Oh The Places You'll Go: Travel in 2025
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From KQED. From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Alexis Madrigal. After the strange years of the peak pandemic, travel has come roaring back. By various metrics, more people are traveling than ever before.

But travel is not quite the same. More people are balancing the climate impacts of travel against the opportunities for enlarging their sense of the world. Instagram contagion sends hordes of tourists to some places while others remain relatively untouched by travelers. We'll check in with three travel experts and get your ideas for places you'd love to go near and far. It's all coming up next after this news.

Welcome to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal with the end of the holidays and our first show back in 2025. We figured you might be turning your eye towards the upcoming year and the upcoming year of travel.

Of course, travel can be expensive. It's going to cost you time or money or both. And we'll try to highlight some of the ways that you can get in a transformative trip without needing to sell your car or take all of your PTO. We're joined this morning by Amy Vership, travel editor with The New York Times. Welcome, Amy. Thanks for having me, Alexis. Billy Cohen also joins us, executive editor of Afar magazine. Welcome, Billy. Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

And we've got Faith Adiele, who is an Oakland-based travel writer and founder of the Traveling While BIPOC Writing Workshop for writers for Black, Indigenous, People of Color. Her recent work is featured in Go Girl 2, the Black woman's book of travel and adventure. Welcome. Thank you. It's terrific to be here.

Let's start a little bit here, Billie, with highlights from last year's travel, just to get people warmed up and excited. You know, you're obviously a well-traveled person, executive editor of a travel magazine, but last year, you discovered a gem in northern Minnesota. Talk to us about it. Yeah. Yeah.

Sometimes the most transformative and unexpected travel happens pretty close to home. I also went to Kenya, Argentina, Norway, far-flung places. But this fall, I ended up in northern Minnesota on the north shore of Lake Superior in a little town called Lutzen. And it was just amazing.

You're on the shore of this huge lake that looks like the ocean, which I had never seen. There's amazing hiking. There's all kinds of water activities. We were there in the fall. So you can imagine the trees and the landscape. The fall colors were just stunning. And it's well known for people in the region, but outside of that, not as popular. So it was just a real treat to get to see a place that I hadn't been to before. Yeah.

I just looked it up and I just had to zoom out on Google Maps probably like 12 times before I could recognize a single landmark. That's pretty that's pretty far up there. I mean, it's basically right at the Canadian border. Yeah. Yes. Yes, it is. So I had to fly in to first go to Minneapolis, then fly to Duluth and then drive about two hours. But the cool thing is that the drive from Duluth is this very scenic highway, you know, right along the coast of the water. So the whole experience of getting there is part of the fun.

Also, it's a good point. I mean, even if you're traveling domestically or not going that far away, sometimes the amount of time it takes to get to a little place like that makes it feel like the trip is bigger than maybe it is in dollars or miles.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because then also you look for fun things to do along the way. Ryan found this wonderful little restaurant right on the water. You stop in small towns. It feels like an exploration. Now, I say that as an outsider because anyone who lives in Minnesota already knows how beautiful that place is and is laughing at me for being the outsider New Yorker who's just discovering it. But, yeah, that is part of the fun of being in a new place every year.

Every new bit of scenery, every new mile that you that you pass is some chance to have some cool experience. Billy Cohen, how about you? Did you have any transformational trips last year? Wait, you're asking? Oh, sorry, Billy. Oh, my gosh. Amy Vershap. My apologies. Yeah.

No problem. Yes. And actually, mine was also not that far away. I was one of the many, many, many people who traveled to go to the path of totality for the solar eclipse. Where did you pick? What was your spot? I went up to Vermont. I went to Stowe, Vermont.

and watched it from up there. We rented a house for the weekend and went up and it was amazing. It was really, really one of, it was an incredible experience. It was a reminder, you know, from the universe how small we are and how it's out there doing its thing and it's going to do it no matter what we do. So it was really a wonderful, wonderful experience.

Do you think that changed how you're going to travel going forward? Like, were you previously like a celestial adventurer, like going to the Northern Lights or trying to see other kinds of things like that? I have been. It was kind of in my sweet spot as a traveler. I have done a Northern Lights trip. I

I'm also a big Vermont fan. I'm a skier. So it all kind of fit together for me. But I, you know, I will definitely do more of that. And I do think, you know, that is an area of travel that people have really, has really taken off. Aurora, definitely. But stargazing, you know, that's an enormous thing right now. People really want to go out and go to like dark sky areas and that kind of thing. You know, and like it even got people off their phones. One of my favorite stats was that like,

internet usage dropped for the time of the total eclipse in that band, like by 40 to 60 percent during the eclipse. So people actually looked up from their phone and look at the sky, which I think is one of the greatest things I've ever heard. And how about you, Faith? Where would you where would you want to tell people about in your travels last year?

