261. Emergency Episode: Trump clashes with Zelenskyy
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Hello and welcome to this special edition of Battleground. We're recording this at 11 o'clock on Saturday morning UK time. We thought you'd want to hear our reactions. I'm sure you've all been talking amongst yourselves about what actually occurred and what this all means.

Saul is still away, but friend of the podcast, Roger Morehouse, who listeners will remember well, is here to help out with his thoughts and predictions. Well, we all know why we're here. It's because of that dark scenario that played out in front of the world in the Oval Office in Washington, D.C.

on Friday when the deep tensions between Ukraine and the USA were put on open display and the characters of President Trump and his deputy, J.D. Vance, were revealed in stark and unflattering detail.

All our listeners will have had their own reactions to the footage, shock being the predominant one, I imagine. What did you make of it, Roger? Yeah, but shock is the word, Patrick. It was a very shocking scene. And just to see Zelensky, I think, actually humiliated, I think that's the only word I can use, humiliated in that way, with what, you know, has increasingly seemed like a sort of perversion of the facts, which is what we've had for the

the last few weeks from the Trump administration on this issue. You know, the talk last week, I think it was, where Trump sort of labeled Zelensky as a dictator, and then the criticisms that they weren't holding elections during the war, for example. I mean, it's just, it's sort of almost willfully blind. I can see why there are so many out there who sort of attribute

you know, deeply sinister motives to this. But then that, in a sense, was the sort of the crowning humiliation, I suppose, was him in the Oval Office. And to be fair, he did fight his corner. He did try to, you know, give his case and restore a semblance of honesty to the discussion. But, I mean, what I felt, I thought it was remarkable, he didn't sort of lose his cool altogether, to be honest with you. I think in that situation, being

you know, effectively double teamed by Trump and Vance like that with really quite aggressive questioning in that way. You know, I thought it was a shocking scene. It was indeed, wasn't it? I mean, I wrote a piece last night for the Mail, a commentary piece in which I said it looked like a showdown between a thuggish mafia Don Trump and his fawning henchman Vance.

And them sort of shaking down a recalcitrant shopkeeper who wasn't coming up with the protection money. And I also compared it to a punishment beating delivered on a global stage. I think this sounds like theatrical language, but I think it's pretty much no more than the truth. And of course, making the point that this must have been...

wonderful viewing in the Kremlin where surely they must have run out of champagne by now. Yeah, the Kremlin is obviously the big winners out of this, obviously. Yeah, I mean, what struck me is, again, it brings home this idea and I think this has been sort of adumbrated by a few commentators in the last few months.

that the old ideals that sort of governed the last 80 years of American diplomacy, of supporting democracy, for example, for supporting the rule of law, for supporting the global system, that seems to have gone out the window. And it's gone out the window. I always resist the sort of conspiracy theory stuff. So I'm not going to say it's because of Russian collusion. I think it's much more, in this case, I think it's that Trump, you just alluded to it. I mean, he basically has a sort of a...

we can say gangsterish, but he has a sort of businessman's mind. It's all about the art of the deal, so he says. So he's looked at this arrangement with Ukraine. There's no sort of ideological skin in the game as far as he's concerned. So all it is is what are we getting for our money? And his short answer is nothing. Yeah, I'm not even sure about that, Roger. I'm not sure that, you know, it's clearly not a very good deal, this mineral deal, once it is actually examined by experts. It is not a great deal. I think it's much more to do with his interests

ego, which is, he's one of the great egomaniacs of history. He's up there with Emperor Nero. So my reading of it is that basically he's promised the world that he's going to solve this problem that no one else can in very short order. And standing in his way

is Vladimir Zelensky. And so basically, he just sees him as some jerk who is stopping him from achieving this great triumph. And he doesn't give a damn about security guarantees, the geostrategic picture, generally world security and like that. He just sees Zelensky as someone who is thwarting him. And therefore, he has to be basically beaten up until he agrees to some terrible deal. Yeah, I can see that.

