#80 Red flags in UX job postings (+big news drop)
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We all have different red flags. I don't want to generalize and say that if this is not your ex-mature company, it's a red flag. Because at the end of the day, it's your choice. It's the list of what you choose to accept. There are no perfect companies. There are things that are good for you, and then there are things that are not acceptable for you. And so you have to choose what is your own list of things you would be able to tolerate. And the rest is really like your emotional reaction to how it feels, how those people treat you.

Hello UX designers and welcome to a new episode of Honest UX Talks. As always, I'm joined by Anfisa and today we will be unpacking a topic that, like per the usual, probably concerns us all. We're going to be discussing how to spot and understand what are red flags in job postings for UX designers. What are some good signs when searching for jobs and analyzing, evaluating the options of

Of course, we'll share a lot of our own experiences navigating job opportunities and trying to understand what's behind the job description on LinkedIn. So with this intro, I'm gonna do our regular, how was your past week, Anfi?

Hello everybody! Welcome to the next episode. Oh my god, I don't even know where to start from when it comes to unpacking the last week. I had a lot happening at this point, so maybe I'll just start from the easiest thing to mention. I kind of wrapped all my projects at work and took some time off, so I'm not gonna work in my company for the next couple of months for sure. And the reason why I think I'm ready to kind of talk about it online or publicly is that I'm taking my maternity leave.

So I will be out of work for the next six months at least, hopefully more, maybe up to one year. And actually in the Czech Republic, you can take up to four years, which is crazy. When I talked about this to my manager, who happened to be Australian, and we have other managers from US and UK, in those countries, it's just not typical at all.

to go for maternity leave for years. All the people who heard about it were like shocked, jaw dropping and stuff. But yeah, that is what it is in Czech Republic. Like in Romania, I believe you mentioned in the past, you have a huge amount of time to take for maternity leave. And in Czech Republic, unfortunately, you do so because we don't have enough of the kindergartens. So people are kind of have to take those years. So that's the first thing.

This is an amazing thing. I just want to congratulate you on our podcast as well. I've congratulated you very early on. I was very touched by how early on you shared the news with me. And I was super excited for the day when you will share it with the world and we'll be able to celebrate it. And like everyone will know and as our listeners might know, I also have a daughter. I understand how magic and transformative and difficult it is.

this experience can be. I'm just very happy for you and you're in for just this amazing journey. Congratulations on our podcast as well. Thank you so much. Yes. I mean, you were a great support. Definitely. It's not the news for you, but you were a great supporter in every month I was going through telling me what to expect maybe. So it's really great to talk to someone who actually went through it.

I'm at this point eight and a half months, so one more month to go at least. Hopefully everything's going to be fine there. The podcast is still here. We're not going anywhere. We're definitely planning content to fill out the space when I'll not be available. So no worries there. But yeah, we'll see. We'll see. It's an interesting journey, let's say so.

So I'm finally on the maternity leave and I have more free time because in the last few weeks, it was like kind of hard to manage a lot of things, wrapping up the projects at work, handing off stuff, communicating. And then, you know, like I mentioned last time, I was doing the sort of sales for the new Into UX Jobs masterclass, which we had to wrap really quickly. It was like another kind

of insane project. I almost was sure it's mission impossible to do, let's say, campaign for the masterclass in only 10 days. So it was another challenge, let's say so, to go through because we were not sure if it's going to be happening. I was working very last minute with a DP list

For them, it's like an MVP product. For me, it was like very last minute because I know I only have a couple of weeks left before the due date. And we had to, we had to finish it. Like the landing page is really last minute. I have to work on the content really quickly as well as preparing the sales and like pushing through different channels as much as I can. And I do feel like I did the best I could in this 10 days. We didn't get all the places filled, but it's still, I feel like we couldn't do any better.

especially in this year where it's like super turbulent and the tech crisis and economic crisis, it's not easy. And I know that people are not as willing to invest in education, which is absolutely understanding. So yeah, I think like we all did the best and I'm kind of happy and great that we're done with that kind of promotion campaign. At this point, the first day out of job...

First day on my maternity leave and then first day in the course. So today we just had the kickoff, the preparation, the icebreakers and like sort of process setup. It was pretty cool. I'm still processing it. We only finished it like half an hour ago and I don't know. We will see. I'll report back how it goes. I think it was good. Yeah. How about your week? I feel like I shared lifetime news and now we're talking just about how the last week went. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's hard for me to say anything after that. Plus, my last week really wasn't spectacular. It was just regular week. Oh, I mean, what was very exciting was that on my current product, the Clipboard AI, it's the name of the product I work on within UiPath. And of course, it has an AI component. It's very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very,

It's basically an AI-based product. So it's just more than a component. We have a GPT component there, but we're also doing a lot more than that with AI. So on my product, I'm currently working on a very big redesign. And last week was the showcase week. So I showcased it to our CEO, to the VP of design, to all the managers, my teammates, to everyone. And it was this incredible reception that I couldn't even hope for.

