#54 Retaining joy with side projects w/Design Life
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Hello everybody and welcome on the next Honest UX Talks episode. In this episode, we're actually doing an experiment. We're exchanging hosts with one of my favorite design shows called Design Life. For those of you who doesn't know, Design Life is a podcast about design and side projects for motivated creators run by Charlie and Femke. I believe they're

the girls are doing this show for at least five or six years. I personally is following them for at least four years. I find it inspiring that the girls are keeping it up consistently and always bringing so much value. And honestly, you can see how much their career was evolving and changing in the last five, six years. So I find it super cool. And that is why we decided to do this little experiment.

and actually exchange hosts and see how we can share different perspectives on running side projects for a while. And of course, the most important part of it, how do we retain joy of doing it? So let's see what they've got to share. And of course, make sure to follow Design Life on any podcast platform of your choice.

Hello everyone, I'm Charlie. And I'm Femke. We are the hosts of the Design Life podcast and we weren't really sure how to start this bit, to be honest, because this is not our normal show, right? We're guests over here on the Honest UX Talks podcast and we're excited to share our thoughts today on...

The idea of retaining joy in your projects when you're doing so many of them for so long, it is something that anyone with side projects on the side of a full-time job struggles with. And this is the kind of thing that we talk about a lot, Femke and I, over on our own show, Design Life. So hopefully we'll see some of you over there. But yeah, you're going to get to hear us on this feed for the next wee while.

Yes. Charlie, should we introduce ourselves a little bit? Assuming there's folks listening to this who might not have heard of you and I. Good point. I was like, we just did. I said my name and then I was like, oh yeah, no, people might want to know more than that. Yeah. So I'll go first. So I'm a senior product designer working at a company called Well Simple based in Canada. And on the side, I have this lovely podcast with Charlie, Design Life, which we've been doing forever.

for six or so years, I think, a long time. So there's a long feed of like close to 300 episodes now all about design inside projects if you want to listen to that. But

But I also have a YouTube channel where I teach product design and talk about product strategy, user research, UX design, kind of helping designers get into their design career, which is so, so, so much fun. And the basis of a lot of what we talk about, I feel, on our show. And along with that, I also run like an email newsletter. I have a community and I run a job board as well. So yeah, lots of side projects going on on the side of the full-time job.

How about you, Charlie? Yeah, same for me. A lot of like long list of side projects. My biggest one is my YouTube channel that I've been doing for nearly nine years. It's going to be nine years in October. Oh my gosh, wow. Making videos about design. I like to share like my life as a designer. I'm the creative director at ConvertKit. We're a remote tech company and I share the projects that I work on for my job and the challenges that I'm facing through vlogs and things like that.

I have the podcast with Fem, like she already mentioned. I have another podcast called Inside Marketing Design, where I speak to other marketing designers in the tech industry.

I am currently writing a book about marketing design. Are you noticing a trend here? I have a marketing design job board as well. So between us, we've got like the spectrum of design and tech covered, I think, right, Fem? You've got the product design side? I think we pretty much do. Yep. I've got the marketing design side. We're good. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, okay, you just mentioned that you've been doing YouTube for nearly nine years. So let's start there. Doing a side project for...

for that amount of time. How do you keep that a fun side project and something that's enjoyable for you and doesn't become or feel like work or something that you're not looking forward to? Because nine years is a long time. It is a long time and there's definitely been times within those nine years where it has felt like work and it hasn't felt enjoyable.

And anytime I've hit that feeling is when I know I need to make a change. So like if you watch my videos now compared to my videos when I started...

I don't know if you can watch any from when I started to be honest, I've made them a lot of them private, but it's very different. The kinds of things that I'm talking about on my channel, the way I'm making my videos has changed a lot in that time. And I honestly think that's key to maintaining your own personal interest in a side hustle for so long is to change it as you change and as your interests change and you can make it follow whatever you're interested in at the time. Because if you try to keep it the same thing,

then it is going to feel more like work and it'll be harder to push through those moments of creative block and just lack of enjoyment in it. But you've been doing your channel now for, well, yeah, how long have you been doing your YouTube channel? I think it's three years now or so, a little over three. Okay. And how are you feeling about it?

