#98 Is it the time to quit UX and move on?
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I think you should strongly reflect if your burnout has to do with design or has to do with the tech industry, because it might just be that the tech industry is draining, not the design role or the PM role or being an engineer. Maybe tech is draining in general because it's an industry that's exploded, then slowed down, then exploded again. It's moving.

Hello, designers, and welcome to a new episode of Honest UX Talks. As always, I'm joined by Anfisa, and today we will be discussing a very tough topic. Are designers quitting the design industry? And how do you know when to quit in case you're considering it? If

If you're listening to this episode, you have probably considered it, which made you hit play. So let's see what our experience, our thoughts and our understanding of the state of the industry are right now. But before we get started, I just want to remind everyone that we are sponsored by Mobin and it's just a great...

company to be working with because what I'm always stressed out when I have a brand partnership or whatever is that I'm going to feel salesy when I talk about them and people are going to just react like, oh my God, she's trying to promote that thing and whatever. But recently I had a post about them on Instagram and it went viral because people were essentially complaining

commenting how much they love Mobbin. So it was so authentic and relieving for me to not have to feel like that. So yeah, it turns out that every time we talk about it, people are responding very well. And I've been trying to run some surveys to understand how designers in 2024 gather design inspiration. What's their go-to place? Is Dribbble still a thing? Is Behance still a thing? It turns out that some people are still using it, but mostly for

UI inspiration, not so much UX. So I think the industry now gets it. That Dribbble and Behance are just most of the times eye candy stuff that has no strong thinking behind it, no critical thinking, no real problem that's being solved with constraints and the whole complexity that real problems.

entail. But on Mobbin, they find that. So that's why it seems to be the preferred platform by most people. It's because it features real products, which essentially solve real problems, something that you can't really find on Pinterest or Behance and so on. So I think that that's why people respond with so much enthusiasm. It's because of the realness of the visual inspiration that you can find on Mobbin. And for me,

Playing with it even more in the past month, I feel that it was just very well organized. It really helps me search more meaningfully, more intentionally, arrive at the results or the paradigm interactions, elements, the UI components I'm looking for in a much faster, easier, and very clear way. So I think it's also much better organized from a UX designer standpoint. So yay, I'm very happy we're partnering with a company that I'm proud to talk about and my audience loves it.

If you haven't tried Mobin, go ahead and sign up. It's a free product. They also have premium, a pro subscription that will offer access to more stuff, but you can try it for free and it's really going to help you. But make sure to mention that you found out about Mobin from Honest UX Talks. And now for full transparency.

The reality of life of creators, to be able to continue this partnership and in general, the partnerships we build with brands and products, we really have to be able to trace whatever comes through our channels, through these conversations. And so if you want us to be sustainable in the conversations we're having, it would really help us if you could mention that you found out about Robin from Honest UX Talks. Much appreciated.

Before we get started, how was your past week on FISA? Hello, everybody. Welcome to the next episode. My past week or two were pretty busy because I am very fully engaged with the community. It has been going much better, much stronger. I feel like we finally built the relationships. I'm connecting with the people. We are having right now about 112 community members. So that's exciting because

I'm getting to help a lot of people finding jobs. And yesterday I was checking in on the progress of the job hunt. And I was so excited because I see a lot of people are currently interviewing, getting their feet at the door, which is always the hardest step in the job hunting process. Obviously, people are landing interviews, talking to HRs, going through the portfolio case study presentations, and just a lot of exciting stuff going on. So yes, I'm excited about this. A little bit nervous because next week I'm starting my full-time or part-time job.

job. So we will see how it goes, kind of combining those two projects or full-time plus the project. So yeah, I'm excited, but also a bit stressed. I will roll back and tell you how it goes. But if you're interested in the community, definitely check out the link in the show notes. We are very open and we are always happy to have more people and hopefully I can help you out with the job hunting story. How about you, Joanna? How was your last week or two?

