262. US Pauses Military Aid to Ukraine - Emergency Episode
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Hello and welcome to Battleground. It's good to be back, Patrick. I've been away for the last two podcasts, but an awful lot's happened since then. Patrick and I were about to record an episode of Battleground 45, which indeed we will do in a few minutes. But of course, the news has come in and it's coming in every day, turning the conflict in ever more shocking directions.

And the latest is that Trump suspended all military aid to Ukraine. It's really hard to say those words, Patrick. I never really thought we'd get to this point. We saw it as a possibility. I think the Trumpites said,

last autumn, if they got in, if Trump actually became president for the second time, one of the ways of putting pressure on the Ukrainians to make a deal was the threat to cut off aid. But we really didn't think it would come to this, did we? It was a doomsday scenario, wasn't it, Saul? And here it is, you know, it's just happened. Now they're saying...

Some voices are saying from the White House that this is a pause, we're not cutting this off forever. So at first sight, it appears to be a continuation of the bully boy tactics we saw in the Oval Office last Friday. This time, it's actually following through.

by putting a stranglehold really on Volodymyr Zelensky's room for maneuver. So basically, in practical terms, that means everything basically grinds to a halt. All military activity using American weapons systems relies on supply chains. So we can see attack on Heimars, parts for Abrams tanks, all this sort of stuff, ammunition supply.

over the next couple of weeks dry up, which will severely degrade not just Ukraine's ability to attack Russians, but actually to defend themselves. So this is a pressure of the most brutal kind, which is

can only, it would seem, be relieved by some act of abasement by Zelensky to grovel to the White House, essentially. A, do you see him doing that? B, how low does he have to go in order to actually get Donald's blessing to resume talks?

Well, very low. I mean, what seems to have prompted this, Patrick, kind of apart from the, you know, the preamble, the disastrous meeting last Friday in the White House, is a kind of almost an offhand comment Zelensky made yesterday that actually no peace was a very far way away. And then Trump immediately responded to that on his truth social saying, well, you know, anyone who thinks that might not be around for too long. Again, as you say, Patrick, more bully boy tactics there.

In our view, of course, Zelensky's being realistic. We actually see the positions between the Russians and the Ukrainians being incredibly far apart, not least because Putin and his minions have made absolutely no indication that they're prepared to

to do a deal that even Trump suggested might be acceptable to the Ukrainians, and that would be a freezing on the front lines. They're talking about completing all their goals, the goals they had at the beginning of the war. And if that doesn't mean the complete abasement of Ukraine, it certainly means the recovery of all four provinces that Russia annexed in 2022, which, of course, to the Ukrainian people would be unacceptable.

unacceptable, not least because some of those territories are still, in fact, a big chunk of them, particularly in the case of Kherson and Zaporizhia, are still controlled by the Ukrainians. So it was a realistic statement. It's obviously riled Trump, who has promised the world he's going to do this deal. He's making ever more sympathetic noises in relation to the Russians. He's talking about at least discussing the possibility of dropping some of the sanctions. I mean, you know,

discussing dropping some of the sanctions when we still haven't heard what the Russians are prepared to concede in terms of peace. It's utter madness in terms of negotiating tactics and just heaps the pressure on the Ukrainians, I feel, Patrick, don't you? Yeah, I mean, it's very hard to establish what's without making kind of assumptions that would seem to undermine Trump's

desire to be a peacemaker it's very hard to see where this is going because if you actually look at it what what trump appears to want is literally peace at any price or something that can be called peace at any price which means in effect ukraine handing over its mineral rights now this i think this mineral rights thing was a red herring in terms of the actual benefit it will bring the

to the United States, but it's now taken on enormous symbolic importance, which is much greater, perhaps, than its actual material value. So they've got to do that, and they've got to stop fighting. So they've got to say, okay, you can have whatever the Russians have taken, they will keep. And that will then enable Trump to claim that this is the fulfillment of his promise, even

It's essentially all about him. It's not actually in America's, we've talked about it endlessly, it's not in America's interest at all, but it is enormously to the benefit of the Trump ego. So we are in an insane situation where one man's grandiosity is going to doom an entire country and perhaps impinge on other European nations'

freedom sovereignty make essentially make life hell for russia's immediate neighbors going forward but there we are that's that's do you see it differently i mean i i can't see any underlying strategy some hidden strategy in all these moves day by day there's another body blow to ukraine that can be explained in any other way

Well, at least as far as the United States is concerned, things are looking pretty grim because the Trump administration has now shown its true face, which is that it almost certainly does want to withdraw from any responsibility for security in Europe.

