Episode 1615 - Demi Moore
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You can challenge yourself anywhere with Peloton's all-access membership. Work out at home or take your favorite classes on the go and at the gym with the Peloton app. Find your push. Find your power with Peloton at onepeloton.com. All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. How's everybody doing? How are you holding up? Are you, are you, uh,

Are you wringing your hands? Are you flipping through your phone constantly? Are you exacerbating your dread, despair, and hopelessness?

every two minutes by clicking on your newsfeed? Are you still thinking that this is going to pass or that this is a temporary thing? What are you doing? Are you eating more? Are you exercising more? Are you laying in your bed just wondering what the point of it all is? What's going on? Where are you at with it? Are you just kind of blindly going through your day like nothing's going on? Hey, you know,

Don't knock full-scale denial in times of trauma and crisis. You know what I mean? There'll be time to peel that shit back later, right? I don't, again, I don't know how long I'm going to open these shows like this, but at some point...

You're going to have to accept the authoritarian dread that is going to be the foundation of our national culture. And that's just that's where we're at. I guess people can do it in other countries. They have to. It happens. It's part of people's lives all over the world. Hungary. There you go. Check in with your pals in Hungary and see how they dealt with it.

Reach out to the Hungarians and ask them, what were the first few months like for you before you realized that there's no more democracy and whatever they're calling it is not that. And it's kind of a completely rigged system by a bunch of unfuckable hate nerds and grifters and cyber fucking weirdos. Huh? Techno fucks.

But yeah, so I don't know. I'm not feeling great, but I am trying to integrate and accept the authoritarian foundation that's unfolding. And you try to do what you can in your life. Get out there. Get out there with the people.

Come on, get out there, talk to others, make little groups, figure out what you can do in your neighborhood. But get off your fucking phone. Quit texting people. Try to get some face time with some human beings. Check in on what it feels like to be part of an actual community outside of your family or your bed or your cats. Protest, protest, protest.

Rise up, get out there. Even if you feel like it's futile, the exercise of it is something that you need to do. I mean, you kind of got to do it. I mean, it's sort of one of the necessary components of being a free people. I'd like to believe that we're still a free people.

It's a bit of dread, but I'd like to believe we're still a free people. But you can go to indivisible.org. I think they've got a way you can search for protests, town meetings, other civic action. I'm going to get out there. I'm going to get out there. I do my own singular protests here and on stage, but I want to be with the people, feeling the people's presence, the weight and thrust and fucking energy of protest.

An angry community event. All right. You can do that. You should do that. I should do it. So look, today on the show, Demi Moore is here. And who doesn't love Demi Moore?

What a great fucking actress. What an interesting person. What a charismatic being. Her performance in the film The Substance won her a Golden Globe and a few critics awards. She's nominated for the SAG Award, the BAFTA Award, and the Oscar for Best Actress about fucking time. Am I right?

Did you see that movie? I didn't even know when I went to see that movie. I had no idea what it was about. I knew it was weird. I knew it was sort of a sci-fi horror ish. Not really my bag necessarily, but I was kind of fascinated with the whole concept. I'm big Demi Moore fan and man, I went and saw that movie and I was like, this is a fucking masterpiece.

What did I just watch? And I'm not a horror guy, but I mean, do you remember the first time you saw the fly? Do you remember the first time you saw Cronenberg's fly? I mean, that is sort of a, if not a life-changing moment, sort of a brain breaker. I mean, that thing was spectacular. And it just seems like the director of the substance,

Coralie Farjeet. I don't know if I'm pronouncing her name right, but I'll tell you one thing. Her vision was tight. All her homages, all her sources were present. Cronenberg, Kubrick, David Lynch, all of them.

But she didn't just it wasn't an appropriation thing. She had integrated their visions into her own and made this spectacular, poignant, cutting movie that is just grotesque as fuck. And man, you watch that movie. You don't even know you sit through two acts of that movie and you're like, what could they possibly do?

for a third act of whatever we're sitting through right now. And then it happens and you're like, oh my God, they fucking did it. They did it. And you just watch in horror and excitement and just pure entertainment, but also,

big fucking message film in a lot of ways about vanity, about aging, about, you know, women in the workplace in this particular context, specifically show business. Dennis Quaid does a thing that is pretty fucking great in this movie. And Margaret Qualley is, uh, she's like a fucking star, man. But, uh, I, I profoundly liked the movie. I profoundly liked the movie. Uh,

Look, I'm in Iowa City at the Ingler Theater on Thursday, February 13th. Des Moines, Iowa at the Hoyt Sherman Place on Friday, February 14th. Kansas City, Missouri at the Midland Theater on Saturday, February 15th. Asheville, North Carolina at the Orange Peel on Thursday, February 20th. Nashville, Tennessee at the James K. Polk Theater on Friday, February 21st. Louisville, Kentucky at...

at the Baumhart Theater on Saturday, February 22nd, and Lexington, Kentucky at the Lexington Opera House on Sunday, February 23rd. Then I'm coming to Oklahoma, Texas, South Carolina, Illinois, and Michigan, Toronto, Vermont, New Hampshire, and New York City for my special taping. You can go to WTFpod.com slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets. Vermont sold out. And I think Skokie...

Might be sold out. But other than that, go for it. It's so funny, man. You know, Adam Ray does a very strange circus like variety show. I guess you could call it where he plays Dr. Phil. It's a Dr. Phil live show. It's very popular. And he's a very funny guy. And I like him.

He's a good guy. And he asked me months ago to be on this Dr. Phil live business. And I haven't been guesting on hardly anything. It's been a long time since I did a talk show. It's been a long time since I've been on a podcast of someone else's. I just feel like I'm sort of out of the loop of that. And it doesn't it doesn't feel necessarily that important to me. But it was one of those things where I'm kind of driven by like, hey, well, these guys are doing it. Why am I not doing it?

Why, why is he not asking me to do it? And I think it's that attitude that, you know, that slight tone, uh, that, you know, it's got nothing to do with anything, but, uh,

But last night I did it and I was nervous. It's so fucked up. I've been doing this goddamn job in every capacity possible since I was 22 years old. And this is just a live show where, you know, he's playing Dr. Phil and I just got to sit up there and riff with him. But I'm like, oh my God, what is this? Am I going to be funny? How come? Oh God, what am I fucking doing? And it was a good time. But what was really great though for me was,

And sometimes the comedy story, you don't know, you know, who's going to be there. And Johnny Knoxville was on the show. He made a contraption that it was funny because I didn't even know what it was. I'm like, so you're on the show. He goes, well, I made a contraption and I'm like, this is going to hurt someone's balls. There are balls involved. And he laughed and he's like, yeah, it was funny.

It was actually some sort of contraption that obviously, you know, punches you in the balls. I mean, what Johnny Knoxville's famously known for getting into situations where your balls are going to get punched somehow with something.

But either way, that's a sweet guy. That's a funny guy. And really, you know, I don't know about you, but I got to watch Jackass at least twice a year. But I got to pace it out because you want to stay funny, even if you know it's coming. You want to stay funny. You got to find those funny things, man. I watched the other guys the other night and with Will Ferrell and Mark Wahlberg. That's a funny fucking movie.

