Episode 1646 - Nick Kroll
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All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. Today, I talk to Nick Kroll. Now, Nick has been on a lot. This is the sixth time he's been on the show by himself on episode 12. That's a long time ago. With John Mulaney on episode 743.

And as El Chupacabra on three other occasions. And those are rare because I doubt that you could really do that character anymore. He's in the new film, I Don't Understand You. And the final season of Big Mouth is now streaming on Netflix. And Nick, I guess, you know, I have to kind of give credit where credit is due. And I think I do, usually. But it's an interesting thing as a comic or as someone who is me when...

When I really think people are funny, it is such an exciting thing for me. And forever, I believe, and I still believe this to this day, that Nick Kroll naturally, just innately, is really one of the funniest people around. And, you know, I think I kind of tell him that to his face. I don't know. Did I?

Maybe I'm a little maybe I hold back a little bit, but truly a very funny, gifted, overly talented person. How could I just make being talented kind of a slight? He's overly talented, but I get it. I get a big kick out of him. And it was it's always fun to talk to the guy.

And in another way, I guess another thing that I kind of wanted to talk about because it seems to be kind of possessing me. Well, first, I want to mention Brent Weinbach, who was on episode 839, has a new special out, new stand-up special. It's called Brent Weinbach Popular Culture, and you can watch that on YouTube right now. Now, Brent, he's a whole other ball of wax. I don't know if you know Brent, but that is a world of comedy where it's sort of –

I don't know. I don't know how you would describe it. There is a school of comedy that it kind of moves through anti-comedy and kind of hyper abstract comedy and just oddball ish comedy, but stuff that's challenging, maybe a little cringy. And for the most part in my life, not not totally my cup of tea, really. I can appreciate it and I know when it's done well.

And, you know, I did have some moments when I watched that Andy Kaufman doc that, you know, made me rethink it. Or maybe I'm I'm older and I'm less stuck in my ways around, you know, what I think stand up is or what I think comedy is. You know, I've I've definitely broadened my mind, but I will say this. And the only reason I'm talking about it, it's not some sort of plug, but I'm surprised at my own.

experience and reaction to it because I've struggled with Nathan Fielder just as an artist for a while because there's something fundamentally about him that makes me uncomfortable. It's not that I don't like him. There's just certain people that make me uncomfortable and it is part of his thing. I mean, he does either intentionally or just by being challenge you to reckon with him

And I've watched a few of his shows. I watched the first season of the rehearsal. I watched The Curse, which I think was the beginning of my moment with Fielder, was the last episode of The Curse. I liked the first season of the rehearsal. I thought it had all the elements of cringe and impact and humanity there.

But the last episode of The Curse, the thing he did with, I guess, who was it, Josh Safdie or Ben? Which one is it? One of those Safdies and Emma Stone. There is, look, rarely in a series, and I'm finding this more so than not, do I have the patience to get through it? And, you know, there have been some sort of, some comedy series, but most series in general, once the premise is set up,

And then you're in it. And then after a few episodes of that, it's sort of like, all right, I get it. Now what? There's just a redundancy to it. And then they'll throw a new character in, which is clearly, you can tell, written in to keep the thing going. It just drags out. I'm not sure that anything really needs to be more than six episodes in general. That aside, this new season of the rehearsal, Nathan Fielder's thing, I can't seem to shut up about it.

Because it is so rare, and look, this is only my opinion, but it's so rare that there is something that is created that actually possesses true genius. I know this sounds, why am I talking about this? Because I really believe that there is something comedically genius in a way that no one's ever seen before.

About this particular season of this show, the rehearsal, because I don't even know that I can explain it. But the fact that, you know, he is supported and given money to realize this completely unique and fucked up weird vision of exploring things is first a testament to HBO. And in terms of, you know, who they choose to support and produce and have and believe in.

But where this show starts and where it ends up and the kind of thing where, you know, Fielder, who is kind of a mysterious guy and, you know, kind of, I think, I don't know if he refuses to do this show, but he won't do it. Because I think he's got not so much a lot to hide, but a certain mystique to maintain. You know, I know that he started in stand-up as sort of an anti-comic, which always used to annoy me. But now over time, he has found this zone of his own comedy that

through these shows that is just completely unique, completely bizarre, completely uncomfortable and, and just utterly fucking inspired. And you got to wait for it, but it's so rare that you're waiting for something to unfold and it's satisfying and kind of mind bending and just kind of like, what the fuck? This is crazy. And laughing, but,

But boy, that what is it? The third, maybe the third episode of this season of the rehearsal and all of them. He's exploring air safety. He kind of got he nerded out on. He obsessively researched an issue, a very specific issue in air safety, which is that a lot of airline crashes were preceded by an argument or a lack of communication in the cockpit. So.

What he sets out to do at the beginning of this season of the rehearsal is try to solve that problem. You know, how do we get pilots and co-pilots communicating more openly about

So you don't have this sort of ego issue of someone deciding not to do something that the co-pilot may suggest. How do you open up the lines of communication so there's other thoughts in moments of crisis that are communicated in the cockpit? That is the premise of this show.

And from there, you just move through some of Nathan's experiences in trying to get shows made and getting shows sort of taken off servers. You kind of deal with some of his own what you'd assume psychological problems are. And then he, through the course of unfolding this story,

or experiment to try to get pilots communicating better, you know, you see a lot of elements of him trying to be resolved. So, you know, he is actually changing the

Through him as himself, I assume as himself, is changing through this thing. And then his comedy chops, which are very intentional because you can't produce a show like this. There's a lot of improv and a lot of actors brought in. There's a there's a talent show element. But through the course of him trying to resolve this air safety problem, he's reckoning with himself, his past, you know, his creativity, his job, his neurological disposition, his

It ultimately becomes all about him. But the lengths he goes to get there, either intentionally or not, are fucking insane and inspired. And it's fucking, it's comedic genius. And I don't want to say that because I'm an insecure, jealous, resentful old fuck who is not always willing to give it up. But I got to give it up.

And, you know, it might not be for you. He may not be for you, you know, but I think that you should force yourself to to just let it happen, man.

to just let it happen because there's a level of cringe comedy in there. It's just rare. Somebody pulls something out of their brain and, and then manifests it with a good amount of money that is completely original and inspired. And I think that if you want to talk about comedy as art, if you want to do that, which I am, I'm wary to do generally, but,

Maybe you can talk about it cinematically, you know, as a comedy movie or whatever. But if you want to talk about comedy as art and art in the broad sense of the word where you're really just talking about freedom of expression and a commitment to a vision that is provocative and new, this is it.

So there you go, Nathan. I'm not blowing smoke up your ass, and I was reluctant to do it. But congratulations for the great mind-bending, inspired work of genius that you've contributed to what is sort of a flailing period in...

And comedy of all kinds. This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. And life is easier for us thanks to Squarespace. That's because our website, WTFpod.com, is a big part of what we do. And with Squarespace, we never have to worry about updates or bugs or not being able to post something that we want to post. Squarespace has it all covered. Plus, Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services and get paid online.

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And with Blueprint AI, Squarespace helps you design a fully custom website in just a few steps. Check out squarespace.com slash WTF for a free trial. And then when you're all set to launch your new site, use offer code WTF to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash WTF. Offer code WTF. Oh, yeah, I did see another movie, too. I went to see Friendship.

Because, again, in talking about comedy brilliance, Tim Robinson, I've been brought around to him. He is a brilliant and inspired and gifted buffoon of a very specific type, a great clown. And that character that he plays, which seems to be the character he plays,

is kind of spectacular. The idea of the completely narcissistic, aggravated buffoon is pretty, it's relative to the time we live in. That is the strain of human disposition that is very prominent in the world we're living in now.

So I think there is a reflection of that in him. And he's tremendously funny. And I think you should leave the show always. It just I'm not unlike Fielder. There's a zone that these guys get into where you can't, you know, you can't predict it. You can't figure it out. You don't know where it comes from, but it is pure comedy.

So anyway, Nick Kroll is here. And again, one of my favorite funny people. The film he's in, I Don't Understand You, comes out Friday, June 6th. The final season of Big Mouth is streaming on Netflix. You can watch all eight seasons there as well. And this is me and Nick Kroll. ♪

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These are the kind of texts you get after a certain point. For my dad's wife, Mark, your father's funeral arrangements are completed. I signed the paperwork and payment today. Thank you. We love you. Dad and Rosie. That's a load off. Yeah.

Oh, good. Well, I mean, on some level, you're blessed in that there are a lot of people who they or their partner are not capable of that. No, yeah. And she was obsessing about it and she was like coming up a little short. And I'm like, dude, it's my dad. I'll send you the money. I have no kids. Yeah. And...

This is the kind of things I want to pay for. This is why I chose not to have kids so I could pay for my dad's death. And not worry about it. Yeah, just not worry about it. Not take too big. You just take care of it as long as I don't have to be there. Yeah. That's the best part of this. Please just stay alive. Just keep him going. Hang in there. Hang in there. But when it comes, and it will. Yeah, I'll be there and it'll be all paid for. I'll be there in money. I'll be there in... Yeah, they have to ship him back to New Jersey. Mm-hmm.