I can see that. Of course, I mean, the deal on the table, if Zelensky and Ukraine want to surrender, they don't need to go to Washington to do that. They can do it in Moscow. And that's effectively what this is. So, you know, I mean, it's just a shameful scene all round. Yeah. And I don't, I mean, in a way, I don't blame Trump because Trump...

is this deluded figure. He's in a class of his own. He's beyond the kind of moral judgments, I think. But Vance is a different kettle of fish altogether. Vance is a rational, intelligent man. And not so long ago, he used to hate Donald Trump, compare him to Hitler. So too did other Trump fanboys like Tucker Carlson, who compared Trump

trump to the antichrist but now they've they've decided to go over to the dark side they made a calculated decision to sell their souls for power in vance's case for money in carlson's case and it won't end well for them i don't think if you look at people there are lots of examples of this in trump's history look at rudy giuliani he used to be an upstanding public prosecutor you know much admired for going after the mafia etc and he ended up as a sort of sleazy disgraced and

bag carrier for Trump, who seems to corrupt all those who come into contact with him. But what do you think is going to happen next now, Roger? It's hazy, I know. It is. I mean, I think there are two in my mind anyway. I mean, I had thought for a long time, you know, what Trump is about in this sense, on one level at least. I don't disagree with anything you've said there at all, Patrick, but on one level at least, you know, he's sort of throwing all of the kaleidoscope up in the air and seeing where it will all land.

And in a sense, and this is why I thought, you know, Vance's speech at Munich a couple of weeks ago, I thought was actually, you know, pretty much bang on the money. I think that, you know, the Europeans have been sort of, you know, freeloading on US largesse in military terms for decades. So I think actually that in a sense of, you know, giving them a shake and saying, come on, get your act together. Think about what you are defending and start trying to defend it. I thought was actually quite, you know, an apt speech.

What we're seeing now, I think, is more than that necessarily just sort of rattling the cage. It looks much more like America, you know, drawing down from its, if you like, ideological and strategic commitments around the world. It might be talking about a reconcentration in the Pacific to sort of face down China. That may well be the case. But...

The logic that comes out of it to me is that Europe really has to step up. And I know we've been saying this for many months on this podcast, and I know you have in my absence as well, but Europe really does need to get its act together, both in terms of some sort of strategic vision and of some massive, massive program of rearmament so that they can not only defend themselves if and when the time comes, but also give Europe

rapid and effective military support to Ukraine in the meantime, because that's obviously going to be drawn down from the US element of that support is going to be drawn down very quickly. So,

The question is, to me, if that's going to be the scenario, then is Europe able to respond? And on that question, I'm not entirely sure. That's my great fear. I think there are too many voices, too many vested interests. There's not enough in the way of a collective clarity of vision to make that happen. You've got sort of the rather more hawkish in the East, which as we know, Poland, the

see the threat from Russia. They know what it's like historically. They've been there, they've done it, they've got the T-shirt and they're now very hawkish. And those that are rather less so and rather more concerned about

about their social programs, their welfare programs, or whatever it is, and don't want to divert large funds to defense in the West of Europe that are happy for America to carry the can. So whether the Europeans can actually step up and fill that gap is an open question. It's one that I would foresee answering in the negative. Yeah, well, certainly people are making the right noises, aren't they? You know, starting at the very top of the European Union, Kaya Callas,

very impressive Estonian politician and diplomat. And of course, as an Estonian, she gets it. You know, she gets what's going, what's at stake. It's the other voices that I'd be more concerned about. Yeah. So she's saying it's become clear the free world needs a new leader. It's up to us Europeans to take this challenge. And of course, what's also, I think, encouraging is the reaction of Frederick Mertz. Before this meltdown in the Oval Office, he was saying that

Merz, of course, being probably Germany's leading Atlanticist, that is, supporter of very, very strong ties with America. He said, I'd never have thought that I would have to say something like this, but it's clear that this government, Donald Trump's government, does not care much about the fate of Europe. Now, that is a devastating utterance from someone, a complete U-turn on everything that Merz has previously held to in his speech.

His political life. So, yeah, with the messages getting through loud and clear, I completely agree with you that it's going to be bloody difficult, excuse my French, to coordinate all this outrage, all this indignation and all these fine intentions into a coherent diplomatic strategy.

economic and above all military policy that actually presents some sort of deterrence. A, it should be helping Ukraine, but also deterring Russia. And in very short order as well. Yeah, we're speaking on Saturday. Tomorrow, we're going to see how serious people are because European leaders are gathering in London. President Zelensky will be there. It's being hosted by Prime Minister Zelensky.