Intense, I think is the perfect word to describe it. Some of our listeners might know if they're listening in sort of real time, not one year from now. I was just at South by I gave a talk about at the intersection of AI and UX. Yeah, I think I talked about it in our previous episode. It was intense. I talked for one hour. I realized that I don't want to do one hour talks ever again in my life.

I felt like it's physically an effort to talk for 57 minutes straight, but it was just an incredible experience. And overall, the South by experience is always great. And I came back tired, but with a lot of inspiration and very energetic, professionally, like, okay,

okay, now I have better clarity on what I'm passionate about, what gets me excited, what I want to spend more of my time doing, which is essentially what I've been doing for the past 10 years, trying to figure out what I like. And I think it really ties nicely into the topic of today, this perpetual introspection where we are trying to

maximize what makes us happy, maximize our satisfaction, maximize career opportunity. There's always this sort of internal pressure of being more aligned with you, being more satisfied and just externally more employable and more competitive. So we always have all these internal and external forces driving us around. And sometimes to get to the topic of our conversation, sometimes these forces kind of point us out towards the exit phase.

And they might say, how about quitting design altogether? Which is something that I've noticed happening in the design industry. I think the first time I'm going to just give a very long intro. Sorry about that, but I think it's important to set the scene and then we can dive into our personal experiences and our thoughts around if we ever considered quitting design and how that did not happen yet.

But we're going to move back into our perspective on it. But now just a general, let's say, snapshot of the industry right now. The first time I noticed that something's happening was when I saw that a lot of the appetite for transitioning into UX design, which was a part of the industry I was very connected with because I had

a boot camp. I have a lot of juniors in my community on UX goodies. So it was the first signal that, okay, not a lot of people are transitioning into UX these days. And it makes all the sense in the world, right? They see layoffs and the market is shrinking and it's not the best moment in history for the design industry. And obviously you're reluctant to switching jobs and moving into a field that's so uncertain at this moment. So it made a lot of sense, but this was the first signal that

It's not as juicy as it was to be a designer five years ago, right? And so the juniors are starting to signal that even some people who managed to transition and some people that I've read on different groups, Facebook groups mostly, success stories of people who transitioned into a UX role and then they realized that,

It's too crazy and it's too unpredictable and unstable. And they just want to go back to whatever they were doing before that. Recently, I was on LinkedIn and I saw a post by my very dear friend, Hang Zhu, who was also guest on our episode recently. Check out that episode with him as well if you haven't already. It's about recruitment and the state of the industry and finding a job in 2024. He recently found a Reddit thread.

that I'm going to read. It's very short, but it's very powerful and telling. I think it's a representation of where the design industry is right now. And it goes like this. I've been a mid-level UX designer for a few years now and have been at my current company for the past two years as one of their in-house designers. Due to some unforeseen circumstances, UX is no longer deemed a necessity in our team and my role has been eliminated.

I was given a few months to find an appropriate position for my skill set within the company, but given the limited options, it was decided that I would be given the role of help desk specialist. So this is an example of how UX is generally losing company buy-in. Of course, it's not an internal decision to leave the design industry. It's just a very bad way in which layoffs and general design lack of buy-in exists.

is manifesting in the industry. And this essentially translates into a lack of motivation or strong demotivators for designers. So even if you've been laid off, but you know you have multiple opportunities and design is still valued, then you might be inclined to continue pursuing a career. But when you've been laid off or your position has been terminated and then there's nothing on the horizon, then of course you're starting to consider the design industry in itself.

