Bain Capital’s David Gross on global opportunities and private equity’s evolution
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Welcome to another episode of Goldman Sachs Exchange's Great Investors. I'm Alison Mass, Chairman of Investment Banking in Goldman Sachs' Global Banking and Markets, and your host for today's episode. I'm thrilled to be joined by David Gross, co-managing partner of Bain Capital. Bain Capital is one of the most prominent private investment firms in existence, with about $185 billion in assets under management.

David is a founding member of Bain Capital's Asia business, and he's been the driving force behind some of the largest and most consequential private investments in Asia. I'm excited to hear David's views about the global market for private investment. So David, thank you for joining us. Great to be here. Thanks for having me, Alison. So we are picking a very interesting time to record this podcast.

There are real questions about the outlook for the global economy, which provides an investment firm like yours, like Bain Capital, which has a global portfolio, a unique perspective. So before we get into that, I'd love to spend some time on your views about the macro landscape globally. And I'll put you on the spot and ask you, are there countries or asset classes that you think are particularly well situated or particularly at risk in this very moment?

Sure. I mean, the answer is yes. We continue to think a lot of sectors of the United States are going to have significant tailwinds because there's been a lot of savings, a lot of capacity to spend, significant government intervention in the economy to drive stimulus that will be a positive for manufacturing businesses.

and other ways that the United States is set up to actually perform quite well in terms of energy prices, and obviously, the really strong position in technology. It's sector by sector, but this notion that the US sits in a pretty good place from a geopolitical perspective, energy, inherent growth is still there. We're very bullish on Japan. Japan is a large market that's taken a long time to develop, but we're

starting to finally see the convergence of forces that are going to turn this into a really big buyout market, but a market for really all the asset classes in which we participate.

And you will see some pockets in Europe that are going to see some interesting trends. I mean, Germany has had a really tremendous set of changes that we've seen really up against a lot of pressures. You combine that with large German corporates that have big portfolios and there'll be, I think, a wave of divestitures, export facing businesses that have faced some pressure that will also need some new partners.

So it might be a little bit contrarian, but some of the tougher European economies now from a price value perspective are going to start to look pretty interesting.

So, you know, you talk about Asia and I've been working with you and with Bain for over 20 years. And I remember having conversations with you in the mid 2000s about Asia and which countries that you wanted to plant your flag in and where we saw opportunities. And we compared a lot of really interesting notes back then. But you were one of the first private equity firms to really establish a presence there.

And you notably started your career in Japan where the firm has been doing business for almost 20 years now, right? Yes. So before we dive into your career in Asia, can you talk about the drivers behind the globalization of private equity and alternative investments more generally?

So, as you know, this was a very US-centric business. Part of it was just that's where the funding and the financial innovation started, but also this notion that private equity could be a useful tool in terms of corporate governance, in terms of driving efficiency at companies with a long-term focus, the ability to add value, a low cost of capital was a unique phenomenon to the United States.

And it's not like that doesn't apply to Europe and Asia, but there were other constraints there just in terms of the process of gaining corporate control and making investments. But probably more importantly, just the cultural acceptance. The notion that an outside party could come in with ownership, governance, and capital

and do something that was good, help businesses. And that was a process that really had to be proven in each of these geographies, whether it's places like the UK and Germany, or whether it's places like Japan. And so we started early because we knew there was a lot of

spade work that had to be done. I mean, that you really had to prove this by changing businesses, making an impact, getting them growing again. And there was some skepticism, I would say, in the early days for sure. And then there's cultural aspects in terms of just you need to have deep teams in each of these geographies. We talk about being global, but it's really about being local and having people you can trust to have great relationships and becoming part of the cultural fabric. And all that takes a lot of time.

We needed to start early, we needed to make big long-term investments, and we needed to let the process play out in terms of taking a US Western approach and adapting it for the local conditions, explaining it and educating all the market participants, whether it's the local banks or management teams, that this would be something that would be good for the economies.

And you also had to have staying power because I think you know better than anyone that so many of your "peer organizations" were in Japan, out of Japan, in Japan, out of Japan, and you've been consistently there for decades. So I do want to talk about Japan a little bit more, which is why is it a particularly appealing market for investors like Bain?