The good news, Patrick, if there is any, and I know I'm occasionally accused of being the overly optimistic one on the podcast, but the good news is it really has shaken up Europe and the UK. Now, we've been pretty staunch in our support through all of this, but I bet you both of us were wondering whether a Labour government was going to be as strong in its support of Ukraine. The good news is Keir Starmer and his Labour administration have absolutely carried on the policy of the

successive conservative governments, starting with Boris, of course, when the full-scale invasion started in 2022. And if anything good has come about all of this, it's that we and some of the other key European countries are still staunching in their support of Ukraine. Now, will this make up for the loss of

U.S. weaponry? Of course not. But will it allow the Ukrainians to keep fighting while all this madness continues? I think it will, actually. I mean, in terms of stockpiles, some people are suggesting, some of the analysts are suggesting this morning that Ukraine still has the capability to fight on for another six months with what it's already got from the U.S., even if the taps are turned off. We don't know if that's absolutely accurate.

And obviously it will affect them in some ways. But if the Europeans can really be made to understand that this is a major emergency, and that seems to have been the case. We had the meeting, of course, in London on Sunday, and there are more meetings planned for later this week. It might be possible for the Europeans to step up.

After all, Donald Tusk came out with a great line, didn't he, Patrick, a couple of days ago, I think, during the London meeting, which is, why is it that 500 million Europeans are relying on 300 million Americans to defend them against 140 million Russians? And if you put it in that perspective, just in terms of manpower, let alone the absolutely massive advantage Europe's got in economic power over Russia, things do begin to look a tiny bit brighter.

Yes, I'm beginning to feel this tiny little glow of optimism stirring very deep inside me. I have to say, I've got to keep this mood going. But I'm afraid I already look back at America. I think Trump is... What a really depressing aspect of this is that Trump is under virtually no domestic pressure to take a different line or to step back or even take a pause for breath. So I'm just thinking about...

Those American presidents we still have with us, people who are recognizably members of the human race, people like Bill Clinton, people like George W. Bush, people like Barack Obama. I think we'll leave Joe Biden out of this because I think his contribution would not be terribly helpful. But those three, why have they not come together and say, this is un-American, this should stop? Nothing like that. On the opinion polling, Trump has actually had a bit of an uptick because of all.

this. So he has nothing to fear from domestic politicians or public opinion. This is really, really bad news. And our tactical strategy, the Keir Starmer strategy of making nice to Trump is not really a sustainable way of doing things. I mean, of course, because of the massive imbalance in power, he has to treat him with kid gloves, but it doesn't really get you very far, does it? So

Having schmoozed both Keir Starmer and Emmanuel Macron last week in the White House, all seemed sweetness and light. He's now insulting them again today, saying they're hypocrites. They're still asking for an American backstop to their peacekeeping force, something, of course, which the Russians have already said had absolutely no intention of allowing. And so it doesn't sort of get you very far. He's completely denying the reality of the situation, which is that there can be no peace without Americans.

American security guarantee. So that is their position that they're sticking to

So where do you see this going from here, Saul? I mean, it seems to me that there's a very strong prospect of Trump losing patience with all this and just stepping back fairly soon. Yeah, that's one possibility. And I think they'll be rushing around in Kiev today to try and work out the best way to move forward. I mean, one scenario is that, as you've suggested at the beginning of this emergency podcast, Patrick, Zelensky is going to have to bend the knee, go back,

cap in hand and ask for that minerals deal. But that's only one part of the equation, isn't it? We've already spoken about the difficulty of actually coming to some kind of peace agreement. But if we also accept that Trump needs gestures, he needs, you know, he needs to see that Zelensky is sorry for what he's done, whether we feel he's got anything to be sorry for is another matter. That's irrelevant. Trump clearly needs to see that.

So I think we may possibly in the next few days see a slightly more mollifying approach from the Ukrainians. And that will be step one. Yes, we are prepared to sign the minerals deal. Yes, we do want peace. Now let's talk Turkey with the Russians. But of course, again, as you suggested, Patrick, I think they're going to have to agree to some kind of

pause of fighting on the front line. What will be interesting, actually, if they do go down that track is how the Russians react. Because what we said all along, Patrick, is that we felt the Russians were going to overplay their hand and Trump is going to turn against them. The opposite's happened so far, but they still haven't really been pushed into any particular corner.

One last thought. The conspiracy theorists are suggesting that Trump knows the Russians aren't going to do a deal and therefore there is no deal to be done. And he needs to wriggle out of his position in which he said it was possible. And the Ukrainians are kind of the perfect patsies in all of this. That really is the doomsday scenario, because it would mean that Trump is allowed to pull out. Having said he tried to get peace,

withdraw all military aids and leave Ukraine to the wolves. And then we really are down to the scenario I was talking about, which is Europe against Russia. Can Europe step up and replace, obviously not all the military equipment that was going to Ukraine, but at least some of it allow Ukraine to fight on. Certainly the message is coming out of Ukraine already today. There's a report

in the telegraph that the ukrainians on the front line are vowing that they will fight on and you wouldn't expect them to say anything different to be honest would you patrick judging from our recent visits all i would say that the uh there are going to be plenty of people prepared to carry on the fight come what may okay we'll end it there um if there's more breaking news in there almost it will be we'll be back to keep you updated with our observations goodbye

Hi there, I'm Al Murray, co-host of We Have Ways of Making You Talk, the world's premier Second World War history podcast from Goldhanger. And I'm James Holland, best-selling World War II historian, and together we tell the best stories from the war.

