Zimbabwe’s Fight for Responsible Mining: Lessons for Africa & China
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Hello and welcome back to this new episode of the China in Africa podcast. My name is Christian Geronima and I'm going to be your host for today's episode. Earlier this week, I had a conversation with the Zimbabwean Civil Society organization. We talked about the new initiative to engage with Chinese companies that are operating in green areas.

Transition Minerals in Africa. It was really interesting to have the perspective on how they chose a collaborative approach to talk with Chinese stakeholders in a way that they can improve their operation on the ground. The conversation was really interesting and allowed to see

see how Chinese companies have been changing over the years in a way they engage with civil societies and with communities in Africa when it comes to their mining operation. It was really interesting and a very informative conversation. Please take a listen.

I'm happy again to be here today for another conversation of the China in Africa. And today we're going to talk about a topic that I like a lot, mining, natural resources, Chinese investment in the mining industry. And we're going to talk about it in the angle that's really quite interesting today, because most of the time when we report about Chinese mining activities, especially with civil society in Africa, we tend to have those negative approach where there is a lot of reports accusing Chinese company do

this and doing that, being journalists, being civil society, it's always that sense of like Chinese are doing something bad. And today we are talking still about the angle from the angle of the civil society, but we are talking about something that's interesting that happened few weeks back on the sideline of the mining in Daba, where the Zimbabwean Environmental Law Association in collaboration with other organizations, they've launched a new program, the program called China-Africa Dialogue

on green minerals investment in green minerals for responsible investment short called CADRI it's like it's a framework that's going to allow civil society organization to engage with Chinese stakeholders to address different issues that we tend to cover around those Chinese presence in the critical minerals but I won't be going in depth about that I'm going to let my guest to talk about it he's going to give us a

deep understanding of what the initiative is about, my guest is from Zimbabwe. His name is Obert Bore. Obert, good afternoon to you. Thank you so much, Christian, and good afternoon to you and good afternoon to the listeners. So I'd like to introduce Obert. In short, Obert is from the ZELA. ZELA is the Zimbabwe Environmental Law Association and is a business and human rights program lead education.

at that organization. So, Obert, what can you tell us about the CADRI? What CADRI does? What's the aim of the CADRI? And even before going that further, can you tell us how did you get there? How did you get to put CADRI in place? In terms of a brief overview of this CADRI, China-Africa Dialogue on Green Murals for Responsible Investments, which we launched during the alternative mining endeavor, I think

In brief, this is an initiative that is launched by civil society organizations, obviously being led by Zela and our partners from different African countries and also from China organizations like Global Witness that have experts that work with, you know, Chinese companies and also Chinese policymakers. We thought of coming up with this initiative. And the major reason, I think I would categorize it into maybe three key reasons.

I think generally, as you have put it, Christian, that when people hear China, Africa, most of the time the perceptions are about, you know, China extracting resources from Africa and leaving a trail of social and environmental destruction. And a lot of times there is never a conversation about how best can we ensure that we collaborate. Yes, we know that China is a big, you know, trading partner for us. And also it's a big miner and exporter in the process of the critical minerals, for instance, the

green minerals from the continent. But how best do we ensure that there is both sides talk? In other words, African stakeholders and Chinese stakeholders are talking to each other. People might also be aware of the FOCAC, which is a forum on China and Africa cooperation, which is mainly government-to-government relations.

but there is very little room for civil society organizations from both sides to engage. So one of the key reasons and one of the aim of CADRI is to ensure that there is sharing of information and collaboration between African and Chinese CSOs so that they better understand the context in which investments in the green mineral sector are happening. A lot of African civil society actors

wish to hold Chinese companies accountable, but they do not know how to do that. They do not know how to engage to access information and even understanding Chinese law or Chinese government, you know, overseas investment regulations of what are the expectations of Chinese government for their companies when they go out to invest in Africa, for instance.

A lot of African civil society organizations and communities do not know this, which is why we thought this initiative is quite crucial for us to be able to build a network of African civil society, but also Chinese CSO organizations that do know

how Chinese companies operate, and also even their business culture. So the first reason is around access to information, building collaboration and relationship, so that if ever African civil society and communities want to engage, they are engaging from a position of knowledge, from a position of informed information.

