Why You Feel Empty After Having Sex (Even When You Want It)
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You know I've always said that pleasure is wellness. Well, now science backs me up. Magic Wand just released the results of a groundbreaking study, the first of its kind, measuring what happens to your mind and body when you use a vibrator every day for a week. And here's what they found. Stress levels dropped, sleep got better, connection increased with themselves and

and with partners, body confidence skyrocketed and overall happiness, it was up big time. And here's the kicker, the week with no sexual activity at all, participants across the board reported worse scores in every category, from mood to body image, just seven days without pleasure made a measurable difference. But once they introduced the magic wand,

everything shifted. So if you needed a reason to prioritize your pleasure, this is it. The magic wand isn't just iconic. Research shows it makes you feel better. Results are live and go check them out today at magicwandstudy.com and get your magic wand today to join the pleasure revolution. That's magicwandstudy.com. Stonewalling is like this wall, right? It's-

Yeah, there's no receiving. There's no giving. It's almost like the bridge of love gets torn away. That's kind of what it feels like in an instant when someone's stonewalling you. It's also like stonewalling can be part of like a silent treatment and stuff like that.

See that, just even hearing that made me feel with such anxiety. I don't think I could handle that. And I've often said that with you, I've noticed your pattern of knowing stonewallers. I think that I grew up with a stonewaller and that it's, I did. You did. And that I think that I have,

Like it scares me to think that someone could just cut like that. Yeah. Right. We all different tolerance levels to give you a reaction to that. But then you, you get that. You're like, are you sure? I keep knocking. I'm like, yeah, I'll never talk to you again. No. Interesting how different we all are with this.

Why is it that some people expect pleasure and others feel like they have to earn it? And why do so many of us prioritize our partner's experience over our own? And how do the earliest relationships we had, the ones we didn't necessarily choose, shape our capacity for intimacy now?

Well, in this episode, we're exploring the roots of the pleasure gap, the emotional, psychological, and nervous system-level patterns that shape how we experience connection, sex, and self-worth. Joining me today is Dr. Scott Lyons. He's a licensed holistic psychologist, a body-based trauma expert, and the author of Addicted to Drama. He's helped over half a million people worldwide break free from stress, trauma, and drama with his signature somatic approach.

We talk about how childhood dynamics wire us for what feels familiar in adult relationships and why we often repeat old emotional blueprints and how those patterns can keep us stuck in dynamics that feel one-sided, disconnected, or even performative. This conversation is about reclaiming your right to feel, to receive, and to truly know your own pleasure without guilt, shame, or apology.

So if you've ever found yourself asking, why do I always end up in this kind of relationship? Or why is it so hard to feel good? This episode is for you. All right, let's get into it.

So if we talk about people who repeat patterns, people say, oh, you're repeating patterns. I don't want to repeat. Oh, I'm dating my father. I'm dating my mother. What does that mean? People say that like, oh, my mom always used to say to me, oh, my first husband or my dad was just like my dad. I'm like, what does that mean? So when people say repeating patterns, I would love to break that down so we can actually know, am I repeating a pattern in my relationships that is

is really just mirrored from my childhood but isn't serving me as an adult. Yeah.

Well, we think about our nervous system like a record, a recording device, right? And it's constantly recording the information and creating shortcuts. So it's like, you know, if you're walking through a forest and you see like a ruffling in the trees and then like you see some brown fur, you know, it's a shortcut. Benji. No. You go, fuck, it's a bear. Yeah. That's called a cognitive shortcut.

And that helps us react faster and make decisions better. But at the same time... We're not being chased by a bear anymore. Well, we may not be. It may not actually be a bear. It may just be a dog or it may be a koala if you're in Australia, whatever. But the whole point is, is like our nervous system records from the moment we're born, actually right before we're born in our third trimester, which is interesting.

But it's recording all this information. So the chaos, the anger, the rage of our parents, the love of our parents, whatever it is that we experienced, especially in the first two, three years, is all being recorded. And that becomes our expectation today.

of how other people are, how the world is. And we start to act in accordance with our expectation of how other people are, how the world is, and what we believe is the most true and familiar way of being. So that's why I like that great saying, we'll always choose a familiar hell place.

over a new experience. It's also energy efficient. It's familiar. It's energy efficient. I want to go back to this. So it's a recording. So three weeks before you're born, third trimester. Third trimester. Third trimester, you're in your mother's stomach. Yeah.

And at that time you press record. Yeah. Your nervous system's online and starting to record. So you press record and then like your mom is upset about something or fights with your dad or she eats, she smokes cigarettes or she's taking drugs or she's,

depressed or something yeah and she's worried and scared about the baby and whatever so then then that's you press record yeah and then you come out of the womb and then you're shot into the world and then maybe like you it was it was a typical birth yeah it's hard getting your head out your head got one of those little dents in it or something oh shit i hate when that happens but yeah yeah i mean like that is when it starts so every single thing that's happening for about the

the first well forever but we're talking even the first we're talking pre-verbal yeah we're talking pre-verbal three months to six months three to three years well it yeah pre-verbal but it's also like before what's called the autographical memories or forms so like

Autobiographical memories are the things that like we remember, like I went to the grocery store. All of that happens around age two to three. So we have something called like the implicit memory system, which is the same part of like riding a bike, right? You don't have to think about riding a bike. You just do.

That same part of our memory is taking in all of that information for the first couple of years way before we have the part of our brain developed to remember autobiographical memories. Then we're like, oh, I went to a store. I went to a grocery store. I had a scary dream. Like, do you remember your birth? No. I don't either. But it was shitty. We're talking about our life. Right. But we're talking about...

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

And then we had certain needs. We had certain things that needs to have been met as well. Yeah. Is what I understand too, from like you're crying as a baby in the crib. This is how I learned to understand attachment. So I'm crying. And then my mom could either come up with a bottle and with the right time, or she's like, no, we're going to let her cry. And that happens a thousand times. And so I'm like, when I cry, I'm,

the bottle shows up or it doesn't show up. And so I think I'm alone. I'm going to have to just take care of soothe myself. Yeah, that's definitely a part of it. I mean, when we're born, our nervous system is not fully developed. So the part of us that as an adult, like I'm saying we're stressed out, we're driving to Coachella, right?

