Gen Z Embraces Trades as the College-to-Career Pipeline Cracks
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From KQED. From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Mina Kim. Coming up on Forum, how Gen Z is embracing blue-collar and skilled trade jobs. The expectation for decades has been go to college, get a degree, and land a good-paying white-collar job. But many in Gen Z are questioning that. With rising student debt, an uncertain job market, and concerns about automation from AI, more young people are rethinking what a good career means.

We look at why the trades appear to offer Gen Z a safe haven and how safe it really is. Join us after this news.

Welcome to Forum. I'm Nina Kim. More than half of Gen Z's say a well-paying job is possible with only a high school diploma and skill building, according to a New America survey. And more than a third of college grads are turning to a blue-collar or skilled trade job, says a survey last month from Resume Builder. Things like electrical work, plumbing, welding, veterinary care, and EMT roles.

Is this you or someone you know? This hour, we look at what's been driving the trend and hear from people who've decided against an office job for a hands-on career. Joining me first is Amanda Hoover, senior correspondent at Business Insider, whose recent piece is called From PowerPoint to Plumbing. Amanda, welcome to Forum. Thanks so much for having me. Glad to have you. So tell me, why are they turning from PowerPoint to plumbing? What are the drivers that's enticing Gen Z?

Yeah, there's a number of factors that we're seeing right now. Obviously, student debt continues to be a problem. We're also, though, seeing that that's bumping up against a lot of concern about the way that AI is going to change a lot of college degree jobs. There's less hiring. There's perception that really stable degrees like software engineering, marketing, working in HR, even the legal profession, like there's

concern that AI could really cut out kind of the entry-level jobs and that companies might look to AI for more of these tasks that are typically done by entry-level workers, which could lead to a real reshuffling of the number of people needed in these fields, how long it takes to get a job, what entry-level work looks like. A lot of young people are pretty concerned about how AI is changing the job field, and we don't quite know how that's all going to shake out yet.

But areas that it's not really affecting and changing are things like electrical work, plumbing, construction. You know, it's not changing these fields in terms of replacing workers. It might be automating certain aspects, but when you need people to do hands-on work, you can get that done with a chatbot.

Yeah. And so you touched on this, but what other specific roles do they seem to be drawn to? And what kind of work environments or work experiences do you hear them seeking when you did your reporting? What did they tell you? Yeah. Well, for the story that I reported, I talked to two people who...

have started their own businesses. And they were sort of interesting case studies because one is in landscaping, one is in pressure washing. So they really spun out something that they were kind of doing, you know, a classic teenager, high school, after school, summer job, like going around mowing grass, pressure washing somebody's house. They've now turned these into businesses. And what they really love, you know, one

one of these young men told me he doesn't love mulching, but he loves the entrepreneurial spirit of being a businessman, being his own boss. He's now hired a few people, bought a bunch of equipment. And for him, really, like he enjoys working with the customers. He enjoys what he said, I think, as well, was that whatever you put into it really feels like that's what you get out. And as he's looking around at some of his peers who are in college and, you

studying a ton, like working really hard, they don't know that they're going to have that job security at the end. So for him, that was really like a motivator to skip college and start his own business instead. And I got this stat from your piece, but the fastest growing industry for new college grads is construction? Yes. And that's in a number of ways, you know, for that's not necessarily that they're all working in construction, but the support, the jobs that support the industry as well.

But there's going to be a lot more jobs in construction because we need to build more houses in this country. We need to update a lot of the infrastructure. So these jobs will be pretty plentiful in a lot of ways for young people. Those jobs, what do you find are the fastest growing jobs or the jobs that seem to be most available to this generation? Yeah, some of the data shows that

We're going to see a lot of growth when it comes to wind turbine technicians and solar panel installers. There's also still growing roles in health care and some in tech when it comes to like information security and data analysts. But all jobs in construction, plumbing, electrical work, transportation, they're all projected to grow faster than the average, you know, throughout kind of the next decade.

Well, I want to bring into the conversation now 25-year-old Francisco Serrano, who decided to enter the construction trade. Francisco, welcome to Forum. Hi, Francisco. Are you there? Yeah, I'm here. So, Francisco, what drew you to construction and what kind of work are you doing now? Right now, I'm a laborer for a construction and basically what brought me into this is the career path and just...

Basically, the way you could build your future is being in the construction industry instead of just a regular American job, I guess I want to say. What were you doing before? Before this, actually, I used to be in education. So I used to be a program manager for an after school program. So I was in charge of a bunch of middle schoolers. So then what are you doing in your role right now as a laborer for Swinerton that you really enjoy? Like, is it are you working with your hands? Is that part of it?

