#122 The State of Design Jobs in 2024-2025 w/Lena Kul
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Speaking about the things that are shifting in design and user research is hiring for potential. When two years ago, we were all so thirsty for people to join now because cash was coming in into the companies. It also was moving so fast.

Hiring for potential was quite normal. If you hit 65-70% of the job description, most likely you were in, even in the best companies of the world. Right now, it's really apples to apples comparison. So if I want these six competencies and you don't bring them all to the table, there is a very good chance that we're not going to be proceeding with this conversation. So I think that's a big shift that really before that you could try your chances and

and maybe you would succeed. And now those trials need to be much more targeted.

Hello designers and welcome to a new episode of Honest UX Talks. This time, this is a very special episode. I am not joined by Anfisa, but I am joined by a woman I admire a lot and that I've learned a lot from already and I will learn more from in the upcoming years. I feel like she's going places and I'm closely following her journey and I'm

I'm talking about Lena, Lena Kool. If you don't know her from LinkedIn, then you have to go and give her a follow. She has been one of the most prominent, if not the most prominent recruitment voice in the design space. She was actually the person who got me hired at Miro. So thank you, Lena. And she has always been a Q.

huge advocate of ethical hiring practices, mental health for designers. She really had messages that I always resonated with, so I'm very, very excited to have her join today. But before jumping into the topic of today, I want to take a moment to talk about Wix Studio. Wix Studio is our sponsor for Honest UX Talks, and I'm really grateful for this partnership because it's a product I really enjoy and believe in. In case you don't know what it does, it's essentially a new web platform

that's tailored for agencies and enterprises. So it's designed to empower professional designers and developers, marketers. So teams who create websites for clients or large organizations, complex projects. And so it's an advanced professional tool

And yeah, I'm very happy I get to experiment with it. And one thing I discovered I loved about it is it's built in responsiveness. It helps you build solutions that have responsiveness in a way embedded in them. Right. So I've been struggling with even understanding how to create responsive design in my junior years, even in somewhere in my mid career towards my senior years.

The responsiveness is something that we have to design for, account for, make sure is working, but it always felt like, why isn't this automated? Why isn't this supported in the tool itself? And do I have to always think about it and should be just smart design by itself? And so Wix Studio does that. It really helps you ensure this with a flawless user experience across devices without such a time consuming process, right? So we've been doing it manually for a long time, adjusting layouts, elements.

for desktop, tablets, mobiles, and it leads to inconsistencies, inefficiencies, and just the version control between all these viewports can really give you headaches, right? And so Wix Studio is really all about layers of control. You can start with intuitive features and then go into this pixel-perfect precision, right? And

For responsiveness, it helps you to scale proportionally. So you can start designing in pixels and watch elements scale by default with this instrument called Scale Proportionally. And it also offers responsive packages so you can create more complex relationships between elements and these result in more intricate behaviors. And you know, I'm all about AI these days.

and it also gives you responsive with the support of AI. So responsive AI is helpful when you have more complex sections in which you want to create unique layouts per breakpoint. You can really take the time back with a click if you use responsive AI and this will adjust the responsive behavior with the help of AI. So all these elements coming together really make your life easier.

And again, responsiveness has been something that to me always felt like a hassle and something that I have to understand and check and make sure it works and then perpetually fix. Yeah, I can't wait to have this completely removed from the work I have to do. So yeah, try out Wix Studio and tell us how it feels. And now let's get back to the episode of today with my very special guest.

And together we will unpack the state of the design market in 2024-2025, what to expect, what are some trends, what are the skills that are currently in demand, or we should think about honing as designers, and much more. So Lena, thank you for accepting our invitation. Welcome to Honest UX Talks. I'm very happy you're here. Thank you.

And I want to start by asking you, how did you get into recruitment? What's your background? What are you currently up to? So just a little bit about yourself. Absolutely. And before I get started, thank you so much, Joanna, for having me here. You know, I told you so many times you're a big inspiration for me as well. So being here and hearing this intro about myself, I feel so grateful and blessed to have such a woman in my life as well, to look like

add and take an example so yeah very happy to share everything in terms of getting into recruitment and what am I up to no straightforward answers as you would expect I guess it's funny because all my friends who are amazing

very strong recruiters that I really, you know, admire and respect in the business. No one ever told me that they wanted to become a recruiter. So it doesn't seem to be a job that you choose. It seems to be a job that chooses you and then starts working with you and whoever survives, they survive. It was really kind of

like a chance. But I think now it makes sense because I always was very into people, understanding needs. I am a big dreamer and I really identify with people who dream and want to build careers, products, better future. And so going into recruitment and starting to build teams just felt very natural to me. And there wasn't any time to onboard. I just kind of kicked off.