And it's just a great feeling. So when you are able to understand the problem space so deeply that people look at it and feel that this is the way it should be, this is the right direction, this is what we want for this product, this is a total upgrade. So this kind of feedback that I elicited and people were super happy and sometimes they would just, it looks great, it's awesome, I love this, it makes so much sense. Why didn't we think about it from the beginning? And this kind of feedback, it was very, very rewarding for me.

And it was a great week in this aspect. But yeah, apart from that, nothing spectacular. I'm just trying to have a very normal, linear existence right now. I've had a lot of intense emotions for the past couple of years. So now I just want to settle with just getting good feedback on my design. And that's what's spectacular. I mean...

Your news is spectacular and I don't want to minimize it in any way, but I'm happy that I don't have a lot of updates and changes in life. I built a business. I left the business. I built 10 more businesses. I'm an entrepreneur now. I'm not an entrepreneur anymore. I just...

I'm just a designer and I'm happy to be a designer. I mean, we're switching places, aren't we? Exactly. I keep taking my shift now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's great. I think it's good to be in this place. You need to have this calm places sometimes in your life. And I'm glad that you're just enjoying your design work. That's all that you need, especially if you get such a great feedback. It's awesome. Yeah.

Yeah. And I really feel like after a long time, I've also been on maternity leave. So I've been doing consultancy work. I've worked with a startup. I was a co-founder. It was a lot of product work. But right now I feel like I'm doing the most product work, like correct product work, like a lot of research, research heavy research.

I have calls with people using the product every day, two times a day. It's just like we're really doing product right now. And that's what's so rewarding that I feel like for the first time in a long time, I'm doing things as they should be done. Like, of course, not everything is ideal and there's a lot of room for improvement in the process and everything. But mostly it's a very well-informed decision space in my product. And that's just incredible.

incredible. I'm happy. So let's jump into the topic for today. Speaking of jobs, we both had full-time jobs, full-time roles. Obviously, to get there, we've made the decision to apply to that job, to go through the recruitment process, to accept the offer. We've probably had offers that we didn't accept at other companies, both of us.

So let's speak from our own experience, like the things that stood out. Maybe you want to talk about all the jobs you've had and how you decided to choose them. What were red flags or things that you felt were going to be good? What was your experience navigating the job opportunities you've had so far?

Well, it's a very broad topic for sure. I will try to be concise to make sure we take the best of this time. I feel like in most of my experiences before searching for a job, I was not always very strategic. So for example, the first three jobs or the first three offers I accepted were not coming from the place where I was strategically looking for them. I knew what I'm targeting. I knew exactly what kind of company it needs to be and stuff like that.

So in the past, it was a little bit more of a let's go with the flow. Let's accept it. But I also like this, like it was a disclaimer that two jobs out of three last I had to accept because of the layoffs. Right. So I didn't have many options at that time.

So like during the pandemic, when it happened, I was laid off because it was a hospitality industry. And then I accepted the first job offer coming my way. I was super lucky, I felt like, because, well, who finds the job in the middle of the first COVID wave, you know, like first three months of COVID wave.

So I did felt like super lucky to accept the job and having the job offer come in my way. But at the same time, I have to admit, I was not super strategic and I was just happy that something comes in my way. And I think it's a lot of people would like early stage in their career, you

even though I was not early stage, but it was like an interesting situation. But like a lot of people early stage in their career, they're just happy you find the job because it's hard to find the first job. Anyways, so coming back to the point or the topic of this conversation, I feel like I didn't really look too much into it.

And I think mainly I was figuring out the red flags as I started working there. And there's pros and cons because you can actually spot a couple of the red flags as you're applying, as you're talking to the potential manager, as you are looking into even like their recruitment advertisement.

You can figure out a lot of red flags and you can avoid a lot of pitfalls. For example, the job, the second job I took after being laid off, you know, in the beginning of COVID, I didn't, again, think about it twice. I was happy to accept the offer, but it was in the very strong tech, like, race wave. And I didn't,

think about the market landscape at all. What happened is that, okay, I got an offer, great, I'm jumping in. And one year and a half later, there is a first wave of lays off because tech companies suddenly are in crisis. A lot of companies got remote. A lot of companies got great investment. They were having this

wave of income and then they were all having stocks up and then suddenly pandemic is over, stocks are down and then investors did not receive on their promises. So a lot of tech companies went through the, as you know today, what's happening in the market. I didn't think about it when I was accepting that offer. I could think about the market landscape. I could definitely be rational about it and imagine that

why is this company so on the raise right now while everyone else is struggling? But yeah, it's my kind of like lesson learned that I need to be more evaluative of the market. So that's the first thing I can mention. Again, red flags, couldn't spot them because I had a good chemistry with my manager back then. I felt like people were really nice. So I was kind of happy.

