As Iran and Israel War Continues, What Does It Mean for the Bay Area Iranian Diaspora?
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From KQED. From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Alexis Madrigal. War is expanding in the Middle East and the United States is now directly involved. The American military launched a series of strikes against Iranian nuclear facilities, entering a war that Israel began less than two weeks ago. Today we talk with members of the Iranian diaspora, the people in our community who are closest to the conflict. How do they understand what's going on? What are their fears? What are their hopes?

We'll talk to them about how they see this war, what they're hearing from family back home, and more. It's all coming up next, right after this news. Welcome to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal. While many Americans were shocked in trying to process a war that's unfolding in the Middle East again, the Iranian diaspora here in the Bay Area and across the country are in an especially difficult situation.

Many of them have family at home in Iran, family that's subject to another travel ban, not unlike the quote-unquote Muslim travel ban of the first Trump administration. Communication with friends and loved ones inside Iran can be spotty, and the uncertainty of what's going to happen in the coming months and years is unbearable.

And at the same time, as with the woman life freedom protests of a few years ago, there's always the hope for many Iranians in the United States that the regime will transform or fall, allowing them to reconnect with the country of their ancestors.

Joining us this morning, we have four people from the Ronin Diaspora. Really thank you to all of you for being able to join us this morning. I know it's just a really difficult time. We have Nahid Siamdoust, who is a journalist and professor in the Middle Eastern Department, Middle Eastern Studies Department at the University of Texas at Austin. Welcome, Nahid. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, thanks for joining us.

We have Persis Karim, who is a writer, poet, and professor at San Francisco State, head of the Iranian Diaspora Studies at SF State. Thanks for joining us, Persis. Thank you so much. We have Hasti Jafari, who is a playwright, cartoonist, and an educator. Thank you so much for joining us, Hasti. Thanks for having me. And we have Arman Mahmoudi, who's a community organizer with Bay Area for Iran. Thanks for joining us, Arman. Thanks for having me.

Nahid, let's start with you. I mean, how are you making sense of what happened? Like, what do you think the context is that Americans might be missing about the Trump administration, the regime in Iran or anything else?

Most Americans watching mainstream news, what they're seeing is yet again another huge machinery at manufacturing consent for this war. All the frameworks are somehow forgotten or not even discussed. The fact that this is an illegal war of aggression by Israel, by a country that has been carrying out a war of annihilation and starvation against its own, the people it occupies, the Palestinians in Gaza and also the West Bank.

And, you know, that the U.S. joining this war is completely, you know, contravenes any kind of legal international Geneva conventions and other conventions. And so right away, they're plunged into this notion that Iran is the threat when Israel and the U.S. are the ones who have nuclear bombs and Iran does not. And in fact, you know, it's a breakout time to actually making a bomb was at least six months, if not 12 months by the U.S.'s own government.

you know, intelligence estimates. So right away, we are plunged into this narrative again of needing to, you know, win against this evil empire. And of course, this discourse and narrative is driven to a great extent by the Israeli government, by the prime minister Netanyahu, who has for many, many years, more than 20 years, really,

been rallying for war against Iran. And what we're seeing from Iran is the people who, you know, for decades have been working very hard from within to bring about changes and reforms of their own government and have to, you know, on a daily basis been pushing against it and succeeded to a great extent on many fronts.

But yet, you know, squeezed between this sort of authoritarian government that has denied them their own rights and this criminal war machine led by the U.S. and Israeli governments to really annihilate their civilian infrastructures. This is not just a war against military and nuclear sites. We've seen this over the past week. We hear from family. Many civilian targets have been bombed, hospitals, media, communication, infrastructures, and

And really, the way it looks for a lot of Iranians from within Iran and outside is the Israeli government trying to really decimate the state infrastructures of Iran like it has elsewhere, like in Syria and Lebanon, really trying to undo the state in those places and render them incapable of functioning so that a sort of Israeli supremacy really can reign in the region.

Hasti, you grew up under the regime, came to the U.S. as an adult, young adult, right? Yes. Do you think people of your generation and immigration experience feel differently about what's happening than some others in the diaspora? I mean, people have so many different kinds of feelings. I think some people are hoping that this will bring some sort of

that there would be something positive coming out of this as in like regime change. Some people have mixed feelings of like, yeah, I don't want my country to be bombed, but also I want the regime to be bombed. Like when there's high commanders who have like violated human rights in so many ways get killed offensively.

