250. The Khartiia Brigade and Kharkiv's evolution.
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Hello and welcome to Battleground. Well, coming up is another one of our bonus episodes recorded on the ground in Ukraine's embattled eastern city of Kharkiv. So we're thawing out or trying to thaw out in a restaurant recommended to us by the spokesman of the Katya Brigade, Volodymyr, who we're meeting shortly for lunch, a little bit of a chat.

about the brigade. It was bitterly cold, I have to say, as we mentioned probably in our last little segment up there. So it's nice to finally warm up. We couldn't get a taxi. We were literally at the edge of northern Kharkiv. We couldn't get a taxi, try as we might. But we eventually got a bus and we were doubly delighted to find that the bus was free.

and he was heading in roughly the right direction Patrick eagle-eyed spotted the exact bus we needed so we jumped off one and got onto another and here we are. So one of the fascinating things that we've been discussing over the last few months on the podcast is the issue of rotation out of the line and people getting enough leave and

We've already got an indication from Asgol that that's something that the Cartier Brigade take very seriously. Can you give us a sense of how often people are likely to get leave in any given period? So that would really depend on the type of the job that the person is doing and how irreplaceable he or she is. However, overall the Brigade makes a special emphasis on the fact that people need to rest and people need to take leaves and they come under regularly.

gets reports from our S1, which is personnel section, about which people or which units are lagging in that sense. And there are special efforts like rotating some of the units out so that their guys can take leave. And most of the guys are able to go on leave, which is at least two weeks once you spend at least six months in the unit.

We were talking earlier about the issue of resupply, how long the guys are actually spending in the front line. Give us something in the broadest sense without going into too much detail. Give us some kind of sense of the experience of the front line guys. I mean, how long are they up there? What are conditions like for them? And how do you resupply them when they're there? Well, we realized that one of the most dangerous location and time on the front line is actually...

when we're changing troops and bringing in the resupplies because battlefield is very transparent and obviously the enemy knows our locations and follows us and is able to track

our movement from 5-10 kilometers behind enemy lines just as well as we do. So any resupply run or bringing in new personnel and then taking out the previous group is a huge risk even when we're talking about armor. So we try to make sure that those rotations are

as non-frequent, as rare as possible, which means obviously that guys need to spend longer time in the trenches. However, as long as they feel that they're well taken care of, which is they're supplied with necessary ammo, batteries for radios, power banks, water, food, etc., which we bring in using night drones, like drones,

larger bomber drones which mostly are used to remotely mine or bomb enemy positions. However, in those cases they deliver packs. We call it the Uber delivery. So they bring in stuff directly to the trench or to a dugout. And so we do that through unmanned ground vehicles and larger, primarily agricultural type

UAVs that are able to carry 10 to 12 kilos and if we're talking about ground vehicles those could carry up to a hundred or more kilos of stuff on them. So we were just wandering around today, Vladimir, and we could feel the chill, you know, cutting through our clothes and we were imagining what it must be like for some of the guys

on the front line in these dugouts? How are they keeping warm? I mean, one of our thoughts was if you're using any kind of artificial warmth, then you're leaving some kind of heat signature. Is that an issue? I mean, how do they stay warm in the front line? Well, this all comes down to preparation and training. And I remember that

Already as early as in late July our commander during some of the briefings and planning sessions started giving orders so that units start getting ready for winter. So we started mid-summer making sure that our positions are well equipped, that we have enough generators, that we have

enough hand warmers, leg warmers, and those are distributed, that people get enough vitamins from the medicals. So just all of that stuff, making sure that all of the units have their warm clothes and winter kit available. So just a number of those working with the environment with how the dugout is set.

working with people so that they are prepared, making sure that everything inside... So basically as long as you are able to get warm food and you minimize losses of warmth through the way the dugout is set up, how it's insulated and how well you're dressed, then you can survive those conditions pretty easily.

I've just been reading some accounts of the Second World War of soldiers fighting in... American soldiers fighting in the Ardennes in 1944.

famously cold conditions, a lot of snow on the ground, freezing. A lot of people caught trench foot, as they call it. Every army knows about the issue of trench feet, where your feet are too cold and too damp for too long, and you'll be hospitalized. You lose a fighting man as a result of it. You're describing about all the precautions that the Cartier Brigade is taking so that that doesn't happen. Does that mean that you're

cases of frostbite, trench foot, something similar are almost eliminated entirely? Obviously, you cannot totally forget about the human factor. Sometimes people just forget or don't do the right stuff. And obviously, that results in some of the conditions that you described. However, most of the commanders and most of the sergeants, because that's the sergeant's job primarily to make sure that

The soldiers are well fed, well trained and well equipped. So as long as there is a good sergeant and a good commander and a good leader who is able to enforce this type of discipline, then those risks and those cases are really brought down to a minimum.

