Episode 1639 - David Harbour
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Sometimes when I travel now, I get to a place and I don't really want to do much of anything while I'm there. I want to be there, but I don't feel all the pressure to do things. You know, like I was in Chicago and I've been in Chicago a lot and, you know, I used to go to Chicago and I do go eat the meat. I go to the museum and I go all to, you know, all the interesting places. But the last time I was there, I was just sort of like, dude, you've done it. Just you like the city. Just, you know, enjoy the poetry of the place.

And look, if you go away and decide to do nothing, now you can still host your home on Airbnb while you're away and not have to worry about doing anything. That's because a co-host can do all the hosting for you. You can get a high-quality local co-host to take care of your home and your guests.

They manage all the hosting details and even send messages to your guests. Then they're available to be on hand when your guests are at your place, just to help out with anything that might come up. So do nothing while you're away and still make some cash. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck Knicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast.

Welcome to it. It's called WTF. I imagine some of you have been here before. Nice to have you back. Today, I have David Harbour back, which is always exciting. I love that guy. I love him. We talked years ago and it was like a ride. I'm like, I can get on this roller coaster today.

I grew up with a similar roller coaster in a slightly different theme park. Let's do it. Let's get in it. I was just fucking thrilled to have him back. And, you know, you know him. He's the guy, the sheriff on Stranger Things. And, you know, he did the show a while back. It was episode 921 in the archives.

He's been part of the Marvel Universe since the Black Widow movie, and now he's in the new Marvel movie Thunderbolts. I like him. Get a kick out of him. So, look, you guys, you know, we live in an age, this will be known as the when is everyone going to shut the fuck up era. Just people blathering everywhere. You know, I get overwhelmed, and I don't know if I've talked about this specifically, because look,

We do almost an analog thing here. Here at WTF Central, me and Brendan do this thing. This is what we do. We do an audio podcast, have from the beginning. We're audio guys. But in the world we live in now, it's almost like analog.

And I always felt that, as did Brendan, that this was the most intimate and most engaging format and remains so. That's why we still do it this way, because audio is kind of magic. There's an intimacy to it that, you know, you live with it in your head. And the way you engage with audio, especially talking, is very different than video, but

But it's also, we are not on the big battlefield of, you know, memes and clips and everything else. And there's a certain insulation in that, but it's sort of a freedom. It's a freedom. Yeah.

That, you know, we don't care about being clipped, you know, and having reels and bits and pieces of content, as they call it, to go up online so people can flip through it or engage with the 30 seconds, a minute or two. We're not even on that playing field at all. And it's a fucking gift.

It's a fucking gift because I believe that long form interaction, long form conversation and long form comedy, which is what I do, is still the most human sort of pastime.

It's something that the brain has to settle into. It's something that you have to take in. It's something you have to follow and engage with in a full way, you know, all the way through, you know, and there's this, this idea that I, I push back against, you know, I talked to a lot of young comics about,

who come in here and they do specials, but they're doing specials that are a half hour long, 40 minutes long, 33 minutes long, 38 minutes long. And when I got into the game, you know, you did an hour. That was your job. You know, you were a headliner. You do an hour, 50 minutes to an hour to close the show. When you do a special, it's an hour. And as time goes on, because of this idea that we don't have the attention span for

anymore to to watch long-form anything that the attention span of people a because of data accumulated through algorithms then made into a Generalization about human beings ability to pay attention to engage with something for more than a certain number of minutes is sort of like the precedent set and I think it's bullshit and

And I have a really hard time knowing that this is the adjustment artists are making comics, whoever musicians, people who talk for a living, that it's been drilled into our head that, you know, people just can't do it anymore.

They can't do it. They're distracted. Their attention span is is has been truncated, shortened. And the truth is, is that it is those delivery systems, those platforms, the way that that that business is structured, that has caused that.

And I don't think it's an ability for people to pay attention to things. It's a matter of them wanting to or being engaged with it. But because everyone's accommodating this idea that you got to keep going shorter and shorter, you know, that's become the requirement, right?

And I had this realization, I may have talked about it in conversation with somebody, but I don't think I explored it on the show. And it came up in my thinking when I was talking to an NPR host in, I don't know, Illinois or somewhere. That look, you know, when we talk about crowd work comics or when you flip through your phone and you see all these bits and pieces of comics intentionally doing crowd work for the reason to be recorded at a club so they can post their clips to show people what they do.

Which is, you know, basically be in the moment and make fun of audience members. And again, I've said this before. Look, it's a skill set that you should have if that's you.

Like if if that is what you do is like, this is my mode of expression. This is me expressing myself. So what do you guys do? How long you been together? What is that hat? You know, are you guys married? Where do you where do you come from? Like if that is and reacting to those questions to strangers.

If that's, you know, that's your that's your expressive thing, that's your talent, that's what you want to say to the world, then fine. I don't have a problem with it. I get it. It's comedy. And one of the great things about being a solo artist or an artist at all is that, you know, you create the space for yourself to to do what you do, to get what you how you express yourself out there and whatever it may be.

You know, that is part of the freedom of it. I mean, that's why I did it. Like, you know, I can, it doesn't matter what I do up there. It's my stage. And as long as I get laughs occasionally, then I'm doing the right thing. But anything outside of that, I can do whatever the fuck I want to do. You know, in terms of that stage, it's a rare stage. You can sing, you can dance, you can act out, you can do whatever you want. The only basic requirement is that you get laughs. But if that's what you choose to do to express yourself, it should be yourself that you're expressing.

And the idea that comics are, you know, I would think get into it for that, but now are beholden, like the idea that they, you know, have a freedom to express themselves, right?

But yet they have to figure out how to do it, you know, quickly and in a way that, you know, will pop on a reel in a way that honors the speed and pace and delivery system of TikTok or Instagram or any of these platforms. There's a context there that is a huge corporate endeavor.

That primarily is to keep people on that thing, on that platform. And you're just serving those masters to do that so they can do that. Yet you're bending your entire will and creative sense of self to that format, which is short and has to grab people. And the more people you grab for your short little thing or you shitting on that guy who's got a weird haircut or

is what determines whether or not, you know, you are successful or that you may possibly make a living. But there's no freedom of mind in that. There's no real expression in that other than, you know, maybe being quick-witted and having a spontaneous moment that is, who cares? But the idea that you can do whatever you want and that some of these folks of any type of art form thinks they're doing that, but yet you're bending yourself to

to this context to fit the expectations of the platform delivering it. And with the, with these, with these platforms, it's quick and it just goes by. And all you're looking for is people to go, ha ha ha, and quick and get a follower. So you are just an appendage in a way you were just, you know, part of this, uh, the advertising effort, the, the, the sort of, um,

onslaught of these bits and pieces to keep people engaged with this larger corporate interest. And so whatever you think is the freedom of being expressive and all this freedom you have to do whatever you want and put it out into the world becomes very relative to the world of those platforms. And it is innately true.

Not a long form world, not a storytelling world, not a world, you know, in terms of comedy at this point in time that really kind of shows people.

You know who you are, what your ideas are, you know where you're coming from. I mean, there's other people that do that kind of stuff, but arguably they're doing it in a very limited format, too. And everybody is now a broadcaster and everybody is sort of operating in this this zone of mania that is required to focus on broadcasting, whether it's sort of a hypothetical vulnerability or aggressive cultural criticism. There is a zone that people have to get in to be on a mic. You know, I'm in it now in my own way.

But I just think that the cultural conversation is just this kind of sort of, you know, never ending, infinite, manic babbling that comes through you in little bits and pieces in order to grab your attention for corporate interests. And I think I've kind of discussed this a bit with Chris Hayes when I talked to him about his book, is that people are perfectly capable of maintaining an attention span for as long as the individual

thing that they are interested in continues to engage me. So any generalization based on millions of people, you know, watching one thing that gives data through an algorithm about how many people tuned out or didn't watch all the way through, it's not relative to,

to what people can really pay attention to or how they can engage. But if we keep just operating at the behest of that, we will just become these kind of reactive monkeys in a cage looking for dopamine hits off of short bursts of bullshit. And I just think that it is the enemy and it is a very specific corporate enemy in the form of platforms designed to maintain your attention to personal creativity. Yeah.

Diminishes your depth, diminishes your ability to express yourself honestly or the way you want to. Anyway, I don't know. It was on my mind. So, look, it's the final leg of my tour leading up to my HBO special taping. I'm in Toronto at the Winter Garden this Saturday, May 3rd, for two shows. Burlington, Vermont. I'm at the Vermont Comedy Club for two shows on Monday, May 5th, and one show on Tuesday, May 6th.