Of course, people are going to get happy because those are people who were actively murdering civilians. And even, I think, even after 10 years, sorry, 10 days now, the number of civilian deaths or the number of people who have been killed during active bombing is still not as high as when the regime was killing its own people during, like when there were internet shutdowns in past decades.

So it's a very complicated situation for a lot of Iranians. Persis, are you feeling these conflicting feelings? Where are you at as someone who grew up here but obviously has very deep roots in Iran? Yeah, I think I both appreciate and understand the perspective of people who wish to see Iran

real change inside Iran. But speaking as somebody who is deeply embedded in the American context, what I feel is a great sense of foreboding and fear about the country that I live in, the United States, exercising its military might and doing irreparable damage to the people of Iran. And as Nahid said,

to the possibility of any real change long term that could take place once this conflict is over. And I think one of the things that's really apparent to me as an American who has, you know, feelings about the Middle East and has followed the Middle East for more than 25 years is that

The United States doesn't care about the welfare of the Iranian people. It doesn't care about the stability of the region beyond its own interests. And we have to realize that for the last hundred years, not just most recently, Iran has had trouble exercising its sovereignty. And that has happened multiple times where there's been foreign interventions during the constitutional revolution.

of 1906. And in 1953, the U.S. exercised its military might in a military coup. And so the pattern of intervention that has thwarted Iran's possibility of long-term change is a repeating pattern of the U.S. And I think the other thing is, is

The possibility for hardening the regime is really a great possibility. And it happened during the Iran-Iraq war, that it used a military conflict to cement its power and repress its own people. Yeah.

Arman, I know we're going to try and talk to your fiancé in Iran a little bit later. Obviously, it doesn't get much tighter ties than that. You're also organizing here in the Bay Area. Where are you in this sort of spread of views in diaspora? Well, I kind of want to speak to what Hasti touched on about the oppression of the government itself against the people. Because a group like Bay Area for Iran

Honestly, just like diaspora and things we're hearing from inside Iran is there's like a lot of different reactions to this war, especially in the first 48 hours when you saw over 16 high profile generals who have played an active role in the murder of Iranians, such as the Ukrainian flight downing of PS 752 or throughout the suppression of dissidents throughout women life freedom where we saw torture, rape and torture.

executions, Iran's leading, and by Iran I mean the Islamic Republic of Iran, and I say republic in quotations, it's not much of a republic, has executed more people per capita than any state in the past 20 years. Right before this conflict broke out, they were executing one person every six hours. And

statewide war on its own people. It is the belief, it's a common belief in Iran that the Iranian people have been at war with their own government for 46 years. So now you add that the government is at war with another totalitarian power or, you know, a power in the region that many consider everything that Nahid said, I don't object. I mean, what Israel has done in other conflicts is, it can't be defended. But I think

Now, as the conflict extends, the sense of what Persis touched on and the worry, it just becomes much more of the majority opinion. And people are looking to an end in this conflict as soon as possible. Now, the optimist side of this is hopefully this can somehow open the doors to regime change. But it is a common thought in the Iranian people, what Persis said, that change is not going to come with

The help from the involvement of outside. This has to come within and by the Iranian people. Now, is maybe the weakening of some government institutions or leaders being, you know, they're scrambling to figure out what they're trying to do to keep their power going to open a slight window for people? Some might believe yes. Some believe it might actually make things worse because history shows whenever this government is attacked or in a war,

they can't really they don't have the military might to respond the way that they want to israel but they definitely have the ability to kill our own dissidents and as we've already seen it yesterday um mohammed matthew mohammed amin math devish a disabled 27 year old political prisoner was executed in iran and this is the fourth high profile

execution. We just had Mojahed Kulkur, Hamid Hossein Nejad, and Mohsen Langar Nesheen. And two of these four were actually accused of being Israeli spies. We're talking with members of the Iranian diaspora about the war in Iran, which the U.S. obviously joined this weekend, at least in some way. We're joined by Arman Mahmoudi, who's a community organizer with Bay Area for Iran, Hasti Jafari, a

playwright, a cartoonist, and educator, Nahid Siamdoust, who is a journalist and professor at the Middle Eastern Studies Department at UT Austin, and Persis Karim, a writer, a poet, and professor at SF State. And of course, we want to hear from you. You can give us a call. The number is 866-733-6786. Maybe you're part of the Iranian community here in the Bay Area. You can email us, forum at kqed.org, or find us on social media. I'm Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more right after the break.