That's still a long time to have committed to something, right? To be doing it for three years on the side. Yeah, I feel like it's longer than the average, I guess I would say. I think you touched on a really important point, which is like letting the side projects grow with you. And I mean, I've definitely seen you do that with your YouTube channel. I feel like our podcast as well, Design Life, is very much a good reflection of that, where it's always been about...

just following us on our journey and evolving as we're growing and learning. And so, yeah, my YouTube channel, I'm about three years in and I do feel like it's growing with me. A lot of my early content was very junior designer focused because that's where I was in my career at the time. And now that I've been moving more into a senior role and more focused on things like product strategy throughout my day job,

I'm starting to see my YouTube channel also reflect that because that's the stage that I'm at and that's where I'm learning and that's where I'm growing. So,

I do think that that is a important sort of fundamental to have with a side project in order to have that joy continue and continue growing and doing it consistently for a long time is making sure it stays fun and engaging and exciting for you. And often the way that's done is through letting it grow as you grow. Yeah, because that's the thing, right? Side projects are a choice that we are making. No one is making us do them.

And even when we might feel like we have an audience that we feel accountable towards, like, you know, we want to release a podcast episode every week. I want to release a YouTube video every week. But at the end of the day, it's kind of like our choice also if we need a break from that and if we... Yeah. Or if we want to stop it completely, you know? So we shouldn't be forcing ourselves to do something that isn't enjoyable. And...

Have you ever hit a moment in a side project fam where you were like, this isn't fun anymore? And what did you do about it when you realized that? Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've definitely had those moments where, yeah, you're just not enjoying it as much. Or like you were saying earlier, it kind of just feels like work. Years ago, I had the idea of creating a magazine. And I've talked about this, I think, early on in the Design Life episodes. And

And yeah, at some point I just, yeah, I wasn't enjoying it as much, like didn't feel like my heart was really in it. And I noticed I wasn't looking forward to working on it. And so eventually I kind of just took that as a sign to let it go and realize that, well, maybe this isn't something that I should be focusing on or isn't something that is worth my time, effort and energy.

In a way, that's kind of the beauty of side projects, though, is because they are a choice. You can kind of try different things and you don't need to fully commit. So I do think it's a it's a safe space to explore different ideas. But I think we also need to get comfortable with letting things go. And I think for me, that was really hard to admit. OK, maybe I should let this go because I feel like I'm often really I always want to see things through and I don't like to be a quitter.

So that took a little bit for me to kind of come around and accept that, hey, maybe I'm not going to do this thing and that's fine. I'll move on to something else. But it is always hard to kind of let those things go. And there is this moment where you have to decide when, like you did, you noticed I'm not enjoying working on this thing. Yeah. And there's two ways it can go, right? Either that's a sign that maybe this isn't a thing you want to be spending your time on. Maybe your time would be better spent on something else that you would enjoy or that you would be excited about.

or maybe it's about changing the approach you're taking, or maybe it just needs a break for a moment. Because something you mentioned talking about your magazine on the podcast, something I've been talking about for ages is my book, right? Like years, I've been talking about writing this book. And there was many times over the past few years where I either stopped working on it for a while or just didn't enjoy it. But I

I never stopped saying that it was something I was working on, right? Because I know in my heart that I want to do it and that I want to make it happen. And so I feel more motivated to push through the hard moments because I'm like, no, I want to reach this end product though. And so...

I'm still enjoying the overall journey if maybe I'm not enjoying every single step along the way, which is that's the important thing to have, I think, is that you are going to enjoy the journey overall and that it overall is a positive thing for you. And so you can push through those moments where the steps aren't as great along the way.

