256. Aid and Art in a Time of War
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Hello and welcome to Battleground Ukraine with me, Patrick Fisher. Today we're bringing you another one of our interviews from our time in Ukraine, this time with British photographer and activist Mark Neville, who has lived in Ukraine since 2020 and has been providing crucial aid to Ukrainians through his charity, Postcode Ukraine.

Now, we know there's been a lot of developments on the diplomatic stage this week with senior officials from Russia and the United States meeting in Saudi Arabia. And of course, earlier, there was the emergency summit in Paris between key European leaders, before which Sir Keir Starmer said he was prepared to send British troops to Ukraine as part of a peacekeeping force. So keep an eye out for our full reaction to these dramatic diplomatic developments coming later this week. But before then, we'll take you to Kyiv.

where we stoke to mark. Hope you enjoy it.

So we arrived in Kyiv around about midday today after a rather lovely journey across the flatlands, as I described them, the sort of step of Ukraine on our journey from Kharkiv via Poltava. Briefly had a look at and wondered about that battle. I actually did a bit of checking. It was 1709, not 1707, as I said, as we were passing through the railway junction. But anyway, lovely journey over. We're now sitting in my hotel room halfway up or three quarters of the way up

the hotel in Kyiv. And we are very delighted to talk to an old friend of the podcast, Mark Nettle, artisan photographer who came on about 18 months ago. I think it might have been Mark. I think it was 18 months. Yeah, it was summer 2023. Could that be? I think it was the summer of 2023. And you were telling us about your previous project. We're going to go on to the new one in a minute. But just remind us of that first one, because it sort of sets the scene with why you're in Ukraine.

and really what you've been doing. You've been a permanent resident since 2020, but you came to Ukraine a lot earlier than that, didn't you? Yes, I first came here because I made a book called Battle Against Stigma, actually, which is about mental health issues in the British Army. So I'd been to Afghanistan as a war artist, and I

And I made this book about mental health in the army. And out of the blue, I got an email from Kiev Military Hospital saying, we heard about your book about mental health. Do you have a Ukrainian language version of this book? And I was like, Ukraine? Where's that? Russia? You know, totally ignorant. I didn't even know where Ukraine was. But I was so impressed that this country wanted to, you know, kind of find out about how to treat mental health issues as a result of conflict and

But I got in touch with them and I actually translated my book into Ukrainian, sent it to them as a PDF. And I thought, no, that's not enough. I'm going to go and visit Kiev Military Hospital. So I went to Kiev Military Hospital for the first time in 2014. And even then, of course, they were receiving people not only with physical casualties, but mental injuries as a result of the war.

And I immediately fell in love with Ukraine, with its history, with its food, with its people. And I repeatedly tried to come back to Ukraine for work, for projects, for holidays, for exhibitions, for talks. And then eventually I met my wife and moved here permanently in 2020. And for all that period, I was making a book called Stop Tanks with Books. And the idea was to try and alert the West to Russian aggression and

which obviously had started in 2013-14 and say, you know, we need to do something about this in the West. We need to give Ukraine a fast track membership to NATO. We need to support them. This isn't going to go away. And actually the book was an activist project. So what I did was I sent the book out, this big coffee table book of my photographs that I'd taken in Ukraine,

of interviews with Ukrainians about their political views with a kind of action plan for the West to support Ukraine, a call to action for the West rather. And I sent this book out for free to people with power in the West. So the super rich media, politicians, everyone I thought had it in their power to somehow support Ukraine.

and I sent out 750 copies for free. And I literally got the book out two weeks before the war, full blown invasion started in February 2022. But of course, by that point, I was already living in Ukraine.

and I'd spent so much of my time trying to get this book out in time to alert the west I'd kind of forgotten to alert myself in a way so I I was in this very strange position of not knowing what to do you know I'm a permanent resident here in Ukraine and have been for five years now but um

When it hits you personally as a Westerner living in Ukraine and your partner's family is affected and your friends and your colleagues are affected, it really touches something very deep, I have to say. So you are in a very interesting position, Mark, aren't you? As you say, you're someone who's become an adopted Ukrainian, if you like, but you've still got that outside perspective.

