What Do You Love About Being Single?
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From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Mina Kim. Coming up on Forum, Nicola Slauson says there's beautiful freedom in being unattached. But too often, single people are made to feel like there's something wrong with them, from the way they're treated at parties to the taxes they pay. In a new book called Single, Slauson shows how everyone, the single and partner alike, would benefit if we ended the stigma against being unattached. After all, being single can happen to anyone at any time.

And Slauson reminds us, there's much too much to miss if you wait to fall in love for your life to start. Join us. Welcome to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Journalist Nicola Slauson says it's long past time we stop treating people who are single with, quote, a mixture of pity, fear, and judgment.

It's a reaction Slauson knows well after more than a decade being single, a status she finds beautiful and complicated, freeing and expensive, and not the same experience for everyone. Which is why her new book, called Single, shares the varied and enlightening stories of being single in today's world.

Listeners, what's your experience of being single? What do you love or miss about being single? You can tell us by calling 866-733-6786, posting on our social channels, Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram threads at KQED Forum or emailing forum at kqed.org. Nicola, thanks so much for being with us.

Oh, thanks so much for having me. It's an honor. So there's a story you share that happened to you about five years ago at a yoga retreat when a woman asks you a question that gives you pause. Can you tell that story?

Yeah, so I was on this yoga retreat in France. And actually, the only reason I was there was because none of my friends wanted to go on holiday with me because they were all going on holiday with their husbands or children, which is a common problem that single people face when it comes to the summer. And I was on this yoga retreat, which is actually, you know, it was amazing. And I talked a little bit about being single and

And a lady took me aside and asked what advice I would give to her daughter who was in her 20s and was the only single one in her friendship group. And at first I was thinking, why is she asking me? What advice could I possibly give that would find, you know, that this girl would find comforting given that I was about, I think, eight years older at least than her at the time.

And, you know, I didn't think that was going to be very comforting to somebody who didn't want to be single anymore. But then as I started talking, I realized that some of the best times of my life had actually happened while I was while I was single. I'd traveled, I'd progressed my career, I'd won some really prestigious scholarships when I did my master's degree. And

I had loads of friends. I was doing really cool things. I was living in London. And I realized that actually I wouldn't take those years back of being single. I wouldn't wish them away. And the reason it sort of gave me pause was because I was thinking, why is it that somebody who's in their 20s

the prime of their life, feeling so bad and almost embarrassed and shamed to be single, you know, and feeling already like she's behind and that she's getting left behind her friends. And I just kept mulling that over because up until then, I'd sort of not really let myself think too much about the fact I was single. And so then I began to think a lot more about it and read around the subject and

And it made me realize that actually a lot of the times when I was feeling really negative about being single is because I was either comparing myself to friends or I was feeling external pressure to, you know, find someone, settle down quickly, because that's sort of what's expected of us in society, in culture, in our families as well. So when I sort of realized if I let that go, that external pressure and stop comparing myself,

I realized that, you know, I did have a really good life. And, and then that sort of made me speak to more single people as well. And which also helps because then you feel less alone as well. So, yeah.

You have this really great line that I think illustrates what you're describing. You write, what I thought I should feel as someone without a partner, rather than how I actually felt, like there was this disconnect, right, between that expectation and what your actual life was. And then you also say, it feels like it is only acceptable to be single if you are actively trying not to be. What do you mean by that?

I just felt like every conversation I had where, you know, somebody realized I was single, they'd immediately ask, oh, how's your dating life?

Oh, how's it going on the apps? Let me play on your apps. It was just assumed that you're always trying desperately not to be single. And even in the newspaper articles and the magazine articles that I'd read, if there was an article aimed at single people, it would usually be about dating. When actually, you know, dating was only a small part of my life and there were so many other aspects involved.

there's so many other aspects to being single that just weren't being talked about. And, you know, it was just, it just felt like when I'd say I'm not dating, people just didn't really know what to do with that. It felt a bit awkward. I think they were just like, oh, well, oh no. Or people would ask, oh, what's wrong with you? Why are you still single? You know, as if you are at fault and they're sort of trying to give you a compliment, you know, there's nothing wrong with you, but

It doesn't feel like that in the moment. Right.

Talk about why people... It was such an obvious thing once I read it, but it was wonderful to have that reminder. Why people who are not single now should have a vested interest in conquering those kinds of messages, those kinds of feelings that can come with those types of comments and questions when you talk about your single status. Just an interest in ending the stigma that's attached to being single. Yeah, I think that...

