Forum from the Archives: Tune-Yards’ Merrill Garbus on How She Makes Her Signature Sounds, Live in Studio
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From KQED. From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Alexis Madrigal, and this week we're celebrating the Bay Area's great musicians by listening back on their live performances on Forum. Today we have a singer who's been one of my favorite musicians for almost 15 years, Meryl Garbus of Tune Yarns.

She's a performer who uses her voice to open up new pathways to even thinking about voices. She's also a longtime Oakland resident who, like the rest of us, is reckoning with a world that seems to be spinning out of control. She's coming up next, right after this news. ♪

Welcome to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal. It's Friday. We're here in the studio with musician Meryl Garbus, who's one half of the Oakland duo Tune Yards. They've got a new album out. It's called Better Dreaming. The latest single, How Big is the Rainbow, has already become one of my favorite songs. It is the kind of song, as I've told Meryl already, that you place at the very beginning of a mixtape or Spotify playlist to signal to the listener...

Listen, I'm not messing around here and I know what I'm doing. In any case, we're going to listen to some bits from the new album. Meryl's going to play around with her keyboard and I don't know, it looks like about 20 pedals down there. And we're going to talk about how the Bay Area seeps into her music, her incredible voice, Tune Yard's collaboration with Boots Riley and being a human being in a dehumanizing age. Welcome, Meryl.

Thank you. So glad to be here. You're going to play a little something right off the top, huh? I think so. Yep. Here I go. Are you ready? Well, I think so. This is like the greatest moment of my week, so I don't know if I'm ready. Happy Friday.

I knock the corners of my little batted by bruises of the freedom clay.

I might find another heartbreak, another heartbreak, another heartbreak, another heartbreak, because I feel it or feel nothing at all. You can't erase someone just because they broke your son. Your son's alive.

Heartbreak Watching them fall Break One, seventeen Two, thirty Three and three Leave me three Break In a part I feel some Space and say Watch me say Five and three Heartbreak

Heartbreak another. Heartbreak another. Heartbreak because I feel it or feel nothing. Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You're gonna meet someone. You can have one another. Heartbreak, oh no. You can't erase someone. Broke your soul.

♪ Your son's in love inside a heartbreak ♪ ♪ Watching them fall ♪ ♪ Watching them fall ♪ ♪ And I'm ♪

♪ My name is Owen ♪

Oh my god, that was, if you can believe it, only one Meryl Garbus in here. That was a rendition of the song Heartbreak.

Honestly, I wish I could describe to listeners what was happening in here. Meryl's mouth is doing things that are truly amazing, like just the movement. She's moving around on the mic, like using, like panning us left and right just by moving her body in here. And the only thing I can say is her feet are drumming, right? Would you describe it that way? Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, absolutely. It is incredible. Let's describe the setup here. There are about, I'm going to say, 12 things down there by your feet. What's down there? What's even what's going on? Okay, so for the radio listeners, right, I've got a mic going into this thing called a voice box, and the voice box lets me

harmonize my voice so we can't hear right now but I'll show it to you later that it's also just amplifying the signal and then that goes into an a b pedal which splits the signal left and right you really want to know all of this I'm loving it I'm loving it and then uh so loop a it goes into loop a and loop b is what I call them so a goes into a loop station a boss loop station um I have two of those and they're not connected in any way um

And then each loop station goes through effects. So the left one goes through a whammy pedal, which I'll describe later. And then the right one goes through a space echo pedal. And then the others, truthfully, I'm not using three of the pedals on this board, which go to the ukulele, which if people come and see us play live, I promise I will use those. Oh, my God. It's incredible. We are going to talk more about looping later. I want to talk about your voice, though. Truly one of the most interesting in all of recorded music.

And some years ago you said, "Something that really freed me with my voice and my singing is that I no longer attempted to sound pretty and to find the ugliest parts of my voice because if I could share those with an audience, then I had nothing left to be ashamed of." Bury your ugly soul to your audiences and you've got nothing else to hide. - Whoa, I said that? - You said that, you said that.

