253. Collecting the Fallen: Ukraine's Grim Harvest
31:09 Share

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.

Hello and welcome to a special episode of Battleground Ukraine with me, Saul David. Today I'm talking to young Hungarian journalist, Boldazar Gyori, who we met on our recent trip to Kharkiv and who's been living there for the last five months, right on the edge of the front lines, just about 25 miles away from the Russian border.

But before we talk to Baldy, just a quick warning to listeners that some of the material is quite gruesome. Dead bodies recover from the battlefield in quite a lot of detail. So just beware. Baldy, welcome to the podcast. Hi, thanks for having me.

Now, we met, of course, for the first time in Kharkiv during our recent trip there. Tell us a little bit about how you ended up in Kharkiv. I should say to the listeners that you're a relatively young journalist, aren't you? 25 years old, is that right, Baldi?

26, but thanks for assuming less. Close enough. Okay, but still pretty young, probably about the same age Patrick was when he went out to the Falklands. He might have been a year or two older. But in any case, tell us how you ended up in Kharkiv covering the Ukraine war. Right. So to start at the beginning, I've always been fond of history and when the war started.

I immediately sensed, just as many around me, that really the veil of history is turning in Ukraine now. And I just want to be there and witness it somehow because it will determine probably a good chunk of my life and what kind of world I will live in and my kids. And journalism seemed to be a good way to get close to action and witness it. And it's also a good technique to just...

process what you were witnessing

I've never been a trained journalist. I just went to Julius Strauss, another friend of this podcast, and asked him to mentor me, which he did for a couple of months after which I set off to Kharkiv, which is an ideal city, not too close to the front line, not too close to danger, but it's still not too far, just like Kiev might be at this stage of the war.

So that's why I chose Kharkiv as my springboard to eastern Ukraine. And that's how I ended up there. And you were living there or have been living there. You're now briefly in Budapest, aren't you? You've gone back home for a couple of weeks for family reasons. But you have been living in Kharkiv for about six months. Is that correct? That's exactly right. I've been there since early September last year, 2024. So maybe I would say around five, six months.

Okay. And we, of course, visited your home. You suggested and Julia suggested that in the day that you were actually off getting a little bit closer to the front lines, we had a look at the north.

I think it's in the northeast of Kharkiv, isn't it? Which is a little bit closer to Russia and a little bit closer to the current fighting Russian enclave just over the border there. It's a pretty tough place. It's a tough place to live. It's interesting you've chosen it. I think you said to me that, yeah, well, the rent's free. So, you know, why wouldn't I take the opportunity? It's cold. It's quite desolate. There's kind of open landscape directly in front of

your tower block one or two of our listeners have taken umbrage at us uh calling it kind of soviet in style but i think that's probably fair to say isn't it how has it been last few months living there would you say you're actually right this house is one of the products of the famous or ill-famous house factories of the soviet union so there is nothing bad about calling it soviet it was built in the heydays of the soviet union

And about the last couple of months is, so I arrived to Kharkiv in September and I've been living there throughout October and November, which I should say it was quite loud. It was a loud period. We had a lot of shelling and so-called cops, which are these Soviet era cops.

manufactured bombs which are just aerial bombs dropped on the city from a big distance but they but

But the bomb arrives there anyway. And that gave me a good... Sorry to interrupt, Baldi. Is that the so-called... Because our listeners will know from their press reports and also comments we've made on the podcast. Are those the so-called glide bombs? They've kind of been adjusted by the Soviets to be sent from a long way away. That's exactly right. These are the so-called glide bombs, which can glide hundreds of kilometers from their discharge point somewhere in the Russian airspace.

and then arrive to peaceful cities and there's peaceful civilians just like I am in Kharkiv. And it was quite an experience to actually read in the news that civilians are targeted and then arrive to Ukraine and actually experience that, yes, I am one of those targets and

they are dropping bombs on me as well. It really changes one's mindset and it challenges your journalistic objectivity that you try to achieve during your writings and reporting. So October and November were, you know, it was a bit loud and the first half of January was okay and now they began shelling Kharkiv more and more again, only this time with drones.

supplied Shahid drones. I think we were quite fortunate when we, in the couple of days that we spent in the center of our caves, that actually it was relatively quiet as you say. And by the time we, I think it was the day after we left, we

We had a brief exchange with you, Boldy, didn't we? And you mentioned the fact that things were getting a little bit louder, as you put it, which is a euphemism for explosions and literally the shaking of buildings. I mean, it's not to be underestimated. Is it the strain that the local population and therefore you too living there must be under? Yes, it really does put a strain on one's psyche. I would say it's a slowly killing poison, just like...