Or wherever. I don't fucking know. And people are honking at us. As adults, we're like, you and I, we're going to be like, okay, we're going to take a few deep breaths. We're going to regulate ourselves. It's not a big deal. It's just traffic. If we're late to Missy Elliott for the first 10 minutes, there's still, whatever, whatever. We have all these skill sets to regulate and cope, right? With stressors. As infants, we do not have that. We do not have the ability to do that for ourselves. So we have something called co-regulation. It's

It's where our adult figures come in and they do that for us. And they regulate our nervous system as infants. And they help us if there's a lot of shit. Give an example of that because I think that this is where the rubber is. Yeah. Rubber meets the rope is that a lot of us didn't get co-regulated. No. How we need to. About 55% of us did. Okay. Yeah. Oh, we did? Yeah. Oh, okay. 55 to 60% of us did. We got, well, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's, that doesn't mean we all had great childhoods, but at least in the beginning we got co-regulated. In the first two years we were co-regulated because when we were crying, someone held us. Someone held us and they were regulated. That's the trick here is like if your parent is, or my parent, for example, was hospitalized after I was born and,

and got severely injured in the birth was like really anxious about the injury um that she she had my mom had while giving birth to me like that level of anxiety that level of depression of being in the hospital all of that affects the quality of how i was held so

That's a great example of like, okay, yeah, I was held, but the quality of her own softness, ease, comfort was not present to then install it in me, in my nervous system. So now you know why I'm anxious. Yeah.

But like, it's a little bit complicated, but essentially it is like... Yeah. We learn from our caregivers how to support ourselves and how to regulate. And if we didn't learn that, we don't have that in our body to navigate stress. Or anger or worry or sadness. Or anger, emotions. Yeah. Or hold or express our experiences. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like when we talk about

and childhood issues and trauma, people sometimes get caught up in the like,

Oh, but my parents were always there and they were so good and they came to all of my games and they loved me so. And we're actually talking about something on a body level that you won't even be able to remember. And so it also allows you to make, absolve perhaps some kind of anger or worry or blame you have about parents as just being alive. Granted, your parents might have sucked. We're not talking about that. We're talking about like, this is us taking responsibility for everything.

A lot of stuff happened. But today as an adult, here's where I can understand my patterning and my nervous system. And once I do, this is how it's showing up in the partners I'm dating. The people I'm choosing. Yes. The sex I'm having. Yes. So that, right. Absolutely. So I love this grounding in that.

Yeah. It's good because then we get why it's important because you can't think your way out of a pattern. No, no. You didn't think your way into the pattern. You experienced your way into the pattern or experience happened to you. And it's not just what happened to you. Trauma is not just what happened to you. It's also what didn't happen to you. An emotional desert is

is trauma just as much as like a parent who is overbearing, overwhelming. - Yeah, I love that distinction. Can we stop there for a minute? - Yeah. - I think that's so important that a trauma is not only what happened to you,

abuse, all these things, but what didn't happen. So maybe you needed to be self-soothed and held and you wanted someone to show up and then it was neglect. So people often think of trauma as like, I was hit, I was this, but no, it's like what you needed and wasn't given to you. Trust, security, laughter, play, love, all of those fundamental needs. Who had all of that?

Anyway, so I think that's interesting. So then we go to where we are now. Yeah, how it shows up in our relationships, in our sex. And it shows up more in our romantic relationships. I always think about that because my friendships are – but for some people it shows up in friendships and not romantic relationships, right? Well, less so. That's less common. It certainly will show up in some ways in which we interact.

Because, yeah, because one of the things is it shows up in how we address stress. That's the thing about attachment theory is like we always blame it on like it shows up in our romantic relationships. Romantic relationships are often where we're engaging with the most amount of stressors. Like our critics, our insecurities, all of those things, having to constantly navigate someone else, that's...

That's a stressor. That's so interesting because that's probably for me why it's shown up more with work. Yeah, absolutely. It will show up in how you like show up at work, how your relationship is with work. With people like, yeah. So that is so interesting. It's where you bring up the most. Where it triggers them. Where you get triggered the most is where your trauma is going to show up. So maybe your friendships aren't triggering for some people they are, but typically it's in relation to a romantic interest. Because like often in our friendships, we're,

We're not together as much, right? We don't live together. We're not navigating as many components of life. And so like when you and I hang out, we're saving the best of ourselves for each other. Sometimes. Yeah. Except when I get really hungry or something. Oh, the hangry. And then we just give you a breakfast burrito and we're good to go. Right. Yeah.

But, you know, we're saving our best and we're using each other as a support system. And in our relationships, our romantic relationships, yes, ideally we have each other's support systems, but also there's so many other components, so many other factors of what a relationship is.

And this is why living with somebody makes it so much harder. And that's why I think living apart. Oh, my God. You love living apart. Well, because think of all the things that come up when you're living in proximity and then you're raising a child if someone chooses to do that. Yeah. But if you are not living in the same place. Such a component.

It's so you're not as rubbed up against each other and navigating life as much. It's also avoidant perhaps to not want to mingle. But I don't think we should all be co-mingling everything all the time with another person. It's not for everyone. I love cohabitating because then you get to address it and work through it ideally. And if you're like both growth mindset oriented.

If not, good luck. Yeah. But growth mindset oriented could also mean I've grown so much, I've realized that I really love my space. Yeah. And that can be true too. Let's talk about some of the... Patterns. Well, I love breaking down the pattern so people will get it. Yeah, yeah. Because look, y'all. We asked you all to... The theory is complicated. And if you didn't go to school for psychology... Yeah. We geek out on this stuff. We geek out on this. We started thinking when we were walking here, I was like, I actually...

think that after 20 years of educating and talking about sex and I've always tried to like you can talk you can all listen and I hope you do to the podcast for 20 years a lot of information in there however the stuff that's like stuck and the trauma and the patterns is really a piece that people are gonna have to work through if they really want the best sex of their life yeah it's missing and I love uncovering that stuff yeah and talking to you about it but

But for you, you're like, I've been talking about this forever. Like, oh, let's talk about the sex. So it's just funny because I'm like, but people have to understand including, but how our bodies, you know, are keeping us from relationships and orgasms too. I think it's stuff that you can't like do this sex position for. You might have more fun that night if you do the wheelbarrow position. Yeah. But the next day you're still going to be like depressed and feel like. And maybe sore. Avoidant and sore. If you don't do it right. If you don't stretch before the wheelbarrow. Right.

