'The Chaplain and the Doctor' Centers Empathy and Spirituality in Health Care
57:42 Share

Support for KQED Podcasts comes from San Francisco International Airport. At SFO, you can shop, dine, and unwind before your flight. Go ahead, treat yourself. Learn more about SFO restaurants and shops at flysfo.com.

From KQED.

From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Leslie McClurg. I'm in for Mina Kim. Coming up on Forum, a new documentary takes us inside the palliative care unit at Oakland's Highland Hospital, where two women, a black chaplain and a white Jewish doctor, are helping patients through some of life's hardest moments. At first, they don't quite click. But as they get older, they're able to do it.

But as they work side by side, they start to learn from each other and from their patients about what it really means to provide good care. That's next after this news. Welcome. This is Forum. I'm Leslie McClurg. I'm in today for Mina Kim. What does it really mean to care for someone who is in pain or maybe someone who is at the end of their life?

A new documentary, The Chaplain and the Doctor, follows two women who have spent decades sitting beside people with serious illnesses, people who are in their final days. Betty Clark is a chaplain and Dr. Jessica Zitter is a palliative care physician. And the film takes us inside Oakland's Highland Hospital, which is a level one trauma center in Oakland.

And it's premiering, the film is premiering at the San Francisco International Film Festival on Monday. And I have Chaplain Kahlak and Dr. Zitter here in studio with us this morning. Just for folks who might not be familiar, what exactly does a palliative care physician do?

Palliative care is really about caring for the whole patient as opposed to a specific organ or a specific disease. And we come to the patient and to the bedside with a whole sort of variety of specialists and people with different experiences, social workers, chaplains, physicians, nurses, and really try to attend to the patient as a whole human being. What does that mean in terms of the kind of care that you're going to provide patients?

We are very experienced in managing a whole variety of symptoms that may occur with serious illness. And we are also very experienced at managing decision-making and supporting patients and families through decision-making that's very centered on what their values and preferences are. And what about you? What does a chaplain do in palliative care?

First of all, I'm on a team, so I'm a colleague. And then when I go into a patient's room, I go in to observe, listen, and look. And then I help the patient with their spiritual distress. Sometimes it's fear. A lot of times it's afraid of dying or afraid of the dying process.

And sometimes it's just trying to find their hope, what they're hoping for and what they're holding on to. Is there a role for you even when a patient might not be spiritual or have any connection to God? Actually, absolutely, because spiritual and God can be two separate things. Someone's spirituality may be their dog, may be their family. It may be a walk on the beach. In some cases, it may be a Harley.

And before you met Chaplain Clark, what role did spirituality play in your work? Pretty much none. I hate to say it, but I really thought and was trained to think that health care was about

attending to the body and to the organs and the diseases and using machines. And that's how I was trained as an ICU doctor in particular. So I just didn't really pay attention to anything spiritual. I didn't really get to know my patients on a deep level. I didn't think that was of huge value. I was kind, but I wasn't really curious. So that was how I came to my relationship with Chaplain Clark. And what did she teach you that changed all that?

It was a long process because really early on in our relationship, I wasn't even really paying attention to what she was doing. I thought it was nice to have. It was something separate. It was separate from what I was doing. And honestly, I don't think I thought it was as important, which has very much changed over the past many years. So it took several years for me to really start to listen to her and to watch her and to see what was happening in the room when she attended to a patient.

What are you doing when you're with a patient? What's going on in there? Primarily, I look into their eyes, and I hope they look into mine and see care and love and acceptance. And if they're willing, I hold their hand and try to make a connection. And if they are spiritual or religious, I ask them what lifts their spirits. And if it's God, they'll tell me. And whatever it is that they tell me, that's where I go.

And why is your work important? I mean, that might be obvious, but why do you think, what happens in that room that feeds you, that feeds the patient? Well, there's a lot of things that happens. Sometimes it's the patients don't feel that they can communicate their fears and their doubts and their concerns with doctors. And they tell me.

And then I tell the doctors what's going on. And that helps the doctors to know how to treat them and how to be with them. Sometimes it's a family member. Sometimes it's getting the stories, especially getting the story. Because our patients are underserved and under-resourced. Some come from the street. They've had really struggles in their lives. And those struggles have affected them.

and the way they communicate, the way they relate to people, and the way they accept care. In the film, there's several places where you...

Give the patient, you know, physical touch, hold their hand, stroke their face. I noticed in the beginning you didn't, Dr. Zitter, but over time it seemed like you also shared that touch. It's really something I learned. You know, one of the things that you hear in the film is, at first, I would never pray. If Betty came in to pray, I would leave.