Well, last year was a pretty big travel year for me. I was in eight countries in two months, which it was difficult for me to even keep track of them. But I think I began and ended the year in Morocco in two different trips. And I think that...

that was really the most transformative because it's also one of these places that's very popular on one on one level like you talked about kind of this social media madness but i ended up having really a different experience i was traveling with a dj who's a slow travel dj which means she doesn't fly

and only goes by train or sea. And so that was interesting. And then I have tips. There are ways that I always interact. So one, I try to find a place to get my hair done. Where can I get black hair done? So I've got to slow down and find a salon. And then I usually meet people that way. I was living in the Medina in Fez.

I was hanging out in Isawara, which has, you know, beautiful kind of traditional Genoa music tradition. I ended up teaching travel writing to young youth around the country and then asking them where we should go. And so it just ended up having a really kind of deep, very...

Very cultural, really kind of impactful experience for me, looking at all the different cultures, the Amazigh, the traditional pre-Arab folks, and then Africans were coming through and it ended up being so rich. That's interesting. I mean, had you had an experience like that? I mean, in your background, you have some fairly wild travel experiences and life experiences. Where would you sort of place the Morocco trip among them?

I would say it's, most recently I'd say it was one of the ones that was the deepest and really kind of transformed it. Because I'm working on a travel book and I thought, you know, I just really don't know much about the Muslim world. And I'm really fascinated. I mean, Morocco is so important. If you think about Ibn Battuta as one of the, you know, first travel writers, he's really significant. And then you see all these kind of interest in Marrakesh right now. So I thought, I can't really write this book until I go and see what Morocco means to the world.

to the Arab world, to Africa as a place that people are passing through too. So it's really interesting seeing it as a site for Africans who are trying to get to Europe, but then you see all these leisure travelers coming there. And I really like places that are complicated and kind of really make me think about how we travel and what the impact travel has on our world.

We're talking about where we traveled last year, where to go in the year ahead. We're joined by Faith Adiele, who is an Oakland-based travel writer, founder of the Traveling While BIPOC Writing Workshop. Also joined by Amy Vershoff, travel editor with The New York Times and the executive editor of Afar magazine, Billy Kudrow.

Of course, we want to hear from you. What's on your 2025 travel list? Could be close by, could be far away, or you can tell us about a transformational trip that you took last year. You can try, of course, the email address forum at kqed.org if you want to compose that, or you can give us a call, which the number is 866-733-6786. That's 866-733-6786.

Blue Sky, Instagram, Discord, we're KQED Forum on all of those things.

Billy, one of the things about returning to travel is I had kind of forgotten about some of the hassles. Particularly if you were traveling during the pandemic, things weren't quite as busy in a lot of ways. And now you're kind of back in regular old travel through long lines, lost luggage, all the impediments.

What do you say to yourself when you encounter one of the sort of travel-related hassles of regular travel? I won't repeat some of the things that I say to myself. But mostly, this happens all the time. I traveled a lot this fall. I'm sure Faith and Amy can attest to the same thing. Pretty much all of my flights were delayed at some point. Yes, I mean, stunning. Yeah. So, I don't know. I just...

I just breathe in it. You can't do anything about it. You know, like it is, it's good practice for patients and for being in the moment and recognizing what you can and cannot fix and like not letting it get to you. So that's what I always work on is just not letting it get to me. If the flight is delayed, certainly I can go, you know, try and make sure I'm on the best option. And, you know, there's lots of stuff written about how to do that. But yeah,

But otherwise, I have a good book, you know, or a good podcast. And I just roll with it. And it was interesting. So I just, I flew through Amsterdam several times in October, November, and December. And each time it was delayed. And I sort of, I don't know, it was a muscle that was well exercised for me, right? Like I was very used to that by that point. And I could see everybody else around me getting super stressed and full of anxiety. And I kind of was just like,

I think the more you, the more it happens, this is not what everybody wants to hear, I'm sure, but the more it happens, the better you get at it, you know, because you just learn to roll with it. And that is in airports, that's in anything that can happen in travel. And of course, when we write about travel, we don't often talk about that kind of stuff, right? You lose your luggage or you...

I don't know, you forget to pack socks or, you know, for me, I'm a vegetarian and I have food restrictions. So sometimes finding places to eat can be very stressful and that's not so glamorous sounding. You don't even get the airport turkey wrap, you know, that's the sure sign something has gone wrong in my life when I'm like, yep, an airport turkey wrap. Things are not going well. Right.

We are talking about where we traveled last year, how we did it, what we could do in the upcoming year. Joined by Billy Cohen, executive editor with AFAR Magazine, Amy Burschup, travel editor with The New York Times, and Faith Adiele, an Oakland-based travel writer. Her recent work is featured in "Go Girl 2: The Black Woman's Book of Travel and Adventure." We're going to get to your calls and your comments after the break about a transformational trip you took in the last year, or maybe a local destination you think is worth a visit.

