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Welcome to a very special edition. It's an Only Dan's edition of the Risk Reversal Podcast. Dan Ives here with me, Global Head of Technology Research at Wedbush. Dan, welcome back. Great to be here. You and I had one of my most enjoyable conversations that I've had in a very long time. It was on April 11th. You were in here sitting in that same seat. And I was like,
And we're in the throes of this. That was a dark day. Yeah. So let's just talk about that. All right. We're going to talk about tariffs. We're going to talk about its impact on major tech. We're going to talk about some of these names in particular. We'll probably still focus on the largest ones and kind of the post-earning sort of take here. And then maybe we'll get into some of this commentary we've heard from others.
about ai it's going to kill all of us or maybe it won't i don't know so we'll talk a little bit about that and some of the names that you think um are interesting outside of the hyperscalers and nvidia and that sort of thing all right let's go back to april 11th you and i are here um things felt bad you know the uh the markets the broad markets were careening but it wasn't just about stocks it was the dollar was getting hit yields were going higher right there was a lot of things going hit gold was making new highs these stocks were careening lower
Where are we a month out right now? In your own head, how are you feeling about things right now? - I mean, I'm feeling, well look, that was like, I gotta tell you, and I think I told you, like in 25 years in this business.
that period, that like week or two, it's probably some of the most negative I've ever felt, including financial crisis. Because in tech, because of the supply chain, because of tariffs, and ultimately what that was going to do, look, we are in a dramatically different situation. And the reason we are today, it's not just after getting through earnings season, it's
If you look, it's a 90-day pause in terms of everything we saw there. It's the realization that administration is going to have to continue to back off when it comes to China tariffs. 145% we think ultimately ends up being a 20, 25%. And I think the biggest thing is all the survey data. I mean, look, we live on survey, field check survey data. The spending trends have held up
In the enterprise, hyperscale, IT...
- Shockingly. - And you're just basing that off, not just the earnings and the guidance we just got, just the survey data. - And like the hundreds of enterprise we talked to. - Just explain that process for some who have not been in this infrastructure, whether it be sell side, buy side. What does that mean? Because a lot of folks who watch CNBC and they're looking at their screens, wherever they're doing that, they're looking at the headlines that are coming from the companies, what analysts and strategists are saying, that sort of thing.
Tell us what the survey is. It must be great. My value, it's not on earnings the day before, the day after. It's really not just during the quarter, but it's really hand-holding to understand that all we spend, my team spends most of our time talking to CIOs, partners,
trying to understand like sales what like vendors private public to basically understand like what's happening is that a qualitative process or you take that data and then you kind of put it into some sort of model the way you kind of think about whether it be the sector or subsector or the yeah it's basically if we're tracking x amount of deals how many have slowed down how many are we seeing massive discounting or no discounting
which vendors look better, which are better. And look, and that speaks to like, if you go back like years ago, it's like the Palantir and some other, or I'm just saying like a lot of our best calls over the decades or whatever, it's that data. It's trying to understand like who is emerging. When me and you have talked about it, like in late 22, like the AI trend with NVIDIA or the hyperscalers. So before earnings, I think it was like a week before, we're like,
Look, because when we got this, we don't know, like when I'm talking to customers, like if it's super negative, that's where it is. If it's...
- Do you get influenced at all by some of your customers, some of the investors that you speak to? - I mean, I think you definitely get, it definitely could influence you, but I think you have to try to look at it unemotionally. And also the thing is too, when you're like a glass half full person, like me, sometimes you have to also make sure that that doesn't influence you because it's very easy to be like, oh, seven of 10 deals got pushed,
but it's no big deal. So I think that's the other thing is that you have to be able to, you have to be able to separate and look going into earnings. We talked about that week before. We're like, look, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I feel going into earnings season, like,
good relative to everything we're seeing from our spending. So everything we saw from like hyperscalers, CapEx, that was one where it's like, even though if you look at names, okay, Microsoft's had a bigger outperformance, but it's almost like my biggest fear when we sat here on the 11th of April was like,
that like Armageddon scenario, like the one, like the real bad. - Well you said it at the time, you said listen, I have been an optimist about tech, you know, for as long as you've been doing it and you know, obviously there's gonna be, you know, peaks and valleys as far as sentiment, it's the way the stocks move, it's the way spending is, all that sort of stuff, cycles and everything like that. And so that underlying, you know, kind of feeling that you've had about the industry that you cover, you know, you've said it, you know, sometimes it can cloud my view, you just said that,
But this was a period, let's just kind of break this down for one second, because I don't think either one of us thought with an S&P at 4,900 that was just at 6,150 that we were going straight to 4,000. The VIX was at 40. Gold was above 3,000. The 10-year yield was at 4.55 or something like that. The dollar index was below 100. I mean, things were literally going haywire, right? So you could...
