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There is a lot of overlap between UX design and UX writing. Both of them need to deliver exceptional user experience. So the overlap would be in the areas where you focus on the user flows and the research personas, user testing and so on. But ownership wise, the UX writer will be in charge of the words, how to communicate this product in the best possible way, while UX designer will be in charge of the visual aspects.
Hello everybody and welcome on the next episode. My name is Advisa. I'm joined today by my co-host Ioana. And surprise, surprise, we also have a guest today whose name is Yuval Kashtar. So we are super thrilled. We don't usually have guests. We're only really excited to invite people we know who are the leaders of the market, especially for specialized topics.
like our topic today, which is UX writing. So this particular topic is coming from one of our listeners. I believe her name is Courtney. And our listener was really curious about the differences between UX design and UX writing, because she is just transitioning to UX design. And she's wondering if one is easier than another, and what are the ways to get to UX writing? Can you learn UX writing by doing UX design? And all those questions like
that. So we're gonna dive right into it. But before doing that, I would also like to quickly introduce our guest today. Like I said, his name is Yoel. And he's actually a super, super cool person. We know him from different, I guess, online instances.
He is founder of UX Writing Hub and also a host of the Writers in Tech podcast. So make sure to check it out if you're interested in the UX writing. So first of all, thank you so much for joining us today, Yuval. How's it going? Tell us more about yourself. Thank you. And Fisa, we know each other not only from online instances because we did grab some Mexican food together in Prague years ago.
I'm doing good building the UX writing hub for the past few years, uh, leading the UX writing community that have, I believe around 100,000 people in total. A lot of stuff is happening, the weekly news that, uh, the podcast, uh, and, and also our educational programs that, uh,
we sell so everything is fine and very happy the team is growing how long are you doing this by the way I believe you are doing it for like I don't know five six years now yeah for a while in 2017 Google brought on stage in their developer event Google I/O and they put on stage like three UX writers and that's the first time that UX writing was introduced to the world and that's where I decided that
that I already had the Facebook group a few months earlier to that. And I was talking about UX writing without figuring out that UX writing is actually even a thing. So the practice was kind of building as we go and yeah, something around 2017, 2018 and go full time for the UX writing hub in 2019. - Almost like you were a pioneer. - Yeah, you know, it was different back then. It was different back then. Now it's the community grew and now it's a whole discipline and there's many people that are bringing, there is many,
even like director level people that are doing UX writing, which is it wasn't common until a few years ago. It wasn't common to have a UX writer until that long time ago. So yeah, a lot of great stuff is happening. This is really, really curious. So let's I have a lot of questions already, but I don't want to go into too near the details just yet. Let's start from the fundamentals, I guess.
to help our listeners on board with the topic. So let's start from a very, very, I guess, obvious and fundamental question. So what is actual UX writing and how is it different from other disciplines, for example, copywriting? So that's a really good question. I will take the example from the world of designers.
So asking this question is something like asking how is it different to be a graphic designer versus a UX designer? So a graphic designer, they will still do research. They will still create visual assets and so on. But at the end of the day, there isn't connection necessarily between graphic design
and digital product design. Nobody said that graphic designers need to create a digital experience, for example. As some of the listeners might know, some maybe don't know, but I will talk about it. In order to design great digital products, you need to have the understanding of how digital product
works about user flows, what screen comes after another. And let's go back to the example of UX writing. So UX writing is this discipline of communicating your digital product in a way that it will be more intuitive to people and in a way that people would use it in a better way. As a UX designer, let's say in 2016, bringing copywriters to my team was a
a very challenging thing because people didn't know nothing about digital experiences. So they just wrote a screen and they wrote like an error message and it was like, whoopsies, something went wrong. And it like, you know, it was, it didn't have a lot of empathy towards the actual place in the interface or in the user journey where they meet with their user and doing the connection of communicating your app in the right way, in the right tone.
