Episode 1617 - James Mangold
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How's it going? Welcome. You okay? Everybody all right? I guess I should tell you who's on the show today. It's a pretty big show. James Mangold, the film director, the movie maker. James Mangold, real deal. Old school in a way. Great director. He made Copland. He made 310 to Yuma, Ford versus Ferrari. He made 310 to Yuma, Ford versus Ferrari.

He's nominated for Best Director at the Academy Awards for his film A Complete Unknown, the Bob Dylan movie, which you should probably see at least once. I've seen it once. I will see it again, I'm sure. But I'll be talking to him in a minute. I'll be in Iowa City tonight at the Engler Theater. Come down. I don't know if it's going to be snowing or what. I'm a little nervous.

I don't know if there's going to be air traffic controllers in the towers. A lot of things that my brain does that are probably unnecessary. Some of them practical. Some of them just panic-driven.

I'm in Des Moines, Iowa at the Hoyt Sherman Place tomorrow, February 14th. Kansas City, Missouri at the Midland Theater this Saturday, February 15th. Then I'm in Asheville, North Carolina at the Orange Peel next Thursday, February 20th. Nashville, Tennessee at the James K. Polk Theater on Friday, February 21st. Louisville, Kentucky at the Bomard Theater on Saturday, February 22nd. Lexington, Kentucky at the Lexington Opera House on Sunday, February 23rd.

Then I'm coming to Oklahoma, Texas, South Carolina, Illinois, Michigan, Toronto, Vermont, New Hampshire, and New York City for my special taping. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets. All right, so here's where I'm at. I've decided, and maybe I've talked about this in conversation. Call me crazy. I'm sure that knowing my audience, though I know there's a separation between, uh,

you know, my audience, generally speaking, in terms of health oriented stuff and, you know, off the grid whack jobs who were, you know, only cooking with tallow, eating lots of butter and probably not getting vaccinated. But, you know, the spiritual kind of new age health community, I'm sure I've got a few members, but, you know, there's, you know, there's an umbrella of those types of people. But I've decided that, look,

Can we talk walnuts for a minute? And then, you know, and I am asking for feedback. And I imagine the subject line will be walnuts. And I talked to my trainer who's pretty well informed and a nutritionist. They all are, you know, on, on, on the spectrum of nutritionist. So walnuts, they're supposed to be good for your heart, good for your brain, good for everything. You know, you look these things up and they're kind of like, wow, these, this is, these are miracle working nuts. A lot of nuts, right?

hazelnuts, brazil nuts, pumpkin seeds. Now, because I've been vegan, and also I'd like to mention that I do wear leather. I do, and I do eat honey. So if I'm not on team you, suck it up. That's the kind of vegan I am. It's not ideological. Some of it is, but most of it is health-oriented. So walnuts. Let's just focus for a minute. Now, these walnuts are supposed to be miracle drugs. And then I figure...

Why not just eat the oil? Like some people use walnut oil for furniture. It's very good for a lot of things. But I started to think, wow, back that walnut oil, if walnuts are so good, why wouldn't walnut oil be good for you?

And so I started putting like a tablespoon of walnut oil in stuff. I have to eat the nuts to get my omegas because I'm, you know, vegan-y. And I make a meal, like I ground up walnuts, pumpkin seeds, a few Brazil nuts and hazelnuts to put in the oatmeal. So I get the full-on omega oil effect. But I've really begun to think, and somebody can, you know, somebody can chime in, you know, some of you sort of armchair people

Supplement professionals. I believe that the walnut oil, which now I'm getting pretty high-end walnut oil, virgin press walnut oil from this place called Corky's. They do this stuff. It's a small operation, I think, but they do walnut oil. This isn't a plug. It's just that I know somebody over there who I knew back in the day who is now involved with it, and they sent me this virgin pressed walnut

walnut oil. It's got a date on the bottle, so you know they mean business. So now I'm just doing straight up walnut oil. And I roasted walnut oil, virgin press, organic walnut oil. And I gotta be honest with you, I think it's affecting...

My joints, I think it's affecting my brain. I believe that it's helping my heart. Now, what proof do I have? The only proof that I really have is right now, like my memory, well, my memory is good, but I do believe it's doing something there. But I do know that I have arthritic big toes and it's been significantly better in the last year. That might just be a vegan diet. It's an inflammation thing, but I've grown to believe that

that pure walnut oil, I take a tablespoon of it a day if I'm drinking it after I work out. And if not, I'm just doing the walnuts in the oatmeal. I think it actually does something. And I can't say that for most supplements. I know a lot of them you're not going to feel, but I believe that the two things that have changed my body chemistry and my body's health are

are this pure walnut oil, which I don't do intravenously. I just mix it in with stuff. And a magnesium, potassium, aspartate vitamin, I think has changed my entire gut health. So that's what I'm positing. That's what I'm saying. That's what I believe, that magnesium, potassium, aspartate, and the walnut oil are,

have had a significant impact on my health. That's what I'm putting out there. Now, I'll hear from you, but no one ever talks about walnut oil as being a thing. Why isn't it a thing? I don't understand why it's not a thing.

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Here's another thing I'd like some input on. Where do we stand on old school soy milk? Like old school. Now, like I've heard all this stuff, you know, I've heard too much soy will, will give me a boobs. Uh, I don't think it's true. I, you know, I would look to China, nothing but soy in China. And there's not a bunch of, you know, uh, you know, I don't, I don't think there's a lot of, um, fully defined man boobs everywhere, but, uh,

I I've been leaning into the old hippie Eden soy brand because it's got protein. So there and it's not there's nothing else in it. There's no gums or fillers or whatever the fuck they just, you know, straight up unsweetened box soy milk. And I think that's also the that's the thing. I guess the reason I'm talking about this is that some people ask, you know, how do you.

How do you, you know, do the vegan thing? Well, a guy named Mitch once told me, and this was about something else. When I asked him how to maintain his weight, he said, I eat the same thing every day. And if you really think about your habits, you kind of do that. And people are like, how do you get this? How do you get that with vegans? And it's like, you just basically eat the same stuff every day, just not meat. I don't need to talk about this.

all day long, but it's just, you know, and it doesn't mean I support RFK as a secretary of health and human services. You know, I'm perfectly comfortable with almost all of Western medicine, but this is dietary stuff. And I know, and I don't like, it's not speaking to me. I don't eat a lot of garbage. And if I do eat garbage, I know when I do, and I'm doing it on purpose. How about a donut? How about a cheeseburger?

There's a place here in LA that does, uh, it's like a knockoff McDonald's all vegan. I think it's called McDaniels or something mixed. I don't know. Whatever. Also Indian food. That's it. People ask me about that. How do you eat vegan on the road? Indian, sometimes Thai. Sometimes there's a vegan place. There's a fucking Indian place right down the street from me. I'm I love Indian food and I hardly ever went to this place down the street and it's amazing. Um,

They've shifted half their menu to be vegan. It's fucking amazing. All India Cafe. Write down on brand. Anyways, look.

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And Mangold, the great thing about directors is when you make a movie and you make big movies and you know what you're doing is that these guys, they can speak to all elements of film and art and literature many times. And in terms of what they're dealing with subject wise history, I mean, the conversations are rich and full. I love it. I talked to Brady Corbett that that'll be upcoming. The guy who directed the brutalist. And that was some,

High level, Dan. High level intellectual gabbing. Same with James. About films. And it's just such a treat to have them in here. Great guy, too. His movie, A Complete Unknown, is playing in theaters. James is nominated for the Best Director Oscar, which he deserves. It's quite a bit of business he pulled off there. It looks great. But there's so much thinking involved.

To really make a movie right and to honor your vision, if you have a vision. That's the difference between like an indie movie that was a good script and people just did whatever they could to get it on camera and somebody with a vision. I've been noticing that.

I've been watching films by just, you know, new directors or indie directors that clearly, you know, don't necessarily have a vision, but they achieved the completion of a film and indie directors that have a vision. And you're like, holy shit, this person has a vision and they've created a space up there on screen. That's kind of miraculous, right?

And James definitely has a vision, creates miraculous space, but the levels of expression and concern that directors have to deal with is pretty profound. But this is me talking to James Mangold. So you can manage...

The anxiety of making a movie. But... Well, it's what I've done all my life. So there's... I mean, I'm sure there's a shit you've done all your life where it's somehow you know how to kind of... Oh, that's... Yeah, sure. Like stand-up or this. Yeah. Yeah, but there is the finite amount of time and you've got the team and you've got the... Yeah, and kind of this stuff is more...

random, rando. It's like, you know, is this a cock? Do you wear a suit to this? Do you, can you be casual? Do you blah, blah, blah. Is there a red carpet? Do you have to do, get there in advance? Do you, you know, and am I taking a car? Am I driving myself? And every day is a new set of just these logistical questions. And that's more exhausting than making a movie. Yeah, because it's, out of making a movie, it's just, you've got AD, well, you know, you've got ADs, they tell you where to be, you get in the damn car.