Portsmouth, New Hampshire. I'll be at the Music Hall on Wednesday, May 7th. Then it's my HBO special taping at the Bam Harvey Theater in Brooklyn on May 10th for two shows. Two shows there. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets. Most of those shows are pretty close to sold out. I think there's still some tickets in Portsmouth. Maybe a couple tickets for the taping. But I don't know. But go check it out if you're interested in coming.

Okay, look, David Harbour and I have done this sort of deep word jam before. Deep thought jam, deep talk jam. And it was a thrill to have him back. Thunderbolts opens in theaters, including IMAX, tomorrow, May 2nd. This is me reconnecting with David Harbour. All right, so it's been a long time since our last appointment. Seven years or something, right? I know, I can't believe it.

How is your progress? I mean... Aren't you going to ask me to cough and you put the rubber glove on? No, no, no. That's a different kind of doctor. Sorry, sorry. I'm doing the... We got to make some sense of some shit, man. Oh, man. Good luck to us. Well, here's what I was going to tell you about the cat. Can we hire a professional? Oh, yeah. The professionals, do they really know?

I don't know anymore. Like, I can't. Yeah, that's a great question. How long have you been in therapy for? Well, I wasn't in therapy. You know, I've been in and out. Because as I get older, I realize, like, if I'm going to go, I've got to know exactly why I'm going. I'm not going to fuck around. Oh, that's an interesting concept. I'm the opposite. Really? Yeah. You're like, figure it out. Just keep me in the whole time. Yeah. Yeah? Yeah.

Well, I just found that after a while, if you're a smart person, you know, what are you really using them for? You know, they're just like. Well, I guess it's some kind of self-exploration, right? It's an hour of your day where you're going into these recesses of your psyche where you don't really want to go alone. But don't you do that anyways? Oh, don't want to go alone. Yeah. Yeah. And you want to have at least someone intelligent who's navigated those waters. Sure. Okay. Okay. Let's say you do that.

Right. And then, you know, you find something out. And the idea is that that's proactive. It's going to help you. How is it not just like when I make discoveries that imply something about my behavior, the next step should be like, well, I'm going to try to change that. And then it just becomes like, oh, yeah, I had that memory. That was good. Yeah.

I mean, theoretically, there are different types. There's like the CBT version, which is the cognitive behavioral thing, which is where you're actually going in to fix a problem. And then there's what I like, which is like deep Freudian psychoanalysis, where you're just...

going into weird eddies and whirlpools of the psyche. What, is there one guy left doing that in New York? Are you with the one guy? What is he, 90? Yes. And he has me lie on the couch and he's behind the whole thing, man. It's like I'm back in 1920s Vienna. It's just like, that's just nostalgic, David. Yeah.

Hard disagree. I mean, if we're going to do something which we both agree might be worthless, you might as well do it in the most worthless way possible. The classic. Yes. Like, let's go to the... Yeah.

All right. So you're doing that and you're doing like, you know, he doesn't talk much. Yes, exactly. But I mean, it's really the mystery, right? Yeah. Like that's what you're getting into is the unconscious or the subconscious, which isn't conscious. Do you feel like you get there? Do you feel like you really get there? I mean, like I know that's the idea. My life improved. Yeah.

In the eight years I've been with this new guy. Weekly? My life has improved, yes. No Zooms with the old man. When we are out of town, we do phone calls. Oh, yeah. You don't want him on the FaceTime. I've barely seen his face. Yes. You walk in the room. You lay down. I try not to look at him.

We do have a momentary interaction of, how are you doing? Good, how are you? Which is completely meaningless and insane. Yeah. Because I'm going to get into the fact that I'm not okay. Yeah. And then you lie on the couch with him behind you and you just go into it. And hopefully the idea is that you are...

or uncovering things that you don't understand in ways that you don't understand. So it's not the literal of what you're saying. It's how you're saying it or what you're focused on. Or, you know what I mean? This is the mystery. I understand. Where hopefully it becomes more impressive than just some guy on the street that you're, you know, telling your problems to and he says, go, you know, go do this. Yeah, but ultimately that's a 50-50 proposition. Okay.

I mean, it is true. And the training is archaic and it is from Vienna in the 30s. We don't exactly know what the training is. There's a lot of disagreement. But don't you already know what's wrong with you? I mean, how old are you? No, that's the sad thing. That is the sad thing. I'm turning 50. And yes, at this point I should. But I still look to someone slightly older.

To tell me what's wrong with me. Well, okay. Well, here's what I was, because I, you know, I avoided medication, you know, for years. Oh, okay. So you're. Okay, but wait, here's the story. Oh, I can't wait. Here's the story. Does it relate to the cat at all or no? Yes. Oh my God, I can't wait for this. And this was profound because like, okay, for me, I know I'm not depressive and I'm not really, I have anxiety problems that are debilitating on some level to the point of obsessiveness, right? So that's the trip. Right.

For me, and I've lived with it because I've always been like, well, you know, I mean, there's a lot of reasons to feel this way. And if no one else is, then they're the dummies. Of course, you're just alive. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just sort of like, so what if I if what the bit I'm doing about it is like, you know, I don't know what resting mind is.

Because if my brain rests even for a second, it goes like, so you want some things to worry about? I got some stuff. Let's pop open the folder. None of them could, you know, they could all happen, but they probably won't, but we could work them out, you know? So it's a catastrophic thing. Okay. Fine. Yes. But I've always been against the SSRIs only because, you know, I feel them and I feel what they do. And what I've been saying lately is that like, I'm not sure that all of my creativity might come from this. Like mining for gold in a river of panic.

Yeah. So, but here's the thing. You're aware of getting rid of your demons. You may be getting rid of the best things about you. Yeah, but the big, a bit of used to do is like, you don't get rid of them. They're just inside you. And they've been taken hostage. So, you know, people are going like, how you feeling? You're like, great. And there's some guy inside of you go, get me out of here. Anyway, so here's what happens with the cat. Okay. And this, it spoke to me. Is that...

All right. So I go away and my cat has anxiety. He freaks out apparently like he, like to the point where like it was just first it was just, you know, vomiting and now then he gets colitis and he has diarrhea all over the house when I'm gone. And now it's escalated to him beating the shit out of the other cats. Like I came home the, uh, from being away for, for like three days and all the cats were hissing at each other. This little fucker had fucked everything up. He's shitting everywhere. You know, it's a disaster. You know, there's piss everywhere and he's just fucking lost his mind.

And my vet says, well, we should put him on the Prozac because that'll help his behavior. Yes. Right? So I project all of my feelings about Prozac onto the cat. But I think the moment of profundity is that my struggle is like, okay, so this cat shits all over everything and fucks with all the other cats to the point where there's total chaos. But don't I want him to be his authentic self? No.

And how is that not relatable? I mean, because it's the same thing with me, right? It's like, you know, like, why would I want to taper or temper? Well, I mean, okay. I mean, this is where I actually do have a really interesting rabbit hole, wormhole bone to pick with you. You talk a lot about the search for the self, right? Yeah. I mean, that's so interesting to me because...

I've been on this kick too for like 50 years, right? 50. I'm sorry. I guess not when I was like two. Well, that's where it got lost. Exactly. What about the idea of no self?

I mean, how about the, have you ever traveled down that path of the Buddhist path of no Atman? Sure. Sure. I'm dealing with it right now. Just abandon it. I put my cat on Prozac and I now see that he has no self. He's lost. He's untethered.

But he's not happy? He's not blissfully sort of wandering around filled with inner being? No, no. What I'm projecting is like, who am I? Why did you do this to me? Before I had purpose, I could beat up on that guy. I could shit on your bed. Who am I without shitting on the bed and beating up on the older guy? Yeah. Okay, fine. So let's say there's no self. Okay. Fine. I'll indulge this. Yeah.

Fantastic. This ancient philosophy for like tens of thousands of years. You'll indulge. Yes. Yeah. Well, what makes them right? They're just trying to deal with problems, too. I mean, like the approach is like, well, there's no self. Well, that makes this suffering easier. Correct. And isn't that the point? Is it? I don't know. I mean. Is that what you want on your, you know, your gravestone? Like, well, you know, he didn't believe he was anybody and that helped him. Yeah.