But I think it's interesting because I think, you know, I grew up as a trauma therapist. Deep, you know, all my mentors, my teachers, my friends were all like,

you know the the experts in the world on trauma and they would go from the direction of saying like hey to get better sex if they even talked about it which they rarely rarely if ever did i don't think i actually no one does right this is why this is being right here in this moment we're integrating this is the integration of it but with if they did talk about it they

They would say it's from heal the trauma to have the better sex. And I think it can go the other way around. You can have great sex to heal the trauma. You can have great sex that heals the trauma. It can dislodge the fucking like holding of trauma. But I think they can coexist. But you're not going to fuck your way to healing your trauma. Yes.

You're not. Can I get that up? If you're evolved and if you've done enough work and you have enough body awareness and you can feel your emotions, then you can use sex as a tool. But if you're just going right in it through sex and you haven't done any work on yourself, you're completely disassociated, you've watched a lot of porn, you might think you had amazing transcendent sex. But typically you have to have some knowledge of

Okay. Yeah. I respect that. Okay. Yeah. So we're going to read like a bunch of patterns. Should I start with people who've written in? So this is from Amanda. What's up, Amanda? Hey, Amanda. Every relationship I get into, I end up mothering the other person.

Yeah. Oh, Amanda, my love. She's like, I get a lot of nourishing through caretaking my partner. I feel so filled up. It makes me feel good to do that. But then nothing, none of my needs are getting met. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm so angry about that. Yeah.

Yeah. I think this is the interesting thing because at first, Amanda might be able to say, but that's my love language. And I would say that's your trauma language, boo. Yeah. Because, and for this reason, it's really important. It's like, are you being the motherly provider, the nourisher, because that's actually what you want? And are you trying to model it for a partner to get what your needs are and have been missing?

Yeah. Right? Rather, or is she really, when she's caretaking her partner, is she filled up? Yeah. Does she feel like this is purposeful? Yes. She feels filled up. But it sounds like maybe in the beginning she does, or not even. What we're saying is she might have watched her mother taking care of her father, and that's what her mother did. So she thought that's what

women do to get a man's love. And so she's found herself, I'm doing all the right things, but what I need isn't getting met. And I would say also, this is the crux. Does she actually know what she needs? Because her whole life she's been caretaking others. Probably not.

That's such a good question. It's like, and you can just fucking Google, like Google, like what are the primary needs? You'll see like trust, love, play. Food. Food, yeah. And go through the list and just like see which one feels best.

clear in your life? Like, oh yeah, I've had that. That resonates with me. And which ones feel like an empty void? And it will be striking. It'll be really clear. Yeah, I do this with patients all the time where I put up a PowerPoint of needs. Like the hierarchy of needs? Not Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not Maslow's hierarchy of needs. This is relational needs. Okay, let's just... I want to walk through the whole thing for y'all. So this is like safety. Safety.

This is security. This is trust. This is connection. This is play. These are like more... Acceptance. Acceptance. Respect. Prioritization. Communication. Yes. So, okay, but this is... Emotional expression is actually a... Security, trust, acceptance, appreciation, emotional support, affection, respect. So Amanda or any of us might go through this and go, okay, okay.

Well, I feel secure, sure. I feel like there's a roof over my head and he's kind of- Secure in this context is more about-

Like is there a secure sense that you will be there for me? Yeah. Which is different than like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which is like more of like – But that's how she might start when people hear secure. Yeah. I'm just trying to break it down. Feeling safe and protected in a relationship both physically and emotionally. Like I didn't feel protected in my last relationship because I felt that they said they were going to do a lot of things and fell through with their word. Yeah. And I was like, oh, that doesn't make me feel safe. No. And then we talk about trust. Obviously that's about –

and someone lying to you, whatever. But it's interesting to go through these and think like, oh, maybe she's not getting emotional support from her partner or maybe she doesn't feel respect. And I think you brought this up. Good. Can she? Can she? Because if we're not used to identifying our needs and we act them out

on with our partners in a way that we're hoping will be reciprocated. The other question is, even if it was reciprocated, could you receive it and absorb it? That's the other part of it. And all of this, like if we can absorb it, if we can identify our needs, if caretaking was what was modeled, and if caretaking was the belief of what could make us safe,

Right? All of these things, we will repeat it. We'll keep finding ourselves in the same relationship like Amanda is where it's like, oh my God, I'm caretaking again, which...

feels good or feels familiar, which is an important distinction. Then she probably might look that her mother's not really, didn't get her needs met here. This is just, we're just guessing. So the first thing is like, look at what those feelings are, because I am guessing that most of us don't really know exactly what it is that we need to identify it. And then we've learned to communicate to someone who thinks they're doing all those things. I make you feel safe or I make you feel loved. And then you got to give them examples of breakdown and be like,

Three times a week, I'm going to need you. But this is the work that we talk about. It could actually work if you're with a partner who has a growth mindset around working on the relationship. And I always like when you go through that list of needs. We should post those needs. Yeah, we'll totally post those needs. And one of the things to identify is what has been. If you're watching us on YouTube, we could flash up those needs on a card. We'll flash it up. We'll flash something.

What has been the missing need in the driver's seat of your life? Meaning it's like the unmet need with your inner child has been in the driver's seat for a long time, especially in your relationships. What would you say? Do you think we all have a few? Oh, yeah. Like mine is like not being known, not really being known. That's not one of them.

