‘Lost at Sea’ Profiles Sausalito’s ‘Anchor-out’ Community
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From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Leslie McClurg. In today for Mina Kim, coming up on Forum, everyone knows Sausalito for its million-dollar views and waterfront mansions. But just offshore, anchored in Richardson Bay, a whole other world exists. A floating community of artists, outcasts, and unhoused residents lives on abandoned boats, forming a very fragile community.

But the city wants them gone. We'll talk with Joe Clock about his new book, Lost at Sea, where poverty and privilege collide and where people are fighting to hold on to home. Stay with us. That's next, right after this news. This is Forum. I'm Leslie McClurg. I'm in today for Mina Kim. And I've always had a lifelong dream of living on the water. And every time I drive near Sausalito, I kind of romanticize what it would be like to live out there.

And for years, a really eclectic group of people, some artists, some veterans, some folks who were just down on their luck, lived on very weathered sailboats with some of the best views of the bay. And they built a very tight-knit community on the water known as the Anchor Outs.

But the city doesn't want them there. And over time, policies and crackdowns chipped away at their tight-knit community. I'm joined by journalist Joe Klock to talk about what happened. His new book is Lost at Sea. Welcome, Joe. Hi. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Can you paint us a picture of this community? Like, who are these residents and what type of vessels are they living in?

Yeah, well so the community itself had been there for over a century really. I think you might trace the real kind of modern dwelling in the bay in this way to after the earthquake and fire. And for anybody who's familiar, the Houseboat Wars, which was a similar artistic community on Sausalito's coastline in the middle of the 20th century,

You know, that era is when you probably really kick off this modern story of the Ankerhouts that I wrote about.

those houseboats essentially were you know a lot of times as you mentioned they were um you know veterans often um you know people who had gone to hate ashbury and uh kind of moved on from there you also had artists but you also had day laborers it was a really eclectic group of people um and they had a war with you know what might boil down to as

the sort of real estate and moneyed interests of Sausalito that they lost. And when that kind of historic, you know, low-income community, artistic community along the water was dismantled, a lot of them then moved out onto the anchorage. And the anchorage, where traditionally the word anchor-outs applies now, is...

That is a special federal anchorage, which means, you know, theoretically, if you're going back to like Admiralty Law, the sort of laws of the sea historically, the idea is that you have these anchorages where boaters can come in, whether a storm, whether even a season, kind of collect themselves. They just drop anchor, they can stay free of charge, sort of as part of the global infrastructure of, you know, moving around in the water.

And so particularly in the post-World War II years and after the sort of houseboat wars began,

kind of decimated that shoreside community that I mentioned, you had a large population of people in the anchorage, um, that we refer to as the anchor outs that are essentially living, um, you know, with kind of off the grid, I guess you would say. And then, um, that, the number of them, it fluctuates some, but it's, it's around a hundred, particularly in the latter half of the 20th century until you get to, uh,

the Great Recession. And then you have that number balloon up to a height of maybe about 240 to 260 in 2015. And what does their day-to-day look like? I mean, where are they getting basic services? How are they, you know, bathrooms, et cetera? How does life work out there?

Well, it's complicated and it varies sort of based on the circumstance of the person. Because you have, on the one hand, you have, say, retired mariners who, you know, they have maybe a pension or savings. And for them, you know, they go to shore, grocery shop like everybody else. Maybe they shower at a gym or they have some sort of bathing unit in their boat. But then you...

You also have, on the complete other end of the spectrum, you have people who are very impoverished, who might not even have skills as a mariner, but who, in that, they kind of live on these derelict boats that have been abandoned out there. And for them, that access to resources really has kind of fluctuated with the political winds of Sausalito, but...

Um, you know, some of them, they grow their own vegetables on their boats. They, uh, they help each other out. They all have various skills. A lot of them will have, you know, uh, day jobs either doing construction, uh, in or around, uh, Marin or they will, um,

In some cases they'll do housework, things like that. So, you know, the money, I think for a lot of them, the money is sporadic, comes from different places and they kind of pool their resources to get by, historically. But how much assistance they get from the town has varied over the years. And obviously, in the end, was none. And are there families? Are there kids? Are there generations?