866-733-6786. Forum at kqed.org. Stay tuned. Support for Forum comes from Broadway SF and Some Like It Hot, a new musical direct from Broadway from Tony Award-winning director Casey Nicholaw.

Set in Chicago during Prohibition, Some Like It Hot tells the story of two musicians forced to flee the Windy City after witnessing a mob hit. Featuring Tony-winning choreography and an electrifying score, Some Like It Hot plays the Orpheum Theatre for three weeks only, January 7th through 26th.

Tickets on sale now at broadwaysf.com. Support for Forum comes from Earthjustice. As a national legal nonprofit, Earthjustice has more than 200 full-time lawyers who fight for a healthy environment. From wielding the power of the law to protect people's health, preserving magnificent places and wildlife, and advancing clean energy to combat climate change, Earthjustice fights in court because the Earth needs a good lawyer.

Learn more about how you can get involved and become a supporter at earthjustice.org.

Welcome back to Forum. We're talking about travel, upcoming travel this year, where we went in the last year, what we're trying to get out of it. Joined by Faith Adela, Oakland-based travel writer, The New York Times' Amy Burschup, and Afar Magazine's Billy Cohen. Amy, I know The Times puts out a list every year, which is not out yet, of places. 52? Is that how many it is? 52 places? That's what we do, yeah. Yes. Okay.

But how about for you personally? Is there a place that you have in mind that you would like to visit? In the coming year? Yes.

Looking at I have not really gone to Southeast Asia a lot and so I am looking actually at Southeast Asia and I will tell you that done, you know I'm not alone in having Thailand on my list the white lotus effect is Expected to be a big one. I certainly had a lot of impact on Sicily and so that's a country I'm looking at Yeah, what is the what is the white lotus effect? I?

Ah, so the HBO series, The White Lotus, which the first season was in Hawaii. The second season was in Sicily. And now the third season is set in Thailand. And it really spurs travel to those places. The hotels that are featured, you know, immediately book up.

And it's part of this larger trend of what people call set jetting, which is going to places that are featured in people's favorite television shows. Faith, how about you? What do you have on the list? I'm writing on set jetting. I'm so excited. This new term, that's amazing. Yeah.

Well, this one is really surprising to me because I'm not, you know, I'm an indoor cat. I'm not a nature girl. So I'm always shocked when people try to get me to go to nature places. But two people I really trust...

are saying that Mongolia is like the new jam. God is where it goes. And I got that both from Fly Brother, who has Ernest White II, who has a PBS television show called Fly Brother, and then Nigerian photographer Lola Akinmade. And they say Mongolia is, you know, hands down...

stylish people big um like techno music scene mountain culture you can stay in a yurt people really want to talk to foreigners and so i'm thinking about it wow wow that's interesting i uh i have not been to mongolia um but i you know that area of the world though does seem um

just so interesting, you know, like landscapes that we are not familiar with, you know, it's not near an ocean, you know, um, that sounds totally fascinating. Um, how, how about you, Billy? I, I, well, I was just thinking that I was in Mongolia and Amy mentioned that. And you're like big to differ. It was terrible. That was it. It's, it's amazing. It's all the things that Faith said. It just, it's,

gorgeous and stunning and, and such. And like she said, the people I met were just so willing to, to talk and, and I just learned so much about the culture and hiked in great places. And Ulaanbaatar is a really cool, interesting city with,

I keep making it about food, but weirdly a vegan scene where you can get like vegan versions of Mongolian food, which surprised me. I ate really well there. Um, yeah, I loved it. But on my list this year, um, uh, is, um,

An island in New Zealand called Aotea, the Great Barrier Reef Island. It's on, so our list for, if our list for where to go in 2025 already came out and our focus this year was on less touristed places, as you said, over tourism and overcrowding and our effect on the places we visit is on top of people's minds. So we were really looking at

places that were maybe off of people's radar, but that were welcoming and could handle visitors. So that was one place that we focused on. Our reporter had gone. It's a small island, 56 miles long.

northeast of Auckland. And it's really green. So everyone lives off the grid. So like all the restaurants and bakeries and coffee shops and whatnot are all off the grid. And it's also a dark sky, a dark sky reserve. So a dark sky sanctuary, excuse me. So yeah, so you can, it's a great place. Amy, you should go there. It's great for celestial viewing because we've got the, you know, the solar maximum happening. So yeah,

I really want to go there and

And not just see the lights, but learn about the culture, meet with some Aotea natives who are running tour companies and experiences there. So you can really have not just a natural experience, but a cultural one as well. I'll say, Amy, that one of my dreams actually combines your two experiences. I have wanted to see an eclipse from a small Pacific island. Like I read a story about it. I mean, I'm talking...

now 17, we're in 2025, 18 years ago I read a story about somebody doing it and I was like, that would be the most incredible, because apparently the sky is amazing and also just the whole scene of people who make the effort to travel to the South Pacific to see an eclipse for eight minutes is amazing, apparently.