And then the only other thing I want to mention as an intro, there's an article by Mate Latin. We're going to add it to our show notes. And the article is about why designers quit. But I think it has a lot to do, even if it's about quitting their roles and maybe moving to different roles. One of the strongest reasons is that you typically get 20% more in your salary if you switch jobs. So, of course, that's a strong motivator for quitting.

your job and moving into another job. But I think that if we look at the reasons for which juniors, seniors, mid-designers, leads are quitting, they're also very telling to the state of the industry right now. So Mate interviewed or ran a survey through almost 300 designers, and he found that the main reasons for which juniors quit their jobs are that they felt they weren't growing as designers. And when I read this, please extrapolate.

to the industry as a whole. So looking at these reasons, they don't just pertain to a particular job or company. They might be symptoms of the industry as a whole. So juniors, they quit because they feel they weren't growing as designers. There is a lack of career progression opportunities and there's low UX design maturity in their teams.

Mid-designers, same reasons. Lack of career progression opportunities, low design maturity. They feel they aren't growing as designers and they're unhappy with the work they're doing. Senior designers tend to quit most because they're unhappy with the work they're doing. They're unhappy with their compensation and there's a lack of career progression opportunity and a low design maturity.

And leads also have an extra reason, which is a poor relationship with their manager. So if you think about all these reasons, I think it's very reflective. It's very telling about the industry as a whole. So the totality of the jobs and of the experiences that we have essentially make the industry. And it turns out that many people

are not happy with the work they're doing. They don't feel satisfied by their work and they feel they're not growing. And I think that we're at a time where if in six years you could progress from a junior to a VP role, which was also not great, that rush to career progression. Now it feels like everyone is stalling in the roles. You see less promotions, less opportunities for growth. And so I think all of these are symptoms of the industry as a whole.

So this was, I think, the longest intro we've had to a conversation so far. But let's move into our experiences around that and how we see this year. And if we're considering quitting design. So Anfisa, did you ever consider quitting design or do you feel that in 2024 you're less motivated to be a designer? So I think it's two questions. What's your current state within the industry and how?

In your history, long career, did you ever have these kinds of feelings and thoughts and really take into account the option of quitting design? There's a lot to unpack here. I think I'll start from reflecting on what you were sharing with us from the posts. I think that generally the reason why we see kind of discouragement on the market today is because

I think the market is honestly adjusting. This is what happens when there is a crisis on the market and the market needs to readjust and find a new way of operating. And that means that we as designers also have to adjust our skills. And I think it's me coming to the point already, but the market right now is not what they teach us today still on the bootcamps or on the courses. The market today needs to be different from what you have been learning already.

all along for the last maybe five years. That's the reality, essentially. I think you have been talking to Jakob Nielsen in the beginning of this year that the market is adjusting, and that's what we can see already, even given these articles on these different posts and different point of views. We can see that this is honestly what is happening, right? The fact that some companies, like you did mention this example, that somebody had to be downgraded sort of or change the role into help desk. That's one of those manifests of the market being readjusted.

And we will see a lot of those companies realizing that the UX they were investing into was not a proper UX. So maybe it's not even worth the investment. Obviously, design used to be an expensive resource. And now a lot of companies might actually want to reconsider it because they maybe didn't feel the value of the user experience design. And we will see this happening more and more often in some companies, I believe, in the next, let's say, up to five years. That's something

companies will be changing the structure. They will be doing a lot of reorganization. And at the end of the day, these companies that are not UX mature, that didn't get to understand what is UX maturity, what is being product-led, user-driven, putting user at the center of their business. If they didn't really truly did it, if they never grew to the stage, at least three of the UX maturity of the company, then there is a big chance they will be restructuring and then UX roles will fall. And that's all right. That only means that we will

finally we'll start prioritizing the proper user experience as a discipline. We will finally start seeing user experience, what it really needs to be doing in the company instead of just pushing pixels and kind of taking orders from let's say PMs or whoever. Sometimes in the companies it's more messy. So instead of just being reactive and just copying the market and trying to kind of survive by floating around, we will see companies moving to really put users at the center, at the core of the business. And that's good. High level.