As I started working, immediately I started seeing, not to say red flags, but like, let's say, not perfections in the company, in the culture, in the thing that's written online. And I could have read it more attentively, like in a glass door and stuff. But I could only experience them and see it on my own to understand what was working and what wasn't. I don't regret it. I think it's great.

to go through that and then learn what you shouldn't be doing next time because my next job I approached much more strategically. And now this is me talking about my next experience when I started looking into companies much more intentionally. So I would definitely do the research. I would read a lot about what people say about those companies.

I would also ask a lot of questions to design managers. I would make sure I eliminate the risks as much as possible because, you know, being laid off twice in a couple of years, it's not fun. And I didn't want this to happen again. And my approach to making it more strategically made me actually look into those red flags. Again, I did not apply to those companies who had any red flags. I think we'll get into this in this conversation.

specifically about each of the, let's say, bullet points in the red flags list. But from the advertisement, you can actually see those red flags about how they talk about the company, what they expect from designer. Are they transparent enough? Do they know who they're looking for in a real and not just copy-pasting their advertisement? Those are the things I started looking into. And when I made the list of the companies I want to apply for, so it was a list of like 15 companies I was participating

potentially interested in, there were not companies that ever had any red flags. So I already read all about their reviews in the Glassdoor. I understood about their hierarchy and strategy. I read about them online, in the news, about their mission statements. I looked into their leaders, CEOs, and NEC-level people. Looked into middle management in LinkedIn. And I was really prepared, I guess.

So I removed all the potential red flags. We can talk about these red flags later on. But I actually want to mention one more little story. Again, still coming back to the experience I had. I went into the interviewing process, meaning all those portfolio presentations, the

design thinking challenges and interviews and all that with four companies. And one of those companies felt pretty good around what they were telling me. Like they were telling me on the interviews, all the great stuff I needed to hear about their process. You know, I had a picture in mind about the type of company I want to work at. So for example, I needed to work in the tribe model where I'm very close to the partners, to PM, to tech lead, to stakeholders when the ratio designers to developers is not big. And so like,

On the paper, everything was great about the company. It's like this sexy startup, not startup anymore, actually, Skylab, that raised money during the pandemic. And everything was looking good about them, but I still did not have a full, let's call it, chemistry with the design manager. So the design manager was on paper good, but then it just didn't feel right or didn't feel like good chemistry. We're vibing, we understand each other, we're in the same wave.

we're human, you know, we're, you know, we're having fun or something like there was no, none of this. And then one big red flag that happened to me at the end of the process already, when I went through all the stages and presented the portfolio, did all the interviews. I remember they were scheduling the last call with me. I think that last call was really more about the job offer they were giving me. So they kind of hinted that,

we're happy to take you, we're happy to have you, let's jump on an interview or let's jump on the last call and we will have the discussion. But no official offer on paper. So no like, you know, PDF where you receive all the terms and conditions. Because from all other companies that I applied to, I applied to four companies and got four offers actually, I received like some sort of official offer on the paper that was issued legally and

And then this company, they didn't issue it and they just wanted to make a call. And that was already a little bit weird because I knew that they maybe want to negotiate something. They want to have this kind of private conversation, nothing on paper just yet.

And I'm joining that call, expecting to have that negotiation conversation. And the first thing that really stood out to me and turned me off a little bit was that when I joined the, I think it was Zoom meeting, it was already in recording. So I joined in the meeting and it's recorded and I've never been asked for permission to be recorded.

And I know it's a sensitive topic or a sensitive meeting when we're supposed to discuss an offer. So that was a huge red flag to me. And since I already knew where I'm not vibing with that design manager, I felt like there is no chemistry and there is maybe no trust even because this manager doesn't really like, I don't know, joke around with me, you know, just doesn't feel human enough. So yeah, joining on that meeting, being immediately recorded, never acknowledging that it's recorded and for what purposes it will be used. And

And then they also used some manipulative techniques to tell me that I'm good, we see a huge perspective in you, but, you know, we think you still need some growth to do. We think you're great, but... And, like, downgrading everything I was presenting before, that felt very off. And so that was, like, the job offer I immediately knew I will not accept. And...