It's one of those things that the disability community, they say, you know, you should be interested and care about disability rights because one day you probably will end up disabled. Because, you know, if you do get to an old age, you probably end up with a walker or something like that.

And it's a similar thing with being single. I interviewed people who were widowed, who were divorced, and some of the ones that were divorced, they had no idea it was coming. So that's a sort of horrible thought. But also, more seriously as well, for people who were in really toxic relationships, it

or even abusive relationships, there's sort of an idea that everyone sort of buys into that you should be lucky to be in a relationship, you should feel lucky. And so if we can sort of break that a little bit and make people realise that actually being single isn't the worst thing in the world, I think it would help people leave situations where they shouldn't be in, or even unhappy ones, even if they're not abusive or anything like that.

So it would help you, it would help your friends. And yeah, you just never know when you might end up on your own. And yet it's sort of seen like as soon as you sort of get married, you'll live happily ever after. But obviously, sadly, the divorce rates don't show that's true. Yeah.

So that's a bit depressing, sorry. Not at all. We're talking with Nicholas Lawson about being single and why everyone, the single and partnered alike, would benefit if we ended the stigma against being unattached. And listeners are calling in. Let me go to Kathleen in Novato. Hi, Kathleen, you're on. Hi. Oh, thank you so much for letting me speak. I just wanted to say I'm single now, and I've been single for, whoo, 10 years.

17 years and not without a boyfriend but single for the most part but um

There's a freedom, and the relationships I have with men now, they're of depth, and they're based on friendship and equality and equanimity. You know, there's no expectations and things like that. And I've had three great loves, one when I was eight, two eight-year-old children, one in my 30s and one in my 50s, and I've had some abusive relationships. And I can remember when I was a young woman,

My mother would say, you know, you don't have to have a relationship to be whole. And I thought I did, but I found out that I didn't.

as I got older. And so there's a beauty and a power to being single. Of course, I get lonely sometimes. I'm a single woman. I do have my dog and he keeps me company a lot. But I have family, friends, and I got a couple of guys. I'm 66 years old, but I got at least three guys who are crushing on me. So it's knock for knock.

Oh, well, Kathleen, thank you for sharing all of that and touched on so many of the points that Nicola has already made. Nicola, I don't know if you have a reaction to Kathleen's comment, but I'd also just love to hear what you love most about being single. Oh, I love that comment. Thanks so much for calling in. And, um,

I sort of really relate because I was so obsessed with getting a boyfriend when I was a teenager and in my early teens that I would sort of, it was sort of at any cost, I would just completely ignore red flags and basically have no self-respect whatsoever.

um because I thought that having a boyfriend was the most important thing and you know that would give me sort of validation and so it's very freeing when you realize that's actually not true and yeah you are a whole person um I interviewed Bella DiPaolo in the book and she reminds everyone that one is a whole number um which I find really comforting as well um yeah some of the

I think I actually asked people a question that you've asked people, what do they miss about being single? Which helped highlight some of those things, which was, you know, just the freedom to be able to just do exactly as you please without having to compromise, without having to ask anyone. But also I think that some people might think that's a bit individualistic, but actually I think when you're single, you really nurture your friendships and you really nurture your community. Yeah.

And my friends are the loves of my life and I've really invested in them, which I've been able to do because I wasn't sort of sidetracked by a man. So, yeah, it's not just about things that you do on your own, although that is also very liberating. You know, I've travelled solo.

And, you know, got a house and decorated it all myself, all to my own taste without having to ask anyone. All those things are great. But also, yeah, spending more time with friends and nurturing friendships and, yeah.

and also volunteering and being part of your community as well. Yeah, I liked the answers you included in your book. Those, of course, and there were others about people who were saying that they missed not having to deal with in-laws. Yes. And then someone told you that they missed the chance to explore their sexuality. Yeah, they did. Yeah. That was a private message that somebody sent me, but they said that I could share it. And they said that they sort of realized that they were potentially bisexual and

and that they were in a committed relationship. So they didn't want to explore that by cheating or anything. So they felt like they'd sort of missed out on exploring that when they were younger and single.

And then the fact that people wanted to just message you privately, even though you put this out publicly, was also sort of telling, right? Yeah. I was like, you can say that you miss being single sometimes. It doesn't mean that you're not happy in your relationship. I had a few people say they missed absolutely nothing about being single. And I thought, come on, you missed something. Yeah.