Yeah. I feel like a lot of folks these days who want to get into side projects often are very fixated on their end goal of like, I want to have a successful YouTube channel or like, I want to like have a TikTok or whatever. And let me

let me tell you, I mean, I don't have experience on TikTok, but at least from the YouTube side, on the YouTube side, at least like there's a lot of work. There's a whole journey that goes behind getting to that point. And I do think that you have to enjoy parts of that process, not the whole thing, you know, like with your book, of course, there's ups and downs and things that are a struggle and you have to kind of persevere and have resilience to push through. But that journey is part of that experience. And I think that,

loving that part of the process is also important and will help make the rest easier.

Because side projects are like things we do for fun, of course. But when you're ambitious and you set big goals behind them, I just believe there's always going to be parts of it that don't feel as fun. Like, do you enjoy every single moment of making a YouTube video, Fem? No. Yeah. No, definitely not. But I love that feeling of being able to upload one, of connecting with the audience there and like building this body of work, you know, for me almost forever.

nine years in the making of educational design content. I love that. And so that keeps me going through the less enjoyable moments. The bigger picture, right? Yeah, it's the bigger picture. Yeah, exactly. I think something else for me that has really contributed to this directly over time is...

Having accountability and not feeling like I'm doing it alone, like having a group of people who are also creators that I can talk to, you know, people you can bounce ideas off like our podcast. Sometimes I feel is like therapy for me when it comes to my side projects.

But, you know, feeling like you're not alone and that there are other people with you at different points of your journey. That's also made it really fun for me, like being able to collaborate with other people too, like even what we're doing right now, collaborating with Honest UX Talks. Like that does keep it fun as well and makes things exciting. So like you don't have to do everything on your own all the time. There is this opportunity for community around these side projects too. Yeah, exactly. What about...

the feeling of doing these on the side, because I think

whether you're running a YouTube channel as your full-time job or on the side, there's always gonna be those moments of it feeling like work, but sometimes it can feel extra hard when you also do have the work work that like a company is paying you for and you're trying to fit in your side hustle, you know, on the side of that. How has that impacted things for you, Fem? - Yeah, I mean, sometimes that is hard. Like maybe I'm having a really, really bad day at work and then I need to show up for a live stream and be on and be like engaging

and positive and good vibes and energy. I won't lie. There's definitely moments like that that can be really challenging or maybe it's not even that. Maybe it's just I've used up all my energy in my day job and I'm spent at the end of the day or at the end of the week and I just don't have the mental energy to put into side projects. That is definitely a struggle and a challenge. And

I think for me, I've just tried to learn what my boundaries are and how to balance all of that. And also just being kind to myself and letting myself take the break if I need it or have a rest if I need it. The world's not going to end if I skip one upload. So just also taking care of myself and being really kind to myself and prioritizing the most important things at the right time. Yeah. Ooh.

Oh, well, actually, speaking of that, though, prioritizing the most important thing. Is there ever a time, though, when you're like, I know this is the thing that would move my side business forward the most, but I really want to work on this over here instead? Oh, yeah. Shiny object syndrome. Yeah, totally. I'm like, oh. And what do you do when that hits? Let myself like in that other thing because I'm so excited about it. I do the same thing. I follow the shiny object. Yeah.

Exactly. I'm like, well, I have this energy and this excitement. Like let's, who knows what that could turn into? I feel like I need to entertain it to respect that I have that energy for something else. So I follow the shiny object. Sometimes that works out. Sometimes it doesn't work out. I always want to give things a chance and kind of see where they go. I feel like I've found myself doing this a little bit less, the more seriously I've been taking my side projects. And I kind

I don't like that. Interesting. And I think I do that because I'm like, well, this is the thing that's going to like lead to the income, you know, and like I'm thinking from a business mindset around it. Whereas like the whole point really of keeping things as a side project versus trying to make them a full time job is that you don't have to have that pressure.