So that's the first reason. Secondly, I think Kadri was also informed by the fact that a lot of the investments that we see on the African continent, again, in the critical mineral space coming from China and beyond China, of course, you also have other actors that are also coming in, EU, the US, etc. But it is very often easy for African civil society, at least to engage with Western countries.

investors to engage with companies themselves and even to, for instance, if ever there's need to access remedy or seek judicial access to remedy through engaging courts, it is quite easy

at least straightforward for Western investors. But I think the same cannot be said for China. So this CADRI becomes an important initiative for knowledge building for African stakeholders to understand what are some of the unique standards and guidelines and frameworks that enable them to be able to hold Chinese companies accountable. But again, this is related to access to information and knowledge building. And another

key reason that we are coming up with this initiative. We understand emerging frameworks like environmental, social governance, ESG. Also now there are talks about corporate sustainability, due diligence is one of the key fundamental international, you know, business standards that we are seeing from various angles and also regions. And for us, where we are coming from, who would want to see this cadre, you know, influencing corporate behavior and the

That is why we have also extended the call to say this is not just an initiative for African civil society and Chinese only, but even, you know, business associations, industry players and sectors, including institutions like Responsible Cobalt Initiative, the RCI, Chamber of Commerce from China, because these are the, you know, industries that set standards for their members. And the idea is if we have them on board,

It also allows us to be able to push and influence corporate behaviors, promoting transparency and accountability, which are some of the key, you know, thorn issues that African communities and civil society have when it comes to dealing with Chinese investments. So as a start, you know, when we launched this initiative, we launched it with the idea that we are building a network

a network that will allow African and Chinese civil society not only to engage, but also share information. And I think in future, we might also see, you know, things like African civil society organizations building also even the capacity of corporates to be able to do certain things. I think this is coming from the fact that at one point, Chinese embassies, they accept at least

from Zimbabwe, the countries that we have been working in, DRC, that one of the problems in African countries where Chinese companies operate is because, you know, the frameworks there are weak. We are sitting with legislation that was crafted during colonial times and also at a time when the investors therein were mostly from the West.

So we are sitting with legislation within policy, within government that is unable to respond to the key concerns of the day, which again, in the context of transition and green minerals, is about ensuring that the transition is just, equitable, and does not leave anyone behind. So broadly, that is where we are coming from.

And that is the idea of coming up with this cadre. And its objective, I think I would just quickly say, the first one is to identify key challenges and opportunities in transitional minerals, including governance, environmental sustainability aspects, economic equity. Then the second one is to enhance cooperation between African and Chinese CSOs to promote transparency and accountability in management of green minerals. And the third one is to develop actionable solutions to foster responsible investments

in the transitional mineral space. Lastly, is to strengthen cross-border partnerships between African and Chinese stakeholders. So broadly, the idea is collaboration. I think that is the key word in culture. That is the key word, collaboration and cooperation, because we feel, at least, and also from experience dealing with Chinese companies, we feel that it is better to go with organizations that come from the investor side. In other words, we're

where the investors are coming from, it's better to understand what is the expectations from their government as they go out to invest, because it's also about the perceptions that are being generated out there that China is a bad investor.

But for us, as Zela, as an organization, we are actually for investments. We are an organization that advocates for investments. But we advocate for investments that are responsible. And what are those investments that are responsible? They're investments that do, you know, respect the culture of people where the projects are. We're going to get to that. This is what I wanted to talk to you. You presented the cadre, you presented the background, how we got there and where we are going and what you expect to achieve. But on concrete terms,

On the ground, how do you see success happening? How do you envision the success of CADRE being implemented? When you say CADRE has been successful from a sustainable business point of view, how do you see that manifest with Chinese investment and the Corporationally Civil Society on the ground?

