested in what's going on in the lives of designers right now. Send us your topics and questions and we will unpack

them in future conversations and don't forget to rate us on any platform that you're listening on your support matters and i think that's that thank you for tuning in and have a nice day bye