And now I'm like, I can't watch out for like a year. You got, you got pay some. So few things are really hilarious. And you know, if you get locked in your phone and you're just watching bits and pieces, just remember you're destroying your mind.

Watch something that has follow through. Watch something that has an arc that's more than 30 seconds or a minute long. Don't just like, don't let them use you with that fucking technology where you're just punching yourself in the brain for fucking dopamine hit or a little sadness, a little joy. Don't do it. Get out there. Get face to face with some people. Talk. You know, it doesn't, you have to pay attention the whole time, but just get back in the groove. Yeah.

Of talking to other people in an engaged way. Thank God it's what I do for a living. So, folks, look, home security is important for everyone. I have home security because I want my place to be safe whether I'm home or not. And we've recommended SimpliSafe for almost a decade as home security you can trust.

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Go to simplisafe.com slash WTF. That's simplisafe.com slash WTF for 50% off, and the first month is free. There's no safe like Simply Save. Oh, my God. Demi Moore. Are you kidding me? What a joy. When's the last time you watched Ghost or G.I. Jane? So many movies, and you forget.

You know, just how long she's been doing this and how a few good men always good, always singular. Also, again, go see the substance. Don't just, just do it. Put yourself through it. It's worth it. That should be a saying. Just do it. Put yourself through it. It's worth it. Can we t-shirts t-shirts?

All right, look, this is me and Demi Moore. The Substance is still playing in theaters. I would go see it in a theater. It's also available to buy or rent digitally. And it's also streaming on Mubi. Demi is nominated for Best Actress at this year's Academy Awards. Very exciting. And it was a real treat for me to talk to her. So this is that.

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I'm a little bit more hoarse than I normally am because... Why? I just had like... So much stuff? I think respiratory. Really? I just think I picked a little something up and then I traveled. I went to Europe. You just got back from Europe? Yeah. And then I go back Tuesday, Monday. It's a very exciting time. Hey.

God. All right. I may pull my contact out and be in glasses. That's more my norm. Yeah. Do whatever you got to do. Here, I'll do, like, these are, like, I'll pull out all the props. Her water bottle. What is that? Oh, the doggy. Yes. I saw that dog on Graham Norton.

She is. Real star. She is a superstar. Yeah. Do you want to wear headphones? Yeah, I can do that. Yeah. Tell me how we do this as professional. Well, yeah, it's not that complicated. You've had some bigwigs here. Yeah. I'm feeling very honored. Yeah, I've had some bigwigs, some of your peers, I imagine, people you know. Yes. Movie stars and whatnot have come here.

Exes, all of them. They've all been here. Okay. I love it. Actually, I'm...

I met Scout. Did you know that? Yeah, she said you guys met. I don't remember now. Oh, was it at a comedy show? Yeah, she saw me at a comedy show, and I was talking about my dad with dementia. And she said, hey, you know, my dad, you know. And so we talked, and we had lunch once and talked about dads with that. Yeah. It was helpful. She's a great human. Yeah, good singer, too. Yeah. And does the whole thing.

You got good kids. I do have good kids. They're all good? They are really good. You know, they're good people. Yeah? Which is nice to be able to say that, reflect that as a truth. Yeah. That they're good humans. And does that surprise you? No, but you know. You never know with the kids. Yeah.

No, I think I made probably, well, I want to say we made, because we did make the decision, Bruce and I together. Probably the smartest thing we ever did was...

decide to make our primary residence in Idaho out of LA. And that's where we essentially raised them. Really? Yeah. And that was just, you just decided to take a break and go to Idaho? You know, Bruce liked to ski. I had never been there. I actually didn't know anything about the state. And

Sorry. That's Pilaf the little mouse. And the first time I went, my oldest daughter was 12 days old. Wow. And so it was kind of looked at as more like this is a getaway in the mountains kind of thing. And then when she started kindergarten and we were here. Yeah. But a lot of work was on, hey, you can't be like doing that during this, buddy. A lot was on location. Right. Sun Valley? Yeah. And so I thought...

I, you know, I grew up where you went to the school closest to your house. Sure. And L.A. was a whole overwhelming, perhaps even a little bit intimidating for me. Yeah. As a young mother. And I just thought, what?

what are we doing when we could be in this small town in a very different experience for them away from this big world that they're going to already get so much of. Yeah. And so we just made that decision to make the primary residence. So you had all of them up there? Yeah. Two were born there. Yeah. And you stayed there for years? Yeah. I still, I mean, I was... You lived there? Yeah. Still half the time. But you have the place here too. Yeah.

I do, but, you know, and I love L.A. Do you? I do love L.A. You know, my kids are here. There's a lot of wonderful things, but I...

Like, I live here. Yeah. But I don't know if I'm living. Yeah, I get it. It's anchored. Yeah. It's an anchored place. I've been here for a long time. So you can just come here, just hop right in, and then leave. Yeah, I guess that is how it sometimes rolls. But what is your relationship with New Mexico? Because I grew up there. Oh, you did? In Albuquerque, yeah. Wow.

But were you born there? Born in Jersey, but like third grade through high school. Oh, wow. Yeah, my dad's still there. I mean, you know, I'm New Mexican. You are? Yeah. So I was born, obviously, in Roswell. Isn't that crazy? Roswell. I know. Why were you born in Roswell?

I think the combination of, I mean, it's obviously it's where my parents met and- But were they involved in the military or something? So my dad's dad was in the army there and they had a substantial base at one point. Yeah.

And my mom's family had slowly kind of moved there, you know, from generations, generations before. Where are they from originally? So you're full southwest? I mean, yeah. It's crazy. We have, you know, some combination of some...

Native American indigenous from where up like like Cherokee that's so I would I'm assuming perhaps they came through, Oklahoma Yeah, yeah, yeah sure and then so there's kind of spread of family in Texas then into New Mexico, so I don't know exactly how my grandparents Well, it's like real cowboy shit. Yeah, so that somehow I was born in the town of aliens. I

Area 51. So crazy. Nobody ever spoke about that, by the way. Well, maybe that's because your dad knew something. I think everybody knew something and nobody was saying anything. What they knew is still a mystery, but they actually have kind of now come...

Out with them. They have kind of a joke kind of museum, but now they actually have something substantial that really documents a lot of kind of the government influence and keeping the radio shut down. People not sharing their stories. There was a lot more involvement. So, you know, there's also one of the largest landing strips out in that area. So a lot of aircraft, a lot of do a lot of test landing. So who knows? I don't know. Where do you come down on it?

You open-minded about it? Totally. Why? Why not be? Why not? What do you got to lose? Exactly. Did you ever go over to White Sands? As a kid, but I haven't been as an adult. You remember it though, right? Of course. How can you forget White Sands? And Carlsbad Caverns? I know!

Crazy. So did you know the bottomless lakes are connected to Carlsbad Caverns? No. I only know that as somebody who kind of does enjoy a fair amount of true crime, that they found bodies that have drowned. Where's the bottomless lakes? That's like out towards Roswell, but out. Oh, so all the way. Wow. And that they've then found bodies. In Carlsbad. Yes. That's crazy. That's what I've heard. I went there as an adult.