Support for Forum comes from the University of San Francisco School of Management. Celebrating 100 years of partnership with the Bay Area business community, the USF School of Management connects students to the city's vibrant culture, hands-on internships, and a wealth of career opportunities. Where AI and sustainability are integrated into every facet of business education.

and where students bring innovation, ethics, and entrepreneurial leadership to a planet in need. The University of San Francisco School of Management. Change the world from here. Support for KQED Podcasts comes from Earthjustice. As a national legal nonprofit, Earthjustice has more than 200 full-time lawyers who fight for a healthy environment.

They wield the power of the law to protect people's health, preserve magnificent places and wildlife, and advance clean energy to combat climate change. Earthjustice fights in court because the Earth needs a good lawyer. Learn more about how you can get involved and become a supporter at earthjustice.org.

Welcome back to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal. We're talking with four members of the Iranian diaspora here in the U.S. about the U.S. entering the war between Iran and Israel. We've got Persis Karim, a writer, poet, and professor at SF State. We have Nahid Siamdoust, who's a journalist and professor in the Middle Eastern Studies Department at UT Austin. And we've got Hasti Jafari, a playwright, cartoonist, and educator. Of course, we're inviting you into the conversation as well. Maybe you're a part of the Iranian community. What do you want people to know about what's going on in Iran?

in Iran. Give us a call 866-733-6786 forum at kqed.org Find us on social media of course or you can join our Discord community.

We're joined by Arman Mahmoudi here, who's a community organizer with Bay Area for Iran, and his fiancee is in Iran. She's a political dissident. I think that's okay to say. Former political dissident. Former political dissident. Former political dissident. Prisoner. Former political prisoner. Current dissident. Current dissident. Yeah.

She joins us on the line on FaceTime. She's going to talk and Hasti is going to translate for us if we can hear. So we're going to try this here. Just go with us, everyone. So why don't we just say what's the situation there for her? Hasti. Yes. She says how is the situation in Iran right now? For example, what is the people's feeling about the events, especially the past 24 hours?

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People's reactions to the places that are being bombed is really clear that they're glad they are aware that they're like paying a price and there's like real consequences that they're like

coming across, but they know that if the regime stays, there's going to be even more prices that they will have to pay. There's going to be even more lives lost. What does life feel like? Does it feel like a state of war? Does it feel like a normal life? How is life now? Is it like normal life or is it a war situation?

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Okay, break. Yeah, break. So in larger cities where there's more attacks like Tehran, Mashhad, Tabriz,

People are scared because they can hear the bombs and everything, but they know that they can rely on each other. They know they can, they're like sharing resources. They're having each other at their places. So you can see like them showing up for their community. Yeah.

Last question and then we'll let her go. What do you want people to know about the conflict?

I want all the people to know how a regime can reach this point where they can be a part of another country's military attack just so that the government can change and not be the same. They know how much it costs them. We want all the people to know this.

Thank you so much. She says she wants the people of the world to know how a regime can...

do something with their own people that makes them want another country to come and eliminate that regime because they know that no matter what this other country is doing to their people, it's still much, much smaller than what the regime has done to the people. So they're not...

even though war is devastating and they fully realize that, they're much more afraid of their own regime than they are of a foreign country. Nahim, I just want to give you a chance to think alongside Armand's fiance there. I can imagine that people inside the country, and like we were just hearing earlier,

more concerned about their own government than about the strikes? Like, how do you think about that? I really appreciate the perspective we just got from Armand's fiancee. And I'm sorry if I'm forgetting her name. Um,

But you know, that is one perspective. Sorry, you didn't get it. I see. Okay, there you go. But you know, there are many, many, and that's one perspective among many coming from Iran, and all of us have family there. We're also monitoring social media. As a matter of fact, when Iran's Nobel Prize winner, Nagis Mohammadi, along with Jafar Panahi and a few other, you know, famous sort of civil rights activists issued a statement that

saying Iran should back off from its nuclear program so that the war can stop. Their call was also an end to the war. They got really lambasted from all across Iranian society, many different layers saying, how dare you in this moment say,

the Islamic Republic for something and not even mention the Israeli aggression. And so, you know, yes, the Iranian population at large, they have been fighting a valiant effort for decades to get rid of the Islamic Republic. They've been working hard at it. But that does not mean that they're welcoming the bombs and hoping to be, you know, aided by a criminal government, the Israeli government, who's trying to basically

deflect attention from its war crimes in Gaza and the starvation of an entire pub. They've seen what they've done in another place. They've seen what they've done in Lebanon. They've seen what they've done in Syria.