My need is to be seen. Prioritized. Prioritized seen. It's probably to be prioritized, to be appreciated, to be accepted. Yeah. And different theories have different lists. No, no, no. I think that's adjacent though. But I want to hear that. Your primary need is to not feel – Is to be seen and experienced. Yeah. That's your main one. Yeah. And because that was really missed. And not because like there was a malintention.

It's because there was preoccupation. They didn't know how to. They didn't know how to. Okay, this is so... And so that became the driver of like whenever it even smelled... First of all, I would seek...

partners who couldn't meet my needs who would even tell me having needs was too much that i was too much and i'd be like hey do you think um when we talk you cannot yell at me like that as a fundamental need or like do you mind asking me questions about how i'm doing once in a while

And they just couldn't do it. They're like, you're too much. And I'm like, okay. So you're creating this scenario where you believe that you're too much. You're creating this scenario over and over again. Yeah. And it reinforces the same not being seen, not being heard, but also a hypersensitivity to it. So if that inner child who's wounded with the missing needs is in the driver's seat of our life, it also means we're on the lookout for it, right? So if like a friend, like if you didn't call me back,

In two hours. And I'm used to you calling me back. I'll be like, is she mad at me? Like, or I didn't feel seen. I'm upset because you didn't follow up and ask me how my day was today, which I'm,

you're entitled to. It's like those type of things. We become hypersensitive to something and kind of put it through the filter. I do try to get back. I feel like it's important for you for me to get back to you. Yeah, I like it. I know. Thank you for doing it. But I know that you're the friend. I have some friends who are like, I don't care. I'm like you. I don't get back to them. But for you, I feel like it matters to you that people get back to you. And I feel seen by it. It just reminds me that my friend Jen feels like that too when I have a gun back to her. Hold on.

See, I'm working on this stuff because I don't get back to people. It's not my nature. Yeah. That's my avoidant nature is I actively, not consciously, but I don't get back. Yeah. So I want to- What was your missing need? Like, what would you say is like- Well, that's what I'm thinking right now. What is my primary missing need? Yeah. Honestly, I think security. I think- That makes sense. Emotional support for sure. Yeah. Having someone to turn to for emotional support. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, prioritization. Yep. Feeling that my needs were and desires were taken into account. Yeah. And I think communication opened out to sharing of thoughts. But I would say the big one would be, I don't know, security and trust. Yeah. I mean, we've talked about that for you. Like, yeah. Yeah. Feeling that. And being, and like the repetition of even dating people or having work relationships or other relationships where they aren't

Like consistent, they aren't stable, they aren't secure. I keep working and dating people like that, that who are not secure, consistent, and stable. Yeah. And that is because that's so interesting because, yeah, I didn't have that growing up. No.

And I wouldn't even recognize, but it's so confusing because I'm like, I know what that looks like. Yeah. And it's just a hard thing because it's like on the other side, it's so easy to blame the other person. I know. And I really try not to. It's just that it's easy to blame the other person and actually abandon our own missing needs even more. That's when we become like the victim and we're blaming everyone else. We become the victim. Yeah.

And we are at times truly a victim to other people's patterns too. Should we read some more? Yeah. Okay. Oh, this is from Mark. I always fall for the person who travels a lot, isn't ready for a relationship or just got out of one. I tell myself I like the chase, but really I'm terrified of what would happen if someone actually stayed. Who likes the chase? Wow.

A lot of people like the chase. Really? Oh my God, yeah. People who are unavailable. This says to me people who are unavailable so you won't get abandoned, right? Yeah, I think it's more of that avoidance structure. Yeah, avoid it. This would be me in a variation. Do you like the chase? No. No, I've never known you like the chase. I don't like the chase. No. Do you like being chased? No. I'm more about, yeah, I mean, sure. I like to feel loved and adored and hot. Someone wants me. But I think I date people who are unloved.

unavailable or I know they're like it's like there's gonna be my mom calls it the fatal flaw of yours she's like oh my god what's his fatal flaw every time I tell her I'm dating someone like the ick factor there are a lot of people who just got out of a relationship who are not actually ready there you know all of those factors are true and I think that the end is a really important one it's like okay if you keep finding yourself in those situations

How available are you truly? And it's not like I want a relationship. I'm available for one. It's actually deeper. It's reflexive. Can you explain what that is? Because when people are like, no, I'm totally ready. Yeah. Because I feel like I used to say,

For my 20s, this was my paradigm. I was like, every guy I date is emotionally unavailable, emotionally unavailable. I didn't even know what that meant. I just said it. And then I realized, oh, I'm emotionally unavailable. And then that's when I learned how to do the work. So what is that actually? Would you explain that? Yeah. I mean, okay. So I think it's easy enough for us all to be like,

I'm ready for a relationship or I'm the one who's committing. But if they should, yeah, Mark is right. Like if someone else showed up and met them, could they sustain connection? And that looks like all of a sudden, like I'm checking my phone or all of a sudden I'm thinking about my next vacation or I'm thinking about the future with us. I'm not actually in the present with them.

I've gotten enough dates with guys who they're like, I'm looking for a relationship and I'm secure. And I'm like, great. Where would you like to have a date? They're like, oh, I'm really busy this week. I'm like, oh, so when someone actually meets you where you are, you can't sustain. That is a perfect example. Like, no, I'm ready. I'm super ready for a relationship. And then they're like, I don't know. I've got to get back to work. It's crazy. I'm so busy. My dog died. My grandma died. Remember there was someone that was like,

Everyone died in their family. Yeah. Come on. You're just not available. You're just not available. And it's like...

So availability and sustained intimacy is hard. I mean, here's an example I'll do with a client who will come in and say the same thing. Like, pretend you're Mark. So, God, I keep meeting all these people and they're amazing. And then I find out they live in Singapore. Yeah. Or they travel like, you know, three times a week and they're so busy with work that they don't have time. Like, every person I meet is just not available. Yeah. Or they're just getting out of a relationship. Yeah.

-Totally. -That's so difficult. -That's really hard. -I know, it's so hard. -There's no money. -Mark, I'm wondering if we pause there for a moment, take a few breaths, clench up your body a little bit just so you can feel where you are on the couch and then release a little bit. Just move your shoulders, come back to you because we know they're not available, but I want to find you first.