To Carlsbad. I was on a class trip to go down there once. I got sent home. Why? Because I got caught in the bathroom with a girl. It was terrible. I had to take the bus by myself the whole way home. As an adult? No. Okay. Yeah. This just happened to me. It's crazy. It was like two months ago.

Yeah. I was there the whole time, and they finally sent me home. No, it was a class trip, and we were supposed to go overnight to Carlsbad and White Sands. And we were all just going crazy, and I was making out with a girl. It was in high school. Yeah. What are you going to do? They sent me home. Some guy ratted me out. Oh, snitch. But anyway. Snitch. I snitched, totally. Do you know the funniest thing? And it's such an imprinted memory. We did a lot of driving, because I moved a lot as a kid. Yeah.

In New Mexico, when it says the last gas station for 100 miles, you better listen to it because you drive and there is nothing. You're just looking at that gauge. There is nothing. So what happened? You moved from there to where? So...

We moved to California, moved around to a few different places in California. But wait, so this is the whole family? This is my immediate family, just my mom, dad, brother. But not your original dad? Not my original dad. Right. But who I didn't ever even know or figure out until I was 14. Did you go find the other guy? I mean, the crazy story, I think I write about this in my memoir, which is...

I had an understanding just being a very nosy, curious kid that there was this young fireman that my mother became involved with when my dad went off to college. And the story that I bought...

for a long time was, you know, that they were together. Then my dad came back from college and then she went with him and got pregnant with my, with my dad, with me. Yeah. And then left Charlie. Yeah. So then, you know, as these things as you know, they, they, they limit your, your full access to the story. So I didn't really, I knew that she had married this guy, Charlie, but I didn't really know. Yeah. And one day, this is when my,

Dad, my parents, who my adopted father and biological mother had divorced. Same people, second time. Yeah. And we were driving to see my dad. After they got divorced a second time. Yes. They married to each other twice. Yes. Good. Exciting. And so we had a friend in the car and I was telling the story that I knew, you know, that she'd been married, but then she left and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And I turned to my mother.

And I said, is he my real dad? Yeah.

And I don't even know why it came out of my mouth. And I just, as soon as I said it, I knew, I already knew the answer. Yeah. And she said, who told you that? And then I knew. Uh-huh. So from that moment to five days later, when I went to have a trip to visit my mom's youngest sister. Yeah. I went from not having this information to the man who is my biological father showing up. Oh my God. To me. How old were you? 14. Right. Yeah.

Yeah, 14 almost. Was that crazy? Do you remember the feeling? I think it was, I think the emotions were of so many things. Betrayal. Yeah. Feeling like everybody but my brother and I knew. Yeah.

questioning everything that I thought I knew about who I am. The truth, yeah. Like things where I've said, oh, I'm so like my dad. Oh, right. But am I like my dad? And in many ways, I was like my dad. Like your stepdad. Like things that we were interested in. Yeah, of course, yeah. And my dad had adopted me. He was in the room when I was born. Okay. So I never knew anybody else. Right, right. And so there were so many mixed emotions, but to have...

A relative stranger show up who you are now connected to. I think at that time there was no one really...

on what my experience was. And so I think I felt like my job was just to handle it. Right. Just handle it. I did. And did you ever have a relationship with that guy? I saw him one other time. Wow. And yeah, it was... Oh my God. But I met these grandparents who were lovely people that I also ended up never seeing again. Yeah. But the most bizarre thing is...

When there's genetic DNA, the physical, you know, and you see someone that you have similarities. So speaking about my eye, my whole life, to that point, I thought my dad, who had an eye problem, that's where I got mine. Sure. Not the case. Well, it was from my dad, but it was from the biological father. He had that too? It was different, but it was like one of those weird kind of...

How do you make sense when you're a kid that you think who you feel is grown up? Because obviously, if you've done a little bit of research, you know that mine was not the most kind of typical upbringing. I wouldn't say it felt stable. Definitely. I've done a little bit of research. But when you do that kind of research, you're like, holy shit. How did you get out of this with any sense of self?

Yeah, on one hand, it's kind of miraculous. Yeah. And the other, you know, I'm just, I feel like grateful for kind of an innate sense of not needing, A, to be a victim or to find fault or blame as any excuse. Well, I mean, it's odd when you have parents who are emotionally irresponsible, to say the least. And, you know, I don't know exactly what that situation was, but you do feel

Some part of you steps in to parent you, probably not great. But if you've got that instinct that, you know, yourself. Like self-preservation. Enough to not to not. Yeah. I mean, you're going to go one way or the other instinctively. You're going to break down and be a victim or you're going to be like, you know, fuck it. Yeah. Yeah. I think that I, you know, being one might, you know, it's like and particularly from where I sit today, like.

I look at how young my parents were. Yeah, right. They were so young. How young were your parents? 18 and 19. That's crazy. Like, it's so, so young. And so I was thinking about, you know, like the kind of the they were growing up as I was becoming, you know, a teenager. So it was almost more like looking at me as a

as a peer or an equal. How could they have had the wherewithal to be nurturing or, you know, kind of give you your space properly or anything? I don't think that, I think they were trying to work through their own things with not the kind of tools, language, support that exists today. Yeah, because they were like running around the Southwest. Yeah, I mean, you

You know. And there was alcoholism, too? Yeah, definitely. Both, you know, drugs, alcohol and mental illness. Oh, big three. Yeah. But, you know, like I think about I, you know, my parents were maybe at this point 23 when I was diagnosed with an incurable kidney disease. And thinking of and and I so remember. Twenty three. Like reassuring them like it's OK. Yeah.

You did that. Yeah. Because you had to be the parent. You had to be together. I mean, I just think I felt, and again, sometimes I think, maybe it's just something we come in with. Were you the oldest? I'm the oldest, definitely. Don't I seem like an oldest? Yeah. Well, me too, because there was a point where my parents, my mom was 22 when she had me, but they always seemed to think that I had a handle on shit. Yeah. I don't know why that happened. But sometimes I think that's,

Because in some way we do, even though we don't. Right. Like I don't in like I feel like I am the most autonomous I've ever been in my entire life right now where I've not waited with responsibility of others. Right. That I was a parent for my parents in many respects. Yeah. Yeah.

And then was a young parent. Right. And then now everyone's gone or away, out of the house anyways. So you can just do what you do. Yeah. It's an interesting time to be just sitting in myself and experiencing life without my first priority being caretaking someone else. Right. So it's kind of amazing. It's a relief. Yeah.

It's just it doesn't feel like you're a phantom limb. Are you craving care caking? No, I went through that maybe at an earlier stage of like, well, what do I do with myself? Right. And where now it's, wow, this is kind of exciting to be much more comfortable in my own skin. Yeah. Yeah.

There's a certain liberation, I feel. Yeah. I would think so. That's so nice. And not that any of the other was bad. It's just different. Sure. You know what I mean? It's just a different time. Well, you have to frame it like that after a point of time. I mean, you have to, at some point, get into a zone where you're like, you can't regret the past.