And, you know, came into the space with really thinking, how can I help people build better lives and achieve better quality of life with the roles that I have in hands, because I'm myself an expat. And I think that was my superpower in recruitment, really driving with this empathy and thinking, you know, what's best for them.

And now I continue my journey of recruitment. It's been seven to eight years. It's insane. Time flies. But you might know as well that except recruitment, I've tried myself a part of the design world. So I transitioned into user research a year ago and I stayed there.

researcher at Miro for one year. It's been incredible. And I think that was a very interesting experience of not only, you know, being obsessed about the design field, but really becoming a part of it and becoming a part of the conversation of how users are feeling and how we're building those products, how we build relationships with stakeholders and how sometimes those relationships are not being built, even if you try it. So really kind of, you know, raising that empathy towards designers and researchers who are

are my target audience for my recruitment practices. And so this month has been a big month for me because I took all my experience of researcher and recruiter and I launched my own thing that's called KUL. That sounds very German. KUL. It's

cool, but it's kind of my surname and I'm playing around with it. And it's a boutique recruitment and job search agency. And I'm basically working with three pillars. I believe in more holistic approach of hiring and finding the jobs. So I work with talent, I work with companies and I work with design agencies and bring them all together because I think

We all need more consistency around how we deliver experiences to candidates, to companies and to the users overall as well. I absolutely love your career journey. I remember when you transitioned into research, I just joined Miro and I was like, oh my God, but she's like the archetypal recruitment person in the industry. She's so iconic. Why would she quit a

A career that she's so good at and so really iconic. And then I realized she can bring so much value from this experience as a recruiter into the research process. So into the research space. And I thought it's just...

really beautiful way of lending your skills and experience into a new space. And now I'm once again fascinated about how everything you've learned in the research space, everything you've been practicing will kind of inform your next part of the recruitment and a job advisor journey. So it's really, really fascinating. I think these are two areas that really go well together. Moving

into the topic for today, which is what's going on in the design industry? What is the state of the design market right now? And what can we expect from 2025? You've hired designers not just at Miro, but at Spotify, Zendesk, Shopify, Booking. So you have a wealth of experience in the space and you've been watching the industry for a very long time now. So you have a deep understanding of

what moves in this industry? What's going on? What are the, let's say, unseen layers that maybe the rest of us can't really perceive? So with your very informed lens, what is going on in the design industry right now? What are the

trends and what are the, let's say, realities that you've noticed for the past year? I love that you say what's going on and what are the realities because I feel those two things have been so misinterpreted in the last year especially. It takes time for a trend to become a trend and

the market hasn't changed that much since two years. So when the shift happened, it kind of stayed this way. But people are taking time to adopt and maybe even to accept that this is the reality right now. And this is how the hiring is working. And so indeed, you know, hiring for the company like Miro,

and hiring from the best companies, as you said, like Fank and Spotify and Booking and all of those good things, I could definitely see that, you know, there are certain things in design and user research that are shifting and certain things that are not.

And so speaking about the things that are shifting is, for example, you know, hiring for potential. You know, when two years ago, we were all so thirsty for people to join now because cash was coming in into the companies, right?

We all had these insane races, insane ambitions. You know, it also was moving so fast. Hiring for potential was quite normal. You know, if you hit 65, 70% of the job description, most likely you were in, even in the best companies of the world.

Right now, I like how my friend Han recently told on the podcast that it's really apples to apples comparison. So if I want these six competencies and you don't bring them all to the table, there is a very good chance that we're not going to be proceeding with this conversation. So I think that's a big shift that really, you know, before that you could try your chances and

and maybe you would succeed. And now those trials need to be much more targeted. It really comes down to like how much you know yourself and how much you understand what the employer is looking for, rather even like having any skills.

