247. From the Pearl of the Black Sea to the Embattled city of the East.
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Day two of the battleground trip to Ukraine. We're still in Odessa. We arrived yesterday. Had a rather lovely evening, actually, in a very traditional way.

Ukrainian restaurants suggested by Julius and it's just as what he did because I don't think we'd have found our way in there otherwise. They look like they're in fancy dress which I suppose is probably just traditional Ukrainian costume. Is that right? Yeah, exactly. They're in traditional Ukrainian costume which is kind of interesting in and of itself in Odessa because of course this is traditionally quite a Russian...

speaking and also quite a sort of high culture town. So, you know, these guys, the restaurants were dressed up in what was effectively peasant Ukrainian garb. And that's

And that's quite important, isn't it? Because as Julius was telling us yesterday, one of the difficulties from transitioning, particularly for the educated classes away from Russian, is that that was seen as a kind of sign of sophistication, wasn't it? And now, of course, everyone's determined that the Russian language will slowly be phased out. Although I have to say, it's been tremendously useful for us to have Julius here speaking pretty fluent Russian. You say you're not fluent, but you've made yourself...

understood by pretty much everyone we've spoken to and it's been a great help to us Patrick we're going to struggle a bit I think when we lose Julius after Kharkiv aren't we? Indeed yeah but we'll be heading to Kiev where I hope there'll be a few more English speakers on the ground but yeah at the moment we're extremely grateful for

to have Julius here. Not just for his linguistics, but his all-round knowledge and observations and deep knowledge, it has to be said, of this place, including this city. You've been here before, haven't you, Julius? Tell us about what you've seen change since the war began. I'm glad this is audio, not video, because I'm beginning to blush now.

What have I seen since the war began? I've been here about five times in total and I think this is my third trip since the war began. It's very interesting. It was very much a Russophone city. It was a sort of a fancy city for want of a better word. It was quite elite, elite oriented, elitist in some ways. And, you know, back in 2014, Russia,

When the war initially started, there was a big set to here between the pro-Ukrainians and the pro-Russians and dozens of people died in that incident. There was a fire broke out and many of the Russia supporters died.

died. And since then, steadily, the city has been moving towards more sympathy towards Ukraine. Back then, it really was divided. And that's accelerated since 2022. One way that that is manifest is in the use of language, which again is complicated because it's not totally straightforward to learn a second language, especially if you're older and Ukrainian is significantly different from Russian. A couple of little sort of

anecdotes here. The first one is that I spoke to a junior doctor and he told me a very revealing story. He said, you know, us doctors always spoke Russian. We wouldn't dream of speaking Ukrainian. And one day I went into work and I said, you know, look what the Russians are doing to us. Surely it's time that we start speaking Ukrainian. And he said, my colleagues, older colleagues looked at me in absolute horror and said, we're doctors. We don't speak Ukrainian. We speak Russian. Ukrainian is a peasant language.

Now, that was a few years ago now, and things have begun to change. But the second little thing happened actually today. I was talking to a lady, and she said, I asked her, she was clearly very, very angry with Putin and very angry with Russia, and I asked her about this language issue. And I said to her, you know, you are a Russian speaker. And she said, I'm going to clarify this.

Russian, the language, is not the language of the Russians. It's the language of the Russian speakers. And I'm not a Russian, but I am a Russian speaker. So she made this very sort of clear point that just because I'm speaking Russian does not mean I have any sympathy whatsoever with either Russia or Putin or even the Russian people, which I thought was quite interesting.