I think from where we sit, I would say two things that would determine, I think, the success of our cadre. One is to be able to expand the network of Chinese CSOs that become members of this network or this initiative. Why that is important is because, as I might have said, I think,

We have a lot of African civil society. Already we are operating in the same context. We understand the issues better from an African point of view. But the network needs to grow to have more Chinese CSOs that do assist African stakeholders to say, this is how you engage with a Chinese company. How you engage a Chinese state-owned company is different from how you would engage a Chinese private sector.

you know, private company that is investing in Africa because of the different, say, culture, the legal frameworks, also the involvement of Chinese in government. For instance, if it's an SOE, you would also know that the involvement of Chinese Communist Party in some of the SOEs in directing, you know, how the company operates, how it engages with communities, etc. So we have already seen that there are differences in how you engage a Chinese state on

company and a private sector company. So for us, I think what would determine the success is to be able to grow the network by having more Chinese CSOs. We already have a number that have joined. I think I mentioned, even though it's an international organization, which has Chinese CSOs,

stakeholders in it, like Global Witness, for instance. Then we also have an industry association that is also, you know, that we have also met and invited to join this initiative, responsible cobalt initiative, which really is a network of Chinese companies that are involved in the cobalt supply chain and also other companies that are part of the cobalt, but also in the copper and lithium supply chain. So for us, it's to have those actors come on board

That would determine the success. As a network, as an initiative, we are aware of challenges, I mean, to engage Chinese companies, you know, naturally because of, I think I might have mentioned that generally when you engage a private and a state-owned, it's quite different. But also because of the fact that the culture of doing business in China is different from the Western culture of doing business where you want to open to stakeholder engagement,

So for us, I think one of the key indicators that would measure the success of is to be able to influence one or two in the countries where we are working. So as a start, we are looking at countries, Zimbabwe, Zambia, DRC being some of the major countries.

to push for this cadre. So identifying Chinese companies operating in these countries that are able and willing to, you know, listen, to come to the table, to engage with communities. I must also say on the side, the Chamber of China of Commerce for Metals and Imports and Chemicals, which normally called the CCCMC or CCCMC, they launched what they

call a mediation and consultation mechanism for the mineral supply chain. And they are looking at potentially DRC, Indonesia, and Zimbabwe to pilot key

cases where communities in these three countries do have consents with Chinese companies that are members of the CCCMC. This is where we're coming from. So already there seems to be commitment by this industry association that has come up with this initiative, which we think it does resonate and align with what we are talking about, what

at least Qadri ought to achieve. So I think we already have some commitment and willingness from a few of our allies from China that already want us to be able to support addressing some of the concerns, transparency, you know, lack of community engagement. And also from our governments, I think you might also be aware of the

Africa Green Mineral Strategy that the AMDC, Africa Minerals Development Center, just launched. I think it's almost being finalized. The fourth pillar of that AMGS, Africa Green Mineral Strategy, does speak to environmental sustainability, even though the broad-up goal is to, you know,

green minerals. But again, it is underpinned on ensuring that the transition and creating an environment for African countries to move up the supply chains in terms of value creation. It respects environmental sustainability is quite a key component. So already,

Looking at that perspective from the regional, also looking at from the side of China, there are a lot of levers of support that we can rely on that can determine, I think, what then becomes the success of this cadre. So looking into cadre and looking into the cooperation with China, it's just something that just came up in my mind.

Some would say when they listen, they'd say why to do it with Chinese companies and not with other companies. You've mentioned the fact that other companies from other countries are much more easy to engage with, much more accessible, and Chinese company might be a bit difficult. Do you see any specificity when it comes to sustainability, mining sustainability that's

are related to Chinese companies that really send civil society organizations to say we want to engage Chinese companies in a way that the investment is much more different and much more sustainable for all of us involved.

So I think there are pockets of commitments, if you broadly look at the Chinese companies operating in the green mineral space in Africa, that could potentially say this is a good example that we can work on and also upscale and share the lessons to others.

I'll give an example of an emenda of the RCI, Responsible Cobalt Initiative, which we are also talking to. In fact, I'll give two. So one is Wayo Cobalt. Wayo Cobalt, as you can see, is a company involved in cobalt extraction, but also in lithium in Zimbabwe.