Yeah. And then you do. You do your shit. Yes. Yeah. Well, that's interesting. I think I should start thinking about thinking about it more like that. So what do you do about just the day to day anxiety? I don't. I just live with it. It's just I mean, it's partly what fuels us, isn't it? But yeah. Yeah. Well, there is that. But then you have those days where you're like, but is it worth it?

Right. But that's life. I mean, that's just, I mean, I think that you ask yourself those questions. All the time? If you're, I think. If you're that guy. If you're that guy. Yeah. If you're awake in the world, you got to ask yourself existential questions. Yeah. Gets a little overwhelming though. And it doesn't seem like, you know, I thought for a minute there, like I was getting older and it was getting better, but I'm not sure. No. No.

I don't know better or worse. I just know that it's constant, but it's also the, the, the, the coarseness of everything is, um,

Disturbing to me. Coarseness. Yeah, that was a very diplomatic sentence somehow. You mean the hell we're living through is existentially upsetting and terrifying every day? Yes, that. But I also mean that the coarseness in the – I feel like we've lost our ability to discuss or argue things.

And that, you know, what are the syllogisms of kind of logic have been thrown out the window. And it's like, it's just a free-for-all of, and I'm not really talking politics alone. I'm talking almost everything. Yeah, somebody wants the idea of shamelessly doubling down politics.

Yes. Was entered into the culture as a way of communicating. It's just all bets are off for, yeah, to try to coexist and have this, you know, this idea that there's compromise and tolerance. Yes. Yeah. Well, those words in and of the, I mean, there's so many things. I mean, it's so, yeah. Yeah.

Even just earnest feeling has become kind of, I mean, within the world we live in that is so snarky that there's a kind of...

Some of the things I most cherish making movies, just feeling the spaces between words, the way people behave, which are fragile things that have a hard time existing in an atmosphere that's charged. Right. Well, but because of that...

I wonder about this all the time because obviously show business has shifted into old school show business has shrunken.

Right.

I don't mean to say it like that, not to be condescending. No, no. I know what you mean. Yeah, exactly. That, you know, I can, you know, for me to be carried through a story or film or something with nuance and poetry, I desperately need it right now. I mean, it's something that I go to.

And the kind of sensory overload. I mean, show business is such a broad word. I don't know how to address it. I mean, I talk about movies, movies and the the the idea that it held a primary cultural place for most people.

Yes. Done. Now it's more the Wild West in terms of... Yeah, yeah. Like, their stuff comes out with big people. And I'm like, I don't know where that is. Where is that? How do you even find it? Yeah, what is that on? Well, it'll be on this for a month, and then you can see it at this other thing. Right. Fuck. Yes. Oh, do I subscribe to that? Did I cancel that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that part of my box thing that I turn on? Well, I mean, I've somehow managed...

or I don't know if it's managed or been stubborn or stuck, but that I just make movies. And movies have a kind of very orderly way of

presenting themselves to the public. Yeah. There's a few weekends where you kind of have this platform. Yeah. Uh, publicity or running around. Yeah. And then it, it lives or dies out in the marketplace. And then it adds us after a couple months finds its way onto these other, you know, uh, and then you hope it lives and you hope it lives. And the,

But there's I'm I have no experience making films, you know, for a streaming service or other modes where I don't even know completely how it works. Like it kind of. Well, I think how it works is like with me. OK, so where I'm at. Yeah. Doing stand up. Right. Right. So I'm old school. I'd like to be paid to do a thing. Right. So, you know, it's like HBO is going to give me money. I'm going to do a special in May. I know how that works.

You go, you tape the thing. Yeah, and they give you the money. Right. And then, you know, okay, so I hope it does well. Right. And I think that's the way that, you know, you were brought up in the business because a lot of people are like, look, we'll make it ourselves and then we'll try to sell it somewhere or we'll just put it up and see who comes. Right.

That to me is like, not only is it risky, but I can't sit there and watch how many people watch a thing on YouTube. It would make me crazy. Well, but in some sense, even, you know, the world of film that we were talking about, John Sayles and Matewan before we started. But the world of independent film, which I came up in originally, my first movie, Heavy, was Sundance movie. Well, a lot of those movies are also could,

fall under the make-it-yourself outside the system. Right, but there was a time where, like, now the idea with that is, like, well, you know, it'd be great if it got on a streamer. I mean, when you did Heavy, you still wanted to be in a movie theater, at least for a month or two. And then there was still, like, this idea that, like, well, there are people like, I like independent film, and I don't know that people can even identify those distinctions anymore. No, that's the part that, to me, is most...

disappointing about what's happened with, you know, if you try and be objective about it and you go, okay, now there's all these platforms to watch movies and shows and any kind of audio visual entertainment. Right. So, but contrary to what you might expect, all this bandwidth doesn't somehow promote, uh,

variation that that independent films have a really hard time finding their way. Sure, because the bandwidth is, you know, has its own. Well, it's just kind of a microcosm of the feature. What's happened in features when it's all about the things everyone has to see and the things, the the mega the mega things of the month or whatever. Right, right. There's a pattern.

Right. But also the other thing is like if you're in a movie theater, you're not – it's not like, yeah, I went to the movies. I watched it for five minutes and left. Well, also there was – what was the streaming network that closed about five years ago that was nothing but old films? And now kind of Criterion has picked up that trend.

Like Turner or no? It was part of, they were using the Turner library. And I think what ended up kind of bringing them down was that Warner's pulled their library from this service. I don't remember what it was called, but the, um, which only makes me sad in and of itself. But what I mean by that is that not just independent new voices, but also the kind of entire literature of movies is hard to find on, on,

You have to look. Given the fact you can watch anything, why is it that you can't? And that the claim is you can kind of see any kind of film at any time. The truth is it's really hard to find...

Old films, particularly, you know, Criterion has a thing where they're kind of have a rotating schedule. And those are pretty, that's heavily curated. Yes, because I think it's a money issue. They can only afford to license so much. That's right. And also like the, that's true. You can't, but also the canon of anything is kind of gone.

I don't know if it's people's interest, but then again, I'm getting old. You and I are like exactly the same age, I think. And, you know, I don't know what the young people are gravitating towards in any general way or what interests them. I do know that there are some young people that are sort of like I was and they go find this stuff. But culturally, I have no fucking idea. No, but I don't. My thing is not that I...

I feel like it's purely kind of these are the must-watch movies or the canonical films, but that it just gets you out of the current fashion. Well, what do you go back to, like movie-wise? Oh, everything. I mean, you could... I could talk and wax about Golden Age Hollywood movies. Wait, I mean, you remade 310 to Yuma, so that must have had an impact. Well, the original had an impact. Yeah, yeah. And that was...

The Western has had a huge impact on me in terms of just how the beauty of the... Well, I guess I'd have to back up. Movies are inherently simple. Although there's a real high density of information, visual and audio, coming at you, that in order to preserve what I love in movies, which is kind of the spaces between things, the spaces between people...

the behavior images. Yeah. You can't plot is the enemy of, of, of poetry, of lyricism. Yes. So the, they're at war with each other as you make a movie. And, and so what's interesting is you construct a film from the ground up is, is you kind of have to make a decision how cluttered this thing is going to be with the

Let's call it plot. Yeah. And Westerns are so – they share this with noir films and samurai films. I think there's a kind of simple universe. That doesn't mean simple. I don't mean simple-minded. Yeah. And I don't mean simple thematically or character-wise, but just less complex.

elaborate plot-wise, and that what happens with the vacuum that's created in a narrative when the story can be told directly

I'm a struggling rancher, and I get the chance for 300 bucks to escort an incredibly dangerous and infamous cattle thief and bank robber to justice. And that 300 may save my farm. Yeah.

Therefore, I am now escorting this incredibly dangerous figure through uncharted territory with his gang stalking us. And at the same time, coming to grips with my own sense of right and wrong. Self-worth. Self-worth. How much am I willing to sacrifice for the public good? Yeah, yeah. For morality. Yeah.

And is that really it? But the reason I could in 12 seconds or less already have gotten to the themes that, for instance, Christian's character or Van Heflin's in the original struggle with is because the story is simple. Yeah. And I don't mean, again, simple dumb. I mean simple like it's not complicated.

That's funny because like on those terms, and you know, you can, I think people say this all the time that, that there, there is an element of a Western to, to the Dylan movie. Yes. I don't, I see almost everything, a complete unknown. I, I, I see, I see the, the Western is a prism through which I, I feel like it helps me get,

extraneous shit out of the story by looking at it through that prism. The Western in a kind of surface way can be identified as a gunfight in the end and everyone's wearing their hats and holsters and there's a saloon. But those are extraneous

Yeah, those aren't really it. Those aren't really it. It's this... Because there is, you know, Yojimbo is a Western. There's no Six Guns. It's usually about a guy. It's about a guy, but it's also just about...

Actually, usually an incredibly complex existential or philosophical issue this person is faced with, which runs almost counter to the perception of Westerns as kind of shoot them up or surface. I just watched. When was the last time you watched Jeremiah Johnson? It's beautiful. It's unbelievable. Yeah. And it's straight up a Western, but he kind of subverted the whole thing.