But the downside of it is obviously we are seeing a lot of discouragement in the market because for the last four years, we have seen a lot of people hyping up the market, a lot of bootcamps, educational courses. I've been also an educator. You have been an educator. We know the drill, right? We have been sharing and making this industry more attractive. A lot of people sort of decided to switch to UX design or in general to design. Over the last four years, especially in the beginning of the COVID, we have seen a surplus of designers moving into the design because it's a remote job, used to be

well-paid. Now it's, again, readjusting a little bit, but still. A lot of people decided it's a great opportunity, started learning courses, and then suddenly now, four years after, we realized that the market has been overhyped. It was too warm already.

And obviously, every market is growing, growing at some point. And then there is a peak and it needs to then go down. And now we are seeing people, even senior designers. And I think you mentioned, it's not just layoffs. It's just that the market has been overhyped. Salaries were overinflated. Yeah.

And now those companies realize that something is wrong, something is working out. There is the market crisis, the tech crisis, the global crisis, whatever crisis, and they need to readjust. That means also that a lot of the companies will now need to either pick the users and actually start properly investing in the UX design as a discipline

building the UX maturity of the company, or they don't. And they kind of opt in into being more of this feature factories kind of companies where they don't even properly need a designer. So for example, I know some companies, I'm not going to say the company, but even my husband right now works in a company where they don't have any designers. And that works. There are companies like that. They're not UX mature. They don't put users in the first place. Especially, I have seen this a lot happening in the B2B space. But again, that's the reality. What I think it means for us, and I'm like getting so excited, sorry.

For all the emotions. I feel like that means for us that, yes, the bar has become much higher. And now we are seeing that even for junior designers today, it's extremely tough. I'm managing the design community, right? I see people trying to break into and find the right first jobs. And it's so hard. In the last four years, a lot of people jumped out of bootcamp and find jobs right away. Today, you really need to spend one, two years sometimes to find the first job.

You have to do a lot of free work. You'll have to do a lot of freelancing. You have to show the enthusiasm and that you're really passionate about it before you even build the right portfolio, build the right skills to get the first job or get your feet at the door, which again means that the bar is much, much higher. We as designers have to really change the way we approach design. It's not just what they teach us at the boot camps. It's not just double diamond and design thinking. It's not just doing the interviews and it's not just

big man, beautiful UI kids. It's much more these days. And some skills become more important. And those skills are not often taught at the bootcamps. For example, presentation skills, communication skills, storytelling type of skills. You know, this is something that you don't really learn in the bootcamps. Nobody's teaching you this for some reason. I hope that some institutions will start realizing the market shift and start telling more theories at least about it. But as of right now, there's a lot of homework you have to do after the bootcamp.

A lot of mentorship you have to take, a lot of self-reflection you have to do, which is, I feel like, brings us to the place of being very overwhelmed, having a lot of realizations, realizing how hard it is that it's not as sexy, as shiny, as easy as everybody was thinking it is in the beginning of the COVID. That's not anymore...

the beautiful shiny thing that you can just quickly take one course without even proper education, just jump right into it. It's not that. And if you spend one, two years trying to break into it, of course you start getting discouraged. And I totally feel that. But I'll be honest,

If I look back into my experience, and this is me finally getting to the point, yes, the bar is very high and a lot of people have to spend sometimes more than one year, year or two, to actually break into the UX and find those UX mature companies that invest in design and invest in designers and also invest in junior designers. But I'll have to be honest, I mean, if I look back into my experience, I think it was the same for me, even though I was breaking into it 2012, 2014, something in between. This is the first year where I was really doing the UX job.

First two, three years, I was not paid. I did a free internship. I was doing a lot of freelance work, which is barely paid. Sometimes my clients were not paying and stuff. I was doing a lot of startups. I did three startups, which failed. And for those four years as I was doing startups, if not five, I was not paid. I was reinvesting my freelance money in the startup. So honestly, I had zero money, essentially, when I was doing the startups, when I was doing freelancing, and when I was doing internships.