Keir Starmer, the British Prime Minister, who actually appears to be moving into the role of a sort of honest broker between Zelensky and Trump in the aftermath of the scenes in the Oval Office. He's spoken to both of them.

since the blow up and is making positive noises about perhaps repairing that relationship i wish him good luck with that do you see that happening roger um i honestly i don't i think i'm always uh as you know slightly sort of on the pessimistic side a bit bit of glass half empty kind of guy i mean you mentioned friedrich metz who will be assumed to be the incoming chancellor in germany

The problem with all of this is that talk is cheap. And we've been through the talking phase before. We had the so-called Wende, the Zeitenwende in Germany, right at the beginning where German politicians, not least the Chancellor himself, made all the right noises and talked about stepping up and all of that. And to some extent they did, but I don't think the will was necessarily there. And in the case of Mr. Merz as Chancellor coming in, I mean, Germany, I think, is one of the most important players of this, obviously.

you know, he's going to come in most likely with another grand coalition with the SPD in tow anyway. So there's going to be a massive break on, even if he says the right things and tries to do the right things, there's going to be a massive break on what's actually feasible. And break being the right word, of course, because, you know, Germany has this so-called debt break, which they might have to scrap altogether. That will require, you know, bipartisan or multi-partisan support to actually make that happen.

So I just can't quite see how, in a sense, words are easy. And even with Mr. Starmer, I would say words are very easy for him to sort of pose as some sort of, as you say, honest broker in this. I think the proof has to be in what's actually achieved down the line, because there's been far too many words and not enough action all the way through this from Europe. But there is an immediate potential security catastrophe looming in Ukraine, isn't there? I mean...

The sort of language that Trump was using, the threatening tone of it all, you know, basically saying to Ukraine, you're in deep trouble and you're going to get into deeper trouble if you don't watch your step. Well, Zelensky really hasn't. There's no more wiggle room for him, is there? Either they get some sort of concession from Trump on the security guarantees or they don't. And if they don't,

That really seems to be the end of the road to me, in which case you've got to ask yourself, what is Trump going to do next? I think he's entirely capable of turning off the military support tap, in which case the inventory they've got of Patriot missiles, which defend Ukrainian cities, and things like ATAKAMs, which actually give the Ukrainian military a bit of aggressive capacity to

those will fade out pretty quickly, won't they? They'll get through them. Even if they husband them, they're not going to last more than six months, perhaps, at the very best I would have thought. The same kit isn't available in European inventory. So you're actually looking potentially, I would say,

at a significant uptick on tempo on the battlefield, with the Russians pushing forward, grabbing significant chunks of Ukrainian territory, and getting back into a sort of, you know, this is going to be decided by force of arms situation.

Trump stepping back said, well, you know, I held out this great opportunity and Zelensky didn't want peace. Putin wants peace. And he's now just trying to establish it in his own way. You know, there's never a breath of criticism. This is extraordinary. There is never a word of criticism.

of Putin, even though all the talk is constant reiteration, Putin wants peace. Yet meanwhile, he's sending missiles into Ukrainian cities. It's sort of surreal. It is surreal. As I said, it's a sort of inversion of reality. And that's why what made yesterday such sort of depressing viewing. It was almost Kafkaesque, wasn't it? And that seems to be very symptomatic of where we are. I agree. I mean, short term, militarily,

Ukraine is going to have to sort of, you know, see what is achievable in terms of defending itself. I fear in the same way as you do that, that there's going to be, you know, some reverses coming on the battlefield. And then it's the question of how that plays out in any ongoing behind the scenes sort of diplomatic negotiations.

I mean, Ukraine still has that chunk of Kursk Oblast, which the Russians seem to be curiously unable to wrest back from them, from Ukrainian control. So whether that can be used in some way as a bargaining chip, which I think, if we're honest, is probably the intention behind that operation all the way along. So whether that actually cuts any ice in sort of future negotiations or not, I don't know. But as we know, I mean, the intention of the Russian invasion ultimately is

was to prevent that Ukrainian pivot westward to Western institutions, to membership of NATO and all the rest of it. If Russia is now sort of unfettered in its ambitions, as it seems to be by this new Trump administration,

then they will revert to the original intention, which is essentially to depose Zelensky, to take over Ukraine effectively, to impose another puppet government on there, which is Russian friendly, which will stop all of that Western pivot going on. So if we follow that sort of train of thought through, it all looks very grim for Ukraine. And very good for Putin, who would have thought

even a couple of months ago, he was basically on the ropes, wasn't he, Roger? And now here he is. He's about to have his hand cut

raised in the ring in victory by the referee Donald Trump who sort of basically rigged the match ever since getting into office. I hope that metaphor isn't too depressing for everyone. I think we'll wrap it up there. Thanks very much for listening. Join us on Wednesday for the next episode of Battleground 45 and of course again on Friday unless events intervene which at this rate that they're occurring at may well be the case. Goodbye.

Hi there, I'm Al Murray, co-host of We Have Ways of Making You Talk, the world's premier Second World War history podcast from Goldhanger. And I'm James Holland, best-selling World War II historian, and together we tell the best stories from the war.