Patrick, this just reminds me of, you know, I was talking about the Ardennes in 1944. Of course, there was a similar issue, wasn't there, in the Falklands in 1982, when the Marines in particular marched all across the island in some pretty brutal conditions, and you went with them, didn't you? So, was trench foot a problem in those days? Yeah, it absolutely was, and everyone was making the same point, though. You'd

You associate Trenchfoot very much with the First World War, with the Western Front, and here it was again in 1982 being a big issue. And even though it doesn't sound like it's terribly serious condition, it is, as you rightly say, enough to take a man out of combat, has to go back to one of the ships, and that's him really done for the rest of the tour.

And it did impact on numbers. Not I can't remember what they precisely were, but it was a definite issue. Just one last comment on that. I mean, what's so fascinating about hearing Vladimir talking about the precautions taken by the Cartier Brigade is that when you're in a fixed position like that, as long as you do things properly, you can, you know, there's always this

sense that fighting a First World War type battle, of which Ukraine's often being compared, is a bad thing. But it does allow you to create a space, a place, the Germans were very good at this in the First World War, in which, you know, it is possible to survive. And one of the issues for the British troops marching across the Falklands is that they were just out in the brutal weather, weren't they? They didn't have a chance to

build these very effective dugouts and line them and you know and resupply them you know you're literally living outdoors pretty pretty tough stuff and there wasn't any possibility of digging trenches because the terrain didn't allow it the water table was very high so as soon as you put your spade your entrenching tool into the water at night you were meant to dig in so we all dutifully dug

tried to do a shell scrape as they were called, dig a shell scrape. But as soon as you got two or three inches below the peat, you were just creating a puddle essentially. So there wasn't any prospect of actually digging nice, dry, comfortable peat.

trenches and dugouts. So Volodymyr, some of our female listeners would be fascinated to know the role of women in the Ukrainian military. I mean, we know from statistics that it is a relatively high number. I think off the top of my head, you'll correct me in a second, it's something like 20% of the Ukrainian army is female. So what kind of roles do they play in the Katya Brigade? Tell us a little bit about their contribution. Well, first, I'm not sure 20% is the right percent.

That needs to be checked. I think that before the big war, the full-scale invasion started, the overall percentage could be up to 10%. Then as the army increased greatly, primarily due to the inflow of men, so it shrunk. With the brigade, I'm not going to tell the exact number, but there is quite a good percentage.

women in a number of roles, primarily those are still staff roles from the medical to logistics to the finance to the personnel to the morale and combat spirit and military psychologists and war psychologists. Again, we've got, like for instance just last night I was talking to a staff sergeant who oversees operations planning for our logistics battalion

and our sapper battalion, which is again what used to be considered like a very masculine role, like sappers, battle engineers, etc. However, missions are being planned and coordinated currently by a staff sergeant, female.

We've got quite a few female pilots. If we're talking about specific infantry units, most of those are still male-dominated for a number of reasons. Well, first, still we don't have obligatory female conscription, so those harder roles are quicker filled in by men. Second, still some of the commanders are not very willing to take on women.

for a number of factors, one of those being the morale of the unit. So there have been cases documented that show that a unit can survive the loss of a male comrade soldier easier than when they lose a woman. So that takes a larger toll on the men. So there is that. However,

With our new recruitment campaigns, we are advertising the role of women and we see how women respond to that, which is interesting because unlike men, most of the women could survive and not being drafted, not being selected. So it's an absolutely voluntary role.

Vladimir, we've been pleasantly surprised since arriving in the city that despite the number of air raid sirens that are going off and they're going off pretty much constantly, there hasn't been that much actually coming into the city in terms of missiles and glide bombs. And yet...