They are in DRC and Zimbabwe. This company, they've come up with some initiative around environmental social governance. Basically, it's ESG, environmental sustainability, as part of their business model. And they're looking at how they could potentially

address major concerns that communities have in the areas where they operate. So within Zimbabwe, they're mainly involved in lithium and they're already starting to do, you know, in community engagements with the communities that we work with as an organization to say, what are some of your concerns that you have with us and how can we address them? So it's already opening doors to engaging. And that is what we are banking on, that if a company is willing to engage with the communities, with the local leaders in the area,

That is a sign that we can build on a case for us to be able to push this business model to say sustainability goes beyond just, you know, investing in renewable, et cetera, but also how you interact with communities. I think a key issue about, you know, sustainability is ensuring that the stakeholders, including communities, who are within your area or sphere of operation, are happy with, you know, how you are, because it becomes a business risk for them if communities are not happy.

Allow me to interrupt you there and to make a quick follow-up on that question. Have you seen, because you've been following Chinese engagement in Zimbabwe for quite some time, have you seen a kind of change of trend from Chinese companies in a sense where for a long time there was this perception that they did not want to engage with civil society communities, civil society organizations, they were not willing to engage with communities? Have you now seen a change of trend where we see now there's much more openness and willingness to engage with communities?

Absolutely, yes. There's been a shift. I'll give an example again. I'll use that to demonstrate that shift. So the company by the name, I think, you know, Chinese name certificate for now. Yes. But essentially it's YAHWA. It's Y-A-H-A-W-A.

Y-A-C-H-U-A-N. Y-A-C-H-U-A-N. Y-A-C-H-U-A-N.

mining lithium in an area that used to be predominantly they used to be tin so in terms of mineralization so where you find tin tantalite you would also find lithium more like where you find cobalt you would find copper so it was already stranded you know

town because tin prices went down and there was no business. And the company that used to be, you know, mining tin, it also closed. So they came to, you know, reopen the mine and their focus is lithium. So this company, we have been engaging with them. So their joint venture name with the state is called Kamatav, K-M-A-T-A-V-I-E. So this company, they have already

issued a public notice requesting for support from local organizations within Zimbabwe to help them develop an ESG policy, right? So we reached out to them and say, we are an interested stakeholder as an organization. We work with communities in the area where you want to invest. We are willing to help you with developing this ESG policy that is also inclusive, ensuring that there's wide consultations available.

So already as an organization, we have developed a unit and the unit has experts that are trained and certified by GRI Global Reporting Initiative that can support institutions to come up with policies or to develop ESG systems. So this is a Chinese company that is

getting support from a local NGO to assist in developing an ESG policy. So two weeks ago, after we had just launched this cadre, again, we were meeting with them. And just last week, again, we had a meeting with their manager to see how best we can provide this. It's more like providing supports

to a Chinese company. And previously, this was unheard of. We also would be meeting a Chinese CEO for a big Chinese company to provide a service of something. We're saying we are an NGO that understands how you engage stakeholders and which stakeholders we need to engage and what you need to engage on, what issues they have to. So already, they are a company that is showing the shift in

Your question was around, are we seeing a difference in how? So I think that is an example of where we are seeing this going. Beyond Kamativi, the Wyo Cobalt company that I mentioned earlier on, they also have an ESG policy, which they developed. They are publishing their information. Their information in terms of the ESG sustainability reports are on an annual basis, including operations in Zimbabwe, because it's a subsidiary of many, many entities. But

it is at least disclosing information, which again, that is, addresses the transparency, lack of transparency and accountability to say information has been discussed. There's been a partners in how they operate, but at least these companies are disclosing, you know, their ESG reports, which is useful information for civil society. That is very important information, even for communities to understand, really. We can also, based on those sustainability reports, to say, can we really fact check

What you're saying you are doing, is this what is happening? Is this translating to community benefit on the ground? So I think that way it shows that there is a bit of some Chinese companies that are starting to warm up and change their behavior and want to engage, which is very positive.