Nicholas Lawson is a journalist and author, and their new book is Single, Living a Complete Life on Your Own Terms, which came out yesterday in the US. Nicholas also writes The Single Supplement, a newsletter for single women. We'll have more with Nicholas after the break. Stay with us. You're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim.

Turing with Tia is the quirky YouTube talk show where Tia Creighton is the host and all her guests are talking AI chatbots. Whether it's health and beauty, science and technology, pop culture, or current events, Turing with Tia delivers answers about everything. That's T-U-R-I-N-G, Turing with Tia, a funny and fascinating way to experience artificial intelligence. Only on YouTube at Turing with Tia.

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Welcome back to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. We're talking this hour about being single, a status Nicholas Lawson finds beautiful and complicated, expensive and also very freeing and definitely not the same experience for everyone. And you, our listeners, are sharing your experiences, what you liked or like about being single, what you dislike.

Have you noticed your relationship status affecting the way people treat you? What do you think are the biggest misconceptions about being single? You can email forum at kqed.org. Find us on our social channels at KQED Forum. You can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786. And this is Snarl, Blue Sky Writes. As I sit here trying to put all of the benefits of aloneness in one post, I have decided that it boils down to having peace.

Marina writes,

So Nicola, while you talk about the joys that you felt being single, at the same time, you write that you don't want to sugarcoat the challenges nor force any toxic positivity down people's throats. What do you mean by toxic positivity? I felt like sometimes people would react to the fact that I had a newsletter called The Single Supplement and they'd say, but I don't want to be single. And I, you know, or I don't like being single and I'm unhappy being single.

And that's not what the newsletter or my book is about. It's not about making you feel better about being single and just ignoring all the challenges. And it's also, it is for people who would like very much not to be single as well. I hope to have a romantic relationship in the future. I'm comfortable and confident being single at the moment.

But it's something I do want in the future. So I think that sometimes there's a tendency to sort of be very all or nothing. So, oh, we're going to be, you know, we're going to talk about single positivity. It's amazing being single and then completely overlook all the challenges and the difficulties.

um or the fact that you might not want to be single which is why I sort of say in the book you know whether you're single for a day or a decade um you know it's about making the most of the moment and not putting your life on hold in this moment um so that's sort of my philosophy so it's a little bit more nuanced than single positivity um but yeah hopefully helpful to a lot of people as well

You interviewed author Lucy Webster, who wrote The View from Down Here, who says she is not single by choice and is happy. What did you learn from talking with Lucy? Because that offered another nuance, I thought. Yeah, that was a really good interview. She's an amazing writer and her book's brilliant. And she just wanted to make the point that it wasn't just that if you're single by choice that you can be happy.

You can still find happiness and find joy, even if you're not single by choice, which she isn't. And I just thought that was so beautiful and really important point to make because, you know, people reading it might be in a similar situation to her where they feel like,

They would dearly love to be in a relationship, but at the same time, they want to find happiness. And you shouldn't have to wait until you find a relationship in order to find happiness. Because also, you know, as I've learned in my past relationships, you know, finding a partner doesn't mean that you're going to be happy, unfortunately, as nice as it can be. You know, it's an inner thing, isn't it?

happiness. Yeah. Michael writes, I've been single all my 80 years and never felt like I had to or even wanted to be otherwise. Even when I've lived with someone, I never felt that I wasn't single. Let me go to Natalie in San Francisco. Hi, Natalie, you're on.

Hi, thank you guys for having this conversation. And it is very complex. And so I appreciate the fact that all of these different perspectives are being covered. So just very, very quickly, I actually have a boyfriend right now. We've been dating for about four months.

I really, really like him a lot, but I actually plan on breaking up with him today because I realized that as much as I was like really, really wanting a relationship, I feel like I've just been being strangled a little bit. It's like I got used to a lot of independence and I still like

all of a sudden having to take into consideration like everything that I do I have to take this other person into consideration makes me feel like I just I don't have the ability to just do what I want to do and I think that that's

really important. And I also think that, you know, I've been in a couple serious relationships and my first serious relationship was like in my mid third era, sorry, mid twenties. We were together for eight years and I thought that I was going to marry that person. And I'm so glad that I didn't because I'd be miserable today. And listen, there's positives and negatives to being single. I would like to find a

a partner, but it's about finding the right partner. And I also think that that takes time to figure out who you are first. I think people who are really worried when they're in their, you know, twenties or I'm, I'm turning 39 next week. And, you know, I still don't really know what I want. And I did so much growing in my thirties as an independent person that I