So that's a big thing. There are definitely more expectations from roles as well. We know that the budgets are shrinking. So designers who are not T-shaped designers are definitely struggling on the market more, meaning that if you've never done any research, but you're a very strong visual designer, it's still going to be a big stretch for you to go into the product designer role.

before that it was okay you have five researchers that will teach you and it's fine and you know come in and learn on the go and now you really have to bring everything to the table I think the other very interesting thing that many researchers and designers keep on pushing back is the knowledge of

the business and the metrics and ability to speak about it simply. You know, I run my course on Maven for the job search. And of course, one of the major things when I look at CV and portfolio, I always ask, okay, Fox, like, what is the impact of the things that you've produced? You know, is there any? And when I hear, well, the company wasn't measuring it, I don't have access to

Yes, it maybe was a reality a couple of years ago, but we definitely don't see that happening anymore. So you must be able to talk about any tangible impact really that you've delivered, be it strong relationships with stakeholders that you've built, you know, conflict that you resolved, process that you've improved, or obviously the metric that you've moved. And metrics, of course, are worth talking about.

more in your CV and portfolio. So not being able to speak about business and not having that business acumen is something that pushing a lot of very talented designers in the core design skills back to the top of the funnel from the offers, you know, then it was a couple of years ago. And I see more and more people say, you know, I reached that last stage with an executive and it looked so great. And it's been now five times that I reached this last step and I'm being rejected. Well,

because that's where they want to understand how you're going to be moving that strategy and moving that product development. And that's potentially where you actually fall short. And I think the most interesting thing that I'm seeing is that everyone wants to be told a story. So your communication skills,

in product design and research, I feel it's never been as important as it is right now. We're not only talking about good English, if English is the company language, but truly building narratives and taking anyone who's sitting in front of you on that journey, either be it in your CV, either be it in your portfolio or in your interview answers. And I think that's quite important.

an important skill that still so many people undervalue and underappreciate. Really being able to pitch yourself and talk about your experiences every time as if it's first time and your life depends on it. And, you know, so many times I go into conversations with designers, entrepreneurs,

And they say, I've been looking for a job for five months. And I'm like, okay, so tell me a little bit about yourself. I will hear like, you know, what's your brain? And they're like, you know, I'm not quite good. Well, if you cannot introduce yourself, this is like the minimum of the communication skills that I as a recruiter expect.

from you. And so I think, you know, this communication skill and this storytelling skill, how you're going to pitch to executives, how you might even teach to investors, you know, your ideas, your features, pain points of the users, it all is being assessed in how you pitch yourself as a product in the interview process. And so I think communication and narrative building are the skills that we see in being the must have for any level, truly.

Wow, a lot of things to unpack here. What I'm hearing is that the bar is quite high now in the market. But if I think about it with an optimistic lens, maybe it's just part of the industry maturing. So I feel that the UX design industry was kind of not necessarily emerging, but it was in a very accelerated kind of transformation stage for the past 10 years, right? So UX design wasn't even a popular term 10 years ago, and then everybody wanted to be a UX designer.

designer. And then there was this wealth of specialized roles, right? So now you can be a UX writer, a UX researcher, a UI designer, interaction designer, a visual designer. So it felt like the industry is kind of very dynamic, experimental, trying to find its way. And maybe what we're seeing today, like the bar being higher, more competitive, the demands of the world being

much higher than a while back. A while back job descriptions for job postings in general, they were like you were saying, I love that. Hiring for potential, which means that employees and companies were more forgiving of the experience or skill set that was missing. And then they were open to bridging that gap with you.

But now with so many talented people that have experimented for the past years, they've grown, they've matured. Now you have better options to choose from in a way. And it's harsh, but it's like how capitalism works. And yeah, let's just think about this as the market, I don't know, adjusting, calibrating, or it's just becoming mature. Which leads me to two follow-up questions. Are we still seeing specialized roles? Are people specialized?

still hiring ui designers or like ux writers is this still gonna be a thing and then i'm gonna follow up with another follow-up question but let's tackle this first yeah this is very good question about the dynamics of the roles and you know in general like how companies see their growth a very short answer yes we can definitely see still content writers roles and in general ux writers are

increasingly becoming popular as roles, same as service design, as the direction of the product design, for example, something that we weren't talking about a couple of years ago. You know, service design wasn't sexy and wasn't out there.

But I do believe as well that there is no right or wrong answer. It really depends on the maturity and seniority of the company because you would need to have either a very clear need for a specialized role or an extra budget.