Yeah, honestly, I like working on my hands. And one of the big thing is, so before I used to like help out the kid and give him a safe space to like be at. But now I'm actually helping build these environments in like parks, rec centers, schools. I currently am working on a project in Sunnyvale, building an elementary school for them. Oh, wow. So do you think your generation's perception of skilled trades differs from previous generations?

Yeah, honestly, because a lot of people that I've just been meeting here in the industry and are my age and they all kind of just went straight into construction instead of going to your typical college or getting their regular nine to five jobs. They see themselves doing this way more. And when you were in high school, say, did people encourage you to go into construction or the trades?

Yes and no. My school kind of did have a building and construction like trade thing at our school, but they didn't really push it towards the students. It was kind of a thing you participated in. So then what have been some of your biggest challenges in terms of adapting to this work?

Honestly, some of the biggest challenges probably was just kind of getting out of my comfort zone and talking to a lot of people here. I was kind of scared to ask for help, but over time that became super easy. People actually come up to me and want to help me instead of me going up to them trying to figure it out. Yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear that that's one of the biggest challenges. What did you find most helpful when you were making this transition? Well, I found more helpful was I went to this pre-

pre-apprenticeship program called City Build. And I kind of did that for 12 weeks. And then they kind of have a bunch of teachers there that kind of mentor you into this role instead of just teaching you how to do it. So that's what I really love a lot. So we kind of had one-on-one classes. They teach you how to

adapt into this environment instead of just being thrown out there and they teach you the goods and the bads, obviously. They're not just going to throw you out there and just you figure out the bads. So that's what I really loved, like city building, the academy, and it was amazing. How long was the program? It was a 12-week program. Really? Wow, that's pretty quick. Yeah, 12 weeks. And so are you getting people asking you about making this transition too or people that you are encouraging to make this transition? Yeah.

Yeah, so actually, it's kind of funny. So one of my little cousins just got accepted into the previous cycle. And then one of my old like staff members, I used to be in charge of a transition as well with me. So he's part of this cycle as well now. So what piece of advice would you give to someone making this change? Honestly, if you like working with your hand and

Want to try something new, not just work on the same thing over and over and over again every single day. This is something for you because every single day is something different. And you learn a whole bunch of new skills and a bunch of people. And then networking is the biggest thing here. Francisco Serrano, thanks so much for talking with us.

Of course. You have a good day. You too. Francisco is a former educator turned tradesperson, a graduate of City Build Academy. And we're talking with Amanda Hoover, senior correspondent at Business Insider. And you, our listeners, are invited to join in. Are you a Gen Z worker who's chosen the trades or a hands-on career? What drew you to it? Maybe you're a

parent of a Gen Zer who's chosen skilled work or a trade. What questions do you have about how to pursue a career in the trades or advice you'd give if you were a trade worker of another generation? 866-733-6786 is the number to call. Email forum at kqed.org or find us on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, or threads at kqedforum.com.

Joining me now is Iowena Pena, Director of Workforce Development at San Francisco's Office of Economic and Workforce Development. Iowena, thanks so much for being with us. Thanks for having me. So, city build is one of your department's programs, right? Are you seeing a growth in interest?

Absolutely. And hi, Francisco. It's great to hear from you. We're consistently seeing an increase in our Gen Z applicant pool. About 25 percent of our applications that we're seeing are from that generation. And I think the draw here is, like Francisco was saying, it's a 12 week program that then sets folks up to have a break.

really accessible learning experience that allows for immediate placement into a job. Their earning potential there is, you know, when we're thinking about what draws Gen Z to the types of programs that our office supports, it's the matching of instant gratification with the short and very focused learning track and path that they're put on. Instant gratification. What do you mean by that? I mean, like,

This is not a negative. I think with the learning environment and kind of like the world in which this generation is growing up within, the ability to access information immediately is right at their fingertips. So we needed to design our education and therefore our workforce training programs to fit that kind of model. And so CitiBuild's an example of where you have a short track of learning

courses, if you will, in learning, hands-on learning opportunities where folks can have that kind of experience. But, you know, some of our other programs are very similar in that regard, and that you're going to spend a couple of weeks on a very focused career trajectory that then allows for you to enter the workforce after you complete the program.

So what do you attribute to the growth you're seeing and interest you're seeing, especially among Gen Z in programs like CityBuild? This is a very intentional generation. And what I mean by that is this is a generation of folks who were,

what they decide to invest their time in their learning in is really seated in their values, their moral compass, if you will. And so I think what, what is attractive about city build tech SF, our healthcare Academy, which we do in partnership with them, with some of our community-based orgs out there is that these folks will enter this and they're the immediate skills that they're, that they're attaining also align with the value and impact that they want to have in the world.

