Actor Robert Townsend Reflects on a Life in Hollywood
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From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Mina Kim. Coming up on Forum, you might know filmmaker, actor, and comedian Robert Townsend for his roles in The Meteor Man and the Emmy Award-winning series The Bear, or for writing and directing classics like Hollywood Shuffle and The Five Heartbeats.

Townsend has paved the way for generations of Black actors and filmmakers. And now in his one-man show, Living the Shuffle, he opens up about personal challenges, the role Shakespeare played in his life, and being mentored by Sidney Poitier. What has Robert Townsend's work meant to you? Tell us after this news.

Welcome to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Actor, director, and comedian Robert Townsend's one-man show, now at the Marsh Theatre in Berkeley, is called Living the Shuffle, a reference to the first film he ever directed and co-wrote and starred in called Hollywood Shuffle, which came out in 1987. A satirical comedy, it was inspired by the indignities of auditioning for the frustratingly narrow and stereotypical roles given to Black actors, and

Here's a clip. It's Hollywood's first black acting school. It teaches you everything. Classes are enrolling now. Learn to play TV pimps, movie muggers, street punks. Courses include Jive Talk 101, Shuffling 200, Epic Slaves 400, Dial 1, 800...

Robert Townsend would go on to create the roles in films he wanted, like black superhero Meteor Man and fictional R&B group The Five Heartbeats. Recently, he has a recurring role as Emmanuel, the father of Sidney, Iowa Debris' character on The Bear. Robert Townsend, welcome to Forum. Thank you so much for having me. We were both laughing so hard while that clip was playing.

And you doing that English accent and promoting a black acting school, it was inspired by a real life event, right? Yeah, there was. I talk about it in my show. There was this English director that was trying to tell me how to be black. And so I do a whole chunk on it in the show. But yeah, it's all based on real stuff, because as a young actor, I'm

you're putting your best foot forward and you want to do your best. But then sometimes I found myself being put in a box. And the show deals with what actors of color especially go through. And you co-wrote that film with Kenan Ivory Wayans. And you and Kenan would talk about having the very same experiences at these auditions, right? Just these really degrading experiences or people asking you to do things that...

Just, we're so undignified. Yeah, well, you know, back then, I mean, I hear it still goes on now, but back then, you know, you would audition for stuff and you'd have these directors that...

would push actors to the limit, you know, and stick your butt out. Can you make your nostrils bigger? And so it's like all this crazy stuff. And Kenan and I, you know, we're comedians. And so when we started thinking about

Like, I wasn't even thinking about being a filmmaker ever. It was just that out of the frustration, I've never been one to complain. So rather than complain, I was like, well, let's make a movie. And I had never made a movie before. And so Hollywood Shuffle, it was just based on our lives as actors. You know, Kenan had the same auditions I had. And then we would both laugh. We wouldn't really get because it would be just like, how dare they even say stuff like, you know, that. And so that's why...

it was all this real stuff that was going on. And now I've kind of broken it down in the one-man show. I just talk about all the different things, and they're all true. The funny thing is that you asked me before we got on the air about doing the show, and it's kind of like I'm living my life as a young artist on that stage and taking the audience through exactly how...

the filmmaker in me was born, you know, and it was because of those auditions. What has it been like to do that? You've talked about the show at the Marsh as the journey of your career. And so as you look at that journey, what is coming up for you? You know, there are nights that, uh,

You know, it's-- I'm just having fun and just being funny, funny, funny. And then there's nights that the emotion, you know, like the real emotion of what happened comes through, and I get caught in the emotion. You know, every show is different, you know?

you know, doing a one man show every night is different. Every, you know, some nights and it's the audience too. You know, sometimes there's an audience that's loving the jokes and it's funny, funny, funny. And then when it gets to the dramatic stuff, they get a little uncomfortable. And then there's certain nights when I get to the serious stuff, you know, audience members have said, you know, like, Oh my God, I cried because that was my story. And, and, you know, early on, um,

You know, Richard Pryor, who was one of my favorite comedians of all time, you know, he would say or somebody would say the most universal stuff is the most funny stuff. You know, the most universe, you know, the funniest stuff is the most universal stuff if you're saying your real truth. And so on stage, I'm saying a lot of my truth.

You funded Hollywood Shuffle with $60,000 in savings from small parts you had in Cooley High and A Soldier's Story and then had to use credit cards. Talk about just how hard it was.

To make that film logistically and then also to have to try and sell it, right? Well, you know, so let me say this. This is the first thing I've ever, I had ever directed. I had ever, Keenan and I wrote it together. So it was kind of my film school, right?

