244. Reaction from Ukraine to Trump's inaugural address.
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Hello and welcome to this special episode of Battleground Ukraine with me Saul David and Patrick Bishop.

Well, today we're traveling through central Ukraine on a train. But before we give you our considered response to Trump's inauguration address, we're actually going to go back a few hours and listen to our immediate reaction as we watch the speech with a bunch of comrades in a restaurant in the center of the embattled city of Kharkiv, just 25 miles from the Russian border. Here we are in Kharkiv, about 30 miles from Dostoevsk.

My favorite city in the world, where I call the capital of freedom because everyone here believes in... We're going to face death in order to be free and here in this city we just listened to now President Trump's inaugural address and in the address he never mentioned Ukraine. He also did not mention Russia but he never mentioned Ukraine and I think everyone who was sitting here listening saying what's he gonna say about Ukraine? My first instinct

And based on the people I know who will be working for Trump, I think it's actually a good thing. It means that there's space to work. It means that he's not defining himself against Ukraine. Because a lot of the rhetoric during the campaign, when he was running against Biden, there was a lot of anti-Ukraine rhetoric at times. Not always, but at times. And the fact that he says very little about Ukraine means...

that this is an opportunity, this is a chance. Now, Russia also sees this as an opportunity, for sure. But I think this underscores the importance for those who support Ukraine. Every day, if you support Ukraine, if you think that in order for Ukraine to win, Ukraine needs American weapons and American permission, stuff that Joe Biden refused to send, then you have to realize you need to understand MAGA. You have to.

That's what is dominant now. But you can't understand it in a cynical way. You have to try to respect it and respect the sentiments that are here, that are being said. And I think we're seeing some Democrats saying this too. So I think President Zelensky, I think, definitely understands this. But for those who support Ukraine, you have to have a shift in your mindset. If you want Ukraine to win and you think you need American support for that,

You have to start to try to empathize and understand what is happening in Washington and why. So I think we have a... it could be worse. We have a canvas, like a blank canvas.

And now it's time to warn. There are going to be Ukrainians maybe listening to this who hoped, Joe, that they were going to say something about Ukraine, preferably supportive and denigratory towards Russia, or at least, you know, suggesting that they were going to deal with Russia in a robust fashion. But there wasn't any of that. I mean, you've explained that that's not necessarily a bad problem, but Ukrainians aren't going to see it like that, are they? You know, so if we were in Washington, Ukraine,

a city that's not often attacked maybe this should be a conversation but here we are we're in a restaurant in Harkiv and we were trying to find a place to watch it no one is watching this on the big screen there are people in this city in Harkiv 30,000 Russian who've been through such hell who could leave but they choose to be here no matter what they're committed to

staying free and to resisting. And we don't see anybody apoplectic. We are the only ones paying attention to this. The West is. I mean, I think everyone knows while we're watching it. And also, Ukraine is very tech savvy, so they're way too after the speech and they'll listen to the... Speech relevant. You put it through AI and we'll look for the... wherever you hear Ukraine. And so...

But this is actually a perfect example of it because here we are, we're here at the edge in a city that's so heavily bonded, any murder of Russian missiles could hit. And we're actually in a place that lost its windows. One year ago, New Year's Day 2024, the restaurant around the corner was hit by an Iranian drone, destroyed in the middle of the night. No one was there.

And they reopened two months later. And that's why I wanted to be in Kharkiv on Inauguration Day in America because when I talk to people close to Trump and Elon Musk and all that, I say, look at Kharkiv, this shows you. What Trump spoke about, the sense of recovering our sense of a great American sense of adventure and how America defeated fascism and communism. This is the continuation of that fight.