So tell us something about how the mood has changed since the beginning of the war and where we stand now in terms of morale and what people hope for in the future. Well, it goes in waves, Patrick, I have to say. So it's very interesting to read Western reports about the war as a Westerner living in Ukraine because there's always a discrepancy there. There's always a gap.

and to live it is very different from reading about it clearly. And what happens is I've seen over the past year is there's been a lot of exhaustion, there's been a lot of depression,

Everyone I know is constantly going to funerals at the moment. So, you know, there's one a week at the moment, you know, amongst me and my friends because of mobilization, you know. So even amongst the charity that I'm co-director of, Postcode Ukraine, you know, our accountant or a small charity, there's only four or five of us.

Our accountant, her husband was mobilized. I guess he's a guy in his 40s, a civilian. He was mobilized, trained for six weeks, sent to Pekrowski, right to the front line. And within two days, he was badly injured, had to be brought back to Kiev and undergo surgery. He's okay. He's going to survive. But that's a very typical story. And almost all my male friends in Ukraine have been mobilized now.

And even I actually have received an SMS text message from the government saying, you know, if you're aged between 24 and 59, you have to report for duty.

And I haven't responded to it, but I'm 58 now. So in a way, if I was Ukrainian, I would definitely have to report and serve in some form to the Ukrainian army. It seems extraordinary that the net is spreading ever wider yet. Paradoxically, when we were in Kharkiv last night, there were young guys working as barmen, waiters. You see people on the street not in uniform. In fact, we spoke to one of them, and he was noncommittal about why

we weren't saying why aren't you in uniform but we were just asking generally what's the story here. It seems to an outsider, there doesn't seem to be much of a logic to it really. There is a kind of disparity in the way in which it is enforced. So for example, if you try to avoid enlisting in some sense, say you get caught on a train to the west of Ukraine by army officers who are checking up on people,

and making sure that they have reported themselves to the military for active service. And if you get caught on the train and you haven't done that, and you're a young guy in his late twenties, for example, I've heard stories from friends who have just been literally grabbed, taken and immediately sent for training and then sent to the front. And they've had no opportunity to collect their stuff, to say goodbye to their girlfriends, nothing. They're just taken.

But if you report to the military establishment and have an interview, they see that, you know, you're a professional doctor, for example, and your services would be better used if you work in a clinic in Kiev, then maybe your life would be pretty nine to five. Actually, you go to an office, you could stay in your apartment in Kiev. Things would not change. You'd be paid probably less money, but, you know, you'd ostensibly have the kind of civilian life. But it very much depends on

who you know, you can also say, oh, I want to work with this group of guys who are operating a drone units in, in Harkiv. So for example, my previous driver for the charity postcode Ukraine, an amazing guy called Yuri. He had friends of his who had already enlisted who were working in this tremendously successful drone unit, a bunch of intelligent, sympathetic guys. And he requested to join that unit and they approved it.

So, you know, there are different ways and means of getting a placement somewhere

suitable, I would say, but sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and it very much depends on your approach, I would say. So it sounds like it's like who you know and what strings you can pull out to a point, which again sounds a bit like the old kind of way of doing things, the old sort of Soviet mentality, if you like. Is there a bit of that still lingering on, do you think? Well, you're talking about a very big issue there, which is about nepotism and corruption, and I'm going to take a reality pill and say...

were living in Ukraine. I'm living in Ukraine. This is a very young country in many ways, 32 years old in its current form. And there's this huge history of Soviet oppression whereby your common civilian couldn't make enough money to live. So the only way you could survive was through some form of corruption or nepotism. That was the only way to survive.

when everyone here saw that the government was stealing so much money, you know, where's the incentive to be straight when that's happening? You know, so people felt stupid if they followed the rules and paid all their taxes and did that. So of course, you know, it's perfectly natural for there to be a huge legacy as a result of that Soviet oppression. It's not going to go away quickly. It is dissolving and corruption is definitely being fought.