I thought it was so interesting because to me, what your voice is doing is almost revealing this other dimension to vocal performance that's kind of not even on the same spectrum as like pretty to ugly. Cool. Yeah, I'm glad I said that. I do think that's true. And I do think it's a recommitment because I think that...

Um, when we record, I often want to smooth out or erase the parts of myself that are not so pretty. So say we all. Yeah, right? So I'm not alone there, but, um...

But I do think there's a recommitment to, especially in this day, I don't even want to, can I, I'm just going to say in the day of AI, and then can we not say AI for the rest of the interview? But we can, if you need to, if you need to. But there's this element of humanity, I think, in those, you know, maybe ugly is the wrong word, but just the...

unique and human parts of our voice, you know? But I mean, I feel like you really find the edges of what a voice is. Was that something that you intentionally set out to do or was that just you opened your mouth to sing and that's what came out? A lot of it was I opened my mouth to sing and that's what came out. Let's see. I also, I had a, I've, a lot of my journey with my voice is vocal struggle. So I, I, you know, I have,

a history of I sang in choirs when I was a kid and learned a bit of, um, and, and a teenager in high school, I'm singing in a mat and a magical choir, which is why I love your last name. And, uh, and there was, there was a lot of attention to that kind of classical technique. And, um,

And then I sang in college a cappella groups and there is no attention to technique there. And I found myself, you know, striving to be a pop singer, doing all these covers of Stevie Wonder, you know, U2 things that I sang in college. And and there was a there was a strain that I was putting on my voice and that that strain caused me eventually when I was in a rock band singing over electric guitar and drums to

to really get to a place where I was losing the middle of my range and was too broke to go to a vocal doctor to figure out what it actually was. So this is a long way of saying that I come to my voice by trying to undo some bad technique that I was using and then figuring out how I could use my voice in the state that I was in. So one of the first 2-yard songs was called "Hatari" and it had a yodel in it because I had lost that mid-range and all I could do was go

And a friend of mine, may she rest in peace, she's not around anymore. She was like, you know, there's this whole tradition of singing, you know, from people in Central Africa who's that are base and in Europe and Balkans too, right? There's traditions of singing that are based around yodeling. Why don't you try that? So a lot of that was exploration that was necessitated by my vocal, you know, strain, I would say.

Let's bring in a little more of your music. We're going to toss here to recorded music here, Water Fountain, one of your most popular songs, also dedicated to the municipal governance of Oakland here.

We are with Meryl Garbus, one half of Tune Yards. They've got a new album called Better Dreaming. Of course, if you have questions for Meryl or you have a favorite Tune Yard song you want to shout out, you can give us a call, 866-733-6786, forum at kqed.org. You can find us on social media, Blue Sky, Instagram, etc. This is the song Water Fountain by Tune Yards. Nice KJC.

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Welcome back to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal. We're having a listening party with some live performances by Meryl Garbus, one half of Tune Yards with her partner Nate.

They are based in Oakland and we just heard a song going into the break, Water Fountain. And it has the line, no water in the water fountain. And as I understand it, the first lyrics of this song came to you as you were walking around Lake Merritt. Yeah. And what happened? You just saw municipal disrepair?

You were like, that is the basis of a hit pop song. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, exactly. Just like everything. I think of a little ditty and I think that's going to be a hit pop song someday. I yeah. I mean, do you know do you know the one the Lake Merritt by the library there on the side of the pillars? There's a water fountain that just never worked or it worked just a dribble that you would never want to put your face near. Yeah.

Yeah, I definitely, there was something about living. I think Oakland's amazing and hilarious. And I mean, cruel, hilarious. And I love your book. I've been nerding out on your book. And I'm realizing how little I actually know about the city that I live in. Of course, it is a deep city.

multi-layered city with all these different perspectives. But there I was, yeah, there was a water fountain that didn't work and I thought about how there's this conversation in Oakland a lot around taxes and not taxes and taxes and not taxes and of course that's in our country as well. And then like where are all the things that we're supposed to use if we don't pay money for those things that we need to use. Yeah. How did Oakland first start seeping into your music?