Well, I'd say one is the value equation is still very attractive. There are a lot of great Japanese businesses with good technologies that come from the R&D focus, the extremely high standards of education in the country, and those are all tremendous assets. But for various historical reasons, there hasn't been this pursuit of

productivity and efficiency. There've been some other reasons why industries have remained fragmented, not consolidated. We made an investment in a drugstore chain in Japan. And it's interesting to note that Japan is one of the big developed economies that doesn't have big national drugstore chains because it's been a pretty local family owned business type of contract.

And so, we saw some of these things in the United States, founder owned businesses, fragmentations, corporates have big portfolios that are core and non-core businesses. But in Japan, the process of moving that towards what we see in the United States was it just took longer.

And on top of that, I think people came to Japan and they left Japan. Back then the terminology was this passing over Japan, meaning you skipped over Japan and you went right to China. And it's a hard market to build relationships and it takes time and patience. And so because of that, you've got really great opportunity, but not as many

competitors pursuing that opportunity. That's changing a bit right now. It's really changing now. But that equation was very interesting. So you could invest in businesses, and I'd say good value relative to the current earnings, but most importantly, relative to the potential earnings by having a hands-on approach. And that's the bread and butter of what we had always done at Bain Capital, going back to the early days in the United States. We had this

consulting value-addition-oriented approach with a lot of capabilities around that. And we built that all up in Japan so that we could come in there and not just say, "Hey, we're going to hire a management team and set a new plan," but we're going to jump in there with our people hand in hand and help bring some of these other practices that we had learned through 40 years of investing in different vertical industries

And that then accelerated the process of change at the companies. And if you're buying things at relatively good prices with attractive capital structures, and you can get declining businesses or flat businesses to grow even 3%, 4% with some margin improvement, it can lead to really interesting returns. So it's really that economic proposition that was very attractive to us.

So one region we haven't talked about yet is India. And for a long time, there's been a great deal of enthusiasm about India among global investors. Favorable growth dynamics, supportive policies for business and a growing middle class are seen as important catalysts. Do you share that enthusiasm?

Yes, we share the enthusiasm. We've been interested in advocates of India for many years. Before, I think everything had kind of come together. It always had this promise.

of a large economy, a growing middle class, really positive demographics, and just extremely low penetration in almost any product category you would look at. But the hope had not always been fulfilled because the markets were volatile. When there was a global disruption, the money would kind of go out of India, the market would not be as reliable. And so you saw issues with just making investments, not being able to exit them, were the classic issues you heard about India.

But we loved the IP, the just strong intellectual capability of managing teams, management capabilities, the aspirations that India Cummings had to not just be leaders in their industries, but be global. And so therefore they wanted to work with global private equity firms who could bring the best benchmark globally, not just in India to them.

And so we liked it because again, it had this growth opportunity, like in Japan, but also this fit with our model. And now you're seeing some of the other macro issues kind of get solved one by one. First of all, you have stable government. The Modi government has had a clear strategy that they've been able to execute because they've stayed in office for quite a long period of time.

Secondly, the markets have just matured. There's more depth in the capital markets. There's more domestic capital that's circulating. You don't have this issue of kind of hot money coming in and out, and that helps with exits

And the other big thing that's changed is you can gain control of companies. It used to be the fact that first generation Indian owners didn't want to turn over ownership of the company. And so they're mostly minority deals. But now you see a change. And so you've got more control over your destiny, more levers we can bring to the table in terms of value creation to create good outcomes. So we always liked it. There were some missing pieces. And now a lot of that's coming together to make it really interesting.

So, we've spent some time talking about your macro views, which is fitting because you led the creation of Bain Capital's macro team. So, what role does macroeconomic analysis play in Bain Capital's investment decisions and how does that macro team contribute today? Sure. So, we had always thought about ourselves as the opposite of macro investors, particularly at Bain Capital where we were extremely analytical and we take these bottoms up views of industries and companies.

And I think we did fail to recognize that we're all macro investors, right? There's so many exposures that can overwhelm certain things you may really like as a concrete driver of a company that you have to factor into your business.