What's prompted the change? Because for so long, me, myself being from the DRC, the company that you mentioned, Huayo Cobalt, yes, even in DRC, they've started to do the same thing in terms of ESG. They've been starting to hiring NGOs, local NGOs. They really insist on like, we want local NGOs with footprint on the ground, with experience working with local communities to help us engage with local communities. It was really interesting to see that happening. And when I see that in Zimbabwe, I realize it's a part of a

big trend that we see among big Chinese companies. I don't know what, if you have to speculate, I'm not sure that we might have the clear answer, but if you have to speculate, what do you think prompted that change? I wouldn't say that change of heart, but that change of approach on the ground. Do you think that it was the voice of complaint from local civil society? Or at some point it was like, maybe we need to do things differently. Or it was just a learning curve that, you know, they came, they didn't know how to approach it. And then now they're learning how to do it better. And they realize it much better.

much better to engage with civil society on the ground? I think it's a mix of quite a lot of push and pull factors, you know, changing. Because yes, as I said earlier, it's difficult and takes time to change behavior and culture of doing business, particularly if you are dealing with, you know, companies that have, you know, different ways of doing things coming from a very different context

in coming to invest in a very diverse context again because Africa has got very different. Exactly. With different landscape, different institutional landscape and difficulties as well. Exactly. So for me, I think it's a mix of many factors. If you look at it, one of it could

be China for a very long time has been painted as a bad investor. And even the worst actors also push the same narrative. And it could be that China is trying to respond and to address those, you know, so that at least they appear to be heading to the core of

And also this global trend on ESG sustainability becoming very tropical. If you speak of the EU, you have those corporate sustainability due diligence directives, you have, you know, reporting requirements, et cetera. If you're listed under certain stock exchange, then you also have to report your food

print on the environment, on the people, etc. So I think it's a mixture of many factors. From China as well, they also have their own reporting requirements, by the way, if company is listed there. So if you are also listed, say, in Beijing, you have to abide by those, which also demonstrates

do speak to some of these things we are talking about. So it's many factors. Then also the other thing is they also are realizing that it's a business risk to continue to, I think, business as usual model that they've been using before, to continue not heading to the interest of stakeholders in areas where they operate. It is a business risk.

I'm sure you may also be aware of instances where, for instance, say, I mean, you know the DRC context much better than I do, but I've been to Lubumbashi a couple of times in the CEQA and the GECA mines. So, you know, that picture being painted on the global scene to say, for instance, companies, big tech companies are ripping off the technology

So no one wants that bad publicity. It is, that's why I'm saying it is a mix of many factors. Then also on the ground, you know, you have civil society organizations that are also raising issues to say, you guys need to do business better, respect our people, respect our rights, respect our economies, also respect

our cultures because the bigger question also when it comes to culture is when you have for instance you know graves desecrated for people to just come and extract lithium or any other mineral so it's a mixture of many factors and by the way

My interaction with also some Chinese, you know, NGO actors, they also have this kind of thinking that Chinese government is doing quite a lot to ensure that their companies comply. Of course, this is never talked about enough or seen at least.

But the fact that they also have quite a number of regulations, whether they are enforced or not, I mean, that's a different discussion. Because you are speaking of huge economies sitting up there in Asia without institutions to follow up on every other business that they are sending outside the country. So it's also quite important for us to take note that from Chinese government itself, they also expect higher standards, whether they are able to.

implement and follow up and enforce compliance, that's a different thing. So my response, basically, it's a mix of many factors. But you being Soviet society and also in the work of law, what would you be your assessment on the impact of local institutions on the level of compliance of Chinese companies to ESGs and to norms on the ground? Do you think that local institutions play a tremendous role into shaping the way investment investors are behaving on the ground?

Yeah, absolutely. I do believe local actors have a role to play. And to some extent, they actually do influence, you know, how our investors do business and also from an ESG point of view. I'll use that. I mean, I'll demonstrate using an example of Zimbabwe because that's...

That's where most of the work we've got to end up. So in Zimbabwe, in 2023, the government launched what they call Responsible Mining Audit. And this audit, Responsible Mining Audit, essentially this was coming from the cabinet ministers and the president to say, we have been hearing and seeing a lot of cries by civil society actors saying,

demanding a higher standard of, you know, responsibility from companies in how they do business and also how their operations impact people in the environment. So government was cognizant of the fact that civil society for a very long time was saying we need to ensure that we are able to hold these guys to account. But how do we do that? We as a country have been relying mostly on regional and international frameworks, which many of them are not binding. So

These regional international frameworks, you have interest-related initiatives, the Initiative for Responsible Mining Assurance, we have OECD. Many of these are just guidelines and Zimbabwe is not a member of OECD. So the extent to which you can rely on this regional international framework is very limited in our context.