time in your users' mindset, that's UX writing. Copywriting is a bit different than that. Copywriting is more of like how to write a good email or how to write a landing page. And we know the state of mind of the users when they're coming to a landing page. And so we'll try to sell. Or in an email, which is a marketing email, we will also probably try to sell something. But in an experience of a digital product, we will probably try to help
users to do something, to achieve something in the interface. If it's like this huge complicated B2B dashboard and it is not that easy to operate and there is some learning curve, so we would write some copy like UX writing that will help someone to write it in a better way, right? So that's a little bit about like the differences between copywriting and UX writing. I can also talk about the differences between UX design and UX writing if that was your next question. That was literally my next question, yes. Okay, so
So there is a lot of overlap between UX design and UX writing. But at the end of the day, both of the people need to create outstanding digital experiences. The only difference is the ownership. As a UX designer, you will be in charge of the design system or
delivering the visual aspects and components, what's going to be the color palette is like and so on. But in the same time, you will have to design user flows and so on and make sure that the composition on page would be good. There is a lot of overlap between UX design and UX writing. Both of them need to deliver exceptional user experience at the end of the day.
Arguably UX designers would be in charge of the visual aspects of the design system and the composition of stuff on page, but also on the user flow, doing research and so on. So the overlap would be in the areas where you focus on the user flows and the research when doing like your surveys, personas, user testing and so on. But ownership wise, the UX designer would be in charge of
the words, how to communicate this product in the best possible way while UX designer will be in charge of the visual aspects. Ideally, you have a product team where a UX writer works closely with the UX designer. Both of them know how to work with a design tool such as Sigma, for example, which is a collaborative common design tool that probably most of the listeners are already familiar with.
The UX writer know how to work with Figma, know how to get into the Figma file and communicating the words in a better way and so on. The designer doesn't have to be in charge of the words. They could just write maybe something like a photocopy or which is a prototype copywriting, right? Or they could just write something like in this headline, we need to communicate that. And then the UX writer will just step in and make sure that it's written in a nice way. With that being said, the UX
writer is not only a person that need to fix problems that the UX designer did, right? The UX writer need also to say, "Hey, maybe we need to add one more CTA in this pop-up work now that will take us back to that screen." Or maybe we should add these words under the button that will increase the likelihood that people would actually press that button, right?
So the UX writer is not a copywriter in a way that they have also responsibility on the product design process. Some people call this discipline lately content designer, which is a common title for UX writers lately. And the UX writer is one form of a designer basically.
are also in charge of the design process. Only their ownership is the words. Just like the front-end developer in the product team is also in charge of the design, but is in charge of the code and the technology and setting up the CSS, HTML, and so on. Okay, hope that answered your question.
Absolutely. I'm going to jump in and ask another question that builds on top of everything you just shared with us in terms of how UX writers and UX designers work together. I'm curious if you could expand from your experience, from what you've seen happening in the real world, how do UX designers and UX writers collaborate? Is there an ideal process? Are there pitfalls or things that typically don't go so well, like overlapping responsibilities?
How is the process of collaboration happening, unfolding? Okay, so that's a great question. My answer is an ideal world, how it's going to work. But our world, unfortunately, is not ideal. Just like starting in UX, like 2015, 2016, something like that, people...
or coming to me and say, okay, we have this technology, we have this product, make it intuitive, make it accessible, make sure it's nice. And like, I remember like five mathematicians with this huge complicated product came to me and told me, hey, Yuval, how would you make this product intuitive and look good?