There are. So there are certainly, in the time I was there, which began in 2015, I certainly met people who were mothers, who had children that were growing up at least for some time on the Anchorage. And then in addition to that, you also had, there were a few people that I'd met that had been there for...

close to around half a century.

And so, yeah, so the thing I think that's important to keep in mind about them is that they are, this is a community with a legacy. It's filled with traditions. It's filled with its own customs. It even kind of has its own holidays, its own wedding, funeral type of thing. So it has a very multi-generational legacy. Can you tell us about a few of those? That was quite colorful part of the book.

Oh yeah, I love that too. I loved being around it on the chances that I got to do so. One of them is this funeral tradition that the Ankerauts have where there's a small park, Dunphy Park in Sausalito, that has a little bit of beachfront that opens up into Richardson Bay.

And when a longtime member of the community will pass away, one of the things they'll do is they'll make a little replica of their boat and they'll, you know, light it on fire and push it out to sea. And, you know, it's quite a nice way. Yeah, that they all kind of find ways to remember each other and spend time around each other. Yeah. Yeah.

I got the sense that they were very supportive, that the community was, like I wrote in a rant, I said it earlier at the top of the show, you know, quite tight-knit. How did that build over time? Like I said, you know, kind of generations. How did they sort of weave their lives together? Well, so I think...

a lot of it has to do, I think, with the idea that... I guess I should say first that there were certainly different kind of... almost like neighborhoods, you know, like different cliques, different groups out there. And so I don't want to come across like I can speak for everybody out there. But from what I saw, a lot of it was sort of this idea of...

You know, there was almost a code out there of like, even if you don't like somebody, you help somebody if they're in need. And often that helping results in teaching somebody how to do something. So say, you know, their boat gets damaged in a storm, this might be a person who just arrived. You know, some elder might come, and these two people might not actually get along very much, but when it comes to that moment, you help. And...

Maybe more broadly speaking about that, one of the things that's interesting is, so many of the boats, these sort of abandoned, often derelict boats that people would make a home on, they're actually abandoned, presumably, you know, from people who just found it was cheaper to just leave their boat than to pay to have it, you know, wrecked out.

And so, oftentimes, these boats, you know, they would sort of, at least as I understood it, come under the kind of dominion of certain older anchor outs who then, if they

enjoyed somebody new who showed up, they might offer to sell them one of these boats for, say, a dollar. So there is, from the beginning, there's a lot of like, you are entering a community, you are gonna have to find your place in this community, you know, you're going to offer things, people will offer things you don't have. So yeah, so in that way, I think they weave it together.

You know, many articles, many doctors say, you know, community is one of the most important things for our health. It sounds like they were quite tight-knit. Do you think they were happier? Did you get a sense that these folks were really thriving? Some yes and some no. I would say, you know, in some sense it felt to me like an apartment building where I think there were some people who,

were happy as a clam. You know, they'd been there for decades and all they wanted was to be left alone, to kind of pursue their art, live this lifestyle. But then you certainly did have people, and I would say increasingly

You had people who were more in a desperate circumstance where it was this, or as one woman put it to me, you know, it's better than sleeping on the streets in San Francisco, but she didn't want to be there. And so you really did have a pretty diverse mix of people, at least in my experience being there. One listener on Discord writes, what a great lesson in life philosophy. Even if you don't like someone, if they need help, you help them.

We'd love to hear from other listeners. What's your reaction to what you're hearing about the anchor outs? Maybe you're from Sausalito. Maybe you're a resident there. Maybe you've interacted with the anchor outs. We'd love to hear your story or your thoughts about whether or not this community should get to live the way they are living. You can email your comments, your questions to forum at kqed.org. You can find us on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, or any of the Discord threads. We're at kqedforum. Or you can just give us a call right now at 866-

733-6786. Again, that's 866-733-6786. We'd love to hear your thoughts. I'm talking with Joe Block, excuse me, Joe Clock, excuse me about that, senior editor for Harper's Magazine. He is the author of a new book, Lost at Sea, Poverty and Paradise Collide at the Edge of America. We'll be right back with Joe after this break.

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You're listening to Forum. I'm Leslie McClurg. I'm in today for Mina Kim. And we are talking about a floating community of artists, of outcasts, of veterans. They are known as the Anchor Outs, and they're trying to hang on in Sausalito as the city cracks down.