So government then, so it might be important now to heed the call that civil society are telling us, and we're also seeing it, the destruction happening to the environment, that we need to audit all the companies, be it large scale or small, that are involved in the extractives industry.

to understand what is the extent to which they are complying with our local laws. So the audit that government initiated in 2023 was influenced by the cries of civil society for a very long time. And the audit essentially

Essentially, they look at whether a company, so it's done annually. The 2024 was just done. We're speaking to the Minister of Mines to get an update on the report. It's essentially to audit to what extent are the mining companies in Zimbabwe complying with our local laws. So we have laws on labor, we have laws on environment, we have laws on paying taxes, we have laws on local procurement, all that. So there's a whole list of issues that they have to comply with. Terms of reference are developed.

A team of multi-stakeholders is sent into all the different mining regions to actually speak to the companies, assess their systems, speak to the communities. To what extent are they complying with this? A report is produced. Of course, when this started, we applauded government for it. We also then developed some terms of reference of what we thought the audit should at least focus on. Of course, us being a civil society, we are also alive to think that our laws might not be the best.

So we also infuse in some of the regional framework to say this audit also needs to look at aspects like this, borrowing from the UNGP, for instance, Union Cardinal Principles on Business and Human Rights, Pillar 2, Ordinary Responsibility of Business to Respect Environment, Undertake Due Diligence, Assess, etc., all that.

So that is how we are influencing. And all the companies, whether you like it or not, you are subjected to that audit. So that is, I think, a point of entry because this is something that is now being done annually.

And it came as a result of, as I said earlier, the movement pushing that there is need for more responsible business conduct in how extraction is happening in Zimbabwe. And I think that points to the fact that companies, whether Chinese, you know, American, European, whatever, as long as you operate in the sector, you are audited every year against the local standards that we have, you know, developed. So for me, it then also goes to the point you asked about sustainability.

So in 2019, Zimbabwe promulgated the Zimbabwe Stock Exchange requirements, which is a clause requiring companies to produce sustainability reports. And companies that are listed in Zimbabwe, so we have two stock exchanges.

One is overall Zimbabwe Stock Exchange, and the other one is called Victoria Force Stock Exchange. So if you are listed on either of these two stock exchanges, from 2024 this year, you are expected to report and produce your sustainability report. And what are the standards that you use? Government expect the companies listed to use the GRI, which is the Global Reporting Initiative, which is

It captures all the key disclosures in terms of your impact on the environment. If it's, for instance, coal mining, what are the material issues that you need to report on? Is it pollution? Is it waste management, et cetera? So I think there's a lot of things CSOs are doing and pushing for which government are already adopting and companies are expected to comply with those. So in brief, I think there is impetus and commitment, at least from different sectors. Of course, it does not happen at the pace

that civil society would want it. And also even its uptake by the companies does not happen at that pace. They need to, you know, change their systems because this law came into effect in 2019, but they had a grace period to put in place their systems so that their higher sustainability officers develop their internal policies. From 2024, I mean 2025, everyone is then expected to comply.

Oh, but thank you really for giving us the lay of the land to understand really how things are moving on the ground and really seeing how legal institution political framework really play a role into how mining companies are behaving being Chinese or non Chinese. We also see that as you mentioned, there is an impetus from Chinese companies themselves from laws within their own countries to now do things differently. And I really appreciate the work that you're doing. And with Zella, what you

you guys, what you're producing. And I was really impressed by the collaborative approach because we've kind of known civil society across the continent being quite vehement, being quite vocal when it comes to Chinese mining activities on the ground that sometimes they really don't open or being ready to collaborative approach. But with what we see with you, we see the collaborative approach. And from what you've been presented, we kind of see also that there is a willingness from Chinese company to want to engage with Zimbabwe and other civil society organizations

And this is basically what Cadry aims to achieve. And it's really commendable. So we are landing and we're finishing this interview. Tell us what's the future for Cadry, how things are looking, what we should be looking forward to and how, you know, what should we be looking to for in the future for Cadry and what next time we can have you to have an update on things that are going on the ground. All right. Thanks for that. So, yeah, the future for Cadry, I think this is just the start. This is a fairly new initiative.