let us know and that was the job interview like in 20 minutes they wanted me to figure out like a solution and unfortunately today even companies don't necessarily know how to work with UX writers and they they give them like screens and they say hey make sure that it's communicated in a good way and then you need to do something like some kind of a content audit where you just like do quick fixes but those quick fixes are not proper solution in my opinion it's just like
give people give you like random screens and will say okay make sure that it's working it wouldn't work you need to do some research and give them a proper solution ideally the UX operator have a sit in the table in the very beginning when you have the design kickoff meeting so you have a designer you have the product manager you have the developer and you have the writer in the team and all of them together first of all if if they're doing some research so while the designer is doing their visual research if they have the time and
So then the writer needs to do some language research, right? How our competitors are communicating this message, right? You have a Jacob's law. People tend to like experiences that they are already familiar with. So maybe we need to understand how users are regular to be communicated and what words are they using. For example, we had this ski app that we were building the other day and we had a discussion if should we
use like the word ski trip or ski holiday. So we had to do some language to understand like what word should we actually use because that was kind of a consistent word over the user experience. It's really important to figure that out early. And then today we learned that in the UK they're regular to say that and in the US they're regular to say that. And so you need to do research and see, okay,
So 80% of my audience is in Europe. So maybe we will go with the UK word or maybe not. And you need to bring the discussion to the table and you need to solve it. And then you need to make decisions and then you need to write it. So ideally that's like a good process in my opinion, when you have some time for research, maybe based on your ideas and research, the designer would have some creative ideas and have some back and forth communication while designing the apps and not when
bring writer for those last minute fixes you know what i mean i need to say that the volume of the work of the ux writer is not as heavy as the volume of the ux designer so it's very common to see for every free for product teams you have one writer that kind of like can dance on like different weddings in that case you know what i mean exactly exactly like because their volume is less
intensive sometimes, not all the time. It depends on the product. You have some products that are content heavy like chatbots and conversation design and stuff that you actually need more writers than designers. But in many product teams and SaaS like software as a service, fintech apps, it would be very common to see maybe
less writers than designers. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. I love your example about deciding between a ski trip and a ski holiday. And I'm curious if in most setups, do UX writers do their own research and UX designers their own research? So are these processes separated or is it like
We make a research plan together and we work together at all times. I mean, I can imagine it depends from project to project, company to company and everything. But is it like a separate process, a separate stream of work for UX writers? Or is it embedded in the UX process? I get your question. So first of all, in an ideal world, and let's talk again about that ideal world, we have also in our team a UX research person or team. They could talk to the users and they could collect
some research ideas from the writer and the designer. And then while talking to the users, for example, they could ask relevant stuff for both team members. And that's an ideal world where you have like a research person in place, but our world is not ideal as we know and we've talked about already.
and we don't necessarily have a research person. I would say that when it comes to writing, you have a lot of design research methodologies that are slightly similar, like user interviews identifying pain points, for example, is something that the designer and the writer need to know. What's the main pain point in this specific screen? Okay, the user is frustrated because they're concerned that we're going to not be secure with their
Payment. Okay, so visually, maybe we need to add a logo that say, hey, this is secured. So that's the solution by the designer. But the writer would maybe have to write something like, don't worry, everything is secured by this and that law and so on. So identified pain points is something that UX writer and designer need to do.
But when it comes to communicating the solution, maybe sometimes you have different type of research, like when a writer will do a competitor analysis, they will focus on the words, on the words that the competitors are using, just like I talked about Jacobs before that. Or for example,
There is a term that we've coined at the UX Writing Hub named "conversation mining", which is a research methodology where you find your users and they talk to each other online, like Facebook groups, review areas in websites, Reddit. Let's talk about the ski app again. So in every Facebook group where they're organizing ski trips,
and we'll do something called conversation mining where we will analyze the user pain points and how they talk about their pain points necessarily to where we will focus specifically on the words that they choose to use and then you could basically communicate your interface in a way that your users are already used to
and that would be conversation mining. So that's the type of research that I don't recommend a designer to do. With that being said, if you are a designer and you don't talk with a UX writer, that's the easiest way to find like the way to communicate with your users. If you don't have a writer that will do it for you. - This is super insightful.