As you find yourself through your breath, as you find yourself through more weight of your body and movement, can you hang out here? Can you hang out in yourself? Are you comfortable? Do you start thinking about someone else? Do you start thinking about what's next on your day? How long can you sustain being in yourself?

That's part one. And then as you're building the repertoire or building your vocabulary of staying present in yourself or what helps you anchor back into yourself, I might say to you like, what's it like to be with me in the room? Can you see what I'm wearing? Can you see my hair color?

Can you take that in? And I might say, oh, Mark, I notice as you start to take me in, you drift away. It feels like all of a sudden there's more distance. Did you notice that? So it's really this nuance. And that is what we're talking about. That's the somatics. Yeah. And all of that is reflexive happening below the awareness of your consciousness and is driving you.

the car of your relationship, of your life. I love it. And that meaning that when I'm Gary and I'm out, or Mark. Mark. Who's Gary? Gary's the next guy on the list. So Mark is out with somebody. He's not recognizing that he's actually projecting into the future or kind of leaving the room and not really being as present. Dissociating. Disconnecting. So that person doesn't really know them.

No. Oh, my gosh. And this is like. That's why this kind of work is so. And this happens so much in sex, too. I mean, like, I know you and I have had conversations. Like, I find it. I get triggered. And this is my shit. When I feel like I'm having sex with someone and they drift. Yeah.

And, you know, that's their trauma. Like that level of intimacy. Can you explain what you mean by drift? Yeah, like they just don't feel present. Yeah, it just feels like they're gone, like they're not quite there with you. Or you know what it's like when you're talking to a friend and you're like, are you even listening? Or where'd you go? And that happens so often in sex. And they are misses, right? They're misses of connection that often then trigger our early childhood shifts.

And so for me, it's like, that's why I'm sensitive to it. And I've consistently dated partners where I'm like, where'd you go? Hey, come back to me. I'm here with you. And I know it's a safety issue. And typically during sex is when it shows up. That's so, okay. Ideally, you don't talk about it while you're having sex. Bring it up and, hey, is this like, we're out to lunch. Hey, is this an opportunity? Is this a moment that feels cool and safe that we talk about more often?

our sex life so would you say that that has been your one of your most common patterns when it comes to sex here's what i would say um is that a lot of the people i've dated short term are more present and the people i have dated long term seem to be non-present and i've tried to change it and fix it and support them and love them into more presence so that i could feel more seen and heard and

And that's my own shit. See, now I understand. I'm remembering all this when we first met. Yeah. And that makes a lot of sense in your patterning now that you know that. And that it's just such a good way for people to think. Is that common? Because people sometimes have sex, so it feels empty. It doesn't feel connected. And that's why the whole one-night-stand thing that people always talk about are flings. It's funny because I actually can feel connected now.

Through most sex I have, I felt very connected because I went for so long having disconnected sex. So I have sort of an opposite thing that I could have great sex with this iPhone. What I'm saying is I have the opposite thing when it comes to sexy connection because I think I know I lock into it because that's been my practice. However, I have felt the disconnect relationally with the people I'm dating just

listening to me or make allow me feel safe being consistent following through you want to read some more yeah okay so then we've got okay i'm a talker i want to work through everything is this me are you reading me just say scott okay i keep ending up with partners who shut down withdraw or say i'm too much so i over explain even more until we're both exhausted that is you oh shit

Does it just say Scott up there? Yeah. No, we'll call him Scott. How about Lil Scott? Lil Scott. That's interesting. So that means that Scott is, you really deeply, deeply want connection with somebody. But the people that you're with are just like,

It's like the stonewalling. They're like, nope, you're repeating that pattern. Like you're not enough. You're too much. Overexplaining is a trauma response. Overcommunicating is a trauma response. And this is the weird thing because it's like if those who privilege communication as like one of their, the things they love the most, sometimes that communication is, it's hard to say, but overcommunication is,

It's like there is a skill set on what needs to be said, how much needs to be said to be truly understood. So would you say that sometimes you, aka Scott, overdoes it? Communicating is really important. It's so important. Most people are trying, but there's a road where you, there's a world where you sometimes overdo it.

overdo it but then you're also picking partners who can't even handle so is there both are true both are true so you're with somebody and maybe like in our friendship for example like I love communicating stuff like your people you surround yourself with like I want to go through it let's break it down let's get into it but for whatever reason the people that you're attracting just don't have that

That skill set, that interest, that knowledge of how to communicate? Yeah. I would say, yeah, communication is something that we learn. And there's something called open processing versus closed processing. And so like some people, when they need to navigate and deconstruct something and understand something, they go internal. And they really work it out on a walk or a gym. They're thinking about it.

And there are others of us who are open processors like me and you and we're like, I'm going to call you on the phone and I need to deconstruct this conversation I just had with my other friend and I need to just say it out loud. I need to hear my thoughts. I need you to reflect it back to me. Oh my God, I'm so sorry how exhausted I am as a friend.

No, but see, so I'm the kind of friend. It makes me feel closer to you that I'm the friend that you can call to process things. Oh, my God. I love you. And talk it through. So no, but I think that's why I was like, tell me more. Tell me everything. I know. This is why we get along so well. I want to hear you break it down. And then I want to be able to support you in that way. Yeah. And that's a very particular person because some people, they might jump into fixing your partners. They might say, why do you need to process everything? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I love being that friend. Yeah. And it's not like a closed processor isn't processing.

Like my sister, you know, might be met recently, is a closed processor. Like I've never, she's never called me to process something. But I will call her multiple times a day to be like, this came up and then this came up and then this came up. And she'll give such succinct ways of responding where I'm like, no, no, no. I have to say this and this and this and this and this and this. Is it helpful though? It's so helpful. Like I call them, her and her partner, my editor. Okay. Yeah.