Um, well, it, it couldn't help but seep in, I think, from, so the first Tune Yards record came out in 2008 while I was living in Montreal. And, and then I moved to Oakland to be with Nate Brenner, who, who's the other half of the band. And

At home with your kid right now. At home with him, yes. They said, I was like, don't listen. And they were like, we're listening. They're listening. Hi. Hi, you two. And so I moved out here in 2009. And then Who Kill, our next record, came out in 2011. So all those songs, Gangsta was written on 7th Ave in Oakland, looking out the window and noticing these teenagers were starting to

shoot up the neighborhood and start their like 12 year old gang. Um, and yeah, so, and so literally just every, every song that came out between 2009 and, and now has had Oakland woven into it somehow. How do you think your both experience of, and kind of our artistic conversation with Oakland has kind of changed over the years? Hmm. I mean, evolving as I'm evolving, I guess. Um,

I know that for me, I've been able and really privileged to kind of, to be welcomed and learn so much from different communities in Oakland. So when we did Water Fountain, for instance, I had been studying Haitian drums with Danielle Breville, who was working with a company called Rarotulime here in the Bay. And Portia Jefferson taught me to dance in her classes on Alice Street at Malanga Center. And that was a huge influence and inspiration.

on that record. And, and then looking into at post that I was examining being a white person and making music that's very influenced by black music of all kinds. And, and that got me into studying whiteness from a Buddhist perspective at East Bay Meditation Center. So that community really welcomed that conversation there. So, so I've kind of, you know, and meanwhile we've had the studio downtown on 15th street for, for,

over a decade now. And so just living in East Oakland and working downtown and seeing, you know, the condo be constructed across the street from our studio slowly. Some really tragic things happening on our block. Some really wonderful, beautiful things. Just watching Oakland, right? Witnessing and being part of the city. Let's hear another song. We're going to hear How Big Is The Rainbow off the new album Better Dreaming. ♪

I feel no shame except the shame you throw at me. I know that I'm safer in this. Do you feel the hate inside? Do you need to start over? Just know just how much you hate.

That is "How Big Is The Rainbow." I just spared you all me singing it, but I was mouthing it here in the studio. It's off the new album from Tune Yards called "Better Dreaming." We're joined by Meryl Garbus, who of course is the singer instrumentalist in one half of the Oakland-based duo. I mean, I love this song so much. Tell us about this song, "How Big Is The Rainbow." What's going on? Oh, what can I say about this song?

Well, the words kind of just fell from my mouth. Yeah. And...

And I was like, really? How big is the rainbow? As with Water Fountain, which I also tried to not put on our record because I was like, it's just too obvious and simplistic. And this one, I was like, no, I think actually I need to finish the song. And Nate helped me stop complicating it so much. And I think we really wanted to just make it a four on the floor banger song.

in a time of intolerance and horror, really, for the trans community especially. And it is a reference to the rainbow of pride. Sure. I mean, among other things. Among other things, right. I mean, I think, yes, of course, how can it not? And I think for me, it's funny because here's some Haitian percussion underneath you can hear there. That's Danielle there.

I'm so happy to have him on this record too.

I think that there's this, for me, you know, I was like, well, it's not really how big is the rainbow, but like, you know, how many different shades, how many different hues could be within the rainbow? And that just didn't fit lyrically as well. But yeah, I think I've always found that I want more room. I want more room for me. And I've been really grateful to people, you know, to activists and people who are younger than me embracing, you know, different stories.

so many ways and and claiming space like I want space for my gender identity I want space for my sexual identity and um and although I haven't you know I'm married to a cis man and and I've dated women and I've dated men like I've really been you know I've been pretty quiet about that for myself and it felt really important to me to just be like here here we are let's let's broaden this rainbow

I'll give you one rainbow fact while you get set up for look at your hands. I think we can do a little demo with our hands. But do you know that the...

sense that there isn't a smooth gradient in the rainbow is actually like an optical illusion. There aren't hard lines between the different parts of a real rainbow in the sky. In fact, it's totally smooth and it's just our brains and eyes kind of put those lines in there. That seems like a very big metaphor, Alexis. For how big is the rainbow? Even inside, it's bigger than it seems. Totally.