That's what he wants. Really? Yeah. He wants to go get buried in Jersey? Yeah. Is there a cemetery? Is there a family cemetery? I guess, yeah, by my grandparents out there down the shore. And I guess there's a few of them out there. His wife doesn't care. She's like, you know, once I'm gone, I don't care. You can just put me out with the trash. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Well, that's what we're doing. Does that go into compost?

They have that now, dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fucking nuts. Yeah. You can literally just go get a... You can go get compost. Yeah, mushroom sack. But it's crazy. Like, it's because they show it. Like, they have a whole process where...

You know, you literally, they let you decay and then they grind you up into soil. Oh, wow. They grind it? It's the whole thing. I thought, I in my mind was like, you're in a mushroom like body sack. Well, they have that too. And the fungus like starts to help break you down, right? That's green burial. Yeah. And I don't think they just put the body and let that do it. Right. But there is a place where- But the grinding is where-

That's really what I'm about. That's the pitch where it gets tough for me. Why is it any worse than burning? Yeah, sure. But I mean, I think there is a place where I don't know if you get your loved one available in a package of potting soil. It's not an urn. You can plant them. You have a pot? Yeah. Start to let them. Well, that would be the best. Right? I guess so.

So I don't know. But yeah, he's going to go back to Jersey. My grandparents, my other grandparents buried in Jersey. I'm not even sure where they are. My mother. Would you? Well, you're like, I must be. I've been there. No, no, I've been through the. It's over in like Elizabeth, New Jersey, next to a Budweiser factory. Sure. And the fucking worst industrial part of town is like this little Jewish cemetery tucked away with all the sagging graves. Because the pine box idea. It's like, well, you're going to have to fill in once it falls into the hole.

You got to fill in the top a little bit with your pine box. That's not what they paid for. They got a good deal. They got a good deal on the pine box. Yeah, you know the older ones are the ones that literally have about a four inch to ten inch sack. That might be nice to go rest in. Sure. It's got a better curvature. You got to put a rock. Yeah, you put one rock. Are all your people still alive? Anyone dead? All my grandparents are dead now. I lost my last grandmother at...

almost right on my birthday. Happy birthday. Thank you. That was it. It was the week. It was a crazy, um, it's a crazy week. She was almost, she was a hundred, 101 years, almost 101 years old. Yeah. Uh,

Which, who's mom? My mom's mom. 101. Almost 101 years old. Her first memory is remembering hearing like a horse-drawn ambulance in Brooklyn in like 1921. So they were first-generation immigrants. She was, yeah. No, her parents were, her parents, yes, she was first-generation. But like her parents, yeah, but that must have been. My great-grandparents were born in. What, 1900s she was born? 1900? 1919. Wow. Wow.

Yeah. That's amazing. And then she died. So it was right around this time, five years ago, the height of the pandemic. When's your birthday? June 5th. Oh, coming up. Yeah. What are you, 70? I'm 71 years old.

So it was right around this time. It was right around this time. Yeah. My now wife, Lily, and I, we got pregnant in the height of the pandemic. It was like a full mating in captivity. Yeah. I just talked to someone else who did that. And found out on her birthday...

May 29th that she was, that we were pregnant. It was also the weekend of the George Floyd murder and the, like the insanity of that weekend. Yeah. Yeah. It was the weekend we found out that we were pregnant. So excitement and oh. And then like, yeah, like helicopter. Remember how many helicopters there were? It was just such, and then Trump, you know, did the Bible upside, the upside down backwards Bible. Sure, the satanic signaling. Yeah.

The, the, if you, if you cross-reference, uh, Revelation and, uh, the Nostradamus, the upside down Bible, that was the beginning of it. Yeah. It's so funny to think of Nostradamus being like, not even wanting to pitch Trump. Yeah. It's just like, it's a bummer. It's hacky and it's a bummer. I'm not going to do it. Um, so then, uh, we, that Monday I find out that my grandmother's on her deathbed.

But you were like, okay. It wasn't like, what? I was like, how? She just turned 100. This can't be happening. This can't be happening. I talked to her three months ago.

For two minutes. Yeah. And she, no, she was actually incredibly sharp, amazingly sharp. So fucking smart. Yeah. Her whole life and such an interesting person. And then, so we told her my brother went to visit on their death. Again, it was that COVID time. Nobody was anywhere. They were in, they're in Westchester. And my brother brought us a FaceTime me with her as she was like, you know, just like lying in bed, faintly breathing. And we told, she was the first person that we told that we were pregnant.

And it was really kind of an amazing... And it got through? I mean, yeah.

Yeah, we told her, I go, we're about to have a baby. So get the fuck off the planet. Yeah. You've been replaced. You know, you can go. We got a new one. Yeah. And then, and then that was on like Wednesday and Friday was my birthday. And you didn't fly out. Couldn't fly. She died. No, it was too early. It wasn't COVID. It was super COVID. And she died that Friday. She died on my birthday. Not from COVID. Not from COVID. Oh, that's good.

Wow. She really was still pretty dead. She was staying after. 100%. Yeah. Her mind was in a good place. Yeah, her mind was in a great place. Yeah, she just died. Anyway. So that was that one. That was that one. That was that week. That's my birthday. And every year there was a hawk that landed on her porch.

like the week that she was dying that was in the community but like landed and just sat on her porch for like a day. Yeah. And when she died? Yeah, it was like the two days she died and then The birds know, man. The birds know. I have a, yeah, I did a whole bit about that after Lynn died that the birds were kind of like hanging around. Yeah.

And I don't know what it is. I think if you're going to pick an animal to represent the spirit of a person, make it a fucking bird. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like that dog across the street. That fucking idiot dog. That's my ex. That's my late partner. Yeah. Just keeps eating his own shit. She was so like that. Yeah, that's what she was. Yeah.

And then last year on my birthday, I was at my house and there were hawks that live around us. And this fucking hawk that never comes to our house flew like 10 feet over my house for like a half an hour. And you were like grandma. I was like grandma, my birthday, and most importantly, the Trump Bible. Yes. And I'm sorry about the Floyd thing. Yeah. Let me ask you a question about a Jewish question. Because I'm really trying to source this out.

So I had Modi on. Yes. And it was exciting. He's an exciting fellow. Indeed. And I'm happy for his success because God knows he earned it. He's very Jewish. Yes. And very Israeli and very, you know, he talks a lot about Moshiach, Moshiach energy. Moshiach energy. Moshiach energy. Oh, you know the Modi thing. Yeah. I was just listening on the way here. I was getting ready. So, you know, he goes. It was fine. He gave me a hat, the Moshiach energy hat. Mazel. Mazel.

And about a week later, I get a package. Mm-hmm. And in the package, there's a framed item. And before I unwrap the item, I read the card, and it says, Mark, I'd like to do it as Modi, I couldn't help but notice. When I left your house, I saw there was no mezuzah outside. Mm-hmm.

So I got you this, and it's a framed Shema. It's like, it's the mezuzah scroll in a frame. Oh, okay. So it's not, okay, not the mezuzah itself for the door. But here's how I read it. I'm like...

This is guilt-driven? Sure. Like, you shitty Jew, are you afraid to represent by showing a mezuzah outside of your house? If that's the case, you shitty Jew, maybe you could put this inside the door. Yeah. Am I misreading that? I mean, I think that's...

A mild way of putting it. I mean, I'm not saying he's a bad guy or anything. I thought it was brilliant. It's sort of ancient Jewish guilt. Yes. How could you cowardly fuck...

Why isn't there a mezuzah? Why don't you want the world to know where to come get you? But as compromised, because I know how weak-willed you are, let me give you something that you print out, you put it inside, nobody knows, but it's there. Yeah, yeah. So you get the protection that you don't deserve. Yes, yes, yes. Which is, I feel like a little bit of a conversation about what Israel and American Jews are. Elijah will have to come all the way in.

To realize he's at the right house. He'll come and sit inside and he'll see it and he'll be like, all right, it's okay. He didn't have it outside, but okay. But what, like, let's get this out of the way. How do you feel about this movie? I don't understand you? Yeah. How do I feel about it? I like the movie a lot. How do you feel about this movie? Well, I watched it and I don't know if I'm the right audience. First of all, I'm not a horror. All right, can we use that for the poster? Sure.

I know it might be a little late. I don't know if I'm right on it's Mark Maron. Yeah. All right. We'll take it.

No, because like, well, here's my experience, because I know like I'm not a horror guy. So I would put this in the horror comedy genre. Sure. Right? Is that what it is? I think that's a fair way to talk about it. Okay. Yeah. It's a horror comedy drama. It's like a little, but with like a farce. I mean, I guess that would fall into the comedy portion of it. Farce. Yes. That's the word I want. Yeah. Because I think you got to know that going in. Uh-huh. Right. I really think it's important. Right.

Right. Well, that's what's been interesting about sort of either promoting it and how they're promoting it. Yeah. Because I think it's been interesting hearing people be like, no, audiences need to know what they're getting. Yeah, because I didn't know anything about it. You just thought you were watching a rom-com-y kind of thing with me and Andrew Rannells. Yeah, it's like a gay rom-com-y thing. And this is good. This is not really a stretch for Nick, but finally. Yeah.

Can we use that for the pull quote for the poster? Not really a stretch for Cole, but finally. Yeah, yeah. He's free. Yeah. Let me know.