And that moment, it was early on, and you can actually see an example of it in the film where she says, "Will you stay and pray with us, Dr. Zitter?" was really transformative for me because at first I'm very uncomfortable. You can see it in the film. And as I began to do it more and more, I started to understand how critically important it was for me to be in that presence. Let's hear a clip from the film where you are praying with a patient. And while you go get the towel now, I'm going to pray.

Almighty God, my brother needs healing. My brother needs your touch. Yes, Jesus. My brother needs your love of surround him, your light of mercy. I can only see the fruits of the Spirit, Lord. The joy, the love, just those abounding fruits, God, and I just thank you for them. Thank you, thank you. Lord God.

I'm going to go with my brother and let you rest. Okay. And then get that pain under control. Betty, I love you so much. I love you. We love you. It's so good to be loved. Betty, I noticed that quite touched you. Do you want to share more about what that cut was about? Yes. This was a man who I had met many, like 15 years before, but I didn't remember him. But he remembered me, and he said he'd been looking for his angel son.

And he actually passed away and I did his funeral. Wow. Yeah. I'll tell you, I remember I went in to see him first and Betty didn't know he was in the hospital. And I was talking to him and I realized that he would really like to have a chaplain in the room. And I said, oh, I'm going to go get Chaplain Clark.

And he said, "Are you saying Chaplain Betty Clark?" And I said, "Yes." He said, "She taught me when I was a young pastor," because he was a pastor 20 years ago, "how to preside over a funeral. And I've been looking for her ever since." How common is a chaplain, and how did you find your way into this work?

I found my way into this work because my mother was dying and a chaplain had asked if anyone wanted in my training class, if anyone wanted to do an internship in hospice.

And I didn't say yes. And so when my mother was dying, we had hospitals for about four days. And I said, this is it. This is where I want to be. And so I came back to California because she was in Kentucky and went to the hospitals. And they said, oh, we don't let anyone volunteer after a serious illness in the family for a year. And I talked them into it. And I've been doing it ever since. That was 30 years ago.

Is her role common? I mean, are there usually chaplains in most hospitals? There's usually a chaplain and many palliative care teams, not all, there's a chaplain. And it's, again, you know, even on palliative care teams, I would say not at our hospital anymore because I think people know Betty. But in many hospitals, I think chaplaincy, even though it's considered as part of the interprofessional team, is not necessarily a part of the intervention, even on a palliative care team.

Betty, what was your first impression of Jessica? Well, I came on the team, and right away I was told that I was a colleague. And that didn't really happen in the hospice for me. And I took that role on, and so I felt more comfortable with Jessica than she felt with me. Yeah.

And so, and everyone knows I'm outspoken. So I just speak my mind. But I'm not upset with anyone or angry. So it was a growing relationship. But on my side, I was just, I loved her spirit. I loved her character.

freedom that she seemed to have with herself and her spirit. She was, and I'm calm. I'm walking around just calm and she's, so I said, we make a great team. And what about you? What was your first impression of Betty? Well, you hear it in the film. I, um,

I mean, I'm ashamed to say it now that we're such incredibly close friends, but I didn't really pay much attention. I thought she was lovely, but I wasn't really listening to her or paying attention to her in those days. But she did question right away, right after we met, and

And there was a patient, and I wrote up in the chart about the patient. And she called me, which I wasn't expecting a doctor to call me. I was going home and said, Betty, how did you do that? And I said, how did I do what? Get that story. And for me, that really began the relationship.

And I wish listeners could see this, but you two walked in holding hands and held hands at the beginning of our interview here. Can you tell me the story, though? When you first came in, it seemed like potentially you didn't quite see patients in the same way that she did and maybe made, you know, kind of an awkward judgment on a patient.

Oh, yes. That's a hard one. Yes, I think that one of the things that we do, and certainly as physicians, and I'm sure some physicians will disagree with me, but I think one of the things that we pride ourselves on is knowing things. And I think that's how labeling happens. It's part of human nature and the way the human brain works. But in medicine, we want to do things fast. We want to do things right. We want to know everything. And so

And labeling people in certain ways or thinking about people in certain ways is something that's pretty common. And this was a day where we were talking about, you know, a patient who had gotten shot. And I don't think I was the one who used the word gangbanger, but I don't know. Maybe I was, but it went around the room. And Betty really kind of, as we were getting ready to go see patients, she was sitting down and she kind of looked up and she said, that's racist. You don't even know who this person is. You haven't even met this person.

It was really uncomfortable. It was really hard.