And clear needs are not so rare, but the special and extra budgets might be. And so, you know, if you think about your competition as a pure UI designer, then you can think about two folds kind of, you know, yes, you might be much better than the average product designer. However,

However, you also don't bring to the table 10 other skills that the product designer brings. So it would really come down to what exactly, what kind of problem an employer is trying to solve by bringing either a specialized role or a more kind of T-shaped role on the market. And this is why I'm talking about

targeting all the time because it seems that many job seekers don't understand that it's not only about being a good candidate, it's about being a relevant candidate when the bar is so high and the expectations are so clear in many cases.

Got it. It's a great explanation. And I'm hearing that some of the specialized roles, I mean, all of them will still exist if they're relevant to the company. And so I think that in the past, we could see companies just hiring, I think we need a service designer, I don't know for what, but we just need it. It seems to be the buzzword now.

but now it feels like everything is more intentional. And if it makes sense, it's still going to be there. And then the second follow-up question. So to link your answers and the insights you've shared so far with the economic situation, right? There's a downturn. The companies felt scared. They're laying off people. They're not hiring as much. But I keep reading on LinkedIn here and there positive signals that job openings are starting to pick up.

again that there's like optimistic signals that the market might never be the same but it's starting to recover and maybe it's starting to grow again what are you sensing in the market what is your vibe around this are jobs picking up do we have any reasons to be optimistic for 2025 that's a great question

I think so. I think we do have a lot of reasons to be optimistic. And I also wouldn't necessarily be upset about people saying the market will never be the same. Because now, of course, you know, it's like relationship. When you get out of relationship, you always remember about the good things and you always get nostalgic. And all the toxic and bad things that were there, you kind of leave them behind. And it's the same with this market situation.

I'm sorry, everyone was in this intense hyper growth. People were getting burned alive in the rows. The amount of work was intense. And yes, there was a lot of money. It was just too much. And no one could really keep up with that speed.

So it was never sustainable for anyone, for leadership, for capital, for people who work in those companies. And yes, you could job hop from one place to another, but there was never time to get on boarded because it

was never enough what you were doing. So I don't know where we would be now if it kept on being this way. So I don't think necessarily that, you know, 2020 or 2021 were the best years for the business. Yes, there was a lot of free money, but that's basically it. Now, yes, we definitely see more roles and roles are definitely

much more intentional. And I love that word that you use in intentional businesses. Maybe they still don't know how to hire well, but they know that they should do better. Now we will see much more experimentation. How might we bring better talent faster? Because indeed, like, you know, the best talent is still being competed for.

The candidates that Meta and Google want, it's still impossible to get them into any companies. But I also see a big, big hope, as I was talking on my LinkedIn, in this small channel of the business that's called solopreneurship. Because so many people say, you know what? It's been fun and I've learned so much.

And I don't know, you've been working for some time. I've been working for like seven years. I've seen good times. I've seen bad times. I've seen crazy times. Now bad times again. So I think good times are coming. But now so many people also understand, okay, there's so many more opportunities to make money on your own. And because companies don't know how long their runway is

are and not ready to invest so much into the full-time roles, there are so many opportunities for those fractional roles, for consultancy roles, for freelance roles, contractors, advisors, you name it, right? It all means basically the same thing. And so I think more and more people understand that A, with power of AI being more effective, simply and efficient with the growth of

content and personal brand as just this free ad machine that you can be using on social media. And then with this budget that is allocated for a certain amount of help, but not maybe for the full-time role, you can just go and do that on your own and then, you know, top it up with whatever things that make you happy. And so I see, honestly, so many people who

who leave full-time roles and it's not forever we also don't say you know never say never but for 2025 I can definitely see that many more people will try and create their own opportunities and I think as from any other crisis in the

economy, we will see more and more ideas creating that capital and becoming those new Ubers and Netflix and whatever it is going to be there in the following couple of years. So I'm very optimistic. I also think, you know, the level of understanding of how to position yourself, how to talk to people who are more senior than you,

how to sell yourself just because of the complicated recruitment processes. Like everyone got it so much better that we simply are swimming in the more skilled sea of people

designers, researchers, recruiters, whomsoever? I love this answer. It's music to my ears. I resonate with it deeply. And this is so me right now. I am actually experimenting. For the past couple of years, I've been investing in content, helping the communities, putting myself out there. So now it feels like the most natural or meaningful thing I can do is move into solopreneurship. So actually, this is the first time I'm teasing this, but I will also launch a boot

where I will offer consultancy services and fractional advisory roles. So it's exactly the path I'm about to go on. And so I'm sharing this for the first time because I really want to speak to the points you've made completely.