But, like, so I'm watching it, and I'm like, all right, so, well, this is cute. And then I text my producer. I'm like, what am I watching? Is this, like, he goes, I think something happens. Yeah, there you go. Maybe that should have just been the trailer. I think something happened. And then something happened. But here's my whole thing. It's, like, the arc of the thing. Like, I know it's a style, and the sort of attitudes that you two have sort of –

Self-involved, only thinking about the baby, on your anniversary trip to Italy, and this farce occurs. You know, like, I didn't really know the framework, but obviously, you know, once, you know, the first accident happens, we're in a different zone. Yes. And then we live in that other zone. Yeah. Yeah. But, like...

after all is said and done, you know, there's part of me that still wants to frame it as just a regular movie. Sure. And when you look at it in that light, it's like, those guys just got away with it. Yes. And now they're happy parents. Yeah. Maybe that should have been the pull quote. Those guys just got away with it and now they're happy parents.

You're like, great, so we don't need to watch it. We know what happened. But I hear you, and it was interesting to do it that way. How would I explain this? Why did you take the movie? Well, I took the movie because I love...

Andrew Rannells. He and I know each other. Great guy. Great guy. Unbelievably talented. So funny. So funny. And we worked together a bunch. He's been on Big Mouth since the beginning. And David and Brian, who directed the movie, I knew a little bit. And it's really based on their story. It's based on both of them both trying to adopt a baby and getting scammed originally and then finally being able to adopt their son who's in the film. That's a side note. Yes. Okay.

It's like, you know, I think, I guess I was expecting that movie. Sure. Exactly. And then they had a nightmare vacation to Italy, which then they combined and be like, Oh, we're dealing with this thing. And then we have this true nightmare vacation, Italy, which is like them getting stuck in a ditch. Like we do, you know, just like everything falling apart. And then they heighten it with combining them into one thing. So I took the movie because I, I knew them and I liked all of them. And yeah,

It just seemed fun. And got you to Italy? And it was like, I'll go to Rome. And my wife and I, Lily and I, were like, we'll go to Rome. Have you been there? I've been there, yeah. I've been there over the years a good amount of times. And so it's like, oh, my God. In your mind when you're a kid or when you're starting, you're like, maybe one day I'll get to make a movie and live in Italy. Yeah. Just be talented Miss Ripley. Did you do that? Yeah.

How long were you there? So we were in Rome for like six weeks. Oh, that's great. It was great. However, we had just gotten pregnant with our second kid. Oh, who died? Some dog in the neighborhood. The one that ate his own shit? It was a sign. And my son was like around two and he was like,

So we got to Rome. It's a hard trip with a two-year-old. It was like a two-year-old and we had, you know, and I was working nights. It's so much the movies at night. What a fucking nightmare. So you got to sleep all day. So yeah. And it was like 45 minutes outside of Rome and it was just like wet and I was wet the whole time. And then I'd come home at five in the morning after a night shoot for a month.

I'd sleep for like two hours. Then my son would wake up and like was two and was done with our nanny. It was revolting on all levels. And so I would sleep for like another hour. And then I'd go, but then I'd go to the park with him and via Borghese, do you know that? Have you been to spend time in Rome at all? Once. It's fucking DC. It's fine. I actually don't. I'm like, it's fine. Really? Yeah. I just sold it to my producers going, I'm like, it's fine.

It lives up to your expectations. Rome does. Yes. Like if you've never been there and you go there, you're like, holy shit. Yes. Like all the art, all the architecture, all that stuff. How long are you there for? Three days. Yeah. You go in, get it done. You have the nice food. Yeah. You walk around. There's the fountain. The fountain, yeah, of course. That's the Pope's house. Yeah, it's great. The Pope's house. Did you go to the Vatican? Yes. Oh.

Did you? Not this time. I've been before, and I was literally working the whole time. We were living right near the Spanish Steps, like in that where it's like Times Square. Oh, yeah. And it was a beautiful place. We had a really gorgeous place to live at the top. It was really amazing. But it was like the busker started at like 7.30 a.m. With the boom boxes? No, with like electric violins playing Coldplay. Yeah.

You know what I mean? It's the worst when you... It's incredible how quickly sound can destroy a fucking vacation. Yeah. You know, you're just like... No. No! And it really did so, but I mean, Rome is...

and a wonderful place, but it was not what I had envisioned in my head of what this was going to be. The romantic idea of shooting a film in Rome. Yeah, with my wife, and we were going to travel, and we did do some cool shit, but it just was... Two-year-old, how pregnant was she? She was in her first trimester, so it was just... Oh, so that's okay. But it was not a... It was a tough... It was a... Like, I know anything. No, first trimester. Yeah. Not a problem. Yeah.

Never had a kid. You haven't had a kid? No. Physically, you've never had a kid? No. It's not too late, Mark. That's what I hear. But I think it's too late for me to... When did you decide that you didn't want to have a kid?

Or did you decide? You know, I think the decision happened when, here's what it really was. I'm not against kids, but the truth be told, I never once thought about having one. Sure. That was really it. Yeah, that's fair. And when I was married the first time and she all of a sudden, you know, with no knowledge, I had no knowledge, she was taking prenatal vitamins. I'm like, I got to get out of this. So, I

I have nothing against children, but I feel like I'm fundamentally too selfish and too panicky and too, I can't trust my emotions. Sure. So like, you know, all of it. But the fact that I never once considered it. Yeah. In any real way. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a good call. I think that works. That works for you. And it's better for your unborn offspring. Yeah. My brother's got three. He adopted three over time.

And, like, even when I see people with kids, even when people tell me, like, you know, it really is something, it changed your life, the whole sort of, like, cult of children propaganda, which is real. Sure. I'm like, yeah, still not moving me. Yeah. I'm not...

I have 12 nieces and nephews, and before I had kids, I was like, I'm good for right now. I kind of in my head, because it's so much a part of the family, that I was like, I assume I'll have kids. But I was not, until I did it, I was not like, oh, my God, I'm itching to have children. Right. And then I did it, and it's been amazing. But also, it is like, for people who have not had kids, I'm not like, oh, my God, you must have children. Well, I think it does round you out.

Sure. Yes, it's a more complete life for me. Yeah, and I think that, you know, my... I think my fear is...

in that how I grew up emotionally that I don't know that I could necessarily protect my kids from that. Uh-huh. From, you know, lack of boundaries over, you know, worrying. I was brought up, I not, it wasn't love as much as it was panic. Sure. Well, it's love, love masked as panic or panic masked. No, I think, yeah. It was just straight panic. It was just worry. And like, you know, everybody, we were just appendages. Yes. Of a very selfish people.

Save that for the funeral, Mark. Save that for the Zoom eulogy that you deliver a minute. Should I respond to my dad's wife? I just want to pitch some ideas for my eulogy. Yeah, appendages. Of a narcissist. No, but I think the panic and the worry, like I have this anxiety problem anyways. I don't know how that wouldn't...

It would heighten. Whatever happens when you have children, it just becomes a mirror and it heightens and magnifies whatever your shit is. Yeah. You're pretty well grounded guy, I think, emotionally. I like to, I think so most of the time, but I think having children has made me understand a very different element of myself that I have, I think, subjugated for my whole life. That you just had stuff down? Yeah. Really? Just like anger and things like that. Oh. Like real rage. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or just because I see it in my small child, who's just like an amazing creature, little person. Yeah. Who is deeply and openly emotional in a way that I am uncomfortable with. Sure. That's why you mask it with your funniness. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's like, let's deflect and move it this way at all times. And then this, he's just like. Wide open. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And then it makes me rageful that it was happening. But not at him, just in general? Well, sort of in general, but I was like that I, you know, that I would like raise my voice with him in a way that I haven't raised my voice with anyone in my life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, that feels great. That's like real. So what'd you do about that? I told, he learned to fucking shut his mouth. Yeah.

He's a frightened kid now. He does not express himself anymore. And that's the way I want it. I've shut it down and I'm happy about it. We're all, we're very comfortable now.

Did you have to like go to get help? Oh, always. I have, I'm seeing, I used to have a joke in my head. I was like, I got to talk to my therapist. Yeah. And I'm now like, I now see a multitude of therapists. Really? Yeah. Like for, I have a therapist, therapist who looks like Franny McDormand. Oh, that's good. Which is awesome. Yeah. Solid person. Uh,

And then I... Talk therapist. Talk therapist. And then you have a psychiatrist. No, I don't have a psychiatrist. Oh, you just have another therapist. I mean, I got a guy on the side who I... Yeah, sure. If I need something. If I need something. Going on the road and I need to stay awake or whatever. Take the edge off. Yeah. Stay up and do some work. Stay up or then take the edge off. I got a psychiatrist for that. You got a Dr. Nick. Yeah. I got a special doctor. Yeah. And then I've got a...

marriage couple stuff that we talk to someone. Oh, yeah. And then like a parenting therapist who we talk to about our kids and how to talk. It's interesting with all these therapists, where do you find time for the children? Yeah.

Well, we cross over in the lobby in the waiting room when they're seeing their therapist. At two? Yeah, we say hi. We sort of like, we acknowledge each other. We all know we're all seeing someone and then they go in for their session. But you find that because I- Over-therapized? No. I mean, I think it's a luxury, but it's- Oh, it's a deep luxury. And it's not a bad thing. But I have found, like I just started going again recently. Mm-hmm.