So, one is just a recognition of that. The second is we don't think of ourselves at all as momentum investors. We are fundamental investors and fundamental investment means you're doing deep research and doing a lot of work. And again, we didn't think you could do that in the macro area, but when you dig under the covers a bit, you can take a very analytical approach. You can build a macro capability. And we found that we were actually uniquely positioned to do that because we have all these portfolio companies

all this breadth and asset classes, whether it's the credit markets, in the real estate markets, in the life sciences markets, that we've got incredibly unique and proprietary data. So the first step was to say, how do we bring all that data together, combined with some third party intelligence to get a better view of what's coming around the corner? Not so much to predict the future. I don't think macro is about predicting. It's

It's about getting a little bit ahead of the curve and creating better scenarios about, okay, if X, Y, Z happens, how will that affect the business? And what are the things that we could be doing now to better position ourselves around that? And that's now become an embedded part of all the deals we do. But the second more interesting part is really investing behind macro opportunity, which is what I was mentioning in terms of thematics.

And so we've taken to the next level of getting all of our business units together with outside experts around certain macro themes that are going to power those things we want to invest behind. Take immigration and migration patterns, a big driver of housing development in certain countries and supply demand gaps that create some really interesting opportunities. Also a big driver of outsourcing trends.

And so that's an example of tying some of these macro insights about what's happening in each country down to some investable themes. Healthcare, an incredible issue with healthcare efficiency and even the supply of healthcare. And this has led to a lot of thinking cross business unit around healthcare IT and how we can bring that technology into healthcare organizations to offset pressures from reduced funding and from payer and provider pressures that you see.

So, kind of thinking about macro as this is another capability we should have. It's consistent with being a fundamental investor. Marrying it with all the good micro stuff we do can create a lot of opportunity. Yeah, it's smart to do. I mean, you have a global portfolio, so you do have a unique perspective. And I know some of your partners call it like scenario analysis. Yes. You know, a confluence of things happening and how is it going to impact each of your businesses and regions?

So let's talk about private equity in general for a minute. There have been a lot of questions about how private equity firms are managing to return capital to LPs in this environment. I think last year was maybe the lowest percentage in 10 years that was returned. So how have you been thinking about that and how has it impacted your investment thesis, your exits, and your conversations with your LPs?

So it's an important topic. We get asked a lot. We try to put it into some industry context, which is, this has been a cyclical industry. We've seen four or five big super cycles over the last four decades we've been in business. And we just came out of a really big one. So post-COVID, you saw a peak velocity that I think the peak in 21 was maybe two and a half times larger than the last peak. And generally speaking, after those peaks,

you see lower years in terms of both deployment and liquidity. And so some of it's just the math that you had a big, very big deployment year to increase the base. And we're still kind of early in the recovery cycle there. So my first message would be, I'm not sure this has really played out. I think it's not surprising to see some low percentage years of distributions versus asset value. And so we're kind of in that phase. The second is that we really didn't

experience a recession. Typically after these big peak velocity periods, it's been followed like the global financial crisis or the dot-com bust by a recession. And capital structures were pretty favorable. So I think the industry has had more time and cushion to be able to play this process out. So they haven't really been forced to sell. And so this gap between buyers and sellers

hasn't really come to head just yet. And I think that's probably positive relative to other cycles and the industry's ability to digest it. Also recall, a lot of that peak velocity was in technology. I think 50, 60% of the deployment in 2020 was in technology businesses. And those businesses, many who invested a lot in technology, believe that there's still a lot of opportunity to grow. And so combined with the patient capital structures, you'll be able to grow out of it.

So, I think we haven't seen exactly. I know there's a lot of reaction to the absolute numbers, but there's still some steps that we're going to see. We took a bit of a different approach to it. We were much more value focused in that last super cycle we did to technology investing, but we were pretty careful on the price growth metric. We were very focused on multiple contraction. We were concerned about low interest rates and that when interest rates go up, you're going to see a multiple impact.

And that's contributed a lot to our ability to get pretty steady realizations as we're not really underwater from a multiple perspective. And we've added a lot of value to these businesses, more value-oriented businesses that we've grown in the last couple of years.

So, for instance, one of the key metrics that we track is what we call our distribution yield, which is the amount of realizations that we have as the numerator divided by our total net asset value. So really it's the percentage of your overall funds that you're monetizing in any given year. And we have funds that invest over a four or five year period and may, you know,

you know, liquidate over another four or five years after that. So last year, our distribution yield, which is our realizations divided by our NAV, was north of 30% in North America. And so to have 30% or roughly one third that you're monetizing in a year is a really significant statistic and something that I think is significantly in excess of where the industry is today. Yeah, I was going to say it's a good number, both absolute and relative to the industry. Yeah.