And so I saw in his speech the colors of that idea because for America to be great, truly, America has to be involved in the world. And America's greatest moments had been when precisely we've done so because we controlled our own affairs and then we were able to help others. And so what I see in this is that a potential to persuade people

And the last thing I was saying in this all was, Elon Musk last night, I woke up in the train this morning, my 15-hour train ride from Lviv, and I saw a tweet from Elon, and he said, make Europe great again. And everyone starts to mock him for that. A lot of people start to mock him for that. But I'm thinking, wait a second, this shows me that Magda and America First is actually open to caring about Europe.

what's happening over here, definitely. Okay? So how do we think about that? How do we use that to show, hey, wake up. This is everything that you're talking about. Ukrainians are willing to die for it. And anyone who's willing to die for freedom, I think you should listen to their voice. So, I mean, in the end, because we're all slightly mystified,

albeit seeing things from a European angle, that America doesn't understand the importance of standing shoulder to shoulder with Europe. Yes, you can argue about how much we're paying for our defense, and that's a good argument. It's an argument a lot of us, i.e. Europeans like Patrick and I, have been saying for a long time. Trump did a lot of good, actually, in 2019 when he reminded us how little most European states are paying for their defense. We've come up the game, not as much as we needed to. But what's interesting is that do you...

seem to be in your point about Musk just the first signs that MAGA or the movement that the Trump administration is getting the fact that actually with Europe it's going to be stronger in dealing with its inevitable enemies around the world Trump talked a lot in his address about dealing with its enemies with China yeah

And that's China, of course. China's paying attention to this war here, as we know. I mean, they're paying attention to all the developments with drone technology. But I think here's where, and I think what a lot of people who are not, certainly not in America, don't understand is that

And I think this might even explain why Trump didn't even touch Ukraine. It was pretty remarkable. I was dreading that he would say something that it was with that. And I'm glad, so I'm very glad he said nothing. But I think this is actually gets to the heart of the problem. And I've asked myself this many times, if I had never been to Ukraine, what would I believe about Ukraine? And, you know, you look at Americans who are after 20 years of failed wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, as they see it,

When they hear Washington talk about war, they say, "Come on, we did that, we believed you, and now we say no more." And really there is this deep, deep, deep skepticism. And the Russians have played this up very well with their propaganda. And so Ukraine has... It's a tough story to tell about Ukraine. Ukraine is not Iraq and not Afghanistan. And so I think this is a challenge for... Because actually,

If you look at when Elon says "Make Europe Great Again" I mean, Saul, you're from the UK and like, here we are in a war. I feel when there's no Russian missiles or drones in the city, it's dark inside. I feel safer. I walk down the street with my 8-ball Zirn in the total darkness

There's something about this culture that has created safe cities, clean cities. It's traditional but tolerant. This is exactly what the Americans are pining for, what Ilan and Trump and all the American people are pining for. It's actually here in Ukraine, but they can't see it because within Ukraine, there's not a culture war that helps them see it. And actually right now, a lot of representatives of Polish conservatives are invited.

Interesting, were they? Yeah, they're very close to Trump. Amazingly, the Poles are very close to Trump and to J.D. Vance. And they say, oh, the Poles believe in freedom. But the country on their story is actually fighting for freedom. It gets completely ignored. And although they're not the greatest mates with Ukraine, because there's historical differences, Lvov is one of the obvious ones, they do see the importance of stopping Russia. But not even so. I mean, the Poles, people who are now close to Trump,

very powerful people and media people some of them who i know they're quiet about ukraine they're basking in the attention they know that they're well respected in that world and they're they're not being honest about the fact that ukraine is protecting their flage but i think in time ukraine can show america that this is not our hacking afghanistan is totally different

And if you, I think another... You don't even have to send your troops. You just like back... No, I'm saying Ukrainians wouldn't do the fighting themselves. And it was America. It was the American elite. Everyone that Trump hates and the American people hate. The Democratic and Republican elite that took away Ukraine's weapons. Going from George H.W. Bush, former director of the CIA, and everything that they hate...

tried to stop Ukraine. Every time Ukraine tried to become more free, they tried to stop them or take away their weapons. Going back to the chicken cube speech in Georgia, it's going to be Bush and Obama and Richard Lugar and all that. So actually, it is the Washington swamp that has screwed this up. And I think now we can clearly say, looking at Biden's term, I mean, you know, every time Ukraine opened the window of opportunity, Biden squandered.