What we are planning is to have engagements with different stakeholders, you know, through webinars. So we are planning to be having webinars where we have critical issues being discussed by both sides, China and Africa. Of course, with the focus, the countries that have the largest deposits of green minerals. So I talked about DRC, you know, Zimbabwe, obviously, South Africa, you know,

You know, Mali, Guinea, Ghana, those are some of the countries that we are looking at. Zambia, to say, let's say civil society, we plan, so serialize our webinars. And also we are having also physical ones. So in May, we are planning to have a dialogue, a policy dialogue at a higher level, which we are calling Africa's Critical Minerals Value Chain, it's rolling opportunities and challenges.

challenges. We are doing this collaboratively with the AMDC, Africa Mining and Minerals Development Center. We also bring in policymakers from the different African countries, civil society, multilateral institutions, particularly financial institutions, because everyone is talking about value addition, but how do you do value addition? I mean, it's not just as easy as it sounds, but

there's a lot of prerequisites required. So we also bring in the Batshi Mineral Arts Excellence Centre from Lubumbashi. So already plans are ongoing. It's happening end of May in Lusaka. So this is going to be one of the events that we are planning. And again, we are collaborating with other organizations like PowerShift Africa. Recently, that's about, I think, two weeks ago, we were in Lusaka.

in Botswana, having also a dialogue with a focus on China and we also had some Chinese stakeholders making presentations. We are also planning to do capacity building of policy makers, particularly parliaments. Parliaments play a key oversight role.

And we are also planning to, you know, target those. In Zimbabwe, we have already started this because we already have an MOU with the Parliament of Zimbabwe, where they require also support on building their capacity. As you know, most of our parliamentarians, you are voted into power, not because of the skills and expertise you have, but because

It's also important to target those key, you know, policy. So those are some of the initiatives they're doing. So we'll be doing and we're also calling for you guys, you know, China Global South Project to join this initiative. Yeah, I think we can do much more. We'd be really happy. We'd be really happy to keep on covering that and to really give the voice of

And to really voice and platform for you guys to be able to share it across the continent, because we do believe that there is a need to really have those conversations going, happening with civil society, with journalists, with policymakers, with decision makers, to be able to improve the relationship and to be able to improve, at the end, the engagement of the Chinese having with African countries, even more.

across different aspects, and specifically in the mining industry where we do have a lot of complaints, we'd like to see the change happening on the ground. Definitely, yes, we'd be happy really to work with you guys on that. Thank you so much for accepting the invitation. So yeah, we'll share more information with you. I'm very happy to be part of this conversation and happy that you were able to pick this up and create the information for us to share with you. Thank you. Yeah, we don't take this lightly or for granted.

Obed Borey, thank you very much. It was really a pleasure to have you for this special edition podcast in the China Global South interview. And we are really looking forward to hear more from you and more from Zela. And Zela is Zimbabwean environmental law organization is really doing something amazing.

amazing underground. We've been covering the reports for so many years and you can visit their website. You're going to find a lot about what they do. You're also going to find about CADRI. And if you're a civil society organization based off the DRC Zimbabwean, you listen to this podcast, please contact Zela, contact Obert. You're going to create synergy that's going to help us a lot. I'm really happy to hear and to see that Chinese organizations and civil society as well are trying to join hands and to work into making this happen.

happen and to making this real so Albert thank you very much and I'm going to see you next time for another show Christian thanks for having me happy to meet you again music

The discussion continues online. Follow the China Global South project on Blue Sky NX, a China GS project, or on YouTube at China Global South and share your thoughts on today's show or head over to our website at chinaglobalsouth.com where you can subscribe to receive full access to more than 5,000 articles and podcasts. Once again, that's chinaglobalsouth.com.

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