I think it's due to the fact that we didn't go too long on the higher price tech related businesses. We thought about the right multiple to be paying in that really elevated cycle period. And I think we've been able to be quite

good at adding some value. So you actually have real earnings growth coming through that cycle. The industry is going to have to work this out, but listen, we've seen it. We've heard a lot of forecasts of the end of the golden age of private equity, and there's always been some innovations that have helped go the other way. Yeah. Every eight to 10 years, the same article comes out. Exactly. Right. It's the end of the golden age.

So Bain Capital originated from the consulting firm, Bain & Company. And through my work with you and your partner, certain traits like operational excellence, value creation and technology, just to name a few, remain central to your identity. So how has that model evolved over the years?

Sure. Well, it's- And so were you a Bain & Company person? I was. I was there for a couple of years and I think that's similar to a lot of folks at Bain Capital. There's some part of their career where they spend, could be Bain, it could be McKinsey or others. But yes, it's an important part of the DNA. It has helped us a lot with this value creation model, which is something we're really proud of. I think we were pioneers of it. But the reality is others have also said, "Hey, that's an interesting model."

And they have value creation capabilities. So for us, it's really been about how do you continue to build the next and the next legs of it? One of the ways to do it is just scale. We have 130 people across our platform who are dedicated to value creation across our business units. And there's a lot of collaboration around knowledge and around capabilities and best practices that we're sharing. That's a really powerful aspect of what we're doing. We're trying to codify that and energize that even more. The second is building more specialist capabilities. So we have very deep

teams in go-to-market strategy, in procurement strategy, in IT systems, and of course, in technology and AI, which is really the third big leg, which is there's an enormous opportunity to drive technology deployment into our companies. AI is a big one, but it's not just AI. It's data science, it's robotics, it's machine learning.

Depending on the industry segment and the type of use case, there's a different technology. But our ability to, at the firm level, invest in being at the forefront, find use cases that we can actually field test in our companies, see what works, see what doesn't. And then to bring those to the other companies, this is a huge potential source of competitive advantage we have. And we can bring to this something unique, which is we're one of the few multi-asset class companies

players that has or still has a venture capital business. And we love being in the venture business. We think it's a great standalone business to be in.

But it contributes a lot to the rest of the platform, both in helping identify the newer disruptive technologies. So if you're investing in a late-stage buyout deal, you'll understand the winners and losers technologically. But we're at the forefront of investing in AI companies, in machine learning companies, data science companies that give us this view of what is working and what's not working that we think will help our platform. And that's the next big leg for us in value creation.

So let's rewind the clock. Tell us about your career path. I asked you whether you were at Bain & Company, but how did you ultimately get into finance, private equity, and how did you initially come to focus on Asia?

Right. So I think the Asia thing came first, depending on how far back you go. But let's just take after I graduated from undergraduate. A mentor said, hey, why don't you try going to Japan? And I had never been to Japan. But you were here in university in the United States. In the United States, yes. And I grew up in Ohio and upstate New York. So I've never been that far away. And I did it a little bit on a whim. And I got very interested in the culture. I mean, this was the late 80s. And this is when

Japan was the big economic challenge in the United States. So I was also kind of fascinated as an economic student in the differences between these two systems. And that was a great experience and incredibly

perspective, enhancing and widening. And so I worked in Japan for a Japanese company in Tokyo for four years. Then I came back to the United States, went to business school, and that's when I joined Bain & Company. And I got into private equity and finance really from more that angle of I loved what they did at Bain & Company, but this notion that Bain Capital had really pioneered, which was taking that analytical approach and applying it to investing in and driving value in companies.

It seemed fascinating to me. So I think I got into the finance industry in a non-finance kind of way, and then it went on from there. It was only later that we then decided to open up the business in Japan. When I joined Bain Capital, it was pretty much a US business. We were really just getting Europe going. So there was no Bain Capital Asia. I got involved in that a few years later.

Yeah. When did you actually start? 2005. Yeah. I remember that. I literally remember the meetings with your partners who were coming to talk to other financial institutions just to get their macro views. And you all were very helpful because obviously Goldman's incredibly long heritage and track record in Japan was not only very impressive and a great model for us to understand and really try to replicate in many ways, but you were a terrific partner as well. Yeah. I remember those discussions.

So continuing on with your career, last year you were asked to become co-managing partner at Bain Capital. So can you talk a little bit about your new role and how you have adapted to it?