We are joined by Joe Clock. He is a senior editor at Harper's Magazine and just wrote a new book, Lost at Sea, Poverty and Paradise Collide at the Edge of America. Joe will be talking at Book Passage in Corte Madera on April 22nd at 6 p.m. if you want to hear more. We'd love to hear from you. What are your reactions to the anchor outs and their community out there? Give us a call right now at 866-733-6786. Again, that's 866-733-6786.

Noelle writes, as usual, if you are not a homeowner in Marin, you are looked down on. Joe, is this kind of living legal out there in Richardson Bay? Well, that in itself, I think, is a very complicated question. So just to give a bit of the history of that.

So the sort of authority that oversees the Bay is the Richardson Bay Regional Association. And that was created using a joint powers agreement from the surrounding communities of Richardson Bay, which essentially it kind of like merges all their jurisdictions. And then it creates sort of an authority that can enforce certain laws.

certain rules on the water. Like, uh, one of the rules that they, since the 1980s had put in place was limiting the amount of time that you could be anchored there to a few days. Um, I think that there, the reason that that ordinance didn't really start to get enforced until relatively recently, uh, in, in a lot like, uh, widespread aggressive way is because it's a little unclear, uh,

exactly what the legal footing for that is. I think that at this point, it has effectively been enforced. The anchorites have effectively, to a large extent, been evicted. So I would say

You know, it's complex, I think, in terms of testing in court what is legal and what isn't, because the anchor outs have never exactly had the means to do so. So I won't weigh in on that. But I know that it's a it's a complex issue, essentially. Well, let's go to the phones. Brianne in San Rafael, you're on the air.

Hi, thank you. Yeah, it is a complicated issue. I used to be an anchor out myself, and I think that if it was illegal for us to be there, then they would have made us leave a long time ago. But I don't think that they really have the authority to make us leave. And so they did it in all types of, you know, all types of underhanded ways, stealing people's boats when they would go out to the store. And, like, it's really sad because there's some good people out there. I met a lot of really great people.

Brianne, what drove you to live out there? Well, I was living on my boat at a marina in Eielton for about four years, and then the marina shut down. So we left on our boat looking for a new marina, and we made our way all the way from the Delta up here and eventually ended up in Sausalito, where we anchored there for about three years. And it was a wonderful place to live. It was beautiful. I met great people there.

Awesome. Thank you so much for calling in, Brianne. We've got lots of questions here, comments. They're all kind of similar, you know, worries about the sewage pollution in the Bay. So we talked about that briefly. Some had access, some did not. How was the pollution taken care of out there? You know, I think that very much does, again, depend on the person. Are you talking about the human waste, like day-to-day waste? Yeah, we just got like three different questions and comments about the human waste.

Well, I would say that if the implication of those is sort of that people use the bay to go to the restroom at times, I think to some extent there may be some of that. But if you're to compare that to the amount of waste, like runoff waste from the...

like, you know, sewer system in Sausalito. There's no comparison. But that's a perfectly, I guess, valid point that some of that does occur. But I think that, you know, a lot of the people I met were not doing that as well. What about trash and other types of pollution? Were they able to take care of and kind of keep the area clean?

Yeah, I mean, there were boats that people would keep trash on. That's true. But then there were also people who brought their trash to shore and put it in trash cans. You know, I think one thing when a lot of these points get made...

It's like, you know, you could go to a city block in any city and you might see trash on the ground or something even less savory. And the argument would never be, well, we should demolish this block.

Um, and so I think that the, it's just important to keep in mind where it's totally, you know, fair to point out these sort of, I guess, like sanitary shortcomings that come with not being connected to any infrastructure of the city, et cetera. But, um,

I think the question and the thing to really think about comes in when you talk about what is the response to that. Maybe the response could have been, you know, build bathrooms on shore, put up dedicated dumpsters, have a boat. You know, there are many things that you can do besides argue that the community shouldn't exist.

And so while those things are valid, I think it is just important to remember sometimes when you're pointing those things out, I think the response is where you need to think, is this the appropriate response to however valid a particular concern is? Let's go back to the phones. Richard in Berkeley, you're on the air.