So I was learning on the job, but you don't know what you don't know. I had done extra work for like seven years. So I had been on sets and I had seen it, you know, from another side. But once I put on the cap of director, producer, you know, writer, star, you know, I...

I just took on the whole world and I just knew it was possible. But, you know, it's kind of like when we scouted locations, we couldn't afford permits. So if the police couldn't see us, it was a good location. You know, I was thinking of every trick in the book to to to the film was done in 12 days over two and a half years because I kept running out of money. And I just learned everything.

You know, you know, I'm from the west side of Chicago. So there is a part of my brain that is very crafty because you've got to survive in the hood. So I use all of that, those that skill set that I learned in the hood and applied it to filmmaking and where people were like, because it was 1984.

And the idea of somebody... Like, right now, it's old hat for somebody to say, "I'm gonna write and direct and produce a movie." Back then, it was like really going against a billion voices that said it couldn't be done because you got an inexperienced filmmaker. Well, a filmmaker has never made a movie. And a writer, we've never written anything, I've never directed. And then all of a sudden, we start to put it together and it comes together.

And this little film, you know, done for $100,000 eventually goes on to make, you know, close to $8 million. So I became a believer that anything and everything is possible. But we willed it and everything came together in the perfect, you know, perfect storm. How did you afford the film you needed?

Well, you had brought up A Soldier's Story. Norman Jewison directed A Soldier's Story. For those that don't know, it was like a film that was nominated for four Academy Awards, including Best Picture. And it was myself and it was Denzel and David Alan Greer and Howard Rollins and Adolf Caesar and...

the film changed my life because I was like, "This is what we're talking about." It was a quality film written-- As a matter of fact,

On March 12th, I'm hosting a screening of the film here. Robert Anderson is hosting a screening for his film organization. And so if you go to my Instagram, I'm going to post a picture. If you want to come, it's open to the public. But it's going to be March 12th and we're going to be showing Soldier Story. But anyway, I'm.

I called Norman Jewison, who directed the film, and I said, hey, I'm going to make my own movie, and I want the leftover film from A Soldier's Story. Can I have it? And he says, yes. He and the producer, Ron Swurry, they gave me the leftover film. So when you watch Hollywood Shuffle, some of that is a leftover film from A Soldier's Story. We're talking with Robert Townsend.

filmmaker, actor about the classic Hollywood shuffle. And you, our listeners, are invited to join the conversation to share what Robert Townsend's work has meant to you. The email address is forum at kqed.org. You can find us on our social channels at KQED Forum. And you can call us at 866-733-6786.

866-733-6786. Greg on Instagram writes, Robert Townsend has always been one of my influences in cinema. I love all of his work, but especially the films Hollywood Shuffle, which taught me to never portray negative stereotypes in roles. The Five Heartbeats, which is Oscar worthy with the great mixture between comedy, musical and drama. And The Meteor Man, which paved the way for black superhero movies. It was truly a blessing to check out his one man show. It made such an extraordinary impact.

on my acting craft. Wow, thanks, Greg. That need to pave the way yourself, to create the roles that you wanted to play is also behind the creation of Meteor Man, right? It was inspired by your nephew? Yes, yes. My nephew, Antoine, he...

It was Halloween, and he said, you know, I said, what are you going to be for Halloween? You know, Superman, Batman. And he says, no, I can't be those because they're white. And it really affected me because he was a little kid, but, you know, growing up in an inner city, all you see is people of color, and you go like, no, I could never do that. So then...

that's what motivated me to say, I'll create a superhero. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't like, I'll go to Marvel and get, I wasn't even thinking like that. I was just like, I'll create my own superhero and I'll give him his own superpowers. And I'll, and then the comedian in me, I always think of funny stuff. And so I go like,

all the superheroes you know fly really high and I say he'll be the first superhero that'll be afraid of heights and so when he's flying he flies four feet off the ground and you see him like they're looking in the sky to go no there he is you know and I'm at the at the fender of a car driving you know flying in the air so I would always think of funny stuff and so Meteor Man um

I put together an all-star cast. I had James Earl Jones in it and Robert Guillaume, Marla Gibbs, Naughty by Nature hip-hop groups, jazz legend Nancy Wilson. I had Luther Vandross in it. Don Cheadle made his first appearance in it. So for me, I always try to...

look at the canvas different and try to paint on canvases that other people haven't painted on and just challenge myself as an artist. And so with Meteor, man, I really challenged myself. I was working with ILM that's up here and I was editing, doing my mix at George Lucas's facility. So this is all like, it was like being in heaven, creating stuff like that. Even just thinking of Meteor. Yeah.

Like a radioactive superhero in a meteor? Yes. Yeah. And so I was just trying to figure out something. How could he get his superpowers? And...