But it was really real and important. We're going to get into more of that medical racism and what you learned from each other. We're talking about a new documentary called The Chaplain and the Doctor. It's about Dr. Jessica Zitter. She's a physician at Highland Hospital in Oakland and also the director of this new documentary. She's a palliative care physician and chaplain, Betty Clark, who is a chaplain at Highland Hospital. We're going to talk more about this film right after this break. Stay with us.

Support for KQED podcasts comes from San Francisco International Airport. You can fly back in time and visit SFO's Aviation Museum and Library to learn about the history of commercial aviation. No boarding pass needed. Learn more at flysfo.com slash museum.

This episode is brought to you by Chevy Silverado. When it's time for you to ditch the blacktop and head off-road, do it in a truck that says no to nothing. The Chevy Silverado Trail Boss. Get the rugged capability of its Z71 suspension and 2-inch factory lift. Plus, impressive torque and towing capacity thanks to an available Duramax 3-liter turbo diesel engine. Where other trucks call it quits, you'll just be getting started. Visit Chevy.com to learn more.

You're listening to Forum. I'm Leslie McClurg. I am in today for Meena Kim, and we are talking about a new documentary called The Chaplain and the Doctor. And it's really about how you care for patients when they're really in some really deep struggles or maybe at the end of their life. We are joined by Dr. Jessica Zitter. She's a physician at Highland Hospital in Oakland. She's also the director of this new documentary. And Chaplain Betty Clark, who obviously is the chaplain at Highland Hospital in this film.

Betty, I want to talk a little bit about your childhood. What was it like growing up in Kentucky? My great-grandparents were slaves there in the same town, and then they became sharecroppers of tobacco, my grandparents and my parents. And then I got married at 17 and sharecropped. It was a difficult life. I went to a one-room schoolhouse, four-room high school, and worked really hard on the farm.

At 10, there's this moment that you talk about in the film of being on a bridge and contemplating ending your life. Yeah. At 10 years old, that's rough. And then there were some other really, really challenging things that unfolded when you met your husband early with your children. Kind of give us a little bit more. Flesh that out. Yeah. Well, I had been molested as a child and then felt very much alone.

And when I got married, I quickly got pregnant. I had my daughter, who is still here. A year later, I had a son, and he died. A year later, I had another son. At the same time, I lost all of my teeth because I was poisoned with the arsenic, poison from they sprayed the tobacco. And then the next year, at 21, my husband was killed in a car crash. So I was a widow at 21 with a daughter. A lot of grief, a lot of grief.

So I kind of ran. I think I was running from grief when I got to California in 1968. I had 10 cents and no place. You had 10 cents when you came here? I had 10 cents. Wow. What about the medical care that you received when you were a kid growing up in Kentucky? We had one hospital for three counties, two rooms in the hospital that you could use, and two doctors in the town. Only one would serve African-Americans.

And so we had most of our medicine. My grandmother, who on my mother's side, who was part Indian, she would come down and make our medicine for the year. But I had blood poison five times and lockjaw and gourd in my neck. I just had all kinds of medical stuff going on because of the arsenic. Let's hear a cut from the film here about what it was like. Medical prejudice and brutality was really bad in the South.

There was one hospital for three counties where I grew up. In that one hospital, there was only two rooms that African Americans could be in. At one time, I accidentally shut my sister's finger up in the car door and cut the finger off. It was hanging by the skin. So my mother then rushed her to town. And so the doctor, who would see black people, was not there. So they took her over to the other one. He looked at it and wrapped it up. He didn't set the bone. He didn't stitch it. He just wrapped it up.

So I grew crooked and in another town. When I had my daughter, the doctors really didn't pay much attention to me. And I passed out and they forcibly took her. They didn't do a C-section. They just forced with the forceps, you know, and they tore my womb. How do you think that experience in the medical system shaped what you do today?

I think that and everything in my life helps me to feel where people are, even before they tell me. There's a look, you know, there's a feeling. People have these horrible stories, and I can hear them because they can't be any more horrible than mine.

A certain level of empathy, obviously. We're talking about a new documentary, The Chaplain and the Doctor. We're joined by Dr. Jessica Zitter. She's obviously the palliative care physician in the film, also the director, and Chaplain Betty Clark.

We'd love to hear from you. Do you have an experience in palliative care? Who or what made a difference in your experience? We'd love to hear your story. Or maybe has spirituality been a part of your medical care before? Again, we'd love to hear those stories as well. Email your comments, your questions to forum at kqed.org. You can find us on any of the social channels, Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, Discord, Threads. Again, we're at kqedforum. Or jump on the phone. We'd love to hear your story over a live voice.

866-733-6786. Again, that's 866-733-6786.