Yeah, I mean, we had a fascinating day today. I mean, this was after we partied company with Julius, but we set out this morning to have a look at some of the sites. We were at the opera yesterday, believe it or not. I mean, extraordinary performance of Puccini, which I think we mentioned yesterday evening. Today, we walked past the opera house to get to one of the great sites in Odessa, and that, of course, is Potemkin Steps. But as we were heading towards the steps, we passed a plinth that Julius assures us, until quite recently, would have

held the statue of Catherine the Great who of course is the founder of Odessa and the reason it's been taken down is because she's seen as a symbol of Russian imperialism Putin's made no bones about the fact that she's one of his great heroes so that statue had to go and Potemkin's statue which I think probably stands at the top of his steps has been covered up possibly for reasons of

because that bit of the port has been hit by strikes. You can see that a lot of the buildings are boarded up, so either they've actually been hit or they're expecting to be. But the steps themselves are still wonderfully intact, and it is one of the great sights of Odessa. So it was great to take a few pictures, which we'll post anon when we get the chance on social media. And then we moved on to have a rather lovely lunch, Patrick. Yeah, this was in a lovely, atmospheric, cosy garden.

wood panelled, wood floored, had a very rustic feel to it, and it's a cafe restaurant down very near to the stairs, to the Potemkin stairs. I suppose what it told us really was that, you know, life does go on. People, as we were getting the message constantly, want to keep life as normal as possible. And it's an indication of how sophisticated this city is. It's got a strong association with the great Russian writer

Gogol, or maybe I should say in these circumstances, writer in Russian, Gogol. Gogol was indeed Russian though, wasn't he? So it's not as if there's been a complete sort of cultural cleansing of all things Russian. Indeed, you know, there were statues around the place to old Russian administrators, Voroncev, there's a big statue.

Pushkin we saw. Pushkin as well, yeah. So it's selective. I think it's people who are associated with the current regime. So it's not like some dreadful Maoist cultural revolution. It's selective and the point is

is made well and I think in most cases from my perspective anyway with good reason. One of the things we wanted to do of course since we entered Ukraine is get a little bit of a sense of what the public are thinking because we're here to coincide with the inauguration of Trump on Monday that's in two days time

And although it's quite clear that there's going to be no great movement in diplomatic terms, immediately there may be some indication of the direction of travel of the Trump administration. So we want to get a little bit of an early sense of what the people are thinking, whether they're very war-weary and they'd welcome peace. But we did approach, having moved on from lunch, to the rather wonderful New Market. It's a very old market, but it's called the New Market in Odessa, another of the great cities.

architectural sites in the city and while we were there we tried to speak to a lady who spoke quite good English actually serving at one of the stalls about what her feelings were in relation to the war and she just couldn't bring herself to talk to us she said it's just too upsetting you know and tears were springing to her eyes so we don't know what she was going to say but clearly that was a very obvious sign of the way war is affecting you know everyone here even though since we've arrived there's been very little in the sign in terms of

and bombs because Odessa's mercifully seems to not be under attack, at least at the moment. I mean, for me, visiting the market, I've been there two or three times before. I was a little upset to see that the usual cafe that I go to just to sort of check in,

with the same people again and again has closed. And I asked another of the storeholders, I was a bit concerned that something might have happened to them. And she said, no, no, it's fine. They've just moved their cafe into the center of the city because they'll get better custom there. I mean, the market is, as you guys also saw, it's beautiful and it's also quite...

lively and there's a lot going on and there's you know a lot of produce and the sort of chunks of different types of pork for sale lots of seafood I actually bought myself a tiny pot of caviar which is still quite expensive but I just love it too much not to do that and then I wandered outside the the back to the sort of the uncovered part of the market or the less covered part of the market sort of newer part

talk to a couple of people there and there was one older lady who was running a small store for toiletries and that kind of thing and we ended up having a chat. Initially she was a little bit shy, she said her name was Lila. I asked her how old she was and she said old enough.

I didn't ask her what meant for what she was old enough but she was probably in her early 70s and we began to chat a little bit and she soon became very emotional and very upset and she said you know you just can't imagine what it's like to live with all these explosions you never know when you're going to get a night's sleep she said you know the war's been going on for so long now she referenced the attack this morning in Kiev which killed several people an overnight attack and she

And she wasn't so much teary as sort of angry and agitated. And she said, you know, why is it that the whole world united together cannot stop one man? And I said, I assume you mean Putin. And she said, yes, exactly. You know, why can't we just stop this one monster between us somehow? I also asked her about Trump. And I said, you know, what do you think is going to happen with Trump?