Every now and then people will send me photos of meteors that have hit a house or something like that. But that was my thought. We're talking with Robert Townsend, who has paved the way for generations of black actors and filmmakers. And now his one-man stage show is called Living the Shuffle at the Marsh in Berkeley. More with him and with you listeners after the break. I'm Mina Kim. Shut up and do the watch. Use what you got. Show me you're on the watch. Don't say nothing unless I saw. And remember, I like it.

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You're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. We're talking with filmmaker, actor, comedian Robert Townsend, best known for Hollywood Shuffle, The Meteor Man, The Five Heartbeats, and now has a recurring role on the Emmy-winning show The Bear. Robert's one-man show, Living the Shuffle, is running at the Marsh Berkeley through March 9th. What has Robert Townsend's work meant to you? What do you want to ask Robert Townsend about his life, his filmmaking, about performing? Have you had a chance to see Robert's one-man show, Living the Shuffle, live on the show?

Tell us about it by emailing Forum at KQED, calling us at 866-733-6786, finding us on Blue Sky Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. We're at KQED Forum. And this fan on Instagram writes, Robert Townsend is a jewel and a blessing to the culture. He's talented, respected, and cares about people and representation. He deserves more credit and all the roses that we could give him. He's such a

positive man of dignity and a great example. God bless him. Oh my God. Thank you, Mama. You grew up on Chicago's West Side, as you said. Yes. So then, you know, what was it that made you decide you wanted to be a movie star or to be a performer, to really pursue that?

Well, there was a teacher in fifth grade. Teacher.

So let me let me talk about this in the show. But basically, I grew up on the west side of Chicago and it was a really rough neighborhood. And the neighborhood was filled with gangs. And I'm 10 years old. So my mother's like, when you get out of school, run straight in the house. I don't want you to get recruited by one of these gangs. And so when I got home, all I did was watch television and I watched so much TV. They nicknamed me TV Guide.

And so in the show, I go through. I was kind of like a human DVR. I could do characters, all the characters I saw on television. So if somebody missed something, they go like, so what happened? We missed the Hitchcock. What happened? They fouled the body in the alleyway. They discovered that, you know, I would just do all the voices. So if there was a voice or something, a character as a kid, I could do it. And so that's when it started. But

In fifth grade, there was a teacher, his name was James Reed, and he wanted kids to learn about Shakespeare. And so he gave us, you know, a few pages to read.

And it looked hard for me, and so I was always very creative and I could figure things out. So I went to the library and I stole all the Shakespeare records. And I listened to them at our stereo at home, and I got an A in class. But I fell in love with it. I was listening to the Royal Shakespeare Company doing King Lear, and so...

Mr. Reed after class, you know, once I was like, my Lord, I pray not the kingdom, you know, I would get into it. And the other class, the other kids in the class, like, Ooh, he crazy, you know, but I was like really into it. So Mr. Reed after class, he was like, you have a gift. You could be somebody. And he took me under his wing and, um,

He was the first one to tell me I could do something greater with my life, that teacher in fifth grade. And because of him, I won my first award in 1968. So the show is kind of a celebration, but he's a big part of my life. He was the first one to attend. If somebody says you could do something, I didn't understand what be somebody meant, but it was his words that kind of, you know,

you know, pushed me into a new direction and planted seeds. There was something you said in a PBS interview, and maybe this is in your show, but you said something along the lines of be careful who you share your dreams with. I don't talk about that in the show, but, you know, as a young actor...

Well, it's like not just as an actor, but just in life. I talk about this moment in my life where words are very powerful. And so if you say it's going to be a bad day or if you say you can't do it, it's kind of a mindset. And I learned early on that.

You've got to be careful who you share your dreams with because it's only the person closest to you that could kill your dream, kill your idea if you share. And I think a lot of times people go like, yeah, I'm going to do this. And the person goes, yeah, right. Or the person goes, you can't do that. So I'm a big believer in sharing.

who you surround yourself with, you know, and who you share your dreams with, because it could be your mother, your father, your boyfriend, your girlfriend, and you could have this wonderful idea. And so sometimes artists especially have to be protected, you know, if they have an idea that is magical or special, because not everybody will see it or they won't, you know, and you've got to, you know, I know I'm very sensitive to actors, writers, directors, and producers because

We are a different kind of breed. We kind of live in ideas and thoughts, and there are no bad ideas. It's like the idea just has to be developed further. Why did you not listen then? What made you decide, you know what, I'm going to pursue this anyway? Because I'm hard-headed. Nothing ever is going to stop me. I love what I do. And

In the show, I talk about this one teacher that shut me down. There was a teacher in college that crushed me and she crushed me really hard this one day and

I had a moment with myself like, you know, because adults can say things. And if an adult says it, I was in college. So if an adult says you can't do that and you'll never do that. And she said it with such authority that I was like, oh, man, she's right. And then.