Casey on Discord writes, how do you see mental health care and therapy fitting into palliative care? Are there clinical psychologists on staff? I feel like that piece can sometimes be missing on palliative care teams. Jessica? A hundred percent. I think that psychologists and people who are attending to sort of mental health are really a critical part. I mean, I don't think that they're routinely part of a palliative care team. I wish they were. Yes.

I think there are many people who can sort of help to supplement what Betty does and think about spirituality and psychology and social. We have a social worker who's wonderful, but also end-of-life doulas, people who will sit and who are experienced in dying and death and who can be there in presence, I think would be really also helpful. Is any of this taught in medical school?

Palliative care has become this new rising subspecialty. More and more people are interested in it because it really answers some of the things that we are missing, that we all feel we're missing as we come into this healing profession. And we know we're not providing something very critical. So a lot of people are becoming more and more interested in palliative care. And I'd say we're getting more accepted over the years. It's really a new subspecialty, relatively new subspecialty in medicine. So we're making some progress.

Kimberly writes, I had such an incredible experience while my mother was in hospice. Her chaplain talked with my mom about her fear of death and hesitancy, things that I was not able to help her through. They spent three hours together. And after their very private and personal conversation, my mom was in great peace. She passed two days later, unburdened and freer in spirit. It was a huge gift and I'll never forget it. I had the chaplain speak at my mom's service to help others learn how to let go. Thank you for this segment.

Jessica, what has Betty taught you about the racism that is inside hospitals? Having...

becoming friends with Betty and starting to really connect with her. And really, I'm also interested in people's stories like Betty is. And I think that's one of the things that drew us together. I'm fascinated by stories and I'm fascinated by Betty's story. Just this morning, Betty was telling me more stories. I could never get enough of Betty's stories. And so as you listen to a person's story and you really start to connect with it and to care about it, you can't help but learn about

pieces of her lived experience that I wouldn't know about that include obviously racism. And as the film, as we sort of, you know, proceeded to make the film,

We started to both realize racism is a huge public health crisis in this country, medical racism, racial health care inequities. And this concept of bias towards people based on their skin color can also be extrapolated to many other variables, LGBTQ, gender, sexual orientation, et cetera. And we really we tried to show that a little bit in the film. But I think that medical racism is probably the big issue that we're looking at in the film.

What do you wish doctors knew or understood that you are not seeing inside the hospital, Betty? Well, I would like for them to connect more with chaplains. I'd like for the chaplains to be able to do more. But I'd like for them to connect more with chaplains because doctors seem to be really, really busy. There's some simple things they can do, like the language they use, right?

to tell a patient something. They can use baby talk. Sounds like baby talk to certain people, especially African Americans. So if you use simple, try to be simple. And I think a lot of doctors think that some people don't have literacy. They're not intelligent enough. They don't understand.

And so it's the way they talk to people. It's the way they come in the room and stand. If you stand way back from certain people, it makes them feel like you don't feel like they're good enough for you to be close to them. And all of those kinds of things.

We're talking about a new documentary, The Chaplain and the Doctor. It's about how we care for patients in really hard times or in their final days. We're joined by Dr. Jessica Zitter. She's a palliative care physician and director of this new documentary, and Chaplain Betty Clark, who is a chaplain. They both are at Highland Hospital in Oakland. We'd love to hear from listeners. Do you have an experience in palliative care, maybe as a patient or as a healthcare worker,

who or what made a difference when you were in the hospital in your hard moments? We'd love to hear your story. Or maybe something that you're listening to is reminding you of an experience in healthcare, maybe even medical racism.

Email your comments, your questions to forum at kqed.org. You can find us on Blue Sky, on Facebook, on Instagram, on Discord threads. Again, forum at KQED, or excuse me, forum, KQED forum. Give us a call now. I'd love to hear voices. 866-733-6786. Again, 866-733-6786. Obviously, African Americans and racism was a huge part of this film, but you also brought your own experience of antisemitism into it.

into this film. You've got a patient who's a Holocaust survivor. What message, what do you want people to know from bringing in those experiences and those patients? The film changed over the course of making it. It started out really being a film about Betty. I was behind the camera. It was called The Chaplain of Oakland. And

As for many reasons, I decided that I needed to be in the film. It was a little uncomfortable at first, but really needed to show a transformation, an arc of a change. And it was really me. I'm the person who was changed in this film. And that's why I made it. And it was hard to show that when I wasn't in the film. So once I became a character in the film, it really felt much more personal and interesting.

Bringing in this patient who really was someone I could relate to on a lived experience level in a way that I don't relate to African-American patients because I don't share that lived experience made me understand for the first time, I think, in some ways, what it must feel like for Betty to be trying to advocate for patients against tropes. It was really my first visceral experience with that patient.