And so today I was talking to, I just arrived in Kharkiv after being gone for a while. I'm talking to friends and shopsters and I say, what do you think about tonight's speech? And one Ukrainian said to me in Kharkiv here, at least Trump is a leader and there's leadership that is needed. And then the hope is, okay, now let's hope the leader can do the right thing. And the fact that he said nothing about Ukraine

I mean, as a lot of people in the archives say, how are you doing? In translation, better than worse. I think that's what it says. Patrick, any thoughts on... You listened to most of the speech. I mean, he didn't reference Ukraine. Joe's saying that's not necessarily a bad thing, but what do you think about the rest of the chat? Was it what we were expecting? Yeah, I think everything had been pretty much flat out before, but I agree with Joe. I think it was wise to steer clear of a thorny subject like that where he's made bold...

at staples which I think everyone now agrees he's not going to be able to fulfill that promise of the 24-hour settlement. So that was a wise and politic thing to do. I thought the overall tone, there was some of that vindictiveness that marred the previous speech, which really set a dark tone for his presidency. And the whole kind of vibe was very upbeat, very positive, very inclusive, many references to plaques and hispaniacs.

And, you know, to the wider world. So I thought that, you know, it's very early days, but perhaps he has learned a lesson. Perhaps he has got wiser, a little bit wiser in the years out of office. So as always with Trump, let's wait and see. But yeah, I think people who were fearing the presidency might be feeling a little bit more confident today or a bit more reassured today.

Okay, we'll take a break there. Do join us in a moment when we'll be giving our considered response to the inauguration address as we trundle our way across central Ukraine.

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Hi, it's Cathy Kay here from The Rest Is Politics US. We felt at this time, as America is heading into the Trump administration, that we should look back on one of the darkest moments in recent American history. So we have done just that with a series on Trump's insurrection and his attempts back in 2020 to steal the election from Joe Biden.

There was an incitement of an insurrection. They stormed the Capitol. They literally have senators running for their lives. We break it down. We give a hour by hour of all the incidents, the fences smashing, the windows breaking, gunshots firing. Trump supporters smoking joints in statutory hall. Just imagine the bedlam. And incredibly, some of these people are going to be pardoned by Mr. Trump. And so January 6th, I've never told Katty Kay this, but January 6th is my birthday. Okay, tune in.

Yeah, that's not the only extraordinary thing about the date of January the 6th, however. I mean, this is why this story in this series is so important and so gripping because so many of these characters are coming back with us today and so much has been forgiven and swept under the carpet and

America decided in the election last year that they were going to reinstate Donald Trump. With that, there really is no better time to take a look at these events. To hear more, just search the Restless Politics US, wherever you get your podcasts. Hear a clip from this miniseries at the end of this week's episode. Well, we've now had a night to sleep on it, if you want to put it like that, Saul. And I think our mood's still pretty positive, isn't it?

It is. I mean, there's been some hysterical reaction, actually, to the fact that Trump didn't specifically mention Ukraine in his inaugural address. I mean, he referred to it in a roundabout way. And some Western commentators have leapt on this. And in particular, the reference to Trump referring to Biden's unlimited spending on protecting Ukraine.

other countries' borders when he wasn't prepared to do the same with his own, which of course is a reference to protecting immigrants from coming in across the Mexican-US border, Patrick. But that was a point, in my view, that he was making really to underline the lack of restriction of foreign immigrants, wasn't it, rather than an indication that he had absolutely no time for support for Ukraine?

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right, Saul. I think it was just another stick to beat the outgoing administration with something he did a lot of. It's pretty churlish, actually. He never actually mentioned Biden at all by name in the entire address. But, you know, what I really thought was the outstanding thing was this

idea that he really means it about making America great again. This is going to be a golden age for America. And I think that is very good news for Ukraine, because the way I see it, when he says American decline is over, this is going to be a new age of greatness for America. Anyone who attempts to thwart that ambition, I think, is going to be in Trump's

cross hairs, something I don't think anyone would actually want to be, which puts Putin really on the spot, doesn't it? Yeah, for sure. I mean, the main thrust of his foreign policy references were certainly directed against China and Iran. And he was also talking about some of the potential economic costs that those countries would play. But he specifically said, just carrying on your point, Patrick, that his proudest legacy would be

to be a peacemaker and unifier and going on to proclaim that he would measure success not only by the battles we win but also by the wars we end.

as well as the wars we never get into. Well, the wars we end, of course, is Ukraine. Now, the big question is how they're going to do that, the extent to which they're going to twist Ukraine's arm to accept terms that, you know, frankly, are just going to mean a cessation of hostilities rather than long-term security guarantees. But we don't know yet. And it's completely impractical to look at his speech yesterday

and conclude that the tap of funding for Ukraine's war are going to be turned off? Yeah, no, I certainly didn't see anything there that suggested that. And indeed, you know, on the military front,