There's a way in which you could have said, I don't feel comfortable about things and it was broader than the markets. But you did say, I think, into the prints that these companies are likely to be okay. So what did you hear from the guidance? Like, let's take the macro out of it right now because you and I, we don't know what's going to happen. You know what I mean? I don't think that the worst case scenario on the tariffs might be out of the way. I don't think the worst case scenarios for the stock market are.
Okay, like that's my two cents. Now you were just saying- And I've heard you talk about it. All right, so let's talk about what you took away from earnings. Let's focus on Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Google, and Meta. NVIDIA hasn't reported yet. I don't think you and I want to put Tesla in the other category. We'll talk about that later. What did the hyperscalers say to you about what they reported and what their outlook was and obviously the CapEx? The main thing to me is really about use cases. Because I know we've talked about it before. It's like,
if the use cases actually are starting to play out in the enterprise. And you could, like we could argue Palantir, I guess it's super expensive, it's a ridiculous, but what I'm saying is, to me, it's really about the spending trends
Everything we saw from hyperscalers to the software service now Palantir, I kind of view there's a group of let's call it five to seven names. I've used like the best barometers where it's basically like, look, companies, no one's getting off the line. The spend, it's greenlit. I think it was like everything we're seeing from budgets, it's greenlighted because the main thing that we're seeing and you heard about in earnings is that a lot of these enterprise budgets are
you get past a certain point where it's either like yes or no. And once it's yes, it's really a full go. And I think on the AI side, if you look, of course, you are CapEx or Big Tech, right?
But if you look at Hyperskin, you look at some of the Azure numbers and the AWS numbers and the GCP numbers, that fits with all of our survey data. It shows, to me, like software is a safety blanket trade in this market. I mean, that to me— Were you impressed, though, by like—so let's talk about Microsoft and let's talk about AI and, you know, what they were able to bundle into like—
it wasn't that impressive, right? - But see, I view it, it's also relative to the, because I view the Azure acceleration, not just the beat, but the fact that guiding for an acceleration
The fear, if you go back, and it's a big reason Microsoft has kind of been a nothing stock for like the last, it's like, is it just going to continue to decelerate? Like, are you actually going to start to actually see an acceleration? And I think what we saw in terms of, you know, AI driven revenue, and ultimately what we saw in terms of Azure growth and intelligent cloud, which to me, those are really the Brahmins from Microsoft.
That was kind of like check, check, check. Now, does that mean, is that enough to get the stock to 500? No. Is it enough to now actually like stave off that kind of worst case scenario and start to build back like a sort of new narrative? Yes. So that was my view with Microsoft. It wasn't going in and being like, this is a...
- It's a watershed. - Were you surprised the stock gapped up the way it did and held the gap? - The reason I wasn't surprised is that the sentiment institutionally going-- - It's so bad. - How about this, from when I left here to going into that print, it was like a Michael Jackson thriller video. It was that negative, like in terms of on Microsoft. Especially institutionally, I also think institutionally everyone was positioned
either negative sure it was a pretty so so here's about microsoft i mean you know i know you took a really deep dive into this quarter i know that you talked to probably dozens of your clients some were on probably both sides of this thing right and the ones who were negative um on the way in probably didn't change their mind that much like it's my i'd say maybe like 25 of them yeah it
It changed. But I think... So I look at the stock at where it is right now at 440 was exactly where it was when they reported their calendar Q4 three months ago. And there, it gapped down 8%. You know what I mean? And then it kept on going. And so when I go back to that period from three months ago, Amazon sold off from those levels. Google sold... These were highs, right? Yeah.
And so I don't think one quarter changes a whole heck of a lot. - I agree with you. - And I actually think though, for instance, if they don't re-accelerate Azure, if they don't see like an uptake of, you know, co-pilots and all the other crap there, I think the stock's gonna fill in that whole gap and it's gonna be on its way back to 350 bucks or something like that. - To your point, that's why these next two quarters, like if we sit here six months from now, it's either at 500 or 380. - Yeah.
That's why it's very important. Now, I believe we're going to have a few quarters now where you actually see what we've been hoping for for the last 12 months. The acceleration, what we're seeing on some of the hyperscale, the co-pilot activity, because there's been worries about open AI and others, and they're not the only game in town.