I mean, as much as there's been regime change in Syria, the Israeli government is still bombing Syria and basically trying to completely dismantle any governmental infrastructure. So they know the goal is devastation. The goal is not, you know, those who've been paying close attention, they can see, yes, in the short run, there are many political activists like the woman we just heard from Iran. There are many who would...

everybody you know the majority not everybody the majority of iranians let's say something between 60 70 80 percent of iranians want the islamic republic gone but i think it's a real misreading of the situation to say that they are welcoming to be attacked by the israeli government because they've seen this show before they've seen the regime change horror show before they know what it brings to the populations and they also understand that these governments are not

ones that have wanted the benefit of Iranian societies in the past, right? The U.S. has already carried out a regime change, as Persis mentioned, in 1953 in Iran. And to imagine that these are powers that are going to bring improvement to Iranian lives or that want, you know, have the Iranian people's interest at heart is a miscalculation. And I think a majority of Iranians, as is reflected in social media, can see that. Let's bring in caller Mozgan in Los Gatos. Welcome.

Hi. Good morning. I'm an Iranian-American. I grew up in Iran under the brutal regime. And I just want to say I applaud President Trump and Prime Minister Netanyahu leadership.

in targeting the nuclear capabilities of Iran regime. This regime is a threat to the world, not just Iranian people. And we are safer as a result of that. And I hope this paves the way for Iranian people to finally achieve their liberation. And I just want to make a distinction that Iran regime is different from the people of Iran. This is Khamenei's war. He asked for it. And for four decades,

Iranians have been suffering under this regime, and they reject Khamenei's warmongering. And he does not speak for Iran. He speaks for a regime that is so desperate to survive. And I just want to add that the people of Iran stand with the people of Israel against their share enemy, which is the Islamic Republic. And we want regime change in Iran. And I hope America and the Western countries

democracy, stand with the people of Iran, support them in their fight for liberation. Thank you so much. Mosgan, thanks for your perspective there. Persis, I think you want to... Yeah, I just want to reflect back that

the caller's desire to distinguish the Iranian government from the Iranian people. I think many of us share that feeling. However, I don't think the United States government sees any distinction. And I will reflect also that here in the United States, we get caught up in that same narrative about Iran and the regime

And one of my great fears is that the caller isn't looking at the fact that we're not living in a democratic society right here in the United States at this moment. Congress should be the only one authorized to call for any kind of military action in the case of like Iran. So one of the things that's being sacrificed at this moment

is in fact our democratic process in the United States. And I think one of the things that we see both in Netanyahu and in Trump is a desire to exercise military might for the benefit of themselves. And we're looking at a criminal regime in Israel. Netanyahu is...

Trying to deflect his attention away from Gaza to another so-called enemy. And Trump has fallen in the polls and he's trying to create a distraction from what's happening right here at home. Let's bring in caller Shaharza in Santa Rosa. Welcome.

Hi, thank you very much. What I wanted to add to the conversation are two things. One is that I hope that the media, including KQED and NPR, continue to objectively report on the human casualties in Iran. Not a rough number, just the way they are accounted in Israel. Innocent lives are lost in Israel and also in Iran. From the beginning, Israel...

also targeted residential areas. So the lies that they say about that they're only targeting the military and nuclear side is untrue. Second of all, I want to add, I want to ask the people of Israel also to rise up against their corrupt and murderous government.

just the way the Iranians have been fighting their corrupt and murderous government. These need to be solved at both ends. To portray the Israeli government as peaceful and democratic cannot be far from the truth.

Even when we are suffering, we have to remain realistic and see the facts. And for Iranians who are completely fed up and they think that this bombing is going to remove this government and bring something better to them, please think about what has happened in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Lebanon, and in

Many think what's happening right now in Palestine, which one of those intervention attacks from the U.S. has solved the problems in those countries and brought in a better country, better government in those countries.

