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Hello and welcome to Battleground 45 with me, Patrick Bishop. Today we're going to discuss one of the great moments of 80 years ago, the 25th of April 1945 and the meeting of American and Soviet troops on the River Elbe, thus linking the two great forces closing on Hitler's Germany from the west and the east. It happened in and around a town called Torgau in northern Saxony on the banks of the Elbe, about 80 odd miles south of Berlin.
It was a joyous moment, and a hugely symbolic one. Here were the armies of two utterly opposed ideologies literally joining hands in brotherhood, united not just in a hatred of Hitler and Nazism, but in what, for a moment or two at least, looks like a spirit of positive humanity. They called it the spirit of Turgow.
Would it be too cynical to say we're seeing it in a new and strange form today in the apparent amity between the Trump White House and the Putin Kremlin? Well, that's for another podcast perhaps.
Talking about it with me today is Saul David, who is currently engaged on a book dealing with the last months of the war with the suitably Wagnerian title of Twilight of the Gods. It was a great moment, wasn't it, Saul? I was looking at some of the pictures. Lots of photographers there, of course, a lot of war correspondents up with the
the American Army, and of course the Red Army. And you've got endless images of, you know, beaming young junior officers, Red Army officers, American officers, shaking hands with every sign of genuine pleasure in each other's company. There's a marvelous picture of a line of soldiers, one
alternatively a Red Army guy, a US infantryman, linking arms, walking down the main street of Turgot. And it was, you know, I suppose along with the liberation of Paris, one of those moments that really the free world, everyone fighting together,
for freedom, albeit of a strange kind on the Soviet side, thought this is, you know, it's almost over. It was all worth it, etc. It was a great moment, Patrick. There's no doubt about it. The Soviets had been fighting against the
German onslaught since, of course, the invasion in the summer of 1941. And they'd expended enormous numbers of lives in getting this far. We'll never know exactly how many because just like today, they don't really release their official casualty figures. But we think in the region of about 10 million servicemen. So it's an astonishing sort of bloodletting determination by Stalin to get his revenge, to get to Berlin first. And actually, the meeting on the Elbe
is quite interesting because I hope we'll have a chance to discuss the possibility that the Allies could have got to Berlin first. They chose not to, much to Churchill's fury. But nevertheless, it was an extraordinary symbolic moment because, of course, while the Russians had been, or the Soviets, I should say, had been dying in such huge numbers coming from east to west, the Allies had also expended a considerable number of lives going the opposite direction.
direction. It's interesting that the Western allies are often accused of husbanding the lives of their men as if that's a bad thing to let the Russians take all the casualties. But in reality, the Americans alone had suffered a million casualties, admittedly not all of them dead, since the D-Day landings. And it's also true that the last year of the war, which is the subject of my forthcoming book, which you kindly mentioned, Patrick, ever
emphasizes the fact that half the casualties of the whole of the Second World War, certainly involving the Americans, the British and the Soviets, were incurred in this last year of the war. And the Germans, of course, were incurred in this last year of the war. So it's an extraordinarily bloody story, but one that, you know, had immense symbolic significance, as you pointed out at this meeting on the Torgau. Already, I should add, though, that the
the cracks in the edifice of American-Soviet friendship were already beginning to show, as indeed they are, Patrick, during the rather shaky peace negotiations between the Americans and the Russians over Ukraine. Let's just go back to the actual moment that morning, a foggy morning, Wednesday, April 25th. Tell us actually how it happened, how the hands were joined and where it took place.
I mean, what's extraordinary about this meeting at Torgau, Patrick, is that there is a certain amount of myth involved because the guy who led the detachment of Americans that met up with the Soviets was a character called 2nd Lieutenant William D. Robertson of the 1st 273rd Infantry. And he's leading a relatively small patrol of just four men into Torgau. And
And in Torgau itself, bar a few really slave laborers and some drunken German soldiers who weren't going to put up much of a fight and were sort of brushed aside, the town was deserted. But they could hear gunfire coming from the river. So moving towards the river and lacking the green flares that would have identified them as friendly, this had been agreed with the Soviets in advance. Robertson and his men broke into an apothecary shop, so a chemist's, and found enough
paint to construct makeshift stars and stripes from a bed sheet. They then climbed to the top of a spectacular 15th century castle, the Schloss Hartenfell, which was close to the river. And then they unfurled their flag, shouting rather hopefully, ceasefire Americans, Amerikanski, we have no flares. Now the Soviets...