Because I will write this long extended text message about like sharing all my feelings and my thoughts and describing everything and asking lots of questions in response to something that's coming up in dating. And they'll respond back with

with a two seconds max. Is that what it was? Yeah. Is that there are so many people who are like, no, I actually need a moment when you brought this up. I need some space, which isn't always a bad thing to say. Like, I'm going to go to the gym. It's great. I'm going to go for a walk. Yep. Again, because of how what they saw modeled in their home. Yeah. One of their parents might have been internal processors or it wasn't safe.

And so they literally have to take, need to take the time. Yep. And people like you, and I would say I'm an external processor. I actually think I don't process on my own. And that could be a burden sometime, probably hard for people that sometimes I might externally process on people who aren't the right receivers of that processing. Sure. We're both little Scotts.

We're both really scots. I overcame and I could track stonewalls, yeah. So anyway, I just think it's interesting, even just this nuance of how do you practice in a relational, in a romantic relationship, if you're like, we're talking about it now. You never talked to me. It also takes down the partner who's an internal processor to recognize it and two of them together saying, well, you know how I am. Eventually they get over it. I'm going to need to go for a walk. I'm going to have to take the weekend and think about it. Doesn't mean I'm not processing it. Yes.

And that's different than a stonewaller. Okay, so let's talk about a stonewaller. So a stonewaller is like one of the four Debbie sins. Right. Four Debbie horsemen. The horsemen. Yeah, the horsemen. The apocalypse of the horsemen. Yeah. The Gottmans. Yeah, the Gottmans. And it's like stonewalling is like this wall, right? The person's wall.

Yeah, there's no receiving. There's no giving. It's almost like the bridge of love gets torn away. That's kind of what it feels like in an instant when someone's stonewalling you.

It's also like stonewalling can be part of like a silent treatment and stuff like that. See that, just even hearing that made me feel up with such anxiety. I don't think I could handle that. And I've often said that with you, I've noticed your pattern of knowing stonewallers. Yeah. I think that I grew up with a stonewaller and that it's... You did. I did. You did. And that I think that I have...

Like it scares me to think that someone could just cut like that. Yeah. Right. We all different tolerance levels to give you a reaction to that. And knowing that you can like,

But then you get that. You're like, knock, knock. Are you sure? I keep knocking. I'm like, I will never talk to you again. No. Interesting how different we all are with this. And behind the stone wall is usually so much rage. Let's talk about anger. Yeah. So like I dated a stone waller. Has a lot of unresolved anger. Yes. Yes. There's usually under like the stone walling I have found, not always, is usually trying to cap the rage.

So like, and if you're like me, we're like the stone wall and you're like, hey, let's communicate this through. Knock, knock, knock. I love you. What's going on? Share more with me. And it's like you're pushing on their cap of the rage until the cap comes off and it's just like explosive. Right? Yes. And that takes on us or you or someone to be like, oh, this is when I have to.

Yeah. Yeah. Walk away. Yeah. It's, it's sometimes the stonewallers, it's their inability to say I need space and they just create this freeze and this like, again, this wall, this barrier that's so, so,

It feels out of the blue too, right? It feels out of the blue. It feels violent. You don't know when it's going to happen. You don't know when the gate's going to come down. That's a really hard one too. So what do we say to us is that we just have learned to kind of regulate ourselves in the presence of someone who's shutting us down. Yeah. And if someone's... Even just as I just don't deal with them. Yeah. And don't talk to a stonewaller when they're stonewalling. It's stop knocking on the damn stonewalling door. Right. Or wall for that matter. People in stonewalled houses throw stones. Yeah.

They will if you keep knocking. Yeah. That's all they got. That's all they got, right? And so I think it's really important to be like, okay, they aren't able to ask for the space that they need, but you need to give it to them. And guess what? It's also very manipulative. It's a way of maintaining control.

And so... It's the way that the stonewaller is maintaining control. Yep. It's the way the stonewaller is maintaining control. Because they see that you will react to it. Like I personally wouldn't have that because I have so many other things. But that one is too... And anyone who's trying to manipulate to maintain control means that something inside deeper feels out of control or did feel out of control when they were younger. That's a great way of saying it. Someone who is manipulating you with that anger...

And control. In control. And trying to control. Trying to control you with anger. Through something like stonewalling. Stonewalling. Through stonewalling, through freezing, through not communicating, through not giving you any responsivity, through not moving through a process together, is trying to maintain control.

because somewhere inside of them, historically or now, they feel out of control. - That's a good one. It feels like we can find a little bit of ourselves with the people we've loved in all of these. - Or all of our past relationships. - All of our past relationships. Okay, ready? So how about, here's the next one. - Yeah, let's do it. - I match whoever I'm dating. If they're into indie films,

I'm suddenly obsessed. If they're fitness freaks, I start running marathons. I don't realize I've lost myself until after the breakup. Okay. So,

Everybody becomes like a mirror. Like they're a chameleon. Yeah. This is the chameleon. Okay. They're seeking to connect. They're seeking to connect with anybody. This is someone typically who has not had enough time in their life and support to

to have a clear sense of who they are. Yeah, a clear sense of self. And they feel like who they are is typically not good enough. And so they have to chameleon into whoever they're with

To match, to sustain, to create a sense of relating and compatibility. And this is, you know, like I'll just name it. This doesn't mean you have borderline personality disorder. But in the borderline personality disorder research, this is a typical pattern too. If someone with borderline doesn't have a stable sense of self, and so they'll match and mirror borderline.

other people and and a mesh into the another person's life yeah it's really a self self-esteem self-worth yeah i don't really know who i am lack of boundaries that merging i'm gonna merge it's gonna feel safe you're gonna like me because i'm not sure how much i like myself i can abandon myself for you yeah it's part of the nature of

of navigating the dance relationship. A new connection. We tend to do that. Yeah. It's like, it's not uncommon, but in the more extreme version where you start to actually mirror like, oh my gosh, I've never run before and all of a sudden I'm a marathon runner because they are, that's more the extreme example of like, where'd you go? Where'd you go? Who are you? And then you end up perhaps in this kind of relationship

you can also resent your partner because you're like, you're not sending me my things and now you made me do all these things for you. I'm doing all these things or I gave up my life to do all these things and now you haven't really paid attention to what I actually need but we really haven't

voiced what we need or we don't know or we let someone else take over override that have you ever done that like lost yourself in a relationship I don't think so that doesn't seem like your style my style is like so anti that I'm like I would never I personally yeah that sounds really sad

Scary. Scary and I'm probably not that. If they're doing something that I don't want to do, I will very clearly make it known. That's a great boundary. That's a good boundary. Because you don't want to see me bored. If I'm living that interesting life. You do not want to see Emily bored. It looks like you're at a party and all of a sudden you look over in the corner and she's like, we're leaving. We're out. But we just got here five minutes ago. We're leaving. We're done. We're done.