Yeah, I don't know when the next one that will have a totality in the South Pacific will be. But you know, 2026, there's going to be totality in Luxor, Egypt, which I think would be pretty amazing if you want to combine scenery, history, aura, and the universe. Yes.

So that's one of my dreams. And Scott in San Jose has actually lived out one of my dreams. Scott, tell me about trekking in Japan.

All right, thank you. Good morning. There is an island called Shikoku, where there is a famous pilgrimage that's 88 Buddhist temples. That's a unique experience to travel in a smaller, less touristed Japanese island. It's a

It's not probably somebody's first independent travel, but for someone who might have done the Camino Santiago and is adventurous and knows how to use Google Translate, I highly recommend that.

Wait, so tell me, like, how many miles did you go? Were you like, because I've heard, I have some friends who've done different trekking things in Japan. And it seems like there is, there are levels to it. There's sort of like, your bags get sent ahead. And there's like kind of a spa every eight miles. And like, it's fine. And then there's much more intense experiences. Like, were you, what was this one like?

Well, it's possible to do it intensely. However, using the sort of hub-and-spoke method where you stay in one of the cities in Shikoku and go out by bus or train or taxi and then connect three or four temples during the day and come back to where you're staying is much more doable, maybe eight or ten miles a day. And I would also point out that Japan is far cheaper than you might think.

Man, Scott, that is really, that's truly one of my dreams in life to do one of those tracks. And thank you so much for sharing that with us. Actually, you know what?

Let's get a comment in here. This is a really interesting one. A little callback for our listeners. Carrie writes, my favorite trip last year was following Keetka, our Bay Area treasure, who you have heard on the show, if you're a listener to the show, around Caucasus, Georgia, to their two festivals. I spent a month exploring the rest of the country and still need to go back there.

To see it all the young people of Georgia need our support the country has something for everyone the trip's big but worth it And I will say this is this area of the world you know Armenia, Azerbaijan The sort of eastern part of Turkey, Georgia. This has gotten like very very interesting to me Faith have you spent any any part of your time in that part of the world?

I've been to Turkey a couple of times, and I absolutely adore it. It's so fascinating. I took my mother there for her 75th birthday, and my husband was so jealous I had to take him back for our fifth anniversary. Yeah, it's just at the crossroads. Again, I love places that are so complex. And I've been dying to go to Georgia because I'm obsessed with Georgian food and have been for years.

The microclimates there just allow for so many different types of cuisine. So, yeah, I would definitely love to go back and spend more time in that area. And Turkey itself is just so huge. How about do you have any I mean, you were people probably don't know this, but you were a Buddhist nun. I mean, do you have any ways of thinking about these kind of pilgrimages that people have? I feel like I've heard more about it over time. Obviously, pilgrimages go back as far as humanity, but in the way we're talking about here.

Yeah, I loved hearing about the one that the caller talked about because, you know, as a Buddhist who did do some pilgrimaging around Thailand when I was done, I went from northern Thailand all the way down to southern Thailand and then over to Singapore and Indonesia. And then I've done the Camino. I did that right before the pandemic. And those are such great ways to, you know, as you said, pilgrimage is such a traditional way of doing

of travel, but it's such a great way to get to know a country. And you have kind of multiple journeys that are going on because you have that interior journey of the reason you decided to go on a pilgrimage. So what you're learning about yourself, and then you're moving slowly through the landscape, which gives you that opportunity for that deep, slow travel. And then you connect with pilgrims along the way. And so you have these kind of wonderful temporary relationships where you're walking with someone for, you

you know, a point and kind of sharing your story of why you're on the pilgrimage or you're staying in these hostels. And it's such a kind of unique way of really slowing down, integrating the external and the internal. Because flying, you know, you can get someplace so quickly. Sometimes your insides haven't made the shift. That's right. Yeah. Jet lag is spiritual as much as physical, you know. Right. Yeah.

Nowadays. It does seem to be that way. Let's bring in Arun in Palo Alto. Welcome.

Hey, Arun, are you there? Oh, yes, yes, sorry, yes, Arun from Palo Alto. Yeah, so I went to Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan in September, and it's always funny because in the U.S., very few people end up going there. There's a lot of Europeans. But I just found it so fascinating because just the convergence of food, history, culture,

you know, culture, different ethnicities, all make for a very interesting place. So, if you want to see anything about the history of the Silk Road, you know, and how all those people went through, you should visit Uzbekistan. How did you decide? How did you decide to go there? Well, I, I,

I have a long list of items on my bucket list. And Uzbekistan, Central Asia was always, you know, up there. And so when the chance came, you know, I decided that, you know, we should visit Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. If I had more time, I would have liked to visit, you know, Kazakhstan as well.