trigger happy as ever, responded with firing red flares, which was their agreed signal. But when there was no response with a green signal, they opened up on the Schloss with machine gun bullets. So it could have all ended very badly. Robertson and his small detachment had to duck down. But the impasse was finally broken by a released Soviet plane
prisoner of war, an officer named Titov, who was able to actually speak to his Soviet comrades on the other side of the river. The two sides then agreed to meet. And you had this extraordinary moment when Roberts and his men crawled on all fours across a semi-destroyed bridge. The Germans, of course, as they withdrew, had tried to destroy a lot of the bridges over the Elbe. And they finally made their way across and met a man called Sergeant Nikolai Andreev and some of
his men, they then embrace or make their way to the Soviet bank where they have a kind of impromptu lunch of sardines and cognac. And at some point, this very famous photograph of Robertson greeting an officer, a Soviet officer of the 175th Rifle Regiment, was taken. And this is the photograph that's later flashed around the world. Now, it all seems...
ideal, doesn't it? But the problem with this story is this was not the first meeting between the Americans and the Soviets that day. So tell us about the real first encounter. It's interconnected because that same morning, another patrol of Jeeps, and this was from the
second 273rd Infantry Regiment. That was part of the 69th Infantry Division. So in other words, the sister regiment had sent another patrol led by another 21-year-old Puerto Rican-born First Lieutenant Arnold Kotzebue. He'd been sent a little bit further to the south. So the two units are not directly located in the same place. And they moved towards a village called Lequetz, two miles west of the Elba River. So not
quite on the Elba. And it's as they were entering Lekwets that they noticed a horseman riding into the courtyard of one of the houses on the main street, dressed in a uniform they didn't recognize. So they followed the rider, almost confident they had met a Soviet soldier. And before long, he was talking with the foreign workers abducted by the Germans. It was 11.30 a.m. And this is the moment that the first link up between the Americans and the Soviet
troops was established. So you might ask the question, well, why isn't this the moment that the photograph was taken? And why don't we remember Kotzebue as being the man who made the link up? Well, the reason is that when they actually radio in the fact that they've just made contact with the Soviets,
There's a mistake as to where the actual location is. The subsequent radio message to Kotzebue's command post confuses the place he's actually in, which is Strelja, with Groba, which is four miles south. And when an army reconnaissance plane
flies over that location and takes ground fire without spotting Soviets, they assume the Germans are still in control and the original report is inaccurate. So it's one of these classic moments in history, Patrick, where the actual link-up by Kotzebue is never identified at the time. And even today, you will read history books and accounts online that Robertson was the first man who made the link-up with the Soviets. I don't suppose it really matters historically.
It did take place that day. It did take place by a member of the 273rd Infantry Regiment. The Russians were from kind of sister units. But nevertheless, if we're going to be accurate about these things, it's Kotzebue who's the man who actually makes contact. And importantly, I suppose, Patrick, because there will be celebrations this year on the 25th in Torgau, it's important to note that the initial link-up was not actually in Torgau. It was a little bit further south. Well, just to make matters more complicated...
in the way these things were done in those days. But the credit wasn't awarded to these very junior officers by the propaganda machine, was it? When the news was released simultaneously in London, Moscow, Washington, neither of these guys, Kotzebue or Robertson, got a mention. Instead, the meeting was referred to as an encounter between the US and the Soviet Union.
divisional commanders. The American was Major General Emile Reinhardt. This actually didn't take place until four o'clock in the afternoon of the 26th, i.e. the following day. And this was presented by the propaganda outlets as the first meeting of the Allied forces. Now, of course, this was a real big media circus, a swarm of reporters there, including the
Martha Gellhorn, who with her wonderful eye for detail, great, great reporter. Tell us what she said, because that's a very nice little vignette there. Yeah, I mean, it's tremendous, isn't it? And of course, this brings into sharp focus your area of business, Patrick, which is war reporting. And she was an extraordinary woman, Martha Gellhorn, with an amazing kind of backstory. Girlfriend, I think, of the
That's right, isn't it, Patrick? She was a girlfriend of...
And he was already hooked up with another female journalist, his last third and last wife. So, yeah, but she was there from the beginning. She was in Finland in 1940 and saw it right through to the bitter end.
Yeah. And anyway, she comes up with this lovely quote as she as she has a look at the Russians and writes, they all looked as if they hadn't had time for a bath since Stalingrad, which took place more than two years earlier. But we're wearing tunics covered with handsome enamel decorations for killing Germans.