Yeah, I just heard the program on and I know people that used to live out there. I lived on my boat in Berkeley Harbor. So yeah, just a big high five to the community spirit. You know, it can be challenging like any like when you get homeless people, you know, you know characters but to what you were speaking about in terms of the trash and whatnot, you know living on a boat probably the most the lowest possible impact and

compared to so many other folks. You know, environmentally, I'd say much less, even, you know, considering looking at it through the darkest lens. Right, right. Thanks for calling in, Richard. Appreciate that.

Josh, you introduced us to some really unforgettable characters with some really unique names. You've got Innate Thought and Jubilee Jeff and Van Bow. Who is your favorite character and why? Oh, I mean, there were so many wonderful people who were kind to me, really, you know, for no reason different ends. I could never, you know, never say no.

one was sort of a favorite or anything. There was, you know, so much kindness to go around and the one thing I would say is

Maybe paint is a picture of one of them, yeah. Well, so innate thought. I mean, he, you know, I refer to him kind of, when I talk about this now, it's like the Virgil of the project. Because he was really the one who introduced me to people. And, you know, I would, you know, I still even occasionally, as of like maybe...

earlier this year, you know, he'll still call me, right? Even though he's actually no longer on the water. And, you know, I think the, you know, he, maybe to give you an idea of him, he, you know, kind of refer to him as sort of like a Anchorage lawyer, you know, like he didn't really have any

formal training, but he would look at the regulations, he would look at past court cases, and he would try to say, "You know, this thing that's happening to us is illegal because of this." And he, you know, would make arguments, he would type them up on his laptop that he had wired to a battery that was, you know, from a solar panel on his roof. He used to, you know, listen to Ave Maria and play Grand Theft Auto at night when

when he had like a full charge. I mean, it was just, just a really wonderful, uh, colorful guy in my experience. And, um, one, the reason I think, uh, I chose Nate here to talk about is one twist, um, that I, I did,

I think it's always good to keep in mind when you're dealing with people who lead a very different lifestyle and maybe communicate in somewhat different ways. When I first met him, he would talk about the...

his legal argument against this or that. And I would think, oh, I can't even tell if this is coherent or anything. But over time, you're getting to know him and you really explain it and he...

At one point, I emailed maritime lawyers and I asked about this particular case that he had been making. And several of them said, I think that's actually a pretty good case. I think he has a point there. And so you have this wonderful diligence and approach and dedication and intelligent approach.

like living in just in general, you know, you're using batteries and solar power. And as that, uh, gentleman Richard said, like, you know, it is a very low waste lifestyle and all these things. And you just get these very resourceful characters and these people, uh,

He just learned how to make a case. And he identified other Supreme Court cases. And then, again, when I asked the maritime lawyer, he was like, "Yeah, that's what I would do. That's good." - Wow. - Yeah. And there were so many people like that. That's just one example. Very ingenious characters.

We're talking about a floating community. These are artists, these are outcasts, some are veterans. They're known as the anchor outs and they're trying to hang on for their lives in Sausalito while the city cracks down. We are joined by Joe Clock. He's a senior editor at Harper's Magazine and just wrote a new book titled Lost at Sea. We'd love to hear from you. What's your reaction to what you're hearing? Maybe you were or are an anchor out. We'd love to hear from you. Maybe you're a Sausalito resident. We'd love to hear your thoughts. You

You can call us at 866-733-6786. Again, that's 866-733-6786. Or you can email your comments, your questions to forum at kqed.org or find us on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, Discord. Again, we're at kqedforum. Let's go to the phones. Josh in Berkeley, you're on the air. Good morning. How are you? Go ahead.

Good. Yeah, I just wanted to share my story about the first time I came to California. It was around 1997, and I drove an old Ford van out from Illinois to visit my best friend, Matt Scott, who was anchored out with his dad, John. And they were living on a little boat, and I had a real good time. Amazing. How long were you out there?

I think we're out there about three months. We were doing odd jobs and we would row out and sleep and, um, you know, row back into shore in the mornings and try to pick up jobs, um, around, around the Harbor and Sausalito. And, um, sometimes it would work. And most of the time we just end up going skateboarding or hanging out with coffee shop. But we, we would, uh,

You know, we would intermingle. I mean, it was a community. Probably a lot different than it is today. I mean, we're talking about 1997, so... Right. We would hang out in the harbor, and some days we'd get a...

get in the van and we'd go get free lunches and, you know, we were just being kids. Yeah, in your early 20s having a good time. It sounds like it was, I mean, God, they're the best views in the Bay.