There's certainly no question or hint that there are going to be big economies in the defence budget. And indeed, he actually specifically says, like in 2017, we will again build the strongest military the world has ever seen. So that suggests to me that there'll be plenty, if he wants to,

carry on giving Ukraine the wherewithal to fight its war. There'll be plenty in the inventory for them to spare, for them to hand over to Ukraine. So I would have thought that was, again, pretty welcome news in Kiev. And we have actually got a bit of reaction from President Zelensky already, haven't we? We have. And, you know, he wasn't too dismayed. I mean, you know, admittedly, this is for public consumption. But he said specifically,

after congratulating Trump on his re-inauguration, he said, President Trump is always decisive and the peace through strength policy he announced provides an opportunity to strengthen American leadership and achieve a long-term and just peace, which is a top priority. So he said something similar before, but he certainly hasn't taken the lack of Ukraine's being mentioned in the inauguration speech as any different to what he's obviously heard from Trump's own mouth when they met recently.

Yeah, so we haven't yet heard from Moscow, nothing from Putin. I think he's bound to say something fairly soon, one would have thought. But I think they probably assumed that this was coming and had a pretty good idea of what would be said. And I think there's nothing there for them to take comfort from. And there's quite a lot for them to be quite wary of, particularly this notion, I think, that we've both discussed,

agree is really the big message come out of here that America is going to get its way in the world

Trump's vision is going to be realized. He's only got four years to do it. He's an old man in a hurry. He can't stand again. And at his age, he's pretty much the same age that Biden was when he took over. He can't afford to hang around. So anyone who gets in his way, I think, is in for a tough time. Yeah. And finally, just to reiterate the point that Joe Lindsley made, which you heard earlier in this podcast,

which is, you know, and he after all is someone who understands the MAGA mind. I mean, what makes Joe so unique as a commentator is he understands Ukraine. He's lived there for the last three or four years. But he also came from that MAGA world. He understands how they operate. And his point...

last night and immediately seeing the speech was not dismayed that there was no mention for Ukraine. He was actually quite cheered because his point is it allows Trump and his advisors freedom of maneuver. They're not backing themselves into a corner by making any more unnecessary problems like finishing it in a day. We know it's going to take a few months, of course, but this is where the work starts. Kellogg, we imagine, will be coming over to Ukraine in the not too distant future and things will become a little bit clearer then.

Well, that's it from us for now. Do stay tuned. We've got lots of fascinating stuff to come. Goodbye.

Here is that clip from our miniseries on Trump's insurrection. And these senators are being kind of ushered out through a very narrow corridor. And one of them says we were 20 feet away from the rioters. If the rioters had just looked the other way and seen that a whole bunch of senators were coming out, who knows what would have happened? Who knows what could have happened to Mike Pence? And I think it is important to point out that Donald Trump was getting these reports and did not care.

The Senate has been evacuated at 2:18 PM. Nancy Pelosi is also pulled out of her chair by the Capitol Police and taken off the podium and taken to a safe location at Fort McNair in Southwest Washington. She originally tried to stay. She didn't want to leave the building, but because of security, she had to get out of there.

One of the Democratic members of the Congress at this point, as they realize that the rioters are starting to breach their area, one of the members, Democratic members of the Congress, yells down to the Republicans, this is because of you. And the members are getting texts. This is how they know that things are bad, because they're getting texts from their family saying, what are you doing there? Why haven't you left? Are you safe?

They haven't got a television. They're not watching it. They're trying to get on with the business of the day. I mean, it's surreal. I keep thinking how surreal it was that inside the chambers, they're trying to do business as usual. And feet away, the rioters are there saying that they want to have some of these people hung and that they want to overturn the election result. So then a few minutes after that, the House floor is evacuated and

literally in front of the rioters. The police manage again to secure a very narrow passageway through the rioters to get them out. And one member afterwards says, I could look in the eyes of those officers and I saw the fear. They knew that the officers were outnumbered. To hear more, search The Rest Is Politics US wherever you get your podcasts.