The GIs, meanwhile, swapped Zippo lighters and nail clippers for the lacquered red stars on Soviet caps. And it's this lovely kind of detail provided by the war reporters. But as you say, Patrick, it's extraordinary to think that for a moment, certainly at the time, most people thought the link up took place on the 26th. It actually took place, as I've just mentioned, a day earlier, and it took place with Kotzebue,
initially and then Robertson a little bit later. Well, needless to say, all the allied leaders were keen to get him on the act. So in London, Churchill is quoted as saying, we meet in true and victorious comradeship and with inflexible resolve to fulfill our purpose and our duty. Let us all march forward upon the foe. US President Harry S. Truman, of course, he'd only been imposed since the 12th of
April, when Roosevelt had died unexpectedly, cautioned this is not the hour of final victory in Europe, but the hour draws near, the hour for which all American people, all the British people and all the Soviet people have toiled and prayed for for so long. And of course, everyone's waiting to hear about what's happened to Hitler. The Americans, interesting enough, and this comes into their decision not to march on Berlin, were convinced that he was setting up
what was known as a southern redoubt in the Alps. But of course, everyone was waiting for the final moment where he's either captured or more likely killed. And in Moscow, there's a 324 gun salute fired 24 times on Stalin's order in honor of the victory of the freedom-loving peoples over Germany. Not sure the Poles would have agreed about that in relation to the Soviets, Patrick, but Stalin added...
Our task and our duty are to complete the destruction of the enemy, to force him to lay down his arms and surrender unconditionally, which, of course, was the Western Allies' determination agreed at Casablanca a couple of years earlier. OK, we're going to take a break there. Do join us in part two to hear what Saul had to say next about this enthralling episode. Campfire season's back, and that means s'mores.
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Welcome back. So all eyes now sort of on Berlin, aren't they? This has been a big, big strategic wrangle between the Brits on one side and the Americans on the other, and of course the Soviets on the other side of the picture. Tell us about that, because this is a very, very important thing, isn't it? This is going to shape, or in the eyes of Churchill anyway, is going to shape how things play out. Berlin will fall, that is clear, and his determination or his wish
which he's not in a position to deliver given the imbalance of forces, is that the Western allies get there first. So tell us about that particular debate and the realities of the situation on the ground. I think a lot of people at the time and since actually have mistakenly assumed that it was inevitable the Soviets were going to get there first.
It is fair to say that it certainly looked that way. Now, if we go back to the last great Soviet offensive that was from the Vistula to the Oder, they had got to the River Oder, which is just 50 or so miles from Berlin at the beginning of February. So, you know, all logic would have told the Western allies that the Soviets are going to get there first. But the Soviets now pause.
And they don't launch their next offensive against Berlin until the 16th of April. Now, this is as middle as nine days before the meeting at Torgau. But if we go back to the thinking among the Western allies, in particular Eisenhower's strategy, you realize that by the end of March, by which time they've got across the Rhine River,
He now puts his strategy into place and it's to leave Berlin to the Russians for the reasons I've just given, because they assume they're bound to get there first. Instead, he orders a series of advances that are going to go as far as the Elbe and the Mulder River, which is which is why the Americans are there by the time of the link up. They're also going to head towards Hamburg and Denmark.
And finally, having reduced the rear pocket, they're going to head towards this so-called southern redoubt. Now, it's really interesting that Ike has got some pretty dodgy intelligence that this is what the Germans are going to do. Well, actually, there was a plan to move Hitler back to Berchtesgaden, Patrick.
But he never did go back. There was never a serious attempt to get any kind of Nazi forces in this southern Redoubt. And it was all, you know, a figment of Ike's imagination, or was it? Because the other thing in the back of his mind is, I don't want to throw away unnecessarily American and British lives in the capture of Berlin. He was absolutely convinced.
that if they do drive for Berlin, they're going to lose an awful lot of lives. How many? At least 100,000. That was the figure that Bradley... Bradley, by the way, his deputy, army group commander, was also of a similar mind. Let's not bother going for Berlin. But the important point to make here, Patrick, before we discuss the possibility of getting to Berlin, is that
Ultimately, it should have been a political decision, not a military decision. In other words, the political leaders should have decided on the strategy because we're talking about much bigger things than the winning of the war, which was inevitable anyway. We're talking about post-victory settlement. And all this had been thrashed out anyway, hadn't it? I mean, basically, the point had been ceded at the last meeting of the big three, the
in Yalta back in February, that the Russians or the Soviets were going to basically control that big swathe of Eastern Germany, and the rest was going to be divvied up between the Americans, the Brits and the French. So that the point had already been established. And so who got there first was more a matter of prestige than it was of actual real politics. No, I don't think so, Patrick. What had been agreed at Yalta is a kind of rough
division of the spoils, spheres of influence in Europe. But certainly the future of Germany hadn't been properly thrashed out. There was a lot of talk about dismembering Germany. Churchill was determined that that wouldn't be the case. He was already beginning to see Germany as a bulwark against a Soviet advance after the end of the war. And there was a feeling that Churchill was absolutely convinced if we can get to Berlin, we can stop the Soviets extending their influence deep into Germany. Yes, there was an agreement that the
for, you know, a period at the end of the war. You know, you're going to have the Allied Commission in which Germany was going to be divided up between the four Allied powers, France included. But the long-term settlement was going to be a de facto on-the-ground scenario. So it did matter that the Allies got to Vienna, that they got to Prague, and they got to Berlin before the Soviets. And in none of those cases did that actually come to pass. So Churchill's feeling was, let's get to Berlin and
let's be in possession of the place, let's avoid some of the atrocities. I mean, that alone would have been something to achieve. And let's imprint on the Soviets our determination that they are not going to dominate the centre of Europe. Yeah, it's rather against the run of Plato. As you say, Roosevelt had died a couple of weeks before, but...