This time, we're doing a deep dive into the last major attack by the Nazis on the West, the Battle of the Bulge. And what's so fascinating about this story is we've been able to show how quite a lot of the popular history about this battle is kind of the wrong way around, isn't it, Jim? The whole thing is a disaster from the start. Even Hitler's plans for the attack are insane and divorced from reality. Well, you're so right. But what we can do is celebrate this as an American success story for the

ages. From their generals at the top to the GIs on the front line, full of gumption and grit, the Bold should be remembered as a great victory for the USA. And if this sounds good to you, we've got a short taste for you here. Search We Have Ways wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks.

Yeah. Anyway, so who is Obersturmbannfuhrer Joachim Peiper? But I see his jaunty hat and I just think... And his SS skull and crossbones. Well, I see his reputation and I think, you know, you might be a handsome devil, but the emphasis is on the devil bit rather than the handsome. Anyway.

Be that as may, he's 29 years old and he's got a very interesting career, really, because he comes from a pretty right-wing family, let's face it. He's joined the SS at a pretty early stage. He's very international socialism. He's also been Himmler's adjutant. He took a little bit of time off in the summer of 1940 to go and fight with the 1st Waffen-SS Panzer Division.

Yeah. Did pretty well. Went back to being Himmler's adjutant. Then went off and commanded troops in the Eastern Front. Rose up to be a pretty young regimental commander. I mean, there's not many people that age. Or an Obersturmbannfuhrer, which is a sort of colonel. Yes, you see, what must it have been like if you're in...

If Himmler's adjutant turns up and he's been posted to you as an officer, do you think, well, he only got that job because of his connections? For Piper, it must have been always, he's always having to prove himself, surely, because he has turned up. He's not worked his way through the ranks of the Waffen-SS. He's dolloped in, having come from head office, as it were.

It must be a peculiar position to be in, right? He's got lots to prove, right? That's what I'm saying. Yeah, and he's from a sort of middle-class background as well. Yeah. But he's got an older brother who's had mental illness and attempted suicide and never really recovers and actually has died of TB eventually in 1942. He's got a younger brother called Horne.

He's also joined the SS and Totenkopfverbande and died in a never really properly explained accident in Poland in 1941. Piper gains a sort of growing reputation on the Eastern Front for being kind of very inspiring, fearless, you know, obviously courageous. You know, all the guys love him, all that kind of stuff. But he's also orders the entire the destruction of entire village of Krasnaya Polyana in a kind of revenge killing by Russian partisans.

Yeah. And his unit becomes known as the Blowtorch Battalion because of his penchant for touching Russian villages. So he's got all the gongs. He's got Iron Cross, Second Class, First Class, Cross of Gold, Knight's Cross. Did very well at Kursk. Briefly in Northern Italy, actually. Then in Ukraine. Then in Normandy, he suffers a nervous breakdown. Yeah.

Yeah. And he's relieved of his command on the 2nd of August. And he's hospitalized from September to October. So he's not in command during Operation Lutich. And then he rejoins 1st SS Panzer Regiment as its commander again in October 1944. It's really, really odd. I mean... But isn't that interesting, though? Because if you're a Lancer, if you're an ordinary soldier, you're not allowed to have a nervous breakdown. You don't get hospitalized. You don't get time off.

How you could interpret this is this is a sort of Nazi princeling, isn't he? He's him as adjutant. He's demonstrated the necessary Nazi zeal on the Eastern Front and all this sort of stuff. It comes to Normandy where they're losing. Why else would he have a nervous breakdown? He's shown all the zeal and application in the Nazi manner up to this point, and they're losing, you know. And because he's a knob, you know, because he's well connected, he gets to be hospitalized if he has a nervous breakdown. He isn't told like an ordinary German soldier, there's no such thing as combat fatigue, mate.

go back to work. Yes, and it's a nervous breakdown, not combat fatigue. Well, yes, of course. But, you know, what's the difference? One SS soldier said of him, Piper was the most dynamic man I ever met. He just got things done. Yeah. You get this image I have of him of having this kind of sort of slightly mischievous

Manic energy. Yeah. Kind of. He's virulently National Socialist. He's got this great reputation. He's damned if anyone's going to tarnish it. You know, he's a driver. You know, all those things. He's trying to make the will triumph, isn't he? He's working towards the Fuhrer. He's imbued with... He knows what's expected of him. Extreme violence and cruelty and pushing his men on. I mean, he's sort of... He's the Fuhrer Princip writ large, isn't he? As an SS officer. Yeah. Yeah.

Which is why cruelty and extreme violence are bundled in to wherever he goes, basically.