We're talking with Ioanna Pena, Director of Workforce Development at San Francisco's Office of Economic and Workforce Development. Amanda Hoover, Senior Correspondent at Business Insider. And we just heard from Francisco Serrano, who was a graduate of CityBuild and who went from being an educator to joining the construction trade. And we are talking with you, our listeners. Again, you can join us at 866-733-6786. I see you're...

Calls coming in at our social channels at KQED Forum and at the email address forum at kqed.org. Stay with us. I'm Mina Kim.

Support for Forum comes from the University of San Francisco School of Management. Celebrating 100 years of partnership with the Bay Area business community, the USF School of Management connects students to the city's vibrant culture, hands-on internships, and a wealth of career opportunities. Where AI and sustainability are integrated into every facet of business education.

and where students bring innovation, ethics, and entrepreneurial leadership to a planet in need. The University of San Francisco School of Management. Change the world from here. Support for KQED Podcasts comes from Earthjustice. As a national legal nonprofit, Earthjustice has more than 200 full-time lawyers who fight for a healthy environment.

They wield the power of the law to protect people's health, preserve magnificent places and wildlife, and advance clean energy to combat climate change. Earthjustice fights in court because the Earth needs a good lawyer. Learn more about how you can get involved and become a supporter at earthjustice.org.

You're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. We're talking this hour about why more Gen Z high school and college grads are choosing the trades and how they're rethinking what makes a good job. We're talking about it with Ayawena Pena, Director of Workforce Development at San Francisco's Office of Economic and Workforce Development, with Amanda Hoover, Senior Correspondent at Business Insider, and with you, our listeners, Amanda.

Viv writes, I just graduated from UC Berkeley and now I'm working at the San Francisco Animal Medical Center. I chose a hands-on career because I like to see the results of my work in a physical sense as it makes me feel more fulfilled rather than sitting and typing away at a computer. Being a vet tech assistant can be challenging, but I definitely feel stimulated and purposeful. So I'm happy with my choice. Are you a trade worker?

a Gen Z trade worker, the parent of a Gen Z trade worker, a trade worker of another generation. Tell us what advice you would give for going into the trades or if you've chosen it, why you did, or questions you have about how to pursue a career in the trades at 866-733-6786 at the email address forum at kqed.org and on our social channels on Blue Sky Facebook, Instagram, and Threads.

With me now is Lisa Countryman-Kirosk, CEO of Jewish Vocational Services. Lisa, so glad to have you on Forum. Thank you for having me, Mina. So just before the break, we were talking with Ayawena about what she was seeing in her programs. Tell us what JVS does and what you're noticing. Sure. JVS focuses on helping people access

really middle class jobs. So for us, that means we are looking at occupations where there is a high degree of accessibility, meaning there aren't barriers like

four-year degree requirements, but also real pathways to advancement. I think we all know that we are nationally and locally in an affordability crisis. And so, real pathways of advancement are critical. It means that we focus mostly on trades opportunities, as well as opportunities in healthcare, which is another growing sector. And

So much of what has been said by Amanda and Francisco and I want to absolutely resonate with. We see people are looking for stability. A lot of times they're looking for mentorship, which oftentimes they're not going to get in an office job in the way that they would like.

We also see a real desire to build something with your hands or to create something with your hands and really see a product at the end of it or something changed, something improved. And there's also a real desire to care for others. So we see that a lot for folks who go into our health care programs. But really across all of our programs, folks want to do something to help.

So in terms of health care, just really quick, what are some of the roles that you're seeing big demand? So we are seeing very significant and sustained demand for roles like medical assistant. A lot of times people are looking to get their first foot in the door towards nursing. We're also seeing huge need for folks in the dental space, and we've seen a lot of success with those programs.

A great example of this, one of our graduates, Omar, who went through our dental assistant training program a few years ago, ultimately he got wonderful mentorship, continued to advance, and he's actually starting USC Dental School this fall. So I want to lift up that example because it's great, but also because –

And going into these pathways is not a barrier to, in the future, getting a four-year or an advanced degree. So I think we need to think about how these things intersect. Well, we've got caller Antonio from Alameda on the line. Antonio, join us. You're on.