God bless. I mean, I guess it's less. I guess it's more about the attachment to this idea of self. Okay. That starts to become punishing and neurotic and you're shitting and beating up all the other cats. Like, isn't there some way to realize that the other cats are you as well?

Yes. Okay. When I go down the rabbit hole of no self, what I usually come up with is like, I have one. He just happens to be seven. But you really want to keep him around.

You don't want him to grow up and be... Well, no, I'm protecting him and it's gone too far. Right. Okay. Then I think we're in the same boat. Yeah. So like... My therapy may work in a sense to do that as well. Yeah. No, no, I'm sure it does. But what then what it requires of you...

Like I used to, I had this line where I said, you know, the monster I created to protect the kid inside is sometimes hard to manage. Right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But so the challenge is, and I'm there too. It's just ego, right? I guess it's ego. I mean, you know, the definition kind of works. But for me, if you're aware of that, so the challenge becomes, well, how do I, you know, live in that kid, you know, long enough for him not to be afraid? Right.

You know, at this age. Yes. Right. So because I feel it, you know, I, you know, I can be vulnerable in certain situations, usually with strangers for an hour, people I respect. And then they go away. You know, I don't check in with you tomorrow. I'm not going to be like. Absolutely. I mean, I might have tried the first time. Yeah. It's like, hey, what are you doing? Like, what do you mean? What am I doing? I think there was a text or something seven years ago. Maybe. Yeah.

Hey, I'm in New York. Yeah, and that was it. What's up? Yeah, nothing. Nothing. I'm not going to get back to that. I'm not going to respond to that. My God. Terrifying. What do you mean it's terrifying? Two heterosexual older men trying to get a cup of coffee together. Oh, God. We're doing it now. This is what would happen. Yeah, but this is for the public. Oh. Privately. For posterity. Privately. I don't know. What do you want from me? What a nightmare. Jesus. What are we going to talk about?

I'm glad we nipped that friendship in the bud. Thank God. I was carrying that for fucking seven years. That fucker doesn't like me, can you? Now you know. Yeah, finally.

So the challenge is, like, how do you live in that vulnerability? And I think that, you know, when you're an actor, you know, you at least are afforded the exploration of, you know, utilizing it or sort of doing creative ways to sort of stay away from it. But you can, when you're in a situation where the risk is only, you know, failure in front of people, right?

right? That you can, you can risk that vulnerability.

In a way. What do you mean? Well, I mean, like, if you're in an intimate relationship. Yes. And you get to that place where you're like, I'm finally comfortable and I'm vulnerable. Right. How are you going to trust that person anymore? Sure. Okay. I mean, I'll have to go over that next Thursday with. With your therapist? Exactly. That's all I'm here to do. The old Freudian. Give you a little. That's perfect. I'm going to start with that one. How are you, David? I'm okay. How are you? Okay. Sit on the couch. I got one from Mary.

If you finally get vulnerable to somebody, how can you trust them? How can you possibly trust them? I mean, it's an interesting conundrum for sure. Yeah, but the self thing, like if we even just take it to like seven years old, it's like that is the real situation is whatever reason you stopped letting that thing develop is because you were afraid of being hurt, right? Or you didn't want to get hurt, right? Yeah.

We're too sensitive. We're too sensitive. No? I guess so. Wait, what do you mean? You're saying that you stopped developing the self because of that? Well, I'm saying that the emotional vulnerability or whatever, it's my belief that at some point...

Your sensitivity or your lack of proper parenting left you too terrified to sort of like exist in the world. So you build this other thing that gets you through other periods of your life or whatever the fuck it is. Yes, for sure. Yeah. So what I'm saying is that like, you know, how do you make that kid not afraid? And the only way is to sort of like, well, come on out.

You know, let's just hang out for a little while. And then one thing happens. Like if my cat looks at me wrong, I'm like, well, that fucking thing doesn't like me. You know, like there's a sensitivity to it. So I don't know about the whole no self thing because I'm still stuck in this zone of like a very immature self to go back to no self and

Jesus Christ. I mean, that's like. I mean, you say it's going back. It should be going forward, right? Like you're letting go. You're letting go of this idea that you have to protect this kid or that this kid is anything at all. Well, it's just an idea. But like when I feel the struggles that I have as an adult, you have to define them somewhere. Right. I have to like, well, this is because of this. I have to do that before I go like, well, all of this is bullshit.

Okay. Yes. I understand what you're saying. Yeah. I understand what you're saying. I mean... What happened? You started the rabbit hole. I know. Now I'm like so swimming in it. I mean, it's such a wormhole of now we get into like consciousness itself, right? Right. And like sort of meaning and what we're doing in time. Yeah. Like what we're doing with our time. Yeah. And that's really the only thing. So I guess the idea of no self allows you, theoretically, this is what I've...

occasionally had glimpses of to be alive in the present moment without, and to exist in a full way without the definition of these things where, oh, I have to be a certain thing. I can just be truly an authentic non-self in the present moment. And so if somebody sees you on the street and goes, hey, David Harbour, you're like, but not today. Yeah, exactly.

I'm shitting on the other cats, if you'll excuse me. Oh, man. Not today. Not today. Well, I mean, but that is like why it's perfect to act because then, you know, you can just do that. You can like, you know, but there's... Well, it is what I love, yeah. But because it's present. Yes. And it allows you the mask of...

You know, you can be your authentic vulnerability. That's right. Without having to own. This is me. Right. Or to to either be judged or think you're being judged. Correct.

You can be as embarrassing as you want to be. Sure. And people are like, that was cringy. I know that guy that I'm playing. Exactly. Exactly. Not a comfortable fella, that guy. I mean, I think that's the thing about personality, though, where I see that people feel pretty rigid in terms of defining personality, personality of others. And I feel like we have all kinds of creatures within us. Absolutely. And all kinds of selves or all kinds of –

You know, we're... Look, when you're needy, you'll do anything to accommodate just about anybody. Amen.

Amen. So all of a sudden you're in something and you're like, who is this guy? Yeah, exactly. Well, it's working for them. Exactly. Yeah. Or any sort of, you know, oh, I never thought I would do that or I never thought I would be that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just put yourself in the right situation and of course you can. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can do anything. It's like Sidney Pollack and Michael Clayton. People were fucking incomprehensible. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And it's totally true.

Yeah. And it's why they can't treat anything effectively or anything because no one knows. Yeah. I think it's also an effective way that we distance ourselves from each other. Yeah. It feels very like, you know, we call each other monsters or you're this or you're that. Yeah. It's just because of the fears of our own potentialities. Well, I think. Right. And then I think there's a thing with me because I do like, you know, my main performance is being me.

Correct. That must be extremely difficult. Well, it's pretty broad, you know, because like I'm doing stand-up, right? So, you know, that's a context. Right.

Right. And the only requirement is theoretically to do the job, you should get laughs here and there. Right. Right. But like I got, you know, my thinking and feelings go much beyond it. Right. So for me to kind of wrestle it into that and then kind of put it into that mode, it's pretty specific because I'm broad. You know, most guys, you're like, that guy does the thing with the thing. Right. I don't do the thing with the thing. Yeah. Maybe in a,

You have the like neurotic. Kind of, but I'm more cranky. I think like I have a problem with the word neurotic because, you know, I overthink, but like, you know, I'm not, I'm not,

I am self-aware. So what I'm exploring. And you say neurosis doesn't have self-awareness? Well, I'm saying that as a character, neurosis is a guy that's sort of like, I'm going to do this and I'm not that guy. You know, I'm like, you know, all right, so this is what's happening. And I think it's this. Right. Okay. So I'm going to go all the way through. I think people would rather just have the neurotic thing because then they could put me in a box. Right. Okay. I think as I get older, I'm just in the cranky box.

Yeah, it's true. It's true. I put you in that box. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not, it's not neurotic. I, I, I think about things, but you know, I'm, I'm, I'm angry. I think, I feel like neurotic is, is a sort of like a illuminated, annoying vulnerability. Illuminated, annoying vulnerability is neurotic. Uh, yeah. Okay. I get you. You prefer crank. Yeah. A little bit. It will more, it's easier for people to, it's more palatable.