I thought about it and I said, "She doesn't really know me. She doesn't know anything about me." And I shook it off. I think a lot of people in life don't know how to shake it off. They hear words and then those words get into their bloodstream and then they get stuck. And I've never been one to be stuck.

In The Bear, you play a loving and supportive father to Sydney, Iowa Debris' character. But your character is also worried about her choice, right? Yes. The kind of strain it puts on her and so on. And so I couldn't help but wonder, hearing those descriptions of you being discouraged, right? Yeah.

How or what you tapped into navigating your role as that supportive but worried dad in The Bear? Yeah.

Well, let me say this. I have four beautiful children and it's kind of like I play this part in real life. It's every day I'm worried about my kids because they're artists and they're making decisions and choices. And so I really identify with the character because a lot of the conversations that I have with her, I have with my children. And

It's all real. So, and let me say this about the bear. I love, I loved the show before I even became a part of it. Chris Storer, who is the showrunner, creator, producer,

is the nicest man. I call him, he hates when I say this, but I go, he's like a young Orson Welles. He dresses up, he wears a tie and a nice little suit sometimes to set and his little sweaters. And he has these magical eyes and he just sees this whole world. And when I first saw the show, I was just so blown away because one,

it took, it takes you inside a restaurant and this, this heated world and crazy, frantic, phonetic world and how it really is. And a lot of the technical advisors on the show run restaurants. And so all of that is real. And then he pulls back the letter, the layers, and he creates this, um,

emotional world of what everybody's going through. So I'm having the best time on the show. But for me, my character, you know, I identify with it because that's that's I'm living that right now in real time with my children. It comes through. Actually, let's hear a clip. This is from season two. This is you talking with Sydney about the soft opening of the restaurant and how how she's feeling. Get some coffee.

Stomach still? It's alright. I'll just grab something on the way. Thanks. Still coming tonight, right? Most definitely. Are you excited? Yeah. I don't believe you. I am. I am. It's just... I don't know. I am. It's gonna be really good. I have no idea how you do what you do, but I am excited.

Well, thanks, Dad. It means a lot. I know you can put a lot of pressure on yourself. Yeah, well, I live in a two-bedroom apartment with you, don't own a car, and for dinner the other night, I had a left twix, so I think pressure's our friend here. But that's okay is the point, because I love you very much, and I'm very proud of you. And if you need to live here forever, I want you to live here forever. I never want you to feel like you have to make everything the thing.

Why can't we put everything that we have into everything that we can? Baby, if that's true, then why put so much pressure on this one? Because I don't know if I could do another one. That's my guest, Robert Townsend, playing the role of Emmanuel, the father of Sidney Ayo, Debris' character. You've called Ayo a little baby genius, I think. Yeah, she's a force of nature. She's a little goat. She's a little goat. Because here's the thing...

She directed an episode last year, and she got nominated for a DGA award. She...

there are certain people that are built for this industry and she's built for this industry. She's very smart. She loves it. I'm watching her when we shoot. And sometimes she has like a seven, it's like six pages, almost seven pages of dialogue. And it's like, yes, chef, yes, chef, chop, chop, chop, chop. And she just nails it. And I watch it. I'm like, Oh God, you know, and it's this beautiful symphony and she knows how to play it so well, you know? And, uh,

I'm just, you know, I'm a proud papa. I'm a proud papa, you know. And it's so funny because online her real father responded. I go like, I'm the daddy, you the daddy. He reached out to me. I thought it was funny. It was so cute. Because he was like, that's my daughter. That's my daughter too. But no, I just think that certain people are built for the industry. And she is, she's a baby goat. She has a full future ahead of her. Have you given her advice on directing? No.

You know what? I think I went. I did give her advice when she before she was directing the episode. I, you know, like my kids, my kids in life, my other children, they go like, Dad, when you give notes, you really go in because I love it. And so we were supposed to just have lunch in a restaurant.

And, you know, my brain just gets right into, you know, like, OK, so how are you going to shoot the scene? All right. Now, it was just us in the restaurant. And so I said, OK, where's camera? And then we started and I started going through what's your movement pattern? And she was like, well, you know, and I saw her little brain come alive. But we did a whole kind of Townsend boot camp in a restaurant for like an hour and a half before she shot. Wow. Yeah.