I know it's hard to keep track of all these things, but it's very, very important that we do. I really hope for peace. I believe in peace. I have to. Thank you. That's a good note to end on. Thank you. Appreciate that. You know, Arman, obviously this is

so many crosswinds here. One of the things I was hoping you could talk about is the strikes inside Iran, right? I mean, here in the U.S., we've mostly heard about, right, the attacks on the nuclear facilities. But of course, there are attacks going on all across Iran right now, and you're hearing that from inside the country. One thing I want to just a quick comment on what...

I believe Sharzad. Yeah. I think the distinction is the reason it's not a justification. What the Israeli side has done is they've went after not only military nuclear, all that infrastructure, but actual specific people from that, like in charge and nuclear scientists and stuff. And they're not catching them at work. And other people live there. So, I mean, the, the,

This is like logistically, let's say I was a non-player on this issue, had no bias. How can you kill someone at their house with a rocket or whatever you use without, you know what I mean? There's going to be civilian casualties on both sides. We saw a hospital get hit in Israel just two days ago, and there's been apartment buildings blown to shreds in Iran. But one thing I wanted to talk about is

What was going on in Iran before this conflict came?

We're in the middle of the possibly in the past 50 years, the first revolutionary movement started by women and embraced by the greater portion of society. You got for the first time in Iranian society, activists from every sector of activism, labor, environmental, political, LGBTQ, religious minorities, all rising to the same cause of getting rid of this regime. And

I just want to know that, I just want to hope that public opinion and the world's attention doesn't veer away from Iran after this conflict ends. Because we're going to be from an infrastructure, economic, and everything else level,

pretty much left in shambles whether the regime is there or not. It's going to be a long road to rebuilding this country and doesn't matter who's involved or isn't involved. Obviously, we're advocating for a democratic, secular society. And this is a society that's capable of very great things. In the past year,

You saw the Nobel or the past three years. We saw the Nobel peace prize, the top prize at can and the Havel, uh, artists for change award all go to Iranians. And just for some context here in radio, um, too much Salae, who I wore his shirt, uh, the rally yesterday was voted as the most influential music figure all because of his music being, he's pretty much for hip hop community, the Tupac of Iran. And he was, uh,

He was voted by Spin Magazine as the most influential music figure. Taylor Swift was third on that list, just for some context. So, I mean, this society is capable of a lot. They're just trying to free themselves and live a normal life like Hasty touched on. Yeah, Hasty, you've heard these callers. You've heard people coming from the diaspora. We heard Armand's fiancée. Thank you for translating there. I mean, what are you thinking? What thoughts do you want to add here?

I think one thought that came to mind was that I think Iranian people, from what I have gotten, what I understand, blame Khamenei and the corrupt regime of the Islamic Republic as much as they blame Israel and the United States for the war that is happening. So I think the way a lot of us see it is that you need to...

basically oppose the two routes that are involved in this conflict in order to get to peace.

So I think you need to both recognize that the Islamic Republic is not the representative regime of Iranians. It is basically a terrorist organization that's killing its people and killing the people of other countries and making proxy wars in the region. And that Israel is...

invading us, invading Iran and United States is bombing Iran illegally. Like it's all of it. It's not just one. And I think that needs to all be recognized in order to get to peace. Yeah.

We're talking with members of the Iranian diaspora about the U.S. entering the war between Iran and Israel. We're joined by Hasti Jafari, who's a playwright, a cartoonist, educator. We have Nahid Siamdoust, who is a journalist and professor at UT Austin. We've got Perseus Karim, a professor at SF State. We have a

Arman Mahmoudi, who's a community organizer with Bay Area for Iran. Earlier, we spoke with Arman's fiancee, a dissident in Iran. We want to hear from you. You can give us a call, 866-733-6786. If you can't get through there, try the email, forum at kqed.org. I'm Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more right after the break.

Support for Forum comes from the University of San Francisco School of Management. Celebrating 100 years of partnership with the Bay Area business community, the USF School of Management connects students to the city's vibrant culture, hands-on internships, and a wealth of career opportunities.

where AI and sustainability are integrated into every facet of business education, and where students bring innovation, ethics, and entrepreneurial leadership to a planet in need.