That there's a certain type of acceptance that has to happen and you can't resent yourself. But I have to assume that was hard earned. I think, of course, there's a lot of work I've put into the reframing. But at the same time, there was also a part that already held a certain perspective, even with, you know,

challenging times with my mother when my children were small, having an ability to have a level of compassion for her. Yeah. And that, which only has grown over time to a greater degree. But what happens when you go, so how did you end up in Los Angeles? Okay, so,

I was roughly, just on average, never less than two schools a year. I think there was a lot of geographics taking place. On their part. Yes. What was your- My dad was in the newspaper business. Interesting. Doing what? He did advertising layout, but like the old school where they cut paste. Oh, yeah, sure. At a light board? You know, it's like with the text and all of it. Yeah, real craft. And he was quite good at it, and he worked for-

Howard Scripps League. I can't remember which one is which. But anyway, they own newspapers all over. So we had opportunities where he would get promoted, move, and promoted or keeping ahead of that, who knows? But I learned, just know that I learned how to load a U-Haul like nobody's business.

And you did have siblings? I have one younger brother. Okay, so you're both kind of scrambling around. But we... So, you know, I... We moved from New Mexico when I was five to California, which I can't remember. We did like Ontario, Merced, that kind of thing. Then we ended up...

Moving back to Roswell for a few years. Then we moved to Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania, that's a long one. You drove? We did. In that U-Haul. That's crazy. In that U-Haul. That's a long haul. Seeing the country back in the day. My spot was in the floorboard. You know, all the luxuries. And a few different places in Pennsylvania. Do you think it was like, who was drinking? Your dad?

Yeah, definitely. So you think he was burning down the house and then having to leave town? I don't, like some of it I'm not quite sure. My old man was like that, not with booze. Got in trouble. What kind of trouble? Well, it started with, like he was a doctor. But, you know, I was older, you know, I wasn't a kid. But like for years he would sign up with an already existing practice in a small town.

for a year contract to be an orthopedic surgeon. And then by the time he left, you know, he's bipolar. So his bipolar-ness would have arced and they wanted him out. That's what I think. So he was in like Muscatine, Iowa, Warsaw, New York, Victoria, Texas. It's weird. So do you think, or in your experience, did his...

issue as with being bipolar. Do you think that's something that developed later? Like, you were saying you were older. Well, I was older. No, no, no. He was always, you know, erratic. And like, I have a lot of the same kind, like I'm sober too. I'm sober, what, 25 years? And he, you know, but you have the same symptoms. You know, my mom was like this

you know, always had these eating disorders and like it is both of them were kind of fucked up, but not specifically drugs and alcohol. Right. Just other isms. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Just the dysfunction. So what you get is what you're talking about. You get, you have to raise yourself somehow in a way and you have to be there for them because they're just needy people that don't know really how to love properly. So they kind of just, you know, it's all, it's all like a, a kind of a manipulation. They panic and then they apologize. Yeah.

I mean, I think, but, you know, look, I really know that it wasn't all okay, the things that occurred. Yeah, sure. But what I know is that if they could have done it different, if they had, that they would have. I get that. I do. I got to that point. But I was asking you about the bipolar. My mother also was bipolar, but hers was undiagnosed until actually quite late in her life. Well, that's probably why she drank. Of course. All the self-medicating was trying to...

Take it down. But I think it also evolved from undealt with trauma in her own life. The bipolar. Yeah, I do. That's interesting, that kind of stuff. Yeah. You know, like what is really chemical and is that transferable as well? I mean, like it seems as trauma research kind of gets more in depth that it makes sense because your brain's always adapting. So why wouldn't it change?

Yeah.

Oh, my God. And it's so interesting how then she repeated patterns even in choosing this. Like, they had an incredible love story, my parents. Yeah. But it was also a love-hate. Sure. And couldn't live with each other, couldn't live without each other. Oh, yeah. And it was one of those really twisted, manipulative, all the things that go with that. But that comes from an inability to love or be loved. Yeah.

So it's all drama, like, you know, like, blow up, come back, you know, that. It manufactures some sense of connection, but it's not. Because there's no love, no central love of self. Yes. No central love of self. What are we going to do about that? Or what am I going to do about it? I can help you. See, you've got a project now. I think, though, really, like, as I continue to grow and which I think is important,

I think really everything else we do is all the set dressing for us all as human beings to reach a place of true love and acceptance of self. I do. I think everything else is just what we're given to be able to have the experiences to find those reflections, challenges. Yeah. Why do they have to be so awful?

You know, I look at that also and I can look at like, would you be who you are? Would I be who I am? Yeah. If I had had it all cushy and nurturing, would I have pushed to do the things that I've done? Yeah. I didn't know anything about acting. I didn't know anything about this industry. Yeah.

I think that those are the things that make us who we are. No, yeah. And I guess when you get to that point, the act of self-acceptance is essentially who you are. Are there some things I would have liked to have been resolved earlier on? Yes.

Shit, yeah. Happily. Yeah. Happily. Would have really taken a load off if I could have had the same life. And I think, well, I don't have any regrets and I do have a limited, well, no, it's not limited. I accept myself. But I think if I had a little of this or a little of that, you know, I probably would have been just as good, but maybe a little better in some ways.

Yes, but everything in its right time. I know. I know. It sounds a little cliche, but it's so true. You have to look at it like that. There are things, yes, what I have liked to have felt more comfortable, more confident, more...

You know, have a sense of trust in myself that that I mean, but not having that trust also has given me a deeper compassion to feel others in a way that I don't know if I would have I would have. Right. It's interesting. So there there's an idea that.

But because of your needs or your lack of trust in yourself and your desire to connect with others, you develop a different type of empathy. Yeah. Because it's like finding that compassion. Because any pain or hurt or rejection, any of those things that come, I really do see as, you know, they're there.

There's a gift in it. And I, in particular, hold this perception that everything in life is happening for me, not to me. And that is a huge game changer. Everything is happening for me, not to me. That's interesting. It's a good way of phrasing. I tend to go with the shit happens model.

Not necessarily to me or for me, but hey, life isn't easy for everybody, for anybody. That's true. But think about it. If you just apply this language, when you look at something, you go, okay, I don't like it. It's not the way I want it. Let's just say something's happening. This feels really shitty. Yeah. But if I can trust that this is happening for me. Yeah.

Then I can step back and then also say, what is this trying to give me that I'm missing? And there is always something that it is trying to give you. It is trying to give you more of you than you had before. Okay. You opened up to that awareness. I like that. As opposed to it just being like, ah, shit happens. Well, where'd you get that perspective? That little gem. Yeah.

I think, again, there was a part of me that kind of had a leanings towards that. And then I did an incredible three-year course with University of Santa Monica on spiritual psychology. And it was a 10- What year, when was that? So it was, first year was pre,

Pre-pandemic, so 2020. Oh, so recently. Yeah. Yeah. But I had already been working with a mentor who had a master's in this. And the year I started, they opened it up to anybody who was interested in studying spiritual psychology. So what is it, like you're reading Young? Yeah.

It's really more a practical application and exploring the idea that psychology had kind of become in the academic world very much just centered on the mind. Right. And it had lost kind of a connection to spirit. Yeah.