And that just means I was investing a lot in the growth and my skills. And that is still happening today in the market. I think that that's exactly what every designer sometimes have to go through. And that's fine. Sometimes you're lucky. You find the opportunity really quick if you have a strong network, if you have somebody who can vouch for you. But sometimes you have to break into it and really pave your way into it.

That's like broad answer to the first part of the question. Second part of the question, did I ever thought about quitting it? And I was surprised you mentioned that some senior designers are actually considering waiting because I feel like the senior designers, especially if you're working in a more UX mature companies, which is more common for seniors, are in a better place. I feel like a lot of companies today for senior designers, obviously, you know, companies always want seniors. But if you're only one senior designer, there's a possibility that that's not a UX mature company. So you might be barred.

out by doing too much work and stuff like that. So yeah, I'm surprised to see some seniors are saying this is not for them. I'm quitting after years in the industry. I personally didn't think about it. I'd be curious to hear if you had those thoughts, but I definitely didn't think about it. The things I have been entertaining is really more about obviously just like what is the right niche for me? Where do my skill manifest the best? It's like, especially now as I'm on maternity leave, I reflect a lot

on where would I fit the best, where I would achieve the best results given my skills, given my interests, given my energy and blah, blah, blah. So yes, there is a lot of like thinking and reflection. What is the best fit for me? And I definitely didn't think about quitting it. I think every time I'm talking about design, I'm just overly hyped and excited and I cannot shut up about it. It's definitely my thing. Question is only where do I fit in best?

just like everybody. Maybe you have some thought about it. What do you think? Did you ever think about quitting? All the time. Well, yeah, not all the time, but it has crossed my mind. I mean, not seriously up to this point. I think I have close to 10 years in the design industry and it's

been very diverse for me. I mean, I've constantly had new opportunities, new problem spaces, different ways of interacting with the design industry through content creation, with brands, working with my full-time roles, but also consulting startups. So I've been doing a variety of things, which really kept me entertained, constantly motivated, constantly excited and full of energy. So I never had that moment when I said I can't find meaning.

in what I do. And whenever I found these moments where I felt like, what's the meaning? I realized that I just need to change something and I changed something and I was lucky enough to have new opportunities when I needed them. And so I felt like it was an engaging experience so far. But I do recognize the industry burnout. I

I realized that our roles have been challenged from multiple angles, like not just things, internal things like imposter syndrome, frustrations that design doesn't have a seat at the table. And we still need to convince our product manager to plug us in the process early on, not as an afterthought. We still need to convince developers to respect the mock-ups and so on. So frustrations that have essentially perpetuated.

in the design industry for all of these years could lead to this feeling of burnout. And sometimes I do fantasize that maybe I'm going to have a more analog kind of job, like open a niche perfumery or whatever I'm dreaming about when I'm daydreaming about different futures. But I haven't seriously considered leaving the design industry yet because, yeah, I'm lucky enough to have had interesting opportunities that constantly kept me motivated and excited. But

What do you do when you're in that burnout? So what's your advice to anyone who's experiencing the real experience of feeling completely drained by the industry, completely drained by the design role, and they just don't want to do it anymore? How do you know when is the right moment? How do you draw the line between just contemplating this idea of quitting design and then really moving into pursuing a different career?

Two things. How do you know when you draw the line and decide that enough is enough? And I have also an opinion about that. And that line is very subjectively placed, but I'm going to go into that later. So how do you know when you say it's time for something new for me? And what are the options for someone who has been like in the design industry for five years, 10 years, 20 years?

What comes after design? Are there any preferred career paths? Does it make sense to become a product manager? Although their role is also very challenged in the industry right now. Many companies are saying that, you know, you don't even need

need product managers anymore. Why would you need them? So are there any natural directions in which you could go beyond design or let's say the usual suspects of repurposing your professional path? Yeah. Oh my God. This is such a challenging question, in my opinion. So I think in general, it's hard for me to empathize because I'm one of those weird people that doesn't usually come close to burning out.