that the person in front of you is about to embark on that journey. And so you're so right. And like me, people who have experienced more than 10 years experience in the market, my friends, my peers, everyone is sort of flirting with these opportunities, right? We're all looking into, is there a way in which we can make more impact, possibly more freedom and just...

do more meaningful work instead of this full-time job where sometimes months go by without you pushing the needle, right? Or really showing something for your work. Now you can come in as a consultant or advisor or a fractional leader and really move the needle quickly for your plan. So that's an opportunity for more meaningful work. And yes, I agree that in a way it's reserved for the people who have some experience, like significant experience, let's say, and can understand how to drive that impact.

But I think that there is an opportunity for many roles, right? Even not basic design, because design is never basic. But I mean, being a designer, being a UI designer as a freelancer, I think companies will start looking for that, especially since there is a commitment problem, I feel, in some companies. Like, they don't want to commit to full-time roles for a long period. So maybe they will hire more freelancers, project-based, and so on. So...

Yeah, I love it. I mean, you've inspired me to feel more optimistic after the years that we've witnessed with people not in the greatest, let's say, mental health state because of the market and so on. But I feel like there's going to be a redesign of the design industry. And you've described it, you captured it very nicely. I resonate. Let's go

back to, I think, what is one of the most pressing questions in the young or fresh design community. What does all of this discussion mean for aspiring designers? So let's say you're not yet a designer. You don't even have the junior years under your belt. You've done nothing in this industry. You know you want to become a designer in 2025, but you're also seeing all the signals that aren't really necessarily encouraging for

junior or aspiring designers, is it still worth pursuing a career in UX if you're starting out today? So many people ask me that, to be honest. I have my own opinion, but I feel it's so much easier to tug the tug than walk the walk. So always take it with a pinch of salt. Something that I have been observing, however, as success stories are the people who address this shift

and almost like, you know, this transition into design in these times as the entrepreneurs building the company. So they always think, what other assets do I need to even pitch to investors as, you know, could be the potential employers? So I would say there are a couple of things that really differentiate those who succeed with those who try and don't succeed.

It could be, first of all, networking. So do you have the network? And if not, are you building it? Are you trying to make sure that people who can open the door for you are your friends, are your warm network? You know, people who will tell you hi and comment on whatever post you post. So network is really, this is like the hardest topic that

I'm talking about all the time, literally 100% of my business and revenue are being made on networking through LinkedIn. So I personally believe that it's such a pool of magic sticks that you need to be diving into. Second thing, I think really, are you ready to commit to become an extremely skilled business

junior designer. Because, you know, if you look at the hiring criteria, the more junior you go, the higher the bar for the quality of your pure design skills. So it's not really how amazing in communication and like narrative building you are, maybe not even so much about collaborating with too many stakeholders, but it's really like, you know, can you drive the quality that amazing super senior strategic designer may not be driving anymore because simply you are here for that.

And then the third thing, if I were to really consider to go from, you know, something into design right now, you need to understand that you cannot get a job without having any projects. So yes, I understand you might have not studied, you might have done only the bootcamp, but to go into your process without the portfolio is basically like you're 100% going to fail. I'm sorry for saying that, but it is true.

And I think what I meant by saying that you need to be addressing that as an entrepreneur is that you really need to be obsessed and passionate about this idea. And what it means in more kind of actionable results is that you create your pet project.

And those pet projects are not just, hey, I saw this flow on Amazon and I redesigned it. I never tested it with anyone, but I think it's so much better. And here's my project and my resume. But really, even if it's a redesign of any other brand that exists on the market, I want to see how you formulated that problem.