And so this was trying to bring back, I think, a more whole kind of perspective that they're not two isolated aspects. Right. You know, this idea that, you know, with something's happening in our body, that there's usually a parallel of something that's going on on an emotional level. Yeah. That it's not isolated. Well, do you track trauma? Do you know where...

Whatever parts of your life had caused you the bad habits or the or the bad self-image. Can you track those? Definitely. There are things like where I, you know, and I think, again, part of the exploration in my book really was like an interesting kind of cathartic experience.

Putting down on paper certain events with that essential question of like, how did I get here? And really being able to see not just the traumas, but also the, you know, all the events and the interconnectedness of these events. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how that has led to this very moment right now. Yeah. To be able to be having this conversation. Sure, sure. And so...

So you've been a searcher? Literally since I was a kid. Yeah? Yeah. I used to ask to go to different churches. Like, literally. Yeah. Say to my parents, hey, do you mind? They're like, yeah, go ahead. When you were, what, 10? Yeah. Like, I would say, I had, like, I was just, and the crazy thing is, until I started kind of exploring spirituality...

And I'd been to a few different types of churches, you know. And I thought church was a place you went to be yelled at. And then it was only later that I was like, oh, my God. This is what, like, when you have, you know, a priest or a minister or, you know, they're advising you that it's supposed to be guidance. I didn't get that. When you were younger. No. And I was asking to go...

To this Baptist, to this Methodist. I was baptized, you know, late in the game, you know, Catholic. But my parents weren't really, they were open, but they weren't really following anything. And I think there was something I was seeking. I was seeking something that I knew was there, but it... Probably some sort of like undeniable stability. Yeah.

But also this connection with something that felt bigger, that I just didn't know, I wasn't anchored in anything. I know. My brother was like that, but I never really had that. I mean, I literally remember being like 12 and a girl in a new school went to a Greek Orthodox. And I was like, oh, wow, I'd really like to see what that is. Yeah, sure. Like, I really, I think...

I don't think I had a clarity or an awareness of why I was seeking. You know what it is? I think it was that I was seeking truth.

What's truth? Yeah. And I think probably because I was born into a lie. Interesting. I was born into a lie. Yeah. And so I was seeking truth, but I didn't even know why. Yeah. Some kind of like unfucked with truth. Yes. Yeah. But I don't think it was, again, not language. No, sure, sure. You know. Yeah, I get it. But I think it definitely evolved for me. Well, if your whole childhood is a lie.

You know, you're wired for that. What is true? What is real? Right? Yeah. So when did you get to Hollywood? So after we moved to Pennsylvania, Washington State, we moved from Washington State to, I actually had a pit stop back in New Mexico where I had some very grounding, amazing time with my grandmother. Wow.

I thank God for grandparents. By the way. Yeah. Miracle. Yeah. So I then went from Washington State. We moved to Redondo Beach. Yeah. That's nice. So we kind of moved, you know, youngish family to Redondo Beach. From Redondo Beach, Marina Del Rey, and then parents divorced a second time. And my brother went with my dad and stayed in Redondo Beach. And my mother and I moved to West Hollywood. Was she in show business? No. Huh.

No, she worked in accounting at Electra Records for a short time. Like, I mean, it was not, no. But now you're in Hollywood. No, but I was in Hollywood, but knew nothing of acting, knew nothing of the entertainment industry. But it was obviously around, but I was, you know. How old were you? At this point, I think I was turning 14 or like right around there. So when do you start to know you've got something? Yeah.

I didn't think I had anything, but I didn't have anything to lose. Yeah. And we lived in this Kings Road apartment. And I remember Tim Hutton was living there with his single dad. And they were just, I think, moving out as we were moving in. But the real, like, impactful moment of this story

King's Road Apartments, kind of a swinging singles-ish type spot, was this incredibly stunning, breathtaking, self-possessed young German actress that Roman Polanski had flown over, who was also living there with her somewhat crazy wife.

mother. And she was just a tiny bit older than I was. And we became friends. And this was Nastassja Kinski. And I'm

I mean, I remember so vividly looking out from our little apartment balcony and seeing this most incredible creature who seemed so comfortable in her own skin. And I thought, I don't know what that is, but I want it. Like, what is that? I felt awkward. And I had a cross. I had a wandering eye. I felt so like whatever that is. And so...

what the big Hollywood kind of moment evolved with spending time with her, going to dance class, doing things. I met Roman Polanski. Um, how was that? Interesting. Didn't know it. Nothing had yet occurred on the other side. Um,

I remember the moment was she felt very comfortable speaking English, but didn't feel as confident reading. Yeah. And so asked me if I would read scripts aloud to her. Yeah. And that's when I kind of had this visceral experience of this storytelling, this world. Yeah. That you could kind of dive into in this different way. Yeah. And...

And then not too long, she left to go actually make tests with Roman Polanski. And I had eye surgery so that my eyes moved together. Yeah. And I made this decision, like, what do you... I want to try to do this. What do you have to do? Right. I had no idea what it was. Never trained. Yeah. Didn't have...

An effing clue. And you're like 16? Not even 16 yet. 15. And she goes to do tests, and now you're like, I got to get in this. Like, what is it? How do you do it? And what happened? Somebody said, well, you need to get an agent. Yeah. How do you do that? What do you need to get pictures? Right. Like, it was like such a... And your mom was good with it? I think... Truth is, I could have kind of done whatever I wanted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, think about it. I'm 15. My mom's, what, 32? Right. Right.

And she's worrying about her own shit. Yeah. Yeah. So I just set out very...

kind of very in a very practical kind of way but I didn't ever feel I had a real sense of a foundation it's not like somebody said go study theater and I had you know as part of the survival pathway you know my education was completely a mess and so I I needed to work yeah and so I I didn't finish 11th grade did alright okay

But the downside of that, and this is why I always encourage, it's not that you can't have an education a different way. Life is an education. Living is an education. Like, what more, you know, do we need? But there was a missing piece in my own self-judgment that I wasn't smart. Right. Yeah. And that was one of the big things that I had to work to overcome because I wasn't exposed to even the idea of learning how to learn. Right. Right.

I had been in a survival mode for so long. In so many different schools. So long. Yeah. And again, I was very practical. I need, like, I've been moved around so much, don't have enough credits, and I'm ready to get on with it. Like, I need to, like, figure out. So you got a job? I got a job.

I worked at a collection agency. I always had a deep voice, so that kind of worked for them. On the phone? They didn't know I was a kid on the other end of the phone. Yeah. Deep in Hollywood. I think like Hollywood and Vine. Yeah, yeah. Some shithole office. Yeah. Um...

I think we'd take the bus. And it was like I had kind of, I had been at Fairfax High School for a short while. And that's pretty, there were some stars there, right? Anthony Kiedis, Flea. Yeah. You knew those guys? I didn't know them, but we were there the same year. We're all the same age. Yeah. Wild. I know. Those guys must have been out of control. It seems like he would definitely have known them.

I think that they may have been in a whole other world. And plus, I was literally like it was so short because I was at Fairfax. Then I left and went to Pali for a short while, then was back at Fairfax. Yeah. But in the continuation part, the screw up part. Yeah. It was also like you're this kid with an unstable mom looking for some sort of connection in a fairly, you know, crazy environment time, a predatory time. I mean, like, how do you surface that?