I was only once very close to burnout where I think I knew why it happened because I didn't get any results for like two years and it was very draining. To me, honestly, burnout is when you put every resource into it and you don't see any results and you realize and this is like this sad moment of realization that whatever I do doesn't make sense. It's not working and it's very sad and it's very hard to go through it because you feel like

you'd put everything you had and now you have no any more energy. You cannot even stand up from the bed. You tried everything and it's overwhelming. It's tiring. You don't have any more resources. This is what only happened to me when I was doing a startup. And right now I'm not in this place. Definitely it's been a while since I felt it. But I feel like

When this moment happens, and again, we all define burnout in different ways, but if one of those qualities, how you define burnout is being out of resource and completely not having energy for this, I would say it's just about either understanding this is not for you or you pivot. You find energy, you find resource, you find passion in what you're doing, you find those moments which you really like and hold on to them, just trying them out in a different context. For example, let's say you were trying to find work

for two years. This is real, even for senior designers sometimes right now. And you couldn't find any opportunity for you. And you're still interested in this. Maybe you know you have a lot to offer. It's just that the places you were trying to break into were not perfect match for you, essentially. If that's the case, and you still want to hold on to this industry because you know you have a lot to offer, you have the skills, maybe you need to find a different context. Maybe you want to start your own startup. Maybe you want to be the next Brian Chesky.

and build your own product-led or user-led environment, company, business. I remember the last time we had an economic crisis, there was a boom of, I think it was like community peer type of peer-to-peer kind of businesses, like Uber and Airbnb, where people decided to kind of remove the middleman and start directly interacting with small businesses and other, you know, there are more businesses and examples like this. But maybe you want to start your own and

enterprise. And like you said, Ioana, maybe there is some niche you're interested in that you can explore. Maybe you can apply the skills you've learned, user centricity, design thinking in other contexts. For example, like you said, maybe it could be like, I don't know, entertaining the idea of a local cosmetics business, bar, whatever, coffee place.

anything what you are excited about. But the design thinking beautifully is very universal and you can apply it anywhere. And I still feel like if you put the user at the center of it and you think about business, you will probably succeed at this. The problem is that you need to find another internal source of restress to really start this new venture. But you have to try it out. I think that if you feel like you cannot

find job right now and you really need to support your family, you need to find money, then of course you would have to do something else. So you have to do something meanwhile, while you are entertaining the idea of still investing in UX, just in different contexts, maybe making it as your side business, side gigs and see how it grows. See if you can start reinvesting your income into this new business and stuff like that. But yes, obviously it's only one way to go about it. I wonder if you have any more ideas that you can suggest our listeners.

Yeah, I don't know if I have ideas, but I have a method. Whenever I personally get into this place where I'm not sure what I want to do next, and I'm also scared to try something different or leave the stability or the certainty or the comfort of something, I tell myself I'm going to give it six months or one year. And I decide on a time frame that I'm going to experiment with something new. And then I do my best to sort of keep doors open.

Even let's say you're a designer. This is what I did with UiPath. I had a very nice job at UiPath. I loved it. I had a super strong relationship with the team. Everything was great. The product was great. I was working in the AI space. I was there for five years, so I was very comfortable by that point. And when I left for my job at Miro, which of course brought new uncertainties, I was in the middle of personal turmoil. So it was a tough decision to make.

But I realized that I'm just going to give myself six months, one year. Let's see how this feels. So my point is, give yourself some room to experiment. So maybe you don't have to quit the design industry forever, but give yourself one year to try a different avenue, to try a different project, to try a different world if you want. And then as you're doing it, observe it. Notice how you're feeling. Notice if you're happier. Notice if you feel relieved.