Like it's not – the guy that Redford plays is a Western character. Of course. But his journey is so different and it's so solitary. Well, it's kind of a – it's a very 70s Western in the sense that it's starting to take kind of modern ideas of who am I? What does life mean? What does life mean? Yeah. And drop them into the context of this kind of –

But I think that if you think about it, I mean, Gary Cooper was struggling with what does life mean in High Noon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Van Heflin is struggling with what does life mean in the original 310 of Yuma. And I hope Christian is in the version I made. But those questions, the beauty of the what am I, how do I fit in question,

Yeah.

And have you always thought this way? I mean, I know... I've loved simple... I mean, my first film, Heavy, was really influenced by the work of Yasujiro Ozu, who never made a Western, but told character stories with a kind of, I mean, precision or focus on performance, but also...

on the visual, meaning that there's, to me, there's kind of a world of performance-oriented movies where the machinery of...

production, motion picture production, is really used to record the performances. In a sense, it's no different than what we're doing right now. There's all this gack on set to record wherever the actors wander and whatever happens. That's not as personal. I love films, Cassavetes. There's films like that that are just kind of like, whatever happens, shoot it, follow it. That's never been personally

my focus i'm always trying to go how can you get that lovely mess the beauty like i'd use a movie like on the waterfront is a beautiful visual piece as well as so there's the mess the kind of sense of volatile unpredictability about the performances yet the thing has also a kind of

Sure. And that sometimes I always think that the trick you get into, and I thought about it, I certainly think about it when I make films involving musicians, and I can tell you why in a moment. But this aspect of recording something that's interesting versus the camera investigating, framing, and participating in something that still, my hope is, feels as unruly as

or improvisational or unpredictable if I were just chasing actors with cameras. But I don't want to chase actors with cameras. I want it also to feel like there's this harmony or this kind of sense that the filmmaker knows what they're doing, but at the same time, there's a kind of

Well, doesn't that come down to the it seems that when I've worked in as an actor or behind the camera in the small amount of time I've done it.

That really the gift of any director is you harness all this stuff and then, you know, you do however many takes you're going to do. But you've got to know instinctively when when you say like that's the one. Yes. But you also have to know, is it the one in the right shot? Meaning is that that's where the visual side comes to bear, which is that you can you can.

I think the most tricky thing, you know, when I teach, when I've done, you know, Sundance or film schools or whatever, and when I talk to younger directors, the most important thing, directing is kind of terrifying, particularly for young directors, because you make a plan, and you might have thought about this plan before.

For years, maybe a decade, you've got this in your head, right? Yeah. You've written it. You've rewritten it. You've got notes. You've been told no. You go back. You write it again. You do storyboards. You think. You see a movie. You revise. You have this plan. Yeah. And you're alone, essentially, with your plan. Right. And then suddenly...

In prep, the chaos begins, and then you land on this set, and now you have all these collaborators. Yeah. And if you're holding too tight to the plan, to the specifics of the plan, these exact shots, this exact way, well, there can be a kind of beauty to that, but you are, in a sense, your own hostage, meaning that you are ruling out...

Okay. Wow. I saw this whole scene in this building looking this way, but the sun's breaking through the windows on this morning that way. Yeah. And it's stunning and evocative. Yeah.

But if I do that, my storyboards are out the window. Fear, panic, loathing. I have to lead this whole group of 150 people. What do you do? Now I don't have my fucking map anymore. Or my actor comes up with an idea and this – I had it all built upon this player staying at the bar while this player crossed to the window. And now this one is saying, why am I going to the window? This one. Or the other one is going, I –

I feel like I'm losing the scene here at the bar. I feel like I'm just doing it because you told me to. And, and,

And these are, you can look at these as a kind of, um, uh, mutiny in which, which sometimes it can feel like, like you're just, what you had planned to do is falling through your fingers through all this kind of special orders. You know, can I have soy in that? Can I, and suddenly you don't even know how to run your coffee shop anymore. But there is another way I think to think about directing, which is you make your plan.

And then you look at your plan and you go, what is the plan? Yeah. Beyond the specifics. Oh, I see. I want to hinge. I want Mark sitting here so I can hinge off his looks to the other characters. I want to be in his point of view. Yeah. And...

I, um, the other characters are exist at a distance. This one you'll see through the food slot in the kitchen and this one you'll see pulling in through the window. And so now how do you take that plan? And I turned to you on the set and I go, I get, you don't want to sit at the bar mark, but here's what I need. I want to hinge this scene off your looks to the cook in the kitchen and to, uh, your wife arriving in the parking lot. And I need somewhere to put you where I don't, where you have sight lines to these things.

And that's the moment that you identify architecturally what you need without being a slave to the exact...

you drew in a vacuum before you got there. And someone like you, I'll bet, and now you can tell me, if I say that to you, that seems reasonable. Right, I'm not going to be like, well, I still don't know why I'm sitting here. No, but you can sit somewhere else, meaning it now becomes our shared problem to go, where can we put you that you can solve your problems and I can still have my...

So you have to leave it open for collaboration or else you're going to get into... Without losing your North Star, without losing your map, meaning you still want to drive to Glendale. Yeah. I may be going a different way. Right. But I need to... And you can't let your actors or your DP or anyone subvert the fact that you need to get to Glendale. So that's where...

That's where I think it's hardest for a young director not to panic because the cacophony of ideas on a set can end up

driving you to San Francisco when you wanted to go to Gundale. And you've been convinced that it's practical and it's what we should do. You just, you just, but, but that for me, it's always being able to identify what the North star, what is the movie about? Right. Because I find that I've never met a DP or an actor who won't respond to, and even make themselves an advocate.

an ally to carrying your largest purpose forward. Usually what they're struggling with is some specific that you're asking them to do that is, is, doesn't feel right. The other thing to do sometimes I do is I, I actually ask my actor to step off their mark and I try and do what I'm asking them to do, which, which,

And I suddenly realized, oh, this is awkward. Awkward, yeah, yeah, yeah. And because you can suddenly sense what – why am I having them turn 180 degrees and their drink is on this side and the da-da-da. And it's like who would sit like this when this person is over there. And you realize this is all servicing these sketches I made. Yeah.

But there's another thing that even happens, which is you get on set and you put your sketches into action and you line them up. And you actually, if your eyes are open as a photographer or as an eye, that these aren't the best shots for this scene as it exists with these faces in this light. But that part of the reason we cling to this is that there's this kind of...

I probably mainly created by Hitchcock. There's a kind of a reigning idea of vision, right? Yeah. That we all have as filmmakers, artists, we have a vision. Yeah. And then we make our film and all these people get in the way of our vision, the financiers, the executives, the actors, the, the crew who don't see our vision. Right. And, and,

I see my job almost entirely as kind of a brain in a jar that talks. And my main responsibility is to evangelize. You could call it vision, but it's not necessarily every shot exactly like this. It's what is the broader agenda of

Of the movie. Here's to be specific. Like, I made this movie, Walk the Line, 20 years ago with Joaquin Phoenix and Reese Witherspoon, Johnny Cash movie. And what was so interesting to me about their story, and particularly his, was the ways that it told the story primarily of two people falling in love and

But what was so interesting to me, spatially, filmically, however you want to describe it, was they fell in love on stage.

Yeah. And so that's kind of already a kind of contradiction. Like love is almost defined by intimacy. Yeah. But the stage is defined by massive exposure. Okay. But at the same time, anyone who's spent any time on a stage knows there is a kind of intimacy on stage. Heightened. Yes. That if you're with someone on stage, there's a kind of connection you have with them that is extemporaneous.

And focused. Yes. And that the people in the audience in a way vanish.

Or they're omnipresent as witnesses to this kind of intimacy. This makes sense, right? Okay. So that became this really interesting place where I go, I haven't seen that in a movie, at least. And it's really interesting to me, this aspect of two people, partly because they were married to others and partly because they...

met and kind of vibed on stage, fall in love literally in front of 10,000 people every night, and then have to kind of fold up their love relationship and return to their other domestic lives, only to return to this relationship. It's like it's for two, three hours a day they connect. And that it ultimately, in real life, ended up with Johnny Cash proposing to...

to June Carter on stage. Well, that's interesting because, you know, as somebody who spends time on stage, everything, the focus, the world of focus you're in on stage is so heightened and so specific that whether what's around you quiets down or not, there's a singleness of emotion. You know, like it's almost pure. Yes. And so to capture that, because I sort of, because there was a bit of that as well in Complete Unknown.

Yes. That the dynamic that unfolds with Joan and Bob, you know, is very specifically kind of comes to life on stage. Yes. But privately. See, now here's where. So this is connecting, Mark, to a point I was making about kind of directorial strategy. Right. So when I made Walk the Line, and then I'll bring this to a complete unknown. Yeah.

It occurred to me that to try, because this is like how I feel about my job. My job is to somehow photograph this unspoken thing we're just talking about. This kind of contradictory to normal logic. This intimacy that runs contradictory to normal logic. Which is that intimacy means alone. But in this case, it's the opposite. It's under the gaze of 10,000 students.