Like I wouldn't, I still don't, I still clearly can't be in a relationship yet that I feel like fits me. So there's a lot of independent growing to do, I think. And people should take their time doing that and be okay making decisions for themselves first. You know, Natalie, thank you so much. It reminds me actually of something, Nicola, that you said that a decade of being single has taught you and that

That you built a relationship with the most important person in your life, and that was you, right? Yeah, definitely. That's definitely been my experience. When I was sort of going through these relationships, I was jumping from one to another and getting my heart broken in every one. I just didn't really...

think of myself and look after myself and, um, and becoming single and learning to have actually look, stand on my own two feet and look after myself, um, has been incredibly empowering and, and beautiful. And, and, you know, I hate the phrase when people say you have to love yourself before anyone else will love you. Because even when I didn't love myself, lots of people in my life love me, you know, my parents love me, my, my friends love me. Um, but,

But learning to love myself and learning self-respect and all those things has been, you know, life changing. But I've done that for me. I haven't done that to sort of impress someone or try and bag myself a man. But at the same time, I do think that when I do get into a relationship in the future, it'll stand me in good stead that, you know, I do have all those things and I do look after myself, I think. Yeah.

Yeah. Noelle on Discord writes, I take mini breaks for my husband. I go out to the store and then wander around a bit. Also, I go on trips alone. Otherwise, I'm more of a person who likes being in a partnership. Keeping friendships up is important. Do you want to say a word about what you gain from traveling alone, Nicola? Yeah.

Yeah, sure. I love the idea of mini breaks. That's amazing. And actually, some of the yoga retreats I've been on, people have been married and they've left their husbands at home, which I think is so cool. Yeah, I mean, I first went traveling in the US, actually, stayed on Whidbey Island in Washington State. And first...

on my completely on my own went up to Canada um and you know everything went wrong when I got there and it was terrible I my card got um blocked because I was suddenly using in a different country and I had no money to like buy any food or anything and um and but then figuring that out and pushing myself out of my comfort zone to try and make some friends um

just made me feel like on cloud nine it was amazing and so it's a sort of addictive feeling because once you have to sort of figure stuff out because things do go wrong when you're traveling whether you're traveling alone or not but to be able to figure out yourself it's just so yeah it just makes you feel invincible it's amazing and yeah one of the best trips I've taken on my own was to Morocco

And everyone told me, you can't possibly go there as a woman on your own. And I ended up having the most amazing trip. And I met amazing people from Moroccans and also from abroad as well. So, yeah, it was just so empowering. And also, I wasn't actually on my own for very long because when you are traveling alone, you soon make friends. So, yeah, I probably was only alone for about a couple of days. Yeah.

So true. This is Narite's traveling solo is such a liberating experience. I recommend that to everyone who has not tried it. This is what I miss the most from being single.

Another listener, Laura, writes, I have been single for decades. After three serious relationships with men, being a single, straight, never married woman is hard for people to understand. They always question me. I'm proud of the life I have built, the friends I have, and the freedom of alone time in my house that I own. I retired at 70, and I am so truly content.

So Nicola, you chose to focus this book on women and non-binary people. I mean, for obvious reasons, because the challenges are different for women than for men and cisgender people as well. But do you just want to highlight a few that you feel like it's really important for people to remember or to understand?

Um, yeah, so I, I, I decided to just focus on women and non-binary people. Um, I was going to do it for everybody actually, but then I realized the book would be double the size and, uh, and I already wrote too much, had to be cut down. And so, um, and also I just felt like I wasn't the right person to write that book, but I very much would like to sort of throw down the gauntlet and, uh, hope somebody takes, takes it up and, and writes the book, um, for men. Uh,

uh because it is there are different challenges and sometimes I think that in a way I'm lucky because I can there are there are now a lot of um outlets and podcasts and things that are sort of aimed at single women um whereas single men don't really have that um sorry I've completely forgotten your question well you know oh no I was just talking about how the experience is different for women and one of the things that illuminated me illuminated this for me was the fact that

One pet peeve of yours is being described as a career woman, and that's why you are single. Can you talk about why that is a pet peeve of yours? I've had it so many times. A relative of mine was telling a story about someone who was also career obsessed, but then she managed to find somebody in her, I don't know, late 30s and had a baby and

And even peers, you know, someone called me a career girl. And we just don't say career man. We never say that. Nobody's ever called a career man.