Well, I learned very quickly. So I got a SAG card, which was a really big deal. How'd you do that? Somehow, I did get an agent. I got pictures. Yeah, yeah. And I got a two-word...

line on a silly TV show. Not silly. I shouldn't say that. It's just a show many people don't know called Kaz. I remember that. Who was that lead guy? Lieberman? Yeah, Lieberman. He's a great actor. Ron Lieberman? Ron Lieberman. I saw him in Angels in America. So he was the lead of the show Kaz. Yeah, I remember it kind of, yeah. And I was like 15. Yeah. So I was officially Taft Hart lead. Oh, yeah. That's what that was. Right? Yeah.

And I don't know if through the agent and I got these two lines, which was playing a young prostitute. Yeah. $50, mister. Yeah. That was my big moment. That was the big line? But you know what? Like, that was a game changer. Yeah. Like, there was something that felt like game on, official. Yeah. But then I learned... Well, you're on a set. You can see what's going on. I think it had to have been in one of the studios in the Valley. I don't remember exactly. Yeah.

I had not a clue. Yeah. Like I was definitely of the university fake it till you make it. Yeah. And so I just, I, but I learned very quickly as I started to go on some auditions that they would rather hire somebody over 18 to play a teenager. Yeah. Unless you were somebody like say Jodie Foster who had been doing it since she was quite young or even Helen Hung. Like there was like a lot of these other actors my age, but who had a lot more experience. Yeah.

So then I figured out that I could potentially model, lie about my height, lie about my age, and somewhat make a living without having to have a regular job, like a nine-to-five kind of job. Yeah.

I was able to do that. And then as soon as I turned 18, I actually started to get more work. But then the real game changer was when I got the soap. Yeah. A month before my 19th birthday. You didn't do any acting training? I did a tiny, not much at all. Yeah. There was this wonderful woman, very theatrical, named Zina Provendy. Yeah. And somebody had recommended that class. Yeah.

But the weird thing is, this is how weird sometimes our brains work. Yeah. In my weird twisted brain, I thought I could go on an audition and if I get rejected, there's a lot of reasons why. Yeah. But if I go into an acting class and they tell me I'm terrible, that might mean I can't really do it. Right. So I should avoid that. Right. Yeah.

So alcoholic. Right, but also self-preserving. No, it is, and it's very clever. Who wants to know the truth? It's very clever how my brain maneuvered like this kind of thing. Yeah, well, I mean, but that also shows some belief in yourself because you obviously are very good at it, but you didn't want to risk that.

Because somehow it would be as if somebody said it. Yeah. That might be the truth. Right. And so I couldn't afford that. And you couldn't believe in yourself yet. No, I didn't have enough of myself to believe it. Not for a long time. So when you got, what was it? Which soap was it? General Hospital? General Hospital. And that shot here? Yeah. Yeah.

That's crazy. Yeah. And you were on that for what? So all in two years, because right in the first, you know, beginning, I got offered this movie, Blame It on Rio. Yeah. With Stanley Donnan, Michael Caine, and Joe Bologna. Right. Where Michael Caine played my dad. Yeah, I remember. So, which is not a movie. You could not make that movie today. Yeah, I don't remember what happened in it exactly. Well-

It's two fathers taking their daughters and the one father ends up having an affair with the other daughter. Oh, yeah. Couldn't make that day. Could not make that day.

But I imagine that's a general hospital thing just because you're getting scripts day of and you're, you know, that the... It was great. Learning. It thrust me into something that was a whole other world. Yeah. And I really saw and appreciated what that was giving me. Yeah. And at the same time, and I also saw people that really loved being there, who had been there for years. And I thought, that's so incredible. Yeah. What an amazing thing to feel so content where you are now.

enjoying this. And I thought, wow, that is not me. Like I'm so, I see this as like this beginning of possibilities. There's so much out there. Yeah. Yeah. And so, okay. So you get Boyman on Rio and then you just start doing it.

Yeah, I come back. I do another movie. I go back, finish my contract. Yeah. Do another movie with Jerry Schatzberg called No Small Affair. Yeah. And then I got St. Elmo's Fire. That was a big one. Yeah. For a bunch of young actors, it was like the change also happened.

They weren't doing films that were young people's stories. Well, I remember it was like the big chill for kids. Yeah. Yeah. And that was the big break. Yeah. Now, where are you at with substance abuse? So, me, at that point. So, I got...

St. Elmo's fire. Yeah. And I had known like drinking wasn't good. Yeah. For me. Yeah. But that didn't preclude Coke. Right. Yeah. Like that didn't seem to. So. Wow. You could do one without the other. That's crazy. Yeah. So you're jacked. Lunatic. And so I get St. Elmo's fire. Yeah. And I remember Joel Schumacher saying to me, if I hear of you even drinking.

drinking one beer. Yeah. And I was like, I don't drink. Yeah. And then I got a call from the studio executive. Yeah. Who basically said, unless you're dying, you need to show up at this place tomorrow. And Joel kind of had humiliated me in truth with this wardrobe fitting about like drinking. And I hadn't even done anything that he had seen. Yeah.

But obviously, as you know, we're sneaky shits. And so I started the movie with 15 days of sobriety. I showed up at this place and it said, Alcohol Rehabilitation Center. And I was like, no, no, you don't understand. That's my mother. Yeah. I'm a drug addict. Right. That's not me. Yeah. I can handle it. And the woman who was the administrator had spoken with me and she said...

You know, we'd like to put you in a bed. And of course, they did it as it's they had my bag and everything was already all set. So I didn't I couldn't have they covered all the excuses I might have. And I said, no, no, but you don't understand. I'm starting a film in 15 days. And she says, what's more important, the film or your life? And I said, the film.

Because you know what? That is at that moment all I had. That was my life. And by truly the grace of God, Joel stuck his neck out. The studio stuck their neck out. The producers stuck their neck out. And I wasn't anybody at a point where I had box office. There was no reason. Yeah.

Except I think there was part of that group that was doing for me what they could not do for themselves. Yeah. And it was a miracle. Yeah. And you stayed sober for a long time. I stayed sober for almost 20 years. Yeah. Had a small detour. Yeah. And now I just turned 13. That's great. Yeah. So essentially the majority of my adult life. Yeah. I've been sober. It's so much more natural to me. Yeah. Yeah.

And I'm truly so, like I don't need to do any other detour. I know. Like I went vegan a couple years ago. And it wasn't even for ethical reasons. But I really feel like I've done enough meat. Yeah. I'm vegan also. Yeah. It's just. It's better. Yeah. It's easy. I feel better. Yeah. So you do St. Elmo's. But like the thing that really kind of broke the world was the ghost role, right? Yeah.

I mean, that, like, kind of the trajectory was St. Elmo's About Last Night. Oh, yeah, that was good. And that was, you know... Did Mamet write that script? It was based on sexual perversity in Chicago, right. He did Ed Zwick. Oh, yeah, yeah, I know that guy. Jim Belushi. Yeah, yeah, I remember. And what was... Elizabeth Perkins. Oh, yeah, Elizabeth Perkins. Amazing. Yeah, she's great. And it was, if I really look back, it's not like things happened overnight, but it was all moving in a very steady direction. Yeah.