So I, I get your point. I just think we've taken a step in that right direction. And it better be like, there better be other steps in the right direction. Right. So, so one thing, you know, Gene Munster was on the pod earlier this week and he said that deep water, his firm had, um, uh,
a little summit, an AI summit, and they had folks from Anthropic and Perplexity, maybe a couple others. And, you know, one of the things he said that surprised him on the use case front, and this is not going to surprise you, well, it didn't surprise him. He just said that, you know, the two major use cases, coding,
and customer service right those are the ones that only two that really focus that that people are you know that are using right now now you could talk about searches ai searches but that's not like a big money maker right now open ai what did they say recently they had um a few hundred million or no four or five hundred million like monthly actives or something like that you know so but
Very few of them are paying for it. And there's no ad revenue attached to it right now. So it's not like a business that you can assign as something like a revenue generator. So what do you think of that? Like, when are we going to see other use cases? Now, obviously, Microsoft and the hyperscalers can monetize the spend. And that's also a Palantirian service. Now, I mean, the one thing I'd say the difference, and to Gene's point, is that...
Hyperscalers, the reason Microsoft is partnering with the Palantir and Oracle is partnering with the Palantir, the reason McDermott and ServiceNow, they've had such success because what's happened is the real enterprise use cases, I'm saying in terms of insurance companies, like a retail, a transportation, a logistics, I'm just giving you some examples of ones that I know, they're not going to Microsoft. They're going to Palantir.
I mean, I could even argue like IBM because of where they play is actually starting to get some... But couldn't you make the case that not a lot of them are going to Palantir? They're going to have $4 billion in revenue. You know what I mean? Like, think about that. Like, it's just like, what sort of contracts are they getting from the enterprise? Half their sales are, you know, 45% or so of the government. You know what I mean? So like...
I don't know. It just seems like a name that... It seems buzzy. It's got a $275 billion market cap. It's got trades at 60, 70 times sales. You know what I mean? I would like to take... Because it's funny. And I've talked... I really respect your opinion. I think you have... Because you don't... You're not just... And this is actually... Sometimes I'd say when I hear people online, where they're like, oh, Nathan the Bat. I actually...
I disagree with that because sometimes people are just bearish just to be bearish. Like, Nate, you being, you know, you have a very high aptitude in terms of tech knowledge. You understand the ecosystem well. So when you're bearish, it's not just to be bearish. And to that point, when it comes to Palantir, I think, like, if you went to a boot camp, right?
I just went into a boot camp in terms of a Palantir boot camp, be like, no, I have no view. You know, they're like 20 yards from us, right? No, exactly. The other side of the wall. So maybe they'll let me into a boot camp. And I actually think if you saw the way that they're able to break down data, their algorithm in terms of just actual use cases, customers that...
I do think you'd have a different view from a technology perspective. You know, like there's a lot of companies like Buzzy, but there's, this is different. I actually think this is one where like they truly, when I'm looking at the next few years and you said to me, who's a company that could be
in that conversation, I know like the top 10 valuable now. I do think Palantir from a technology perspective is one of those. 'Cause look, Dan, I can tell you if I'm tracking 75 to 80 large AI enterprise deals,
So Palantir is in the vast majority, including if they're going to get it or they're definitely about... What size deals generally? I mean, three to five million. And then a lot of them are probably eight figures, like in terms of if you think about over the course of two, three years. So if I felt like I was doing checks and I'm like, where's Palantir? Then I'd agree with you. It's like, okay, it's buzzy, but...
But it is the opposite. In other words, I see them coming up more in terms of strategically where they're coming up. Now, I could argue on the other side, are there competitive threats when it comes to like, what about Snowflake's business model?
Like, what about, like, Manga? Like, when you think about, like, a lot of other players, like, I actually think Palantir has kind of been, it's not just because of Karp, it's like a new kid in the block, but on the enterprise side. By the way, he's been around for 20 years. But he's been around for 20 years, but remember, much more government. Yeah.
focused Western government, not as much enterprise. Like in terms of just going into a typical bank. So they have 500, I just, I went to perplexity. I love just doing this. They have 554 enterprise customers right now. Okay. That's a 42% increase from the prior year and 11% sequential increase from the previous quarter. So if you're telling me three to five, you're saying there's 10 to 15 million, you know, like these are the size of the contracts. I mean. And some of them could be
even when you think about like a pound like when you think about some of these deals that could be 40 50 60 million especially even on some of the government ai deals that's over years that's no of course of course 100 but but i'm saying it's got 3.9 billion dollars in expected sales this year like give me another hundred you know what i mean of these clients you know if it was up 11 sequentially that's 55 right or something like that it was up 40
2% year over year. And a billion dollars, like when you think about US commercial, like the trajectory now, it's like a billion. I just don't know how you get there. I just don't know how this company ever grows into this valuation. Throw $2 billion more on it next year and you know what I mean? Like, so right now... But to your point, that's...