We've got a listener who writes, is your guest familiar with Shelley Bode, Gate 5, and the Thule Queen? Shelley was a beloved figure in the community, and the Thule Queen was the boat where many of us hung out, took refuge, and enjoyed some very memorable times. No Name Bar was another place of importance to our community. I'd like to hear what your guest knows about these landmarks and these boat folks.

I'm not familiar with Shelley, but with No Name Bar, especially when I first started going in 2015 and 16, a lot of the older residents who had been there a while, and especially who remembered the kind of houseboat era that I had mentioned at the top,

they you know no name bar was um you know it's it's just a long Bridgeway uh it's kind of in downtown area um was like hugely important to them as as like a communal space but also uh a space where the sort of

you know where they interacted with a lot of the community members of sausalito and it was sort of um and i you know i've uh been a bunch of times and uh it yeah it's uh it's a fun play you know a lot of music um that definitely felt like a place that was very open and friendly uh to the anchor outs and you know people um were were kind you know that there's a lot of affection uh

you know, among some individuals for the anchor outs in Sausalito. And I think that that's a place where you really see that affection shine. Well, Denise writes, your guest presents a too romantic view of the anchor out community. Polluting the bay or any ocean water is not okay. I will say from reading your book, it is a fairly positive view. And I'm wondering how that community captured your heart. I mean, I think just, you know, when you're

when you're around people and particularly when, you know, you know people and you see them again as time goes by and it wears on them, uh, you get a chance to really, um, see, see who the actual, uh, people are. You know, you, you learn, you learn their histories, you know, the people they love, you, um, uh, you really come to care about them. And then you, you kind of see like, um, see, see how the situation they're under grinds them away. And there's, um,

I think there is a, you know, resilience that people have to kind of not just get by in the situation that for many of them, you know, it's not an ideal situation. But to not just get by, but to try to really enjoy life. And yeah, I think it's there. There's something that when you really spend time and I think this is probably true for

getting to know just about anybody that, you know, the more you know about them and you see, see that kind of resilience that, you know, that desire for to make a life. It's moving. And especially in such dire circumstances. They also seem like they're having so much fun. There is a lot of humor in your book. Let's catch a call before the break. Matt in Oyster Point, you're on the air.

People who were evicted from Oyster Cove Marina in 22. It's been that long. Kilroy Development built a huge, you know, bunch of labs and everything like this over at Oyster Cove Marina was not. They didn't build anything there. Right. It's still vacant now. But we were the third marina to be closed down within about two

six years that displaced all of us i had a liveaboard there now i don't have a liveaboard i actually live on three different boats uh you're limited by the bcdc bay conservation development commission to three days uh of occupancy occupancy on in any boat and you know any marina so a lot of the people who uh you know were displaced i ended up

up buying two of those boats, putting them in different marinas. And I've got one boat I only live on one day, but it's cheaper than a motel at night in this area. What we would like, and I've got an organization called liveaboardsunited.org, look this up,

What we want to do is pull that designation of, you know, 10% max in any marina away from the BCDC and just leave it to the marinas themselves.

once the environmental concerns are satisfied and allow them then to charge basically about $400 a month for your livable... Matt, I'm so sorry. We're going into a break. I unfortunately have to cut you off, but I sincerely appreciate your call there.

We're talking about a floating community with Joe Clock. He's senior editor for Harper's Magazine. He just wrote a new book, Lost at Sea. And we'd love to hear from you. What's your reaction to what you're hearing? Even Matt's call there. We'd love to hear from you. Maybe you're a Sausalito resident. What do you think? What do you think the government's responsibility to people living in the anchor route community should be? Give us a call. 866-733-6786. Again, that's 866-733-6786. Stay with us.