Yes. Cranky just comes off as like, wow, this guy does have problems. Right. It's less pretentious. It's more grounded. Yeah. It's more real. Yeah. I got you. I got you. Yeah. I like cranky. Yeah. But so the success of – well, this is a Buddhist problem, right? Is that what we're talking about? I guess so. Yeah. I mean, this is my – this is where it's taken me. Really? Kind of. Yeah. I mean –

Like, what are you going to things? I mean, a little bit. Yeah. Which one of the things I got it? I got guys, you know, there's like various monasteries. Oh, yeah. People. Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. Oh, so you're doing that. You know, college who became a monk with Thich Nhat Hanh down in Escondido. Oh, go down there and hang out with the monks. And Escondido. Escondido. That's really I don't know if that's a globally acknowledged thing.

place of spiritual retreat, Escondido. Where is that? Just above. Is it north? Yeah, south of here. So it's like... Oh, south of here. You know, just above San Diego. Sure, very popular with spiritualists. Mecca. Do they all wear sandals and Hawaiian shirts? They walk up the mountain barefoot. No, it's crazy though. I mean, they do have a... What's the discipline? It's Zen. Uh-huh. You know, they got rattlesnakes and black widow spiders. On purpose? Yeah.

Yeah. They ship them in from South Texas. It's part of the process. Just to murder people. These are the obstacles you have to overcome. Here's your no self. Yeah, here you go. But like when you get there, all the monks must be like, oh, this is going to be a lot. Ah!

Just roll their eyes. What do we do? It's a part of the compassion response. It's just like, oh, I didn't have time for this. I do tend to show up on, it's funny, like, because I have an in with the monks, you know, they have the days where everyone can come for the mindfully. I know. Name drop all day. And I'll show up on something called lazy days, which the monks have like lazy days where they sit around and they just like. Jerk off and eat? What?

Drink? I guess. I didn't see much of it. I saw the eating portion. But it is... You know, I do show up and I'm like, you guys don't have to do the spiel for me. It's all right. I've read the books. I'm good. We can just like hang out and look at the Black Widows. Yeah, and the sky. But yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, it is sort of a journey because I've been on... I mean...

I've been on the ancient Indian sort of philosophical tip. I started with the whole Vedanta, which is all about realization of self. Oh, yeah. And then, you know...

meditation on the Upanishads and the ancient Vedas and these things about Brahman and about the fundamental reality. And it's almost like, I imagine like the Lynch transcendental meditation. You're tapping into this field in this world that is self, that they define as self. Well, yeah. I mean, some people like Lynn, my late girlfriend, she did it twice a day. No matter what. Yeah. No matter what. No matter what.

Yeah. Like if she's on set, I got to go 20 minutes. No way. Yep. Amazing. And did it, and it was just a practice that she loved. That's it. And, but I think she, you think it helped her more than the therapy? Oh, totally. I think it was because she wasn't really that kind of person, but these people who really do that thing, I think it is, it is foundational and, and, and, and enabled, you know, it enabled, well, I mean, she was very charismatic and open and,

and caring, but she had a thing. I think it grounds you in something that is, it's hard to even define, but if it works, you're grounded, dude. Yes. Was hers visualization? I don't know exactly what her process was, but she could go right in. I'd wake up and she'd already be in it, and part of me is sort of like, but we just slept. I mean, what do you need to wake up and do this for? Right.

Different kind of concentration. That's right. But she was so good at it. It was like she was really in. Like I'd look at her and be like, that's a little creepy. You know, because, you know, she'd lock right in. I mean, yeah. Well, I mean, I started doing some of that stuff. And then, you know what I got into is you ever go back and listen to Ram Dass?

I haven't really. Oh, man. I don't know if I'm a searcher enough. Really? Really? Yeah. See, I thought that I think you are. I mean, that would be... Yeah, but I'm more of like, you know, there's part of me that is, but there's part of me that wants to work it out in my own way. I see. Not listen to gurus or... Yeah, right. I see, I see. And sometimes I get there and it's surprising, you know, for me.

You know, and then somebody like you would go like, yeah, but they've been talking about that for 10,000 years. I'm like, yeah, but I just discovered it on my own without medicine. Part of the fun. Yeah. But so I'm more in terms of spiritual searching. I'm dismissive of process.

Dismissive of process. Yes. Like, if you're going to give me a dogma of any kind. Oh, I see. You know, even if it's just sitting for 15 minutes. I see. You know, I'm going to be like, there's got to be another way. But I don't know that there is. Well, I mean, the interesting concept of, like, what you get to, I think. And again, this is all my, you know, armchair knowledge.

book reading interpretation. Yeah, just in case you're taking David Harbour as a guru or a meditational master. Please do not. I have no idea what I'm talking about. But theoretically, I mean, the idea of Zen at its nth form is that it's all individual, right? Is that it's all just sort of like your own meditative path through this world. It doesn't have form. Right. Right.

Right. Well, like I like my biggest, my newest revelation was like, you know, I'm a well, you know, I'm a recovering addict. Yeah. And I have that thing on all levels. And, you know, right now I'm like, you know, I'm doing these these nicotine pouches. Is this a sponsor? No, no. OK. No. But like they're so good.

Well, you look like you're just chewing that. No, I just put them in the thing and you get a little nicotine. So, but, but this is a manageable. You park it, right? Yeah. Addiction. Boy, you kind of want one. I mean, I do. I can't believe I've come to my dealer in a garage out here. Once I heard you go like, is this bad? You park it, right? I'm like, you've investigated this. Yeah, that's right. You park it.

I know all about this. I did the Nicorette for like two weeks. I did that for years. But what I said on stage was one night, it's like, you know, it's like this is manageable. I'm a fucking addict. And if this is what it's going to take, if this is all it takes for me on a daily basis to hold back the big empty, I'll do it. Yes. But if I was spiritual, I'd embrace the big empty. There you go.

And see, that's the thing is like we're all running away from our suffering in all these various ways and we just need to sit. Or maybe not just suffering, but existential terror. Yes. So I guess that's suffering. I mean, you sound like you're suffering even when you say it. The awareness of mortality and then the mundane issues of shame.

I mean, of course. I mean, but you know, the interesting thing about the Zen stuff is that's like basic level entry level. Like you talk about figuring it out. That's entry level stuff. They sit around and meditate on their bodies dying. Like they sit around and meditate on the rotting of their bodies. Yeah. And how this body will die for decades.

You know, it's like the first meditation that you do. And do they do that until they die? No, you sort of figure it out, I guess. And at a certain point, you're like, yeah, that's cool. Oh, how you can let it go. You let go of that. Yeah. I mean, there's a... How are you doing with that one? I mean, terrible. Absolutely awful. It's... I don't know. I mean, it's the only really thing to talk about is death, right? There is a...

There's an incredible, you know, I do love the Vietnamese Buddhist sort of thing. It's a little different than the Tibetan thing. There's a video of Thich Nhat Hanh with a child, and the child is like, is asking about death. He's like, does death really exist? And this, you know, the old monk is just like, absolutely. Like, there is no life without death. Right. And the kid is just looking for the reincarnation answer or whatever. Yeah.

But it's, I mean, I guess it's a little more complex. Where's that kid now? He's got those backs, those nicotine backs, just covered. He's soaking in a tub of them, trying to push away the suffering of that moment. I guess the, you know. Well, that's interesting. So that is, the existential terror is the suffering of every moment. So unless you really deal with that at the beginning or at a core level, you're kind of locked in.

You have to transcend that fear. Well, you have to understand that the body dies and something called impermanence and emptiness. So the fact of the matter is like,

Nothing's permanent. I've been fucking with that. And I think the grasping of the permanence. And then even the idea of emptiness. There is no real... There's no real Mark Maron. There's no real David Harbour. It's like there's a voice box. There's a this. There's a that. There's a body that's going to die. It's all going to... So... But it's making its mark. Especially when it's shitting on all the other cats. Exactly. Sorry, it wasn't. It was beating up the other cats and shitting on the floor. But yeah, so that's like, you know...

where you begin with this stuff is that, you know, it's funny. There is a paradox. There's a paradox too, though, in this where they believe that the body dies for sure, but they say that there's no birth and no death. Okay. And so there's just something called, like even when it's your birthday in Buddhism, it's just your continuance day. Yeah. Because something continues. Yeah, it's just a live day. Now, I, in my egotistical state,

you know, nature, my desire for self transcendence or whatever, like you go into reincarnation. I went into a big kick a couple months ago with a, with a past lives, uh,

See, that's why it can't be as fair. No, but it's not real. I mean, it's my bullshit. It's, you know. Right. Oh, well, that's good. The real people will laugh at you for this. Yeah. But no, but I went down the road to make sure that my, quote unquote, soul was preserved. And I met the little kid from Egypt that I was and the spider. Yeah, a spider. Yeah.