My view is like, it's not just going to stay at this trajectory. In other words, when I look out in the next 12 to 18 months, I'm not going to compare it to like Salesforce in terms of how they grew into valuation, but I believe they're going to have significant step ups in terms of what we see in U.S. commercial. Listen, Dan, in the history of the stock market,
there's never been a company that had, that was profitable, right? That had a revenue base like this, that traded at 70 times sales. It's never happened. I'm, and I'm not, I don't even have that data. I'm telling you that's never happened. No. And you're saying that without a bow tie, without being like a market. Yeah. I'm just saying like, it's, it's,
- Absolutely, without a bow tie, I like that. I see what you did there. You know what I'm saying? So like to me, I think this is the biggest accident waiting to happen in the entire stock market. - But the re, okay. I understand what you're saying in terms of valuation of obviously when stocks get hit, this is one where it's like, you sneeze and it goes from 120. And we saw that especially last time we were together. I just think,
I actually think for the market, the reason it's so important to look what Palantir is doing, I think it's the best example of use cases in terms of AI. And look, I'll be like, next few weeks, I'm in a bunch of Palantir customer events. To me, it's really trying to just...
I'm trying to basically get my arms around like how big could this be? Well, you know what's the thing? So are a lot of your peers, a lot of your fellow analysts go to those events too or no? I mean, obviously some go to a bunch of events. But look, I mean, Palantir is also a name where it's like you can't just – it's not spoon-fed to you. I think actually one of the issues with Palantir has been they're not someone that like –
they have like a big analyst day. - Yeah. Is that coming up or no? - No, but I'm saying you go there with the Peter Millar vest in New York, get the chicken lunch and then all of a sudden they spoon feed you some three, five year growth rate. - So you don't find that particularly useful? - Look, my career has been built. I'll go to some analyst day user conference and a lot of analysts are sitting there with the Peter Millar's this,
I'm usually talking to customers. Yeah, you want to hear from the buyers. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Just for me,
So you and I have talked about this a lot, to somebody on the buy side, to your actual customers, they don't really care what your rating is. Back in the day, they would kind of pressure you, "Oh, why do you still have a buy in this stock?" Blah, blah, blah, blah. And it used to be that upgrades, downgrades could have moved stocks too, right? I think people have longer term time horizons now, especially your customers, right? So there's 28 analysts who cover the stock, okay? I'm just looking at this.
And there are seven that have a buy, 16 have a hold, five have a sell. You are one of those seven. And I will tell you, I don't know the names of any of the other shops that have a buy on it. Well, Bank of America, the analyst at Bank of America has been like a...
Like one of the most well-regarded bulls on it, like Mariana. Okay. Well, then I'm missing that. And they have a buy on it? Yeah, they should have a buy. Most of the other bulge bracket. Oh, very negative. Yeah. Oh, so negative. Do you like that? I mean, so that's where I'm getting away. You're out there. I'm just telling you, I can't find the Bank of America analyst on this list, but if they're not a buy, then you're the...
only guy that i know who has a like a really great following and everything who's got a buy rating i like look it's not like i like to be there is like one of those like i like to be in the situation but not for the sake of it but it's like you know and me and you've talked house for years i do enjoy names where everyone's super negative yeah
you feel like sometimes you've found something that maybe could take time to play out like a Palantir. And institutionally, I think this is a good example of one where the smartest person in the room, like the institutional investor, you know, it's like I'm smarter than retail. This is one where that...
it's kind of gotten burned. It's been the opposite, right? Because like the smartest institutional investors, like I'm not going to look at Palantir, their carb, the whole negative view. And then when the stock goes from bar mitzvah age to 100 and it's part of the S&P 500, as institutional, that's where you're trying to figure out times when you're roaming on the resume. So the thing is that it's been enjoyable on this one because it's like I've told you,
except for Tesla, I've never gotten more negative institutional. - This is it. - Oh, I mean, like on this one, and the hate level is like-- - But see, Karp isn't the sort of guy, he's not a divisive figure the way Elon is, do you know what I'm saying? And he tells a story that actually you can believe. I read a bit of his book that came out, I want to say a few months ago, and he's clearly, you know,
somebody who's been out in front of this space. Some of his co-founders are some of the most brilliant people in technology. They've stuck it out here. You know what I mean? They went public after being around for 20 years. You think about that. In a direct listing. Yeah. Yeah. And the stock went, I think like 31 cents or something. Yeah.
It got killed, but then it was $20 a year ago. Now it's $120. You know what I mean? And to me, I don't care about the price. What I care about is a lot of folks who watch CNBC or online or this or whatever, they're hearing like this stock, this stock, this stock, right? And I've never seen anything like this where I have – I don't know the fundamentals of what you do. I don't talk to the customers. But here's the one thing. The one thing I would – okay.
I would like for you is that if you went to a bootcamp and you came out and you had the same view, hey, and that's what I love about you. It's like, great. But this is one. And how about this? I'm going to work.