Hi, thanks for having me. So when I was in my early 20s, I was taking community college classes, kind of immediately didn't have a direct drive. I didn't know which direction I wanted to go in. I ended up getting two degrees in liberal arts and anthropology and then decided to go into digital animation.

and somewhere along that line i was i was working at the phlebotomist uh... and and during that process uh... unite my brother who is a elite superintendent uh... for big construction company kept saying hey you know you should come work with me come work with me and when cove it hit i decided you know i didn't want to work in the medical field anymore

and so i got my first job with the construction company as a laborer worked my way up to a labor foreman uh... and then all worked up to an assistant superintendent and at that time my brother and i sat down and we said you know hey we don't have to work for a big company we could do this ourselves so we got our general contractors license started our own company we've been in business for about three years uh... we now have seven employees full-time employees uh... and that i

It's honestly just a wild ride. And I never if you'd have told me this when I was 17, that this is what I would be doing. I wouldn't have believed you. But I am so happy that I did it. And just we haven't looked back and we're just very excited for the future.

Antonio, thanks so much for sharing that. And I love what you're saying about Wild Ride. I'm curious, Lisa, for someone who is, you know, interested, trying to figure out what kind of career they want to pursue or something hands on that they want to try. What do you tell them? How do you help them get a start, I guess?

Yeah, I think it begins with having support. So I would really recommend if people are thinking about the trades or if they're thinking about exploring paths in health care, I would really recommend looking into your community for programs like CityBuild, like some of the workforce training programs that our local nonprofits offer, because in those programs, you're going to get support around navigation.

really considering, is this the right path for you from a skills perspective or from an interest perspective? If you're scared of blood, probably healthcare isn't going to be the right path.

Additionally, there's a lot of holistic support. So not just the actual training that you need, not just those job specific skills, but there will be in those programs a whole host of other supports that might be human communication skills.

It might be emergency cash support, right? As folks are making a transition, there's going to be a lot of bumps that come up along the way. And if you're connected to a strong workforce development training program, you will get support navigating those bumps.

Well, this listener, Iowena, writes, I see city build is only for San Francisco residents. Are there any programs for people who are not residents? Or I guess I would also expand on that. Do you know of similar programs? Do most cities have one in California? That's a great question. That's a great question. So we primarily serve San Francisco residents. I think a conversation that we're having within the workforce development space is just how the pandemic spread globally.

folks across the Bay Area. So while we serve a very small population of folks that are not San Francisco residents, there are larger cities that have modeled their construction training programs to city build. I know that Richmond has one. There's something similar in Oakland. But so yeah, there are similar programs across the Bay, but our city build program primarily serves San Francisco residents.

Do you have any thoughts on this, Lisa, by any chance? Sure. So we work actually across the Bay Area and California, and we have programming as far south as San Diego. And there are a host of opportunities, really, whether they're provided by nonprofits or funded by workforce development boards that folks can tap into.

Well, this is Nurse Sam on Discord writes, in my hometown, the trades are seen as a failure of education. You went into the trades because you weren't good enough to get a, quote, real job. I think we need to dispel that perspective. The trades are absolutely necessary and can lead to a fulfilling, highly paid career. Amanda, some of the people you spoke to talked about this, right? The stigma that still exists for the trades? Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. There's even there. I cited some data in the story that shows that, you know, more high school students are kind of more likely to hear about college opportunities than they are about trade school opportunities. There's just the number of people that have gone to college in the last 50 years has grown so much. So for so many people, this starts now.

at home or with their peers. You know, a lot of parents want their kids to go to college. If all your peers are going to college, you want to go have that college experience, which I think is a really great and wonderful thing to have, but it doesn't necessarily work for everybody. And the young men that I spoke to, one had gone for a year and then left to start his business. The other just never sent his application in. And both were from families where they were being encouraged to go for college.

To go to college, people were kind of looking at them going, why are you doing this? How are you going to turn your lawn mowing side hustle into a full business? And they've both proven all of that so incredibly wrong. This was a better fit for them, they say. They didn't see themselves on a college campus or didn't enjoy being there. And now their peers are still in college, not earning money yet, and they're doing quite well for themselves. So they've really...

been a great example, I think, of showing that there are different paths that are right for different young people to take. Yeah. You wrote an interesting line in your piece where you say getting young people into the trades will still take a mindset shift. How would you describe that mindset, Amanda?

I think it's, you know, what we've been talking about where people were sold on college as the way to access the American dream. And that if you don't go to college, maybe you weren't smart enough to get in or something like that. And that's just like so absolutely not true. Even I'm a millennial. I'm not Gen Z. But I remember at my own high school, they were really pushing college with like a little talk of the trades. And I think that's just like so absolutely not true.