Sure. But yet intimate. So that becomes a really interesting thing to try to photograph because it's, first of all, triangles, threes. It's always more one-to-one. It's kind of a ping-pong match. But the second that audience is involved, the thing becomes –

more complex because there's three people involved, one being an audience and then the two, in this case, being on stage. Now it's more complicated because these connections or moves or, uh,

between the two are all being witnessed and commented on by this kind of unseen and through the haze of the spotlight. And felt. And felt by others. Yeah. And judged by others. Or even misperceived or missed. Some of it, you know...

very cinematic thing is something the two people know is going on that none of them know is going on. But also that unspoken thing between people that you're talking about in the beginning that transcends plot and is the meat of the thing, the possibilities become so amplified.

Yes. Right. And because an audience feels whatever, they may not understand what they feel. So how do you translate all the things we're talking about right now into a visual plan that isn't necessarily shot to shot like drawn out? But I mean, I did board, but only to kind of try and solve this question for myself. What it occurred to me was that every concert film we ever see is

Most of the cameras exist for a variety of logistical and aesthetic reasons in kind of the premium seat, if you will. To capture the performance. From the audience's point of view. Yeah, yeah, yeah. From like third, fourth row center or tracking back and forth from that row or whatever it is, kind of capturing how a comedy special would be shot. But-

The reason you wouldn't shoot it with the camera, like let's use you doing a show. The reason you wouldn't have a camera literally on your shoulder breathing down your neck, looking over your shoulder as you sip and check your notes is because, A, it would, well, that might be cool, actually. I like it. But the reality is that the reason people don't do it is it's a break of the default.

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

When you make a movie, you're not doing that. So I'm thinking, how do I...

enter this arena, this bubble, this intimate bubble on the stage where you are with the performers. And so how does this translate? So when I was scouting that movie 20 years ago, the location scouts would bring me to all these theaters in Tennessee, old theaters where we would do one concert or another, and they'd show me what it looks like from the audience. And I'd be like, instinctually, I'd go, you know, I don't really care what it looks like from the audience.

Can we go on stage? And I'd go, what do the wings look like? What do the backstage, what do the backings look like? What does the audience look like from the stage? Because what I wanted to encourage everyone to think about on my crew and my actors was that this was a movie where the camera and the storytelling was going to live on.

on the stage, not where a concert film lives. Right. And that we were going to be in kind of French overs or kind of in with the actors around the mic. Yeah. And we were going to feel what the audience doesn't see sometimes going on the friction, the connection. Yeah. The slight, whatever, whatever warbles of drama that are going on between the characters. Yeah. That, that,

create tension because the audience is unaware of the depth of what's going on and what just happened in the wings or who's in the wings watching that the audience can't even see. Now I have all this tasty cinematic shit, right? I have who's backstage, who's watching, what's going on between them on stage. How much does the audience know of what they're feeling on stage and

It's much more loaded than if I were living watching a kind of Disney Hall of Presidents recreation of a famous concert. And also like, you know, so that what's, I guess, prescient on your part is that however long you're working on the Dylan movie, you got all the tools that you needed. You knew you could do everything.

that you could have the language that you just talked about because it was in place. Yes, meaning I was building off of a confidence I had. I mean, on many levels, like encouraging the cast to sing themselves, all of that, because I had all the same people on this movie going, what if he can't do it? What if he can't sing it? What if he can't play it? And I'd be like, well, you're never going to find out if you don't try. And you've got guys like Joaquin and like Timmy.

that'll go deep. So, you know, they're going to figure it out. Yes. Well, that's the point. It's like I'm like a coach of a major team and I have to expect my players to reach high, right? That's kind of the whole point is lowering the bar when you have the best players. It would be raising it to where they're uncomfortable and have a challenge. But the point I was making about directing to whatever degree it's interesting is that

So that whole philosophy doesn't translate into an exactitude about where I'm going to be

the shots I must have, sometimes they're those, but that that strategy is a strategy that converts well to an actor's mind, to my DP's mind, meaning they understand what I'm trying to say with the camera and its relationship with the actors. And the actors understand, oh, I know how I can mine shit out of that. If the camera's here, you're going to see stuff you'd never see if you're frontal on me at the mic. So you got to stay open a little bit.

You got to stay open a little bit, but I never let go of that idea. And that idea translates into a kind of visual game plan that then hopefully gets you both the mess of live performance or what you feel like is something where you're

It hasn't been worked out to the T. There's a kind of beautiful random blossoming to the acting, but also it's in a beautiful frame that's correct or right or feels right for that moment. That's kind of very old school thing I'm always kind of chasing when I'm making movie. The difference that's interesting to me between A Complete Unknown and Walk the Line is at another narrative level, which is that

Walk the Line is really a story of, it's a love story, but it's also a story of addiction and psychological trauma. Yeah. And that, that, that, and, and in that way, the narrative fits in a fairly well-established, uh,

Yeah. Establishing the trauma of the young man, seeing it carrying with him, um, seeing him getting seduced into kind of self medicating to get through what, what he doesn't want to deal with in his past or in his heart or, or that's plaguing him. Um,

and then kind of the classical, you know, ordinary people, goodwill hunting, walk the line sequence where the character confronts the demons that haunt them. Right. And by speaking their name in a sense, uh,

eclipses them to one degree or another or gains control over those things which he didn't have control. A beautiful story and one that I don't think will ever get tired. It's a part of human life. But I didn't feel that in terms of writing

and directing a movie about Dylan. It's like the opposite. I didn't feel, well, at first I was like, well, what if he doesn't have a secret? You know, I wrote this scene in Girl Interrupted a long time ago. Other movie I made that takes place in a mental institution. It was a scene that ended up being played by Angelina Jolie and Winona Ryder. And I just thought of this, that in that scene,

Angie's character confronts Winona's character who's new at the mental institution. And it's an hour after her first therapy at the institution. And I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember it exactly. But Angie says something to Winona like, so did you cough up a big one? And Winona is kind of confused by this. And she goes, a secret. Did you tell them your secret? Yeah.

And Winona's character says something like, "I don't understand." And Angie's character goes, "You need to cough up a secret or else they don't let you out." If you cough up a secret, they think you've confessed and kind of will eclipse the very thing I described. It's kind of like- - The self-awareness. - The psychological, the business of psychology is almost built on the same narrative, if you will, or at least that's what I was presenting in this. And Winona's character in the scene goes, "Well, what if you don't have a secret?"

And and I think Angie's response is something more than you're fucked. Yeah. And but that's always been interesting to me. Like, yes, it's very convenient and manageable in a in a dramatic narrative to kind of isolate the trauma of someone's life. Yeah. And then kind of.

navigate their journey to kind of getting in grips with it. But what if the trauma is either a, or the burden or the load they're carrying as a character? What if it's complex to the point that it can't be reduced to, um, one specific or kind of, uh, uh, one kind of hazing or torture or trauma? Yeah. What if it's,

more of an equation or what if it isn't even, what if, I mean, this is a lot of what seventies and eighties psycho, what if it's chemical? What if it's, what if it isn't even trauma at all? What if it's a kind of your burden is who you are and how you're wired. Yeah. And, and the narrative has had a struggle kind of, uh,

telling stories like that because it defeats, in a way, we have a very kind of Aristotelian desire for kind of the simple thing that's going to get revealed. For stories. For stories point of view, that there's something from the past that's impacting the present, and the second they solve the shit from the past, the present opens. Yeah. But...

As I began working, both talking to Dylan and writing and researching, it kept occurring to me that either what if what's unusual about him is more hardwired than trauma-inspired? Well, that was the biggest trick of that movie for me in terms of Dylan is that Chalamet was able to play –

that you never know with Dylan if it's being intentionally mysterious or being, you know, or if it's a gimmick, you know, that when he says things that are cryptic or seemingly snarky, but there's something about Dylan not talking where you're like, oh my God, what the fuck is going on in there? Yeah, it's so interesting because I...

Part of this is when you write about someone and you get to meet them and spend time with them and they're very pleasant and, and, and, and enthusiastic and you, and you also are appreciating in a way, of course, like the, I go on a deep dive in his work making movie like this and you are kind of inundated by the, by the depth and power and prolific nature of his work. Um, uh,

You begin to get very empathic toward them in the sense that the easy kind of adjectives that are used in the kind of TV guide versions of describing them, enigmatic, mysterious, arrogant, difficult, you know, become too easy. Well, the risk of being of building an empathic relationship with that guy is that I would imagine is that then you're in you're out to sea.

in a way that you can feel it, but you're, you're still, I can't, you feel like you could put your, well, I don't mean empathic. Like I don't have objectivity to see when he's an asshole or what. No, no, no. I just mean to get into that quiet part of Dylan must've been sort of exciting. It just kind of happened. It was exciting, but it, it, it, at first, at first,

What I did creatively on the screenplay level was make this kind of mandate to myself that I wasn't going to do the kind of story we were just discussing for Walk the Line, the kind of classic trauma. But really, it isn't there, though, that you could identify. Of course. Of course. So the – well, but this is going to come full circle because I kind of think there is a trauma. But now that I – but it's kind of interesting. But let me get there, which is that the –

I wanted to do one of my great teachers was Milos Forman, who made the film out of Peter Schaeffer's great play Amadeus, which is ostensibly the Mozart story, although it's really. Yes, but it's really the Salieri story or other, which is a really interesting and profound and and and brilliant story.

narrative repositioning, meaning the title character is not who you're kind of tracking closest. And I found that strategy to be really inspiring for tackling Dylan's story, particularly for these years, because I felt like it freed me, at least in the beginning of the writing, from having to diagnose him as opposed to viewing him as a kind of

and wonderful miracle. Yeah.