And when you're done, you are done. Yeah. So I can't fake it? No. You cannot fake it. But there's other layers to this. I really can't fake it. My first boyfriend cheated on me and ghosted. Okay. Now I only feel attracted to emotionally unpredictable people. Yeah. When someone is consistent, I feel bored and suspicious. So here...

Like first boyfriend cheat on her and ghosted, which I can, that stuff hits deep. The first love. Yeah. And it might have also been before that. Most likely. Most likely the dad or the mom were not predictable. But basically what she's saying is that, yeah, I have this really early memory of being cheated on and then the person disappeared. Yeah. And now everyone that I find hot and sexy are completely unavailable and unpredictable. Yep. Yep.

This is the interesting thing, right, about what we find attractive sometimes is the trauma tingles. Trauma tingles? The trauma tingles. I love the trauma tingles. Oh my God, I got this butterfly in my stomach and it means I'm in love. No, girl. It's your trauma tingles. It's your trauma tingles.

You know, it's like it. Check your trauma tingles at the door. And it's an important distinction. Do you ever sex that? Like, I don't know if I find if these are butterflies or trauma tingles. Could you make trauma sexy? I bet you could.

I'm working on it. I'm writing a little novel about – Sexy trauma. Sexy trauma. No, what the fuck, Emily? Bringing sexy trauma back. I'm bringing sexy trauma back. No. Well, I don't know. It's just so important. I mean – Not to make it sexy, but to make it relatable. I try to make it playful. Yeah. Like I definitely – sometimes when I'm lecturing about trauma, like I'm rolling around on the ground.

during like, you know, examples of what, I don't know, whatever. I think you should do the trauma, no. Do the trauma tingle dance? Yeah, I don't know. But this is interesting. So yeah, and when someone is consistent, it's funny because we were talking about like, personally, I crave consistency. I know a lot of people do. If someone's not consistent, I have mistrust of them. Of course. But this person, she's like, no, like they're inconsistent. This means I can,

it always keeps it exciting or I get to chase them or I – Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I'll be hurt again in the same way I was earlier. Absolutely. We're repeating the same pattern over and over again. And I think it's really important to say if boredom – and we were talking about this earlier. If boredom in a relationship is a turnoff for you and so you keep finding, I don't know, the roller coaster of relationship –

that's not what we would consider healthy. That's more like an addiction to drama. Yeah. You know, it's like when you're- People should read your book about that. It's called Addiction to Drama. It is called Addiction to Drama. Addicted to Drama, yeah. Yeah.

And I think it's a really important thing because I remember coming out of a really funky rollercoaster of a relationship. And a friend of mine who's a dating expert who's been on the show actually, Amy Chan, was like, hey, I want to connect you with this person. I want you to try out some dates with them. By the way – Try out dates or go out? Go on dates. Go on dates. Try out this human being. Try out this dating thing. Try out this whole dating thing again. And she was like, text me when you're bored.

Because I'm going to remind you, this is your trauma tingle searching for more stimulus. And that boredom could actually be the sort of doorway into better intimacy. So you text her from the bathroom when you got on a date. You're like, I'm bored. Bored. What happened? Nope. I was bored. Right.

I don't think it was my intimacy issues. We should be checking ourselves when we're actually bored in the long term. Or any relationship. Maybe it just means that instability and this is not that comfortable. And we actually feel like someone says what they're going to say. They keep their word. They do what they say they're going to do. They show up for me.

We don't get the whole hormonal cocktail as much when things are sustained as we do when things are on that roller coaster. I just thought about a harmonica. Like if there was a hormonal monica, like a harmonica where you could just play out your hormones. So anyways, this human being. Yeah, this human being. You got to kind of build your tolerance through boredom. But I feel. Oh, you get bored easily. In relationships and in life. But that's like, but then also that could be a.

But do you – I mean nobody likes, quote, unquote, the drama. But do you like – No, I don't like it at all. I know. And you don't like fighting and you don't like – No, I don't at all like fighting or drama. That's why. You really – That's the ADHD part I think. I hate saying – I was ADHD before like for many years. Well, I think boredom is not a great word. But we use it, right? We use it as a catch-all.

It's more layered. Is it like, am I not feeling like stimulated enough by them intellectually, emotionally? Am I not doing enough activities outside of the house? Is there not enough novelty?

Or is boredom representative of I feel safe and something inside of me is not... I love this. You know what I mean? Because boredom could be so much... All of those things, the flip side of boredom, right? Is that you're being stimulated in the ways that you want to be stimulated. Yeah. This person is interesting. They see you. They hear you. They come up with great ideas. Their life is interesting. They want to bring you along with them on a journey. Yeah. Or...

Everything is the same every day in and out. And you understand that that does lead to the monotony, which is why so many of us do crave novelty. Because in a way, monotony is also safety. Boredom can also be safety. But we can only tolerate it. And can you tolerate safety? And are you confusing not tolerating safety with boredom? This is so nuanced. That's the part. That's the thing. That's what we all try to balance here. We're just…

We are so complicated as human beings. We are so complicated. I mean, I love that we're breaking down different patterns because when we talk about how childhood trauma shows up in your adult relationships, it's so unique. Here's one from Annalise. On every date, I'm charming, funny, and dressed perfectly. They fall in love with the version of me I present.