Seven or eight months ago an awful lot of munitions were exploding in and around the city. So what's made the big difference over the last few months? Well, this would be pretty much speculation because we don't know exactly what's happening in the Russian generals mind. I could think of several factors. Well, first at that point

Kharkiv was one of their main lines of effort and so they were really trying to push through into Kharkiv and capture it and then possibly move further. So that's when Harte came in, so we redeployed from Liman which is 80 kilometers away from here and were given an order to be in Kharkiv in 12 hours.

So that was again a big feat for a brigade to move in full and start fighting off wheels with an oncoming enemy in 12 hours. So we stopped them there and they kept bombing us. So the brigade stopped Russian advance and then for some time they were trying to send in more munitions, specifically guided bombs.

and at some point our positions north of Kharkiv could be taking 40-50 guided bombs per day, which is a lot. But then first their offensive dried out and second Kursk happened.

And so we immediately saw the decrease in the artillery and guided bombs in our line of the flat and it's been minimal since. So in recent months, I mean minimal for a big city is one or two guided bombs per day or per couple days.

But definitely that's nothing compared to those dozens of guided bombs that we were taking before the Kursk invasion. What would be your minimum conditions for an end to the actual fighting? Well, again, I'm not in a position to speak...

about political decisions. I'm just a guy on the tactical level. But I think that just looking overall from a historical perspective, what Russia really needs and what it's fighting for is access to trade routes and access to resources.

So that's why access to the Baltic Sea has been so crucial for Russia. And that's why I think that the Baltic countries, they feel the threat and that's why they're giving basically everything that they have to Ukraine because they understand that they would be next. And same with the Black Sea.

So it was always an empire's desire to get access to the warm sea to control the trade routes. So if we want to disable the empire from growing and threatening, we need to cut those ways, those access to the trade routes, because like 95% of...

world trade is being done through the sea. And on top of that, of course, this is Ukrainian territory that you legitimately and emotionally feel is yours. So that's another issue. So you're in a scenario where there is a freezing of the front lines in return for some sort of ceasefire cessation of hostilities. What do you think would be Ukraine's attitude from that point onwards? They wouldn't want

to any international recognition of the territory that Russia has taken for what? Well, that definitely is very important, is that no land captured by Russia is recognized internationally. But I think that me and most of the soldiers, I mean, not being politicians, we still stick about what exactly we would need to do post-war.

any peace talks and that would be just to get better at our craft and regenerate the forces and develop and enhance the professional military education system and make sure that our army is well trained and is well equipped and is led by capable leaders so that we are ready for the next Russian advance which will definitely happen as we have seen multiple times

And I think that by now it's just a matter of time when the Empire decides to strike back. And how much space do you put in international guarantees? Because with later mentorship there's going to be a huge element

in all the projections of what peace deal, what Ukraine might agree to, either some accelerated membership of NATO. But surely one of the lessons of this war is that you can't really, Ukraine cannot rely for its existence on the goodwill of outside powers. Yes, you've got a great deal of assistance from America, but that depends

And on who's in the White House, etc., etc. So what's your own personal feeling? I'm asking just because a soldier bothers a politician, but your own personal feeling about whether...

a NATO membership really is as valuable as it appears to be. Well, I'll be walking everything ice here because a soldier is never off duty. And again, I'm not part of this conversation and those negotiations, so I don't know about that. But I think that we definitely... Something that we saw is that

Any country invaded will be primarily defended by the population, the citizens of this country.

and that means that we have to rely on ourselves. However, we definitely would rely further on armor equipment. So basically, we would need more armor equipment, artillery, shells, etc., to make sure that our people who have already multiple times showed their ability to fight so that they...

are well equipped to fight. Okay, we're going to take a break there. And then after the break, you'll hear Saul's conversation with friend of the podcast, Joe Lindsley, who discusses Kharkiv's journey through this war, his time reporting on WGN radio, and a remarkable tale from the White House during Trump's first term.

Thinking of Inauguration Day, I was thinking of this as I took the train, the 15-hour train from Lviv last night. Yeah. It was Inauguration Day 2009, Obama's first. I just quit this job I had and was figuring out what to do next. I got a call that day. I was while Obama was talking. I'm watching the speech from my apartment in Pennsylvania, and I got a call from Rupert Murdoch's consigliere.

saying, "Joe, can you come to New York tomorrow?" You have jerky. To meet Roger Ailes. And that was the beginning of my... And I went to meet Ailes and I was worried about this, but I didn't really realize what it meant.