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You're listening to Forum. I'm Leslie McClurg. I'm in today for Mina Kim, and we are talking about the anchor outs. This is a floating community of a very eclectic sort who are trying to hang on in Sausalito while the city cracks down there. Joe Clock is our guest, senior editor at Harper's Magazine. He just wrote a new book, Lost at Sea, Poverty and Paradise Collide at the Edge of America. Kimberly writes, your story about the tradition of commemorating the death of the boat owners was so touching. I

I knew an anchor out person who was an artist and a musician in the Bay Area for 20 plus years. And like many artists who left the city due to the extreme cost of living and decamped to places like the East Bay and the Bay View, he could no longer even afford to live on the boat. He's a caring, responsible person who keeps his living spaces clean and tidy because he could no longer live on the boat. He now lives on assistance in an SRO in the city as a single residential unit assistant.

He's surrounded by fellow tenants who are in recovery, former prisoners who are unfortunately mentally unstable. His environment now has really affected him negatively, whereas when he was on the boat with the supportive community, he thrived. These personalities shaped by the water have a great ebb and flow to their life philosophies. It's a slice of the simpler times in San Francisco. Let's go to the phones. Scott in Napa Valley, you're on the air. Hi.

Yeah, I used to live in Sausalito at Galilee Harbor. I was a liver board. I wasn't an anchor out, but I knew a lot of the anchor outs. Besides being artists and craftsmen, which many of them were, there was also a lot of tinkers and people that knew how to fix things. And one of the things I wanted to add to the previous caller said about the

Anchor outs don't really contribute to that much trash, I agree, because when you live on a boat, you have very limited space. So you don't have room to bring a lot of junk with you everywhere. You have to be very space conscious, very conscious of what you have and what you put on a boat because it's very limited space. Thanks, Scott. Appreciate that call. Let's stay with the phones. Sky in Sausalito, you're on the air.

Hi, this is Sky. I'm a 20-year resident of Sausalito, or I was a 20-year resident of Sausalito. I have an art studio right on the water.

And I actually think that the anchor outs have brought a depth and a real heart to Sausalito that kind of gets lost in a lot of towns that don't have floating homes. They've kind of embraced the sea in a way that most people are afraid to or not equipped to do. You know, from like futurist thinkers like Stuart Brand, who helped found the Long Owl Foundation to unshaken,

a number of like really incredible people who are like the previous caller said, are craftsmen who invent and create things. It adds a layer of culture that maybe is actually the real heart of Sausalito. Thank you for calling, Sky.

Deborah writes,

Lou writes, why is the city trying to shut the Anchor Out community down? What harm is being done? Joe? Well, I should say to a large extent they have shut it down. It, you know, to the extent that there was this kind of unbroken, you know, century-long community there. I mean, it has been very, very, very dismantled. Yeah.

And in terms of why, you know, I don't know that you could say one motive exactly. I mean, I think that, you know, I think that a lot of it does come down to the moneyed interests. You know, waterfront property is very, very valuable. Those views are valuable. There's also, to be fair...

It's not unthinkable that as the size of the anchorage doubled, you know, there may have been some increase in crimes reported. It's very difficult to actually figure that out. But, you know, again, I think it's also, you know, you would have people talk about, ah, there's more

uh, spent a lot of time hanging out on land in the parks and, you know, along the, along the drags with the shops and everything. And, um,

It's probably a complex array of interests, but I think it's probably fair to say that ultimately it does boil down to the kind of interests and comforts of those with a lot of money, one way or the other feeling that a lot of them would prefer if it wasn't there. And to kind of give you one example of how this kind of manifests in the

in this conflict in recent years is there was a plan that one guy who he was sort of an occasional, you know, anchor out, but also was building a houseboat, had lived in Sausalito for many years long ago. And he had come up with this plan where he was like, well, why don't we

build a mooring field out there, essentially, so there would be kind of like permanent floating anchors in Richardson Bay that people could attach to. And what you would have is a lot of the people in Sausalito did not want this. And

And it's by no means everybody in Sausalito, but a lot of the people did not want this because they were like, "Oh, we don't want the anchor outs to be any more permanent." But then, also a lot of the anchor outs didn't want this. And I think this is really telling. And the reason they didn't want it is they said,

as soon as we go, as in the particular group that's there now, each of those mooring fields will be given to a wealthy person and their boat. It'll be sold and then ultimately will be used in the long run to make money. And so you can see, you know, you can see how...