But I think for first-timers, Uzbekistan is kind of a really good place where you have excellent infrastructure, good hotels, good roads. And it's a good place to get a feel for what the Silk Road and the whole history was that kind of joined Europe to China. And so it's definitely high up on my list for 2024, one of the places I visited.

Arun, that's great. Real quick, before we let you go, do you have something like this planned for 2025, or was that kind of the big trip for a while? No, so 2025, I think somebody already mentioned the Caucasus. And so for the same reason, Georgia, history of wine, and so definitely, and of course the food. And once you're there, then definitely check out the old Christian monasteries in Armenia.

because I heard the hiking there, you know, combined with the history, that makes for an awesome experience. So Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia, that's, I think, now next on my list. Oh, man, Arun, maybe I'll see you there. Thanks so much for calling. You know, Amy, isn't it strange as a travel editor to find yourself...

hearing, you know, I mean, we're now talking three people listening to the show, including myself at least, who are all kind of interested in this area roughly around Georgia. Like, what do you make of that when just suddenly it seems like the attention of people in the United States is like turning to a particular part of the world? I'm

- I'm actually not surprised by that at all because that area has become increasingly popular. And I think it's so rich in terms of history and landscape and the food and the wine. I mean, everything that Arun said. And I think it's for people who wanna go get to someplace not everyone is going. So you do have all the Instagram people who wanna go and TikTok, like do the same dance and get their picture taken.

at the place. And then there are people who want to go and explore somewhere new. And I think for, uh, for the somewhere new crowd, that part of the world is becoming very popular. Another place that's becoming popular, um, is Albania, uh, which has a beautiful coastline. And, uh, and that's kind of for the people who, you know, there was a time when,

You know, Croatia was not really on travelers lists like you would go to Italy, not Croatia. And then people moved into Croatia. And I think now people are moving into Albania because it's less discovered and less crowded. You know, Billy, one of the places that I noted on your list was Belgrade. And I thought like, oh, that's I mean, tell me tell me a little bit about that. So Belgrade. Yeah. Are are destination.

Our deputy editor, Tim Chester, went and just fell in love with it. He found such a cool scene happening there. Really great nightlife, cool music, bars that are floating on the water that are kind of blasting music and everyone's kind of dancing and singing along, as well as really great restaurants. And he even said that some of the restaurants he found, he felt that they rivaled places in Paris or New York.

The city has its first Michelin guide, so they're really starting to pay attention or travelers are really starting to pay attention to food. Plus, there is there's a mix of history, right? There's different eras of history and you can see that in the architecture. You can see that in the culture. So being in a place where there are layers like that is just really, really fun and interesting.

I think speaks to some of the experiences that the people have been calling in have been talking about, right? That kind of connection that you can make a plate with a place. So yeah, I think that's definitely somewhere that it's on our where to go in 2025 list. It sounds amazing. It sounds like a lot of fun as someone who's a nerd for history. I also love that aspect of it. So yeah,

I think we also mentioned Albania. I think, Amy, you mentioned Albania. The best trip that I heard of anyone, Frankie Whitman, sometime listener of the show, went to work with her daughter at a pop-up restaurant on the coast of

of Albania for several weeks. And they just worked there, like making food, interacting with kind of local farmers and creating a restaurant. Her daughter is an artist and that was what they did. That was their vacation. And the whole thing just absolutely blew my mind. The idea that you could

both conceptualize and then execute a pop-up restaurant in Albania and make it work. Live to tell the tale. Come back and, you know, write it up. Faith, have you been or have you thought about doing a coastal trip in the upcoming year? Coastal trip? Yeah. I know you're not a nature girl, but, you know...

I'm a beach person. A warm beach. That's what I was saying. A warm beach. That's what I was thinking.

Well, so last year I was at the British Virgin Islands, which was lovely. And I was talking to a friend about the U.S. Virgin Islands because, you know, if you don't have a passport, they're a really great option, you know, for Americans. And they're so different as well. You know, there's the party town. I mean, you know, St. Thomas is the party. St. Croix is for foodies. There's relaxing beaches for, you know, in St. John. I myself am not really a kind of an island person like that.

like that. But, you know, I mean, I do love a good beach if it's attached to something else. I'm probably going to be in the south of Italy. And so, you know, checking out coast in that way. Oh, that's great.

That sounds great. We're talking about travel in 2025, where you've been, where you want to go. We're joined by Faith Adiele, who is an Oakland-based travel writer and founder of the Traveling While BIPOC Writing Workshop. Also the author of Meeting Faith, The Forest Journals of a Black Buddhist Nun. Joined by Billy Cohen, executive editor of Afar Magazine and Amy Vershup, travel editor of...

for the New York Times. We're, of course, taking your calls and comments on where you've been, where you want to go in 2025. 866-733-6786. Forum at kqed.org. We're going to talk about some local spots right after the break. Support for Forum comes from Broadway SF and Some Like It Hot, a new musical direct from Broadway from Tony Award-winning director Casey Nicholaw.