What did you see when she was able to really connect with this Holocaust survivor, this patient? What did you see? What was the change that you saw in Jessica, Betty? Well, she talked to me about it and how she began to see what I might be going through when there's an African-American patient who's being discriminated against and I'm trying to advocate for them. And I was there, saw that happen with this patient as well.

And I think that what we need to understand is that there's one race in the world, and that's human, and that everything else is culture, and we share cultures.

And we share, we have a lot of commonalities between us. And I think that that brings people closer together. And so as Jessica saw that, she could identify and we could get even closer because of the commonalities of our shared history. Ancestral pain doesn't have a color. It's pain. I'm just taken by those words. Mm-hmm.

You talk about your own health issues that become as part of this narrative. Obviously, this work is not easy. Talk to me about that arc of sort of the journey of trying to figure out what was wrong with your own health issues. I'm a walking miracle. You are a walking miracle. I agree.

I've had so many health issues because of the childhood experiences. And I had a doctor who took out a lot of my organs. And he said, I'd love for you to still be my patient, but there's nothing left to take out. And so just about anything a person can talk about their health, I've had it.

And, you know, it just makes me realize that we're more than our flesh and our bones and our blood. We're spirit. And so I think that makes a big difference. I've seen people who the doctors will say, well, you know, they're not going to make it. And their spirit says, yes, I am.

You were there as a doctor. What was wrong with her? What was sort of the journey about trying to figure out what Betty was dealing with on her own health? Well, as you see in the film, I become pretty

Invested? Invested. I had become very invested in Betty and her health. And it's been going on for years, sort of this, you know, symptoms coming up. And sometimes she'd have things that felt like chest pain, and I would just immediately make sure that we got her in to see somebody sometimes that same day. And it was worrisome. I mean, there were things happening that I felt uncomfortable with. And, you know, she was seeing specialists and seeing my friends, a pulmonologist, cardiologist, everything.

And I still worried. And so I think that final scene, you sort of get a lot of information, but it was very concerning. She even prayed for me in the ICU, in the emergency room. I tried to pray like Betty. She said, do you mind if I pray for you? Well, I mean, at first you thought it was cardiovascular and then worried that it was cancer. And it ended up just being incredible stress. Let's hear a clip from the film. I had two episodes in the hospital recently.

And part of what put me there was stress, balancing, telling the truth, trying to get patients cared for, dealing with bias and denial and defending those who can't defend themselves. And it puts you in a strain. I was having symptoms of a heart attack from stress. Hard work. Let's go to the phones. Janice in San Rafael, you're on the air.

Thank you very much. I just cared for my mother, who was 106. She just passed away holding my hand. I cared for her for about six years on and off. She was...

alert, she was not mobile at the end, but she was very understanding. And I think I just want to bring up one point, and I love this film, and I'm going to go see it. I love listening to the both of you talk. This really makes my heart warm, because it was such a privilege to care for my mother. And I think the thing we need to understand, and my mother had done hospice work earlier in her life,

So I knew she knew how to care for people, you know, in that situation. And when I was there with her, as she was getting close, I took her off all medication the last two years of her life. So she had no medication. I treated her with only homeopathic remedies. And I think I want to just bring one point up that as people get closer to death, their vibration gets more sensitive to things. And so like, you

And that way, I just felt like I was caring for her in the most gentle way possible. And she responded really well and lived another two years. And so no medication. I made all of her food organically from scratch. I used chia seed as a thickener and no chemicals in her body. And the night she was passing, I knew that there was something strange about her.

you know, what was going on. And so I was with her two or three times getting up and just being with her and giving her, I gave her no medications, chemicals or anxiety pills. I just gave her a spray called Flora Ease, which is a relaxing spray. It's made out of flower essences. And this is the way I treated her with really sensitive vibration, you know, careful to vibration, holding her hand, talking to her gently and just being present for her as she made this transition.

Sounds like so much love, just a shower of really gentle and caring love. 106. Janice, that's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing. I saw both of you nod there. What was it about that story that really touched you, Betty? Well, as a hospice chaplain myself, I went to see a patient whose stepson had what she said was teaching her to pray.

And then they called me back when she was dying. And he said, my sister's having a hard time. Can you talk to her? And so I said, can we go downstairs and have a cup of coffee? And so I said, what's going on? She says, I've been trying to save my mother and I just don't know what to do. And I said, and then she said to me, and I know you know what I mean, because I'm sure you saved many people. I said, I haven't saved anybody.