The University of San Francisco School of Management. Change the world from here. Support for KQED podcasts comes from Earthjustice. As a national legal nonprofit, Earthjustice has more than 200 full-time lawyers who fight for a healthy environment. They wield the power of the law to protect people's health, preserve magnificent places and wildlife, and advance clean energy to combat climate change. Earthjustice fights in court because the Earth needs a good lawyer.

Learn more about how you can get involved and become a supporter at earthjustice.org.

Welcome back to Forum. Alexis Madrigal here. We're talking with members of the Iranian diaspora about the U.S. entering the war between Iran and Israel this weekend. We're joined by Hasti Jafari, playwright, cartoonist, and educator. Arman Mahmoudi, a community organizer with Bay Area for Iran. Persis Karim, who is a writer, poet, and professor at SF State. And Nahid Siamdoust, who's a journalist and professor at UT Austin.

So versus one of the things that at least maybe it's just people of my age, but I'm just getting almost flashbacks to the early 2000s and the time after 9-11 and then both the invasions of Afghanistan and then Iraq.

You know, war in the Middle East seems like a lot of people in American government don't actually know a lot about things going on in the Middle East. Talk to me about sort of how you are seeing the U.S. involvement in the context of those post-911 wars. Yeah. Well, I have great fear about us reliving not only the climate of the post-911 period,

in this country, but it being far worse given the nature of Trump's authoritarianism just in the last four months that he's been in office. And what we are seeing as a result of the genocide in Gaza is the silencing of dissent and the silencing of those who are critical of U.S. policy.

And so I feel really strongly that when the U.S. lobs bombs or provides military assistance for killing civilians,

we see two things. One, repression and silencing of criticism at home here in the U.S., and the emergence of potential terrorist activity outside this country. And just yesterday, there was an alert about we need to be more mindful of potential reprisals. And the thing that

What concerns me is that we never look at the U.S. policy as creating the circumstances for those kinds of activities, that terrorism doesn't occur in a vacuum. It occurs as a result of might and power being exercised over people who have no right

to respond, either, you know, to defend themselves or their national interests, or because they feel that they're so angry at the

murder and decimation of people in their communities. And Palestinians are experiencing it firsthand. We're live streaming that genocide. So it's impossible for me not to see as a professor the impact of the silencing of criticism going forward becoming far worse. And as an Iranian American, I fear we'll be caught up more directly in that. Mark, in San Mateo,

Mateo, welcome to the show.

Oh, thank you. I kind of just wanted to echo that sentiment somewhat. I'm not Iranian-American. I'm not Iranian, so I can't speak to that background. But just the idea that, you know, I just was watching the news this morning, and they're kind of like, gee, you better be careful walking down the street. And I'm going, like, some cell's going to pop out of nowhere. And I think, you know, Trump, given his track record, is

Mark, appreciate that perspective. You know, Arman, I was talking with some Iranian friends of mine, and one of the things that they were worried about is kind of that Iranians might be directly caught up in some of these things as they're

potential enemies of the state kind of situation. Is that something that you're hearing echo? Yeah. I mean, so let's be frank. The way the FBI and other government institutions functions under a Trump administration is a lot different under, let's say, Biden or Obama. I'm not going to deny those differences. And

I think there's a lot more targeted people. You're seeing people get deported. You're seeing other people get, you know, the threshold on proving these allegations is a lot thinner. I feel like they act a lot quicker. There's a lot less due process. What I can talk about that I would...

I think is also very important is that the Islamic Republic itself through various, various tools is using propaganda to influence all of Western media. And I feel like

I've seen it happen in places as much as like Washington Post, New York Times. We have dissidents in Iran that have exposed some of these, you know, even on CNN and stuff like that. They've exposed it and they've been, they've paid the damages. There was a dissident who was an IT guy in Iran, Hossein Ronaghi, which I know Hasti could possibly expand on this.

He's been in hiding recently a lot and a lot of people have been worried about him. His dad and brother have been arrested recently.

beat up two, three times. He was live in an interview with a TV channel when security forces bust in and arrested him the first time. He's recently went on hunger strike is under strikes, sewn his lips shut and his may, he has sewn his lips shut for 17 days to man, the, um, the stopping of executions. This guy is known a lot.