- To get you into boot camp. - I would love it. - I want you to see that angle, to actually understand the technology, understand what they're doing, sit with the programmers,
And then to come out and be like, well, you could still think like stock's super expensive. But I just want you to understand what makes them so special. Well, it's fine. So there's a book. It came out earlier this year. It was in February. The Technological Republic, Hard Power, Soft Belief, and the Future of the West. So this was really he and whoever his co-author was, Nicholas Zaminska. And does he work at the company? I can't remember. But he thought later in the space or something like that. And they lay out a vision for...
the way AI is going to be used in a world right now. And Karp is very negative on mod. Like he's not bullish on like the concept of like LLMs, right? He's much more about data. Yeah. So data and, and I get it. And I got the point of this book after like 50 pages, I didn't need to read any more of it. And it was written, I think two years ago, by the way, I think in 2023. And I wanted to go in there and have this like, like,
change my mind about the stock. Do you know what I mean? But I can divorce the technology and where it's going from the stock, you know, and that's to me, I got no problem with Carp or the company or their mission. You know, like, again, I just said, they're in our office. You know, yesterday I was in the...
I was in the elevator coming up and there was these two women who were not engineers. I already talked about it on this pod earlier in the week. You could just tell engineers versus not engineers. And one of them had their, the market had just opened and one of them had their iPhone up with the stock on it. Not a good sign. I'm just saying, that's not a good sign when all the people are working there now are obsessed with the stock price. But actually, I'd say to the opposite. I actually find palatarians, something for someone that's spent a lot of time in that ecosystem,
I actually, from my experience, it's the opposite. I actually find them less focused on things like stock as opposed to so many other companies I've been with.
It's an obsession. So I agree, but I do agree. 25 years ago, it was an obsession for all the tech workers, that sort of thing, right? But I do agree with you that I actually, I always find a barometer my whole career. If I'm with a management team and traveling, we're visiting clients somewhere and for like two days and all they're doing is focusing the stock, the barometer as a bare negative...
I agree 100% with that general brown man. Well, and again, that was purely anecdotal. But again, I'll just, can I have the last word on this one? Yeah, of course. I will go to a boot camp with you if you could sort it out, eh? And I would enjoy going to a boot camp with you. Yeah, and hear what I have to say on the way. I don't have those technical chops, by the way.
by the way, you know what I mean? - But you do have a high, you do have a high aptitude in terms of technology. - Yeah, but I know nothing about coding and engineering or anything like that, so I don't pretend to, I hope I know enough about stocks, but again, it's 70 times sales, growing 20% a year, I just don't know how they ever grow into that valuation. So that's my two cents. All right, Microsoft, you were not surprised by the gap, expectations were really low, sentiment was really bad, you get that big gap. So on the way out of Microsoft,
Where are you right now? You're still like buy, buy, buy? Because it's my view we're now in the inflection moment. Good. All right. And you and I will check back in a few months. Yeah, exactly. And we'll do it again before earnings, hopefully. Let's talk about – we'll do Google last because we want to talk about some of the other stuff. Amazon, AWS, what they're doing –
with AI, investment in Anthropic? Do they end up buying Anthropic? They're kind of left in the cold. Other than AWS, that sort of thing. How did you think about that quarter? I think the AWS number, I mean, to me, it's all like Jassy's and AWS. I mean, I actually think after years of really being behind the eight ball, like they're accelerating. I mean, to me, so much of the story, you could say it's the advertising incremental and obviously everything on e-commerce and margins. I think it's AWS. I mean, to me, that,
from a sum of the parts, that's-- - And where did growth bottom out, I want to say a year ago, like 12, 13% or something like that, and it's re-accelerated to what? - Look, and I believe steady state, you can get back to high teen type growth. And look, I think as this all plays out, 20% plus is something that I think is on the table. As it all plays, look, they're the leader when it comes to hyperscale. I mean, Microsoft's the leader when it comes to enterprise.
But Amazon first mover advantage, the biggest opportunity for them, obviously Anthropix is a key part of it, it's monetization of their install. Do you think Amazon's relationship with Anthropix is... What sort of standing is that on relative to Microsoft and OpenAI? You know what I'm saying? Oh, that Microsoft OpenAI is much more frostier. Amazon Anthropix is...
I mean, that is kind of like a blood brothers. - Do you think though Amazon wants, if they could have had Claude, you know what I mean? Like a large language model that consumers are using, you can kind of squint and say, oh, I can see how that would work within their ecosystem and everything like that. But does that not have focus to them? Are they happy just to have the cloud and let small businesses adopt the technology and benefit that way? - I think they went down that path. I could have, in other words, but I think they really
realize pretty and remember Jassy being an AWS guy and they realize like hey are we going to go left lane right in this they're building a model right they're building a model in terms of the long game but that would be like
Apple's building a chip that eventually, and they're knocking the Nvidia when I'm a senior citizen living in Scottsdale. I mean, the point is that you got to look at things like long-term versus so, but I think they recognize in terms of their business model, this was the smart decision. Right. All right. Let's talk. And again, you're still a buyer of Amazon. And it's my, because, and you own it.
for AWS, you're owning it for the cloud. Because I continue, it's a safety blanket trade in tech. Yeah. And I feel like that is one that was on a relative basis, maybe under-owned to Meta. And yeah, Microsoft was pretty under-owned. All right, let's- And also Amazon too, because of the e-commerce piece with tariffs in there. 100%.