What were your hypotheses? What testing you did? What were the key insights of this testing? Even if those people were your friends and parents, I don't care. Are they potential users? Yes, no. Did they give you some insights? Yes, no. What did you do with those insights? One, two, three. So I really want to see how your brain and how your design skill set works in practice. And if you do a couple of those things,

pet projects that's already so much better than going with like completely naked portfolio that's one and two i see a lot of designers like very junior designers who just done boot camp and nothing else go and freelance and this is what i talk about when i say solopreneurship entrepreneurship treating yourself as an entrepreneur on your own product it's now been easier to earn money owning

yourself and your skill set as a business and so this is your great opportunity to get into projects really upscale build the network if you don't know anyone it's so much easier to get in into the freelance gigs as well than the full-time roles and that

as soon as your portfolio is ready, as soon as you are ready, as soon as you know a couple of people who can open that door, off you go. So yes, I definitely think it's worth going in design and we see more and more founders who come from design background. We see more and more products that the founding teams are designers. So designers are the first people who start creating that impact into the product-based environments. So I think in the future, we'll see more and more

opportunities there. So yes, it definitely makes sense to get in, but you need to be strategic and smart about it. I totally second everything you said. And I want to just come back to a point I particularly loved, which is this idea of being obsessed and

passionate and this is exactly the answer I give junior designers or aspiring designers when they ask me should I transition to a UX job under in this economy and under these circumstances and I'm like look I think that the answer lies obviously within you but if you're transitioning because you're gonna make money or because it's cool or because it's a job that will be good in the future or if your parents want you to be a designer those are not good reasons the reason that you need in this

economy and in these circumstances is that feeling that there's just no other way. I have to do this. I'm going to do whatever it takes because this is what my mind and in a way my intuition dictates I have to do with my life. And so if you're obsessed and passionate, you'll be fine. People still hire, I don't know if for potential, but enthusiasm and passion are different

are still valued metrics in your personality. So yeah, preparing this episode, I shared a sticker on UX Goodies and I asked people, what is the one thing you would ask a very seasoned design recruiter now? And

And most of the people came up with one question that we actually kind of teased and unpacked in the beginning of our conversation. I just want to shortly get back to it. So what people are most worried about is the transformation of skill sets. So what are hiring managers? What are companies considering to be the most sought after skills? Everybody asks me that.

And I've listened to the intro you gave. So you mentioned having a full skill set. So being able to not just do research, but also do UI or not just do UI, but also do research. This ability to show impact in your projects and have business acumen and be able to kind of speak to stakeholders as well. Storytelling narratives. So this capacity to communicate and pitch. Are there any technical skills? Like do people hire for Figma?

You know, there was that meme for a long time. You have to have over seven years experience in Figma and Figma was launched five years ago. So are technical skills still a thing or are they getting replaced by AI? What's the current skill set that designers should be able to have in 2025? Great.

Great question. And, you know, I love everything that you said, like I 100% put my word again behind it. I definitely see a lot of companies looking for strong visual skills. And it's interesting because, you know, before that visual design, it almost was like dying out.

You know, a couple of years ago, no one was talking about it. It was weird. And like back in the days when I was hiring for mirror, visual design was an extremely important skill for us. And that was exactly the default that did not allow us to hire a lot of a

UX practitioners because they were simply not skilled enough in pushing pixels, you know, and creating those outstanding experiences. So now visual design is definitely on the rise. And I think that's quite visible in many, many, many job descriptions. I also do see more

more companies kind of looking for those designers who maybe it's not like can code, but many companies trying to hire people who can work as quickly as possible. And of course, ability to, you know, speak with your engineering team and prototype, you know, and really just change all of those things by yourself and kind of, you know, be on the same level really makes a difference. So coding experience is definitely something that I'm seeing coming up

more and more. And indeed, I think still, I do believe that almost literally, if we speak about top tech, especially, you know, not necessarily like small startups, UX research is something that is still being looked after. So understanding user and synthesizing information and also testing your hypothesis is just so

so important because we've seen so many amazing businesses who decide that they know what to build and then they burn within one year because hey no that's not what you were supposed to be built in and you know why didn't you ask your user what you were what you're supposed to build

But with all of that said, you know, with speaking about all these soft skills and those hard skills that are just named, I think it's really important to understand that once again, it's an employer driven market and it's a budget driven market. I don't know

even think it comes down so much to specific skills than it comes down to those problems that you're going to be solving. And what I mean by that, that a couple of years ago when I was hiring at Miro, we would hire a senior product designer for platform developer experience. We were super duper precise what the role was about. And everyone was just posting those senior product designer and that was it, right? And they would build the pool

of people and then try to distribute them. But now everyone wants this 100% feed. And so you see on LinkedIn, on other job platforms, you can see that many more companies adding those teams that you're going to be working for.