Because I decided, and Mulaney... But everything seemed fine, Mark. That's what Mulaney said. Like, I did his show. He was running shit at Largo, and I talked about, like, finally, you know, getting on some medication. And Mulaney gets out there and goes, wait, this is the first time Mark decided to do that medication? We've all been going through his life, all this, and he's never... He never even gave us the opportunity to get himself on meds? Um...

Well, I mean, I did a little bit way back, you know, but not for long. But the anxiety thing was, you know, starting to become kind of... Debilitating? Well, just sort of like what, you know...

Is this normal? Like, for some reason, my insistence that secretly everyone is exactly like me, that I'm going to speak to you as if you're hiding me inside of you. Sure. Almost as if they're an appendage to your narcissism. Exactly. Yeah, sure. And I think I finally realized, like, no, dude, they're laughing at you.

They're not laughing with you, which is fine. Sure. Yeah. We'll take it. Of course. But it's funny. I'm doing a bit on my show about that because in the special I just shot about my feelings about SSRIs because I'm weird about them. And I know they work for people. Sure. But for me, I just don't want to be...

You know, I don't want it to cloud my whatever. Of course. But I went to a psychiatrist to get evaluated. And I said, I'm not comfortable with the SSRIs because it's just me. I know they work. I have to keep saying that because anytime I bring up my aversion to SSRIs, I get emails from people going like, you know, it's really negative. Sure, sure. But he suggested this other medication. He said it's a more focused dopamine thing. And it's primarily for you have obsessional anxiety. Yeah.

And it's for that. And then he says, it generally doesn't work for people. I'm like, that sounds like the right drug for me. Yeah, I'll take that one. The one that doesn't work. I'll do that in a medium. And, you know, dude, fuck it. Let's do four of them. Let me get out of here. I think it might be working a little bit. I went back to him for a re-eval, and he said, I think we're at 30%.

And we're looking for 50. I'm like, great. He says, why don't you take a little more? I'm like, no problem. But we'll see. Have you felt the cloudiness at all or anything? No, no. It doesn't have that one. It may be a little dizzy thing. But no, I haven't felt that detachment. But I do think it's stopping some of the ruminating. Yeah.

The question on everybody's mind is stopping those rock-hard boners. No, that's the other thing. It's funny, I have this shrink who I won't do Zoom. I'm like, I'm going in person. I want to sit on the couch. I want to judge a guy. I want to know where he's at. I want to be on equal standing here with you. But when I went to get rechecked just last week, he's like, well, the only other alternative is, you know,

the Prozac or something. And then he literally says, but that has the sexual side effects with an intention. He leaned in on that one. In person, you could really feel him. Yeah, exactly. But there's part of me that thinks like, I think I'm done with that too. Sure. In general. In general. Yeah, maybe the anxiety. Maybe it's all connected. Let's just get rid of the hard-ons and get rid of the anxiety. Maybe I can enjoy life. Put it all down. Those are my two big problems. Those are the...

My dick and my panic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're tied together. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, I was going to say they're absolutely not tied. There's no connection between the two. Of course. So we'll see. Yeah. Are you on medicine? No. You fucking pussy. I am... I've thought about it at times. Um...

For what? For more like ADHD stuff. I can't like. People say I have that. I don't think I have that. Yeah. Do people have given you that? I think. They say I have it, but the doctor didn't say I have it. He said obsessional anxiety. I tried it over the years. I tried to get it over the years since like high school and all my friends were on like Ritalin and Adderall.

So you wanted ADHD. I wanted it. Yeah. Because I wanted it in college to study, and I wanted it because it was just a fucking upper. Yeah, yeah. But I didn't have... I was not overly drawn to it at any point, or like Coke or any of that stuff. It just didn't... It was not a... Yeah.

Or you're a good boy, Nick. Well, but I'm functionally not in many other ways. But like the big ticket items were not – like none of that stuff ever was that interesting to me. So medication, no. But I do – yeah. Yeah.

I definitely, I mean, I do like, not much, but like plant medicine. Like what? Like, you know. Microdose? Microdosed a little bit. That never grabbed me either, but like, you know, mushrooms and like ayahuasca and all that stuff. You do ayahuasca? Uh-huh. Not, no, not like, no, not.

not on the daily well because we are whatever you're doing we are who we are and we have to continue dealing with there's no silver bullet for any of it but i think that's the trick yeah i think that if you can get yourself some space yeah to to you know uh accurately assess yourself like if you get some separation from the symptom and you can sort of stand beside it and go like all right i can see that well and i think the the psychedelics are a shorthand for that it's like a little bit of a

like a cliff notes to get in there faster than doing the actual, but what's a, what's a, cause like, you know, I'm sober. So like, uh, yeah. Any, anything that hints at that type of drug, which is unregulated or unprescribed, you know, that's a slippery slope. Yes, of course. The microdose, like when you took that, what would you feel? Microdose? Not much. I never did a regular microdose of acid or mushrooms. And that didn't grab me so much, although I'm sure it would be interesting because I do find a certain focus on

In using those kinds of things in a way that are helpful, can be helpful. But it never that didn't grab me. I did do like the I did ketamine at Cedars Sinai. You did the academy where you sit there with the IV? Yeah, I did that. For what? I did for just like trying to trying to get a better sense of what was going on.

In the world, in your life? In the world and life. It was like what I was talking about earlier. That is the controlled trip in a not fun environment. Yeah, so like you're in an office and they lie you down in an easy chair and you get noise canceling headphones or I listen to music. Oh, they let you listen to music? Yeah, I listen to Amahoy, this like amazing...

Ethiopian pianist. Oh, yeah. The woman? Yeah. You have that. I have that record. It's great. It's beautiful. And I find it very meditative. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good record, yeah. So listen to that. And it was obviously controlled. It was like a Monday at like 1130. Yeah.

And it's a very weird time to go do that kind of thing. But does it just blow your mind? Yeah, you go like you're lying there and it's an IV. And then within 10 minutes, you start to like trip. And I was never interested in ketamine. People use it like recreationally. I was never interested in it. Yeah. But this very controlled trip, all of a sudden in 10 minutes, you start to like...

like, did you do acid and stuff before you got sober? And like, you know that it happens and then like they control it out. And by the end of the hour, you're kind of like coming back up to reality. And then, but do you disassociate? Do you like what goes on in your mind? What, what did you learn? Um,

I learned, I had, it's like, it's again, it's like a shorthand to whatever is going on. That's what I found about those psychedelics where it's just like, it's like, come on, man, let's fucking talk about this. Yeah. You know what I mean? Oh, sure. And it, and it jumps you right in there. So an elf pops up. Yeah. And says, dude. It's, it's, and it's, it's feral. It's Will Ferrell as the elf. Yeah. And.

It's Krumholtz is the elf. Oh, that's better. Yeah. That's probably closer. It's probably Krumholtz coming into me from like the Santa Claus. Anyway, so. Krumholtz is like, he is the Jew on all of our shoulders. We all have a Krumholtz on our shoulder going, what are you doing? Yeah. Yeah.

just do it. So what are you doing? Just do it. So we, um, anyway, but it does, it kind of really takes you right inside of it. Um, and then pops you out, but I did it once and it was a good experience. And then I did it again and I was running late and I was trying to get to my therapist after that. Like I was going to see a therapist to process whatever we had just gone, whatever I just gone through. Yeah.

And but I get out on a third street and I'm like running late and I'm still like I'm like I got I'm getting to an Uber and I'm my flip flop in my feet around because I'm still on drugs. Yeah. And it was not I was like, this is not the right thing. This is not how this should be done. Yeah. And that was it. And I was like, I'm done with that. But so now the ayahuasca thing. Now, this is sort of a bougie. Yeah.

You know, a group, you know, you go with... It is, it can be. You do it with your wife? I did it... I'll leave her out of it, but I... But yeah, so we... I did it in a very... Again, like, there's the very, very bougie version of it where it's like some white shaman and... Yeah. You know... The guy who used to be a barista. Yeah, exactly. There's that version of it, and there are other versions of it that are much... I think much more...

driven by people who are much more directly connected to the plant and to the experience of it in like, you know, central and South America. Um, and so it was a very intentional kind of group. And it was a really interesting, weird group where there are those people who are like,

this weird joke of a person, but then also some fucking, also people who have experienced incredible trauma that they're trying to process and, and being all together for a very intense experience. But then, and the unpleasant parts are also part of the, you know, it's that thing when you do those kinds of experience where you're like, Oh, it's all of it. Right. It's like, you know, vulnerability of puking and shitting yourself. It's like the puking and shitting is there. It's a little bit. And,

But it's also just like people like really dealing with some fucking demons, you know? Yeah. And it's a very intense, but ultimately very, you know, complete experience. And was that beneficial? Yeah.

Just like real, like I was like, huh? Like, yeah, just sort of big things. Like you go in thinking you're going to be like, I'm going to talk, I'm going to think about, you know, my relationship with my son or my marriage or whatever. And then something sort of, at least in all these experiences, usually isn't that direct thing. It's like, oh, just a much deeper thought about like masculinity or how I connect right now. I was like, man, I can't separate.

toxic for masculinity. Yeah. But how do, how can one be a man right now that feels true to being like a man, but also with acknowledgement of where we are as a society? Sure. So it was like stuff like that where I'm like, that's cool. That's an interesting thing to sort of really grapple with in a way that I've never thought about. I tried to do a joke about that. I think all men are on the

the spectrum of toxicity that it's, it's a broad spectrum. It starts like insensitive to murder. Yes. But at the, at best it's insensitive. At best. Yes. So it was, and I was just like, you know, anyway, so I'm not a proponent one way or the other of it, but I found it. I've enjoyed, I've enjoyed it. And it found it very,

I just feel like it's a shorthand to get to some deeper shit. Yeah. I think the last time I saw you was at the art out, the gallery opening of your wife's installation and work. That was great. Thank you. She did a great job. Yeah. Yeah. She's incredibly talented. She's a massive fan of yours. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm glad I went.