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Meta, give me your 411. I mean, the 411 is just like, to me, it's all about monetization in terms of digital advertising. We're continuing to take all of our data that has been positive from digital advertising. The quarter, I thought, was actually very strong when it came to digital ad. There was some stuff under the hood. No, there was some stuff under the hood. But to me, it's all about, as an AI play in digital advertising, 3.5 billion users that you're basically...
- This is your play. I mean, to really sum it up, that's my view. I mean, obviously you have regulatory, FTC, there's so many different things. I just view it as like that stock has come down significant from its highs. I think investors feel like a lot of it was played out. But to me, if you believe in AI, we are such believers,
This is one of the, from a digital advertising consumer point, it's going to be one of the best ones out there. Okay, so you're still a buyer. The stock went from, I think at its highs in February, it was like $745. It got as low as maybe $490 or something. Here we are right now at $590. So it's still down considerably. And we view it as kind of like up to $650 is aggressively where you own it.
Okay, and that's where it broke out actually in January and had that move where it went up 20 days in a row or something like that, which really set it up to kind of retrace a lot of that one way or another. I'm just going to go off script here for a second. So Pinterest reported Wednesday night. So by the way, just to timestamp this, this is Friday into the close. We're talking right now it's 3.50 in the afternoon. Some of the stuff that Bill Reddy was actually on Fast Money last night with Julia Borson. I saw that, yeah. And he seems to be telling it –
You know, it's funny, I love CEOs like him. You know what I mean? He's not out there being quoted all the time and all this sort of stuff. He's kind of right down the middle a little bit. So how did you feel about what they had to say? Because a lot of their story using AI is not too different than the way Meta talks about it in a way. But they're under-monetizing, and that's the opportunity. I think they're actually an under-appreciated AI. Like,
If there's someone that feels like meta is played out and there's regulatory risk, Pinterest is actually a great way to play it. And actually, in terms of leaders and people that understand the market, I think he's basically in that elite category. And I think they're probably six to nine months away from an inflection. So it's one like, okay, is there inflection today? No.
But do I believe in the next six, nine months there's an inflection there? Yeah. And you look at their core franchise and they continue to sort of be that core. So let me ask you this. Okay. So earnings growth this year expected to be 37%, 19% next year, 15% sales growth. It's probably closer to 20%. Okay. So let me ask you this.
80% gross margins. How is this stock trading at 16 and a half times this year and 14 times next? How is it not just an absolute load up the truck if you think that they can actually better monetize on the way? You know what I mean? Because a lot of the same ways that Meta is doing it, there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to do it. I think it's one like, first of all, institutionally speaking, I think there's a negative bias. There's a view where it's always going to be some...
There's always going to be something, some sort of fly in the ointment in a quarter. I think this is one where this across tech probably is one of the ones that stands out the most in terms of like so much more can go right than wrong. So let me ask you this though. At that valuation, I'm looking at their, like they have $2.6 billion in cash. They have no debt and it's gotten nearly $20 billion. And they probably do M&A too. Yeah. Like, well,
Forget Edelman. I don't know who the hell they'd buy that would move the needle, if you think about it. But why isn't this company on the block? We've always said that they're... Who would buy it? I mean, look, a big strategic... Who could buy it, actually, what it comes down to, right? Is it more who could? Yeah, but also, Khan no longer at the FTC. A lot of people... Even though FTC is obviously... I don't think anything's changed.
Yeah, but we got to see as it all plays out. But I agree with you. Look, and there's a lot of play. And I think also big tech players will try to go down the path. So you could look, I think every big tech player. But that's been a part of you think that they could be a target. They always are. When you look at high premium names that could get acquired because of where they're positioned.
in terms of big tech, Pinterest has always been there. - All right, so here, I'm just gonna keep throwing stuff at you. So Snap, so if Pinterest has a $17 billion enterprise value and Snap has a $14.5 billion enterprise value and they have a ton of debt, okay, they do have cash. - And we're negative on Snap. - Yeah, and that's a company where their gross margins are what, like 45, 50% or something like that? 54%, excuse me. And Meta has 80-some percent or something like that.