I said, I'm not a savior and neither are you. I said, what your mom needs is to know that she's loved unconditionally. And she says, oh, I've missed so much time. I said, you still have time. She's still breathing. Just go tell her how much she's loved. We're talking about a new documentary, The Chaplain and the Doctor, with Dr. Jessica Zitter and Chaplain Betty Clark. We'll be right back after this break. I'm Leslie McClurigan for Mena Kim Today.

Support for KQED Podcasts comes from Star One Credit Union, now offering real-time money movement with instant pay. Make transfers and payments instantly between financial institutions, online or through Star One's mobile app. Star One Credit Union, in your best interest.

Calling hard seltzer lovers. Searching for the tastiest seltzer? Look no further. Neutral Vodka Seltzer is absolutely delicious. Made with real vodka and real juice, Neutral keeps it tasty with every sip. With flavors like pineapple, watermelon, orange, and lime, there's something for everyone. Neutral. Keep it tasty. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2025 Anheuser-Busch. Neutral flavored vodka and carbonation. 4.5% alcohol by volume. St. Louis, Missouri.

You're listening to Forum. I'm Leslie McClurg. I'm in for Mina Kim today, and we're talking about the new documentary, The Chaplain and the Doctor. It's about palliative care at the end of life, but it's also about the friendship between Dr. Jessica Zitter, who is at Highland Hospital, with Chaplain Betty Clark. We'd love to hear from you. Do you have an experience in palliative care as a patient or as a healthcare worker, or

what made a difference? Who made a difference? We'd love to hear your story. You can email your comments, your questions to forum at kqed.org. Or you can find us on any of the social platforms, Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, Discord. We're at KQED Forum. Or you can just give us a call now at 866-733-6786. Again, that's 866-733-6786. Let's go straight to the phones. Jim in Concord, you're on the air.

Yes. Good morning. I want to let you know that my partner of 22 years died in January of 2024 after a long illness of cancer for five years. And I will have to say that palliative care was just incredible. It was so good for him. He had cancer.

He had people to talk to spiritually and emotionally, and it was really, really good. And he also brought me into it, and I'm still getting the comfort and therapy that he was getting. It's a continuum, and it's just I think that it's –

You know, the option of being able to choose when you die, when you have a terminal illness, is like the greatest step in medicine in decades. It's really, really important to really look at...

the patient and the people close to that person and really work with them in this very difficult time. And it's just, you know, I have nothing but good things to say about palliative care. Jessica wants to jump in here. I think she's got a comment for you. Thank you for your story, Jim, and I'm sorry to hear about your partner. Yes, Jim, I'm so sorry, and I'm so happy to hear that he had, you know, some comfort towards the end.

And just a quick point. Thank you for your comments about palliative care. Palliative care is not the same as medical aid in dying, that idea of being able to decide when your time comes up. So I just want to make sure that people understand that palliative care isn't about death. Palliative care is...

It's about living, as Betty would say. And, you know, hospice is a subset of palliative care. Hospice is palliative care for patients who are dying. But we have many, many patients who are living and going to live for a long time. In fact, some of them are coming to our film premiere.

Which, by the way, is on Monday evening. The documentary premieres at the San Francisco International Film Festival on Monday at the Marina Theater in San Francisco and on Wednesday at BAM PFA in Berkeley. You were going to say something there, Betty. Yes, I was going to say palliative care also goes along with curative care where hospitals, you have to have a six-month diagnosis that you have six-month diagnosis that you are not going to live longer than six months, even though some people graduate. Right.

But palliative care, people are getting chemo, they're getting curative care, they come off of whatever and they live, as Jessica said. Let's go back to the phones. William in Alameda, you're on the air. Hi there. Can you hear me okay? Yeah, you sound great.

Okay. So I lost a father-in-law to Parkinson's, and in the process of that, he ended up with Parkinson's dementia. And we went from moving from his house into an apartment, which is pretty traumatic, and then from an apartment we need to take him to a home where they had four rooms. And

He was never a religious man. He never went to church. He never prayed, never had a relationship with God. And yet, in this home, they were pretty insistent that a pastor come in and speak with them as he got closer to his last days. And here's a man who was disoriented a bit anyway from the dimension from Parkinson's. He didn't

a benefit in any way from having this particular pastor there. And I just have a question for the chaplain and also maybe for the doctor that how do you, it seemed to me that it was more for the pastor to meet with him than it was for him. You know what I mean? Go ahead, Betty.

Yes, and that's one of the things I hope this movie helps to change with chaplains, because chaplains see themselves as pastoral care, and we're not their pastor. I go in to people who have no faith, no religion at all.