All right, you want to play? Sure. So this might be a good time for a little nerding out about what I'm doing here. Is that possible? Yes. Go. Okay, so I want to talk about looping. Okay, so check one, check two. You got me here. Okay, so I'm going to...

This is one looping pedal. I'm going to say one looping pedal, one looping pedal, one looping pedal, one looping pedal, one loop. And this looping pedal is going through this whammy pedal, which harmonizes it. So this is me turning the whammy pedal on. One looping pedal, one looping pedal, one looping pedal. And you can hear my voice now. It's being harmonized here. Okay.

That's amazing. That sounds great. That's going straight to the next record. That's right. Hit single. Okay, so this one, as you can see, is going through a delay pedal. Echo. Delay. Okay. So with my looping, there's no connection between the sampler that I'm about to play. So here's a sampler.

So I'm going to play this beat and I'm, and I'm, I'll perform the song. And, and I think what I'm going to promise you is that I'm going to, if I mess up, I'm going to stop and explain what just happened.

Okay, so I'll perform this song called Look at Your Hands. And what I guess I want to explain to the audience. Oh, and I did want to explain this voice box, which does let me harmonize myself if I want to. Okay.

I won't use that on this song. That's there. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to try to match the machine. And there's no connection between the timing of the machine and the timing of my loop pedal. That's just me practicing a lot to try to get it super tight. So as we discussed before, if I'm wearing shoes, which I'm not right now, that would be bad because the timing would be a millisecond off.

So I'm barefoot. I mean, socks. Smart wool, everyone. Smart wool. Okay. So here I go. I'll try. And then if I, I'm kind of hoping that I'll mess up the timing so that I can explain. Here I go. Your hands, your hands, look at your hands, your hands. Look at all the objects in your hands, your hands, your hands. Look.

Your hands your hands Your hands your hands

He got the shadow to follow the foe. He got got that thing to go. La la locked and loaded and ready to go. He got lots of things to go on. He got the shadow to follow the foe. He got got that thing to go. La la locked and loaded and ready to go. He got lots of things to go. La la locked and loaded and ready to go. He got got that thing to go. La la locked and loaded and ready to go. He got he got the shadow to follow the foe. He got the shadow to follow the foe.

♪ He got the shadow to follow ♪ ♪ He got the shadow to follow ♪ ♪ He got that thing to go ♪ ♪ He got lots of things to go ♪ ♪ Harmony ♪ ♪ Harmony ♪ ♪ Human voices are free ♪ ♪ Harmony ♪ ♪ He got the shadow to follow ♪ ♪ He got the shadow to follow ♪ ♪ He got the shadow to follow ♪ ♪ He got the shadow to follow ♪

Your hands, your hands, your hands, your hands. Look at all the objects in your hands, your hands. La la look at your hands, your hands.

Sorry, we're in here alone. I feel like after a performance there needs to be somebody screaming. Just watching your feet work, you're turning knobs with your toes, you're tapping so many different things, and you've got the sampler going up there.

Do you feel like there's a different, like, hive off pieces of your brain to do each thing? Like, how does that work? Like, inside, like, what does that feel like to be doing three entirely separate things? Mm-hmm.

I mean, I'll say that having been pregnant and then had a kid, and people talk about brain frog. Yeah, people talk about brain frog. You see, after doing that, I have no more brain power left. I can't even speak anymore.

It just becomes, that's why I just need to practice a lot, honestly, which in this day and age is a very pleasurable way to actually spend time. You know, I have to spend a lot of hours and Nate and I spend a lot of hours. I should really mention that all of these songs usually have incredible bass behind them. So Nate's not here with me this morning, but Nate and I spend a lot of time practicing just so that I can get these things started.

tight enough so that I don't have to think actually it's pretty you just carve it into the old muscle memory yeah yeah exactly wow but you're not thinking when you're doing I'm only thinking it's like a it's a cool improvisational tool I guess you know that I can just I can use them like you say as drums right so that I'm kind of doing I'm improvising rhythmically with them which is really fun

So cool. That's from a previous album. We have another song from the new album we're going to play here. It's called Sanctuary. Anything you want to say to set up Sanctuary, or should we just listen? Let's listen. Okay, good. We're having a listening party, getting some live performances from one half of Tune Yards. Meryl Garbus is...