And there were some students who did that, but they were in the very small minority compared to most people going to college. So I think it would be it's a bit of, you know, showing that you're not like left out or you're not doing something strange if you go into the trades instead of going to college. But one of the ways that we're seeing this shake up and change a lot for Gen Z is with social media. There are a lot of people making day in the life videos, you know, showing themselves working as electricians, showing themselves working.

running a business and giving advice about how you can do that too as a young person, because it is pretty complicated. And if you aren't stepping into a family business role when it comes to learning about

you know, payroll, getting the right licenses that you need, all of that. All of that can be very daunting for anybody, let alone someone who's 18 years old trying to start a business. So I think these social media accounts where people are really showing themselves thriving in these careers and able to give that advice is a great way for people who don't know someone in the trades but think it might be right for them to get like an initial taste of

of what working in them might be. Yeah, these coming of, or sorry, day in the life videos are making me think of how they're probably pushing up against or challenging, you know, the countless, and you point this out, coming of age movies that made it seem like college was a necessary step to that process. It's like so much re-engrained. Yeah.

Yeah. And college still, I think for tons of people is the right choice. You know, I think it's just we're not I don't think this is a moment to say college is a scam, even though that's more what some young people are starting to feel. And that makes a lot of sense, given the high school.

high costs of attending, but it's just about realizing that there isn't one path that every young person has to take. Right. Karen actually writes about this. Karen says, I think these career choices are excellent at preparing us for our future of increasing climate-related disasters, etc. These are the skills we're going to need. I have

one concern though the loss of those general education classes the college degree programs force you to take I always hated having to take them but was glad I did afterwards will we suffer as a society if we lose that because those classes generally help us understand each other and the world better in these times of division it helps us to know our collective history arts etc any thoughts I'm going to go to you Iowena on this because I know you stressed to our producer that you're not like anti-college or anti-educational

Yeah, no, I think, you know, Lisa's example earlier highlights for I think these are just like entry moments for folks and to the general education comment. It's almost like these programs kind of serve in that way. It's the hands on learning program.

is very much present, but also we're putting folks in an environment where they're learning in a community-based environment. So like you're still seeing a lot of those both social and educational skills being developed in a young person. And I think the one other thing I wanted to add on that is when you consider like investment and especially in like times like what we're experiencing with the economy,

Folks are looking for purpose-driven opportunity in their careers. And so I think these programs really set them up for accessing that, being able to see that immediate impact. But also, like, the education pathway is always there for them. This is very much so just kind of like their entry point for it. Let me go to caller Essie in San Francisco. Hi, Essie. You're on. Hi.

Good morning. Thank you so much for this conversation. I'm a longtime listener, and this is such an important subject to me. My family are generations of tradesmen in San Francisco.

And although some of us chose to go to college as well, at least part-time, our brother in particular learned all the trades. He started in the carpenter's union and learned pretty much all of them, including electrical and welding. And he grew up seeing our uncles and our elders, you know,

Working for the biggest companies, building high rises and hospitals and stadiums. And our brother won a presidential award. He got to meet Biden. And I just want to...

share how wonderful an opportunity it is for everybody, whether they go to college or not. There are mechanical contractors, people at all levels, salespeople, finance people, and it's a wonderful opportunity for anybody to go into the trade. And I just wanted to say thank you for all of this conversation. Oh, Essie, thank you for telling us about your family.

You know, S.E. is really saying this is such a great thing to be able to get involved in and make your career. When you hear people come to you, Lisa, with concerns about stigma or maybe family expectations that they need to overcome related to going into the trades, what do you tell them?

I would give them the example of Diego. So Diego is one of our graduates. He joined an apprenticeship program that we run that got him into East Bay Mudd. And as a result of that program, he was able to purchase his first home. And he works 20 minutes away from where he works. And he is able to have his parents live with him. And I feel like that is a dream that a lot of people working in offices are not able to fulfill.

And so if you are looking for your children to have opportunities to be homeowners, to be part of a community, to be able to support their families, then this can be a really great path. And there is nothing stopping Diego from going to get a college degree if he should later want to do that. Hi, Elena. Anna Marie has a specific question. Anna Marie writes, if one enrolls in a training program like CityBuild, how long does training take to become a plumber?

I don't know if you know this, versus other trades. And what does pay look like during training? This is a great question. I'm going to answer in two parts. A, I'm going to send you to our website, so oewd.org forward slash workforce.org.

because there's a number of different trades that folks can go into. I don't know the exact. It's not top of mind for me how long the plumbing one is. But I will say like the trades more generally, you know, say, for example, like someone that wants to be a tile layer might spend five to six weeks training on the job versus, you know, a longer like a carpentry where you're looking more like 16 weeks or more.

Listener Heidi writes, I've worked in veterinary medicine for 20 years. Like registered nurses, to be a registered veterinary technician, you need to graduate from a two-year accredited program and pass the state board exam. When I started, I wasn't licensed. I want the next generation to know you can take what's called the California Alternative Route, and with enough on-the-job experience and 300 course hours, you can apply to take that board exam. That's what I did and never looked back.