I have so many questions, honestly. I just keep writing questions I want to ask, see how much we can get here. Yeah, for sure. Okay. So another question I actually also wanted to ask you more about is the process itself. Like, Ioana, I was really curious, is it the embedded process? The answer seems to be like, it really depends on the company and the culture and how mature it is. But also, since, like,
like let's say it's a pretty new still it's a pretty new um area or a niche in the in the product development process now you've been here literally from the beginning do you see any sort of establishments any standards being developed for example in design we all know that we're like always referring to this double diamond process with four stages and there's kind of some standards it's not a regulated industry however we do have some common practices
Would you say that UX writing industry is also developing some standards, some best practices, something that every company could adopt again, depending on their, I guess, maturity level, but would you see it's kind of evolving in a way that we can already see some standards? That's a really good question. I know the double diamond methodology
is also implemented for content design UX writing disciplines. Basically, the main challenge when you have like a team of writers and you need to have some process in place is to make sure that everything is consistent. So just like the designer have like the design system and all of the methodologies around that, like atomic design and so on. So writers try to find ways also to create a consistent user experience right now. How to
make sure that if we are a team of 20 writers and we work on like completely different areas of the product how can we make sure that the users don't feel like the communication is detached from another even though it's made by different people just like with the visual language like Facebook can use one blue in one area and another type of blue in a different area and then like change phones and do that kind of stuff so also you can't call
your users in one way and then use another language or another word for it. So we need to make sure that we have some rules in place and we need to build those rules and we need to make sure that everybody, including the non-writers of our team, understand how to approach them and we need to make it accessible for everyone so they will know what is the guidelines of this company. Just like we have brand books for companies and there is like very specific things that a brand and a company can do.
Same goes with UX writing and the way that you communicate to your users. Same goes with the design system and the way that you visually present yourself to the users, right? I'm so curious what kind of format it uses. Like, I mean, in design system, obviously we have zero height. I don't know, like all those tools we are using today, right? And Figma particularly, yes, is a kind of good place to go, obviously for us.
What would be the place where you would store and work and update and have this whole cycle? - So the answer is not as complicated as one might think. It can be a Google Doc. - Okay, okay. - It can be Google Doc. It can be Figma as well, by the way. The idea, as UX writer, you need to be a very good communicator. Means that also internally, you need to communicate with your team. So if you create some kind of a content style guide,
or a content design system. So we need to make sure that people know how to find it and that it's useful for them. So if your team think that Figma is the best way to go, do that. If your team thinks that the Google Doc is better or Notion file, whatever, do that.
As long as people are using it. I know about companies that actually had like seven different rules and they printed them on the walls and so everybody would know. So that's also can be a solution as long as people know about it. With that being said, there is different tools. Usually it's like Figma plugins that
that try to solve that thing. Like you have Frontitude, which help you to store and manage your copy in your design file. You have Writer.com, they're also trying to do something similar. So I guess we'll see some kind of interesting, I would say maybe a revolution in the way that the tools that people are using. Remember like in 2017, when it wasn't clear what is the design tool that people will use.
we kind of talked to ourselves, are we going to use Sketch or is it going to be Figma or Adobe XD or Vision? And none of them had a proper solution for design systems. So you had to create like a master file and save it in a drive and share it with your team. And that was a mess. So now Figma is just brilliant and you can create like
dynamic components and dynamic prototypes, and then it's stored under the assets tab. And it's really easy to pull and everybody in the team have access to it. So I guess that like three years from now, or maybe less, we would see like a proper solution for something like you've mentioned that
to be accessible, heavily powered by AI. Something that like would say, hey, you can't use this word right now because it's not aligned with the style guide. Something like Grammarly. I'll say that too. Yeah. Something like Grammarly only for like brand's voice and
and stuff like that. I think that writer.com and Frontitude are heavily towards that direction. Shout out to them for sure. Nice, nice, nice. I've never really used them. So now I have to definitely look into it. I'm familiar with both teams. Like we work closely in front of this company that I've been discussing with the founders since day one. And we've been in touch and I always give them like opportunity to talk in our community and
Now, like, there is a bunch of money and they build a team and they're doing really good. So I'm very happy for them. And it looks like investors and companies understand that there is added
a demand for something like that. But I guess we're going a bit off topic here. Actually, I was in the Design System Conference last week and I do feel like you totally need to add this topic to the conferences like Design System because it is a part of it eventually. It's essentially the same consistent way for us designers to use the same again language, visual language, communication language style and stuff like this and keep it all consistent and reusable, right?