and made transparent but does corruption exist of course it does do people pay bribes in order to get into a certain unit in the army of course they do you know it's just the way it is and i think it's always been the case with war that a lot of people have made a lot of money and that's

not unique to Ukraine that's universal as you as historians will testify you know the amount of money that gets stolen in every war is is off the scale you know but does it mean that we shouldn't support Ukraine no because there are so many people here with huge Integrity huge bravery

who are risking their lives on a daily basis to fight for our Western democracies and freedoms. So you've just got to forget about those corrupt people and focus on the good people who are doing the great work. And they are there and they are saving us from Russian invasion effectively. So I'm very clear that I've seen a lot of corruption, but I've seen as much, if not more corruption.

sincerity, trustworthiness, bravery, commitment. And that's why I stay because I'm just totally inspired by these people. When we were in Kharkiv, Mark, we were speaking to some military there who weren't very happy with the, uh,

determination of the government. They called it politics to not reduce the age of conscription any further. It dropped from 27 to 25. And of course, it could come down all the way to 18, which is something both US administrations have been calling for recently. The new

Trump administration too. We'll come on to Trump in a minute and what people hope to get out of any potential peace deal in a minute. But tell us a little bit about the attitude among civilians to this business of lowering the age. We've heard the arguments that there's a relatively small

demographic of these 18 to 25 year olds and the country doesn't want to lose its brightest and best but is there something else going on there and is the general attitude of most people actually the burden which is what patrick was getting out a minute ago the burden to fight should be spread more fairly should be spread more evenly um very good question i mean i talked to friends of mine in the military and they're all for lowering the age of mobilization to 18

And of course, they come to Kiev or Lviv in the West and they see people ostensibly relaxing. But I would also question that because actually...

You know, absolutely everyone I know, no matter where they live in Ukraine, is under huge stress because everyone is affected. So on the surface, it might look like a typical European city and cafes and bars, but everyone you speak to has their own story of having gone to a funeral of a friend or being worried out of their mind or not being able to sleep because their husband is on the front line. Or there's always something. And the whole nation...

is traumatized believe me it doesn't matter how strong you are how resilient everyone is not sleeping the rate of people taking antidepressants has shot through the roof so you know people talk about two sides and i've gone off the question a little bit here so but basically you know people talk about two sides of ukraine people partying and people not and everyone is affected now i can assure you and that's all to do with the age of mobilization so as soon as that kicked in to being 25

you know, more and more people were losing their friends and partners and loved ones and husbands and family members. And I think the problem is not with the age of mobilization personally.

I would say the problem is more to do with strategy of the Ukrainian army. So there are some very effective brigades who are incurring very small losses, actually. Sorry to interrupt, Mark, but the Kartea, the group we visited, do seem to have got that balance right between duty of care for their soldiers and a

effectiveness against the Russians. They're not just kind of gradually withdrawing. They're holding the line. And when they organize an operation, they make sure that they take care of all the details so that they minimize casualties.

And personally, if I was being recruited, going back to this question of whether you wait and just get assigned somewhere, whether you choose, I'd be looking to some of these brigades. And if I was in that demographic, but just to reiterate your point, then you don't personally support the reduction. You could see a reason why it shouldn't be brought into play to a team. Personally, I would say there are other things happening in the army that need addressing first. And I would say, yeah,

you know I want Ukraine to win the war I'm doing everything personally I can to support that effort and so is my family and my friends but I would say number one priority is things like using drone units units effectively so they can be sent out to spot accumulations of Russian infantry they can report back you need very good communication between the drone unit

the officers, the generals about where these accumulations of Russian soldiers are so that they can be hit effectively by mortar and artillery very quickly. But there's always some kind of frontline, but it's not a question of rushing towards Russian troops and firing and shooting, which is where all the casualties occur. So it's all about effective use of drones. And the brigades that do that are incurring small losses. So I would say that's going to win the war, not...

more bodies who are young not sufficiently trained in some circumstances i would say you know you really need more than six weeks to train someone up i would argue that's it so i would say do join us after the i'm kind of i feel ambiguous about lowering the age because actually the impact on the civilian population which is important too because we're all doing jobs to support the army

So we're talking about, you know, teachers, we're talking about psychiatrists, we're talking about psychologists, we're talking about, you know, people are really caring for veterans when they come back. We're talking about people like me who run charities here, who are making aid deliveries. We're talking about volunteers. So this huge demographic, you know, is also helping to win the war. And I'm a bit sceptical about the kind of psychological impacts on lowering the age to 18 of that demographic,

you know, which is also helping to win the war. So I would say, you know, if there was more units like Cartier who are trained up and fully trained in strategy and can ensure that there's good communication between all the elements of the brigade, I think that's really going to help us win the war rather than just flinging more bodies into the front line.