This time, we're doing a deep dive into the last major attack by the Nazis on the West, the Battle of the Bulge. And what's so fascinating about this story is we've been able to show how quite a lot of the popular history about this battle is kind of the wrong way around, isn't it, Jim? The whole thing is a disaster from the start. Even Hitler's plans for the attack are insane and divorced from reality. Well, you're so right. But what we can do is celebrate this as an American success story for the

ages. From their generals at the top to the GIs on the front line, full of gumption and grit, the Bold should be remembered as a great victory for the USA. And if this sounds good to you, we've got a short taste for you here. Search We Have Ways wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks.

Yeah. Anyway, so who is Obersturmbannfuhrer Joachim Peiper? But I see his jaunty hat and I just think... And his SS skull and crossbones. Well, I see his reputation and I think, you know, you might be a handsome devil, but the emphasis is on the devil bit rather than the handsome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway.

Be that as may, he's 29 years old and he's got a very interesting career, really, because he comes from a pretty right-wing family, let's face it. He's joined the SS at a pretty early stage. He's very international socialism. He's also been Himmler's adjutant. He took a little bit of time off in the summer of 1940 to go and fight with the 1st Waffen-SS Panzer Division.

Yeah. Did pretty well. Went back to being Himmler's adjutant. Then went off and commanded troops in the Eastern Front. Rose up to be a pretty young regimental commander. I mean, there's not many people that age. Or an Obersturmbannfuhrer, which is a sort of colonel. Yes, you see, what must it have been like if you're in...

If Himmler's adjutant turns up and he's been posted to you as an officer, do you think, well, he only got that job because of his connections? For Piper, it must have been always, he's always having to prove himself, surely, because he has turned up. He's not worked his way through the ranks of the Waffen-SS. He's dolloped in, having come from head office, as it were.

It must be a peculiar position to be in, right? He's got lots to prove, right? That's what I'm saying. Yeah, and he's from a sort of middle-class background as well. Yeah. But he's got an older brother who's had mental illness and attempted suicide and never really recovers and actually has died of TB eventually in 1942. He's got a younger brother called Horne.

He's also joined the SS and Totenkopfverbande and died in a never really properly explained accident in Poland in 1941. Piper gains a sort of growing reputation on the Eastern Front for being kind of very inspiring, fearless, you know, obviously courageous. You know, all the guys love him, all that kind of stuff. But he's also orders the entire the destruction of entire village of Krasnaya Polyana in a kind of revenge killing by Russian partisans.

Yeah. And his unit becomes known as the Blowtorch Battalion because of his penchant for touching Russian villages. So he's got all the gongs. He's got Iron Cross, Second Class, First Class, Cross of Gold, Knight's Cross. Did very well at Kursk. Briefly in Northern Italy, actually. Then in Ukraine. Then in Normandy, he suffers a nervous breakdown. Yeah.

Yeah. And he's relieved of his command on the 2nd of August. And he's hospitalized from September to October. So he's not in command during Operation Lutich. And then he rejoins 1st SS Panther Regiment as its commander again in October 1944. It's really, really odd. I mean... But isn't that interesting, though? Because if you're a Lancer, if you're an ordinary soldier, you're not allowed to have a nervous breakdown. You don't get hospitalized. You don't get time off.

How you could interpret this is this is a sort of Nazi princeling, isn't he? He's him as adjutant. He's demonstrated the necessary Nazi zeal on the Eastern Front and all this sort of stuff. It comes to Normandy where they're losing. Why else would he have a nervous breakdown? He's shown all the zeal and application in the Nazi manner up to this point, and they're losing, you know. And because he's a knob, you know, because he's well connected, he gets to be hospitalized if he has a nervous breakdown. He isn't told like an ordinary German soldier, there's no such thing as combat fatigue, mate.

go back to work. Yes, and it's a nervous breakdown, not combat fatigue. Well, yes, of course. But, you know, what's the difference? One SS soldier said of him, Piper was the most dynamic man I ever met. He just got things done. Yeah. You get this image I have of him of having this kind of sort of slightly mischievous

Manic energy. Yeah. Kind of. He's virulently National Socialist. He's got this great reputation. He's damned if anyone's going to tarnish it. You know, he's a driver. You know, all those things. He's trying to make the will triumph, isn't he? He's working towards the Fuhrer. He's imbued with... He knows what's expected of him. Extreme violence and cruelty and pushing his men on. I mean, he's sort of... He's the Fuhrer Princip writ large, isn't he? As an SS officer. Yeah. Yeah.

Which is why cruelty and extreme violence are bundled in to wherever he goes, basically.