Set in Chicago during Prohibition, Some Like It Hot tells the story of two musicians forced to flee the Windy City after witnessing a mob hit. Featuring Tony-winning choreography and an electrifying score, Some Like It Hot plays the Orpheum Theatre for three weeks only, January 7th through 26th.

Tickets on sale now at broadwaysf.com. Support for Forum comes from Earthjustice. As a national legal nonprofit, Earthjustice has more than 200 full-time lawyers who fight for a healthy environment. From wielding the power of the law to protect people's health, preserving magnificent places and wildlife, and advancing clean energy to combat climate change, Earthjustice fights in court because the Earth needs a good lawyer.

Learn more about how you can get involved and become a supporter at earthjustice.org. Welcome back to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal. We are talking travel, joined by Billy Cohen from afar, Amy Vership from The New York Times, and Faith Adiele, who's an Oakland-based travel writer.

I want to talk a little bit about some local trips. For years, when we had little tiny babies, it felt impossible to load them up and go to Uzbekistan, as cool as that sounds. So we ended up going a lot around the area. We love Sea Ranch. We love Big Sur. Amanda in Walnut Creek, you have some ideas for us. Welcome.

Yes, absolutely. Thanks for having me. I absolutely love recommending this place. We're talking Santa Cruz. And so this is the Roaring Camp Railroads. And

And it's a fantastic trip from Felton through the Redwoods. Most of the terrain is open air, although most of the cars are covered in the canopy. There are some indoor cars as well. And so it's just an absolutely wonderful, beautiful, majestic trip through the Redwoods. And then they drop you off at the boardwalk, which...

Which, by the way, in the context of history, I'm a history nut as well. The giant dipper roller coaster just celebrated 100 years. I'm not sure a roller coaster that's old is the old thing I want, though. You know what I mean?

Well, it depends. Different folks, different thresholds. Yeah, true, true, true. Yeah. Well, the boardwalk itself is always super well-maintained, and I'm generally really, really impressed with it every year. The staff is also super friendly. But back to the trains. Okay, Roaring Camp is just so wonderful. You know, it's a great trip either for a couple or

romantic or even for a family. And I think it's a really lovely thing to support. They also have one of the last steam trains in

in the country that operates. And what they do is they take you up a mountain. And during this particular trip, the guide really gives a lot of awesome, important history on the Redwoods, how the coastal fog is just so, so critical to the ecosystem of the coast.

And it's just a really informational, super cool trip because as they take you up the mountain, they'll talk about logging, different things like that. And then they'll do a switchback. So they'll stop the train and the conductor will get out and literally switch the tracks on the train. And then the back becomes the front and it's just super cool.

That is awesome. Amanda, I love that. I've never done it. Love the Redwoods. And I especially love...

Train travel. I mean, Billy, do you feel like train travel is special? I kind of do. Like even I was visiting my friend in Fresno, going to do some work at his house, and I took the Amtrak and I felt like somehow it was the most romantic trip of my life. By myself, it was just so gorgeous, like watching California roll by. It was wintertime, you know, outside the windows. I feel like trains are amazing.

I'm 100% with you. I love trains. I love trains. I have a mission to get everyone on our staff this year on a train trip. They're magical for some reason. I don't know if it's being...

close to the ground, you know, and sort of seeing the world go by right at eye level. And the fact that you don't have to be driving or paying attention to it. And there's still that romance, even though Amtrak doesn't always live up to that romance. You know, there's still that feel that it is this kind of retro...

kind of way to see the world and it's coming back because we're seeing several uh luxury trains you know launching and relaunching there's a luxury sleeper train that's coming to um

To England in July of 2025 from Belmond, which is a company that does a lot of luxury trains. One in Italy. I mean, do you think part of that is kind of climate change concerns? I mean, train is a fairly efficient way to travel on like a climate basis.

Definitely. Yeah. And we're seeing a lot of tour operators, for example, and tour companies and certainly certain countries, they're taking that into account. So for tour operators, we're seeing them replace some of their internal domestic flights that might have been on tours with train trips. And then you're also seeing that happen in some European countries at sort of a government level level.

Where they're cutting back on short domestic flights when there's an opportunity to replace that with a train. So it's great to see that happening at different levels, right? At the traveler decision level, at the people who are organizing the travel, and then also at the government level. Because, yeah, we have to fix it. Yeah. Yeah.

you know i mean on the everything that's old is also new again uh amy it feels like hiring a travel agent is also coming back i mean is that just due to the kind of bewildering nature of online travel booking now yeah i think so i mean and i think especially if you're planning like a big trip somewhere that

You know, you're going to a place where you may not speak the language, where it's somewhat difficult to make your reservations and things like that. I'm thinking of places like Japan. I mean, Japan has been an enormous, enormous destination for Americans right now. In part, I think as someone earlier said, it's actually fairly cheap to go to Japan.