Yeah. Yeah. She is very funny. You're the, you're truly the one comic who, so I think she started listening to your podcast very early on when she was trying to figure out what she wanted to do. And she said that like your podcast gave her insight into the idea of, um, that you could fail along the way to success. Like that you're so many of the conversations you had, but not about you particularly, but mainly you. Yeah.

No, but it was really as she was trying to figure out what she wanted to do, and it was really enlightening for her. And so your conversations really propelled her towards doing what she does now. Yeah. In a lot of ways, which is like landscape design and large-scale botanical installation. And what you saw was like a visual art sort of. Well, she had the installation. Yes. The mound. Yeah, the mound. And then she had a lot of other wall pieces. Yes, yes.

Which I thought were very good because I like, you know, I studied photography. I studied the history of photography and some of this stuff. I'm always very taken with artists with have a fairly specific vision. And that is their mode of expression. So if the artist is good and has done their work, you're

you're looking at fully realized expressions of themselves that have their own poetics to them. And, and I thought she was, it was all very good. Yeah. And, and I liked it. I like going to art shows where I'm like, all right, this is, I'm in the hands of a professional here. That's great. This is like, this is how. So there's nothing worse than going to an art show and you're like, this is, what is, yeah. Like this doesn't seem fully realized. No. Is really what it comes down to. Is that either through, uh,

or, or skill or whatever that they're, they're not necessarily a laziness to it, but they didn't have complete control of their thing. Totally. Totally. But she does. Yeah. I, well, she'll be happy to hear that. And also, but I, ironically, that was her first show of that, of that medium. That was the first time she had done it and is now expanding what that is. Well,

Well, there's like, I don't know what they're called. They used to call them pictographs. What's the, where you lay things on paper and expose it? Yeah, I think pictographs are lumens. It's like expired film paper, and she takes like plant material and then lays them out in the sun and light and captures the- Figure it out. It was early, it was also early botanical how they gathered plants.

botanics like back to document. Yeah, to document like Darwin era. She's playing on that too. Yeah. But there's so much like sort of experimentation and chemical sort of control that has to happen with photographic processes. Totally. Like, you know, because you're dealing with light. Yeah. You're dealing with the photosensitive paper. Then you're dealing with chemicals. And that whole balance, you know, pushed me right out of that form. Yeah.

Too much crap. But you couldn't fucking bullshit your way through it. No, no, you can't. Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, what picture are you using? The stuff that's in the thing. The stuff that's there. It's in the tray. Let me tell you what the problem with these rooms is, though. Yeah, I just realized, like, I loved photography. I like taking pictures. But to really have a...

control over it you really have to know you know light and and chemicals so you're but your obsessiveness didn't play didn't compliment that no because my obsessiveness is not of the nerd quality right it's none of the useful quality no it's just sort of like I could have done this if I did if I'd only done that but this is too much I'm gonna fuck this up there's too much to know like how can I even think that this is good yeah I didn't know that part

Yeah. So you're like, this is, I wish I had. Yeah. No, no. Because there is that thing where you, I'm sure you've interviewed a million of those like obsessive people who put it into their art and make it. Oh my God. Like Wes Anderson. Yeah. What is that? Yeah.

It's almost to the point where it's too much. Yeah, gorgeous OCD. Yeah. Absolutely flawlessly beautiful OCD. Yeah, and sometimes you just sort of look like, you know, I think he should be doing still photos. Sure. Right. But then you got to fix them and you got to do that. But she also does this, she's doing this thing this summer in Madison Square Park. She took over a couple of the lawns and has designed like these outdoor installations on the lawns in Madison Square Park all summer. Yeah.

I know people hear that, though. They're thinking, does she do topiary? No, it's not. It's different. No, it's a different thing. It's a meditation garden, like a labyrinth. Yeah. And then a children's garden with, like, some stages. And we're going to do some, like...

live reading stuff for kids and stuff in there. But I sat there at the Mediterranean. I was just in New York. I sat in her garden, you know, because I was there for a couple days and sat and just watched everybody walk through it. It was so gratifying in New York to watch like 50 different kinds of people walk through this one thing and experience it differently. It was really beautiful. I love New York for that reason. I once read a book that changed my life and no one can find the book and I know it exists. It was really about

the original concept of,

for central park that before Olmstead got his stupid fucking hands on it. Well, I don't know how far back it goes, but when they first started to build those, the city, they realized that, you know, in order for it to function for humans, you needed, you know, to, uh, uh, uh, sort of balance out green space like that, that countryside was a necessity. Yes. So this thing has to be of scope and of density. And,

And mystery enough to provide the wild landscape. Yeah. But the idea that they would have enough vision to be like, we think it could get this big. So we need to make the park, think about it on this scale, that eventually this whole island will be covered. Right.

Right. Well, I don't know if they knew that, but they were very concerned with that. It was essential to human beings to have a place that they could be in the wilderness. Yes. Totally. And I just thought that was so genius. And it's true. And then, I mean, also the same guy did Prospect. Yeah, I was going to say Prospect Park also is an amazing thing to understand that about Brooklyn, too. Yeah. It's like they save your soul. Yeah.

That was the cool thing about Rome was that Via Borghese, that massive park was like really beautiful, like calming place to get inside. It works. You need it. Like right when you walk into Central Park, two minutes in, you're like, you're out of it. You take a deep. Isn't that wild though? It's really, I was there too.

And it really, you need it. I just went to Sherman Oaks. You went to the gallery in Sherman Oaks. No, my girlfriend's out in Sherman Oaks and there's this huge park that is primarily flat, but they've got like a couple of soccer fields, baseball, you know, workout stuff. Is it Balboa or no? It's one of, it's anyway. Is it called the Grotto maybe? No, the Grotto is a different kind of park. Oh, okay.

I don't know what it is, but like even that functions. Yeah. There's like there's a purpose to it. You need it. And L.A. is unfortunately you've got Griffith Park, which is an amazing resource, but you miss the central gathering park. There's no central gathering here. It doesn't work. It's a failure in design. It's a failure in design.

Yeah. And you can do Runyon and see that whole thing. Oh, I love to go to Runyon. I go to Runyon. Do you? No, but it's funny. Runyon is the first stop when you move to LA or come to LA and it's just filled with people with so many demons. Oh, yeah. Just like the most... Yeah, a lot of dreams hiking up that trail. Yeah, a lot of... So many eating disorders. Yeah.

hiking up and down that hill of all types of all types and frequencies yeah I was there recently and I hadn't been there in years and I'm like yeah this is it I could yeah that was the yeah yeah you go to Runyon and you go to the Gelson's on Franklin right right yeah it's a it's like a block where you can walk yeah

Two blocks. Oh, well, there's Runyon and then there's like the, you know, Canyon, the Bronson. Yeah. The Bronson, I did for many years. I did that hike for many, many years. Like the Bat Cave area. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. Out here, you got this brand library. It's the best. Yeah, you got to do it. I'm telling you, you got to do a bit about hiking or something like that. I do do a bit about it. How was the taping? Good. Great. Yeah, that closer was good. Yeah. You saw it? I saw that. I heard you talk about it. I've seen the close. I saw it at some point. With the Taylor Swift? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really great. We had to buy the song.

Oh, that costs a lot of money. I bet. Yeah. But she could have charged you more. I bet. I bet she could have. Yeah. I don't think I didn't text Jack Antonoff. Hey, buddy. Hey, bud. Quick question. Got this bit. And I don't know if it helped, but it was fine. I thought the taping went great. Have you gotten used to doing it now where you're not unbelievably nervous and panicky while doing it or leading up to it?

What was interesting about this one is the last couple, because I don't want to leave too much to cut. Like, I really need it to be as close to the time that I'm allotted as possible because I don't want to be. Yeah, you don't want to be editing down in the post. It sucks. You built it for a reason. So, like, I worked this shit because, you know, I had to take a break from the tour. I mean, I've been working this shit for over a year and a half. Yeah. And, you know, I kept it kind of fluid and stuff was coming in.

you know, even days before. Right. You're like, this is fun and feels good. Yeah. Little beats. Yeah. But by the time I got to the show, like I knew the material was solid, but you know, then it just becomes things. I asked myself, it's like, well, you're gonna have to pace up a little and you're going to have to shift your, your, your pausing because you know, this, we got to get this all in and, and don't, I just felt totally confident with all that shit. I was a little nervous about my shirt. That's always the concern with you for me.

I'm always worried about the shirt. What's Mark going to wear that he's going to regret? I have a whole history of clothing. Yeah. No jacket? Shirt? No jacket? Just shirt? No, I locked in on the outfit early. Great. And I wore the fuck out of it. Great. I got to tell you, though, dude, the look of this thing, because I go into these things thinking, like, you can't reinvent these things. Sure. As a guy on stage telling jokes. Yeah. But my production designer was a genius. Really? That's great. He's a genius.