So there's not essentially a Salieri, but there's many people around him. There's a consortium of Salieris, none of which are experiencing, I mean, I wasn't trying to mimic. No jealousy, necessarily. Well, I think envy is a part of it, but I think. But not paralyzing. No, I think it was more, I think there were, as much as that, there's also people falling in love with Dylan or Mozart for their talent. Yeah. Or becoming, or forcing them to ask themselves questions about themselves and

or their own work. All of that became really ripe to me and really interesting and was my first effort on the script was to kind of, and that's how, by the way, I ended up meeting Dylan, was I really dove into Joan and Suze Rotolo and

Albert Grossman and, of course, Pete Seeger, because I thought there was so much dramatic juice in these characters. Well, that's interesting because then the onus isn't on you or Tim to explain himself.

Yes. But the, but the, but what, and that became really fruitful. Yeah. But I caused alarm bells to go off in the Dillon camp because, um, they read my script. Yeah. And we're like, this, that this is not the mandate we had wanted for this movie. We wanted this to be about the music, not about Bob's personal life. And we're interesting. And I was like, I don't know how to do that. Yeah. Like, I don't know how to make a movie that's just about the music. Uh, uh,

And COVID hit and kind of killed the movie for the near term anyway. Was this before you had focused on this one particular time or was that always the arc? That was always the arc. There was always the arc, but the anticipation, like the book, Elijah Wald book, is not really – doesn't really delve into the personal. But to put the book –

into film form without that other stuff, to me, would have been a crime. Like, it would have removed the music from all context. Would have taken the heart out of the movie. Well, at least as I saw it. So we were at a kind of moment of tension or impasse, and then COVID hit and in a sense made it irrelevant. And then about two months into COVID, this is 2020, COVID,

I get a call from Bob's manager who goes, well, you know, Bob's tour was canceled. I'm like, okay. And he goes, so he asked to read the script. Yeah. And I go, okay. And he goes, and he likes it.

And, and so suddenly the team, team Bob had completely changed because Bob was at a different point of view than what they had anticipated. Yeah. And, and he goes, and he'd like to meet you. So then that became a series of meetings with Dylan where we discussed the script and his life and this period and a million other things. But the point being, um,

Then I suddenly had license to go to places that his team had said I couldn't. And you had read, had you read that autobiography? His? Yeah. Yes. Because like as odd as that book is, the details of that time are so clear. Yes. And, but then I got the in-person version. Sure. And the, and I got to ask the questions directly to,

about all the figures in the movie and about his feelings about that time. Like what, Von Ronk and all those people? No, I mean, Von Ronk didn't figure so heavily in this narrative, so that... He's like in the movie for a second. Yes, but like Seeger, I mean, we talked about all of them, but Seeger and Baez and certainly Suze, who is called Sylvie in the movie. And Guthrie. And Guthrie and all of that, but also him. What I wanted to know is, what he doesn't talk about much is...

And how did that feel? What did that feel like? What do you remember about what that felt like? And you could get that out of him? He wasn't resistant at all. He wasn't... I didn't find... I mean, my...

four or five meetings with him, which were hours and hours long. I, I didn't feel like I was the one who was probably cutting it off. Like there was a point where I felt like, you know, he was never going, we're done. Or there was no one watching. There was no one listening. There was no one controlling. It was the two of us in an empty coffee shop for hours on end. And this is an,

an older man with memories that doesn't have anything, you know, there, I would imagine that he has, and I don't know if he ever thought this way, but yeah, he has nothing to lose really. No. Well, of course there's something to lose in the sense that, that this is going to be a large scale. Sure. Sure. High profile. I mean, to tell the stories.

No, I think he has enough distance that he's comfortable talking about them. But I also think he was also honest in what he doesn't know. I mean, he really even as of 2020 when I was talking to him about this, didn't really understand what—

why everyone freaked out so much and why, meaning there was a level... At the time. Yes, which you could say is disingenuous with historical perspective looking back. Right. But when you transport yourself, as I had with the research, into that moment, you're kind of... It does occur to you that...

There's a whole series of interpersonal bargains and agreements and commitments that have been made and set in place between these characters that would make Bob confused. For instance, Bob never promised not to play rock and roll. He never... I mean, one thing he was very clear to me about was that he never... The way we each imagine our careers when we're 18, 19 years old, he never imagined himself as being...

The musician he imagined in his mind's eye was, sure, Woody Guthrie, but also Buddy Holly. Sure. Sure, Pete Seeger, but also Little Richard. Yeah, why wouldn't you? He carried all of that in his mind on his way to New York. So the idea from the moment he took the stage at Gertie's Folk City or the Gaslight that he had –

According to some kind of dogma or tribunal kind of pledge. Folk dogma. Yeah. That he had pledged to never make something different in his life was completely bizarre to him. And he would never, I mean, and he,

And he had never made such a commitment in his mind. His point of view about his ascendance as a folk star in a solo act was that that's what happened. And therefore, of course, I had no money and no notoriety. And so I took what happened. But what's also interesting in what you're saying about what he's carrying as he heads to New York, what he was also carrying was complete control of

of what he did. He didn't have a band. He wasn't on a bus. He didn't have a drummer that drank. He didn't have a manager or a producer. He had the guitar. He had the beauty of total singularity. Yes. And so that's interesting because then he becomes a collaborative artist

you know, by not by default, but by the gravity of him. One of the most beautiful and honest things I think he was telling me in these sessions was the reason he wanted to make music with a band was because he felt lonely. Yeah. Right. Right.

I'm in a kind of loneliness. I'm sure you understand. Well, that's interesting because that's the silence. Yes. He described it. He said, you're alone in the car on the way to the show. You're alone on the stage in the spotlight. You're alone when it ends and you're alone when you're writing the material. And that at some point he was looking at some people he admired and Johnny Cash, Richard, the Beatles. Sure. None of them were alone. Yeah. They had... And...

And that I thought this married to something else going on for him at the same time, which was that all the relationships he did have in the folk community with his ascendance to this kind of megastar level had become quite transactional or at least tainted with transactionality, meaning everyone had an agenda. They needed him to appear here. And also a politics within the community. Of course. Yeah. So he felt suddenly not only...

Yeah.

that I think made him yearn for just company. And that was, I mean, that was what he said to me was the primary reason to wanting to get in a room with other musicians was to play and to not feel any of, in a way that I seemed so pure and easy to understand. And, uh, and, um,

And therefore, this movement toward electric and toward a band didn't come from someone going, I'm going to turn the historical, the culture, I'm going to make cultural history today. And more so, I...

I saw Newport as the script took shape and these conversations took shape as a kind of Thanksgiving dinner run amok in a family that had been living with some tightly held beliefs. And the prodigal son wasn't going to live with them anymore. He couldn't. He had to break from dad, break from sister, break from everyone. This was the night he gave the.

big angry speech at Thanksgiving and got in the car and drove off. And that, and that, that it ended up making history was a beautiful and interesting, uh,

additional observation, but that to dramatize it and to help actors make it come to life, I felt like what was so wonderful coming from Dylan himself was the sense of the extremely personal feelings that were driving all this for everyone. Yeah. Like how uncomfortable for Pete Seeger that, that,

He's this... I mean, Seeger and Dylan are such different artists, which is so interesting to evaluate. You know, Seeger probably wrote a handful of songs in his whole life where Dylan has written over 600, 700 songs. The...

Of humongous importance to the culture and hits. And that, well, what is the difference? Seeger's focus was building a movement, was changing the world. Yeah, political populism. And literally affecting change through music, through community and music and the way music binds us together, which is all beautiful. Yeah.

was much more a pure artistic, even narcissistic journey, which is I want to express myself through my shit, through my heart. Thank God for the beatniks. Right. And that the... So you almost have them destined for a kind of conflict from the moment they're bound together because two...

To Pete, Bob is not just an incredibly talented artist, but an instrument for elevating the movement and advancing the movement. To Bob, Pete is a stage and a platform for which to get started in this world as an artist and to find an audience and to find a community. But the goals, the agendas of each character were never alike. Right.

And that therefore, and Joan, to one degree or another, was very much bought into the folk dogma. Yeah. Many of the artists of that, most of the arguments and discussions be, what is folk? What isn't folk? Well, why wouldn't you want to be part of a context that,

through which you knew how to rise. You know, like once you lock in, I mean, whether you believe folk music is the big powerful change it is, it's certainly like, well, if I play this, I can play at this place and I'll be on the same stage as these people. And, you know, I have a certain amount of intention and I believe enough that

But I think all artists are a little selfish. Maybe, you know, some more so than others, maybe. Or maybe what drives them is essentially more internal than others. But I think it's interesting what you're pointing out is that Dylan, you know, was unbounded in his desire to express himself more.

you know, however it was going to come. And, and, and, but, and I don't necessarily see that as arrogance. No, no, kind of like any one of us. Sure. I don't, I'm, I identify in my own humble way with it. I've made movies of a lot of different genre. I'm always, I've made independent Sundance films. I've made gigantic studio pictures. Yeah.