So it is an essential part of it because copy is still like usually 70% of the screen. So it's definitely, it's a, it's interesting how this topic was completely overlooked in 2017. Still people are still asking like, should we invest in it? And the answer is yes, you should invest in it. And yeah, hook me up with the design system conference people and I'd love to build a. Definitely now.
to build a talk for their conference, for sure. Why not? - All right, so I do have another question and that would be probably the last question in the bulk of the conversation around the process you usually are practicing. And this is maybe a stupid question, but again, because we're seeing a lot of- - Come on, there aren't stupid questions. - Of course, I know the answer. I know how it goes always. There's no stupid questions.
Still, it is sort of basic and stupid questions sometimes. So for example, in my company, we don't have like UX writing team. We have a content team, but it's still in the infancy in terms of we're mainly like designing something and then asking them to look over the flow and see if we can kind of make sure it is consistent with how we're planning. So it's kind of instilled in infancy.
Now, in terms of like a perfect process and collaboration, like Ivana also was mentioning the question about the embedded process. And I'm wondering whether there is a perfect world, a perfect way for us to, while we're designing flows for UX writers to also maybe help us with designing those flows. Could the UX writer actually come up with the UX copy flow?
And that designer will take it into consideration while mapping their like scenario and flow and whatever user journey. Is this happening at all like today? Or is it just mainly for like chatbots, like you said, you're writing this flow about the language it has to use and the answer it has to give, right? And that's it. How's it going now? - Ideally, the UX writer would also suggest user flows
because they have some angle about the user perception of the product that sometimes designers don't have. Not because the designer is not talented, but because the writer knows a bit more about, for example, what is clear, what is not clear,
and so on. For example, the writer can say, "Hey, this flow is okay, but I will definitely add one more screen in the middle as some kind of a friction that will explain to the user exactly what is going to happen." For example, okay, let's take the most common friction. When you try to delete something that is relatively important, like a project in Asana or like a Slack channel,
And the amount of friction is slightly larger than in a regular pop-up. It's like opt-in one, two, three times if you want to actually delete it or rewrite the word delete if you want it to be deleted. Are you familiar with this scenario? - Yeah, I've heard. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, of course. Or cancel or whatever, yeah. - Exactly. And in that specific screen, sometimes when you do the opt-ins for like different checkbox, they say, "I know that I'm not going to have access to this data anymore, check."
I know that everybody that is connected to this project is not going to have access to it anymore. Check. And it kind of stops you and tells you, hey, you need to actually read this right now and actively do something if you really want to delete it. And as a UX writer, I would like to think that, okay, I'm familiar with users. Sometimes they scan. They don't necessarily want it.
Every single word I use, but in this specific scenario, I really want them to move from, if we talk about the book, Fast Brain, Slow Brain by Daniel Kahneman, right? So you have the autopilot brain and you have brain that stops and thinks. So we need to bring them out of the autopilot and make sure that they know that they're going to...