And I always ask, what lifts your spirits? Because everyone has something that lifts their spirits, whether it's their puppy or their wife or their children or just whatever lifts their spirits. And so evidently, this chaplain didn't see his role as one who helps people with their spirit as much as he did with their religion. And I want chaplains to understand that when you go to see people,

a patient, people as a chaplain. You're not there as a pastor. Let's stay with the phones. Susan in Stanford, you're on the air.

Oh, thank you for taking my call. I want to sing the praises of Dr. James Hallenbeck. And from 2003 to 2004, I had the privilege of being on a... with several other professionals at the VA hospice ward at the VA hospital in Palo Alto. And I'd come from a very prestigious academic setting, and I'd never seen a physician walk into a room

after patient permission to sit down at the bed take the patient and and look this patient in the eye and begin to explore with him what his values and ethics were about how we wanted to be treated and um... doctor jessica i want to take my hat off to you uh... to see this new generation of physicians who are not afraid to do that anymore and uh... because the rest of us with a psychosocial team we had to chaplain the psychologist the nurse practitioner in media msw

And we were fighting over the psychosocial needs. But to see the physician, it was so incredible. And to set that model for future palliative care doctors was just fantastic. So thank you for your wonderful work. Thank you. So glad to hear that you had that experience with Dr. Hallenbeck. Yeah, thanks for calling in, Susan. Anna on Discord writes, as a clinical psychologist with training in palliative care and end-of-life psychology, I would love to be part of a team like this.

Unfortunately, there are not many employment opportunities specifically for hospice or palliative care psychologists, although there is clearly a need for a humanistic approach that addresses mind, spirit, and body. Is that unfortunately the truth, Jessica? I hate to say it, but I think it is. I mean, I don't really know of any teams myself that have psychologists on them. Let's go to John in Coronado. You're on the air. Hello? You're on the air. Go ahead.

Oh, hi. I beg your pardon. I wanted to share two things, two incidents, one with my mom several years back and then just recently with my Aunt Barbara. And with my mom, I had a very interesting relationship, you know, as a gay man. And at the same time, I felt blessed that I was sitting beside her when she died and just nobody else. She shared that

most intimate moment with me. And I always felt like I was so blessed that she did that for me, that I was there holding her hand. And the same with my Aunt Barbara. I mean, it's such a blessing when somebody gives you the privilege of being there at such an intimate moment in life. And I just feel like I'm blessed. Beautiful, John.

I have to admit on a personal note, I was not there when my dad died, and I will never forget.

get over the fact that I wasn't there to hold his hand. You know, he was on the other side of the world and I didn't think I could get there by plane, but man, do I wish I would have gotten on that plane so I could sit and hold his hand in those final moments. My sister and I were at my mother's bedside and we were on each side of her bed holding her hand and watching her breathe. And when she took that last breath, it never came back. And I just always wondered, where did it go? Hmm.

Let's go back to the phones. Elizabeth in Sonoma, you're on the air. Hi. Yeah. My question for you is about Alzheimer's and how the laws are in California and the United States. This is Scandinavia. Alzheimer's runs in my family and both my grandparents died of it. And I guess

I get emails from an organization that you may have heard of called A Better Exit that's trying to change the laws and make that more accessible for folks in California. And I was wondering if you all had had experience with people who wanted to take that path of

choosing to end their lives before they had to go through Alzheimer's and experiences that you've had with people with dementia or Alzheimer's in hospice. Interestingly, we don't have a lot of experience in our hospital with medical aid in dying.

I know they have it certainly at other hospitals like Kaiser, et cetera, but it's not something that our population is particularly interested in that we know of. What I will say is that it's a really tragic thing to think about people with dementia who really would not want to live with that quality of life of having end-stage dementia, and yet the problem is identifying a moment when medical aid in dying would be realistic. Is it too soon or is it too late? And it's a very tough situation.

You're listening to Forum. I'm Leslie McClurg. I'm in today for Mina Kim, and we are talking about the new documentary, The Chaplain and the Doctor. It's about Dr. Jessica Zitter and Chaplain Betty Clark. Dr. Jessica Zitter is a palliative physician at Highland Hospital, and Betty Clark is a chaplain there.

We'd love to hear from you. Do you have an experience in palliative care, either as a patient or a health care worker? We'd love to hear your story. You can give us a call at 866-733-6786. Steve on Discord writes, I was the primary caretaker for both my mother-in-law and later my mother. It's been some years now, but I don't feel like I'm 100% back to being on even an even keel even yet. Any advice for someone who might be still struggling after a death of a family buddy?