That kind of almost philosophical clash, but also very real, you know, different financial interests. It swirls around in the root of this conflict in a way where it's hard not to attribute income inequality as the kind of central player here at the bottom. We've got lots of calls, so let's go back to the phones. Tom in Richmond, you're on the air.

I'm Tom, and I do have a liveaboard. I have been living aboard for several months now in Richmond. Previously, I lived aboard in Berkeley on someone else's boat years ago. So I have a little bit of experience with this

And the question that was posed just before the break, there was a caller who called in from Sausalito saying he'd shifted to living on three boats. And that's a creative solution that also has its own problems. And just after that, just before the break, the question was proposed is what responsibility does government have? And it's my perspective that that's the wrong question to be asking.

The question to be asking is what responsibility do we each as citizens have to each other and to the shared environment that is, you know, the world basically. And that that is essentially the answer to the question of what responsibility government has. Because it's my experience that in general, government only steps in to regulate when people are not being responsible in their choices.

So I just wanted to pose the question of what responsibility do we each as citizens have to each other? To make sure that we have a place to live. Thank you, Tom. Appreciate that call. Let's stay with the phones. Jessica in Palo Alto, you're on the air.

Oh, yeah, I love that point. I think you're right. You know, and I think I feel like all of the, just my kids and I are really good friends with the entire hospital community. We spent many years in Sausalito. I have two younger sons. They're 14 and 16.

now and they took such good care of us. They would take us out sailing. We considered buying a boat at one point in time and didn't quite but you know I do think they add such a great depth to the community and they do take care of all of their boats you know and they are such great hosts you know to the entire town. Thank you for calling Jessica. Let's take another call. Let's just stay with the phones. Julie in Ukiah. You're on the air.

Hi. This program would not be complete without a mention of some history. I came to the houseboats in 69 or 70 on a hippie bus that we'd come across the country in, and we were greeted by two characters who are now deceased but are infamous, Captain Garbage and Captain Dredge.

And I'll never forget one time Captain Garbage said to me, "You know, I may be too old to cut the mustard, but I can still lick the jar." And I always thought that that was absolutely hilarious. It was exemplary of the wild times that went on there. And I hope people learn something about the history of the houseboat. Shel Silverstein, Alan Watts, the Charles Van Damme, it was high times.

Sounds like a lot of fun. Thank you, Julie. Laura on Discord writes, I've never heard of this community, but I already like them. They sound like the umami of Sausalito. Let's go to David in San Francisco. You're on the air.

I do not agree with this. It's so romanticized, this premise, that we just accept it. I'll tell you why. Because I'm almost 50-some years old. I was a student at UC Berkeley and I'm a student senate. We spent so many years trying to get more housing over at People's Park.

And it's like, oh, no, we have folks that live there. They just want to do this. And we don't really agree with regulations and such. And so finally the courts have agreed to allow for student housing, which would be almost 1,000 units. And so I liken that to this living arrangement that there's a reason why we have environmental regulations. There's a reason why you follow the rule. And to simply say, well, I don't really agree with it. I want to do this because I just want to live.

That's not acceptable. I just find the tone that this is all positive. There's no nexus for me. There's no connectivity. Thank you. We've got to have a full conversation. Thank you, David. Joe, how do you respond? Well, the one thing I would just add to this, I don't mean to say that nobody has...

uh, that there are no issues. Uh, I think the point again that I want to drive home is, um, that, uh, it, the question is the response, right? When you have a community, there are certain issues to address and you decide, okay, we're going to demolish that community. That, uh,

I think there's something really wrong with that. And we don't say that when we talk about a neighborhood. We don't say that when we talk about a building. So there's that to keep in mind. But more to the point, one thing that I think, when you look at a lot of the enforcement that's gone from the latter half of the 20th century with the houseboat wars all the way to the anchor outs today in the 21st century, a lot of it is...

rooted in these ideas of, say, Bayville, right? And it's this idea that these houseboats, they are essentially...

you know, they're essentially trash that's filling the bay. And a lot of the sort of legal architecture that justifies removing them is ultimately rooted in the BCDC's mandate to get rid of basils. So keeping in mind that the BCDC, that its mandate is sort of at the root of this. It's important to know if we're talking about, you know, applying the law and what is and isn't the law, then we in fact have to acknowledge that

when sometime in maybe, I don't know, 15 or so years ago, after this sort of BCD environmental framework was being used to crush boats, to ticket boats, after that started occurring, one of the people who, let's say,

40, 35 years earlier, actually drafted the legislation that created the BCDC. They were asked about, what do you make of this being used to evict anchor outs? And he said there was no intent for any of these rules to be done.

to be used to do that. And he could not remember a single person surrounding this law who even brought up the idea of it being used for anything but what is on the shoreline. So it's very important when we're like,

Having this discussion about applying the laws, that we actually say that about the local governments as well and these municipalities, is are they applying a law that is actually meant for this purpose? Or is the abuse there? And that is a big part of the anchor-out's grievance.