And I can look back today and realize, wow, I was terrified. Yeah. That I didn't know what I was doing, that I definitely was a fraud. Sure. I didn't know how I was, how did I, where was it coming from? Yeah. I didn't know. Yeah, but you were showing up. You actually must have been, had some transformative talent once you got in it. I mean, there was something. The thing was, is when you don't know what that is. Yeah.

It's very scary because you're like, maybe it'll show up today, maybe it won't. Right, right. How did that happen? Are they lying to me or are they telling me the truth? And so you have no... Like, I had no blueprint or barometer for my own... All the way up through Ghost. Well, yeah. Like, I think Ghost was... Ghost became a shift because it was... Because it really pushed me deeply out of my comfort zone because it was...

Really pushing me to deal with something I've never I had never dealt with and don't even think consciously even in the process dealt with which was grief over just grief general grief because the movie ghost is all about loss. No, I know. Yeah, but like what were you accessing?

That's the thing is I think I had such deep grief. By that point, my dad had killed himself. I had a very challenged relationship with my mother. I had been on my own so long. I did Ghost at 25, almost 26, I think, 26. I'd been on my own already 10 years. Yeah.

So I think... And you didn't process any of it. I don't think that... I mean, I had only a little bit by being sober. Sure. But I don't think that... I think that I had a lot of grief there. I just... It wasn't processed. Right, yeah. That's it. And so... But it came up.

For the role. It must have been, I must have tapped into it somewhere because it's there and, and it's, uh, and I could, and only because my youngest daughter and her fiance had never seen Ghost. And so we literally just watched it two weeks ago. Wow. And I hadn't seen it in over 30 years. Yeah. That was wild. What'd you think? I was much more, um, appreciative and forgiving. Yeah. And, um,

And still, like, I had a lot of compassion for that little girl that was there who didn't know what she was doing or how it got there. And I was actually like, wow, you did okay, kid. Fuck. That's good to have that, you know. It's like the beauty of having a little time is just...

Just that kind of gentility with self that you can see that you couldn't give then. Yeah. I was so hard on myself all the time. Yeah, yeah. Nothing was ever enough. I was never enough. Ever. Yeah. I beat the shit out of myself. Yeah, I do that. Fuck. Not as much as I used to. I'm better too. Yeah. It's not that it doesn't come up. I just can, I can just. Identify it. Process it. Quicker. And shift it so fast. But so, but all of a sudden with Ghost, you're like a huge star. Yeah.

International. People were dressing like you. Cutting their hair, doing pottery. Yeah. Yeah. And it's amazing you didn't use. Nope. And you managed that shot to like, you know, it's like you become that hot. It's like it must have been crazy.

I think I just was kind of staying, like, I don't know, just trying to do the best I could with whatever was in front of me. Right. But there was... Were you, like, so, but were you applying, were you doing the program and stuff? Okay, so that you're, like, you know, do what's in front of you. Yeah. Like, you're applying principles. Yeah. To stay in the present. Yeah. And be a decent worker among workers and whatnot. And I think, again, you know, it's like, I think truth is truth. Yeah.

Yeah. And it resonates. Yeah. I think there was so much in what I got out of, you know, the various 12 step. Yeah. That just, I just go, yes, I recognize truth. And as I said at the beginning, I,

I was a seeker of truth. Yeah. I'm still a seeker of truth. Yeah. 12 Step helps to get a lot of the clutter out of the way, you know, so you at least can see your personal truth pretty clearly. Well, that's great. And so after that, I didn't realize just that you were this pioneer of women's pay that, you know, you demanded when you had the juice. Yeah.

You demanded equal pay and you got it. Well, what's interesting about that, too, it was framed as equal pay. I think what I was in that moment. Yeah. Because I've indirectly had some very bold moments that have made what some people would refer to as feminist statements. Yeah. And for me, they were always just.

my own questioning of something that didn't make sense. So my sense was, wow, at that point, let's say when G.I. Jane came and Striptease, I had been in quite a few films that had made a certain amount of money. A lot of money, yeah. And as I looked around...

There was parity in, like, if you had delivered, that also you, that was returned. Right. And so it was really just asking for what I felt was earned. Yeah. Not, I wasn't trying to, like, equal a man. Make a statement, yeah. It wasn't like, it's like, I wasn't in competition with men. Right, yeah. I was in competition with maybe. Being fair, fair. Yeah. Equal. What was right. Yeah, exactly. You know, it didn't make sense.

That you were driving this thing and, you know, you wouldn't get the same amount of money. And so it was really, once again, very practical. Sure. I saw it very practically. And obviously, I'm not, you know, naive to the fact that when that started to come in, like the fact that, wow, this could change it for all women. Yeah. And I, you know, I was very energized and moved by that idea. Yeah. And also...

Aware that anybody who steps out as the first is going to take some hits. And you did? Oh, yeah. In terms of roles? I think that there was a lot of shaming. Yeah. There was a lot of, like, they did not want to let G.I. Jane win as a, like, they were killing it months before it ever even was seen or could come out.

It's like the idea of me playing a stripper. It's, you know, I said it in my book, which is in reflection, I feel like striptease, I kind of betrayed women and G.I. Jane, I betrayed men. Yeah. And then I had so much media focus around the price tag. It's like, you're not that good. You don't really deserve. Right. Right. And, you know, you took your clothes off. Yeah. And so everything was diminishing. Yeah.

what I was bringing to the table. Right. And so it was like, they're going to kill this before it can get anywhere. Well, because I thought G.I. Jane was oddly like an insanely vulnerable movie. I agree with you. You know, like it's not, there's nothing shallow about that movie. And I think it holds up. Yeah, yeah. It really does. The journey of that character, you know, given the expectations and then, you know, being at odds with your own vulnerability, but not being able to hide it was kind of an insane thing.

And I think, you know, for me, I think I've naturally gravitated towards roles and they to me are.

that have challenged the status quo, have brought provocative questions, whether it's indecent proposal or things that really are not sexually provocative necessarily, but just thought-provoking. Yeah. But the point is that you've been doing this top-notch work for so long, and now finally everyone's like, hey, look, she's here. Yeah.

It's time. But like we were saying before, everything in its right time. I guess, but didn't it drive you fucking nuts? Here's the thing. Nobody can throw you under the bus unless you've thrown yourself under already. Yeah. And I think, you know, I shared when I won the Golden Globe that story about being a popcorn actress. Yeah. I don't know if you heard that. Oh, yeah, I remember. Yeah. So, which was a real experience that I had. And...

But again, it doesn't matter who he was or even really what he said. It's what I made it mean about me. Right. And how, like, that idea, like, okay, you get to be this, but you can't be that. Like, somehow I lost the idea that the two things could coexist. Right. The universe was also showing me that that wasn't happening. And so I just started to believe it until I really questioned whether or not...

there was meaningful, memorable work still out there for me. Yeah. And not in a way that I felt bad or sorry for myself, but really, again, very practically, like maybe the universe was saying to me, it's time to shift gears, try something else. Sure. You mean not acting? Yeah. Oh, okay. What would that be? You know, who knows? Maybe I'd become a psychologist. But I think it's... So my point to all of that is...