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We'll come on to the question of Trump's inauguration, which is one of the reasons why we're here, Mark. But before we do, tell us a little bit about what you've been up to. Remind us again of what your charity does and also some of the trips you've been doing to the front line and your new book project. So when the war started in 2022, I set up a charity called Postcode Ukraine.

And the idea was really to combine humanitarian aid deliveries to frontline towns and grant giving to other charities that we saw were doing the best work with my own forms of documentary practice, which include filmmaking and photography and bookmaking. So the idea was that, you know, when we go on these trips to the frontline from Kiev

And we deliver, like recently we delivered generators, heaters, thermal underwear, gloves, all sorts of resources to civilians and military actually.

but always humanitarian aid not weapons so we've been doing these trips now since summer 2022 but combining them with my photography so the idea is that you know when i when i take pictures i i meet people i talk to people and you begin to understand very quickly what their needs are whether it's you know it might be water it might be books it might be new windows it might be a new roof it might be uh temporary accommodation it might be evacuation it might be

home for their pets. And because we're a small charity, there's only five of us really working on Postcode Ukraine. We're able to provide aid very quickly. So that means we can have impact quickly. So we've kind of evolved this triangle of support whereby I go and take photographs, I meet people, I find out what their needs are. And as a result of taking their picture, we're able as a charity to provide them with humanitarian aid very, very quickly.

Whereas some of the other bigger charities who are doing tremendous work as well aren't able to have that personal connection with people. That, you know, sometimes they send aid to the wrong demographic or the wrong location or a location where it's not fully needed perhaps. So we've been going on these aid trips now since 2022 and this will result in our first publication. It's called Diary of a Volunteer and basically it includes about 100 pictures I've taken over the past two and a half years.

on these aid trips all across the frontline basically, and interviews with the people that we've provided aid for and documented, and also my own personal journey as a Westerner living in Ukraine trying to run a charity and all the challenges that that involves and what it's really been like, and this kind of gap between Western perception of what's going on and the reality. So as I often do, I'm making this book in an activist edition.

So to begin with, it's only been made in a dummy. So at the moment, it only exists in an edition of one. And I made it by hand. It's huge. And all the pictures are hand printed. They're stuck into this book. And it was sent to London in September. And the idea is that it only goes to one recipient at a time. So each recipient only gets it for one week. And

My idea behind this was that, you know, we're bombarded now with these images of Ukraine. And it's almost like the more we see, the less connected we feel to it. Like these digital platforms on Telegram, this kind of tsunami of saturated death and destruction. And the more visual information we have, it almost alienates us in a way to what's happening and to these people and to these communities.

So my idea was the only way to break through this would to be make an edition of one that was handmade. It wasn't digitized. It's not mass produced and it's been going from one recipient to the next in the UK. They have it for one week. They get to live with it.

And it was my way of trying to communicate the feeling of how it is here. You know, not some piece of news, not some piece of digitized appeal, but just this is how I feel about living in Ukraine. And so far it's gone to the BAFTA winning actress Louise Brealey, her partner Ferdy Kingsley, who's the son of Ben Kingsley. It's gone to Newsnight reporter Katie Razzall.

It's gone to Ukrainians as well who have been displaced to the UK. And we're just gathering responses to it. And I don't know what's going to happen with that. I don't know what the outcome will be.

But it was the only way I could think of trying to break through this kind of avalanche of images that we're receiving about Ukraine, which are just making us feel more and more distant from real people there. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right about that. I think that's a very overlooked and very, very important aspect of this war. We've all got used to those video clips of the armoured emerging from the wood, completely unaware of what's about to happen.