And like he had this concept. The reason I did it at the Bam Harvey. Have you been there? This is different than Bam. That's the big one. Yeah. There's a smaller one. Oh. It's about 800. Oh, okay. And it's an old vaudeville theater. Oh, cool. That they didn't restore it. They've kind of preserved it in its decay. Oh, great. And I just, when I saw it, I'm like. This is it. The back wall. The literal wall of the theater looked like a Rothko painting. And I'm like, this whole thing has got to be about that wall. Yes. Yes.

And my production designer locked in and he had this concept based on Katsuki, you know, the Japanese art of repairing ceramics with gold. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, cool. And he just said that. He said, do you know what Katsuki is? I'm like, no, but just go do whatever you think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the thing looks stunning. Great. And the performance was, I think, pretty solid. Great. And we could cut between both shows and you didn't see my fat.

That most importantly. Most importantly. Most importantly, you didn't see my fat. You know what I think about still? Because I think about you talking about your grandmother. I'm sorry. What I think about is you talking about your mother eating whipped cream. Yeah. Cool whip. Oh, you cool whip. Yeah, even better. So when I'm like, I need my little sweets. I need my little taste. Yeah. A little shot of whipped cream really gets me through. And almost every time I do, I think about your mom. Yeah.

I'll tell her. Please do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A low-fat, low-sugar way to get a little hit. A little hit. Talk about a little dopamine hit. It's fun. It's so fun. Do you go the... You do that? I don't... No, I have a separate tank for that that I just hit by the bed.

Not ketamine, though. Just nitrous. No, no, no. I got Kanye's dentist on board, so now I just... How are your folks? They're good. They're, you know, they're older. They're getting older. But they're good. They're like 84 and 82. That's where my parents are. 86 and 84? 82. 82, 83. I mean, it's, you know, the bummer for them is like people keep dying.

Yeah. Everybody dies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Santa dies. Oh, my God. Santa died. Yeah, well, that's the thing. We're all trying to stave off. Do you exercise? I do, but I took a much longer break than I wanted to as I cover my belly with my jacket. I started doing, I've been doing, I needed to get myself to do it again. So I did, I started doing like orange theory exercises.

which is like group workout circuit training. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I needed to be in public with other people and be held accountable to myself. And it worked? It was working much better because if I have a trainer, I'll eventually bully them out of pushing me too hard. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then I started doing this class, and you can see everybody's scores, like heart rates and calories, so you can be competitive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, that helped for like two weeks. I was working out pretty hard. Yeah.

How long ago was that? That was like six months ago. I got this whoop watch, so I compete against myself. Oh, good. But I'm kind of compulsive probably more than I admit. And I had this moment on Twitter.

I don't know what this was or where it came from. It's called X, just be respectful. Oh, yeah, X. So someone tweets like this piece. I don't know where she got it. I'm a Marin fan. This is weird and random, but I've heard so many reasonably very attractive 20-something women say he's hot or ooh, I'd go with him. These are women who usually don't like older guys. I'm straight, but I can usually see why certain men are attractive to women. The first time I heard it was like,

The first time I heard it, I was like, what the fuck? Who, Mark? Really? Then I heard it again and again. I just can't see it with Mark. He seems mostly like an aging, grumpy, self-obsessed, neurotic, scruffy dude who is oftentimes negative with other people. He almost copies the hipster lifestyle at times. And his workout routine consists of trying to jog a little now and then.

That's what bothered me. Sure. That last line? Yeah. Like, you know, I'm like, wait, you know, I work out. Yes. The rest of it is fair. It's fair. Frankly fair. And also, as he explains it, you're like, of course women would be into that kind of person. That grumpy guy. But his positives are he's funny, a celebrity, B or C list. Okay. In parentheses. Mark, you are squarely a B list celebrity. Yeah, I know. And has some charisma. Some. Some. Yeah. Yeah.

Other than that, I just don't see it. Do you feel like, is it that you're not getting credit for working out? That's what bothered me about the whole thing. It's like all the other stuff I find. Fair enough. Don't take that away from me. Don't take away. I'm very much an exercise person. Do you jog every once in a while? Today?

Really? Do you jog in public? Do you jog out in the world? It's not good for your knees and shit. I drive on a treadmill. Yeah. I don't like also publicly working out like that. I don't want to be. I do a very hard hike up there. Yeah, a hike I'll do any day. Yeah. But jogging in streets is like my worst nightmare. I tried a new thing on the treadmill today because my trainer told me to. What? The sprinting and then sprinting for a minute and getting it down to zero. I never did that before. I usually do four miles, half walk, half run up inclines. Yeah.

And today I did a new thing. How'd it feel? It felt good, but like, you know, I get it in my head that like I need to go an hour and I need to do four miles. So you're not obsessive at all. There's no like weird rules that you've created, no systems in place that have to be met or else it's a failure. There's nothing like that. I'm having a hard time knowing that I turned the rice off before we came in here. Yet 10 minutes later, I wasn't able to fluff it. And now it's just going to sit there. And it's not going to be fluffed. It's not going to be fluffed. I mean, I'll probably get through it. This is...

You'll slowly make your way through. So I told you, the medicine's really working for me. Yeah, I can tell. I can tell. So what are you doing with your talent? Like, what's going on with Big Mouth? It's done? Big Mouth season eight is done. And that's it?

With that show for right now, yeah. That's a long run, dude. That's a long run. We'll be the longest running scripted series on Netflix. Wow. Yeah. Do they know? They don't know. Yeah. We haven't told them. We're going to tell them, though. We'll tell them. Yeah, we did like 80 of those and 20 human resources, the spinoff, and then...

So it's over. I mean, the funny thing with animation is it's like we finished a year ago and now it's coming out this week. So like it's this weird distance that you have from it. Yeah. And yeah, I'm very happy. I'm so happy about it. It was the greatest one. Probably like the best creative, one of the best creative things I could have ever had.

hope for, which is I made it with my childhood friend with a lot of my friends. Yeah. And now people have a lot of tattoos. And now people have so many fucking tattoos of it. And that to me is one of the bigger sign of that is it's like my Rogan tattoo on my back. Yeah.

Seth. Yeah, Seth Rogen. Seth Rogen's face on your back. Yeah, I have a huge, it's across my whole back because we're friends. Yeah. Because I love Knocked Up. Yeah, you got to do it. You did it when you were in high school. So I, but yeah, I'm so proud of it. It's done. We're doing a new show that will come out like next year. Animated? Animated. For Netflix? Yeah, same team.

uh, called mating season about, uh, animals dating and fucking in the woods, you know? Oh yeah, sure. That's a never ending, uh, uh, well, yeah. Versus puberty, which is, you know, a specific time. Yeah. Uh, but a continuation, a lot of ways of kind of this stuff that we did. Do the animals have dating apps? Uh, they,

do we have a, we have a thing for it. Yes, we have a, we have a thing. Keep it up to date with what's going on. Yeah. And it's, I mean, it's very fun in the animal stuff of like, all right, what is the, what is the human thing that, how do we translate to the animal world in the way that like, you know, the Flintstones was fun. Like, you know what I mean? That kind of thing. Yeah, sure. And so we're doing that. That's the final season comes out.

May 23rd. And then I've been producing this other show called Adults on FX. Like 20-somethings in New York. Is that on? It's about to be on. It comes out on the 28th on FX and then Hulu. What's the tagline on that? Adults is like, you know, it's like if the...

If you had like, you know, Sex and the City are friends. Yeah. They're in like living in the West Village. Yeah. And then the girls and girls were like living in Brooklyn. Right. Now that period of time in your early 20s, these kids are living in like deep Queens. Yeah.

at one of their friends, one of their kids' parents' house. In Forest Hills? Yeah, in like Flushing. Yeah, Flushing. Flushing. Yeah. And Bayside area. An area that's not going to get gentrified, but it's where they could all live. I lived in Astoria for years, and that's barely gotten gentrified. Really? You think? Astoria, I feel like, has come up a lot. Yeah, I don't know. I guess I haven't been there. Yeah.

But when I was there, it was like there was never even a threat of it being gentrified. No, well, and at that point, it's probably the most international, like the most languages spoken in the world. The best. It was just the best. I used to get off that train at 30th Avenue, the N train. And, you know, after doing comedy, and it's like 2.30 in the morning, there were entire families shopping for vegetables. Are there no rules? No. No. So it's...

So the show is like, and it's really about kind of Gen Z, those kids, but it's really about like codependent group of friends living in a house together trying to figure out how to be people. In that kind of grand tradition of that kind of show. So how are you tapped into this generation? Are the writers 20, 22? No, I wrote it. Yeah, the writers came to me like literally Ben Cronengold and Rebecca Shaw. They came to me. They're a couple. They've been together since college.

They came to me like... Ben who? Ben Cronengold. Okay. And Rebecca Shaw there. They were Fallon writers when I met them. Yeah. They were at the... When I met them was five years ago. It was like my first emails were them with like November 2020. Yeah. When Melanie was just running around New York on cocaine. Yeah, yeah. And I got this call from them and we just started talking about their show. And I was like, they just had such a clear vision for it. They're fucking funny, great writers. Yeah.