And she said, she sort of hesitated. And then she said, look, I just don't know what to believe. She said, I read the paper every day. And one day it says that Trump is for Ukraine. And the next day it says that Trump is against Ukraine. One day it says that Trump will be good for Ukraine. The next day it says it will be awful for Ukraine. I mean, we just have to hope, but we don't know. So it was good to talk to her and get a little bit of a...

Right, well we're just getting our act together before we head off to the railway station to get the night.

train to Kharkiv will be arriving tomorrow morning on the eve of the Trump inauguration. Yeah, and it's a bit of a first for us, Patrick, of course, isn't it? I don't know if listeners will be surprised or not to hear we're heading that far east. Julius has assured us that, you know, it's a big city and we'll be relatively safe. But of course, any avid watchers of the war will know that Kharkiv is relatively close to the Russian border. I think about 40 miles away. Is that correct?

Is that correct, Julius? That sounds about right, yeah. And therefore, it has been under quite heavy attack, certainly over the last six months, since the successful Ukrainian strikes against ammunition depots and command centers and various other military outposts over the last few months.

Those glide bombs in particular which were being used against Kharkiv have lessened in severity but of course it is still a place where explosions probably happen on a fairly regular basis. So Julius it's our first time in Kharkiv, it's the furthest east we've gone as the podcast, relatively close to the Russian border. What sort of threat faces us there?

There's a sort of a psychological element to it and there's a statistical element to it. And if you look at it statistically, you know, in a city with one or two million people, with a couple of people dying a day even, you're probably statistically safe.

But of course, when you're trying to live a normal life and something just appears out of the sky and kills somebody close to you or next to you or it's in the next street or you hear about it, it's psychologically very wearing. And there's that strange sort of disconnect between the two where the rational side of your brain is telling you, you know what, the chances of me actually dying today are fairly small.

But nevertheless, that constant presence of that fear does wear you down. And as a journalist, you have another added risk, which is that the Russians sometimes specialize in these double-tap attacks. So what they'll do is they'll hit a certain point. They'll wait a couple of hours. The rescue teams will turn up, the firemen, the ambulance, the police, and...

the journalists and then they'll hit it again. So it's a bit difficult to know how to deal with that as a journalist. Do you not respond? Do you wait a bit and then respond? Or do you just live with the chances? And the last time that happened to me, I was with Ascold and we decided to go there regardless, although we were aware there was a very vague risk threat. And then the siren came on and then we had an explosion, which wasn't particularly close. And you realize that

That is part of operating every day in the city. But of course, you know, I was there for a few days. These firemen do this day in, day out, and they don't get the chance of turning around and saying, "Sorry, we're not going to respond to this incident. They just have to do it." And there was this one awfully emotional scene where a father and son fireman team had been deployed, and they were putting out two fires at just a couple of streets apart, and there was a double tap, and the double tap killed the father.

and they had to tell the son, who was two streets away, that his father had just been killed in that second attack. So for those people, it's very, very real, the threat. Great stuff. Okay, we're going to sign off. We'll probably report a little bit on the train journey. We're all looking forward to it. Overnight sleeper to Kharkiv, and we'll be leaving in about an hour.

Well, we're still on the train. It's morning, a grey morning, and the train's just halted at what seems to be a suburban station on the outskirts of Kharkiv. It doesn't seem to be that cold. We haven't seen any snow on the way here. So, yeah, we're looking forward to an interesting day. Got lots of interesting people lined up. We're going to be taking the mood and talking to some soldiers later on. Yeah, it's been another fascinating experience on Ukrainian railways, hasn't it, Patrick? Yeah.

We're traveling in style, I suppose you could say, in first class, just two of us to a carriage, Patrick and I sharing one, James next door, Kim and Julius next door to that. So we had a rather jolly evening, actually, having a few drinks and chewing the fat, discussing what was to come as the train rattled relatively slowly through the flatlands, through the steps of central Ukraine.