actively they need to do stuff so as you will define flow because of the empathy that I have with the user because it understands the journey I will offer my own type of solution and probably it would be a good solution so basically in the perfect world I guess co-creation session when you both work or iterate or work together on this perfect flow but it can start even with like
comment on a Figma file that say, hey, I feel like we need to add here an extra fiction. What do you think? And they will say, hey, you're right. And then I will actually build that screen. Right. And then it will be like, hey, add some checkbooks. So the designer will take the design system with some checkbooks, will create some very fast draft. And then the writer can come join, write the copy and
and so on. I would like to move the conversation into the career space if you're both okay with it. So let's talk about how to pursue a career as a UX writer. And I have two questions here. The first one would be, what's an ideal background for a UX writer, if there is any? So great question. It's like in UX when you, you know, you can line up five different designers in a row and nobody would have the same background. So with UX writer, you could
say something slightly similar i see many people coming from journalism and traditional writing background the copywriting content marketing so on that's the quickest win because they have experience working as writers so that's good background with that being said a good background can be also psychology and to be honest this is funny but a lot of our students at the ux writing hub like
like their background is kindergarten or teachers in in schools for children basically that's so interesting i i think that simplifying and communicate complicated ideas is something that's kindergarten teachers must have so it's interesting but you had like
a bunch of kindergarten teachers taking the course. So that's interesting. So if you have a toddler or a small kid, would you also have an advantage in transitioning to UX writing? Maybe. I don't know. I don't have experience in that. I will say that we created an app for toddlers in the past.
We helped a team, it's a European team named Blah Blah. It's an app that helps children to speak and to talk. I don't know why I talked about it right now. I just found it funny that you get the chance to design apps for toddlers. Yeah, it's great that you talked about it because I want to use it. Right now with my daughter, we're learning new words. So it's like the first step, learning how to talk. So whatever help we might find, I'm going to text you after this conversation to send me the app.
So my follow up question would be, let's say you're a UX designer right now, but you feel drawn towards UX writing or you feel like that would be a more rewarding career to pursue. How can you transition from UX design into UX writing? What does it take? What's the ideal process if you want? Probably that's the easiest transition ever. You're already in the product team. Nobody's
Probably the reason that you want to do that transition is because you feel like nobody's paying attention to the words or
Or you have someone in your team that is paying attention and you like their work better than yours. So being a UX designer that wants to be a UX writer, it's amazing because you become some kind of a UX unicorn where you have the ability to design the interface and you know already to work with design tools. In the same time, you have a very big passion for words and communication. So you're probably going to do a really good job at it.
So that's what I want to say. Yeah. So if you have a foot in the door in a company as a UX designer and you want to do transitions, so I would say start writing the words and it would be the easiest transition ever. And if the company is not ready for something like that, so otherwise I would recommend also to be in charge of the word either way. And then you could present it in your portfolio and the next company could hire you as a UX writer, for example. Oh, the portfolio, by the way, how does it look for the UX writers?
I'd say write a notion document. It's easy. You don't have to build a fancy website. You can do it even with Google Slides, in my opinion. Communicate your solutions, add the context. It's very similar to your design. Say, what was your role in your team? What was the problem you're trying to solve? How did you solve it? If you can add, how did your work impact the
product, for example, after implementing this onboarding, the churn rate drops by 20%. So if you have that data added, of course, and then people would know that your words have impact and return of investment. It seems like very similar. Yeah.
Also, a lot of people like to talk lately about product-led growth. So if you have, for example, stuff that helps product-led growth, like words that you use, or like if you wrote like a pricing page, or if you led to a flow that led to a pricing page, at the end of the day, companies want to know that they're going to invest X amount of money and they're going to return the investment. So if you'll show that you have an
an impact on a business, that might help heavily. We just published our annual salaries survey the other day for writers. First of all, it's growing and in few companies you can earn even six figures income USD. So that's amazing. Companies are ready to pay a lot of money for a person that will do well. So make sure that in your portfolio, it's clear that you can move the needle for that business. It's not an easy task.
And I guess the other question that would be a part of what Joanna was asking, like, apparently I know the answer, but what would be the educational programs that you would suggest our listeners to take part or look into if they would want to learn UX writing? So the first thing that I'd say is that I don't recommend any educational program. I recommend you to...
practice by doing and I would recommend you to talk to people, to experiment, to find mentors, to get real world experience. Your favorite app is Spotify. So go to Spotify, check if they have any like UX problem that is not communicated well.
you didn't like their new shuffle button, you think you need to write it in a different way, like naming the feature, create a better solution for it, document it, edit your portfolio, and so on. With that being said, we have the Uctonian Academy, which is an online education platform that is ours. I created it with my team.