From where I sit, the experience is awfully similar. I'm not sure if you find it that different, but you essentially have to get in a space with a camera, make a scene seem real. The core tasks at hand don't change much. But also you have in your own sort of lexicon of –

that inspired you. It's not unlike, you know, Buddy Holly and Woody Guthrie. There's a full spectrum of people who express themselves and have made a mark. So why limit yourself to any one? So what was so intriguing to me about the story of this period for Dylan and why I thought, because I didn't want to make, I'm not, I wasn't such a Bob Dylan super fan that I was like driven to make a Bob Dylan movie. Well, that's helpful. Always, even me, when I talk to people, it's better if you're not

a super fan. It will, it will screw you up. Yes. And the, what you always want to do, like I was describing about walk the line is how does the movie eclipse the kind of the recreation of history and, and characters to be about something bigger than just, I mean, obviously audiences and press are going to describe this movie as the Bob Dylan story. You're going to describe the other one is that, but if it, if the movie is going to have any kind of transcendence, uh,

It's got to be about something more than just an historical recreation of scenes from this artist's life. Well, yeah, you found the story. And the story in this case is not about all this stuff is interesting in the folk dogma and the community versus the self and all. But where it gets interesting is when it starts to become not about Bob and about, well, what is an artist's duty?

Are you part of a movement or are you listening to your own voice? But even more importantly, and this is where I try and get full circle with what we were talking about earlier when I was saying Bob didn't have a kind of visible or obvious trauma that I could see. I did – it did start to occur to me that there was one, which was –

genius itself or, or let's call it intense talent because the word genius is so creates such a reaction is so polar, but let's just say someone who is intensely talented, who's touched who's,

Which you have to see Dylan as given the, the, the, yeah, it's a rare thing. You can't even, he doesn't know where the songs were. That's why that beautiful interview he did with, with Bradley. It's great. You know, I don't know where it came from. And the honesty of it is beautiful. And, and, um,

But that in itself could be a kind of trauma, meaning that let me certainly in terms of loneliness. Yes. Right on. Yeah. It separates him from everybody else. Right. It means that he's tuned into a station that no one else is hearing. Yeah. And.

And it means that as they – as he's living his life, part of his brain is tuned into that thing and part of him is present with them. Trying to be present. Trying to be present. Yeah. And the struggle becomes a kind of how do I nurture this thing which is –

not only keeping me alive, but making me a star and pleasing people around the world, but also stay present and intimate and with those around me. And how do I navigate that? And I'm, my behavior is in a sense being evaluated by those who,

who don't have that secondary voice in their head. And it's ever-present, and I imagine in your interpretation, probably consuming. Yes, and also gives him the most pleasure, meaning that as success drives forward and most relationships become transactional and people want success,

from him. Yeah. What is the purest place he can retreat? And this is something any artist can identify with, that solitude with your voice. In his case, a voice that is so acute and so intense, such a lightning bolt at that moment. The work is coming so fast. How rewarding to be a vessel with that kind of

of electricity running through you. How could you not retreat into that? And how does one then navigate being alive and present in the world with your friends and lovers and business compatriots and whatever, and also tuned into that thing that none of them have and

But even worse, some of them resent. Or to them feels like hokum or a mystery or what does it even exist. Trying to put you in a box. And that to me became...

Let's not call it a trauma, but a problem the character had to navigate. Well, I like the way he shot some of that where he's like that becomes the primary relationship, even when he's among people and he's just writing. It's like, all right, I'll leave, you know, like whatever. And one thing Timothy and I talked a lot about was how... Because, you know, it's hard to tell an actor to play a condition, arrogance, aloof, pessimistic.

There is no such thing as aloof if you're playing it as an actor, meaning no one is aloof. Where is the aloof? Where are you? Meaning you have to be somewhere else. But to play that, you need to identify where are you that isn't here? And that became what I just described became for Timothy and I at least one kind of tool to help him maintain a secondary identity.

active brain life and emotional life in every scene that, in a sense, was leaving everyone else out. So you explained to him... We talked a lot about it. ...about this other world that Bob was a vessel. Well, but it's also... But it's also, I don't view myself... Timmy was also doing... We did... I mean, he was with me on this for almost five and a half years of work on...

He was, in learning the music, in entering Bob through the music, which is largely what he did, I think he was encountering from his own end. I mean, I was telling him all I had learned from Dylan and all I was observing, but I think he was absorbing on his own end a kind of...

similar observation, which is these streams of thought and music could only come to someone what that only comes to him between like he's nine to five punches o'clock and, and you know, it's, it's when it comes, it comes and you gotta, you gotta write it down and it doesn't matter if you're in your girlfriend's bedroom or if you're, if it's 3am or, or you're in your dressing room, shit's got to stop for you to get this down because it's good. And, and,

And that struggle, that tension internal, as you said, became a way to not play aloof as a condition, arrogance as a condition, but to play, well, it's not arrogance. I'm actually carrying on. I'm actually trying to be polite to my other conversation as well.

Yeah. Meaning I'm trying to be polite to two simultaneous conversations and probably failing my creative voice at times. Yeah. And definitely failing my interpersonal life at times. Well, that's a brilliant point.

And now, you know, it explains a lot to me on how he approached that role. What was interesting in talking about, you know, your love of Amadeus is that Foreman did that amazing audio montage. Yes. With Salieri looking at the unfinished pieces. Yes. We're hearing them. Yes. In his head. Yes. And that explained everything.

Yeah. And, you know, that was the way he managed that. And in many ways, I, you know, I feel like I mean, some of it's silent in the sense that you're just drawing it off. Sure. Edward Norton's eyes or Monica Barbaro's eyes. You're just looking at these people and you're seeing them.

Not just admiration, but there's all sorts of thoughts they're having as they watch this, which I think is really interesting, which is that Salieri energy, which doesn't have to get to murderous jealousy. Right. You can just get to a sense of one's own limits in the face of one who has less of them. Right.

And one is forced, as we all are at moments, to confront people who have broken through something. I know. It's hard for a creative person. It's hard. And it can be both inspiring, but it can also take you off track. Like you can start trying to do what they're doing. Have you had that moment? Of course. Like with who? Yeah.

Well, watching old films, it's easy to be at peace with it. But watching, no, I remember watching Boogie Nights and just going, holy fuck, he is brilliant. Yeah. And Paul. Yeah. And feeling utterly dwarfed by the courage for him to leap into the kind of the world he was leaping into. And then the way he was being portrayed.

about it and kind of like it was... Empathetic. Empathetic. Yeah. In a world that had only been kind of treated with a kind of judgment. Yeah. And there was... I remember that. I mean, I can remember even as a...

I mean, it's kind of amazing that my life has taken me to befriending some of these people, but like, or Spielberg on another side. Oh, my God. You know, you watch the Close Encounters of the 39 or Jaws or I just recently saw the first half hour of Saving Private Ryan. Oh, my God. And the...

And it's just like, or there's someone put up a scene he did in Munich or because I did the Indiana Jones movie. I'm watching his staging, like just the beauty of his blocking and staging. And it's awe inspiring. There's moments where you're like,

How did he do that? And it's not that it's complicated. It's that it's so crystalline and pure. And that drives us. I think the place where you can always get screwed up as an artist is you can't be what they are. Sure. You have to be what you are. And that can be hard under the pressure of that. And it may be what you are will never hit.

like what they are. But you can't be what you are. I have to be what I am. Right. Yeah. And maybe it will, meaning that Stephen never knew whether his particular outlook in the world was going to explode. Paul never knew. You just do it. And we also never know how long it's going to hold or whether it's momentary or just this movie. We all live with that fear of,

the world is filled with artists who have their moment and then that moment goes away and, and, and they're still artists. And, and, but the, so. I think you did do something amazing with this though. Thank you. In terms of like, you know, to make that story and to make that, that character, you know, live and be appealing to people of all ages, like the number of young people that,

are, you know, taken with that story and also taken with the reality of Dylan is pretty phenomenal. It's pretty cool. I mean, it's like, I don't know if you could have ever anticipated that. No. The only other thing I ever, I ever thought when I was making it, it was, it was a movie you speak. We started talking about Westerns. It was a move. And, and you talked about how it might apply to this. And it's a really good observation. The simplicity in shooting style. Yeah. I shot it in,

In a way, I felt like Bob is such... My whole cast and the world is so eccentric in the film, in a way. Yeah. So rich. And their world is so rich in style. Yeah.

their uniforms. You got that right. Thank God. You know, you got that perfect time in the sixties to where the clothes were cool. You didn't have to be bogged down by psychedelic bullshit. And it was so, well, it's early sixties. I know. That's what I mean. Totally. Yeah. Because like all of that stuff, it's about to change when our movie, that's right. And it's like, this was the last cool time. No. Dylan had a great observation about that, which he said, he said to me, you know,

The 60s, there really was no 60s. He said the 60 to 65 was an extension of the 50s. Yeah. And 66 on was really the 70s. Well, that's because they were still wearing the clothes of the late 50s. Yes. They were just making them their own with a different idea. And musically and artistically, what was happening, the beats and the... It was all 50s and in music. And then it all went upside down. But the temptation...