We're talking with you, our listeners, about why more Gen Z high school and college grads appear to be choosing the trades and in the process rethinking what makes a good career. The growing number of Gen Z opting out of the white-collar grind appears to be growing a lot. Lisa Countryman-Kiros is with us, CEO of Jewish Vocational Services. Ayawena Peña is with us, Director of Workforce Development at San Francisco's Office of Economic and Workforce Development.

Amanda Hoover is with us, senior correspondent for Business Insider. Even though there are some challenges, there are some stigma attached to this, Amanda, it sounds like even vocational schools are seeing an uptick in demand. Is that right?

Yeah, there's a slight uptick in the proportion of students who are going to two-year colleges that focus on vocations. We're still missing some of the bigger data, and I think we'll see that start to maybe shift and change more in the next couple of years to indicate how big of a trend this is. But it's definitely something that we know is on more people's minds. A stat from Amanda's piece is the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center finds that in 2019,

The proportion of students at two-year colleges focusing on vocational studies compared to other associate degrees was 15%. In 2024, it was 20%. More after the break. I'm Mina Kim.

Support for Forum comes from the University of San Francisco School of Management. Celebrating 100 years of partnership with the Bay Area business community, the USF School of Management connects students to the city's vibrant culture, hands-on internships, and a wealth of career opportunities. Where AI and sustainability are integrated into every facet of business education.

and where students bring innovation, ethics, and entrepreneurial leadership to a planet in need. The University of San Francisco School of Management. Change the world from here. Change is always happening. It's part of life. Here at Xfinity, we want to do our part to keep one thing the same. With a five-year price guarantee on our internet.

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You're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. We're talking this hour about how more than half of Gen Z see a well-paying job as possible with only a high school diploma and some skill building, and how more than a third of college grads are turning to blue-collar or skilled trade jobs. These are from very recent surveys. And so we're wondering what is driving the trend, especially among Gen Z. And we're hearing from you who've either been in the trades and have advice on how to do that.

for Gen Z or are a Gen Zer who has made this decision and how it has played out for them. Let me go to Jim in Half Moon Bay. Hi, Jim. Thanks for waiting. You're on.

Yeah, thanks for letting me speak here. I've been running my own business for 45 years now. Went to high school, got out, traveled quite a bit. This was in the 70s. Went to Washington State out of Palo Alto and then decided that, you know, it's time to settle down. So went to the Votek Institute while I worked at a convalescence center on my own and worked

Got my refrigeration credential, and I went to one job doing a refrigeration repair and decided I never want to do that again. And at the time, there was this little company called Starbucks starting out in Seattle. They needed competent repair people. And I had experience in pressurized systems and refrigeration. I just kind of stumbled into a...

need that. I've never looked back. I started out at $100 an hour. Now I'm at $350 an hour. I work about three to five hours a week here. I've established myself back here in California, but got a sub-license as a plumber with a plumbing company. It was basically just you've got to spread it out. Yeah.

my mantra is from crackpot to the jackpot. And, you know, it really has played out. And fortunately, we've had plenty of time. You know, I've got one child. He's almost 50 now. And I managed to pay off his college with what I made. And that was no easy feat, as most of us know. But

I went into coffee, and it's the second highest traded commodity next to oil. The equipment is similar to what every household has, which is dishwashers, washing machines, and

repairing everything, basically taking on whatever I could. Sure, you work seven days a week, but it's your money to make or lose. It makes a huge difference. I'm real happy for you and appreciate that because you're making me think about something that I think is sort of ironic. So Amanda, you know, Jim was able to capitalize on this boom in coffee, right? Starbucks just became a crazy popular thing. And in a funny way, a lot of

A lot of Gen Z who are going into the trades are benefiting from AI, right? Because they're able to use it in their businesses. Right.

Yes, absolutely. One of the young men I spoke to was talking about how helpful it is. And I think on their face, we don't think of trade jobs as tech jobs, but there's really not a delineation anymore, no hard lines between what is tech and what is not. So he spoke to me about using AI to help him come up with marketing materials, to help him respond to client emails, to do research, you know,

It's also hard as a new business person to be thinking about how you should be responding to your customers, you know, coming up with help getting through tricky questions like that. So in a case like that, AI empowers him to be a business owner and to automate a lot of things that would have taken a lot more time in the past. Yeah. And then, of course, even as AI is taking or putting pressure on certain types of jobs and maybe, you know,

on automating certain types of jobs. It's also pushing the demand for people in trades like electricians and so on. I also want to ask you about other things, Amanda, that are making this moment potentially promising for people and why they are calling. I think you even called the trades a potential oasis. One of them is the Infrastructure Act, right? Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. We're going to see, you know, we're likely going to see demand in a lot of these trade jobs go up. We're going to see people retiring out of them as we see wages growing and construction. That's a supply and demand issue. You know, for people that get into these when there's high demand and low supply of workers, there could be really potential pay bumps in these trades that they get to take advantage of.