Then just out of the picture you see an object kind of falling, then the flash, then the smoke. Sometimes you see figures scurrying out of the stricken figure. And it's all become completely surreal, hasn't it? In the sense that we don't associate what we're seeing with death and blood and the horror and the noise and...

and the ghastliness of war it somehow sanitizes it strangely enough I was looking at an image yesterday I didn't want to but I was researching what the Koreans were up to and someone sent me an image of a Korean soldier cowering in a

ditch essentially, looking around nervously, then there's a flash of puff of smoke and he's dead, you know, but the guy that showed it to me, young Hungarian reporter said, "It's exactly what you were saying. Isn't it strange? Isn't it weird? Isn't it horrible how we just look at these things and we don't associate them with the reality of battlefield deaths?" I think what you're doing is tremendously important. Let's hope it does have that impact.

I mean, we will do a published edition of a thousand copies later in the year, which is again, is being sent out to a target audience of the super rich media, celebrities, people who we think can really help Ukraine. And then we're going to try and form a kind of circle of support amongst those people. So we're going to try and set up this kind of group of people we think can really help Ukraine

And that's what we're going to ask through the book. And we're also asking for mental health support through the book as well. So the book contains a list of all the mental health services in Ukraine currently operating that we've visited, that we've worked with, that we believe in, that we trust. And we're trying to link those services up with services in the West in order to provide them with information exchanges, knowledge, other types of support,

Because as I say, you know, the need now in Ukraine is through the roof and we've got something like a

a million and a half veterans in Ukraine now, you know, a huge amount who have come from absolute horror and who are now walking around on the streets of Kiev. And that's an incredibly difficult adjustment to make, not only for them, but also the civilian population here needs to be educated about how to behave if, you know, they get on the metro and they see a veteran crying in the corner, you know, what's going to help him and what's not.

You know, so it's incalculable how big the trauma is now for Ukraine after nearly three years. And that's really worrying. But we've got to start somewhere. You know, we've got to start addressing it. And it might be by training therapists. It might be by sending money. It might be through whatever. So really, the book is a call to action, both for mental health support, but also we're trying to make this group of people who I hope background Ukraine will be

to try and support Ukraine in its future because actually it's ordinary Ukrainians who need support here so that they have some kind of agency in determining their own future. So it's not a Russian future and it's not an American future or a European future. It's their own future.

you know, kind of identity that they're fighting for. And we've got to respect that and we've got to support it. So Mark, you more than anyone, and no doubt a good number, presumably the majority of Ukrainians would like to see this war stopped as quickly as possible, but not at any price. So we now have this bizarre scenario that President Trump has just taken the reins of power, of course, for the second time, said he'd stop the war in a day. Now they're beginning to suggest it might take a few months.

But under what terms? This is really the big question. And so I suppose what I wanted to get a sense from you and through you, if you can give me a sense of what ordinary Ukrainians are thinking. I mean, are they, have they got so war-weary now that they...

effectively would be able to accept the sort of peace that meant a chunk of their land was lost. I think when we spoke about this year and a half ago, Mark, we were a little bit more optimistic that the counter offensive may succeed and that most of the territory would be won back now.

Most people accept, including Zelensky, that certainly in the short term, that's not going to be the case. So how optimistic are they that Trump could be a force for good or are they very cynical? And it's just let's see how things play out over the next weeks and months. I mean, I think we've had so many ups and downs here that I'm actually strangely optimistic because...

Because I've seen on many occasions everyone telling us, oh, it's over for Ukraine now. That's it. You're finished. And it's never really happened. And I know so many people fighting so strongly, so bravely, that I can't imagine Ukraine being successfully occupied. So I'm always very wary now of any kind of prediction, even if things seem absolutely desperate, even if we...

you know, don't receive American aid this year. I still feel that, you know, Ukraine has a bright future. I still think it's really worth fighting for. I really think everything's to play for still. So, leaning on from that then, Mark, are you effectively saying that

Zelensky, as sensibly may be, to get on side with Trump, at least in the short term, let's see what sort of deal he can come up with. But if it's an unacceptable deal, you feel, and probably most Ukrainians feel, it is a war worth continuing to fight. You don't, just for me to reiterate the point, you don't want peace at any price. We don't want peace at any price. And more importantly, it doesn't matter what the peace deal is, Putin will break it.