It's not like, oh, I should have gotten something. That doesn't matter because that's not how it happened. And maybe it didn't happen so that the impact right now

could affect and be so much more important to so many other people. That it's bigger than me. This is happening and it's bigger than me. That this is something that is of me being of service to something that is, of course, it is for me and it is an incredible acknowledgement and I am so deeply humbled. Yeah. But I also know that all of the hardships, the journeys, the times of that I, all of my lows,

are part of the humanity of my vulnerability of my humanness. People see that...

Maybe that's what it's for. And also, like, you probably, who knows if you would have been able even to tackle a role like this at another time. No, it's all of those things that led me. Yeah. You know, it's all of the things that I tortured myself in my younger years, all that violence against myself, that I was able from a more healed place to be able to go in and also bring a different perspective of that is that we are not victims. Yeah. That nobody...

could do something worse to me than what I've done to myself. And there's been some pretty awful things that I've experienced. Yeah.

Well, I mean, when I saw the movie, I didn't know what to expect or anything. Like, I just knew that, you know, it sounded like the premise of it sounded interesting. But like, you know, I'm not necessarily a horror guy, but I'm certainly a Cronenberg guy. And I'm certainly so I didn't really know what to expect. And I came out of it like, holy fuck, there's a masterpiece. Everyone's got to see this. And I would tell people they got to see it. And people like, really? I'm like, yeah, really. It's deeper than whatever you think it is.

For sure it is. Yeah. And I got people to go and we had conversations about it. I thought that the director knew exactly, you know, in a sort of frame-to-frame way what she was doing and what she wanted and what her sources were. And you could see the homage to her heroes. Yeah, which was beautiful. Terrific. And, you know, even once it's what makes it amazing is that

Once you buy into the conceit, which is almost immediately, it becomes a poetry movie in terms of what it's really depicting. You're not wondering like where is she really getting the drugs? Who's in there? It doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. Totally. It's totally irrelevant. But that's a hard thing to transcend if the movie isn't so masterful.

And it just was. And you were great. Thank you. Quali was great. The sort of what it had to say about all this stuff we're talking about. Exactly. About how we see ourselves and, you know, and the price of that, you know, and what you're willing to do to sort of, you know, honor the damage is kind of crazy. Yeah.

Yeah, and that chase of, like, that the answer is not on the outside. I know. There is no amount of searching, achieving that will ever give us that thing that we're looking for, which is that true liberation of that, I think, first thing.

forgiveness of self leads to acceptance of self. And as you accept, you really open the pathway of really loving and appreciating to the point where you can then actually really celebrate the shadow side, not just accept it, but actually go, oh boy, that's really kind of a groovy little weird part of me. Yeah. Yeah. I think like, I think that it's good that you did it. And I feel for myself that

That I've been on the precipice of it for a while. I'm close. But I realize that it takes, it really is a trust to open your heart. And like I can feel the weight of that. And there's still a good part of me that's sort of like, eh, just not all at once maybe. Yeah.

You don't want to just walk around crying all the time. I read this great, you know, page from Mark Nepo today that was all about the door. Yeah. So it's the door. There's a word for it. This door. And that you can go and do a lot of things, but that door is still waiting. And you can try to sand the door down and repaint it, but you've got to go through the door. Yeah.

You had to go through the door. But I also think we have to have the gentility and to give ourselves the dignity of our process. And, you know, as much as it's crazy making, there are things that you do keep repeating until you don't have to anymore. Yeah. Yeah. I see your leg is going now as we've gotten into this. Well, you don't have to repeat it. But ultimately what happens, what's weird about any of that stuff is

is that in its repetition, you realize it doesn't work anymore. And when you're in that zone of repetition, you either are going to give up or move through it. Yeah, it's like the true idea of surrender, which is not giving up, it's letting go. That's right. And again, the language is really important. And what you're letting go, that is the gateway to yourself.

Yeah, it's like letting go of these stories that are misunderstandings, misperceptions, and misidentifications. And also letting go of the behaviors that keep you from acknowledging or seeing or being with yourself. Yeah, it's like these comfort zones that keep us safe but also keep us limited. Yeah, or keep us sick. By the way, as I got this respiratory thing, I immediately thought somebody wrote me and said, you know, lungs are...

old or repressed sadness and grief. What's coming up for you? And I thought, wow, okay. I'm going to lean into this and see what's there. And to your point exactly,

Like there is a part that's been so protected, but what am I really protecting anymore? Yeah, it's so young. But it's also, it's not even stuff that I could pinpoint because it's not relevant. But my body doesn't know the difference. So I just have to encourage it to move through this and open the pathway. Yeah, I hold all of my stuff in my chest. You too? It's fucked up.

But we're doing good. We are. We're still here. Yeah. It's great seeing you. Thank you. I'm glad we talked. I think it was helpful. Was it? Yeah. I hope so. Did we do it? Yeah. All right. There you go. You know, a person who continues to do work on themselves and make changes and also be self-aware to somehow get to a better life, it's a...

It's doable, even with the authoritarian dread. Again, Demi is nominated for Best Actress at the Academy Awards for her performance in The Substance. Hang out for a minute, folks.

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Ah, this is exciting. On Monday's show, I talked to Ariana Grande, who's nominated for the Best Supporting Actress Oscar at this year's Academy Awards. We talked about that, but also about a lot of other stuff. Are you afraid of it? Of death? Well, I don't know. I think about it all the time. How are we here already?

I had a feeling because I've listened to your show and I'm a fan of yours, but I knew I had a strange feeling that we would, you and I would meet, say hello. They'd talk about death. I would meet one cat. Yeah, two, you met two. And we would jump into like the depths of everything we've ever experienced. I'm so sorry for asking you if you're afraid of death.

No, no, no. I mean, like, I think it's the most, you know, it's a pretty honest question. And I mean, the entire, you know, global economy is built on people being afraid of death and being distracted. But when I think about it, sometimes I think like, well, that'll be, you know, it'll be relaxing. Like, you know, I think I'm ready for a rest, you know, but I generally like to wake up. Yeah.

Oh, my God. I'm sorry. I'm having a coughing fit. No. But... Yeah. I think I am afraid of it, but I do... I think I can acknowledge it as an inevitability. And I think coming to peace with it, which you don't have to do. You're young. And I'm not that old. But there is a point where you're kind of like walking with it on a certain level. But, I mean, I feel like I've kind of experienced...

many things that have put it at the front of my brain and made me spend some time thinking about it. Right, the fragility of life. Yeah, the fragility of life and kind of like where do we go and what happens and how do I feel about it? I don't know. I mean, there is sort of a there is sort of a

of freedom and acceptance. Yeah, if you can do it. You'll hear that on Monday, but if you're a full Maron subscriber, you can hear my thoughts right after Ariana left the garage. Sign up by going to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST. Okay, Dream Syndicate fans. ♪

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Boomer lives. Monkey and Lafonda, cat angels everywhere.