the direction of travel was all pretty much established, wasn't it? The Americans were going to, when it came down to it, were going to side with the Soviets rather than Brits. But do you think Ike was right in this one? Well, you know,
With the benefit of hindsight, we can see what happens next. We can see the Iron Curtain coming down. We can see the Grand Alliance breaking up incredibly quickly. And we can also see that Churchill was beginning to understand the long-term consequences of the Soviets' attack.
being allowed to advance too deeply into Europe. Yes, it would have required the expenditure of more lives, but there was a tiny window of opportunity which then closed very rapidly, which was not taken. And it was not taken because Eisenhower had already
predetermined in his own mind that there was this issue with the southern redoubt and he didn't want to risk the lives of Western servicemen by capturing Berlin. But there was very definitely an opportunity to do it. And it links to the story of the Elbe because
even before the Soviets launched their final attack on Berlin on the 16th of April, a couple of days earlier, the Western allies had reached the Elbe River and had got over the Elbe River. So they're relatively close to Berlin at that point. And that's the stage at which there was an opportunity.
At 8 p.m. on the 11th of April, Simpson's 9th Army, that's General Simpson's U.S. 9th Army, had got across the Elbe at Schönebeck south of Magdeburg. And a couple of other bridgeheads are then formed very close to that. It's at this point that he...
Simpson asked permission of Bradley, his immediate commander, if he can drive towards Berlin. He's absolutely convinced he can get there in just two days. Now, we'll never know if that was the case. But what we do know is that the available German forces were screening Berlin from the east and the south and that there was an opportunity for this sudden drive on the capital by the Americans. Would the Germans have responded? Probably. But certainly we're also getting a sense at this stage that they were thinking, you
Much better to have the Allies further east than it is to have the Soviets further west. Yeah. So he was convinced, wasn't he, that he could have done it. And there was a bit of controversy subsequently. Simpson, I'm talking about here.
He was saying the opposition was very light, but that was refuted later, was it, by Bradley, who was saying that they didn't really have the wherewithal, the logistical backup, etc., to carry out this sort of lightning coup de main on Berlin. Yeah, it became a tit-for-tat between the two, but...
But Bradley's arguments were later refuted by Simpson. That's the important point here, that there was a disagreement between the two commanders. Bradley very much made the points that you've just made. Logistically, they didn't have enough backup to do it. They would have been out on a limb and they would have suffered these 100,000 casualties.
Simpson disagreed with all of this. And he wrote later, my army was in good shape. The supplies were in good shape. And we could have gone right on to Berlin and put up a darn good show. I had even railroads coming down into my area carrying supplies. And I had these 10 trucks
companies, hundreds of them. And remember, the important point here is the date. And I was really quite surprised when I saw the sequence of events unfolding, actually, Patrick, as I was researching Twilight of the Gods. Because just to reiterate, the Soviets don't launch their final offensive until the 16th. They're held up.
for quite a while on the Erde, getting through the German defences there. And it's not until the early 20s, 23rd, 24th, 25th, that they're really beginning to eat their way into the southern suburbs of Berlin, by which time, if we believe Simpson, he could have
got into Berlin himself. We'll never know, of course, because the decision was never taken. And Bradley always claimed, interesting enough, that Ike made the final decision. So he was trying to dodge responsibility himself. But it's clear that Ike was heavily influenced by Bradley. We would leave Berlin to the Russians, wrote Bradley, only in the remote event that they failed to move on Berlin would we go. And only if, in our judgment, German resistance would be light. Now, notice the use of the term resistance.
our judgment um in reality ike who was already thinking about the southern redoubt was heavily influenced by bradley who of course was on the ground all fascinating stuff full of what might have been well that was terrific very illuminating great to talk to you as always saul and everyone look out for the book not to for a while yet but it's going to be a cracker thanks patrick