So, first of all, it's an honor and a privilege to have the opportunity to do this for the firm I love. I'm also thrilled to be partnering with my co-managing partner, John Connaughton, and our chairman, Jonathan Levine, who have been long-term mentors. And it's a team effort for us to think about how we take the firm to the next level.

We are, at heart, a private partnership that is looking to drive the growth and value and develop the careers of our close to 2,000 people and 200 partners.

And so a lot of what we're doing at the co-managing partner role is to try to ensure that this broad 12 business unit business we've created works really well together. It's driving these synergies at the platform level, at the intersection of business units.

identifying some areas that we say, hey, this is a really great growth opportunity. It may involve two different businesses. How do we collaborate together to create something that's enhancing for the firm? Taking something that could be complexity and making sure that we're turning that into a real platform advantage. I see that as the overarching role. And it's not dissimilar from what I did in Asia. When we went to Asia, we went to Asia in a multi-asset class.

So, we started with private equity, but pretty soon we had our direct lending business, specialist situations business, now I mentioned life sciences, and we went to market as Bain Capital in a cross-platform way. And there's a lot of work to try to get all that to come together. And that's kind of where our Bain Capital and trying to leverage all these opportunities to make sure it's a creative growth and that we're creating new career opportunity lanes

that were motivating and exciting the next generation of leaders, I'd say is the other really big part of this job.

Yeah, Bain has a very special and unique culture. And I'd love to hear you talk about the culture you inherited at Bain and what it means to you and how you're going to carry that forward. So, well, it's our greatest asset for sure. I mean, in many ways we admire and we've always revered the Goldman Sachs culture because for a lot of years, Goldman Sachs was a private partnership. It still obviously has that ethos.

And culture is so critical. I mean, you talk to Goldman Sachs folks who've worked there, have been on to other things, and so many of the attributes of combining the incredible financial acumen with a collaborative approach and a focus on people, we try to really create that at Bain Capital. And I've inherited that. And the key though, is that as we grow, and you've

you become bigger and become more global. How do you ensure that doesn't dilute over time? And that has a lot to do with kind of growing, but keeping it small to making sure that we're operating at the vertical level and the country level and the business unit level in a way where people feel that they have mentorship.

and sponsorship of what they're doing, that we're still keeping that small entrepreneurial company feel. While we're large, it requires a lot of communication and affiliation. So I think the core culture is very much there. The DNA is there. But there's a lot more you have to do every year to maintain that and even to enhance that.

And part of the culture likely stems from the fact that you're still privately held and so many of your peers are no longer privately held. So why did the partnership choose to remain private? So we started in private equity world. We kind of looked just the same as pretty much all of our competitors. And now we're seeing this stratification in the industry along with all the growth.

And I think where people have ended up depends a lot, I think, on their strategic choices. I mean, we definitely feel that the strategy should come first and then your corporate form would come second. And for us, the strategic choices are really critical. One, we want to have

very strong alignment, both internally with our people, but also with our investors. And we have incredibly strong investors, our limited partners, that have been with us for many years, and we want to be 100% aligned with those investors. Second is we really want the freedom and the flexibility to choose the businesses that we want to be in based on how consistent they are with this approach we're taking of trying to generate premium performance in these alpha-oriented segments, that we can do that with

these deep capabilities. And we don't want that to be excessively driven by, okay, there's a high fee related revenue component to it, which is trading at this. And so we need to shift our strategy in this direction versus that direction. We want to really determine what's the best mix of what's going to drive equity value. And third, and maybe most important, is we didn't want to sell the equity. We're a broadly held private partnership. There's really no one that a big owner who needed to monetize their stake

And we wanted to keep the equity for future generations. And we think that over the long run, that's going to be really critical to retaining the next generation of talent is that you do own all your equity. That can be something that folks aspire to over time as they're growing their careers and adding value. And so the corporate form there has a real impact on the talent retention in the core economic model. And we wanted to kind of control our destiny there.

Yeah, and the management succession has been very smooth from Mitt Romney, right, through the next generations, and a great role model for your industry. Yes, for sure. So at the same time you took on the new role last summer, you had another new responsibility with a new baby in your family. So congratulations. Thank you. So how is that balance going?