And it was like, yeah, that sounds like a show. And so I've just been helping them. You know, we helped pitch it and then develop it at FX. And then I directed the finale of it and just helped them throughout the process. So you've got a season in the can? Season in the can. That comes out, yeah, the 28th. On FX. FX and then on FX for Hulu the next, the whole season drops on FX for Hulu. How much directing are you doing?

I'm starting to direct a little bit. I directed on History of the World, and then I directed the finale of this and starting to do that more. You like it? I like it. I love, you know, when you're producing, when you're writing and producing, it's like you kind of are doing a massive portion of that job. So you're like, I guess, because I was just like, I don't like being there at call, and I don't like going on tech scouts. Yeah, yeah. The stuff that directors and crew and people have to do. But I was like, maybe if I can move through that, I could actually...

you know, experience something new. But do you want to do a movie? Yeah, I think like, but it's like, I love it, but I also, I love doing all of it. I thought you directed this one that I forced myself to watch and then when I found out you didn't direct it, I'm like, why did I watch it?

Another another rousing, another wonderful pull quote from Marin. Just for your listeners who maybe are considering going to the movie, it's much better than Marin is giving it credit for. No, I will say that it was well shot and it's all there. And again, another perfect pull quote. It's well shot and it's all there.

Go to the theater to see I Don't Understand You, June 6th, Marc Maron. It just took me a minute to lock in. It's totally, I agree. That is, it's really interesting. It's an interesting experiment in playing with audience expectation. Yeah, totally. And in this moment in time, it's harder to get people to lock in if something doesn't exactly make sense to them right at first. Yeah, the whole you're dead thing.

Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, there's definitely funny things in there. And I think that, you know, because of my expectations, when I look back on it, it's funnier than it was when I was watching it. Again, could we use that one too? Yeah.

I don't know your fans well, but can someone just make a – can one of your fans – can someone make this – the pull quotes for all of these quotes for the movie that I can put out on social? When I look back at it. It was just like all of them. Or a trailer where it's all – you see the trailer and it always has this like – instead of it being like the Daily Beast, it's being like dementedly funny. It's just all –

all of Marin's quotes from the movie. I would, I will put that out when it comes. Okay. I don't know if I have those kind of fans, but maybe, maybe a couple. Well, I think that's a young fan game. Calling all you. Yeah. Fuckers. Yeah. You young nerds. Yeah. You want to help out in this area. When did you, can I ask, when did you pull out WTF? My, my,

My chupacabra was in the intro for your show for a long time. WTF. Yeah, WTF. Well, we look back today, like you were on one of the, the full episode we did was like 112 episodes.

like real early. And then there's like two in-studio Chupacabras and one live one that my buddy Brendan still laughs about. We talked about it today. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can't do that character anymore, can you? No, not really. No, it's gone. But what a run we have. Oh, it's great. So are you going to try stand-up again? Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to give it a shot. I'm going to...

I'm going to try. I'm finally going to try. That bit you did about your mother, like taking compliments from your mother, kills me. Thank you. It's so funny. Yeah. Is that how you feel with your mom? What was the setup again? It's just how we're so deeply impatient with our moms. No shorter fuse with anyone in the world. That's right. No shorter fuse. Yeah. My mom was like, I'm going to forward you an article about the Art Deco movement.

Why would you do that, mom? You know Art Deco is my least favorite architectural movement. It's just that, like, I think that's helpful in the sort of assessing rage thing. Yes, exactly.

That literally that that tone of, you know, at any age, at some age, you would hope it would stop. But that sensitivity and reactiveness to your mother that is infantile, but still exist in your old man body. It's crazy. It's crazy. It doesn't go away. And I think it's and it's more extreme with mothers than fathers. I think I think there's just we don't get hit emotional, emotional hit.

You know what I mean? Fathers are scary. Yeah. Fathers are scary. And also I can work your mom. Yes. But you're just so emotionally intertwined with her in a way that is, it hits some deep, like kind of core thing that makes you explode. Yeah. And, but there's also the fight in this is, you know, about when you have kids that there's also the point where you're trying to get out from that.

And I think that tone comes from like, I just want to be my own person. Yes. Yes. And if I can tell you anything as a father. Please. Yeah. Is that, because I was told is like your mother and your parents did not allow you to separate and be yourself. Sure. And that's something they have to do consciously. Yes. That you have to let them fail or have their own sense of being start to evolve. Yeah.

Because if you get in the way of that, then you have a lifetime of like, Mom! Totally. I mean, I just had my parents. I was on Colbert in New York. And I was like, it was around my dad's birthday. So I was like, why don't you guys come to Colbert and then we'll go out to dinner. And I went and they were backstage with me in the green room. Again, talk about this. Like, why didn't I...

Why didn't I just be like, watch the show and then we'll meet up. So they're in my green room and I'm doing the pre-interview with the producer and my mom starts to like weigh in on like, and I, and I became again, like a six year old child. Like, you know, before I'm about to go on national television in a pink suit, you

You know what I mean? I'm just, and I was like, but I, and I, I did that to myself. She's just, you know what I mean? I never let anyone come. I, I don't know why I did. I, I'm better at it now because I don't, I, like, I honestly, I don't really care, but it used to be,

Like, if you'd let them watch you, you know, in real time, like, you're going to be reacting to that. Of course. It's going to be hanging over you. And you have so much other stuff connected and attached to those people. My least favorite shows are hometown shows oftentimes. Like, they're the least, I don't, you know what I mean? Because you're just, you can start to see, you can feel people who you know thinking about you and you. Well, yeah, what you think they're thinking. I mean, it's like they're usually kind of.

You know, whatever they say afterwards, they're in awe of it. I mean, you know, you're doing it. Yes. You know, so even if they're like, nice shirt, dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What? What about the buttons? It's not because I put on weight. It's just simply the thickness of the fabric. It's a Western shirt that I got from a special place. This guy's a wonderful guy.

I lived in a town in Wyoming. As you look at the computer, I'll make this long. I'm not looking at the computer. I'm watching the levels because we're yelling. Go ahead. I lived in this little town in Dubois, Wyoming. You did? Yeah, for a couple summers. And it was a cool little kind of dude ranch, real western town. It's like 80 miles to Jackson. The family went there? No, no. Family friends had a place there and I was like, can I go work for you? And they were like, no, go work at the...

They were a ranch. It was like, be a ranch hand. They're like, you won't be good at this. Where's that TV show? I don't know. Here it is. Let's do it. Here we go. This is the soft pitch, Mark. But I lived in this town and worked at this restaurant, and...

Across the street was this old general store, Welty's, and it was like owned by the old family who's like owned this town. The Welty's? The Welty's who were the wealthy. Yeah. And they, but it was closed. I don't know, the father died in like, say, 70s or 80s. Yeah. And it was closed for 30 years, except they would open it like one, at that time, like one or two days later.

uh, like a year. Yeah. And you'd walk in and it was all the original, like Wrangler Lee seventies in its original, all the like, could you buy it or was it a museum? So I had all these, but seventies pants are too tight. Yeah. Maybe those wouldn't fall down your ass. No. They just, they'd stop at some point. Yeah. I can't get them to not fall down my ass. I don't, I just don't like them up over my waist. Right.

What did my bank do? So, all right. So where's the story? It's you and black youth. Yeah, it is. People always wonder like they, like it is a style, but it's not intentional. Yeah. You're like, I'm just always pulling up my pants that, you know, fine arts made that documentary about me. And I'm like, holy shit, dude, my pants are falling down this entire fucking show for an hour and a half of this documentary. Are you conscious of it while it's happening? Sure. I've just, I'm always pulling them up. And, and, and, but there's at some point,

Like, I bend over to get something out of the oven. He's shooting it. My entire ass is out. And I'm like, dude, my entire ass is out. He's like, well, we can pixelate. I'm like, no, they're waiting for it. This is the payoff. Your literal, not underwear, your literal ass. Yeah, yeah. Oh, you got to go. No, but we've been working towards this the whole time. Now I'll tune in. Now I'll tune in to watch it. How much stand-up are you doing? I'm doing it when I can. I'm like, you know, it's just...

I don't know. My life is a little... The young kids don't make it easy. But if I could, in an ideal world, I would be, like, doing it, like, two or three times a week. Yeah, yeah. That's the way to go. And I... But when I do... Generally, I try to, like, stack them if I can. I finally went to New York and went and did the cellar and the village underground. And that little, like, run is very nice. And how'd you go for it? You good? It was so fun. I barely ever performed, like...

Because when I was in New York, when I'm in New York, I'm like doing some of the show. I'm not like running spots. And it's it was so fun. Yeah, because you can do like nine rooms in one block. Yeah. And there and the crowds are fun. And it's a little like it's it's just not as tight. It feels a little hotter. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, New York crowds are a little hotter. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I'm used to, like, New York theater crowds, which are fun, but, like... Different, older. So I'm doing it... I'm trying to figure out, like, what it is right now where I'm, like, am I working towards, like, a special for an hour? Or am I... I'm doing a bunch of stuff this summer, some dates and...

Like Canada. I'm doing a couple things with like Mulaney and Birbiglia and... Oh my God, what is that? You mean just stand-up? We're doing like some festivals in Canada. As a three... Four. It's like Mulaney's show and we're all doing spots on it. Oh, yeah. And we're doing some of those.