Is it growth? Is it platform? Is it consumer? Is it B2B side? Is it security? And so it really comes down to those very technical patterns of those roles and teams that you're going to be working with. And you yourself, you know, coming from the AI team as well, we were looking specifically for a person who has worked with AI. And even though AI is quite new thing, now you can see a lot of AI roles that are looking for

those who have worked with models. And unless you have, you cannot get into that role, no matter how strong your visual skills are, communication skills, and things like that. And so I think this is a very interesting pattern that many folks do not seem to notice.

That it's not only about the skill set, but it's also about the background and the expertise in the specific business space that you bring. And this is why I see quite often when their designer comes to me, for example, and says, I'm going to be applying for roles. Those are my case studies. And they have B2B, B2C, design system, accessibility case study. And I'm like, what kind of role are you going after?

Like, what are you going to do? Well, I don't know. It's great to have a diverse portfolio, but you have to be more targeted nowadays because companies are as well. Once again, I feel like I just want to say yes to everything. I can confirm that from the position of a designer in the market. I have been recruited by large companies and again and again, their intro goes about marketing.

there's a bar for visual skills that everyone needs to meet. So my friends who got jobs at Beta and in the explorations I've had with larger companies, with recruiters, my friends and so on, my entire network talks about this level of visual expertise that needs to be there. And then also to your point, coding experience and being able to be more hands-on, like maybe

prototype your design solution in a way that has high fidelity and can really foster or generate deeper insights or more reliable insights, right? We're also seeing this emergence of the design engineering role, which is something that I'm hearing being tossed here and there. And then also, yes, research. I really loved your last point about having specific expertise. So many years ago, there was this

thing that you don't need to have domain knowledge or be niched into any industry because designers should be able to solve for any problem space. Well, that's true. But given the speed at which companies are trying to move today, like six months to onboard yourself into that domain, into that industry, that problem space might

feel like a long time for companies. So that's why obviously they're trying to recruit people who have experience and will take much less to onboard themselves in the problem space and come in with industry knowledge and domain knowledge and specific expertise, right? Like AI, for example. So I echo everything you said, and it's exactly what I am noticing as

person who's very active in the design industry community and as a designer right so we're approaching the end of this conversation i just want to have a last open question around what are some tips storytelling pitching but also like maybe a sub question to this is where can people

I love this question. And I love that towards how to get a better job, how to get a freelance job. And I love that you're talking about how to get a better job.

and how to, in general, kind of build more chances for success for yourself, I have one answer, and it's networking. And it is true that networking is very misunderstood because people think networking is sending connection requests on LinkedIn to strangers saying, hi, I want to add you to my network and then never touching that lead again. To me, networking is really about creating this mutual value

value that you can use at certain point of time and I always say give give give and then ask is like the primary framework that you should be using so what I really mean by that that if you were to start looking for a job for example your best way to do that is to go back to people that you used to work with and

ask them if there are any roles. And if there are some roles, ask to be referred. If they don't have roles, see who they connected with and ask them to introduce you to them. And this is how you expand your network. If you still don't see anyone, you know, you can go through second and third and fourth connection. So there are literally limitless opportunities for networking through your existing network.

And the biggest factor in networking with your existing network is that there is no limitation on seniority levels. So for example, when I say like, if you go to like cold networking, you should not be reaching out to founders if you're like a mid-level designer, because most likely nothing is going to happen. But if you've worked in the company, you can definitely go to your CPO and say,

hey, do you remember me? Can you please refer me? In terms of getting freelance opportunities, I mean, here we go again, literally the same answer, you know, asking for the full-time role or for a freelance opportunity is just simply really kind of trying to poke...

a little bit the situation and see how are they feeling in the role and what are the projects that, you know, the team is working on and is there or is there not the need for any external kind of resource and support? And I think many folks underappreciate that networking doesn't bring immediate results. So they say, yes, I asked, for example, whether there is a freelance role and they said, no, okay, but there might be one in like two weeks and you're going to be the first one who's going to come to mind because you've

asked. So networking for freelance opportunities is really, really powerful thing. Same as for the roles. And honestly, in my job search course recently, I think five people got back to me and said that because of networking that they've learned on the course, they signed offers. And I had like 60 students. So 10% of people signed within just one, two months offers because of networking.