I don't know if listeners can remember back COVID times, which were of course tough for those who catch the virus, but those who just had to stay indoors, enjoyed the couple of first weeks, months, maybe, enjoyed the unexpected free time. But throughout the years, throughout the closures, people just really began to be annoyed by it. And then I think we can all see the ramifications of it.

mental health-wise in our societies, and it's the same in Kharkiv. After the siege ended in the first half of 22 and the Russians retreated from around the city, life became relatively peaceful, not counting the occasional shelling.

And if one is living there, I mean, Kharkiv used to be a 2 million strong city, now it's around 800,000. Chances that you are hit by this missile strike is actually quite low. However, throughout months and years of hearing these explosions,

People just become more and more agitated without actually maybe noticing themselves. But you can really see it. People are less temperate with each other. Violent crimes are going up.

So yeah, just like you said, it really has its toll on the local population's mindset. I can see how Harkiv is a very good choice of base of operations for you, Boldy, if you can put up with the stresses and strains of it effectively being under attack.

You are within striking distance, of course, as I've already mentioned, of a lot of the front lines. You went out with Julius and Kim and Askol to Kupyansk while we were there. Kupyansk is a city that was liberated, I think, wasn't it, in the advance in late 2022. And the Russians are now trying to take it back. And they're closing in on the outskirts of Kupyansk. And we've already played some of the report.

that you and the others gave quite a dramatic account, actually, of your trip there. But that's just the kind of normal type of risk that anyone who is going to report from the front line has to accept, don't they? Is that something that you've had to get your head around? I mean, you went from a civilian life to now, you know, you're not a combatant, of course, but you are someone very close to the front line and danger is all around. Has that been tricky for you to deal with?

I think no one can actually estimate how good or bad they're going to take it until they are actually there. And I would be lying if I said it was easy. When one, I think, never forgets the first time when they cross the border and hear the air raid sirens going off. They have such a screechy voice that cannot really be described or comprehended throughout just watching videos or on the internet.

And then gradually as you go further into the country, you experience your first time you hear explosions, the first time you actually see something explode. So these are all steps when one has to confront their own fear and make a decision whether to turn back or keep going closer and closer to the front line.

And like I said in the beginning, I would be lying if I didn't have those moments of really sitting down and thinking through why am I doing this and whether I am capable of encountering such threats. And I was scared and I'm still scared and being scared is good because it keeps you alive and it makes you cautious.

So it's a fine balance. It's a fine threat to walk through, not losing your ability to be scared, but also not becoming numb to the threat, but also not becoming unable to operate due to fear on the field. Okay, we'll take a break there. Do join us in a moment to hear what Boldy told us next.

Welcome back. Now, one of the you've obviously met a number of interesting people and covered a lot of interesting stories over the last few months. But something you mentioned to us is particularly poignant, but also quite moving story about an NGO who was collecting bodies, not just Ukrainian bodies, but also Russian bodies, which is obviously along the front line and slightly to the rear of the front line.

Tell us about that person. Who is that and how did you come across them? Right. So this guy's name is Oleksii and he's a living legend among the Ukrainian soldiers. And I have to say, even the Russians know him by his name because he was born and raised in the eastern Ukrainian city of Slovyansk.

which was contested in 2014 when separatist fights broke out. And as a young teenager, Oleksii was already fond of collecting and looking up the deceased and the remains of the deceased of the First and Second World War soldiers around Soloviansk. And so as a young adult, when the separatist fights broke out, he...

did what he said he's best at, namely looking up remains of the soldiers of those separatist fights, both Ukrainians and Russians. And that's what he did in the last 10 years until the full-scale invasion began, which just made a lot more work for him, unfortunately. And he began doing this full-time, and therefore he had to

hire people to an NGO, which he established to be able to receive donations. It's called Platzdarm. And that's the story of Oleksi. He was almost executed by the separatists in 2015, but he was so respected, even by the separatists, that when they realized who he is,

The commander just told the executioner squad, quote, guys, do you not know who will bring you back to your mother if you die here? If you shoot him now. And that's when everyone like slapped on their forehead and they let him go.