- I mean, that's one, like we've always said, it's like, that's a flawed business model. And I get the volatility, like a lot of traders like it into and out of quarters. I view it as kind of like, if it moves higher, it's probably, you know, you view it negatively. But that's one, like, you know-- - Evan never sells, he's got super voting rights and all that sort of stuff. - I just never have viewed that name positively. And I've always felt, you're always like a grenade away.
from just a down 25% quarter. - Yeah. - You know what I mean? - Well, it usually either rises or declines 15% every quarter. - But I almost think it's like, when I think about things, it's like you drink coffee in the morning, you watch sports in the weekend, and it snaps down 25% in a quarter.
Like it's almost like, do it, do it. All good. I love that. All right. So meta, still a buyer, Pinterest you like, and I'm glad we threw that one in there. And now it's good that you brought up the interview because I do agree. He's, he's an elite. Yeah. Right. And, and, and, you know, that's a good example of a guy who came in after a founder CEO, you know what I mean? And has done a nice job, but the stock has not actually done a whole heck of a lot in that, in that time period though.
No, I agree. And it's been more of a laggard. Yeah, I think to your point, it'll be very interesting to see how these remedies come out of some of these FTC and DOJ cases. And these cases have been around for a long time. If they have any teeth to them. Now they're definitely. Yeah, it's coming in here. Let's do Apple.
then Google, the quarter, China, pull forward. Like what was your takeaway on that? Because that stock has done nothing. I think it was down a few percent or four or five percent. I mean, my take is it's, it's,
It's China tariff driven. I mean, that's the one where- China's been bad long before the tariff. But China was better than, if you think about it, like constant currency was basically flat. Last quarter was down 11%. So like relative to like whatever, call it less bad. Actually, that was, it was pretty positive relative to expectations.
- But the lack of visibility-- - What's the lack of visibility? The India pivot has been impressive to say the least. I mean look, if you told me when we sat here April 11th that we'd be sitting here in May and you're like more than 50% would come from India, I'd be like, come on, that's not possible. - Do you believe that though? I mean like how were they able to kind of-- - I mean how these good behind the scenes, it's like look, you got a 90 day reprieve,
whether government, however, you know, behind it, Cook's 10% or maybe 30% politician, 70% CEO. - On both sides, by the way. - On both sides. - He's playing both sides pretty well. - Both in China. And basically, you ramp up in India, likely that's gonna be one of the first big trade deals where it would deescalation. If you're betting on a horse, bet on India. You have Foxconn, we'll give you 90 days
So let me ask you this, though. Do you think China, as they see a company like Apple, who's basically created this entire ecosystem. Second biggest employer in China. Right. So if they start diverting, you know what I mean, offshore away from China, doesn't that like I don't know if that China business ever comes back.
Because the government has the ability to put their thumb on the scale as it relates to consumer preferences and the like. So I'm just curious, does that present a big problem for Apple in the not so distant future? Well, of course, especially relative to when you think Huawei and all that. Yeah, and that's why you talk about Cook, a politician on both sides, because he needs to make sure, yeah, okay, India, but our business, 20% iPhone demand.
is in China. So it's like, it's no different than what like Jensen and Viddy are doing where it's like, hey, we don't want to lose our China business to Huawei.
So this is a very tenuous time for Apple because they're really the beholden of tariffs. But my overall view is like, it's about the install base. It's about services. It's my view that like when you think where the future of AI, so much of that is going to ultimately come through the phone.
Through the phone, but not on the phone. So think about on the edge. I mean, the whole point of Apple intelligence is that they were going to embed this technology within the hardware, right? And right now... Look, Apple intelligence, it's obviously been like a huge disappointment. Yeah.
you know, way to the game. WWDC and, you know, they have to- They're ripping up the script. Once they pushed out indefinitely Apple Intelligence, you had to think iOS, whatever, is 18 or 19 that's coming out in the fall that they were going to preview in June. And that's a month away, by the way. Do you go out? You go out there, right? Okay, you got to give me a text while you're there. You got to think that they literally had to rip the script
What are they going to talk about that's going to be interesting? Look, it's really, it's weighing out the vision for App Store, for iOS.
for the future of AI, but also giving... App store for AI-enabled apps. Because the view is that when you think about how they're really going to monetize, they're a toll collector. In other words, the apps that are going to be built on their app store, and they get, obviously, a cut, and obviously, that's part of the regulatory. So that's a big piece of how they're going to monetize. But when it comes to for developers...
it was a huge disappointment. Everything they basically laid out, minimal amount of that's come through. So,
So this is kind of like, I won't call it a do-over, but you can't mess this up twice. All right, so real quick question, though, on the application layer for iOS, okay? If they don't have something built into the operating system, what are the developers going to create for the App Store? No, they need that. So my point is, at best, this is a free...
fall 2026 thing and you won't see the service revenue until probably you're not going to actually see it until January of 2027. Well, I'd say the best case is that it's something that you'd see by
Wait, fall 25. Because they would... Late this year. Fall 25 into early 26. Something that would be attached to an iPhone 17. You better hope so. All right, let's talk about this because this was a very un-Apple thing. Eddie Cue... The shot across the battery. Okay, so he's under...