I was talking to someone who left a job recently and moved into another job and said that at no point I realized I needed to leave that job. I wasn't aware I had to leave that job. But now because I'm trying something else, I realize reflecting back that that's what I had to do. And so this is the kind of, let's say, approach that I feel we should all have. Treat everything as expected.

experiments, right? It's like what Facebook, what Meta does in their product philosophy. It's like what we do as Miro as well. We're doing experiments and learn from them. So you can treat it as nothing is final. Things are mostly reversible in our lives. You've made it in the design industry once. You can make it back, especially if you have some experience. It's

probably going to be easier. You can find a full-time role when you get back. It's not going to leave. It's going to be there. Give yourself the room to experiment and treat it as something limited instead of something final and that you can't come back from. And this is my piece of advice. And then in terms of what natural choices might be there, I think you should strongly reflect if your burnout has to do with design,

or has to do with the tech industry. Because it might just be that the tech industry is draining, not the design role or the PM role or being an engineer or being a lead. I don't know what. Maybe tech is draining in general because it's an industry that's exploded, then slow down, then exploded again. It's moving all the time. It's transforming. It's a landscape that's extremely unpredictable, like your own moving ground, shaky grounds all the time. Tech, I

I think, is what drains us more than design or PM or whatever. So I think you should strongly consider, do I want to pursue other roles in tech? What are you running from? Are you running from design or are you running from the tech drain? And if the answer is being a UX writer will not help me get rid of the tech drain, it's just going to change the scope of the tech brain, then maybe you have to consider completely different life and professional choices. And...

Everything comes down essentially. And I think this is my final idea to getting to know yourself, maybe therapy with help, maybe some career coaching exercises, maybe invest in one hour with a coach. I'm not a fan of coaches, but maybe you just need a framework.

Maybe you need even just a placeholder in your calendar, like spend one, two hours or one day or one week or even one month. Take time off to self-reflect and understand what's draining you. Is it tech? Is it design? Is it something personal maybe? And you're just projecting it into the professional space. What is the root cause of

why you feel exhausted and then address that root cause instead of just jumping from one thing to another, but avoiding the real problem. And this all comes down to your self-reflection, self-awareness skills. So work on those. And yeah, I think that's my key point. Every line that's drawn and it's final is not final.

keep that in mind. So everything is reversible. Luckily, in the professional space, I think we can reverse our choices, not to the status quo, but to something similar. So treat it as an experiment. And where you draw the line is something very subjective. And I think that

It has to do with just working on yourself. Do you have any closing thoughts? No, I just loved it. And I think I thought I was dancing around with the same ideas. I really love that you concluded it so beautifully that I think design is beautiful. It usually really fulfills, usually, but it really depends on the context. Sometimes the environment in which we are working is really overwhelming. Sometimes the market and that you want to pursue this specific tech role that pays well is very draining. And indeed, like I think the design skill set is very universal and you can apply it anywhere. You can also

find a small local business in which you can really blossom and become the best version of yourself and then really feel fulfilled. So really consider where do you want to apply. This is still your skill. If you learn design, you can apply it anywhere. It's a part of your portfolio. It's a part of your, let's say, baggage.

And with the AI right now, we will all have to adjust where we are and what we do. It's just a part of the process. So definitely it's this growth journey. And we will all experience it, no matter what seniority level you are, no matter what company you're working at. At some point, all of us will be dealing with this question. Maybe you'll be dealing with it right now a little bit more in a sharp way, in a more crisis way. But it's still a question that we will all have to go through. And so, yeah, reflection, reflection therapy. I love to back up what you're saying and recommend them as well as the closing note.

Alrighty. Thank you everyone for tuning in. Amphi, I just have to say, I love the idea of applying the design process to your career choices. So you've learned so many skills in the design industry as a designer, use them to find your purpose in life. Absolutely, yep.

On this very, very motivational and happy note, I just want to thank everyone for tuning in. If you want to support us, you can rate us on your platform of choice, Spotify, whatever, give us stars. And just so we know that all these conversations bring value and make sense. And you can submit ideas for future conversations to help us be relevant with the topics we're tackling and supporting.

See you on our social media platforms and on the next episodes. And the past episodes. You can check those out. Thank you. Bye-bye.