And so that's why it really bugs me because I also have worked for some amazing women who've been my bosses. So they're obviously doing extremely well in their careers and they've got families and husbands or wives. So that just doesn't make any sense to me. But people have said, you know, oh, she's single because she's focused on her career more.

And I just find it really irritating because I think I focus on my career in a normal, healthy way, not in an unhealthy way. But there's that judgment and shame because I'm a woman and, you know, having a career still, you know, seen as that's seen as the reason why fertility rates are dropping everywhere is because women are focused on their careers. You know, actually, it's either they can't find the right person to have a baby with or, you know,

And they can't afford to have one because the cost of living is so high, in my opinion. Let me go to call a Brianna in Oakland. Hi, Brianna. You're on. Hi. Thank you for having me. I would like to just make some comments about the freedom that being single gives a woman. Oh, did we lose you there, Brianna? It sounds like we must have gotten disconnected. Yeah.

This listener. Yeah. I mean, I only heard a little bit, but I think she makes a great point. Yeah.

You know, sometimes when, you know, people are talking about marriages, a lot of it is for women. It's them discussing how much they have to do around the house still. It's still not equal. You know, the housework, the childcare, it's still all on women's shoulders. You know, it's slowly changing. But that's like one of the biggest things. You know, my sister, when she's feeling bad about being single, she'll go on this website called Mumsnet and read about these women who feel like they've got

you know, an extra baby in the house because they've got to do everything. So to not have to do that, to be free from that, you know, is very liberating. I don't know if that was the point she was going to make. Well, luckily, Brianna's actually back. Brianna's back. So Brianna, you can finish your point. Sorry about that, Brianna. Hi, no problem. Yeah, so the...

I really liked what Natalie said, the previous caller. I agree with everything. That was spot on. And I want to hinge off of that and say that I've been married to men twice. And after my second marriage, I was married to an addict and my life was revolved around him. But I knew I had to get out of that. So I tried to figure out how I could financially support myself. So I started walking dogs.

Then when I made enough money to leave that situation, I just took off. And I now have just a thriving business caring for dogs. And I've developed this family, you know, chosen family who...

who just surround me with love and they, they celebrate my strengths and I've been able to explore who I truly am and who I'm meant to be in this world. And I would never have been able to do that if I had stayed in marriages and relationships that just sapped me of my own uniqueness and who I am today. Yeah. Who I am today at 54 is exactly myself. Yeah.

Well, Brianna, I love hearing that. And, and Nicola, I want to ask you about, so there was a professor of behavioral science, the London School of Economics, who wrote a book called Happily Ever After about happiness data surrounding relationships. And they found that the healthiest and happiest population subgroup

were women who had never married or had children, that they weren't just happy, they were happier than other groups of people. But I guess what was so interesting about this study was the reaction that that kind of joy and Brianna's story reminds me of it a little bit. God, can you talk about that?

Yeah, so he was speaking at a book festival and his comments got written up by The Guardian and the comments went viral and the reaction was so strong and so negative. It was basically as if people were personally offended by the findings that he'd done all this research about.

And, you know, someone actually sent him a photo of their wife smiling to prove him wrong that, you know, his wife's very happy and she was married. Um, and he just couldn't believe the reaction, you know, he was, he got some hate mail and people were just, you know, abusing him on, on Twitter. It was, it was when it was called Twitter. Um, and, uh,

And I just found that so fascinating. And he then wrote an article about the reaction and about how, yeah, people felt almost completely offended. And I sometimes experience that, you know, if you say, you know, think good things about being single, some people sort of bristle a little bit because they're

And I sort of explore this in the book a bit where, you know, it's because we all sort of want people to do what we're doing because it makes you feel better if everyone's doing what you're doing. And so when someone else is doing something completely different or outside the status quo, you know,

that can be a bit challenging for us, maybe. Yeah, it just illuminates another reason why I think especially for women and non-binary people who you focus on for this book, it's just that added layer too of if you are happy being independent, single, and everything else that you've decided that your life should be about that centers you, that that can also be seen as threatening in today's world. We're talking about...

the complexities, the beauties, the joys, and all of it when it comes to being single with Nicola Swanson, who's written a book called Single, Living a Complete Life on Your Own Terms. And you, our listeners, are sharing your own reflections of being single or what you miss about being single, how people treat you when you're single or the misconceptions that people can have and where you've landed. We'll have more with Nicola and with you listeners after the break. I'm Mina Kim. ♪

Turing with Tia is the quirky YouTube talk show where Tia Creighton is the host and all her guests are talking AI chatbots. Whether it's health and beauty, science and technology, pop culture, or current events, Turing with Tia delivers answers about everything. That's Turing with Tia.