In Iran is one of the most influential civil activists who's kind of been the continuing of a lot of true nationalistic and kind of like maybe nationalistic is wrong, but true Iranian identity activists. And these kind of people are.

are kind of inside Iran and frustrated that their message is getting convoluted on both sides, right and left in Western media. So I feel like, as my colleagues and friends on the panel have pointed out, there's a lot of different viewpoints, but we got to be careful as far as...

who may be using for their own political needs Iranian pain to say something that might not be the wants of Iranian people. And I could just hope for freedom, democracy, and secularism in Iran because that's the wants of our people. Let's bring in Dara in San Rafael. Welcome, Dara. Hi. Can you hear me okay? Yes, I can. Go ahead.

Okay, great. I just wanted to make a couple of quick points. One kind of touches on what you guys were talking about just now. I myself, you're an American. I came in 1979. So I lived through the very dark days of the hostage crisis and the blowback that we experienced here. 9-11, same thing. I mean, and there's been this continuous nonstop just like...

never-ending, seemingly negative demonization of the Iranians, not just the government. I know people constantly try to make that distinction, the Iranian-Americans do, but I don't think it has ever worked. I believe firmly that the American media and society in general just has an extremely negative view of us. So somehow this, I think, is helping justify and overlook the fact that these attacks were completely illegal. I despise the government of Iran. Don't get me wrong, but

The fact that these completely illegal attacks are completely justified and actually watch CNN, it's incredible. They're actually already talking about how, well, you know, we had to do this. So on the one hand, I think, unfortunately, just this negative demonization is helping make it easier to justify something that's unjustifiable and illegal on the one hand. And secondly...

As much as I would love to see a democratic regime in Iran and these bugs gone, the idea that somehow Israel would

with its track record is going to help usher in a democracy in Iran, to me, is just crazy. I mean, clearly, they've actually stated their goal of fracturing Iran. They're already extending support to Kurds, Baluchis, and Arabs, trying to split Iran up. I don't know how, unfortunately, so many Iranians, including some of the early callers, seem to be completely blind to this and think that somehow these guys are going to come in and usher in the

Great age. So those are my comments. Hey, uh, Dara, really appreciate it. Thanks. I really appreciate all of, uh, our Iranian American listeners calling in and sharing your perspectives, uh,

You know, Nahid, I was wondering if maybe you could talk a little bit about what you're seeing in the media. I have to say, just as a member, literal card-carrying member of the media here, it has been kind of a shock to see striking these nuclear facilities by the U.S. go from being something that was always known as a possibility and that was seen as an impossibility to now being seen almost like as an inevitability as now that it's happened. Like, it's kind of stunning. Yeah.

Yes. And, you know, I really appreciate the sentiments of your caller just now, Dora, because, you know, as much as Armand talks about Islamic Republic propaganda, which also exists, I actually just published an article in New Orleans magazine about propaganda in this war. And for years, you know, the heaviest money, the biggest money being spent on propaganda was

in the Persian language sphere and the Iranian sphere is Israeli money. And it's funded through all kinds of channels, including channels like Iran International, which is actually Saudi funded, but 100% sort of pro-Israeli in its politics.

And the idea has been this complete demonization of, you know, not just the Iranian government, but Iran as a threat. And so, you know, this goes back to what you just said, but also, you know, Arman talking about how nuclear scientists are targeted in their residential buildings and how, you know, it's difficult not to take out a few people alongside with them. But I mean, how can we even sit here and justify the targeting of scientists? You know, I mean, the fact that the propaganda has taken us to this place

where my fellow Iranian can even utter such sentiments. At the end of the day, Iran's nuclear program has been peaceful. It was in negotiations with, it has been in negotiations for more than 10 years with the U.S. government for decades.

You know, basically only only enriching to peaceful, you know, for peaceful purposes and not having a nuclear bomb. And all of these things could have been resolved had they been done through, you know, the first Trump government left the JCPOA that the Obama administration had worked out. And so I just want to say that, you know, unfortunately, this war that has now started has only delayed and set

Iranian, you know, freedom fighters attempts at reforming their own state and achieving an outcome that they can claim that they can be proud of because now the state can claim, look, we told you all along for 40 some years, we have told you death to America, death to Israel, because this is all they care to do is to destroy us. They're after us. They want to splinter Iran. And, you know, I bet you that that kind of discourse has now a whole lot more purchase

with a lot of Iranians. Real quick, Armand, I'm going to give you a chance to respond before we go to Leila on the phone. Okay, Hasti, you want to respond? Can I just point out something? I don't think Iranians, like at this point, want a reform of the government. I think they've been very clear that they want, like some people call it a regime change, some call it a revolution. So I think people of Iran have made it really clear that they don't think reform is possible when there's such a level of human rights violation. Mm-hmm.