And so I think that I need to follow whims even more. In fact, that's something that I'm going to be doing on my sabbatical that's coming up soon. I get to take a four-week break.

paid break from work because I've been at ConvertKit for five years and I plan on using that time for like following creative whims where I'm just going to be like what do I feel like doing today and whatever that is I'm going to do it it's going to be fun yeah I love that you are intentionally able to like create that space for you which I think is rare especially with side projects I feel like it's always cramming into the like hour if we're lucky a day that we have so I

Being able to have all that space to really think about it is super exciting. What about for you? And I know you've talked about your book a little bit and like persevering through that. Is there anything that you have had to kind of sunset or say goodbye to? Or maybe you lost the, you know, joy out of something and thought, OK, well, maybe now it's time to end that and move on to something else. Any examples of that for you?

Yeah, lots actually. The first like biggest one was closing down my t-shirt company. That was something that I ran for like a decade. It was my first ever side project. I started in university and I really only shut it down. Well, I don't know how many years ago it would have been now, but a few years ago, like it's recent-ish. We talked about it on our podcast when I made the decision. So it's like recent enough that we have a podcast about it.

That was one that I shut down because I noticed that the joy had definitely changed, right? When I used to get an order for a t-shirt, because it was this like online brand that I ran and, you know, printed the t-shirts myself as well, screen printed them myself. When I first got orders, it would be so exciting. I'd be like, oh my God, where in the world is this one going to? Like, how did this person in the Philippines find me? That's amazing. And it sort of turned into me getting an order and being like,

no, now I've got to print a t-shirt. Gotta get out the screen printing gear. Now I gotta go to the post office. And it just like, wasn't fun anymore. And so that was a sign for me that I needed to stop it and that it maybe wasn't something to just push through because I wasn't excited about the end product anymore. Another one.

that comes to mind is actually our community that we ran for a while for Design Life. We started a community membership thing for our listeners to join, pay like a monthly fee and, you know, we would run live streams and offer resources and things like that. And for me, that just became overwhelming and like,

oh my god this is stressful to make sure that I'm providing value every single month every single week to these people it just like yeah there wasn't the joy in it that I was hoping for and thinking like oh we can get all our listeners in one place and that part of it was cool but yeah the other side like the pressure just made it not fun

And I think the same thing happened for me with my Patreon, which was again, like a monthly fee people are paying to belong to my Patreon. And I just felt so much pressure to deliver to them. And I felt like I was never delivering enough. So what I learned is that community sort of stuff is not for me. Like anything where someone is paying for like a monthly commitment right now. And I like, maybe this will change in the future. I want to say that just in case I do change my mind. Yeah. Start a community or something, but yeah.

It's just not how I want to operate. It doesn't give me the freedom to follow whims as much as I perhaps might like. Interesting. It's just too much pressure on the side of running a team where I've got to think about all the people on my team that I lead at ConvertKit. I'm like, I can't also think about all these people paying a monthly membership as well. That's just too much to be held accountable to. Yeah. How do you know it's time to really sunset versus...

oh, maybe I'll mix it up and try a different approach or like, you know, for your Patreon, like, did you ever think, oh, maybe I'll change the benefits they get to sort of make it a bit easier? Like, did you go through that kind of process or was it very clear from the beginning? Like, no, the only way is to sunset. Yeah.

No, I definitely always want to, like you said at the start, like how you don't want to quit things. I'm the same. I don't want to just give up on something, especially if I enjoyed it at one stage. And at one stage I was excited about it. I don't ever want to make a decision just in like one moment because I feel like that's not giving enough credit to my past self who came up with this idea in the first place and like put in all the work to create it.