One of your mentors was Sidney Poitier, right? Yes. How did that connection happen? After Hollywood Shuffle and becoming famous, you get to call other famous people, you know, because once you're famous and people go like, oh, that's Robert calling. And so I had my agent reach out to his agent and we met there.

at, uh, the polo lounge in Beverly Hills. And I talk about this in the show and it's just, I did not see many men of color that I looked up to when I was a kid, when I was back to being that TV guide guy. And so when I saw him on that screen, I was like, I want to know him. There's something about him. I want some of that. And, uh, we became, um,

became friends and There's a story that I tell in the show like when I was at my lowest He was one of the first people to show up, you know, and it's like you're The the man on the silver screen, you know, he was larger than life even in real life so so there's and I talked about it in the show, but it's like it's it's one thing to know somebody and you go, oh, he's really a great movie star and

But Mr. Poitier was a great man, and that's even more valuable. We're talking with Robert Townsend. You may have seen him recently on The Bear or opposite Billy Crystal on the Apple series before, or you know him for his films, Hollywood Shuffle, The Meteor Man.

The Five Heartbeats. Tony on Instagram writes, The Five Heartbeats is my all-time favorite movie. It depicts the journey of an artist so well. I remember I was in a hip-hop group and we named our album Lonely at the Top as a nod to the film. And

And Hollywood Shuffle was so ahead of its time. It was prophetic in terms of the typecasting and treatment of black actors trying to make it in Hollywood. Townsend showed us how to do it on our own. I always admired, respected, and loved how Townsend and Keenan always worked together and brought in their family and friends along. Townsend introduced the world to some legends, legends that are still here making movies.

The Five Heartbeats, there are so many comments about the Five Heartbeats, I have to say. I have seen people describe it as your most beloved work. Do you feel, is that how you feel about it as well? Well, you know, what's interesting is that because I have always painted on so many different canvases, so some people will say, like, uh,

Some people will say, ooh, Holiday Heart. I didn't know you directed that with Ving Rhames and Alfre Woodard, and Alfre got nominated for Golden Globe. Some people may say Carmen the Hip Hopera with Beyonce. It was Beyonce's first time, a hip hop opera. Some may say BAPS with Halle Berry because...

I created the first comedy duel with two black women. And I gave Hallie blonde hair and gold teeth, and I took a lot of heat for that. I was like, why are you going to give Hallie gold teeth and blonde hair? You sound like Eddie Murphy. Were you channeling Eddie Murphy?

Exactly. No, but the thing that I would say is that so all my films are like really different. Yeah. And so when people respond, like Jackie's Back is another one that people don't know that has a big following and they even have a celebration, Jackie Washington Day. So I've created a lot of stuff. But the five heartbeats, I think there is a love, love, love for the five heartbeats because the fans have reached out.

And, you know, over the years and go like, can you do another one? Can you do so? Can you do that? And the closest thing I did a documentary that's online now called Making the Five Heartbeats. And that's kind of the love letter to the fans. And so if people go, hey, I want some more. I take you through kind of a master class of how I made the film and everything that went right and everything that went wrong.

Well, this person writes on Instagram, BAPS for the visuals, the contrasting colors, the fashion, and the delightful composition of brown skin on screen gave me the permission to pick up a camera.

Jeremy on Instagram writes, The Five Heartbeats is one of the greatest films ever made. From the cinematography to the music, everything was timeless. Watching the documentary about how it was made gave me an even greater respect for the film. It's interesting you bring up BAPS because, you know, right now it's being talked about a lot because of Issa Rae's new film, One of Them Days. One of Them Days. Yeah, another buddy comment. And that your work has had so much influence and staying power. What's that like for you? I mean, did you know that it would be...

referenced, you know, now, right? Like when you were making it, that it would be something. Well, you know, the only thing that I would say is that anytime I write, direct, produce, or create anything, I try to design it in a way that you got to watch it more than once. You know, really great movies to me are great television shows. You know what's, you know, like the, you know, what's going to happen, but

It's such a delightful meal that you can watch it at any time. So if you're like I get I get emails all the time was like, you know, Robert Townsend. I was coming home from work and five heartbeats was on at two thirty and I stayed up to watch. You know, it's like I'm mad at you, but I enjoyed the film, you know, but I think really great movies like The Godfather is that for me. If The Godfather is on at any time of night or day and I see it, I'll stop.

And then I'll watch, you know, and there's only certain movies that have that kind of thing. Right.

And so for me, I feel honored that people, the work that I have created in my body of work, people still talk about, still reference. So it feels good. It feels good. Yeah. People don't have to try to get the extra film from a previous movie to be able to make their own movies these days. There's so much technology that's accessible to us to make things, to film things. Do you feel like our ability to gauge or maybe create quality has changed at all or has gotten harder?