I don't know if that's the right framing of it, but that's how it feels to me. Yeah. Mulaney show, you and Mike. Yeah, yeah. Me and Mike and Fred popping on. Armisen? Yeah. Oh, interesting. Yeah, so we're doing a few of those. And so I'm just sort of always building towards whatever the next assignment is. Oh, okay. You know what I mean? So I'm like, and maybe out of that, I'll start to be like, okay, this now feels like something I could go do.

tour with more on my own you just build it out so I'm still stuck on like how we're how come we're not on the show you know well will that feeling ever end no no I mean if you want to drop in we're gonna be in Halifax so we're gonna be if you want to honestly if you're in Halifax and want to drop in we would I'm sure love to have you all right well next time you know we had a dinner without you I know I heard

And it was fairly productive. Yeah. I really had this moment where I was like, should we talk? Have you ever just openly talked shit on the air about people that you talk about in private? Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes I'll talk to them and I'll dance around it, but it becomes apparent. Yes. Yeah. That's a joy to listen to. Yeah, I did it with, I was talking to Liza Traeger. Uh-huh.

And, you know, Birbiglia came up. And he's always challenging for me. Yes. Yes. I mean, I don't say that yes. Yeah. And that you, no, you're saying for me. Yes. Not for you. Correct. For you, he's just great. Yeah. Fine. We went to college together. We've known him for my whole life. That's fine. So, doesn't explain anything. But, uh...

No, but we, you know, I told, you know, and I've talked about this with Mike. Sure. And we had, and we left it in, you know, a lot of times my producers are like, that's not necessary. But we left it in because it was sort of getting Liza to a certain point. Because I said it.

You know, and it was, and it's not anything that him and I haven't gone through. My producer's like, you should give him a heads up. Uh-huh. So, like, he, you know, he's not blindsided. Right. Sure, sure. But I did do it. I said, hey, just so you hear it from me and not someone else, I was talking with Liza Trager on my show, and you came up, and I was honest about how I perceived you throughout the years. I don't think it will be surprising to you, but also wanted to be upfront about it. Uh-huh. More grist for our mill when we talk, I guess. Yes. And then immediately I get, can I call you? Mm-hmm.

He wants no paper trail of words said. Well, no, then I've got to be like, ah, fuck, now I've got to fucking own it and talk to him about it. But then does it help to talk through it versus a text? Yeah, because so much of what I do is like, you know. It's verbally, it's all tone. But it's also just this emotional dumb reaction. And immediately after I say it, when it becomes real, I'm like, god damn it, now I've got to. Sure. You know, like, ah, fuck, I don't, it's not even, why did I even do it?

But he said, look, you know, it's fine. And, you know, we talked about it. And he's like, but I mean, I'm going to come on because he's going to come on to promote a special. Yeah. And he goes, I just, you know, I'd rather not do that for, you know, half hour. Have that conversation. Again. Yeah. You're like, but I got this OCD. So I'm kind of obsessive about this stuff. And I'm like, of course, of course. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You know, what? Yeah.

But like, I'm fine with him. I'm fine. I'm fine. And I can't even quite explain it to you. I, of course I could, you could. And then, and then one of us will text him afterwards. No, I mean, I, I, he's a good comic and you know, there's just a, you know, nothing's easy for me and I don't think it's easy for anybody else, but, but there is a sort of way that he kind of moves through his, his standup. And I know it's all very well crafted, but,

But, you know, for me, everything's very life or death. And I'm like, he's just kind of blobbing his way through it. Oh, you think so? I mean, I know he works so hard. I know. So hard. So hard. But I know, I understand the...

it's so interesting because I literally, you know, I met him when I was a freshman at Georgetown. He cast me in like a sketch show. Yeah. And so I've known him throughout my, and he immediately got out of college and like was on Letterman within the year. Yeah. So he has had continued success in a way that was like, wait, all this, all this is the dossier. Everything you said is me. Like, yeah, that's, well, that's,

I mean, what the fuck is that? Well, what about my happy childhood? We haven't even talked about my happy childhood, Mark. Well, you know, I give you a pass because I find you so entertaining. Thank you. And your happy childhood, I don't begrudge you. I just can't look at it anymore. Right, of course. Neither can I. You put it on Instagram. I know. I put it on Instagram constantly. I'm trying to mine it. Just this well-loved fucking Prince kid. And I'm like, God damn it. Yeah, of course. Of course. Trust me. I feel the same way. Yeah.

But yeah, but Mike, I know he works hard. I love him. And, you know, there, it's just, there's just this fundamental thing that, uh, it's fine. I can't. Well, the thing is with him and others who you've known for a long time, the people you came up with, you're just like, of course it's all of it. You need, there are these people who, if they stick around in your life, you know, like,

in various ways, like the guys I'm sure you came up with and the ones who stick around. You have complicated relationships with them. Yeah. And you can love them, respect them, and also be frustrated by them. Sure. Friends. Friends. Yeah, yeah. Friends who eventually kind of become family in some weird way. You know what I mean? We're just like, this is, you know. Well, that's good that you have that group because, like, see, like, whoever you're talking about I came up with, I don't have any friends.

There's no, like, I don't have a family, right? Right. So, like, I imagine you and Mulaney go out with the kids and the wives and that kind of stuff. Sure, sure. Yeah, and with Birbiglia, too. Sure. I have none of those people. I mean, the reality is we all see each other unbelievably rarely because of lives and stuff like that. I mean, that's what you're finding as you get older is you're like, oh, I don't see anybody ever. Oh, good. And that's the nice thing about doing stand-up is, like,

socializing is going... That's why, yeah, it's your whole social life. Yeah. Like when I go to those dinners with you guys, I'm like, wow, that's so nice that they include me. And then I realize, like, they just want me to talk shit about people. No! No, but it is, but it's like... Marin's a loose cannon. No, you want that. You want that loose cannon. No, but you don't... As opposed to, like, us being backstage talking and then one of us running up on stage to do a spot and then coming back or going to another spot, it's a condensed version of...

of what that could be at a, you know, in a green room. No, yeah, but it's not though. It's nice to have dinner with everybody. But it's hard to do that. But you know, this time we went to Craig's. You missed Craig's. How was I? And that would have been interesting. No, it's great. Yeah. As opposed to that horrible Italian restaurant. Yeah, I know.

Enough with the campy whatever reason we're there. Yeah. It's like Craig's is where we should be. Yes, of course. And it was fucking great. Everyone had good food. There's a couple of campy places in L.A. that I've now decided I'm like, no, this is not worth the fucking shtick. Yeah, exactly. You know, it's like, I don't care about that. Let's just go get a meal where we get the respect that we deserve. Yeah, that we demand. Yeah. Yeah.

And then you get to look at funny people or interesting people. I like to see funny people. The food's okay and they're happier there. Again, if they want to use that for their poll quote. Which one? The food's okay and you're happier there. Come to Craig's. Mark Maron. The food's pretty good. Yeah.

All right, buddy. Well, it was good talking to you. Did we do it? We did it. Yeah, we're good. Okay. Can I just talk about Israel and Palestine real quick before we get off? I'm out of tape. No, I'm kidding. I got no more data. I can't. The AT&T took off my zeros and ones. The reels are running out. Yeah, no, we're good. There you go. Again, that movie, I Don't Understand You, with all of my blurbs, comes out June 6th, and Big Mouth Season 8 is out on Netflix right now. Hang out for a minute, folks.

Hey, listen, you can go check out the time Nick Kroll and John Mulaney were on the show together. That was back in 2016 on episode 743. We had started talking like these guys. Yeah. We had seen these two guys at a bookstore at the Strand. Of course. And they were... With their own bags. Yes, they each had their own tote bag. Old Strand bags. The old Strand bags, which we used to say was, Strand is eight miles of books. And 12 miles of loneliness. Yeah. And...

And so we see, we go in there and we see these two guys buying their individual copies of Alan Alda's Never Have Your Dog Stuffed. Hardcover. Hardcover. Great book, by the way. Great book. I just talked to Mr. Alda. Yes, I know. Wonderful conversation. Amazing. He's such a real...

actor and artist. Yeah. In a way that we're not. And a curious guy. Yes. Like a sweet guy and like, yeah, thinker and he's like, he likes science. Yes. He hosted what, 13 years Scientific American. Yeah, he's very into making sure kids like science. Yeah. Can you imagine? Yeah. Can you imagine caring about that? That's so noble. I really respect that. That's why I don't have children because I don't care. Can you imagine pointing the stars out to them and lying and making up names of the stars? Yeah.

So we see these two guys buy their book, buy that book, and then we just immediately kind of become fascinated with them, follow them out of the Strand to like a diner or coffee shop. You're following them now. We are now following these two men. And we follow them. And then as they sit at a coffee shop and both start reading their copies –

of Alan Alda's book, Never Have Your Dog Stuff. Not talking too much, but clearly like conjoined twins. Yeah. And we just, they just became a focus point of guys that we've been interested in. Right. This was also the time of like, what was this, 2005? This was when a lot of people, like a lot of people through the New York Times had just heard about Jon Stewart or something. Right. It would be like, people get their news from Jen Daly. Yeah. And you'd be like, oh, you're the worst. Yeah.

That's available for free on all podcast platforms. To get every episode of WTF ad-free, sign up for WTF+. Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+. And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by Acast. This is me playing my new favorite guitar, a not-too-old Gibson SG, white one.

Boom or live, Smoky and La Fonda, cat angels everywhere.