I didn't go back to my apartment. They sent people. I eventually went back like weeks later to like finally close it up but I met Ailes the next day after the inauguration. Shook his hand, accepted the job, they put me up and I didn't, I couldn't even go home. They sent movers to get my shit and my whole life changed in that moment and so I'm thinking that was So what's that eight years? That was 2008. Oh,

Oh, 2009. Yeah, Obama's first. Obama's first. So, and now all these, you know, all the crazy shit later. Like, there I was at the pinnacle of media power on the avenue of the Americas, News Corporation Tower. And for me, I thought, oh, I'm a journalist and this is the best place, you know, I'm in the best position for it. Now, wait, can I do journalism? But I can also help many others do it because we're at the top of this. And then, of course, I realized that that was not possible there. And now, just so, you know, it's good and...

I don't think it's bad, but it might sound bad initially, but I'm thinking, now I'm on a train. Because I had invitations, by the way, to go to the Trump inauguration.

- The first one? - No, this one. - Did you? - Yeah, people were inviting me, because I know lots of those people. And I had invitations and I... - Did they not see you as an outcast? You're in a bus state. - No, especially not now, because everything is quite shaken up from there. And I think, I mean, we go into the weeds in that, but even when Trump won in 2016, he ended up having a rift with Roger Ailes. And so I think people actually began, even people on the right began to respect

Me for having. Okay. Someone is taking him on. Just can we go over the ground again a little bit? Joe, when we first met you in or spoke to you in 2022, I think it was the summer of 2022. You had been, well, we met you physically in 2023, but we tossed the boat to you in 2022. We started covering this. You were one of our first interviewees and you told us the incredible story of how you'd left the

News Corporation, Roger Ailes, you had escaped, you eventually found your way to Ukraine. And anyway, the point is, you were in this unique position of covering every single day of the war with WGN radio in Chicago until this Christmas. So can you tell me again a little bit of the sequence of events and why you think they cut you off?

Yeah, first of all, it was an extraordinary thing. We were the only foreign media covering Ukraine live every day from Ukraine. Not just 2022, 2023 and throughout most of 2024 until December. And it

It became, as far as I could tell, it was the most popular segment on their channel, WGN, in Chicago. And we had listeners would come here, travel here to volunteer. They would send money. We were able to buy drones and all kinds of things. And it was live 10 minutes every single day.

7:20 in the morning Chicago time 3:20 p.m. Here in Ukraine every day and there's video of you too wasn't that cuz all you was going out on the radio It was it was recorded. Yeah, I would make video here I put it on my my personal social media to Instagram and X and YouTube to sort of to grow it and to reach a non radio audience but the main audience is radio and it was a big audience and

I mean, I always knew it was something special. And we had a special bond with the audience. We could tell it from the listener feedback. Every once in a while, the host, Bob Surratt, would read some negative, some criticism, which is good. And then the next day would be flooded with positive comments. And so it was a nice indication that it was something special and popular. And it was because it was live, which is something I had never done. So, you know, I was more of a writer. I'd never done radio.

Live radio, I would prepare for it. And often when I finished, I'd be sweating. I'd put my heart and soul into it. But it was a live window into what it feels like to be here in Ukraine.

And the audience would talk about that. People would write and say, oh, Joe sounds tired today or scared or depressed. And like, that was good. That wanted them to feel what it was like. And so when... Yeah, you were almost like a weather vane for, you know, the typical Ukrainian going through the war. Yeah, in many ways. But also with my different political experience and a lot of, you know, connections in the military here and in the US. And so tempered with that knowledge because, I mean,

I mean, if it was just simply a weather vane, I mean, there were so many times in 2022 or 2023 when I had so-called experts, people with high security clearances from different countries, would come to me and say, oh, you know, we're going to ruse in a malt, you know. And I would weigh that against everything else and say, I don't see that happening. So I always try to, I think my turning point, Saul, on this and why this became a success until it was canceled is

It started organically and accidentally. WGM checked in. We talked the first day, February 24th, 2022.

It turns out I was one of the few voices saying Ukraine's not going to lose in three days. I'd been to Kharkiv just a few weeks before. I'd heard all the stories of how these people resisted in 2014 with no army. And so the following Monday, WGN calls me back and on air, the host, Bob Surratt, says, Joe, we thought you were crazy last week because you were the only one saying Ukraine's strong. And he said, this is only four or five days in. He said, now we're going to have you on every day.