Later, I resent that they don't really know me because I never showed them. This is one that I completely recognize in the people who feel that they have to be perfect. They have to present well. They cannot be vulnerable. Their looks and their presence is what's going to give them love. Yeah, and I want to say like,

especially in the beginning of a relationship, you know, you bring our representatives. Yeah. You want to, well, first impressions matter. And so of course there's a version of us that's not in our everyday like pajamas. Like I didn't wake up like this. This is six hours of makeup. I'm just kidding. But you know what I mean? Like we're presenting our, our, a version of us to, to have first impressions. That's what,

happens naturally in dating. I mean, or like what, I'm curious for you, like, you know, like would you just show up at a first date in your pajamas and your messy self? I get messy pretty quickly. So I'm a little bit different. I maybe make an effort. I go all out for a little bit, but I'm pretty comfortable being my mess, I think. Yeah. So that's why I'm saying people who keep this going for a long time feel fear, I think, of being messy.

I don't know, being messy. I guess I don't have that perfection thing personally, but I definitely show up charming and great, but I pretty quickly show that I'm... And when I say messy, I mean like...

I've got stuff going on and this is going on with me that things I'm trying to figure out. I think I'm vulnerable. You mean human? I think I'm fairly human early on. And I think that's an important distinction of like, but you are charming, you are funny and you're messy. Yes. And it's just like there's a titration of revealing ourselves in relationship. Like,

Which is also okay. You don't want to show up as everything right away. But I think what I'm hearing from this, Annalise, is that

she shows up perfectly, but she's actually deeply afraid that if she, it's like those women I think about like in the, they do it now who wake up in the middle of the night, put lipstick on or put their makeup on because their partner's sleeping. Like that's the more like layered superficial version of it. But like everything in my life is perfect. My house is perfect. I've got it all together. And I'm deeply, deeply uncomfortable with showing up

Any vulnerability. Not only vulnerability, but any needs that I might have. I actually don't know how to ask for a need. I don't know how to explain to you what I need, what I want, or any of my flaws. I know many, many people like that. Yeah. It is this delicate balance, right? Of like...

of putting your best foot forward when meeting someone because these are also but this is the people who are like my imperfections or what yes yeah so we because I would guess Emily isn't performing charming because no one would believe that

Right? I mean, even when we talk about narcissism, right? Charming. That is also true. Like, there is a part of them that is charming, that is very elevated, that is very energetic. Yeah. That's not...

It's not like they're running around with five different personalities. I want to be really clear about that. When we say performing, right? We're extending an aspect of ourself more as what's like in the forefront. And then slowly we might reveal the curtains of what else is part of us. I think that Annalise...

Her partner probably sees more than she thinks. I would imagine so. They know that we're not all just one way. Yeah. And that's an important conversation of going like, hey, this is a part of me that I like also presenting. Unless you don't, which is important. Like Annalise, if you don't like being charming, if you don't like being funny, if you don't like exhibiting that part of you, that's also important to know.

However, I imagine you are charming. I imagine you are funny. And yes, you might turn up the volume on that in dating. But it is also important to let your guard down and let people know what else is part of you. People want to know you. They want to know you. And they want to be there for you and they want to see all sides. I think that's what we're talking about is truly, fully showing up as our true vulnerable self.

selves that are messy and have all the parts and that takes time i want to really clarify that because we can be so hard on ourselves putting our best foot forward and like you don't really know someone in a relationship until you're about six months in developmentally speaking of a relationship that's really when you start seeing all of the pieces and it's like

It takes like a season for them to go through who they are. Yeah. Six months to nine months. Yeah. People, you don't know the first month. No. And on the third date, you can be like, hey, what's your biggest orange flag? Like I love asking people that. Orange flag. Yeah. It's not like a red flag. It's like, hey, what's something you don't like? You're so charming. You're so lovely. What's something you don't often let people know about you?

What's a part of you that doesn't really get to, like, that's sort of less, like, in the public eye or less in the, like, in dating? What would you answer to that if someone asked you? Like, I don't organize a house well. Like, I have supplements all over my bathroom. Like, I don't put things away and it doesn't bother me.

But I make the bed just so you know. I find the counterbalance. That's saying I'm a little messy and I don't cook well. I'll just be up front. If you're expecting the gourmet meal, I'll order it. Exactly. I'm really good at ordering. I'm really good at ordering. I'm so good at picking up food. Yeah, and not great at cooking because I – That's too bad. I didn't even know those were things that you should –

Like I've never cooked or been neat, but... I'm not neat and I don't cook. Although I can cook and I can be neat, I just don't want to be. You don't want to be. That's the reality. What about you? What are your orange flags? I don't know. I find that so interesting. I don't know. I feel like I wear my orange flags on my sleeves. That's why I actually don't, but that might not be true. Let me think. You're pretty upfront. I feel like I don't lead with like...

I cook or I clean. That doesn't even seem like, that's obvious that I like really, really require a lot of alone time and a lot of space and independence. Yeah.

Yeah. So that might like, you might share that as you're moving through and just say like, and I like a lot of- I've even said to them, you will hate me one day when we break up and tell me that I am super avoidant and I can give you enough. Which I would then be like, wow, you're such a good communicator. I'm attracted to you now. Even though you just said like the red flag. No, I don't know about the orange flag. It's a really good question. Yeah. Probably just, I think, well, I'm just going in feedback of years of dating. Yeah.

And trying to be self-aware. I think it's that I often, maybe I'm not as available as they would like. Yeah. Or not as committed. Yeah. Like two feet in. And this is the thing for Annalise of just like, what would it be like to reveal some of the aspects you're less aware of?

forthright about and just see how someone is with you and sort of start to build up that sense of confidence that someone will stay and be with you even in the many variations and aspects of who and how you are. Right. And yeah. And like, look, y'all, we all carry our shit forward into adulthood. Like that's the real, real. And it's so important to recognize your own pattern because that's empowerment. Right.

Because once you recognize it, you can learn to shift it, learn to feel, to at least be aware of it and manage it differently next time. Maybe even we're talking about attracting different kinds of partners next time. And attracting different type of partners. You got this.

That's it for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening to Sex with Emily. And if you love the show, please like, subscribe, and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, share this with a friend or a partner. It might just spark something. It usually does.

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