That's T-U-R-I-N-G, Turing with Tia, a funny and fascinating way to experience artificial intelligence. Only on YouTube at Turing with Tia. Support for KQED Podcasts comes from Star One Credit Union, now offering real-time money movement with instant pay. Make transfers and payments instantly between financial institutions, online or through Star One's mobile app. Star One Credit Union, in your best interest.

You're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Listeners, what do you or did you like about being single? What do you dislike? Have you noticed your relationship status affecting how people treat you or that people have a lot of misconceptions about being single? You can tell us by emailing forum at kqed.org, finding us on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, and threads at KQED Forum by calling 866-733-6786.

866-733-6786. We're talking with Nicholas Slauson, who writes The Single Supplement, a newsletter for single women, a journalist and author. Her new book is Single, Living a Complete Life on Your Own Terms, which just came out yesterday in the U.S. And let me go to caller Shay in El Cerrito. Hi, Shay, you're on.

Hi, thanks. Yeah, I just wanted to say that ever since I was a kid, I knew I wanted to be a mom but not a wife. I even turned down some or ruined some great relationships because they were ready to get married and I wasn't. And now I'm a solo parent, six years. My boy is autistic and he has high support things and I find myself, you know, very isolated. The reason why I never wanted to be in a relationship

a marriage before is because I didn't like the idea of being isolated. I wanted a bigger community. I felt like even being in a relationship would sometimes feel pretty isolating. Um, but now I'm already in that. Um, uh, however, I find myself still not wanting to date because he takes, I don't have the energy to give to anybody else. You know, um, if, uh,

guy came along and was like, oh, I want to give all my energy into raising, like this is my passion and had a similar pedagogy as me because I don't want to argue with somebody about how to really support and raise an autistic person in this world. I'd be like, awesome, let's do it. But I just feel like

It's been really hard to make or find that community, even though that's my passion. I feel like, you know, a lot of that pressure that we feel being single is, you know, obviously steeped in patriarchy and white supremacy and colonialism. This stems from a deep fear of, you know, being alone and doing it on our own where we are intertwined.

interdependent. We need each other. But if we lived in a society that was more community-based and not so driven on, you know, commercialism and these putting money into these few, you know, men's pockets, I think we would be feeling a whole different kind of thing. And it's still my passion. It's not my passion to find a partner. It's still my passion to create that kind of world. And I just wanted to add that. Oh, Shay, I'm so glad you added that. Thank you. Yeah.

Nicholas who writes the author hasn't so far addressed being single with children. What are her thoughts? Those single folks have different concerns. Yes. Um,

Shay, thank you. Sue, thank you. And Nicola, I know that you have not just thoughts on this, but also personal experience of wanting to be a mom and not wanting to necessarily be partnered up or in a romantic relationship. Do you want to share your own experience? Yeah, sure. So I spent years being single and wishing I was a mom.

And it's a really painful place to be when you're approaching, you know, I was really, really struggling with it when I was approaching 35, which is when your fertility is meant to sort of fall off a cliff.

disappear completely and I really began to panic about it it was it was almost like the soundtrack of the of my whole life was how am I going to have a baby how am I going to have a baby and but at the same time I was feeling really good about being single and I didn't want to date just to find somebody to have a baby with because that felt really forced and

um also just really awkward like how how do you bring up you know when do you bring up that you you know do you want to be a dad um

you know, I just felt like it was too forced. And, um, you know, if I'd have been in a place where I did want a relationship, you know, I might've, I might've felt differently. Um, but it, it just felt like I would have just got with someone, anyone. Um, so I was looking into solo motherhood, um, with a sperm donor. Um, but the costs of that were really prohibitive for me. Um, I'm freelance and I just felt like I would have had to save, save up for years and years. And that would have been my fertility years. Um,

But luckily I had another idea, which was I met a lesbian couple who platonically co-parent with their gay friend.