But it can be hard to navigate. And I think having someone who can advise you and help you make all those connections that you need to make is really useful. And it's also, you know, having somebody when something goes wrong, which, as we've said before, is pretty frequent these days. It's great to have somebody who could advocate for you and help you navigate.

solve those problems that, you know, can be difficult to solve on the fly. Yeah. Let's bring in another call here. Let's bring in Hobie in Petaluma. Welcome.

Oh, thank you guys so much for taking my call. I really appreciate it. Hey, before I say what I was actually intending to say, I just want to give a shout out to Amanda and the love for trains. So I'm actually totally blind and have been since birth. And when I was finishing up my PhD at Davis in organic chemistry and living in Petaluma, I would actually take the Amtrak train pretty much every day back and forth between Davis and Martinez and then, of course, a bus to Petaluma. But

there's a whole community that forms around trains and there's, I don't know, it's just a, a really wonderful network that, um, that we see, uh, where you just get to know people. And I don't know, it's different than, you know, riding a commuter train like Bart or even, even riding on a plane, which I do a ton of right now for work. It's like, I don't know, there's a, there's a community around trains and people who travel by train that, uh,

is unmatched. So great stuff there. Hey, what I was, what I was just calling to share with you and your listeners is that over the past six years or so, I've gotten to know an area of Italy called Gregoria, which is on the West coast of Italy, the Northwest coast. So Italy shaped like a ball with a,

with a leg and a boot coming down from it. This is the very western portion of the ball, looking down into the Mediterranean, just east of the border of France. And we have a dear, dear friend there who is an olive oil farmer. And we now have a company up in the very north of Italy in Bolzano. But the way we got excited about Italy in the first place was through this incredible olive oil cultivator who's just become a very, very dear friend. Met online, actually, in 2013.

But I'll tell you, there's a type of olive oil called Tadjaska oil. From the Tadjaska olive, I do a ton of sensory work in olive oil and wine, so this really resonated when I first tasted it. But it's these very thin-skinned olives that have this pungently delicious, rich,

antioxidant-rich oil that has such a beautiful mild flavor. And there's only about a 60-mile corridor along the sunshine coast of Liguria that produces this oil from a village called Albanga in the east over to a village called Padja, where the name Padjaska comes from, in the west, right close to the French border. And I

It's just amazing to have a product that comes from this tiny little region. That's like that local. Yeah. Wow. That is... Hobie, that's amazing. Now I have to track down some Tujasca olive oil. And luckily, we know some people in the olive oil world. We're going to try and figure that out. Thank you so much. I mean, what a call, Hobie. What an amazingly interesting set of things. You know, Faith...

There is something to finding things that can't be found other places. Like, you know, I had a friend who had a really great thing happen and I sent her like just a little bit of produce you could only find here, right? Like that you can get almost anything delivered to you, but there are certain things you really only can get in one tiny little place. Are there things you've had in your travels that you really deeply associate with just one place?

Yeah. Yes. So, so much. And I mean, one of my favorite ways to travel is to have a quest, you know, it's like, yeah, I'm this thing. Right. So like lately in local things, I'm like, I want to do like the cheese trail. Cause I, you know, I met someone who had been involved in starting one of the first creameries in, in California. And then I was like, Oh, is there a cheese trail? So like trying to find all the places where that, where that is. And, and,

black farms which are kind of growing up right now trying to see all the places where people are you know creating that so yeah whenever there's one particular thing that is so resident of that place you know i'll go all in and kind of kind of look for it and you know find the best place for it um and you know and then those meals that you remember there's um

There's a way they char lamb's head in central Morocco that I love. And, you know, if you ask for that, then immediately you're going to have it's unusual and you're going to have conversations with people who say, oh, you know this. And so you can sit down and have a whole meal. So, you know, finding that one thing that kind of unlocks that specialty culture can be such a great way to connect in your travels. Such a great point.

You know, let's talk a little bit about, I love the idea of having quests, but there's a lot of different ways to kind of prepare for a trip and kind of try and just make the choice to decide what you're going to do. Sadie writes in to say, I'm gently preparing for a journey to Japan by watching the PBS show called The Wonders of Japan. It highlights different regions such as the sake or textile towns. There's even a town that honors ghosts.

Any advice on how to travel in a more economical way and still have a wonderful time? I would just extend this question a little bit and Billy let's come to you on this and then Amy we can we can get your take to what are the ways that you sort of gently prepare? I love that like where you're not, you know, we're not talking like booking hotels or exact itineraries, but you're trying to kind of absorb something of the place before you get there so you can decide what you want to do.