Because you were right on this. But I realized by June of 2022 that if I just reported the news in the regular fashion, then the show would be phased out.

as we saw that happen with all the other Ukraine coverage, you know, from major media. And it would be Bakhmut, Bakhmut, Bakhmut. And I said, you know, I have to remember everything I know about media and really care for the audience. So people were driving to work on Monday in Chicago. If there's something really horrible that happened, I have to report it. But I also have to keep in mind, you're driving to work on Monday morning in Chicago. You don't just want to hear sad stuff. Make sure I give them inspiration, you know, to tell them that we're surrounded by inspirational stories here.

And so I would actually really think about it in those terms. And then, and amazingly, and this is why I saw it was crazy to me that we were canceled right before. Here we are on Inauguration Day talking. Like, I had a lot of connections in that world. The political stuff is very important right now in America. So very interesting things to report. And to be canceled at this moment was sort of extraordinary because we were not canceled in the doldrums. Like, you know, the moments in...

Even like late summer 2022 when things got calmer or summer 2023 where Kharkiv actually, you know, life was coming back to the city and we were canceled because I would... Often there wasn't something, there wasn't nothing horrible to report every day, but I would use that to go into Ukrainian history and culture and...

And so we kept the audience going. And that's why it was especially painful to have this cancellation right now. Yeah. From the outside, it seems totally mad that WGN at a time when things are moving to a head, some in some senses, I mean, we don't know which way it's going to go, but we do know that the new administration's determination to bring this to a conclusion one way or another is going to mean a decision. Either they're going to back

Ukraine fully because Russia doesn't play ball or they're going to try and twist Ukraine's arm into a piece it doesn't want, in which case, you know, the people, as it were, the politics here may make that impossible. But something's going to happen. As you pointed out,

Joe, as soon as Trump got in, the Ukrainians want that more than they want this slow death that they were experiencing under Biden. Yeah, at least to have some sense of clarity. And this is a widespread view here. And I think people respect Trump as a leader here because we've seen what happens when you don't have clear leadership. But even on a more personal level, I mean, I had some of the stories I shared with WGN too, but I

In 2019, when Trump was being impeached the first time over his phone call with President Zelensky, there's a whole lot to go into there. But I happened to be in Ukraine. I was traveling the world. I went to Ukraine. I was working with, collaborating with the Ukrainian Catholic University in Lviv. And then I was invited to a conference in Washington. So I flew from Lviv to Washington.

October 2019. And I go, I check into my hotel. They're like, where are you coming from? And I said, Ukraine. And everyone's like, don't say that. That's the scariest word right now in Washington. Because it was right when the impeachment hearing was beginning. And a few days later, I went to the White House, the Trump White House, because I had a lot of friends who worked there.

I did back then and I will now too and just to have some coffee and I was like I should tell people that I've been in Ukraine because I knew Washington was on edge and after I was there for a couple hours I said maybe it's not a big deal and so I'm talking with a few friends who worked in security stuff there like national security stuff and we're outside on the North Lawn

And a woman who was one of Trump's early employees approaches us. My friends introduced me to her. And she says, hey, Joe, what's your story? And I was very relaxed at that point. I was like, well, I was just in Ukraine. And she looked at me, this woman, I won't mention her name, but she looked at me like a witch that was melting. And she started screaming. She's like, who is this guy? Who is this guy? Get him out of there. Get him out of here. And my friends started backing up away from me.

so-called friends backing away from me and at this moment I'm keenly aware of all the snipers on the rooftop of the old executive and of the White House and I say to one friend I say what should I do he's like you have to leave

I said, my cell phone is still in the West Wing because you have to leave it there in the lockers. He's like, go get it, quickly, but don't run because if you run, you'll probably get shot. And it was so absurd that, and there's much more with that whole saga, but just that one little window, you know, the absurdity of a lot of this. Anyway, I have stories about most of these things. So that was one reason why it was a bit weird to be cancelled at that moment. Yeah. I know that Khaki used to be very Russian-speaking, but obviously it's not

not so acceptable to speak russian anyway so odessa by the way i want to hear what you we just came we just came from where you know i loved it i mean it's great it's a very lovely city so julius knows it very well he's been there a number of times and and he's he's a good russian speaker but although as he keeps saying there are times where i just people won't respond anymore in a way that they would have done in the past and odessa was another russian speaking but there's still like

My last trip there in October was the first time where I could speak Ukrainian and people didn't look at me like I was an alien. So it's very different. But Kharkiv, on the other hand, is more... Because they've been through such hell, the people who left Kharkiv and live in Lviv, they speak Russian. In Lviv. And it pisses off people, but no one said... You know, quietly it pisses off people. But the people who stayed here, they make a huge point of speaking...