So I like to give things a good go for everything that I've ever sunset. I have first tried different ways of doing them and like thought about, okay, well, is there a way that I can do this differently? And like maybe run that for a while. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I did that with the Patreon change the benefits. So it was more like treated as a monthly donation type thing, but still it didn't feel right to me. And I didn't like, I still felt the pressure, even though no one was putting it on me. None of my patrons were like, Hey,

where's some extra stuff, please? Yeah, right. That never happened, but I just still felt it. So that's how I knew if I've tried to adapt things to like solve these issues and it's still feeling wrong and it's still not feeling joyful, then it's time to sunset. Yeah, I think that's important. Like,

Listening to yourself as well, right? Like either I feel like it can come from your audience or from yourself. And I think both are sort of equally important. So yeah, good to listen to yourself as well. I'm also like, as I'm thinking now about my like, you know, decade essentially of being a creator, um,

I feel like I've changed so much the things on my plate during that time. There's always something new that I'm working towards or something I've changed. And that for me keeps things really interesting and fun as well. I don't ever want to get into like a rut with my side projects because then that's when they just become like routine and boring and they feel more like an obligation than something I'm choosing to do.

So yeah, that's another way that I think I've been able to stay interested in side projects for so long is because I am constantly like acting on new ideas. And that's why the book is happening because that was the new idea that I had a few years ago. And I'm now working on this idea of a longer term project, which has been the hardest part of it is sustaining the interest over time, you know? Yes, yes, it does take a long time. Yeah, I think you're right. And also with side projects, like,

you're never really done. There's always something else you could do or the goal, you know, moves, especially with things like if you're growing an audience on any sort of platform, you know, it's exciting to hit these milestones, like a hundred people subscribed, a thousand people subscribed. Like it's exciting that it can grow with you. And I find that really enjoyable as well in terms of these like ongoing side projects versus like

oh, make a product and kind of done. It's fun when you have these side projects that are ongoing and that can grow with you. There is always something new to learn, something new to strive for. And that to me keeps it really exciting as well. That I think is a, like not a criteria, but just a common trait maybe in people who have side hustles is that we are constantly moving the goalposts for ourselves, right? Oh yeah. Like you said.

I think now how I sometimes think about my YouTube channel and I'm like, oh, it's not growing enough. And then I think about the me like eight or nine years ago who was like, would have, I'm not going to say would have killed because it's not that dramatic, but like would have loved to have the number of subscribers that I have now. Like couldn't have even dreamed of it in a million years. And then I'm sitting here being like, oh, only a thousand new people joined my channel last month. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. It's like, it's a blessing and a curse, I feel, because your expectations are always getting bigger and bigger and bigger. But it's also like, more and more and more rewarding. Yeah, when you reach them. Exactly, exactly. So yeah, I don't know that that keeps it fun for me is like, there's always more people to connect with, there's always more space to grow and, and always opportunity to take it to the next level if you want.

Something you mentioned about ongoing side projects versus ones you complete. I actually think that I need more that I complete, especially right now as I'm working on this book project, which is so long and it's gonna take me a while to complete.

I feel like I need more of the quicker dopamine hits, but not with the added weight of having to do things over and over again. Making my font was a really fun project that, again, took me a while. But now it's out there. And I think I'm wrapping up my last year of...

to do an income report right now and that I earned like 740 pounds. I don't know what that is in US dollars off the top of my head, but just from sales of my font that I have earned

Like that was completed the year before, right? So that's just... Yeah, like minimal promotion. Minimal promotion. It's just passive income coming in. And that feels really good to know that, cool, I made a thing and it is now driving income without me working on it. Yeah. I would love to do more like that. Or that's why I kind of like producing my other podcast, Inside Marketing Design, in seasons as well. Because it's like, this is a season. Mm-hmm.

And then I can put it down and not think about it until I want to do another season. And it can just sit there. Like I had someone email me the other day saying, hey, I listened to your inside marking design show. And I was like, oh yeah, that show. I should probably do another season sometime. I have a thing there. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. On the topic of income, how does that contribute, I guess, to your joy of side projects? Ooh. Yeah, I feel like that's a... Ooh, good question. That's a spicy one. I think it honestly does contribute a lot for me. Mostly because...