That was a big, big red flag at the end of the journey when everything seemed to be kind of good on paper. But, you know, in reality, small things like this kind of tell a lot about the company and their culture. And then I've heard a lot about it from other people who applied to that company that it's not very healthy in terms of how they manage their work. People are all like burned out and there's just too much stress. And yeah, they had some other health issues.

reputation issues but long story short i've learned that it's not just advertisement where you can filter away companies and even during the interviewing process you still might think it's a great company but at the end there are small things that could indicate manipulation on your site and that's a very indicative thing to me so that's my story how about you if you look back in your i guess applications what were the things that stood out for you as a red flex so

So I personally didn't really have a lot of interviewing in my life because I've been very stable with my full-time jobs. So when I landed my job as a UX designer within ING, I was already with ING for six years or five years. So I was in the company. So I knew all the red flags and I knew all the green flags and I understood what's going on. And then when I moved to UiPath, that was the

First job I applied from ING, I think there was another one that I didn't really continue interviewing for because of the red flags. The other one was sort of this very big bank, but banks are traditionally known to have poor design maturity. And in that case, it was extremely obvious from the interviewing process that design was sort of

led by engineering. There was no product, really. It was just IT people trying to figure out how to fit design in their development process, which is what's supposed to happen in a way. I mean, that's the thing. Design and development and they're part of the same process of building products. But it sort of felt like there's no

pre-existing design culture and I'm the one who's supposed to build it. And in that moment, I didn't have the maturity and experience to allow me to navigate this kind of environment. So I realized it was a mismatch.

And then in their interview with UiPath, I initially joined the marketing team. There were some red flags, again, in terms of like the problems that marketing teams have with design in general, right? That the UX designer reports to the marketing person, like, is that correct? Well, it is because we're working on the website in this case. But it's strange because the marketing person doesn't really understand UX.

So, I mean, they should have some understanding, but it's not like there's the strong design culture. It's more like very, let's say, click driven and stuff like that. And it's not so much about the experience. It's about different metrics that, of course, I understand that like all UX is also about metrics. I'm not.

diminishing metrics but it was like that kind of conversation where you could tell that even though there were some designers so there was this let's say head of design in the marketing team and there was a UI designer already hired and I was the UX designer and there was another UI designer so that we were four people doing UX in a way for for the website it felt like things are

quite all over the place. And that was also because the company was in hyper growth stage and most of the processes were overlapping a bit all over the place, stuff like that. So it was just like the normal, there was a natural phase in the journey of a company. So that's why I decided to accept, embrace the red flags because I understood that if you want to join a company that's at that stage,

you're probably going to have to deal with that set of problems. But you should be aware that you're making that decision and make it intentionally, not just end up there and then you had different expectations and it's all like a disappointment or it's shock or you realize you're not ready for that. And even in the interviewing process, the project manager, I think, was her role. I had an interview with her, which was not part of the process. It was more like, let's get to know each other, see if we have chemistry because we'll be working a lot together, etc.

And she told me, hey, this is pretty hectic. It's intense. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of pressure. And just know that I just wanted to be open with you, honest with you. And I appreciated that. And I realized that you could say that's a red flag, but that's also something that you decide to face, like own. So.

So I knew what I was getting myself into. And indeed, in the beginning, it was pretty hectic, even in the marketing. Then I moved to the product team in two, three months after joining. And the product team was even more hectic because it was super intense. And we were establishing the design culture. And four years, I think it's almost more than four years that I've been with them. Things have changed a lot. So it pays off to sort of deal with some red flags.

have some fights but this is for another conversation I just wanted to say that I went through this experience as well this year there was like this turbulence the sea storm and then finally now after one year it got to the place when it's like not to say all sorted out but there is a stable design culture that is establishing itself and it's growing and we're

getting better and better and better. Even it's a bed that I'm leaving at this point, but there was turbulence. A lot of people felt like it's not going well and even left.

And I was even thinking about it. And then I went through it and I felt so good. And I feel like it's a good experience to have and to go through and to understand what it takes to work in the scale up or in the hyper gross companies, which is great experience you don't often get. So I think it's a learning experience in any ways. And that's true that you have to embrace it and understand what you're signing up for. So it's not maybe even the red flag. It's just more of the thing you'll realize and either accept or not. Yeah.

Yeah, I agree. And I feel that I've also had some other interviews. There was this offer that I really considered accepting. I think I can be transparent now about it. It was with EA Sports working for FIFA, leading their product from the offices they have here in Romania. And I had to turn it down because I just learned I was pregnant. And

And I told them that I would really maybe have liked to work on FIFA. I think it's like a dream. I was a computer gamer in my childhood and I played FIFA and my husband, he also worked for FIFA. So it was pretty nice to like, because I had a lot of insights already.