And how'd that work for you? It was a hypnotist, hypnotherapist. Oh. And you go under. Another clinician. PhD. Yeah. MD. DDS. Yeah.

nurse practitioner certified central worker on the board with the gold label and uh yeah what would that do for you down from you know you're walking down a staircase oh 20 and now you're in a corridor what's the door is in front of you what color is it yeah red yeah okay there's a door to your right what color is that it's green okay we're gonna open that door if

Do you have a choice of doors? Like, let's make a deal? I don't know. I mean, I guess she determined the door. Oh, interesting. She hypnotized. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it was based on my color or not. Because, you know, I thought it was at first. I was like, oh, yeah, you don't want to go in the red door. Sure. You want to go in the green door. Red's bad. Yeah, sure. Clearly traffic lights. Yeah, yeah. Your psyche works in traffic light terminology. But, yeah, but, you know, go in this door. And then...

And then every time I did it with her, I did it several times. And every time I did it with her, she'd always make me turn to the right and go in that door, no matter what color the door was. So I think it was sort of a shtick.

Really? But yeah, you go into the room. It's a room of your subconscious room, of your understanding and you, and you know, what's in the, what's the room? It's like, oh, it's a, you know, cathedral, there's windows, it's Ivy on the wall. Oh, okay. Let's go check out the Ivy. Yeah. Oh yeah. It doesn't look so good. It's a little like murky blue. Let's, let's get a garbage can. Let's fucking, let's take all the Ivy. Let's put it. Let's ask the Ivy who it is. Yeah.

And, you know, then the spider walks in the room. And you're like, that's me. Yeah. We go back to the spider's life. We go back through the spider's life. Okay. And he bit somebody. Oh, that fucker. You can't get through life. He felt terrible about it. Oh, he did. The spider felt bad about it. I mean...

This is again where it sort of breaks down because it becomes like... Yeah. But then he was forced out of the forest. The spider was. Died in some desert. I think you're right at the precipice of writing a children's book.

I think you just pitched me a chicken. I've really achieved. I've really got somewhere with all this therapy and all this searching. Amazing. It's like, well, that's why, you know, who was it? Bruno Bettelheim, you know, wrote an entire book of psychoanalysis of fairy tales. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's sort of like I think these kind of archetypes or whatever they are, they are historical and mythological. And I will say like therapeutically, there's no – it doesn't matter if the past lives thing is real or not. It's happening imaginatively in your psyche for some reason, for some narrative. Yeah.

Yeah, I guess I don't know if I'd go there. If you learn something from that narrative, who cares? And I think that's how you're approaching the Freudian therapy, too. That's exactly right. Right. You're filling yourself up with possibilities and different ways to interpret things, right? Yeah. And sort of carving out your own narrative reality. And I did find that, like, for me personally, because we talked on the previous podcast about...

You know, the problem with, I've been through like medications and I've been through the rigmarole and that side of the equation. No more? No, I still am. I still do go through it, but I go through it a lot less. You know, partially it's age, but partially it's because you can carve out and craft things.

A narrative. Right, right, that works. A reality that works for you. Yeah, yeah. And where you have some self-understanding and some compassion. So I think the better word then is for all the exercises of exploration is it's informing your narrative. Yes, that's correct. Yes. Right. I get that. And I mean, the interest in acting comes from a...

An interest in the same thing of carving narratives, but it's a little more chaotic because you're doing it for in service of something else that you may not have chosen. Yeah, but the more you the more you inform your own narrative, the more possibilities you have in creating narratives, I would think. Why not? Yes. Right. I mean, but you don't fuck with Jung.

Sure, I fuck with Jung. I fucking, you know what I, I'll tell you how much I fucked with Jung. I ordered on Amazon not like four months ago the Red Book. Have you ever seen this book of Jung? I don't know. Okay, it's about like this big. It's the size of a Bible. It's like 300 bucks or something. And you put it on the table. It's the illuminated Red Book manuscripts. It's basically just a rant. Like it's just him on a rant. I started reading it.

And it's insane. And I was bored to tears. I put it down. But I do like some of his stuff. It's good that you can acknowledge boredom. And you don't force yourself to like, I got to get this. I couldn't do it. I can't do it anymore. I could when I was younger. I mean, with Thomas Pynchon and all that. Sure. But I think with Jung, it's like if you're going to look at the cockfight, I think, between Jung and Freud. Yes. You know, as Freud was...

you know, attaching everything to either, you know, mythology or, or, uh, transference and mother issues. Yeah. And young was like, I'm going to take it all on in a vague way. Yeah. You pussy.

We're talking mandalas, baby. I like them as gunfighters. That'd be a good movie. Alchemy. Yeah, yeah. Fuck with that. Do a little more blows, Siggy. That'll help you out. Yeah, I mean, I suppose you take it on in a more imaginative way and you sort of open it up. Yeah.

I wish I was more – like, I think my struggle for the self that lives in the world has been so hard that that's been my primary focus is how do I accept me as opposed to, like, you know, why not get rid of it all? You know, like, it's been such –

It's like I'm 61 and I'm finally comfortable in my skin most of the time. Oh, okay. Yeah. Congrats. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, but if I gain five pounds, it's over. I'm glad it's still that tenuous. Oh, of course. It's like every day is fucking tenuous. It's like, yeah. You know, like, yeah. Oh, man. I don't like to hear you say that. It's from 61. Yeah, but is this the thing?

Yes, I guess it is. And I guess, well, I guess that's the search is to get real comfortable living in that present moment. Yeah, well, I mean... And to be like, this is what we have. Well, that's the interesting thing about the type of stage work I do because I can make it present. Like, you know, crowd work is...

a big thing now. And that's not really, you know, that, that requires immediacy, but when you're on stage and I'm sure you've had the experience too, even in a character where you're sort of like, Oh, what's that thing on the floor? Oh, for sure. So, and that is, those are the best moments. Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure. I think I told you, I tell you about that time. I saw buried child. I feel like I told you, it's like, it was one of the greatest pieces of theater ever saw because it's,

It was Terry Kenny. Oh, yeah. Played the brother. Okay. Right. Was he the vet? I think so. The guy that comes in at the end with all the corn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, it's Gary Sinise's production. And, you know, and there's that scene. It's towards the end. I think it might be the last bit where he walks in with all the shit fucked up corn. Yeah. And one of the corn cobs falls in that moment. And it just starts rolling down the stairs. No, no. And I'm like, this is the best thing that ever happened in theater. Yeah.

because the corn rolling upstaged the entire moment and they all had to sit in it. Yeah, it's fantastic. It's the best. I love that stuff too. I love that stuff. But yeah, the present, you know, I... Oh, fuck, man. I had that with Chris Walken and I saw...

I saw Othello in the park when I was like 14 years old. Yeah. Chris walking as Iago and like he's on stage in Central Park doing this monologue about Iago and hating the moor and a little squirrel like just came on stage at him and he just stopped and looked at him and went, bah! It was the greatest moment I've had in my life.

Really? Yeah. That's the best moment. It was incredible. That's the best moment in the history of Shakespeare. Yeah. Probably. It was incredible. Yeah. But those are those moments that, like, and I just was watching a documentary on Andy Kaufman. Who? Kaufman. Andy Kaufman. It's a new documentary. Okay. It's called Thank You Very Much.

Now, like, you know, I appreciate him and I have him in the proper amount of respect and awe. But I can't say as myself that I necessarily got laughs or enjoyed it that much. It was more of a sort of like, I get it. An intellectual thing. Yeah. But after watching this documentary, I'm like, oh, right. Well, this is deeper than I anticipated because, you know, the director really went after his, you know, youth. Like, what made this guy? And he was a big TM guy.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And, you know, and there's a piece of film on there. I got to watch it again because I want to write it down where he asks the Maharishi a question at one of those big conferences where he says, well, what's the point of entertainment? Wow.

That that that's what it's all about. So. So he just extended that space. That's right. Yeah. And the space that he would create through discomfort or challenge or things that that had no definition that he could create a space where an audience would be like, what is happening?

You know, and is this what are we how are we supposed to read? And that is bringing somebody into a present because you transcend all their expectations and you subvert them, whether it's intentional or not. So they don't like the present is like this is completely out of the context of anything we expected. And I don't know what to do with this. Yes. And that that that is the present. Yes. Yes.

So. Yes. That's kind of brilliant. I like that. I like that. You know what story of yours I quote all the fucking time. Jesus. Here we go. All the time. It's like one of the best stories about acting I ever heard.