Not a lot to see when we did look out this morning. Just completely flat territory. The odd village not looking in great nick in terms of conditions. No sign of war damage, of course, because we're a little bit too far away from the front line, although we're getting steadily closer. Patrick, what do we hope to achieve in Kharkiv? Well, I think we chose Kharkiv because obviously it's the focus of the eastern front, if you like. It's the second biggest city in Ukraine and the nearest one to where the action is. But on two fronts,

notably Kursk, it's just over there, very close to the Russian border and very close to the salient that the Ukrainians have established in Kursk Oblast and it's to the north of Donetsk so it's kind of, you feel you're in the zone, literally. So I think people's emotions and people's observations are going to be

much sharper really than they were than what we were getting in Odessa and indeed in Kiev which can feel quite remote from the action but I think this is the place to be for this

swearing in of Donald Trump in whose hands I think we're all agreed the fate of Ukraine really lies. Yeah it's going to be very interesting as you say Patrick getting some kind of sense from the people who've been living really effectively under siege right at the start of the war Kharkiv was surrounded before the Ukrainians pushed the Russian forces back and of course in the last few months it's been under pretty much daily attack air attack it's only 40 miles from the

Russian frontier. So it will be very interesting to sort of hear how steadfast people are here, or on the other hand, how war weary they are. So more of that and on.

Well, we arrived in Kharkiv railway station on the overnight sleeper from Odessa about an hour ago and it's quite a weird feeling actually being here. You can talk about the theory of coming this close to the Russian border, in fact Russian lines because there's a little enclave inside northern Kharkiv in theory but when you're actually in practice and you realize you're not a million miles away from the fighting it is a bit weird.

The city, of course, has come under intense bombardment last spring, the spring and summer of 2024. That's lessened certainly now, but it is also quite alarming given that during the time we were in Odessa, we didn't hear a single air raid siren. Well, we haven't been here very long, of course, when the air raid sirens go on.

And Julius, who's been traveling with us so far, Julius Strauss tells us very helpfully, well, of course, you know, we're so close, the air raid sirens are probably going to go off after an explosion actually takes place. So, yeah, you're a tiny little bit on edge. But, you know, that's what the population are living under and have been for the last couple of years, really. So it is very interesting for us, having covered the water, just get a little bit of a taste of it. But it does put you on edge a little bit.

little bit, doesn't it, James? James, our producer, is now going to say a few words. Patrick's out, actually, at Mass. He's gone to pray for an hour or so while we stay in the hotel. Yeah, that's right. There is a marked difference, definitely, between Odessa and here. You can even, sort of architecturally, and just the presence of more troops, more soldiers, more people on leave, there's more military uniforms, there's more checkpoints.

but it's definitely a different feel. I mean, the train took us, what's it, 14, 15 hours. So you're traveling across the length of this country and it's much more Soviet here. There's also more scars of war. On the taxi to the hotel, you could see

damaged buildings you can see where impacts have been made on the building chunks blown out and it does put you on edge a bit more i have to say there is much more of a sense of this is where the war is and the city's quiet too i mean not many people on the streets it's a sunday weekend you would have thought maybe one or two people are out out and about strolling going to church like patrick and julius but but in actual fact there aren't many people on the streets i mean when we came

out of the railway station. There were a few people there, of course, because the train had just come in. But generally speaking, if you look out, and as we were driving along in the taxi, not many people around. As James says, much more of a military presence, kind of slightly sinister military presence in the sense that they're probably looking for, I don't know, Russian spies, possibly. They might even be trying to intercept young Ukrainians who haven't signed up. A lot of that's going on in this

part of the world so we were told by Joe Lindsley who we're going to be meeting later tonight so we're just to give listeners a quick idea what's happening next we've got various meetings lined up with the spokesman for the Cartier brigade which is the brigade that we spoke about a couple of weeks ago in fact Ascol spoke about saying they were trying new things very much a new modern type of fighting with a different way of looking after soldiers from the old

Soviet approach. So that's going to be very interesting. And then we've got a full day tomorrow and then we head out to Kiev early the following day. So interesting times ahead. And I'm looking forward to getting out and about, to be truthful, James. You know, bombs and missiles notwithstanding. What about you? Yeah, I think...