I meant about 10 years ago. I agree. That is clear now. Since 2022, Women Live Freedom, we're in a new sphere of...

Like Nahid said earlier, we saw in the last presidential election, first round, 80 percent did not partake. That's according to the regime's numbers themselves. So if there was any hope in reform, you would have seen somebody. There was bakeries more crowded than the polling stations. Literally, there was. Did you see the video? The polling stations, people falling asleep. Let's bring in Layla, another voice here in San Francisco. Welcome.

Hi, I just wanted to say I was born in Iran, and I went back 20 years ago, and one of the things that I was struck with was how deeply religious so many people seemed. I think a lot of us, our parents left, are very anti-religious.

anti-organized religion, anti-Islamic to a degree, and I wasn't prepared for how profoundly religious people there were. I understand that an overwhelming majority are critical of the mismanagement and corruption of the government and the economic despair in Iran.

But I'm just wondering if that has changed. And I feel like people tend to rely on one singular interpretation of the Iranian people. But like with every other complex political issue or human issue, it could be more complicated. I know that there is distrust of the government, but I'm wondering if...

There is widespread support of a secular society, because I was personally shocked at how religious people seemed in different areas, different towns, different cities I visited.

And I would also like to see the anti-Islamic Persians and Iranians out there, I think I would like to see them speak up more about innocent deaths in Gaza. And I think that there has to be a humanitarian consciousness to recognize that the Islamic regime is awful, and to also have a humane care about slaughtered children in Gaza for just moral consistency.

Hey, Leila, appreciate that. How do you want to hop in here? That's a great point. I think I've been wondering a lot about how the Iranian community has been or hasn't been showing up for Gazans. And I think one part of that that I see no one talk about really is that like in a lot of pro-Palestinian rallies, you see the Islamic Republic rallying.

flag being waved or like no one really addresses the fact that Islamic Republic plays a really huge part in like with its proxies in what's going on in the region. And I think it's really alienating for Iranians to like want to participate in that freedom movement, but see their own like narratives and their own human rights issues.

violation being erased in that way and no one really addressing it. So I think there are conversations that need to be had in order to craft

that can hold both sides or like all of the different experiences of the Middle Easterners. A couple last ones here. Shabnam writes, as an Iranian American who grew up under the brutal dictatorship of the Islamic Republic, I want to express my deep appreciation for President Trump's leadership in confronting the threat posed by Iran's regime, especially its nuclear ambitions.

Sajjim is not only a threat to the stability of the Middle East and the national security of the United States, but also a direct cause of pain and suffering for millions of innocent Iranians, including my own family. I lost my mother because of Ayatollah Khamenei's inhumane order to ban Western COVID-19 vaccines. Sassan writes, I am an Iranian American in the North Bay. My question is, how can Iranians trust a president who is actively taking the U.S. to dictatorship to bring democracy to Iran? Paris, you want to respond? Yeah. Yeah.

I share the sentiment that the last email reflects, that if I had any confidence in the Trump administration wanting to offer something in the way of democratic modeling,

Perhaps, perhaps I could see this in some manner to be a quest for offering something new. I do not. I think Trump is an authoritarian president. I think he's undermining our own democratic principles by using this foreign intervention. And I will call it a foreign intervention because when you go bomb another country without offering something new,

the constitutional need for congressional discussion and debate, he's basically putting us in a position that yet again, Trump is violating one of our constitutional principles.

And so I think it's a mistake for us to think that he can offer anything in the way of a democratic future for Iran. We've been talking with members of the Iranian diaspora here in the U.S. about the U.S. entering the war between Iran and Israel. We've been joined by Persis Karim, head of the Iranian Diaspora Studies at SF State and also a writer and a poet.

Nahid Siamdouste, a journalist and professor in the Middle Eastern Studies Department at UT Austin. Hasti Jafari, playwright, cartoonist, and educator. And Arman Mahmoudi, a community organizer with Bay Area for Iran. Thank you all so much for joining us. Thank you so much to all of the members of our community who wrote in and called in with your takes. Thank you. I'm Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for another hour of Forum Ahead with Mina Kim.

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