And I really considered that job, but I was pregnant and I told them and they really were picking up green flags, for example. They really insisted that I accept the offer, that me being pregnant is absolutely no problem. And I didn't feel like they're saying it because it's politically correct, because they really insisted. Like they kept calling me and they kept pushing for it. So it really felt authentic. And I really understood that it's a great people culture if this is really...

it would have been very easy for them to say, ah, she's going to be out for two years. We're not going to hire her. But for them, it was like, no, we want this person. We think she's a great fit. We're going to wait for her. We're going to see how we address her missing in the meantime, but we want her here. So that was great, right? Now I'm in the green flag area. But yeah, red flags, I...

I think there were some red flags also, like people complaining about some of the recruitment processes that UiPath, early UiPath had. Like we had a logic test and that was not very nice, I think. Because for some people, it felt like, what are you evaluating? I'm a designer. I'm not supposed to figure out mathematical problems. Or maybe this was due to the fact that they had a lot of applications. So everybody in Romania...

tried just to explore this opportunity with them because it was like the biggest success story and it was super sexy and everybody wanted to work there so maybe there was this like three

triage method. Like, let's put something in place that kind of filters out candidates. But sometimes it really filtered out very good candidates. And also there was a design challenge. And you know how design challenges are very controversial. And I'm not fully sure about them. I think they could work in some cases when they're...

maybe paid or they don't take up so much time. I mean, it's an entire conversation in itself, but there were some general red flags, let's say. But what I'm arguing and where I think we're beginning at, and I think this is a great segue into listing the red flags, the most common ones. I think that if you learn to recognize them, and maybe at the end we can wrap up with tips and tricks to recognize them. I think that if you own them, you can accept them, right? So it's like,

With every relationship in life, we're not going to find the perfect person. You're not going to find the perfect relationship. You just decide that you can deal with a set of problems as opposed to another set of problems. It's the same with job. So let's move into a list of red flags that we know are prevalent in the industry. And I'm going to hand you the mic.

I just wanted to say that I really like it, this insight you just gave. And I feel like it's already going to go into our three takeaways.

that you either accept it or not like it's all about honest conversation you're having with your hiring manager and there are things you can accept and there are things you cannot accept and it's really only up to you right just like you do with the people who's partner who's selecting the partner for your life we're not perfect there are no perfect companies there will have their pros and cons at the end of the day you have to choose what's up for you or what's not

Okay, so lists of the red flags. Let's start with the red flags, right? And then we can also discuss the green flags. As for me, a lot of the red flags are showing up in the beginning of, you know, your hiring process or like application process.

So you can spot many red flags in the advertisement, be it on any job boards or on LinkedIn or whatever, whenever you're applying or even like through the networks, which is even better because you can talk to people who work there and ask for their inner perspective. I think it's important to recognize that there is no perfect company again. I just want to emphasize on this because there always will be great things and bad things to say about every single company. Nobody figured it out in a way that it's

I'll lay it out for you. It's perfect. Come and join and it will be a fantastic place. You can definitely appreciate if companies like working on their culture and appreciate the culture, having it, right? Not just like working on project to project in you people as a resource. That's the first red flag already, I guess, as I was talking, I realized. When you can spot from the advertisement that they treat people as a resources, not as people, not as human beings, creatives,

people with their own creative world, critical thinking, experience, point of view, whatnot, right? But really like here is the brief, go fill it out.

almost like you give it today as a prompt to judge GPT. That's the type of a company which for me is absolutely a red flag. It's like a category of companies. Could be a lot of companies. And to be honest, we're still in this like UX industry is what, like 20 years old right now or kind of actively old. But it's still happening a lot. And often you would notice those LinkedIn advertisements

And I sometimes even like to screenshot them and kind of point out the things that does indicate that maybe you're treating people like robots and not like people, not like individuals.

And some things that might stick out to me when it comes to analyzing those job advertisements is that they would require you to do everything, which is a big, big sign that maybe it's not a UX mature culture. Oh, actually, this is another cluster. So I'm talking right now, but I also realize a couple of things, right? The first category is like,

People as resources, second category, not UX mature company. Again, you can accept that it's not UX mature company. I think like the more you are mature as a designer, the more you're like design lead, design leader, you can start talking to companies that are not UX mature, but want to become one and you can maybe help them with your expertise and if it's interesting for you.

The second category could be that maybe it's not UX mature as to what you want to have in your life. Because accepting and offering a not UX mature company means a lot of work, doing a lot of things, not always being appreciated in terms of what you're doing, right? So maybe the work you're doing is just more like pixel pushing, jumping from project to project.

as well as not giving opportunities to impact business and stuff like that. But back to the list, sorry. Coming up with a lot of points as I'm talking. So companies are required to do everything. That's the first no-brainer. Easy to spot.

Something like, we want you to know Figma, InVision, Adobe, write HTML, CSS code. Also iOS and Android would be great. Would be great if you understand design systems. Or also would be great if you have a bachelor degree and also you have three years of experience. And that's internship, by the way. It's not paid. No.