You need to get out and about and see what life's like, see what people are saying. You know, people live here, have done since the start of the war, and it was good to get a sense of what their feeling of the war is. Okay, that's it for now. We'll hook up with Patrick for lunch at a place recommended by Joe Lindsley in about an hour or so, and we'll be talking more later. ♪

How has the war tested the faith of the congregation here at the Church of the Ascension? The war is our test every day. Every day and every situation we live. How has it tested the faith of the congregation? Here we see what seems to be an example of evil, of sheer evil coming from

the Russians. How has that tested the belief of the congregation? So I was trying to at length to explain to him what your question was and he's saying that this test is still happening, this war is still going on. So he's saying that there isn't an answer here to your question because it's still the test is one that the faithful are undergoing. Yeah.

I see this conflict in very simple black and white terms. You know, it seems to me to be a struggle essentially between evil and good. One of the questions I was asking myself was, how does your congregation react to the sort of daily stresses, the daily fear of the bombardments and the proximity of the enemy and the front lines? First of all, only 20% of the operationaries stays in Kharkiv. 80% left.

To Europe, to Western Ukraine, to the US, I know a few families in Canada, and for now we have only 20%. In Kharkiv we have five parishes, Roman Catholic, because we have here also Greek Catholic Cathedral, and I think Byzantine Catholic, Eastern Rite Parish.

We have a good context for them. No, we're trying to support people. We have social center of social support. It's called St. Elizabeth of Hungary. If you look at the church or the cathedral, it's on the right side. Today's Sunday is closed, but you...

Every day in the morning you can see crowds of people. They come in mostly for food, for some support, material things, but also sometimes they wish to... We have Holy Mass at 7:30 in the morning and they come. They enter church to listen to how it looks like. It was mostly here. The population is Orthodox, not Catholic.

We're trying to explain them, trying to support. Sometimes the questions are very tough. Where is your God? What's going on here? It's not easy. We're trying to explain that God is with us. He's here, but we have to be strong. Maybe he wishes the change of heart of Ukrainians. We do not know. I mean, what's your personal view of Putin's motivations? Because it seems to me that there's a difference between very bad people and people who are just evil.

And it seems to be that he falls into that category of evil. We must have asked yourself that question, why is he doing this?

I think it's a kind of obsession, possession of evil. He calls himself a believer, Orthodox, making sign of the cross, visiting the churches, Orthodox churches in Moscow on their holidays. But what he, his activity is Antichrist. I think it's real evil. And you know, a generation of these officers of KGB, the rules in Moscow and Russia, and

It was short-term when Yeltsin was president. Everybody ordered to, Russia will change, we will develop more democracy, but it stopped in the year 2000 when Putin came. There's a stagnation. I know Russian people, we don't have contact because, you know, it's our enemy, but before the beginning of war in 2022, we have contact since people, I think 60% Russian people

People, they say that we do not support putting this connection of Donbass, of Crimea, but we are afraid. We have businesses, we have jobs. If I say something against Crimea,

Putin or the government, the consequences may be awful for me and for my family. I'm afraid. They live in fear inside their hearts. I think mostly, 60%. But there is a part of Russian people

who support this kind of chauvinism because of the years of propaganda of the hipster in their heads. Because you can't, no critics, no analysis of what's going on. They only repeat what their propaganda says. It was watching only the TV, this news, the political shows from Mustang, you know, Moscow.

and they're not critical at all. What psychological and spiritual damage has the war done to your congregation? I worked here in Kharkiv from 2018, but from 2021 I started my postgraduate studies. The bishop asked me to make a degree in canon law.

because I'm working in diocesan courier here. I'm a priest. I have a higher education. I studied in Poland. I come from Ukraine. I'm a Ukrainian citizen. And this canon law, it's the University of Cardinal Stefan Lushinsky in Warsaw. So I came for examination session, I think. It was 22 days before full-scale entry of Russia. It was the 22nd of February. And when the 23rd

Everything was okay, but on the 24th in the morning I came to this election hall. My colleagues asked me, "Did your father watch the news today?" I said, "No, he didn't." But watching the telephone, look what's going on, it's war. And I tried to contact Bishop a few times, but only in the evening he phoned me and said, "You have to stay in Poland because here it's going on something awful."