Like a lot of my collaborators on the movie, when they came on, it's like, are we going to do this super grainy and kind of handheld like a Maisel's film? And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I was like, I feel like putting too much...

directorial overt style on a movie about characters who were so style positioned already would be like a hat on a hat on a hat. Yeah. And that in a way I wanted to observe that.

and to watch and to be focused more. I tried to, you know, another real icon for me and a kind of touchstone for me is like Ilya Kazan. I mentioned Waterfront, but also East of Eden. It's a great movie. So that Technicolor or whatever that was. And widescreen. Yeah. And the way, I love the way close-ups, you have these kind of asymmetrical close-ups where you have this really

obviously wide screen. So a face, you don't want to plop it in the center with kind of these two big wings coming off. So it's kind of the closeups get asymmetrical or you end up with these incredibly beautiful two faces within the rectangle anyway, blah, blah, blah. But the, the, it was really interesting to me to try to just land in the world and

And to let us try and experience that world and to hope the camera was ferreting out some of what we've been talking about without spelling it out verbally, but just seeing it. I thought it was perfect that color. Thank you. And I have to assume, though, because, you know, I can see your passion for New York.

And I assume you grew up there. Yeah, I went. Well, I was born in the Lower East Side in New York in 63. Yeah. And there's something that never leaves New York and may have almost left at times. I have since memory, I think, of the late 60s and the pickle barrels and the salesman and the Hebrew bookstores and just that.

I mean, some of that's still there, not the pickle barrels, but the, and the garbage blowing in the street and the just general, the smell and feel. And against that, what was, you know, the classic melting pot, you know, emerges this thing. Like the character of New York is always prone to birthing things, right?

You know, that come from a lot of different places. Think about that moment in New York within just a one-half-mile radius. You've got literally Bob Dylan at the gaslight, Von Ronk, Baez, onward. And then around the corner, you've got Coltrane and Davis. And, I mean, this is literally the same—

three blocks. Sure, and Ginsburg's around probably. Oh my God. And I mean, and Edward Hopper is painting over there and I mean, it is a hot, it is, it's just a square mile with like so much shit going down. Yeah, yeah. It's hard to believe. Yeah. And, and how much that's,

inter braided into trucking companies and bookstores and, and shipping and pickles and conditions and, and smoked fish and, and Chinese restaurants. And, you know, and those clubs weren't even clubs, but kind of retrofitted, you know, Italian restaurants, they weren't built as clubs. They were kind of things that just happened in basements or in places. And, and,

Yes, such an exciting time. There's an intimacy to it. Yes. And I thought you got the, I thought the one moment that, like there's a couple moments that stand out to me

that I thought were so exactly what you said, that it wasn't about plot, but it was about that space between people and just that moment, which must have been an interesting decision on your part, that when you had that moment where Cronkite is saying that we might be bombed and everybody's freaking out and Joan's trying to get out of the city and she walks by and Bob is just playing guitar in a basement. You know, like...

Disconnected from it all. Or is he more connected? Whatever it was. Where is he going to run? That's right. Why not die doing what you like? Right. But I thought that was great about him. It's really interesting. And this thing about plot is... I mean, we could obviously talk forever. The plot is...

I think plot has been just over-defined with, like, bad guy, good guy, and then this one makes this move. There is such a thing as an emotional plot. Yes. And I think it's more foreign to audiences at this point because they've been so stuffed to the gills with the world will end if this doesn't happen movies. Yeah. But there is...

you know, watching Joan fascinated, repulsed, and falling in love with Bob at the same time is really interesting and has many movements to it. Watching Bob

kind of in awe of Joan and kind of envying her career and her guitar playing and wanting and being so ambitious and hungry for his own shot at things. Watching Sylvie, Elle Fanning's character, kind of wrestle with being almost our emissary as a kind of regular human in this world of... Each of these characters has so many movements that both...

But they just don't involve a bank heist or needing to get X or Y. But that's where movies get exciting to me is when that kind of, you know, I mean, I think Sid Field had a gigantic effect on a whole generation of filmmaking. The screenwriting book? Yeah, with like page 10 this, page 15, turnabout, blah, blah, blah. I never was able to work from that stuff. And partly because I just felt like what I was doing was so...

architectural and unalive when I was trying to write that way. I'm not saying it couldn't work for someone else. That it was, I really felt like I learned to write

From a director, actually, Milos Forman at Columbia University. He taught you personally? Well, he taught me by example. He was teaching there. He was teaching there and it was a directing class and each student was supposed to come to the directing class with something to direct. And he came to, there were five of us and he comes to me and I'm like, I don't, I just have an idea about a fat guy who's invisible. Yeah. And he goes, okay. And, and he goes, what's it, what's it about?

And I go, and I remember saying something terribly pretentious like cinema. Yeah. And he goes, you can't make a movie about that. What's it about? Like the people. And the, and he goes, and he's just said, here's the deal. Um, here's my address, right? 40 pages a week and send them to me and I'll come in and talk to you about them. Yeah. And,

What could be more inspiring? You know? So I'm writing 40 pages a week, like feverishly, and just sending them to Milos. And what he did immediately is instead of me having to follow, oh, I need a hook or I need to, I just wrote about characters I knew. And then he would come in and he'd go, page 37, this is life.

And he goes, and it was a moment, it's actually in the movie where Debbie Harry's character is showing Liv Tyler's character how to show the cash register, use the cash register. And she's going, no, don't press this. Press reset first and then you hit this and then the drawer opens. And it was so funny. Milos circled this page. It was just people talking about how to use an old cash register. And he goes, this is life. And that was one lesson, which is life itself when recognizable is compelling. Yeah.

And so sometimes you don't have to identify this bomb under the table. If humanity itself, there's a kind of universal something where we all recognize ourselves in that moment, that in itself can hold an audience. One lesson from him. The other was there was a point when I was writing and I didn't have really a story where he goes, page 52. So your character comes home after his mother dies at the hospital, but he doesn't tell anyone.

that she's died. Yeah. And his mother runs the place he works. And I go, yes. And he goes, that's your movie. And he goes, just make it as long as possible before he tells anyone what happened. And that also was, he was helping me find my plot.

but through a kind of organic exploration of character instead of this kind of like log line kind of methodology, which never worked for me. Wow. And like with Dylan, there's this moment that I'm kind of hung up on outside of your film is that he's always, you know, despite the fact that he's a vessel, he's always hyper-present somehow. Yeah, he's hyper-intelligent. I found that with him. I mean, there was...

There was a lot of these perceptions about him just seemed so inaccurate. I mean, like I had driven a car to go see him the first time and he had walked me out to the parking lot as I was leaving. And a year later, I saw him again and, you know, I had a different car because my lease had gone up and he was like, what happened to that other car, man? And it wasn't like I was driving some kind of, you know, Mach 7 or something. Yeah, yeah.

He's an observant person. He remembers shit, you know, and he's present. And he had seen Copland and 310 Yuma. And when I referred to Ozu, he knew what I was talking about. And he had this whole way of embracing what I was doing that, A, he wanted to get it true to the feelings of the characters at the time. But he also, as a storyteller...

recognized artistically what I had to do with his life to make it a movie. Yeah. I remember this one, he said this like, I love the way you use Woody. Yeah. And he goes, you know, it begins with Woody and it ends with Woody. Yeah. It's like a sandwich, you know?

You're almost, you're home free because it doesn't matter what's in the middle because you got bread on both sides. And it was so Bob. First of all, he's saying this and it's just so Bob. And he's teaching me how to write him as he's saying this. But the other aspect is...