And I told the story a million times. It's just about, it was you talking about how you're in a play. Like it's on Broadway and you're about to go on. That moment where you're like, you're hearing the guy saying the line that's going to get you on stage and you go, somebody give me a script. Yeah.

That is the best thing ever. It was like six months into the run, too. It's the best fucking thing ever. Yeah. How much more present do you need to be? And then you just go on and your body just remembers it. Oh, my God. But that moment. Absolutely terrifying. But the fact that nothing's going to help you. I'm just completely. You're going to start rifling. Trying to land the plane. There's nothing. Yeah.

So now at this point, do you have a daily practice then? Of the meditation and stuff? I mean, I'm kind of going through trying to find something, to be honest. And I guess when I'm in it, I do feel, when I'm able to do it, I do feel better. I did it a bit during COVID with the Headspace app. Oh, did you?

Oh, okay. You know, like just 15 minutes sitting and breathing. Yeah. I just do this thing. I mean, you know, some of the most effective ones from this Thich Nhat Hanh guy are like breathe in present moment, breathe out wonderful moment.

And it's just like, or breathe in, I am home, or I have arrived. It's that simple. Breathe in, I am home. And you just got to surrender to it. It's that simple. I think it's deceptively, yeah, unintellectual. I mean, it's deceptively simple. Because I can see the thoughts coming and going. I can do that part. But that's what you're not supposed, like the whole idea is training. Just let it go by. Yes. Yeah, I can do that part. It's training to be alive in the present moment. Yeah, I can do that.

Oh, shit. Well, then... Yeah, but I want to get to the big payoff. Get you to Escondido. But where's the big sort of like... Well, that's a great question. The bliss of everything. I want the everything bliss. I don't know that that's where it goes. I think... I don't know that it's a drug. Oh, that's disappointing. Exactly. It's a problem. I have the same problem with it. Like...

How was the day you realized that? I mean, I guess what it does is it does allow you non-suffering. It's theoretically, you explore the origin of suffering and then you have non-suffering. Well, all the sort of like ego-driven compulsive attempts to alleviate suffering, they just wear out. They just wear out. And it's disappointing. You know, like, you know, one day you're just sort of like, I don't even want to jerk off. Yeah.

It's like, it's kind of a terrible moment. I know.

And food stops working. You're just sitting there like, well, so that's the question. Like, where do you go from there? That's right. That's where I am. Because, well, okay. I'm kind of with you. Yeah. Because like the pleasure driven life or like the escape from suffering just into pleasurable experiences doesn't really at a certain point. It's like how much you only eat lunch once a day. It's like, who cares? Yeah. Yeah. And you're just kind of trying to get just existential relief out of a pint of ice cream.

So where do you go? What have you, what's your practice been? Well, the idea that a lot of lip service to the idea of vulnerability, right? Okay. So if what you're trying to escape is rooted in discomfort or the fear of exposure or vulnerability or whatnot, and then, you know, from there you go like, well, am I capable of intimacy? And then from there I go, it's like, why is that even important?

What's the answer? Cause I, yeah. Yeah. Well, well, the, the, the next thing is like, I'm all right by myself. You know, I can, you know, I got records and, you know, I'm going to talk to the cats, you know, but, but there is supposedly this, this, uh, this, uh, way of attaining some sense of humanity and, and, um,

wholeness maybe through intimacy, intimate relationships. Yeah. And I don't, I just don't know how it's satisfying. And I don't know how it's not just sort of like, you know, redundant. You know, like, great, we're both sitting here, you know, you're knitting a thing and I'm over here with the book. What?

Well, I don't know that it necessarily just has to relate to that one intimate relationship, right? No, yeah. I'm capable of it. It's like everybody from the barista at the thing to the whatever. It's just a constant sense of vulnerability. And as they talk about in this stuff, like interbeing, right? Yeah. Interbeing. The fact that I make you as much a piece of me as I am to myself. And I think that...

Do you say that to the barista? It's the opener. And then it's like, I would like a latte.

Or it's you would like a lot. And then eventually, you know, the word is spread throughout the coffee shop. It's like, here he comes again. And eventually, you freak out here. They start locking the doors. You eventually wake up to what you've been doing and you're like, I can't go to that coffee shop. I love that the goal is intimacy and all you do is push people away with your oversharing hippie bullshit. Yeah, my brothers like that.

So I get it. I get it. I get it. What's going on with the pickleball? That's so true. Oh, God. But how's work? I mean, great. What? Yeah? Great. I mean, and that really is the... That's the only thing that I really do understand, right? Yeah. Like you do something...

I just intrinsically have loved doing it since I was five years old. I've never stopped loving doing it. Yeah. And you know that it brings joy to other people. Yeah. Like, there's nothing... It's purely, like, if I could do it just 24-7, I think that'd be great. I'm not sure that my work always brings joy. Oh, come on. There's a few people out there. I mean, what is... I think they feel seen and relieved. Yeah.

Yeah, that's joy. Yeah, yeah. That's a feeling of... How about this? It's useful. Your work is useful? No, that's right. It brings community. There's a point of view I share that is not the standard one, but it's not aliens.

And to the people that feel the way I feel, and there are a lot of them, they feel seen. And in this political climate, you know, my shows have become like, you know, support spaces, like safe spaces where, you know, they know how I think. So and these are people that are terrified and nervous and, you know, rightfully so. But they know I'll speak to it and speak to, you know, the sources of my own thoughts.

kind of struggle. And it really does have this feeling of community service.

In the sense that, like, everyone's pretty isolated. Everyone's locked into their phones. They're breaking. They're just destroying their brains every day with this kind of like, you know, hopeless nonsense. And, you know, just to get them in a room with other people. And I think that's the power of theater and film. If people go to the movie theater. I agree. You know, so but like I'm on stage last night in a comedy set and I had this idea yesterday.

about, you know, the nature of, well, the thing I was meditating on, you know, I don't know if you kind of get little phrases or mantras or whatever, but the last two days it's been a quote from Hannah Arendt. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that says, the death of human empathy is one of the earliest and most telling signs of a culture about to fall into barbarism. Wow. Yeah, so that's what, you know, and then I breathe. That's incredible, Jesus. Yeah.

And so like, so like last night I'm doing a comedy set. Present moment, wonderful moment. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So I'm doing a comedy set and I said, you know, I was just kind of playing with this idea, you know, with, with a, informed a bit by later Carlin, um,

Where I'm like, you know, where the idea was like, hey, the leap from fuck them to kill them is a pretty short leap. Yeah. All it requires is permission. Yes. And incentive. And a presidential pardon, it's a pretty big incentive. Right. So I wanted that laugh. But what I got was, what I got was, what's happening? Ah!

People were not wanting to go down that road? Well, I don't think people think like that. Oh, really? Not most people. Most people are just sort of like, what? What? What?

I guess. That seems really clear to me. I know. But I don't think just on their side. I think on our side. I mean, I don't think there are sides anymore. No, no, no, no. I just think we're, all of us with this device and with the, are just continually beating at this thing of like, we're, and this is what I say about interbeing. We're different. Yeah.

This person is different. This person is separate. This person is other. Sure. And I'm going to either dominate this person or feel worse about myself in relation to this person or whatever. And as you say, like building community, building empathy is the antithesis of what that phone is meant to do. Yeah, it's an empathy killer. And it happens. And in that way, a civilization killer. Exactly.

Exactly. And it happened so subtly because we adapted so immediately to it. Like I'm doing a bit now about how I think my phone is my primary emotional partner. And it is. Of course, you get everything you need. You learn things. You get joy. And look at the way people hold it and the way they look at it and the way they cradle it and the way they put cases on it. I mean, myself included. It's just there is a fetish to it as like, you know, not even a dog or a cat, like as a primary partner.

Yeah, it's a panic when you lose it. Yeah, you're always holding on to it, making sure you have it. I do this thing where I'm like, you're on it, you know, and you're getting everything you need emotionally. And then you're sitting across from your human partner who's on her phone. Yeah. And occasionally she'll laugh and you'll go, well, what is it? And she'll go, I'll text it to you. And that's the nature.