Just to let people know, BCDC stands for Bay Conservation and Development Commission. You're listening to Forum. I'm Leslie McClurg. I'm in today for Mina Kim. We're talking about the anchor outs. This is the community of folks who are making a life out in Richardson Bay in Sausalito. We are joined by Joe Clock. He's a senior editor at Harper's Magazine. His new book is Lost at Sea, Poverty and Paradise Collide at the Edge of America. Let's go to the phones. Rebecca in Vallejo, you're on the air.

Hi. So my name is Rebecca. I'm a marine biologist, and I've worked for about 15 years in environmental conservation, including the last 10 years specifically, almost 10 years specifically in Richardson Bay off of Sausalito on this issue. And I think really one of the things that's missing from this conversation is a true discussion of the environmental impact that this community has.

And a low carbon footprint doesn't mean there isn't a significant environmental impact. There are other ways to harm the environment. In the case here, the impacts are mostly to a plant called eelgrass, which is an underwater plant that forms the basis of the whole ecosystem in San Francisco Bay. It's habitat for birds and fish and harbor seals. And when people anchor in the eelgrass, which they do here, it acts like a lawnmower. It cuts out all of the eelgrass beneath them.

And it's similar to if people went up into Muir Woods and started cutting down redwood trees so that they could have a community of people living in RVs. People would be up in arms. We can't see that, though, because even though that's basically what's happening here, it's happening under the water.

I've seen, Rebecca, I've seen an aerial photo of these areas where an anchor sort of takes out all the seagrass and it looks like, you know, a dead scape in the ocean. It was quite hard to look at.

Jan writes,

Joe, comment there. We're coming up against the end of the hour, but the other pollution that is happening because of these folks? Well, you know, again, I don't think the point of any of the argument has been that there are no negative effects. I just would, again, have to stress that to me, when I hear that, I don't say, okay, well then, evict them and crush their home, and then they will have nowhere to go. And that's essentially, you know,

you know, the situation that, that, that, that to me, um, does not feel like the right response. And, um, there, there are also a lot of things, you know, someone points this out at one of the, uh,

city council meetings in the book, you know, a lot of people who have a second home in Hawaii who fly there on a private jet. Like, there are a lot of these things where we want to mitigate environmental impacts. There should be another solution where we do save eelgrass, but I don't think that we can say, or I don't think that we should say that because there's damage to eelgrass, effectively rendering all these people completely unhoused

is the right solution to that. And I don't think we apply that standard with that level of precision and directness when we're talking about, you know, communities of homeowners. And so I think that's just important to keep in mind. But I'm not in any way trying to refute that there are, you know, environmental and other negative impacts.

Like there are right outside my window here in San Francisco. Todd writes, I have been living on a houseboat since 1980. I had many anchor out friends. Henry was a fixture. He had two anchor outs. He lived on one and stored garbage on the other. The Coast Guard took his garbage boat away and crushed it. Henry was a friendly Sausalito fixture. When on land, he would pontificate at the Taste of Rome restaurant, Ale Extra Rome.

was another character. He lived on an old ferry boat and played concertina and had some great psychedelic parties on his boat. They were a colorful, creative, and friendly group. Marsha writes,

Mixed reviews on all sides. This has been a great conversation. Joe Klock, senior editor at Harper's Magazine. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. He's the author of Lost at Sea, Poverty and Paradise Collide at the Edge of America. And he will be at Book Passage in Corte Madera on April 22nd at 6 p.m. Thank you to all of our listeners for a really balanced and fascinating conversation. Have a great day.

Funds for the production of Forum are provided by the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, the Generosity Foundation, and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

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