Sorry, we're just coming up on a break, so we've got like 10 seconds. Oh, yes. You're absolutely right. And we out. Cut. We'll get into it after the break. Yes. I'm with Robert Townsend, and this is Forum. I mean it, kid. Thank you.

Welcome back to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. We're talking with Robert Townsend, who has paved the way for so many Black actors and filmmakers and inspired so many as we're hearing from our listeners. This listener writes, a fan on Instagram, The Five Heartbeats is my all-time favorite movie, and I don't care if it is, if I see the name Robert Townsend, I am watching it. Another person, Yvonne, writes, this man is an icon and a treasure in my family. I remember his comedy specials, stand-up shows, and of course, Hollywood Shuffle very vividly.

I remember looking forward to seeing the next installment of The Bold, The Black and The Beautiful. Man, those were the days. I was in junior high when Hollywood Shuffle came out and I loved every minute of it. The funniest lines were inside jokes for many years. Kind of like if you know, you know. I memorized that movie. I would play it and play it and repeat all the lines as a teen. It still remains my favorite movie of all time. I'm so thrilled that Robert Townsend is spending some time in the Bay to share his story.

Yes. And you telling stories, I was so enthralled by them that I totally lost time and threw you a very difficult question just before the break. But I am wondering, you know, what made you say yes, that you do feel like or at least what do you what do you think in terms of what it takes to make a quality movie? And if some of that is getting lost. Well, so let me say this.

The good news is that everyone has access to a camera. You can make a film with an iPhone. You can edit on your computer.

The bad news is that everyone has a iPhone and everyone has access to equipment. There is no quality control. So because there's no quality control, you have a lot of product to me that isn't quality. And I think...

What I say to young filmmakers all the time is that, you know, rewrite the script, rewrite it again, work on your, you know, movement, work on casting. Because sometimes people just try to make it too easy. And the studios, if it's really well done, there will be an audience for it. Like people send me stuff all the time on Instagram.

And I'll look at it. And if it's well done and somebody is really good, I'll reach out to him and say, hey, man, congratulations. You know, like that is a tie. Hey, so and so and so and so.

If it's not really good, I don't really respond because I see people, they don't take the time to go the extra mile. And for me as a filmmaker, any of the projects that I do, like when people say, when I see Robert's name on it, I do try to go always the extra mile. For The Five Heartbeats, I saw close to 10,000 actors to be in that film. I had open calls because I just wanted to find the best. So I think there is a time, you know...

Where you have too much clutter, but the quality stuff will always rise to the top. Listeners, if you want to ask Robert Townsend about filmmaking, performing, his life, or share what his work meant to you, you can tell us by emailing forum at kqed.org, posting on our social channels at KQED Forum, or calling us at 866-733-6786.

Sev writes, Hollywood Shuffle remains one of the greatest comedies of the 1980s. There are moments in that film that feel perfect. So many different styles, inspirations, and influences are present, not to mention the themes and personalities that are lampooned. It's brilliant. That movie burned its way into my psyche as a child and remains alive and alive.

Well, the industry has changed so much in part because of Hollywood Shuffle. There's a lot that's better for black filmmakers and actors and filmmakers and actors of color, of course. But what do you feel like has stayed frustratingly the same? It's not the same. So I wouldn't say that things are the same. It's just that...

A lot of the work is on the same frequency. So there's a certain kind of layer of, you know, like I vote for the Academy every year. So this year, you know, I watched all the movies and I go, ooh, that, that. And there are certain movies that break through the noise.

And they try different things. And I think sometimes when I see a lot of the work now for people of color, it's kind of similar. So there's a lot of similar stuff as opposed to, oh, my God, I've never seen anything like that. Oh, my God, the character spoke out and said, oh, you know. And so that to me...

Like this year, I saw Conclave. I thought it was really well done. I had never seen a world like that, so I said, "Oh, I like the world." Uh, Onora. I thought Onora was really well done, you know? And Sean Baker, the director, he will try things and he will take a chance. Uh, Amelia Perez.

Some people didn't like the musical aspects, but I kind of like seeing a world and seeing a story that I haven't seen before and somebody taking a chance. And so I because I didn't know where it was going and I was like, oh, this is interesting. So I think for me, yeah.

It's the artists that are willing to take a chance and try something. And at the end of the day, as long as you're having fun and you're doing what you believe in, that's the thing that I say to a lot of artists now, be true to you. Because sometimes people go like, what does Hollywood want? Hollywood wants you to be your authentic self. Can you create something that is really who you are or what you really believe in? How much did being TV guide as a kid, right, really...

Broaden your world, like really open up your world. Oh, it was everything because back then there were four channels. You had ABC, NBC, CBS, and PBS. And...