And so Olex is quite someone. He's quite a legend in both fights and he's respected for what he does. And where is he based now, Baldi? So he basically roams the whole front line. He doesn't have like one particular section which he likes to cover. I followed him close to Slobiansk, which is in Donetsk, where one of the heaviest fightings are ongoing.

And also a little bit in the rare, in Harkiv Oblast, I went with him to a scene of a battle which took place sometime

in 2022 summer, when the Ukrainians pushed out the Russians a little bit further back from Kharkiv Oblast into Donetsk Oblast. So that was the two places I met him. But he operates all along, actually, the 1,200 kilometer long front line.

And tell us a little bit about his methods, what he does, and what you saw, actually, when you were with him. Sure. So because he's been doing this so long, he knows how to find... He knows, first of all, where he is likely to find bodies. Of course, in those places where heavy fighting were taking place.

And so he goes there by his volunteers, wearing helmets and heavy body armor because of the danger of mines and unexploded ordnance everywhere. They actually demined the territory, usually themselves, he said, because if they just waited for official deminers, then they would just never have an opportunity to get the job done. So they learned demining and they do it themselves.

And so they have a drone which they fly over a territory. The drone sees, of course, where the dugouts are in the forest. That's what happened when I followed him. We went to a forest and he flew the drone over and the drone spotted a dugout which they haven't encountered before. So they carefully treated it.

a path through the wood with anti-personal and anti-tank mines scattered all over, unexploded hand grenades all around. There has been some heavy fighting there. And so we treated that path until we found that dugout. Truth to be told, I wouldn't have noticed anything because they said the battle there took place more than two years ago there.

So most of the bodies have decomposed and also the bones have been scattered partly due to explosions, partly due to animals gnawing on, chewing on the bodies, unfortunately. So what we found were just a couple of bones. So if I would have gone there by myself, I wouldn't have noticed anything. But he was the expert and he immediately spotted little fractures of bones, bones

under the foliage, under the fallen leaves, because we have to remember, two winters has passed since then. So actually, the scene has changed quite a bit since those poor Russian soldiers were killed there, because they were Russians in that dagat. We have seen

Their equipment that was left there, some body armor, some helmet, but the bodies were gone except for the bones. It was a little bit interesting to see how these soldiers lived their last days, what kind of equipment they had in the dugout. Apart from ammunition and hand grenades, which you had to be very careful to avoid stepping on, they had military-issued black tea bottles

still untouched in the plastic foliage. Also, the clothes was there. And Oleksii, he's quite experienced. He could tell where the Ukrainian soldiers surprised them. He said it was probably a gunfire. Ukrainians were moving through the forest, three to three, until they reached the dugout, and then they probably threw in a couple of hand grenades, which explains the wide radius of

of the remnants of the bodies, which they carefully cataloged, collected into black bags, and then put them on the back of their truck, a pickup. It's actually quite remarkable how tediously Olexi works. He has a tremendous respect for the dead and for the fallen soldiers. He told me, Luke, I'm doing this because if I don't take the dead's side, then no one will.

The worst has happened to them, be them Ukrainians or Russians. The worst has happened to them. So someone has to take their side. So he meticulously combed through a two times two square meter big area for four hours. And he was proud to show me, look, I've just found the third tooth.

or these very tiny parts of the bones of the hand, because he said, look, if we don't take everything from here and we find them later, imagine having to bury your child not once, but twice or three times, because people just show up and say, oh, here is some left, here is some more left. And you don't want any parent to go through that. So he really pays attention to find

all the remnants of a body. And after he does that and they carry away these bones, they have other operations as well, but they don't take journalists with themselves to those operations. When they actually go under the cover of darkness during night to the very front line and even to no man's land,

and pull freshly deceased comrades and Russian soldiers from the battlefield, put them into plastic bags and transport them to the rear where they lay them down

one by one and began cataloging them, trying to identify them, which is not no easy task, especially with the Russian so-called stormtroopers who usually are ex-convicts or people with very poor origin that usually don't have documentation or papers on them. I also accompanied him for one such cataloging mission