Those are great, great red flags that indicate that this is the company that doesn't understand what design is, doesn't value it, doesn't have any design maturity, as well as you're going to be treated as resource, not as person. Other things that could indicate these two categories that when they say we're looking for UX designer, but then in a description, you would see things like working on design system. Those are different roles. I mean, they could go hand in hand and you could be like the person working on many things.

especially in the companies that are very startup-ish. But you kind of have to give it a proper title as well. You need to indicate in the title that if you're a UX designer, but also work in design systems, then it's both. It's not just UX designer. Or even just when it's very like you're saying, it's product designer or UX designer. And then at the same time in the description, it's all about the handoff, the deliverables, etc.

the mockups and that's it. And there is nothing about the design process, the research, the strategy, being able to, you know, to have a seat at the table and discussing the priorities and stuff like that. Let's see again the list. List is: require you to do everything, having the wrong UX title, no payment, I guess. That's a very strong indicative sign, especially when they require you years of experience, but no unpaid internship and stuff like that.

That's obviously a sign that it's not a company that would appreciate the design. Or maybe, yeah, like things like require you to do irrelevant things, things that you, it would be good if you understand, but they require you to do them, right? So as a product designer, you're required to code the prototypes, right?

because maybe they don't have resources to pay for developers. So again, for me, that would be red flags. Maybe for some not. Maybe if you're specializing in being the full stack design-oper or something, it's okay for you. Again, it's back to what you accept, what's right for you. But for me, that would be an irrelevant skill when I'm applying for the product design role, because the product design role already indicates it's so vibrant and there are so many things to do already.

and being able to code it, it's not going to be easy to manage. It's a lot of things to do and handle at the same time. So I think that's like the key red flags you can spot at the job advertisement. And when it comes to green flags, ultimately, as for me, it's all about...

companies knowing who they target. So once they have a pretty good and nicely written advertisement, right? So they kind of like very transparent about who they want, who they target, maybe even like their salary ranges. So they're being transparent. They were being honest and

about the process, about the type of expertise you need to have. As you read this advertisement, it's good because it's very indicative and that explains that they know who they're looking for. They're probably mature enough about it. And then good, great insights for me would be really about reading their culture.

So, for example, going into Glassdoor, reading what people say about the culture, about the values, about the diversity, maybe if that's important for you, about the work-life balance, about the leadership. I never before realized how important is leadership because I think in the past I was working more like at the bottom. And the more I progress in my career, the more access I have to leadership. And I

Never thought how important it is to actually hear what your CEO has to say and how important that they're being, you know, good people, first of all. And obviously compensation and benefits. So like reading a lot about the company culture and if you see or hear there are good signs, like something that I appreciate, something that you need to be hearing, that's first of all, green flag. Yeah.

then I think another very big and important green flag is, I mean, they're like established design mature culture, right? They know their process and they know who they need.

So they will honestly tell you, here is where we are. You know, like this is our design growth stage. There are the gaps and we're interested in filling these gaps. We want people who are okay working with this context. This is our design process at the moment. We're trying to improve X, Y, Z. And then we need people with these qualities. For example, in my company, we had this situation that, you know, company went through the COVID and it's a hospitality company. And they did had to go also through the layoffs. And then only a few people could work on like a big product. So

So they had only a few people and those people become very, let's say, strongly opinionated about the product. And then when the company was unfrozen and started hiring actively again, we kind of faced a culture clashes when you would have a lot of people who are here for years and who are very protective of design decisions. And then there are new people who came with a fresh perspective. And to change the status quo and old way of doing things,

You really need strong people who are not afraid to come in and don't be intimidated by old people, but being able to push through the things, to move the needle, to actually build a case, to actually push for a change. So when the company knows what kind of qualities they look for in designers, like they would say, we need articulated people with strong storytelling skills, with strong ability to rationalize their decision and stuff like that.

That's a very good sign to me because it seems like they are very mature. They know what they're looking for and they're very honest in telling you about that. So yeah, that's the third green flag as for me. And I guess a simple one to pick would be, of course, that they're transparent about their benefits or salary ranges because

Because this way you can save their time, your time. And it's just, I really love when it's transparent. I think like we're looking into a few years, we all need to start having this rule. And the governmental legal level, the companies has to be transparent about their salary ranges. So nobody's wasting time and it's all equal. And female get as well paid as males and stuff like that. So that's about it on my side. How about you? What would you mention in a green and red flags?

I think you've touched on most of the things that are prominent or well-known in the market. I'm just going to list my, whatever comes to my mind. So I feel that vague or...

over demanding job descriptions are the first thing. So if they're super vague, it's clear that they don't understand what they need. So there's going to be, if they don't understand what they need, you won't understand if you're the right person. They won't understand if you're the right person. And then if you end up in the role, there's going to be some friction there. Probably, again, nothing that you can't deal with.