I was watching the foreign French films with subtitles. So I'd be, you know, in the house, "Je te lève et je te laisse, tu sais que je t'aime. "Tu me le fais quoi, toi-là? "Qu'est-ce que tu fais ici?" And I would do the voices and... But I would watch everything. So some kids only watched the regular shows. Yeah, I watched The Flintstones and I watched...

you know, the Sons of Will got signed, Andy Griffith show, Carol Burnett. But then I also watched the operas on PBS. So I was, so I took in everything. Yeah. I'm just thinking about something that you said earlier and connecting it to also what you were saying about a lot of the same stuff is just being able, like you, you have been talked about, um,

in terms of your imagination and your creativity and just how, you know, bottomless it feels sometimes. And just thinking about all the different influences that must have shown you there are so many places to look. Well, you know, here's the thing. When you are growing up in the hood and all you see is the ghetto outside and you see gangs and drugs and violence and what have you, and then when you watch television and then all of a sudden it is...

a comedy. It's the Pink Panther. It is, uh, on the waterfront, it is Othello. So there's all this stuff and I would, you know, devour it all. I took it all in. I just think that a lot of people would flick the channel. And for me, I was like, there's something, there were life lessons that I learned in all of that stuff. So for me, it, it really, it really shaped me. Like, uh, Malcolm Gladwell talks about 10,000 hours in that book, uh,

And my 10,000 hours started when I was a little TV guy. So when people say, hey, I love your movies, I love da-da-da-da, all of that is coming from watching Humphrey Bogart and Casablanca and watching all these great movies and watching them again and again and then figuring out, oh, the music should come in here. Oh, that's what's making me cry. And I was a little mad scientist as a little kid. I was studying it all.

And it sounds like just being really open to it, open to seeing what was in it. When I listen to you do voices to, I think there has to be a certain attunement to be able to do voices so well and so immediately the way that you probably did them as a kid. Well, you know, in the show, uh,

I've always been able like when I tell stories I will transform so if I go Yeah, the guy who was Duke Ellington's friend his name was Pop Johnson and then I say I'm Pop Johnson and so I'd say I'm so happy to be on your show because I Knew Duke Ellington and he was he was a wonderful man. I

I could just do it, you know, it's just, it's, you know, like Walter Britton. Well, damn it, no brain is fixed. I could do voices. I'd have never gotten my brains if it wasn't for you. What's in that bag for Dorothy?

You know, so what I mean, when I was a kid, man, I could do like 60, 60. I could do a lot of voices because I just watch a show. And if it was Jimmy Stewart, you know, it's a wonderful life. Well, while you see Mary, I love you. But I feel, you know, I would just go. So when I'm doing my one man show, I've been having the best time at the Mars Theater because when you're directing and writing and producing, you're

I don't get to play all these voices and characters. And so every night it's like, I got the best compliment. This young lady after the show, I'm signing autographs and taking pictures and she goes, I know it was just you on stage, but it was like a hundred people up there with you. Yeah.

And I was like, oh, thank you. It's like 100 people up there. And because I'm in and out. You know, the thing for me is that my heroes of one doing one person shows are

Richard Pryor, his first live on concert. I watched that religiously because that man committed. Then Elaine Stritch. She was live at the Liberty. And wonderful, brilliant. And so every night I get to play. And this is just pure Robert on stage. Pure, pure, pure. And it's an intimate setting because I'm right there. I'm basically on the audience's lap. Sure.

He spit on me tonight. Your daughter, Skye, shared a story about when you would drive her to school, you'd play radio where you played a radio talk show host. Yeah, we would. Well, what it was was that I would switch the radio station and whatever music came on, we would have to do a voice to it. So if it was like...

Country, Western. All right, darling. Welcome here. We're so glad to be here. If it was, you know, whatever radio station, this is the BBC, you know, we would do and she would do voices with me. And she was on the Black Lady Sketch Show. And I'm proud of all my children. But Sky also now is on The Neighborhood with Cedric the Entertainer. So she's a regular on there. But when she was a little girl, we would play, you know, radio and I would switch the station and whatever music came on, we would do voices to it.

Well, let me remind listeners you're listening to the radio. This is Forum. I'm talking with Robert Townsend. I'm Mina Kim.

And this listener, Ada, writes, as a Gen X white kid growing up in the suburbs of Long Island, I must have watched Hollywood Shuffle over a thousand, over a hundred times on VHS. There was nothing like it at the time. I just want to thank Robert Townsend for the film and let him know it opened my eyes a bit wider to experiences that weren't my own, using satire and hilarious humor.

After watching it, I couldn't help but see the stereotypical tropes found in Hollywood films for what they are. I'm sure that I'm not the only white kid who received a tiny bit of a different perspective and maybe even understanding thanks to his films. Winky dinky dog forever.