They have a new album, not we. They have a new album, Better Dreaming. It is out now. You can find it all the places where you can find music. You can also give us a call. We might get a chance to squeeze some people in in the next 20 minutes. 866-733-6786, forum at kqed.org. I'm Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more right after this. I started with walking long distances. Then I licked my fingers and I couldn't see the outline of my own hands.

I know I'm supposed to have a sense of self by now, but what if the knowledge of where you came from, of what you come from, kills the self, should kill the self. I know who I am. I know who I am. I don't believe in it though. I don't believe in a self that survives time. I'm going to stay low and slow and let go of the climes.

I know who I am. I don't believe in it though. I don't believe in a self that survives time. She looked me straight in the lion's mane. On the street building his image in his name. I know who I am. I don't need to fly to New York.

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Welcome back to Forum. Alexis Madrigal here. We are with one half of Tune Yards, Merrill Garbus. They have a new album out. A few comments from listeners. These are beautiful. Keep these coming. Ben writes,

That song about heartbreak just brought me to tears and I'm so grateful. Thank you. Casey on the discord writes, I love the song power. Talk about range. Very fun to sing along in my vein attempt to get even close to garbage. I feel empowered to sing along. I was going to say, please sing along. Uh,

Our announcer operator, Sandy Aldhouse, also writes to say, I am guilty of overplaying the New Yorker Radio Hour promo for the weekend show just because Tune Yards plays under David Remnick's voice. I love it. I do love that, too. Let's play another song. Let's play Limelight here. This is off the new album, Limelight by Tune Yards. Mm-hmm.

Baby's all good, shine is all good

This is Limelight by Two Yards. Off the new album, Better Dreaming. Is that your kid at the beginning of the song? It sure is. And my dog, actually. Our dog is in there going... You're just like, thank God the mics were on. Yeah.

Tell me about what it has been for you to have a kid. I mean, you were a touring musician for 15 years before you had a kid, you know, maybe, I don't know, a long time. Yeah. How has that changed the kind of music making, music playing process for you?

Well, it changes everything, right? So, yeah, everything's different. But beautiful. I mean, I feel like there's a lot of needing to shake my life up that I've needed to do, I think, along my life of just wanting to...

um, explore what it is to be alive and certainly having, you know, birthing, birthing life. We'll do that. Um, but we, you know, I think it's given us Nate and I both, um, totally new perspective on, on time, for instance, you know, like we only have, we used to spend way now in retrospect, too many hours, um, editing and mixing and, um,

you know, kind of trying to quote unquote perfect music, which what is that? Perfect our imperfect sound. And, and I think now having this time limitation has really just, you know, we've been saying first thought, best thought. And I think there's a freshness as a result in the, in the creativity itself. Yeah. So cool. And, and,

Lyrically, this one's also kind of different, too. We all get free in the family. We all get free. We all get free. I mean, as part of that, I mean, I think as a parent myself, particularly in these times, I find myself wanting to not just say optimistic things, but also to like have joy in the family and have like a space where it's like, hey, you know what? Whatever's going on out there is going on out there. But in here, you know, we all get free.

Right, right. And I would like to say I'm also uncomfortable with having a song where I say we all get free. And I still wanted to...

you know, honor the Fannie Lou Hamer quote of, I'm going to bastardize it, of course, because I'm on live radio, but like, but the, the idea that no one gets free until we're all free. And I think, you know, it does feel, you know,

It feels like how do, how do I live that? You know, how do I live that as a, as a white person in Oakland, for instance, how do I live that as a person, um, whose musical influences are so much from Africa and the diaspora? Um, so, so I think, you know, I wanted to challenge myself to be like, well, what do you mean, Meryl? What does that mean? And then also, yeah, what does it mean to get, you know, that it feels like at this time in the world, um,

There's no time to not be free. And we owe it to each other to be our free selves. So yeah, it's still, you know, like the kids are all right, the baby's all right. Those were also hard lyrics to put out into the world in such a joyful way, you know, because...

the kids are not all free and the babies are not all right. And I, you know, enough people said, that's the, that's the song that, you know, the record label said, that's the one that we want to release first. And I was like, okay. You know, people need joy. I think, you know, being pretty deep in the queer community, though, I do end up feeling like,

people's freedom does open up freedom for other people. Not always, but it can, right? There's a certain kind of living into freedom that generates new possibilities for other people. Oh, totally. Which is why we owe the queer community everything. Yes, totally. Let's bring in Daniel in Berkeley. Welcome, Daniel.