But I think that all choices should be made in awareness. So vague or over demanding job descriptions. I would also always ask, where is design reporting into? This is a question that I always ask in the few interviews I've had. I was very curious about that because sometimes you're going to get weird answers like the designer reports to the product manager. Like, how is that possible? Or the designer reports to the IT lead, which is worse. Or...

I don't know, maybe sometimes if it's a very small company, the designer reports directly to the CEO, which in a way is fine because you have some influence, but it's still weird because it shows that they don't have an organizational structure of like design leadership and so on. So where is design reporting into is another thing that you would want to look into in the beginning.

Again, I think the maturity of the hiring process reflects the maturity of the processes in general. So I would also look like how is the hiring process happening? Because if it's like super long, super disorganized, all over the place, you can probably assume that it's going to be similar in all aspects of the design company culture and teams.

Sometimes a red flag is just that they tell you that things are hectic, which is in a way a red flag. In another way, it's a green flag because it means they're aware and they're transparent about it. So and then you're the one who's making the choice. But that also I remembered I had another interview recently and I had that in the interview. I think the hiring manager told me that, hey, things are pretty insane now. It's a lot of changes, moving parts, everything.

uncertainty, lack of clarity. And so I knew what I would be getting myself into. I chose not to. I feel that other things are like if you spot toxicity or like ego stuff in an interview, that's pretty dark, I would say, because if you can't put a good face for an interview, then it's probably going to be a lot worse in a day to day interaction. So ego problems I'm talking about.

the hiring manager, the rest of the team, like if you feel strange dynamics, like power dynamics, like if they talk bad about other people in the company or the product managers, the engineers, that's not a good sign. It means that that's probably the company culture and you'll be dragged into a lot of drama. And I think that on the green flag side,

I feel that being respectful of your time, really showing that they're interested in even what time works best for you for the interview. Like what time zone are you in? What's your preference? Like being polite. This is something that sounds like super common sense, but you don't experience it often. So I had conversations with a startup on the West Coast.

And they were totally not respectful of my time. Like, I understand that there's a 10-hour times of difference, but they would schedule calls at 10 p.m. my time without checking with me. So that was kind of like, okay, if we're doing this in the interviewing process when we're putting our best show, how is life going to be after that, right? So yeah, that's also something that the rest, like, and then the alternative, like being respectful of your time zone, the differences, and also like with everything else.

The feeling that they're inclusive, they're nice, they're open, they're transparent. You understand at all stages what's next.

Something I really appreciate is when the design people you talk with, they share the struggles. Like I always ask them, what's your biggest challenge right now? What are your current struggles? What are the problems you're facing? Where are things becoming conflicts in the company and in the design theme? And sometimes they're very honest about it. And that's great. I mean, honesty and just feeling that they want you to understand what you're signing up for. That's a great green flag. And for me, a green flag is just chemistry.

right? So I just like the people I talk with. I feel they're like people I would enjoy working with. And there is just, it doesn't have to be a happy conversation or just a positive conversation, but just a conversation where I'm interested in this person. Like in a way I'm interested in what they do. I'm interested in what this product does. I feel some excitement about it because of the things I see. So I think this would be

essentially translated to observing yourself in the process, kind of trusting your gut feeling, kind of trusting your feelings or at least factoring them in this decision. So that's what comes to my mind. And maybe we could end up with instead of takeaways, maybe some tips and tricks of figuring out how to elicit all this

inside like how do I navigate it how do I know because like sometimes people aren't immediately toxic what are the tips and tricks of navigating jobs maybe that's a good ending let's try I definitely don't have a list of tips and tricks I think it's totally still a tricky at the end of the day it always comes to the gut feeling you got like when I joined that meeting and I was recorded I immediately knew it's not gonna work and

Again, gut feeling, you knew it. It just doesn't feel right, you know? So oftentimes your gut feeling tells you what is right for you and what's not. I think that we also had a conversation with Tanner and Christensen, if you remember, and

And he did mention that gut feeling is like telling you a lot. You don't need even like outside perspective or science. You just trust it, you know. And I kind of agree with this perspective that it either sits well with you or you're not feeling good. And if you're feeling not so great in whatever stage, in whatever they're saying and how they're saying, it's probably a good sign that it's a red flag for you.

We all have different red flags. I don't want to generalize and say that if this is not your ex-mature company, it's a red flag because it's at the end of the day, it's your choice. Like we discussed earlier today, it's the list of what you choose to accept. There are no perfect companies. There are things that are good for you and then there are things that are not acceptable for you.