which help you to find a mentor and real experience with the internship which is part of the program and many many writing assignments and working closely with the mentor i know that Johanna also is into mentorship lately so definitely that type of programs in my opinion can accelerate your growth and take you faster in any career in my
And if you find mentor and get real world experience in any career, I think it will take you faster where you want to go. And I don't necessarily think that a general course will take you there or a course will take you there. The only person who will take you there would be you.
and your motivation and you need also to be obsessed about it. You need to really, really want it. And then the mentors could take you there basically. I absolutely love your points. I stand by them so deeply with the mentor work I've been doing in the UX bootcamp. That's exactly what I've learned that if there's no drive, if you're not obsessed and passionate about it, then no mentor can do wonders.
in the absence of your own determination. So that's a key point. And I've learned that people that have that determination can learn on their own as well. So I loved how you started. I haven't took a course to get into UX. I was just very, very, a bit ignorant even, but like reaching out to people, doing stupid things, doing bad work at first. I wasn't good. I was bad at it.
But I was being kind to myself and it was okay being not that great. And I wasn't cocky and I was ready to learn, was humble about it. And people gave me the opportunities when I asked for them, basically. That's pretty inspirational. So I would say UX writers, start writing. Start writing. Yeah, if you like it, be obsessed about it. There's so much free content out there. Like 95% of the content we produce is free and we produce it on a weekly basis. Go to blog.com.
go to our newsletter we have a free course go to our website you expanding up.com we have a free course check it out it's one of the best out there i would also recommend the facebook group you have it's pretty active and every time there's so many great advices and questions i love it i spend so much time on it
yeah so if you have a question about this topic we have 20 000 people that are there and hopefully will help you to answer your question i answer them here and there i answer and all of the content that we produce is out there in that facebook group as well so that's microcopy new xp on facebook and yeah just be obsessed about it read every newsletter read every blog even if it's not the content that
I personally produce just go to Google, check your writing, check on design, listen to what experts have to say about that. In podcast, for example, yeah, I'm a bit obsessive about it. And as I said, that's also the type of students that I want to have them. They don't want the obsession. I don't want to have people that are not sure about it or I just want to commit to results and to effectiveness and to help people to find a job at the end of the day. And if I don't have people like that to work with, so I prefer not to work with them.
I understand what you're saying perfectly. I see it in my students. Now, we're a bit on a side street right now, but very quickly, I see it in my students when they join Mento, if they're very determined, they can finish in five months and then
land a job in one month so it's incredibly fast to switch careers and then other people can take even not the case for mental yet years but but i've seen it in springboard design lab people who finish in two three years the boot camp so it's it's insane if you think about it that they would commit to a journey that lasts like so long because they're not actually willing to put in the effort but that that's another conversation for another time about learning ux and ux writing and everything
need to remember one thing for this talk and you want to get into this field just have a session about it pick up any rock see what's underneath like everything check internet upside down see what's out there reach out to people that are actually doing it and you'll do good i love the metaphors and the choice of words it goes to show that you're a ux writer
So you're the man with the words. It's absolutely clear now. So yeah, lift every rock. I love that. I'm going to steal it. And also obsession is probably the key word of obsession.
fast learning and a successful transition. So I guess that's it for our conversation today. I want to take a moment to thank you, Bal. Once again, you've really gave us so many insights. I learned a lot from our conversation. I admit that I wasn't so well informed when it came to UX writing. So thank you so much for answering my questions. And I'm sure that the audience feels the same way. Our listeners. Thank you so much.
To everyone who listened, you're going to find Yuval's links and where you can find them in the show notes. And make sure to join all his channels because it's different kind of value, but super valuable all everywhere. And I guess that's it. And in terms of Honest UX Talks, you know already the drill. Follow us on Instagram, Honest UX Talks. And if you want to leave a review on your platform of choice or send a question, submit a topic for a future episode, that would be amazing. Thank you.
so thank you thank you everybody thank you thank you have a great day bye everyone bye