Yes. First of all, you have to think about yourself. Simple things as eating and resting and getting someone to talk to. There are grief counselors, and you can just to share with what you're feeling, where the pain is, because grief is pain, and it affects us in different parts of our body. Sometimes it feels like it's in our heart.

Sometimes I feel like it's in our head or our stomach. And just get some professional help because grief, you can get stuck in it. And if you get stuck in it, you struggle with it a long time. In the film, Jessica, you went to Israel and were unfortunately near a terrorist attack and came back pretty traumatized by that experience.

Betty really helped you through that. What was some of the advice or what really landed for you? It was a tough moment. It was a real tough moment. It was a moment where, you know, I really needed Betty. I was too, I felt too traumatized to go back to work for a while and Betty was

was there for me. In fact, I remember saying, are you going to be there? Are you going to stay with me? And she really kind of got me back into work. But it was very, very hard, and it was a very traumatizing moment. And we decided to film it. I wasn't even sure I could keep making the film at that point. I really was so traumatized. And I said to Betty, I just don't know if I can do it anymore. And we decided to have one final shoot and see how it went. And that's that shoot that's in the film.

It was a really profound scene. Marika writes,

What message do each of you want to send? Why did you make this film, and what message do you hope lands with listeners today and those who watch the film on Monday? Patty, go ahead. Well, I have three things that sticks with me. One is that everyone is different, and different is not wrong or bad. It's just different. I ask questions, and even when you're uncomfortable...

Ask questions because that gets people to open up and talk. And then it's not about me. When I'm listening to someone, it's not about me. What's happening with me is about them. Jessica? For me, coincidentally, this film comes at a time which I think is really important for all of us to see a film like this, which is to stress the fact that differences...

expansive and coming together across differences and experiencing each other's lives can be really healing for all of us and it also can allow us as healthcare providers to give the best care possible. Let's sneak in a call before the end of the hour. Anne in Mountain View, you're on the air. Hi. I realize time is short so I'm going to not

not say as much as I would like about how grateful we are to the palliative care team and the hospital employees who helped us when my dad passed recently. But I did want to suggest a couple of things that would have helped us and for people involved in that kind of work to consider. One is that

I think some of what they're doing is not just easing the transition of the person who's

the loved one who's passing, but also to kind of minimize the regrets and conflict of those who are left behind. And there's not always a hard line between medical. There's not always a clear line that somebody is definitely passing or that there's hope. You know, it's not always easy to, you know, when the

palliative care people and the medical people draw such a hard line. It would have helped us if that line had been blurred just a little bit more so that we could make decisions that we were more comfortable with. And this is especially true when there's different religions among the

who are making their primary decisions. That factors into the kind of decisions people make, and it would have helped us if there had been less of a hard line between those teams. It also would have helped if the palliative care people had been able to explain the research-based rationale behind patients

the approach that they wanted to take because I think... Anne, I would let you keep going, but we're coming up against the... Anne, I'm so sorry to cut you off, but we're coming up against the hour, and I want to give Betty just a moment to respond to that because you were nodding the whole time. Quickly, what was landing there? Yes, our team says to families, especially when there is a struggle about their belief in what the doctors are saying, is that we want to hope with you.

We want to hold on, hold on to that hope. And we want to hope with you. That's a beautiful way to summarize there. I want you to be there to hope with me at the end, Betty.

Thank you so much, both of you, for joining us. The film, The Chaplain and the Doctor, is playing this coming Monday. I hope our audience goes and sees it. I would love to. It's at the San Francisco International Film Festival. It screens at the Marina Theater in San Francisco and again next Wednesday at BAM PFA in Berkeley. And thank you to all of our listeners. Really appreciate the comments, the questions, and of course the beautiful, heartfelt stories. Thank you both. Thank you. Thank you.

I'm Leslie McClurg. I'm in for Mina Kim today. You're listening to Forum. Have a great weekend.

Support for KQED Podcasts comes from San Francisco International Airport. At SFO, you can shop, dine, and unwind before your flight. Go ahead, treat yourself. Learn more about SFO restaurants and shops at flysfo.com.

Hey, it's Glenn Washington, the host of the Snap Judgment Podcast. At Snap, we tell cinematic stories that let you feel what it's like inside someone else's skin. Stories that let you walk in someone else's footsteps. Storytelling like you've never heard. The highs, the lows, the joys, the pain, the twists, the turns, the laughs, the life. Snap Judgment drops each and every week. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

I just think Jesus was what we would now define as Christ.

and family. We're not physically close and we're not like that emotionally close either. So join me and some amigas as we have easy conversations about hard things. Catch Hyphenation from KQED Studios wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.