Right? But there's also no way a human – I mean, this is maybe an AI discussion too, but there's no way a human can compete with the attention –

smorgasbord than that phone. So the idea of like human relationships, I'm just going to fundamentally be more boring than that phone. Yeah. So you're going to have to accept that and want that to a certain degree. We have to get back to that. Well, we got to figure out, I guess we got to figure out why we need to get back to that on some kind of visceral level. I feel like I do know, but I feel like it goes into this very meditative, simplistic thing.

that I'm talking about with the no self thing, as opposed to, because if we just want stimulation, titillation, entertainment, the AI and the phone, that's the way to go. Because there's no way a human being is going to be able to compete with that. I even think about it in terms of the movie business. Like, we're training audiences to like movies

from when they're young to like really quick snippet things and even to like things that are somewhat false. Yeah. Like, I don't know if we're training audiences to like the ickiness of being a human. Yeah. And so what place does film have anymore? What place does television have anymore? What place does theater have anymore? Especially if they're just accommodating a content marketplace that is attention driven. Like this idea that like, you know, you can't do anything longer than a half hour because people just can't pay attention. I'm like, yes, they can. Right. Yeah.

They can. I mean, you're just supporting that equation because of a content-driven marketplace. But people are perfectly capable. I mean, you know, I sat through the Brutalist, you know, and like it was great. Right. So like that's a false premise. Well, I think it – you know what's funny to me? What I'm noticing, and again, this is like I think –

What I like about films, because I really, I sit down every time I watch a movie now. Yeah. I think, why do we need this? Yeah. As opposed to, give me an AI, give me a, no, like, give me something that's colorful, that's going to have, like, some jokes that the computer can come up with. Why do I need something that's going to be rich and weird like this? And I think it has something to do with

the slower dreamlike quality of being a human that consciousness provides. That there is something that isn't quite real, and there's something very technically specific about the silicon-based life form that really wants data, information, quantifiable specificity that I think is...

as human beings, we don't want so much of it. And I think that's going to be the divide. We're going to like blurriness. Well, there's also just the basic drug...

model, whereas like, you know, these quick beats are endorphin jackers. I mean, when you scroll, you're getting a hit one way or the other, whether it's down or up and it's quick, you know, like years ago, the one of the only things Dennis Miller ever said that, and I don't know who wrote the joke, but it never left me. It was like in the early days of the internet, Dennis Miller said, the internet is going to make crack look like Sanka. Yeah.

It's true. But I think for me, because I find a tremendous amount of solace at this particular point in history from watching good films. And it's not it's only because, you know, it's there's a humanity to it. And if the story is told well and authentically, there is something nourishing about it. Do you think that a 20 year old audience member understands that?

But is it my job to make them understand? I mean, I don't know if it's your job, but it's somebody's job. Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, where are we going? Well, yeah. Well, I mean, I'm almost done. Okay. Yeah.

So how is that my problem? You really are no self. I know. Okay. We figured out that. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I think it's kind of our, I think it's kind of humanity's problem though. Maybe not. But I've, you know, why are we, I think certainly it's an industry problem for, for Hollywood movies. Well, but, but if you, if you create a generation of,

That is really, you know, for most practical purposes, just an extension of the technology. Right. Because they've surrendered to it or have been given the opportunity to engage with it at such a young age. You know, where does an elder even begin to talk? Well, where's the fight? Like, how do you? I don't know that they see it as something to fight. It just is. You know, you're saying the fight is. So you think 50 years from now, films won't be made?

Well, I don't know. I imagine that you could probably go to bed at night and tell your phone to make a movie for you the next day and tell it what length you want it and what you want it to be about, and it'll come up with something. I know. I know. But I think even when you talk about Shakespeare, which is not my bag, I mean, the reason why it –

remains and persists and is engaged with is somehow or another that fucking genius was able to encompass, you know, all the sort of foibles and manifestations of the human spirit, you know, in these dramas and comedies. That there was something about... And you think the more we get invested in the technology and the phone and the more we get attached to it...

We still remain with those human foibles and qualities? I don't know. Right. See, the thing is, like, I really, it turns out that the brain is much softer and easy to manipulate than we ever assumed. Yeah. I mean, the way that people adapt, even to tragedies, is baffling to me. That, you know, you kind of move past it very quickly and you adapt.

So the thing was is that, you know, this was some great convenience and it made our life easier. But the adaptation to it was so quick and the relationship with it is so immediately deep that I think it rewires all of it. I don't know what humanity looks like. I mean, I had an interesting experience where I...

was very curious about this perspective on what it is to be human where I did a Twitch stream with some streamers and we were, you know, and they asked me a question about roles I choose, like whether or not I wanted to be romantic in my roles basically. And I said, like, I didn't need to, I can play various roles and it doesn't necessarily attach to me like it would with someone like Tom Cruise where it's like you have a brand that you're pushing. Right, sure, sure.

But I said something along the lines of like, you know, you guys are performing when you're on this Twitch stream. Like you're presenting a version of yourself. And they all were like, no, we're not. This is us. And I was like, that's a really interesting perspective. Yeah. Because it's to me...

Are we training younger audiences and younger people to not even acknowledge the fact that they might have darker or weirder or things that they don't want to reveal? Because of the panopticon, are we just actually eliminating that part of our personality or pushing it so far down in the subconscious that we actually believe that the panopticon exists?

What people see is what we are. Yeah. And that was scary for the future of film for me because I was like, okay, then you don't need us to reveal ourselves on film anymore. You do just need. I don't know. I still think that no matter how repressed it becomes or suppressed or. It still exists. Well, I think that, you know, those moments, there are moments that you can have in well-written stories.

or film or anything that will find it. Pierce, yeah, pierce the veil. Yeah. Yes. And then all of a sudden you got to deal with like, what's happening to me? Yes, exactly. And you just, instead of crying, you're just shaking your leg and you don't know why your body is, I love that. I love that. That's, that is like the function of great art. And I would think that that works on you in a certain way. That's like me and my therapist. Yeah. Just coming out, you know, on Thursdays. Yeah. Where all of a sudden a connection is made. Yes. Yes.

Like that scene I think of like for some reason, the one that keeps coming up because I watch Black Mass a lot. Really? Yeah. God, you watch Black Mass a lot. Yeah. Yeah. It's become one of those movies. How does this hold up?

It gets better every time I watch it. Really? Yeah. I've only seen it once, I think. Because, like, you know, I think initially I was like, well, you know, the depth makeup was an obstacle for me. Yeah, overpowering. Yeah. But then once I got past that and I looked at the other performances in the script, actually, in terms of, you know, this is a gangster movie, you know, based on a real story. And it's fucking great. Yeah.

And it's just great. Like, you're great in it. Joel's great. Those performances, specifically... Yeah, that's depressing when he's in that place and he's got to kill the... Dude. But even in the... All the guys, when they're being... When they cut to the interrogation interviews, you know, there's those moments where, you know, they're interrogating Plemons and then the big guy who was also great, where, you know, having...

Lived in Boston and met real mobsters, guys who have killed people. There's something they're missing that is is is it's tangible. But you couldn't you know, it only comes from that. And for some reason, Rory, you know, got it. Yeah.

And so did the other guy, the big guy. You know, I forget his name. He's such an interesting dude, that guy, too. Who, Rory? I really liked him. Yeah, no, I interviewed him. It was not easy going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's in a deep place. Yeah, but he was so, I remember, like, loving him. Do you remember the movie Empire Records? Uh-uh. It's like a weird little comedy movie. I remember him in Dazed and Confused where he was just. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, same kind of character. But the moment that I was talking about with you.

is when you know you're fucked and Joel's like, no, no, we got this. We can get, you know, you remember you're like, we're, we're, we're killing kids or something. Yeah. We're, we're, you know, where they're onto you and to the, to the, to the, the scam with, with Whitey, where Kevin Bacon is. Yeah. And you know that the jig is up. And this is before you do the TV interview. Yeah. Or the newspaper interview where you decide to talk and,

But, you know, but Joel's sort of like, ah, we get out of this thing. And you're like, dude, what are you talking about? That moment, like, it'd be impossible for someone to watch that and be like, I don't get it. You know, like, it's like. I guess you're right.

And everyone has experienced that moment at some point in their life where it's like, no, it's over. It's like, what are you even thinking? And I think that ultimately is the moment you want from humanity in relationship. In relationship to the technology. And it's just that moment where you're like, holy shit, this is done. We've been found out. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know. Does that ever come? I mean, how does that come? My demented dad said something very interesting to me, and I can't get it out of my head because when they have dementia, there's a poetry to it, you know? Yes. And it was not really, it wasn't in context with anything. I mean, I talked to him, and he's still, you know, a good part of him is there.