Hi, thank you so much. A couple things. First, this reminds me of Hadestown, the musical. Not so much in exactly how it sounds, but the story of it and the fact that, like, though the story is so sad, we, like, continue to sing it again because, like, that's what we do to live, you know, and to survive. So there's that sort of joy in it.

which is really beautiful. The other quick thing I wanted to say is like, I took my oldest kid to their first concert a couple weeks ago and it was Stray Kids, which is like a Korean pop band. And as much as I, you know, I loved it and they really loved it. But there was something so sort of not

non-improvisational, you know, about that. And so this is just, like, so refreshing, you know, in that sense, it's so human. So I really, really appreciate that. And that leads me to the last question, or the last comment, which is I really want to bring my 10-year-old to the concert next week, but, like, I don't know if it's appropriate in terms of lyrics, in terms of loudness. So any suggestions on...

on that. That's a great, thank you so much. Oh, thank you so much. Um, that, that is a really good question. I think, um, I would, the UC theater, I'm not, I can't remember if it's an all ages show, first of all. So sometimes when it, when it is inappropriate, like as in there's lots of drinking and carousing and, um, um, that, you know, they'll, they'll be able to tell you, you know, for the show, at least in Berkeley, um, uh, just,

and I would say in general, don't worry later on in the summer, there may be an opportunity for a younger audience. And I really, really love doing all ages shows. And I would say in general, I, we, we see kids at our shows all the time. I mean, even, even at shows where I'm like, really my, my three-year-old's asleep, but,

We just toured the East Coast and there were toddlers out at 9, 10 p.m. So I think it's really, you know, my toddler is going to be backstage at our show in L.A., for instance. There's a, you know, at

I, you know, we for limelight, there's a swear in there and people have been talking about like, you know, why is there a swear in a in a song that like kids I hope will love. Kids love swears. What are you talking about? That's the thing. Kids love swears. And also, if we can't swear, if kids can't handle a swear word, I'm just yeah, I'm curious about how we as adults and we I'm speaking as a Gen X adult, what I'm trying to protect my kid from.

And that what about what about all the kids that aren't protected from those things? And and where do we need to grow resilience in our kids and an understanding of where things are? Sure. Appropriate or not appropriate. But but also just, yeah, just kind of being meeting our kids where they need to be now in 2025. Do you want to play one more thing? Suspended. Sure. Yeah. Cool.

I'm just gonna bring it down here. Ooh, little one. What a happy thing to meet you in a dream. You joined me for a swim. I reached out, you jumped right in. Ooh, little one. So we stretched and licked with air.

I don't remember swimsuit or underwear It had been so long since my limbs were held in space Suspended That day was crazy like they say I slept underneath his bed The worst was around 8pm

Little one, a thousand planes up in the air.

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪

Hey.

That was awesome. That was suspended. Meryl Garb is playing live here in the studio. She's won half of Tune Yards with Nate Brenner. They are an Oakland-based duo, of course. They've got a new album, Better Dreaming Out. They've also got a show in Berkeley on the 13th.

One thing I wanted to ask you about was how different it was for you to collaborate with Boots Riley on, you know, these kind of film works and whether like was the process for that like totally different than your sort of normal music? Do you think it changed the way that this album, which I think some people think it's a little more accessible now?