I'm very lucky that my job more than covers my bills. So anything on the side, like I said, is added extra. So it's not really like income that there's a pressure attached to. And I honestly find the process of making money fun. Like I enjoy the entrepreneurial side of side projects thinking like, ooh, and how could I price this? And like, what if I offered two packages and then like this one included this?

and let's see what people go for most. I don't know. I just find that whole side of it really fun. And so it definitely is an element of joy for me. There's lots of things that I enjoy that really don't make a lot of money. Like even the font, honestly, the amount of hours I spend in it, I still don't know if I've earned a really good hourly rate for it. And I'm sure the same is gonna be true of my book. When I finally launched that, I don't think it's gonna like pay me a good hourly rate for the time that I've been spending writing on it, at least for a while.

But it is fun to try different ways of earning income and start up different income streams. What about for you? Yeah, I tend to agree. I think it is fun and I often approach it as like an experiment. Like, oh, what if I try this or try that? Like...

A few months ago, I did a live stream. Usually my live streams are for community members only, but I decided to add a price tag. Like you could buy a ticket if you're not in the community. And I just did that as an experiment. Like would people buy it? You know, is this a value to people that aren't in the community? At what price point would they buy it at?

So it is fun, I guess, to experiment with those different things. And also, I'm not going to lie, really rewarding as well, because I mean, you and I both know we put in a lot of effort, a lot of time into these things. So it is nice to get a little bit of extra income from it, as you mentioned, just a nice little bonus on top of the full-time job salary. But for me, I guess it's definitely not a...

requirement like I don't feel like every side project I need to do should have an element of income to it I like to also have things that are you know maybe for my own own fun or maybe I'm trying something new or wanting to experiment and it's definitely not something I did in the first four five years of my side project career quote unquote I definitely built up to this point where I

even for me to feel confident and brave enough to put a price tag on something like that took me years to get to that point. So I think it's just an added bonus, not a prerequisite, but agree, it is a lot of fun to try and experiment different things and learn along the way as well. Also, it's kind of like your reward for sticking with something for so long, right? Like you said, for the first few years of making side projects, you didn't

earn a lot from it. You didn't think about charging. But when that became something that you wanted to do, you'd built up your reputation and you'd like earned the right to charge those prices that you wanted to charge. And it's like, this is why you stay consistent and this is why you keep doing side projects because it gives you options. It gives you the reputation and like the skill set to run the experiments that you want to do, whether that's something income related or something else. It's like...

you've built this. And that's like my favorite thing about side hustles and why I think they'll always bring me joy is because it's something that I dreamed up and that I made and brought to life. And there's just something so cool about that. Yeah. Especially in compliments with the day job, having something that you created, you have control over 100% ownership. It's your thing. You can do with it what you want. It's really nice to have as a compliment to the day job for sure.

Yep. And that's why when I hear from people who feel like they have to have a side hustle or like, oh, I don't have a side project, I'm feeling left behind. I'm like, you're not in the right mindset to have a side hustle. If that's why you're thinking you need one, you're not going to be able to stick with it. You're just going to be giving yourself a second job instead. And that just sounds like too much effort. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it needs to be something that you're excited about and that you have passion for. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, Fem, where could Honest UX Talks listeners go to find more episodes of our show? Yeah. If you enjoyed this sample, I guess, of Design Life, then you can listen to the rest of our show over at designlife.fm. You can find all of our past episodes there. We're also on Twitter at designlifefm. If you want to follow us there, we'd love to see you there. And sometimes we take listener questions on the show as well. So if you have questions

A question related to side projects, design, your career. You can always tweet us and yeah, you might hear an episode about it on our show. Yeah, we love responding to listener questions. So please do. And I'm sure that we'll get the Honest UX Talks ladies to link our own individual social media in the show notes as well. But thanks for having us. It was nice to meet you all. Yes. Yes. Thank you so much. This was so fun. Have a lovely day and enjoy the rest of the podcast. Bye. Bye.

Bye.