And so that was the sort of idea in the back of my head because that worked out really well for them. And then during the pandemic, I met a gay guy called Tom and we quickly became really good friends. We actually bonded over the fact that all of our friends had kids and we didn't and we had no one to hang out with. So we became really close. And then

eventually I realized that he would make a really good dad and eventually I asked him whether he would want to be a dad and then eventually I finally asked him if he would consider platonically co-parenting with me and he said yes obviously we spent months and months discussing it and all the ways it could possibly go wrong but we're now parents of a 10 month old baby girl and

So yeah, I am actually a single mother. So I have direct experience of that, although it's very early days for me and I'm

Tom and I are actually housemates. So we're at the moment parenting completely 100% all of the time. Um, so it will only be in the future where we split our time and I experienced that. And, um, so that will be a whole new experience for me. Yeah. So yeah. When I was a parent, I've just ruined the end of the book. So, um,

Well, it sounds like this could definitely be a topic of another book. As I was preparing for this interview and looking you up, Nicola, there have been quite a few very recent pieces where you have shared a lot of details about what this process was like for you.

Yeah, I have, yeah.

really reflect on what was important and what I needed to do because you know I'm writing about how you shouldn't you know wait for your life wait for a partner for your life to start and I needed to take my own advice because the thing I wanted most was to be a mum and so I had to take my own advice and stop waiting and actually take action and so it was actually finishing the book I then

Ask Tom. And so the epilogue is when I'm pregnant. So yeah, it's literally only the last four or five pages of the book. But obviously, it is probably a really interesting thing that people are like, wow, that's amazing. Let me read a few more comments. We've got so many. Madeline writes, I'm in my early 60s. I'm a very independent person and certainly enjoy parts of the singleness, but miss the intimacy, closeness and fun of a partnership. I hope to someday have that

balance again, you know, hearing Madeline talk about balance. I'm thinking about the point that you make that, you know, in modern society, particularly in the West, that we have, we do have to balance our relationships and nurture lots of different types of relationships in our lives. I think Shay was speaking to this too, because as you were describing earlier, we are kind of programmed to focus on finding our soulmate and putting everything into that relationship as well. And so I like that, that reminder. Yeah.

Yeah, it's beautiful. From Madeline. Let me go to Tony in San Bernardino. Hi, Tony, you're on. Hello, my name is Tony, and thank you for having me. I did want to mention that I did spend a long time myself alone before I ever did get married. My first marriage was when I was 33 years old, and that lasted for—we were together for 17 years, married for 14 and a half.

And we were the best of friends. We were very fortunate and blessed to do everything together. We went to school together. We went to bars together. We traveled together. And we had wonderful experiences all around the world and with each other. And I do miss that. I miss it kind of a lot.

because we were in a very tight, close-knit partnership. And so while there's absolutely nothing wrong with being single and one is a whole number, two is also a whole number, and I miss that. So thank you for having me. Thank you, Tony, for sharing that and for being so candid about that. That was something else I wanted to talk with you about, Niccolo, which is

Just what has been the effect of being so honest about being single, first of all, and being really clear about what it comes with, which is both, you know, the moments of feeling, you know, exhilarated by it and the moments also of feeling quite beaten down by it at times.

Yeah, I mean, I still can't believe sometimes that I talk so openly about being single because just, you know, maybe six years ago, it was the last thing I would ever want to write about. But I found that as soon as I started writing about being single and being quite vulnerable in my writing and being really honest, it meant that people were...

it was an invitation for them to be candid and honest, like, you know, the previous caller. And I just think that's so powerful because that helps make people feel less alone. But, you know, it has come with its downsides as well, because sometimes I've, you know, talked or written about, you know,

feeling left behind in my friendships, for example. And when I did a podcast once about wanting to be a mom and how all my friends had babies, I had to actually lose some friends when I spoke about that. Even though I felt like I was, you know, very respectful and I very honest, but not, you know, not in a negative way about them. But people find it really challenging sometimes when you're honest and

and really open. Um, but the payoff is that, you know, people will write to me and tell me things and they'll, you know, they'll say some people, someone said that they'd never heard anyone speaking about being single before, before I did. Um, and I just think that's so powerful. All the stories we've heard tonight, uh, today, sorry. Um, it's night in London. Yeah.

you know, they're going to make people listening feel less alone, even if they didn't call in. And I just think that's so powerful. So, and also just starting to write, think about being single and not, not being afraid of it and not, you know, being ashamed of it has also just meant that I'm now much more confident and I don't feel ashamed anymore. And that's just so great as well. So it's been, you know, a mixed bag, but overall really positive.

This is Ner...

Grace writes on Discord, as someone who's never really dipped their toes into the dating pool, I felt the pressure from friends or family that I should be dating, but I've just never felt the need to date. At the same time, I fear that if I said this to my social groups, I'll be secretly labeled as weird or defective. They might think that there's something inherently wrong in choosing not to be in a relationship. We're talking about being single. And let me remind listeners, you are listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Let me go to caller Shelly in San Francisco. Hi, Shelly. Thanks for waiting. You're on.