Do you think it changed things for you? Yeah, Boots Riley made us way more accessible. I mean, I'm laughing also because Boots Riley made us, I think, believe in our...

in our unique voice, you know? I mean, my voice in particular, I feel like very honored that he's allowed me to have my voice be all over his films and TV. Yeah, we're working on, we were working on I'm a Virgo when we were, right before we made this record and now we're working on his next film. And I, yes, I think the, I mean,

I mean, certainly it's different. And I was joking yesterday that it's, yeah, I'm not the boss, first of all. Like we're working towards someone's vision. I think with Tune Yards, because I started it as a solo thing, Nate's always really deferred to me as the kind of whatever you want to call it, executive producer of the whole thing and the kind of the vision of the whole thing. And of course, Boots is the executive producer of his own thing. And that's been really wonderful, honestly, to have that shift of vision

Knowing that our art can serve someone else's art and someone whose art I believe in so much. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what is it like now to be launching an album versus when you did start out? You know, 2009, it just feels like, you know, talking to musicians on the show, it feels like things are so, so different now and maybe worse. I don't know.

Right. Yeah. Maybe worse. Exactly. Maybe, maybe worse question mark. Yeah. Maybe. I mean, I came, I came up, I feel like I've benefited the most. I came up in my space, you know? So I've been, um, I've been, I've had the, the access to like what's inexpensive about releasing music onto the internet. And then I think we, um, had built enough of a base that we, you know, um, you know, screw, screw Spotify for sure. And, uh,

You know, I would be lying if I didn't say that we made money from Spotify because we are on a bigger record label that has the power to strike a deal with Spotify. So we are in a very, again, privileged space there. However, yeah, it's weird, man. Yeah.

There's like a lot of the infrastructure of that stuff has gone away. Sure. But I think of you when I think of infrastructure now because of your book and how just thinking about like we are making choices all the time as a

a culture really about like what we want to have around us and that includes stores right like physical stores um and i think with music too if we i'll tell the listeners here today if you love music and you like music that isn't generated by i said it ai then um

then it is up to us to, to support and ask musicians, you know, band camp, for instance, pays more than these other streaming services or by actually buy a physical record still helps us and buying physical merch still helps us. And, um, and then the incredible culture of Patreon, you know? So, um, so I think it's up to us to build the world that we want. That sounds super cheesy, but it's

That's a good ending. Just put that on loop, you know? We have been having a listening party and some live performances from Meryl Garbus, Tune Yard, her band with Nate Brenner. Got a new album out called Better Dreaming. Thank you so, so much for joining us. You're the best. Thank you. This is such an honor. I'm a forum nerd. Love our forum nerds.

The 9 o'clock Hour Forum is produced by Grace Juan Blanca Torres and Jennifer Ng, who is also our engagement producer. Our interns are Brian Vo and Jesse Fisher. Francesca Fentis, our digital community producer. Judy Campbell's lead producer. Danny Bringer is our engineer. Thank you so much for the work on this show. And special thanks to Paul Lancourt, too. Katie Springer is the operations manager of KQED Podcast. Our vice president of news is Ethan Tovan-Lindsey. And our chief content officer is Holly Kernan.

We're going out to the song Swarm Off Better, Dreaming. I'm Alexis Magical. Stay tuned for another album forum ahead. ♪

Funds for the production of Forum are provided by the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, the Generosity Foundation, and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

Hey, Forum listeners, it's Mina. I have exciting news. We're taking Forum Beyond the Airwaves, Beyond Podcasts, to your screens. Now you can watch the Forum conversations you love and be in the room with me, Alexis, and our guests as we talk about the Bay Area, California, and beyond. Check it out at youtube.com slash kqednews, youtube.com slash kqednews.

Hey Forum listeners, it's Alexis. Did you hear that Forum is launching a video podcast? It is true! Each week we'll drop a video recording of a recent Forum episode on the KQED News YouTube channel. We can't wait to bring you into the studio for our conversations on Bay Area culture, California news, and beyond.

Our first few episodes are out now. Just visit YouTube.com slash KQED News to see it all. That's YouTube.com slash KQED News. Hey, it's Glenn Washington, the host of the Snap Judgment podcast. At Snap, we tell cinematic stories that let you feel what it's like inside someone else's skin. Stories that let you walk in someone else's footsteps. Storytelling like you've never heard before.

The highs, the lows, the joys, the pain, the twists, the turns, the laughs, the life. Snap Judgment drops each and every week. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.