If you don't want to network, I think Fiverr is a... Fiverr? Fiverr? How do we say that? You know, as always. But it's a great platform. And I do see there's even an amazing design influencer on LinkedIn. She is the highest paid...

designer on Fiverr. And she's talking about basically her success stories. I don't remember the name. I will send you that if you want to attach it somewhere. But basically, yes, it's very, very possible. And it's basically the same as for creators. You just explain what you've done, you attach some portfolios and you're being discovered. And as I said, many companies will be going for those major platforms to find help because simply there is no

money for recruitment support to hire freelancers, there is no time and they need it right away. So if you are considering freelance opportunity, once again, think who you are and what you bring to the table, what kind of company you want to work for being very, very targeted is extremely important here. So yes, networking, honestly, I think it's a big answer to many questions. And even if you network right now, and it doesn't bring much results, it's kind of

like a snowball. There needs to be something, you know, like something changes overnight and sometimes it takes many trial and error kind of, you know, attempts to build that connection and really get something out of it. But then sometimes

over one day, you can get so many responses. You can get so many opportunities. You can get so many introductions and you might not even need so many. So I think networking is like the best bet for 2025. If you want to build like a more stable and stronger career, either in house or for yourself. Incredible advice. Again,

Again, I resonate with it. And I just want to take the moment to thank you for the entire conversation. It's really one of the things that I kept thinking while you were talking is that it's really refreshing to see people who can really frame themselves

the economic downturn and just reframe it into an opportunity and then communicate that message, socialize the message that there's still a bright future for designers. And it's actually true, right? It's very true. But we really need to be more serious about the design game. Like everybody needs to do their homework much better than they used to. And I think this is a good sign for the design industry as a whole. And yeah, a wealth of insights here. I think it's

It's going to be one of our most popular episodes or it's definitely one of the most valuable and packed with knowledge and advice. So thank you, Lena. The closing question is where can people find you? I know about a Maven course, but maybe you can share more details around the platforms or how can people use you more, right? So kind of...

learn more about all your expertise and insights. Absolutely. I do have Maven courses. So the first one is literally focused on the job search. It's called Master Your Product Design and User Research Job Search. And the second one I'm kicking off next year with Kate Suma, who is the ex-head of growth product design. And we're going to be enabling designers to build their next career steps. It's product design career accelerator. And it's really for like a very senior step,

staff, lead and managers in design specifically. And it's really about reflecting your next step, whether it's in-house, freelance, solopreneur, whatsoever it can be and how to get there. So really building your pitch decks for whichever kind of, you know, promotion or application or selling yourself as a business. So we're going to be empowering designers to do that. I'm very active on LinkedIn. I definitely got into the game of socials.

small videos. I'm trying to play around with the content and really create a lot of value out of short messages that you can share there. But I think the link and the resource that I really want everyone to invite to is my Substack.

I'm about to kick it off. It's called Lena's Five. And you know what started as a joke that I have five cents that I want to share on everything. I actually transitioned into the idea that I'm going to be talking about five different topics. And of course, job search is one of them. But really, you know, personal growth, burnout, as you've mentioned, is something that's very close to me. I want to speak more about kind of

just courageous steps that folks take and building business and building your future and really reflecting kind of, you know, going forward with whatever you have. So yes, that's going to be a newsletter full of different insights, mainly focused on the job search, but also with a lot of kind of personal stories and success stories as well of the folks who are shaping me as an individual on the market. So I'm very happy to see everyone there. It's steps like Lena Kuhl and in a very easy way.

Super exciting plans. I'm going to follow the Substack as well. I already follow you on LinkedIn and I'm very excited to hear about the Maven Accelerator program. I think that's something that was so needed in the market. There are so many boot camps and courses for junior designers, but senior people like staff, principal level, they have very few opportunities for continuing to grow and expand their skill set and internal exploration.

with external facilitation. So that's really, really a great initiative and I can't wait to learn more about it. So all of these links are available in the show notes if anyone wants to check them out. Thank you, Lena, once again. It was a pleasure to speak to you. If anyone has any idea on

what we should discuss in future episodes, what are the pressing questions, what are the things that you want us to unpack in Honest US Talks. You can send over your ideas either on Instagram, on LinkedIn directly to me or on FISA, or you can submit them in Spotify. They have this feature now. And yeah, don't forget to rate us as a sign of support and follow, listen to past episodes and stay tuned for future episodes. Thanks again, Lena. See you all soon. Thank you so much.