We've had some extraordinary statistics. I just want to run this by you and if you can confirm this or not. The pre-war population of Kharkiv, I don't know, anywhere

anywhere between one and a half to two million. Okay, so let's say 1.8. Of that original 1.8 since the full-scale invasion, only 300,000 originals left and another 500,000 refugees, but the population, some people say, is down to 800,000 now. Does that sound anything vaguely close to what you've heard? It sounds right. It's fluctuated a lot. I mean, when I first came here during the wartime, 2022, it was...

It was a ghost town. I mean, it was a wild west, wild east. No lights at night. And if so in winter, it's dark at 4 p.m. And there was one Georgian restaurant that was always open. And they would be... They had their lights, like their Christmas lights on the outside, and there'd be blasting music. And I felt like you'd be walking down the street in total darkness, like you're floating through outer space. And there's this...

A little beacon of light. And in a real... Oh, a well-known place, because we were supposed to be going to a Georgian restaurant last night. We went to lunch at your place, the one you suggested. They'd already organized this evening thing, and they decided not to go to a Georgian restaurant because it's so well-known. Probably, it was... The day before the inauguration. Yeah, it was the only place that was... Really? But then there were all the underground places. Like, there were, like, strip clubs that were converted into military spots. And there no longer were strip clubs. It was like, yeah,

You have old ladies making IFACs and netting. Next stripper pulls another. And you could drive 150 miles an hour in the city. Because it's just built around. Yeah. What sort of, what date are you talking about? This is 2022. So you've been up to...

Summer of 2022 and then up to the liberation of Kharkiv region. Not only have you been in Ukraine during the whole of this period, you've been back and forth to Kharkiv all the way through. What was the first date you came in 22? To Kharkiv? Yeah. Actually, I came here before the full-scale invasion. I came here in...

January, February 2022. Oh, did you? Okay. Because I had only been in Lviv and Kiev and Odessa and I knew some stories about what happened in 2014 here that the Russians almost took over the city. But they did for maybe a few hours. So I wanted to understand this place. So I came here before full scale. Okay. But I've seen it. I've seen the city reopen like...

But this, I know from the way you've been talking both now and but also in the past when we've spoken to you about this place, is that in your words, it kind of encapsulates the spirit of Ukraine, doesn't it? And also the transformation to a certain extent in the way that, you know, the war unfolded

unwittingly for the Russians has actually solidified the Ukrainian sense of nationality, hasn't it? And determination and resistance. And there's no better example of it than this place. I mean, someone's got to write a book. Maybe you should write a book, you know, maybe in diary form of Kharkiv's story. It's extraordinary. I agree so. I was just meeting yesterday with an American chef who's on Gordon Ramsay's show, by the way. And he's in Lviv, but he comes here a lot to Kharkiv and he would say, oh, it's my favorite place in the world.

And everyone I know who comes here feels that. When the journalists go and they're in Lviv or Kiev and they interview people, you find people who are very negative. The rates of depression are much higher in Lviv.

about the war. And here it is. And you still have adrenaline here. This is the message that attacks will give you adrenaline. If the adrenaline is gone in the West. It's just fighting the depressed. Yeah. And you also have so many people who left places like this, who went to the West. And so here you have a self-selection. People who've chosen to stay. And it was a pretty extraordinary moment. It was January of last year. New Year's, the Russians paled in the city. And it was people, I was in Lviv, but people called me from Kharkiv. It was the first time I heard fear in their voices.

I've been through so much, but it was that bad. And so I quickly came back here a few days later and I was at a party with some artists and musicians and creative people here.

And I was talking with a girl who had been, she's from Kharkiv and she was living in Portugal. And those attacks were so bad, January 2024, that she chose to come back and defiance. That actually became a rallying point. And all these people saying that we need to be here as a resistance. Because if you leave the city, it becomes more easier for the Russians to take it.

Okay, that's it for this week. Stay tuned for our usual update of the latest news from Ukraine on Friday. And do remember to click follow wherever you get your podcasts to keep updated with all our content from Ukraine. Goodbye.