Yeah, it's a great question. And the watching TV shows, it really does inspire travel, right? Like Amy mentioned the White Lotus effect. There are so many movies and TV shows that are just inspiring people to think about other places in the world. So I think that's a great way to start. Personally, I don't.

I scan through Instagram a lot. Like I'll just put in a location or a hashtag about a place. Uh, cause I'm not just looking for pictures and videos, but I'm looking for the people who are posting from that place. I'm looking for the, the, the, um, like the equivalent of a timeout magazine, right. From those places, right. Who are writing the listings of the cool secret things to do. Um, you know, and where are people posting,

excited about eating or visiting. I remember last year I went to Manchester and started out that way and stumbled on a Instagram feed called Secret Manchester and found so many cool things to do. And I still follow them, even though, you know, I haven't been there for a year. So that's it. And how about you, Amy?

You know, I'll go a little more old fashioned in that I love to read a book, either history or a great novel that's set somewhere because I feel it gives me an understanding of place and of the people and what they're thinking about and what matters to them. So that's one of the things I really love to do is do some reading, not

Not necessarily direct, you know, not like necessarily a guidebook here or magazines or whatever go here, but more kind of getting the essence of a place through my reading. Yeah, like you. Yeah, absolutely. Did you want to take that one, Faith, too? Yeah, and that's great, too. I also read the literature. And then I look for two things to set up for when I'm then there. I always take a cooking class at home.

Like my first night, we just like in Cartagena, we like dropped off our bags and went straight to the cooking class. And we didn't know anything else. But through the cooking, then I knew that like, oh, there's been African influence. There's been Spanish. There's been indigenous. There's been Chinese. There's been Lebanese.

You know, and so I could just start to kind of ask these questions, you know, about all the influences. And it was such a great way to enter and, you know, sitting and eating with people. And then I always look for a kind of a special tour that's led by community groups or local students. So I did a women's history tour in Split, Croatia, and we did a...

you know, a black tour in Cartagena. I just got back from Key West and we did something about the black cemetery there. And so just having local people who are like really passionate about keeping kind of unknown culture alive really gets you an interesting way in and you're walking normally as well. Yeah.

I love that. I'm definitely also a big novel reader too. I feel like it just makes it makes it come alive in a slightly different way Get get this Take take a look this trip a listener rates and say I took a Silk Road tour with Smithsonian journeys to the five stands of Central Asia last year We had an Uzbek guide throughout plus a local guide in each country the Islamic art

architecture, food, deserts and mountains were fascinating. But most interesting was learning about their struggles to create politically and economically stable societies and to navigate complex relationships with China and Russia after sudden independence in 1991. Each has reached back to near mythical progenitors to develop a unique identity after that independence in '91. The guides emphasized that they wanted the world to know their story and to understand their countries.

Let me run down a few more things from listeners as well. One wants to shout out road trips. Favorite trip was with our two kids driving to Yellowstone. Listened to audiobooks, stopped at little diners, found Idaho Falls, best Croatian spot. John recommends Scotland.

the Western Islands, the Fife Coast, the picturesque back roads, small villages, and random castles everywhere, and the Orkney Islands. Oh, that one. That one calls to me. Dylan recommends biking through the Pacific Northwest. He biked around the mountains in Idaho, the Columbia River Gorge, and across Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick with incredible fall foliage.

Martina took up camping in Mercy Hot Springs in Firebaugh. Another listener recommends Sonoma and says to hit the restaurant Valley Bottle in the town square. I can second that recommendation. One really fast go around the horn here. Just one place you'd like to recommend. And let's start with you, Amy. So I'm going to tell our listener who is thinking of going to Japan that

I went to a place called Koyasan, which is the seat of a sect of Buddhism in Japan. And we did a temple stay and it was absolutely amazing. And you get up at six in the morning and Faith knows all about this way more than I do. But you get up and you go and you listen to them chant in the morning, the Buddhist monks, and they serve you all your food. And it's just an incredible, incredible experience and a really beautiful place. That's awesome. Real quick, Billy.

Well, I was thinking back to earlier, Caller, was about taking pilgrimages and long walks. And one that's on my list is the Welsh Camino. So, yeah, Wales had this North... It's called the North Wales Pilgrim's Way. And it's older than...

Spain's Camino. It's actually 300 years older and a group of volunteers revived it within the past 10 years. And it links, you know, abbeys and sacred sites. And so... That's so cool. That's another one to add to your list. Ah!

Faith, we've got to go. People are going to have to read your writing to find out where you want them to go. Faith Adiela, Oakland-based travel writer, founder of the Traveling While BIPOC Writing Workshop. We've also been joined by Billy Cohen, executive editor from Afar Magazine and Amy Vershup, travel editor with The New York Times. Thank you all so much for such a fun conversation. I'm Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for another hour of Forum Ahead with guest host Rachel Miro.

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