It's impossible physically to reach Kharkiv from Poland. So everybody is trying to escape from Kharkiv.

So I stayed for four months. I studied there in Poland at the Diocese of Lomza, in northeastern Poland. And I lived, Bishop invited me to stay, to live at parish, and I celebrated Holy Mass at 7 a.m. in the morning. After we had breakfast, after coffee with pastor or parish priest, and after I worked as an interpreter in Center of Social Support or something like that, because it

crowds of Ukrainian refugees came searching for jobs, for some financial support, and I was like an interpreter trying to fulfill the necessary forms and to contact with these people. And also I studied in Warsaw from time to time. I went to visit the university to have exams, and I returned to Kharkiv. It was 18th of June.

It was an empty city, totally empty. It was Saturday, but it was empty streets, no cars, no pedestrians, nobody. And every day at 23:11 it was an air alarm and after explosions, huge explosions, it was some kind of rockets.

Iskander or something like that. It was awful. And I remember that first week, all the time when this attack started, I was outside the room with my phone looking for news where the rocket, where the explosion was in part of the city. And I had inner protest. Why? Somebody who's not knowing me at all. Am I bad? Am I good? Somebody wishes...

to kill me. I'll be dead. Why? It is stupid. It's not logical. It's only to kill people. And it was the first month. It was very tough and difficult. And I know a priest from abroad. I think that priest was from Croatia and he came with some humanitarian aid. And the evening when there were explosions, he started crying like a child, like a baby. It was panic. It's not...

Now we can distinguish the sound of explosion. Is it rocket? Is it bomb? It is SS-300 or something else. And people, even kids know what it was. It was SS-300. For last month, we had less attacks on Kharkiv. The last one, huge attack, was at 25th, 6 o'clock in the morning. And which day was it? Yeah.

It started from 6:00. I was in my bed and there's my colleague, he is director of Caritas, this charity foundation of the Vojche. He lives above, on the next stage. And it was boom! Maybe something fell down in his womb, but then again, boom! And the third time was such a strong explosion. It was the last time. Yesterday I celebrated Holy Mass at 6:00 p.m. at the church.

And I started, me and ministrants entering the altar, and then I heard a huge, somebody told it was not in Harku, but somewhere near the city. How long do you think, or this is a silly question really, but do you think this generation of people will ever recover from the experience? If the war ended tomorrow, would they ever recover in their lifetimes, you think, from the trauma that's been inflicted on them in these years? I think...

The generation and young people and kids, they will need psychological support. Because neurosis, I think, me personally, I have this neurosis. I was in Warsaw last time, it was in December, and I live near the university, there is a retreat center.

In the evening I can't sleep, it was 11:00 p.m. and something was wrong. There is no air alarm. I can't sleep without this. It's normal. There was a group of kids and they were very noisy and something fell down and I said, "Oh, it's some kind of instinct. It's not normal."

Do you believe as a priest that there will be some divine justice visited on Putin? God will judge Putin in this life, in his life here on Earth? I think, I hope, I think so. We hope here, everybody, not everybody, but we as priests, we have our anticipations that Donald Trump will change something.

Everybody is talking about this. He's a controversial person, but I think he has such power in him to stop this, to change something. Maybe negotiations, but we don't know how. And I hope this year will be the last year of war. So in a way, it might be that God could be working through Donald Trump, do you think, in these processes? Yes, why not?

Everything is possible for God. There are no closed things or problems that God has no potential to rule and to fix. That's an interesting thought. I think we're all hoping for that. Thanks for the people of the UK for their support, the Prime Ministers. It's true that in Britain everyone is pro-Ukraine. I never hear anyone putting me in the Russia case.

And I think it's probably true in most of Europe as well. You know, it's certainly in France when I go to France, what I hear there. So you do have a vast number of people in the world who want Ukraine to survive, to prosper, to do well, for some good to come out of this. You know, I think there's one way of looking at it, which is that it's really accelerated the whole business of creating a modern, united Ukraine, which has good values at its core.

Oh