But it's also a Zen thing, too. And I don't really know what to do with it. And it wasn't really connected to anything. But he said, you know, you got to take the consequences or create your own. Create your own consequences. Right. What does that mean? Exactly. Because it's like, that's all we do. That's what, like, the weird sort of shame-driven compulsive person who, like, you know, who can't stop himself. Right.

All you're doing is generating possible consequences or you're acknowledging that. You know, it's just, to me, it was such a weird, I don't know what to do with the poetry of it, but I like it. Wow. He's got dementia. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And he comes out with bangers like that. Sometimes. Wow. Sometimes he'll come out with a banger. And it does explain a lot about him, you know, where, you know, if you've got a guy who's, you know, living a secret life and getting away with it,

but knows that it's not right. Right. You know, the challenge is to create your own consequences enough to where you stop, you know, to where, you know, you are the guy saying it's over. Right. We're done. So you think humanity is going to be able to do this one day? I didn't say that. Oh, sorry.

I'm saying that's how we were going to wake up from the phone. It is, but I don't know if it's going to happen. Okay. I'd like to think that it depends if the technocrats win and we're all just given numbers instead of names. Yeah. Yeah. But wait, but you and I, you know, you, you know, coming out of like, I grew up,

primarily in the 70s. So what we were dealing with was the sort of wave crashing of the 60s, but everything that the 60s had to offer was there for us and it was fairly close by.

And so the arc of once computers happen and there was a time where you didn't know if anyone called you until you got home and checked your fucking machine. God, I love that time. Right. But there was a time of organic analog existence. Yes.

Locality. Yeah, and we have that foundationally. Yes. And that's all gone. Right. So in some ways, we are the keeper of a weird flame, you know, in that, you know, we were there for that. But it's very easy for the phone and for technology to erase even that part of our history because everything is available without context any time. Right. Yeah.

And, you know, I don't know. I tried to hold on to a bit of that in terms of, you know, what inspired me and what creative freedom looked like at a different time. Yeah, I talked to Pacino, you know. Really? Yeah. How recently? Right before the book. You went for the book. Oh, wow. How's he doing? It was great because...

It was really kind of life-changing for me in approaching acting, you know, because I was about to do a lead in a movie. And, you know, and I don't have an actor's confidence, really. And it's not my – it's not ingrained in me how to do it. Okay.

You know, but the thing that was most interesting about him is that I didn't know him and I know his work. And a lot of that work is very intense and very controlled and has a certain amount of swagger and confidence to it. And I thought that's what I was going to be dealing with. No.

No. He's a sweetie. He's a sweetie. He's a mess. Yeah. And he's like still chasing it. You know what I mean? Loves acting. Yeah. He's very aware. But the thing that blew my mind away, that blew me away was that, you know, he never looked at it, you know, until he had to make compromises because he's not great with money, but he never looked at it as anything other than a pursuit of truth. Yes. Yes.

Yes. And I think that in light of what we're talking about, like whether film is going to be important or what we do is important or all this stuff that, you know, the artist's mind and that he was so clear on it from an early age when he was, you know, hanging around the living theater, you know, cleaning up with Martin Sheen. Yeah. That what he saw was that this is a, this is, you know, it's a finding truth film.

In the craft and in the arts and that he still has that. It's not a job. Right. And I think that. I mean, that's what I was raised on, too. Right. That's what I'm saying about what we came up with and how that, you know, it's very easy to, you know, to sort of generalize about like, I don't know if kids are watching movies.

But the truth is, is that... Yeah, what are kids drawn to? But our job is... Well, they're drawn to truth. Whether they can identify it for real or not, I don't know. That's what's becoming a problem, both in terms of just basic news, but I think also on the level of one's individual humanity. When you have a kid that says, you know... Well, I mean, truth also. Truth is... Is truth empathy or is it survival of the fittest? Like...

you know, when you're saying being drawn to something. I mean, I think Al is a very sort of big, big hearted, empathetic person. That's why he's acting in the things he does. And even when he's playing gangsters and killers, he's searching for that humanity within them. That's right. Searching for this love. Right. Yeah. But you could look at the world and say like, oh, it's a shit show of capitalist swagger on who's going to be on top. I get that. And as a kid, you're like, that's what I want to be. I

I want to be the dominant. I want to win. I want to win. Yeah. And I think that, you know, the fight is not only technological, but the fight is for truth itself. Right. Truth itself. Right. And also what is foundational to civilization. I mean, I get. And like, do we want to be civilized anymore? That's the question. Yeah. Do we want to be civilized? Well, that's the Hannah Arendt. That's why I'm festering on that.

That, you know, once a culture loses empathy, it's at the precipice of barbarism. For sure. So you're saying that people don't have that knowing laugh. No. See, and that to me, I mean, now we bring it back. That's scary because you're not even aware that there's this battle going on. Yes, because they really have one. Well, fundamentally, authoritarianism is not a it's not a it's not civilized.

You know, the idea of civilization and certainly democracy is that, you know, it's about diversity and equality and tolerance and respect for marginalized or vulnerable people that we all kind of rise together. And that's fueled by empathy. Right. And that seems to be, you know, historically challenging, but nonetheless, idealistically, the best way.

And so once that goes, you know, once that starts to tip towards people being able to other, you know, like it's not just, you know, blacks or gays or Jews, but this sort of catch all phrase of woke. Well, that's that's you know, that's that those are all the good people. So once you be careful because you.

You don't want to other the other side as well. Yes, I do. Well, you're playing a zero-sum game then because you're not... Am I? What am I fighting for? Are we fighting for truth? No, we're fighting for community. Okay. And so I think that like you have to... I don't know. I mean, I think that...

Look, when I talk to them one-on-one, I'm fine. And we're fine. Well, that's the thing. No, no, I get that. People are people. And I think that the fight we're fighting is the technology. I mean, the fight we're fighting is the- And the brain fuckness. Yeah. But it's the thing itself. It's the form itself. It's not the people. No, I get it. But the people are being manipulated to a point where they lose their humanity. So how do you, like, you know, I don't know how you get that back.

And certainly some of them, you know, I'm sure a lot of the Nazis were like, you know, what do you need, a donut? You know, so. I mean, it's a tough one to bring up because it's impossible to, like, challenge that.

Once you bring a Nazi into it, it's impossible to argue anything other than... No, no, no. All I'm saying is I knew some Nazis. Great guys. You know, we used to go... I mean, you're right. You sort of lay down your trump card with that one. The trump card. To double entendre. Sorry, I didn't mean to. Yeah. But...

But I guess what I'm landing on here in terms of our question about, you know, what is the significance or relevance of what we do is that that pursuit of humanity, community through truth in art or performance is all we can do on some level. Is all we can do. Yes. Agreed. And all we, at this point, I'm thinking all we should do.

Is it going to work? I don't know. Right, but it's the only place where I have a gun in the fight. It's the only place where I can be effective. I've realized it's really the only place, you know, if I can show something beautiful, if I can embarrass

myself in a certain way to make you realize that it's okay to live another day with a more of an open heart yeah yeah see someone as human as opposed to a monster yeah then yeah that's the that to me that is the battlefront and it's the and it's the skill set that I have to so great yeah well I think we did it did we do it did we even start is this thing on oh fuck I didn't turn it on Jesus Christ wow

We did it. We picked up right where we left off. Elves in the corners. Yeah, elves in the corners. And here we are. Yeah, well, we got rid of the elves. We moved past the elves. Yeah, we moved past the elves. Thank God. We're into Zen now. I'm still, I'm back in the self, though. Yeah. I don't know where I'm going to go from here. Well, I mean, you know, it's a long day. It's a long day. It's early. I got plenty of time. It's early. I got plenty of time. Give me a cup of coffee. We'll see where I am. Good to talk to you again. Yeah, you as well.

There you go. Thunderbolts opens in theaters everywhere tomorrow. Hang out for a minute, folks.

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Okay, people, there's a new bonus episode full of outtakes and edits from recent shows available now for Fullmarin subscribers. You can hear what it was like the day Nick Thune came over and my audio mixer crapped out. How did you feel about that? I was kind of spiraling out and I saw somebody spiral worse than that this week. So I am. Well, this was minor. Yeah, this was nothing. I mean, what was the worst one?

A similar situation. A sound situation? No, it was a boss to an employee, and it was just, you know, passive, aggressive, and... Nightmare. Yeah. So the boss was mistreating. Yeah, and for you, you're just mistreating your equipment. And myself. Yeah.

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