And it also sounds like there is a big expectation for demand to increase because baby boomers are retiring. So, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, we'll see.

older workers leaving the workforce and I think that there's a bit of a gap here probably for a lot of the reasons that we've been talking about, you know, the stigma around going into these jobs, the push towards college, the number of people or the proportion of people getting college degrees from in the 1970s was something like 11% compared to became closer to 40%. So we had way more people

Let me go to caller April in Hemet. Hi, April, you're on. Hi, April, are you there? Yeah.

Well, we'll see if we can try to connect with April another way. This listener writes, I'm a Gen Xer looking to change careers to one away from a screen. I love working with my hands. When I was 25, I studied fine woodworking, and I also love working with people, but I'm concerned that I won't be able to make the same pay as my white-collar job that pays my Bay Area-sized mortgage. Any advice? So this is interesting. We're always told, and we've always been told, that to be able to get a high-paying job, you need a college degree.

So what would you tell Theo, Lisa? I'm so curious. And Ai Wei and I might also ask you to weigh in on this too.

I would say that it is absolutely possible to transition into the trades. And in addition to the rise of Gen Z interest in the trades, we've also seen quite a number of mid-career and even late-career professionals making this transition with a priority around decent pay, really fantastic benefits and pensions,

as well as kind of a sense of community and a real sense of making an impact. So everyone will have to assess their own finances and their own kind of standard of living, but it is absolutely possible, and we've worked with a whole host of people across the Bay Area who have done that. I mean, I do hear in other interviews and other coverage of this that people say they make six figures.

Absolutely. We have a graduate that I was recently talking with who did one of our other programs under the tech sector. And within a year of graduating from her program and the work experience that she was able to get there is already making six figures. So I think like just touching back on the point of like there's a into this specific writer, there's an opportunity away from the screen as well. We're seeing increases in climate related roles.

in home health care and those work opportunities, in cybersecurity. There's a breadth of newer industries that are emerging in relationship to how this economy is shifting as well. I think we've got April. Hi, April in Hemet. You there? Yes, I'm here. Thank you. Go right ahead. I'm here.

Thanks. I'm a massage therapist, and so I consider that a service trait. I came to it, though, through more of an academic background. I never... I mean, I always...

Going through school, I wasn't sure what I was going to do, but I got a four-year degree and worked for a while and then went to massage therapy school. And for me, it's enabled me to, now that I'm a mom, have a flexibility to

staying home with my kids and still have a career as I have my own business and to have a lot of flexibility that way and still provide some income. And then as my kids are older and you'll be able to work further in that. And as far as the AI goes, it's something that I thought about and, um,

I'm pretty sure that I will have some job security in that regard. I think there's some development on massage robots. I don't see that being too popular too soon, so I'm feeling some comfort that I'll be able to...

continue my trade for a long time. April, thanks. Thanks for sharing that. This is no right. So does this trend apply to Gen Z women as well? Or we see more women enter the trades?

And another listener writes, I have nothing against people going to trade instead of college, but you should warn young women that entering male-dominated occupations means they could experience a lot of harassment. I've been in almost entirely male workplaces my entire working life, and unfortunately things haven't changed much over the decades, especially in construction. So in your city-build classes, for example, Iowina, are you seeing a lot of Gen Z women? We're seeing an increase in women, absolutely. We had an

all women's cohort out of the Mission Rock project with the giants, the 16 women that went through that trade training program. But also this is a conversation that we're having with our union partners and our employer partners as well. I think the level of,

interest that we're seeing from young women is, especially for some of the more detailed trades like carpentry. And I think one of your listeners earlier was talking about woodworking, but that level of fine detail is needed, especially when you're talking about like residential construction. And so there's space for all of them. There's space for everyone. While there may have historically been like this kind of environment that hasn't been as welcoming, there are active conversations that are leading to active engagement.

shifts in how training is, quite frankly, like how it's operated, but also how folks are approaching what site culture looks like out at these construction sites. So I guess we've been talking about how it's a favorable environment for trades, but I'm wondering what you see as potential challenges or headwinds that this could face. And Lisa, I'll go to you first on that.