So it doesn't matter if he says to Zelensky, actually, you're right. You're right. Please have Crimea back. I'm so sorry. Here's Donetsk. Please accept my apologies. I'm sorry about the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people I've killed. Even if that were to happen, it could not be trusted. So,

it'll just it's just that you as a historian will know that the history of of ukraine and um soviet oppression and all the people who died in holodomor and so forth so there's this kind of very brutal history of of you know the kremlin slaughtering ukrainians and it's not going to end anytime soon i'm very sad to to say that so i personally don't think that uh

any kind of peace deal can be trusted. Whether that means it's not worth making a peace deal to have some interim pause and try and get some semblance of sanity back amongst the population and the military, I don't know. Maybe it's worth calculating a six-month pause and a temporary peace agreement, even if it's presented as a full-time peace agreement, which it will be, you know. So I really don't know. I really don't know what's going to happen. It's interesting you say that because that's

One of the lines that was given to us by our military contact of the Cartier Brigade, he said, actually, it's a chance for us to regenerate, get stronger as a military and then, you know, continue the struggle to ensure we have.

a just and lasting peace eventually. From Patrick and my perspective, we've always said, and I don't know how many times you listen to the podcast, but we've been saying for a long time, in the end, it's all going to deter. Whether or not Ukrainians are prepared to accept the loss of some of their territory, in the end, it depends on enough security guarantees. And to us, going back to what you said right at the beginning of this conversation, that means membership of NATO. If it's not next year, then in five years' time, but certainly a pathway forward.

to that status with guarantees from the US and others in the interim. Yeah, I totally agree. And I'm even going to stick my neck out further and say that if the West had fully supported

Ukraine in 2022 and ensured that this war ended, fully supported them morally and in terms of arms and weapons and militarily, then I think a lot of what's happened on the world stage to do with Trump and the rise of nationalism, populism, it still would have been there. But I think the world felt enabled to support dictatorships

and enabled to commit genocides when they saw that the genocide in Ukraine was being tolerated. And I think that gave dictators and other countries a green card to perpetuate crimes and all sorts of lies in the past three years effectively.

So I'm very sad that they didn't support, the West didn't fully support Ukraine as they should have done three years ago. Because not only would it have saved Ukrainian lives, I think it would have dramatically changed things on the world stage as well to do with world politics. I think that will be a verdict of history, wouldn't you agree, Saul? Particularly with regard to the Americans. Yeah, you know, probably, Patrick. I mean, what is not concerning to us, but quite eye-opening to us or to me from what you've been saying, Mark, is that

you know we've been trying to gauge people's kind of sense of whether or not the arrival of trump albeit very few people would be natural supporters of trump given what he said about ukraine before in ukraine yet at the same time the possibility of breaking the log jam of this slow death really that that ukraine was enduring given just enough uh weapons to survive sort of but

but losing more of its territory and certainly not enough to win the war, which is sort of what you're hinting at. And then maybe Trump coming in is going to change the calculus. He's the sort of character that Putin doesn't really know how to deal with because he doesn't know what he's going to do next. He's a rogue actor in some ways. And that may not necessarily be a bad thing for Ukraine. But without putting words into your mouth, that doesn't sound like the sort of calculus or calculation you're making.

Normally, I have some intuition about what's going to happen in Ukraine, some vague feeling. And at the moment, I don't. But I can tell you at the end of last year, last year was a really difficult year for me. And almost everyone I know in Ukraine really suffered as a result of, you know, the terrible losses we've been incurring. And it was a real struggle for me to decide to carry on this year.

because everyone was saying it's over, you know, pack your bags, get ready. I'm still here. Lots of my colleagues are still here. My friends are still fighting on the front line. And we've been in this position before. So, you know, I think no matter who's president, Ukraine will carry on fighting. That was great to hear from you, Mark. Good luck with all your projects. We'll do what we can to support them and keep on fighting the good fight. Thank you very much.

Well, that was powerful stuff. The details to Mark's charity are now in the podcast description of this episode, so do consider supporting them if you can. In the meantime, watch out for our episode later this week, in which we will look at the latest in this series of dramatic developments to the story. Goodbye. Goodbye.