Hi. Yeah, I very consciously and I feel productively made a decision 15, 20 years ago to be single. And a lot of it was just I had so much angst and loneliness and I spent so much of my vital energy being

you know, just grieving over this thing that wasn't happening or when it was and wasn't the right person, et cetera, et cetera. We all know the story. And, you know, so I just...

decided that I'll never say never and something might come along with me in the universe. But, you know, I'm I'm I've been living this life that I focus my energies on the things that bring me joy. And I do a lot of community work. Yeah. And I haven't regretted it one bit. You know, Sally, thanks. Glad to hear it. This is not on Discord rights.

My long-term relationship ended in October of 2022, and I've not felt like having another. I do worry about getting older alone, but my freedom, creativity, and self-discovery could not happen with a partner. Getting older alone, dying alone, is that something that you have heard as a salient fear among people who are single? And if so, how have you thought about that, Nicola? Yeah.

Yeah, that is something that comes up a lot in the community that I run. I've got a Facebook community that's sort of associated with the newsletter. And it's quite a painful topic for some people. Some people have had to have quite honest and painful conversations with family members, you know, with nieces and nephews, for example. There are people who are, you know,

looking into retirement villages paying in paying a lot more into pensions to make sure they're okay um and and life insurance and things like that and it is something that people do worry about and they also feel like they don't want to be a burden and it's it's a really hard thing because you've got to have those conversations with people so they know what you want and

um as you're getting older and you might need you know you might need somebody to be to be the person making decisions about your health care for example um so yeah those are those are conversations that come up quite a lot um but that but some people in the community will say you know actually this is more about society as a whole and how we look after the older people rather than necessarily being about being single um

And it's about, you know, it brings back to you, I think, what one of the callers talked about, which was about community and how we've lost that.

And we've lost that feeling of like a village looking after each other, which, yeah, it doesn't really matter whether you've got, you know, you're in a relationship or not, because if you were if we had that kind of community village feel, then we'd all look after each other anyway. And also because, you know, lots of us will end up.

uh, single because, you know, it's not like the notebook where people die at the same time. Um, sadly. So, so yeah, these are really difficult conversations, but I think that's quite a universal thing actually. Yeah. I think your point about community is so true. It does. And it has come up so much over the course of this conversation because you're absolutely right. It's not like being partnered as a guarantee that you will not die alone and that, um,

It really does sound like through and through the through line has been having a strong community is really the most important for how those, you know, experiences happen for you.

in life. This is Naraitz. As a serial monogamist jumping from one long relationship into another, I thought something was wrong with me and that I wasn't comfortable with myself. But after what I call the solitude experiment, I came to realize that I choose relationships where I have a lot of independence. I've traveled the world and in everything I've wanted to, I realized that I am a strong and confident woman who enjoys stable partnerships, and that's okay.

I love that. That's what I'm hoping for as well in the future. You know, Valentine's Day is coming up and I'm wondering, is that day important to you? And how do you spend it if it is? Well, I used to just completely ignore it, to be honest, and not really, you know, I'd sort of roll my eyes if I saw all of the red stuff.

walls of red that you see in shops and stores but actually a colleague of mine changed my mind she was long-term single and she absolutely loved Valentine's Day she'd come in dressed in red or pink she'd give you know she'd make treats for everyone and she just felt like it was a day to celebrate love in all its forms and not just romantic love and she sort of took it back and so since then I've

I've embraced it a little bit more. I always buy my friend's little daughter like a really cute Valentine's Day card and say happy Valentine's Day to my friends. So yeah, it has shifted because my friend made me think differently about it. But then there's also Galentine's Day, which is tomorrow. And that's the day that it was started on parks and recreations, but it's actually sort of

become a real life thing where people celebrate their friends instead of romantic love so that's nice as well

Well, Nicola, it's really been a pleasure having you on. Thank you so much for talking with us. Oh, thanks so much for having me. It's been amazing. Nicola Slauson's new book is Single, Living a Complete Life on Your Own Terms. So grateful to you, our listeners, for sharing your experiences so candidly and also so grateful to Caroline Smith for producing today's segment. You've been listening to Forum. I'm Nina Kim. Don't need such a

Don't need you, let's hang out. Funds for the production of Forum are provided by the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, the Generosity Foundation, and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

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