And so you have to choose what is your own, not to say red flags, but like list of things you would be able to tolerate. And the rest is really like your emotional reaction to how it feels, how those people treat you. And I really like your point about being respectful. I feel like if you're not being respected in this process, according to your values, that's a big, big, big red flag.

most likely you won't be happy there if it's being continuously like this. And so it comes down, on my perspective, from the conversations we just had, it just comes down to how human they are, how respectful they are. Your personal list of, that sits well with me and that doesn't. So what I'm willing to tolerate, maybe that's a good question to ask yourself before you even start the application process.

And then just general rule of thumb, right? You know, things such as how they treat the job description. Is it copy-pasted? Are they consistent in what they're saying? Are they honest? Do they feel transparent? Or do you feel like they're sugarcoating everything? Like also you mentioned, Joanne, I like that you didn't forget about this point. If they don't know what they want, right? If they want everything in one advertisement, you to be perfected.

person three in one jack of all trades those are the signs that i would consider red flags but also it's my personal point of view right for some people being jack of all trades is actually what they want in life and that's not a red flag so it's really a conversation i would have with myself first of all and we always come to this point being self-reflexive no

knowing what you want, being prepared for this and not just being thrown into it and not knowing if it's the right thing for you. So you're jumping into it. And then like I did in the past, a few times figuring out in the process that it's not right for me or that this company doesn't have a good perspective in the next few years and you might be laid off. Yeah.

So yeah, that's my kind of takeaway, one big fat takeaway. What about yours? I'm going to build on top of the things you've shared. I think that another option would be like, you know how in the recruitment process and in your job application, they ask you to refer people they can call and talk about

you and how you behaved. I think that we can also be empowered to do that. And this leads me to a reminder, an important reminder that this entire episode is about spotting red flags, green flags, understanding if you want that job, but always keep in mind that yes, you are interviewing them as well. So that's why you're doing it because you're making a decision. They're not just making a decision about you. You are making a decision about

them. So on this train of thought, I feel that you can also check up with people who worked at their company. So I would personally reach out if I have any doubt or if like there's some sort of suspicion that things are not okay. I will look up other designers that work there or have worked there and reach out to them and tell them, hey, I'm exploring this opportunity. I'm trying to figure out if I would be good for this job and if it's what I

think it is and could you share a little of your experience and like not trash talking the company necessarily but

but gaining some insights, right? Like here are the pros, here are the cons, here's what I liked, here's what I disliked. Some people are open to doing that. So you can also check for referrals or you can use the power of the internet. You've mentioned Glassdoor, I think Indeed.com has that. I think there are some other platforms. We're going to link it in the show notes because I hope I remember in the meantime. There's another platform where people go in complete anonymity and they talk about

their companies. And so that's where you could get some insights provided that the company is like big enough or it's there, but it could be also relevant. So you have some opportunities to explore the red flags as they are told by other people on the internet or directly by reaching out to them. And then also like,

You mentioned it, we've touched upon it a couple of times, just asking a lot of questions. The more questions you ask, the more you can probe for consistency, probe for transparency, understand if it's like the same answer. Because sometimes, like, it's hard to hide things. And they will come up, right? If they talk long enough, some things will come up. So that's also a very important point. I want to add a little point. I really like that you didn't forget and mention that it's good to reach out to people to ask questions.

But what I want to add to this is that it's also good to reach out to people who are not necessarily designers,

But if those people even work with like other roles, for example, PMs. For example, I did have this interview with my current company and I talked to the product director. And for a second, I felt like, hmm, it doesn't feel like this person understands design process and values it. I did have my like doubt or guard up. And I felt like, is this person UX aware? Let's say so at least. Not mature, but aware. And I found our common commonality.

connection in LinkedIn. There was another designer who worked with him in the past and asked him if he's a good person and if it's easy to work with him design-wise. And he actually confirmed that he was a great person, that your doubts maybe are a little like...

Just don't be worried. He squashed my worries and I started working with that director and he was great. He was amazing. So I'm really happy to reach out and ask not just about the design people, but also about the other roles that might play a big role because it's a very collaborative industry.

So yeah, that's the last thing I wanted to just build up on. Well, let's just wrap up this conversation. And I'm happy that we've had it because I think it's very useful for, especially for young designers trying to navigate this decision. It feels paralyzing. I think with the market right now, some people might take whatever comes their way for now. But when the market recovers, definitely it's going to be important to make informed decisions when you're choosing a job. And

And again, even if you make a mistake, that's great. You're going to learn from it and you're going to understand, you're going to get better at navigating this challenge of finding the right job. Thank you everyone for tuning in. If you want to support us, you can do it in two ways. Go on Spotify, give us a rating.

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Just thank you so much for tuning in and for listening. We're really happy that you listened up until this point. Thank you. Hope you're having a great day. Bye, everyone. Bye-bye.