Thank you. Thank you. So who are the young black filmmakers that you feel like are really doing quality work, that are making you say, whoa, like they're really pushing us forward? Um...

The new, let me see, the latest. Well, Donald Glover is at the top of my list. I just love him. I love his vision. He does, you know, movies and television, but I love the show Atlanta that he did. Jordan Peele, Get Out is still one of my favorite, you know, movies of the new generation. The filmmakers that did Sing Sing.

Well done. Well done. I don't know who those filmmakers are, but a wonder-- If you get to see the film Sing Sing, it's a wonderful film. Really well directed, really well written, and, uh... And I'm trying to think of who... Uh... Not a new filmmaker, but Sean Baker, he has always pushed the envelope. Like when he did the film Tangerine, all on iPhones.

He constantly pushes the envelope and he's the source of it. And Anora is a wonderful film and wonderful performances. So, um, yeah, those who are, that's what I would say so far. So Eddie Murphy saw something in you when he asked you to direct raw. Yeah. You know, uh, um, Eddie is a wonderful, brilliant comedian and a wonderful man. And so there is a scene in Hollywood shuffle where, uh,

And I talk about it in the show where we do this thing about the casting directors. What we're looking for is an Eddie Murphy type and there's 20 guys in blackface and leather jackets laughing like Eddie. And so...

And Eddie, after we finished the film, the film became a huge hit. And then Eddie calls and says, I'd like to see the movie. And I was like, huh? And I talk about it in the show. It was at that meeting that we talked about working together. So it's a beautiful, I love the story because it's a true story. But I have so much respect, you know, to this day for Mr. Murphy because he's,

Hollywood Shuffle was my first film. My second film directing was Raw, and it became the highest grossing concert film ever. Do you talk about auditioning for SNL at the same time as Eddie Murphy in your show? No, you know, I don't because I auditioned for Saturday Night Live, and I...

you know, back then it's the, it's the eighties, seventies, eighties, seventies. And, uh, I'm just giving it my all and I'm doing all my characters and you just leave the room and then you go like, I think I did good. And then I didn't hear anything. And then they said, Oh, they're going with this guy out of, uh, Roosevelt Island, Long Island, uh, Eddie Murphy. And I was like, Oh, okay. All right. And then I see Eddie and I'm like, this dude is a brilliant, he's a genius. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. And then later on,

And there's a book that came out by the producer, one of the producers of Saturday Night Live, and said there was a big fight in the room over Robert Townsend because we really wanted Robert Townsend. And then Eddie shows up and I was like, but I was like, it made sense. But the fact that there was a fight because it was just another audition and you just go next. OK, I gave it my all. I guess I'm not right for them. And you just move on. But it was a it was it was a very interesting.

It was a high compliment that I was really considered for the show. Yeah. The show at the Marsh, you describe it as the most personal thing you've ever done. And I know early on in the show, I was asking you about sort of what it has meant to kind of look back and do those kinds of things. Is there, I mean, how is it? Are you turning into Oprah on me? I'm going to cry. Why, why?

Why is this the most personal? By personal, do you mean it's one of the hardest? Well, personal because I'm a very private person, so I don't really talk about my private life. Really? There are certain people that I have maybe seven posts on social media. I don't really do like, and I'm going to have breakfast now, and this is the toilet paper I use. I don't really do any of that. And so in the show, I kind of give you a glimpse into...

Robert the man, you know, you get the artist, but then you kind of go like, oh, that's, oh, that's, you know, oh, that's how he did that. Oh, that's why he does that. Oh, he, oh, he, he made a mistake there. And I think what I learned from Richard Pryor was the same thing. It's like, if you're really going to be an artist, you, and it's, and share a story, share some truth, like real truth. And so with the show, I'm sharing a lot of, you know, real truths.

Robert Townsend, thank you so much. Our time is up. Our time. You are the best. It went so fast. Look at you. You all came so prepared. Thank you so much. Thank you. I really enjoyed this and needed this today. I enjoyed it as well. Thank you so much. And I'm so prepared because I have an incredible team.

Forum is produced by Mark Nieto, Caroline Smith, Dan's All Help this week, Francesca Fenzi, Jennifer Eng is our engagement producer, Susie Britton, our lead producer, our engineer is Danny Bringer, Brendan Willard and Christopher Beal. This week, our interns are Brian Vo and Jesse Fisher. Katie Springer is our operations manager. Our vice president of news is Ethan Tovan-Lindsay. This is Forum. I'm Mina Kim.

Funds for the production of Forum are provided by the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, the Generosity Foundation, and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.