And I have to say, I felt very sorry for those Russian soldiers, even though they were here voluntarily, just looking at their clothes, summer shoes,

sneakers. They were sent through the minefields towards Ukrainian positions. You could just really see based on their clothes that how few the Russian army actually cares about them. And of course, horrible wounds, which ended their lives. And ultimately, I mean, it's an extraordinary story, really, and particularly poignant, Boldy, given that you mentioned

Alexei was originally interested in bodies from the First and Second World War, and he's now turned those skills to the current conflict. But it's the sensitivity with which he deals with the bodies that's so extraordinary. First of all, at huge risk to himself, of course, from unexploded ordnance, as you say. But more than that, he's going to the front hotlines at the moment where there's active shelling and mortaring and putting his and his colleagues' lives at risk.

all for the purpose of returning the bodies to, presumably, the families. So one last thought on this, Baldi. How does the transfer of these human remains back to Russia take place, or will that take place at a later date? So Oleg seems he's a civilian. He's not part of the Ukrainian army.

The most he can do is catalog these bodies. He writes down if he finds any peculiar mark on the bodies, be them tattoos or anything that those people later can be identified with. And he hands over this information alongside with the body to Ukrainian officials who also try to identify even maybe with DNA sampling

these bodies. And these Ukrainian officials later contact the Russian officials who do the same with Ukrainian soldiers, and they try to exchange the bodies as fast as possible because, to be honest, Oleksii said, nobody wants to take care of each other's fallen soldiers. They just want them out of Ukraine as fast as possible, even though with dignity.

but they don't want to take care of them so long. And I also asked him about the exchange ratio, whether it's one-to-one, like with prisoners of war, and he said, look, not exactly. We just want them out of here. So during the summer, I've read that they handed over some 500 Russian soldiers in exchange for 40-something Ukrainian soldiers.

remains. So it doesn't really work that way, just like with Prisoners of War. He said in case we find someone who was a little bit higher up in the ranks or

some kind of medal or honor, then we might ask something in return, something more precious in return. But usually they just exchange them at the border at pre-agreed times.

And last thought about this, Boldy, is that you mentioned he's not in the Ukrainian military and yet he's doing vital war work. Does this in some ways make him immune to call-up? I mean, one thing I didn't ask you was his age, actually, whether or not he is liable for call-up to the Ukrainian armed forces. He is liable for call-up. He's military-aged. But in Ukraine, if someone is working...

in a crucial job, then they receive exemption. For example, power plant workers, miners, those people whose job is indispensable for society receive an official exemption. Now, I'm not sure if Oleksik has an official paper or documentation that he does an indispensable work for society. However, I strongly believe that since he is widely known and respected in the army,

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely fascinating story that conflict always throws up these remarkable people. And lastly, Boldy, have you actually written about him? I mean, is there any article that's already out there in print that the listeners could access? Yes, I usually write for Radio Free Europe Hungary or Radio Free Europe Ukrainian service.

And I think by the time this episode will be out, my article will also be out, well, either in Hungarian or Ukrainian. So I strongly suggest our listeners to check

to dive into the Hungarian or Ukrainian language to be able to read my piece. I think we'd have to be using a bit of AI on that. Or that. Yeah. Okay, Baldi, thanks so much for joining us. We'd love to talk to you again in the weeks and months to come if you're happy to do that and let us know what you've been up to. And most of all, best of luck, stay safe, and we'll talk to you again.

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Well, that was fascinating, if grim stuff, wasn't it? We intend to have Boldy back on the podcast on a fairly regular basis, keeping us updated on what's happening in the east of the country. So listen out for that. Do join us on Wednesday for another episode of Battleground 45 and also on Friday from our usual roundup of news from Ukraine. Goodbye.

We are now living in a world where cold hard power is being exercised. Disorder is now partnered with the Royal United Services Institute, the world's oldest and the UK's leading defence and security think tank. And if the UK wants to convene, it needs to bring something to the party. In this week's episode, hear me, Jason Pak, in conversation with Matthew Saville, RUSI's Director of Military Sciences.

We look at Britain's role in the world. Can Britain use hard military power to become an ordering player on the global stage? If we just see ourselves as essentially a place to have nice conversations at Lancaster House, then all we're going to do is be standing still whilst China and Russia are using hard power to achieve their objectives. Follow Disorder wherever you get your podcasts. ♪