Sure. I mean, I think one of the biggest headwinds that we're seeing is simply from funding. So a lot of these programs are supported with public dollars, whether those are federal apprenticeship or WIOA dollars, or whether it's state funding or local. And given the, you know, there's multiple dynamics in the environment right now, there are

changes to funding at the federal level that are still in play but could go in a direction that results in reduced federal funding. At the state level, we have seen that the governor has not restored or continued to fund the High Road Training Partnership, which has actually seeded a whole host of fantastic projects across the state that result in outcomes like Diego experienced of being able to be a homeowner. And

There are challenges at the level of the city budget as well. And so I think if we want to support the build out of these opportunities, we have to invest. And I think at the local level, we need to kind of make up for the fact that at the state and federal level, we are investing.

And what we know at JVS is that funding for job training has a really substantial ROI. It results in much greater outcomes in terms of increased employment.

an increased tax base, increased consumer spending. And for our programs alone, we see a 135% increase in earnings from our job seekers with folks earning over $100,000 a year several years post-program. And you have my listeners, you're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. So Iowena then, are your programs like CityBuild, SF Tech, the healthcare program, are they in danger of losing funding?

They're not in danger. Lisa's right in that, you know, the public budget across from the national to local scape is definitely challenged. But I want to point to a federal study that was done recently demonstrated that for every dollar that's invested in these workforce programs, you're seeing a $15 return on that investment.

So if anything, like we're imploring our public agencies, obviously, to to reconsider, like as they're right sizing budgets, like what programs we're seeing that are leading to like these outcomes that we want to achieve, but also like looking to like our philanthropic and private partners to understand like where there are opportunities for them to come and help be a bridge to to fill that gap.

So certainly, you know, challenging times lie ahead, but the investment will continue and maybe just shift to different trades that we're seeing growth in.

President Trump has said that he would like more of an emphasis and attention to vocational schools, to trades. But then last month, the Labor Department sent a letter to a dozen job corps centers across the country saying those needed to shut down. People have raised concerns about the president's tariffs. What have you heard about that? How big a worry should that be?

I mean, I reported this story prior to that happening. So that was not a part of my story or my coverage of this. But I think just very broadly, these jobs have always existed and they're the kind of jobs that we really, really need. You know, we...

We need electricians. We need plumbers. We need people who know how to do this skilled work. So I do imagine that, you know, there's these positions aren't going to be rapidly disappearing. Let me go to caller Beth in Oakland. Hi, Beth. You're on.

Hi. I was a crane operator for 25 years, now retired. It was very tough in the beginning for women in construction, but it's getting better, and what's going to make it better is for more women to come into the trades, and I think we're being welcomed now. And so I think that I'm...

specifically talking about union apprenticeships because that is mentorship. You know, you get paid from day one once you enter an apprenticeship. There's no student loans involved. You are progressing in your pay. And women need support for this. And

And the organization that helped me was Tradeswomen, Inc. in San Francisco. And there are a number of programs that are helping women to get into the trades. And union apprenticeships are the important –

uh, area for women to look at because you have protection, you know, from your union. And, uh, and I just want to, I want to, uh, support women to, uh, you know, to look at this, um, because, uh, men are not the only people who want to work with their hands and a lot of women are interested too. So. Beth, thanks so much. I really appreciate it. Um,

Tony writes, Antonio's experience shows that it's actually easy to begin in construction. Start as a laborer and learn as you go. You can actually progress quickly from carpenter's helper to carpenter, then to crew leader and so forth if you're a fast learner. Stephen writes, I'm all for trade schools and working in trades, as I do myself, and I'm painfully aware of the extraordinary cost of an undergraduate college education these days.

But putting financial concerns aside, my wish is for every high school graduate to have the opportunity to attend a four-year college because the things one can learn there are invaluable in their own right for both the individual and for our society as a whole.

Peter writes, what I see missing in the U.S. is a formal vocational program. European countries like Switzerland and Germany have an apprenticeship program for many trades. Students go one day a week to school and work at a company for three years. Finally, really quick, Chris wants to know, do your guests have any advice on how high school graduates could ensure they're signing up for a quality vocational school? Lisa?

Yes. I think that – so I really prioritize looking at nonprofit resources or union-based resources. And don't be shy about asking those programs what the outcomes are. What are folks earning? What kind of benefits are they getting? What are the other supports that are available? You have to, in any job search, particularly as a young person looking at some of these options, you have to really advocate for yourself.

Lisa, thank you so much for talking with us. Lisa Countryman-Kiros is CEO of Jewish Vocational Services. Ayohena Pena is Director of Workforce Development at SF's Office of Economic and Workforce Development. Thank you as well. And Amanda Hoover, Senior Correspondent for Business Insider, really appreciate having you on.

And my thanks as well to Jesse Fisher and Mark Nieto for producing today's segment. And as always, to our listeners for sharing their questions, their experiences, and their insights. You have been listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim.

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