It's great in a word. I have six children in total, so I have a little bit of experience. That's a lot of experience. It's been great.

key success factor is just like I have a co-managing partner, I have an important co at home who does epic things to make it all work. So, no, it's been a great experience. You're also personally a big supporter of music and music education.

You've served on the board of the Berklee College of Music. Why is music important to you? Are you a musician? I play musical instruments, but I'm afraid to go on record here saying I'm a musician, especially the musicians at Berklee are way up there. But I love music is the short answer. It's a musician that does amazing things both in terms of

supporting music development and the arts and just the incredible high caliber. But it's also a great institution in terms of music as a vehicle to take folks who are not even in the education system into the education system and from there to really interesting careers and they do a lot of innovative things.

And it's a way to spend some interesting time on things that are not, you know, Bain Capital and this industry, that's a lot of fun. So, can't be happier. It's a great institution I'd encourage people to follow and look into. Yeah. I always say keeping your interests outside of work gives you longevity in this business. And so, you have other things to think about other than the finance. Yes, yes. You definitely need a bit of that. Right. So, when you speak to younger people entering the financial industry today, what advice do you give them?

We talked about the growth trends and I think the really good side of the story is despite all the growth that's happened, we're still at the very early innings here in the growth of alternative assets. I mean, most of the metrics you look at, private equity, penetration, credit, these new sources of the wealth channels and insurance.

are in the five to 10% penetration zip code. So if this is a career you want to get into, it's a growth industry, which is always a positive thing. But listen, I tell folks the same thing I tell my kids, which is,

You got to follow your passion. You have to love it. You don't want to get into this industry because of growth or the economics and things like that. Those are actually the wrong, second one's the wrong reason to do it. It's because you love it or you think you might love it and it's dynamic. And we're in an era now where it's easier to change your career and to acquire new knowledge over time.

And so you want to follow the passions and not feel too much pressure to do something that maybe is expected of you versus what you really want to do. So, you know, listen, a great industry to get into, but not for everyone. That's good advice. All right. So we like to end these sessions with a lightning round. So we're going to run through a couple of questions, just get a very quick answer. Sure. So what was your first investment?

Our very first investment was a company called US Inter Networking, which was kind of like a data center type business. Before your time. This was, yes. The only interesting thing here was it was the first deal we did after 9/11, but it was I think 18 months when there were no deals done because we weren't sure what was happening to the world, but memorable in that way. And what would you say your greatest strength as an investor is?

I would say it's working really hard to overcome your own biases, your own confirmation bias, which is a very powerful force because it's something that has served you well in the past.

But keeping an open mind as long as possible to new information that might change your view is really critical in this business. Because as much as we look at and think about patterns and history, each situation is different in very nuanced ways. And so not reacting too much based on your initial conceptions I think is really key to successful investing. So what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Probably it was that person who said, why don't you go try to spend some time in Japan? I don't think I would have come upon it another way. And it changed the trajectory of my life personally, but also in terms of the next advice, my mentor and former boss at Bank Capital, Paul Edgerly, came to me and said, why don't you go start the Japan business? Which at that time there was no business, so it didn't sound like a great idea, but I took his advice and I did that and that turned out to be a fun thing. Great advice.

And finally, what are you most excited about in the world right now? I know we're in a very tumultuous moment from a geopolitical point of view, but what excites you the most? Yeah. Listen, I think it's for sure what's happening in the world of technology, and I'll broaden that to include biotech and life sciences. I mean, it's stunning, the pace of change and a lot of things that

were talked about in futuristic novels that even five, 10 years ago, we kind of said, "Wow, I think that might happen, but I don't think I'll be alive for it."

I think I actually knock on wood will be. Some of these- Flying cars. Some of these amazing things are around the corner. And we had a technology person come in and show us some visions of the most advanced robotics now and robots. And one of them was doing this triple backflip and then went over and was cracking eggs. Wow. And you looked at that and said, "Wow, that's

really close to something that could dramatically change work, home, and all these things. And again, we talked a lot about AI, but in so many areas of dramatic changes that it's a little scary, obviously, but it is pretty exciting.

All right. Well, David, thank you so much for joining me today. This was a really fun discussion. Great. Thank you so much. It's been fun. And thank you all for listening to this episode of Goldman Sachs Exchange's Great Investors, which was recorded on March 12th, 2025. I'm Alison Mass. If you enjoyed the show, we hope you'll follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, and leave us a rating and a comment.

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