He's right. He's recognizing symmetry and circularity and kind of Aristotelian theory and storytelling. I mean, that's what he's recognizing in his own way and showing awareness of. And that was this incredibly freeing aspect, which is that he wasn't there just to protect his image. He was really interested in it being a good movie. Yeah, yeah. And that was...

incredible license to drive in a way that I am really grateful to. Yeah. Well, that beat that I was going to tell you about, did you, you watch that doc, the weird rolling thunder thing that, Oh yeah. It's great. But like, it's all building to him getting back on stage. And then after he gets off stage, the moment he gets off stage, I don't remember who the guy who's holding the camera goes, uh,

How do you feel? And Dylan goes, about what? Right. Right. The whole build was to this moment. And then he just sort of... But don't you know, haven't you done, I mean, I'm in the middle of it, but the most often asked question I arrive...

how does it feel to be nominated for da, da, da, da, da? Yeah. What does it feel like? Yeah. And it's like, uh, awesome. Like, like I don't want to say like the one thing I have to say, having gotten to know him a little bit is Dylan doesn't want to speak in cliche or kind of obvious. So like, like, like,

It's kind of like going, do you like the cake? Yes, I like the cake. It's like so boring. Like what you're asking me is so boring. So he'll take it out and do another zone all the time. Yes, because it's just so... It's kind of you're asking me to become a zombie by asking me a zombie question. Yeah, right. And if I... And that was... I mean, I never felt that pressure with him because I just don't think I asked...

what does it feel like? So that was such a triumph. You must have been so... Like, I never did that kind of thing. You just let him lead? Well, but also doing exactly what you're doing here, which is just talking. Did he see the movie? No. Not that I know of. He...

according to him, he hadn't seen any movie that have been made, that's been made about him, that he, he was happy to participate in the screenplay, but, and I kind of get it. Like I kind of go, would I want to watch like it's, there's a whole amount of kind of shit you'd have to go through watching a picture like this. Yeah. And I'm not sure. Um, he, he was really into going over the script, understanding me. I felt like he was really trying to, um,

You know, he told, I felt like, you know, his manager called me after the first meeting and was like, he likes you. And I was like, oh, good. And he goes. That's not Rosen. Yeah. Oh, Jeff. Yeah. And he said, you know what he said, which makes me know he likes you. And I go, no. He goes, he doesn't have an agenda.

And to me, that also taught me so much about, I mean, of course I had agendas galore, but I know what he means, which is I didn't have some kind of preordained biographical observation thesis I was out to prove on his back. I was actually trying to live in his world

assimilate all this shit and then put something on the screen that was hopefully transcendent or evocative, but that was also true, uh,

to the mixed up crazy feeling of that time without having one conclusion or another. And, but that fear of the agenda, I think the agenda to, to, to categorize that to me is a part of Dylan. I really identify with, which is that need for, we all have in order to talk about something, to box it in,

in a way that can be-- that three sentences are good enough. - Yeah. And that's the death of-- - Some shit-- it's the death of everything. - Yeah. It was so funny, 'cause I tried to get Dylan on this show. - Oh, that would be great. - I know, but it was so funny, 'cause I had met Rosen a million years ago, and I wanted to get Dylan to do our-- like, it was an anniversary episode. And I was told by the publicist, "Maybe you should write a handwritten letter," and he'll maybe respond to that. But I know I had talked to Rosen. I knew-- I had met Rosen.

So I write this handwritten letter and I send it off. And then all of a sudden I get a message like, just call Jeff.

And I'm like, okay. So I get on the phone with Jeff and I'm like, look, you know. Who's great, by the way. Super honest guy. I mean, in terms of just being really frank with you about it. Well, I say, look, you know, this is our 2000th episode or whatever it was, 1000th. I don't know. I think it'd be really great to have Bob on because we could, you know, it'd be great for the show. It'd be great for me. I think I'm good for talking to him. And I just do this big,

big pitch and I go so what are the chances of him coming on and next to nothing you know Jeff literally said zero and he goes he says and I'm like what he's like look he he's not great at the interviews and he doesn't have an axe to grind and there's just no reason that for him to do it and I said I said well what about you why don't you do it he's like no how do you think I keep this job I'm not talking to anybody

Right. And the, but the, the thing is I didn't, and the other thing I didn't ask, which was him to explain his songs or his, which I think. How is he going to do that? Well, people seem, I mean, this is a whole separate topic for another day, but like the, the whole idea that he's an enigma who has written over 600 songs and released 55 albums of original music played and sung by him.

is so unfair to me. What he really is is a really vexing and interesting artist whose music asks questions that we want answers to and he won't give us. Well, that's what art is. Right. But, like, it's maybe a kind of oversimplified thing, but, like, think of Frank Sinatra. Probably released a similar amount of records. Yeah. Never wrote a song or just a few. Yeah.

but no one calls it an enigma. Yeah. So why, why does one guy get kind of, why is, and he, he lived behind walls. He wasn't open. They didn't do interviews all the time, but it's, it, why is this mantle? And I think it's because he's such a successful and provocative artist, Dylan, that we keep wanting more when, and he, there's a finite limit to what he's going to give us. And when we reach that limit, that boundary, it's,

We get frustrated with his mystery because we are now in a world where, look at what I'm doing with you, where artists arrive and explain themselves ad nauseum and don't just let the work speak. And there is, I have no problem with it because film is incredibly complicated. But you're talking about craft. Yes. And even in Bob's book,

He spends a good 30 pages talking about a chord progression. Right, and I think he'd be happy if he had some kind of guarantee that the conversation was going to live in craft. I think he's got a lot to say. I think that the problem is this kind of

To explain himself, yeah. That everything becomes another quote down from the mountain that then gets amplified and turned on its head and analyzed. And it's a burden. Yeah, of course. Like it is the burden that we were discussing, the burden of genius. Yeah. And he's going to sap you of your energy. And why would you want to focus on that? No. He likes making art. Yeah. I tell you, there's a part in Switch Films in Fordham Ferrari. Oh, yeah.

One of the great moments in that. And it's really just, it was totally a human moment where you got Letts

As Henry Ford, what was it, second or third? Yes. And he takes that ride in that Corvette and he's crying. Yes. It's the best thing. It is. It always terrified me in the script because we had written it and it was kind of just sitting there, the balls. And it just, and even Matt Damon was teasing him on the day, you know, and, oh, today's your crying day. Yeah, yeah. Which I was shocked at, by the way. That Damon was busting Tracy's balls? Yes. I mean, like-

I mean, just, just, it shows you the kind of locker room bullshit in the makeup trailer sometimes. But the, but Tracy just, uh, he not only nailed it, but it's so primal. It's such a beautiful thing because it actually endears you. Totally. What I always thought it was going to be was just a scene about kind of the corporate chairman being kind of, um, flustered and freaked out. And what Tracy does with it makes it's

He's a guy who's lived in a velvet bubble all his life. And suddenly he's had this primal life, life endangering experience. And it's just caused this kind of horror.

pouring of a feeling. And well, Tracy is a brilliant actor and a brilliant playwright and a great guy. Yeah. Great guy. But he really, that is a moment in that scene. It's so good, right? And that is, you know, another movie about artists in a way. Sure. It's got no music singers in it, but it's just changed guitars for a wrench and it's kind of a similar story. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. And okay. So one last thing. So is this true that you're going to, you're going to do Swamp Thing?

It's true. I'm working on a story for Swamp Thing. Because, like, I'm not a big comic book guy, but I love Swamp Thing. Me too. I mean, I literally wrote to the new team at DC when they took over and just said, if this was available, I'd love to try something. What is it about Swamp Thing?

Gothic horror, kind of Frankenstein legend. The whole concept of man plant I find really like kind of... But there's something about that character that is sort of like... I love the name. I love just the title. I love... But he's an existential character. The Bernie Wrights in art to me of the original series is so incredible. Yeah. And the aspect of kind of being...

separated from your life and suddenly haunting the woods and kind of living in this abject, um, loneliness, deformation and loneliness. And, um,

That's really interesting. I honestly don't know what's coming next. I kind of went really rapid fire through a series of movies the last three. And this is kind of my kind of – and then I didn't anticipate, you know, the kind of whole fall season dance of – which is a commitment in and of itself. Well, it's very – it's exciting. I actually talked to – talking about Copland, I talked to Robert Patrick. Oh. He's –

He's something, man. He is. He is. He's a force to be reckoned with. And he was great in that movie, and he's also in Walk the Line. Yeah. I love him. Did he play the dad? Yeah. Oh, yeah. He's great. Well, great talking to you, man. I really appreciate it. Me too. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much, Mark. There you go. Complete Unknown is still playing in theaters, and that was a lovely chat. And he offered to be of service to me if I get to the...

the opportunity, if I get the opportunity to direct a film, which I'm hoping to do by the end of this year. And that's a nice guy. That's a nice guy. Hang out for a minute.

Folks, if you want more director talk, we posted a WTF collection on the full Marin featuring some great directors when they were guests in the garage. William Friedkin, Greta Gerwig, Quentin Tarantino, Guillermo del Toro and Paul Thomas Anderson. I mean, these stories are good. These kind of an end of a certain kind of innocence, you know, that always sort of makes for a good thing. And I think that's what's going on there. It's singing in the rain, basically. It's like, you know, what happens when we got to start talking, you know?

what happens when video comes in. Now, anybody can make a porno movie? Yeah. What the fuck? You know. Now, how much porn did you grow up with outside of consuming it? I mean, did you know houses in the Valley? Did you? Yeah, yeah. There was one across the street from my grandmother's house. Honest to God. And I wouldn't, I probably wouldn't have put two and two together if she hadn't been so indignant about it all, that she saw this van there all the time and the windows were blacked out. Yeah.

And, you know, if you waited long enough, you would see some pretty suspicious-looking characters coming in and out of there. Yeah, yeah. And then I remember so well looking at the frame of the front window. It was kind of a bay window in the front of the house. And any time I would watch a porno film, I'd be looking for that bay window. I'd be like, where's that bay? I wonder if that's in that house. To subscribe to The Full Marin, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+.

And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST. Here's some guitar. Tried to keep it simple and swappy. Yeah, that's what I do. ♪

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