He's under oath. He's speaking at this Google antitrust thing. And when I saw those headlines, I was recording something. I was doing one of our live podcasts. And I see that coming across the tape. And it said, Eddie Q. And to be honest, I didn't know that he was testifying. You know what I mean? I was like, this is not Apple.
No, sure.
a huge piece of, like when you think about Apple and their partner is Google, it's search. And he basically is saying like, look, AI could
Basically, I wouldn't say eliminate search, but it would be a huge competitive threat to search where we see AI going. So obviously, when you actually take those remarks the way they are, it really was a huge shot across the ballot, Google, Alphabet, in the midst of an antitrust.
with their biggest partner when it comes to Apple. - All right, so let's step back for a second. - I wouldn't say throwing them under the bus, but-- - All right, this is a really interesting one. Okay, so just to be clear,
Apple gets paid from Google for exclusive search on Safari, on the device, $20 billion a year. Apple has a $400 billion revenue base. $100 billion of that is services, and 20% of that is the Google Play. And it's really high margin. So what Eddie Cue was saying is that we are seeing...
fewer search queries on our Safari device for Google. And they're saying that we're going to start talking to Anthropic, Perplexity. Now go back to WWDC in June when they launched Apple Intelligence. They basically only said OpenAI. And then quietly, maybe they're saying to people like you a week later or whatever, oh, we're open to looking at Gemini. So Gemini is great.
Google's large language model. I remember they almost were going to potentially have a deal with Google that never ended up happening. So it never happened. So there's definitely, I wouldn't say bad blood, but it's not exactly. But the fact that Apple receives $20 billion a year from Google and they don't even mention Gemini because you think about it. I know why they didn't mention it because of
- The antitrust case, right? So they're trying to play both sides of it. So they gotta do everything in their power to keep that Google revenue, but by the same token, they have to make sure that there's not gonna be some crazy remedies that pulls the rug under it. Is that right? - That is the best way to summarize the situation. - But they're in a tough spot. - I mean, tough spot would almost be like an undersell. I mean, they're almost in an impossible spot.
as well as also like their key in terms because remember it's the whole like would they testify in the trial so
- Look, and then for Google, they need Apple because of the 2.4 billion iOS-- - Install base, right. You know, one thing, and this is not me taking a victory lap by any means, 'cause nothing happened, I've been saying Arvind Srinivas, the CEO of Perplexity, came on our pod February of 2024. - He's great, yeah. - He came on Fast Money that time, and I had said prior to that, I said it on our air, this is why somebody introduced him to me, because he heard what we were saying and that sort of thing,
And I said, Apple, because at that point, no one knew. This is February 2024. No one knew anything about Apple intelligence or anything like that. We didn't even know what the hell they were doing. I was like, Apple should make, they were raising money at $2 billion. They should make a knockout bid for this company, $4 billion. That would have been enough. Look, you're preaching to the choir. I mean, the thing is, the biggest frustrating part about Apple is,
is that when it goes like when they could have bought Netflix. I remember you. Perplexity. They bought fucking Beats for $3.2 billion. You know what I'm saying? It was like the dumbest thing you've ever seen in your life. And the reality is like where would Meta be when you think about it? Without Instagram for a billion. Exactly. Yeah. And they did that a week before the idea. And even like OpenAI, even though it's not an actual acquisition per se, Microsoft OpenAI, when you look at what they paid for that. Yeah.
and what they're going to get, it's like a 30-bagger relative. So it's like I think Apple, you were saying like innovators, dilemma, and everything else. I think sometimes like the hubris or maybe the we can do it better than others, no M&A. That's been the Apple way forever. But it's in this situation when it comes to AI,
It's hurt them many times because they could have bought perplexity and then the OpenAI partnership
And basically 90% of what they talked about, they basically had to scrub. There is a sense of irony with that, that they've always wanted to build rather than buy. And how Steve Jobs got back to the company is that they bought next his company. And part of that was bringing the new blood, which was the old blood back into the company. And when I looked at Eddie Q the other day, and I don't mean to, I'm not an ageist or anything like that because I'm getting old myself, but
He's getting old. All those guys that, you know, 20 years ago used to come out and all those big presentations, you know, I mean, you forget in 07, that's when Steve jobs went out on that stage and introduced the iPhone and Q used to go in that Federici. And those guys looked like this young, you know, vibrant. Now they look like old men. And so the idea of doing some of these acquisitions, bringing some new blood in there, you know what I mean? And then Gina and I talked about this early in the week. I mean,
At some point, they're going to have to do this because these are evolutionary, not revolutionary products anymore. Actually, Gene and I have talked about it with each other a lot in terms of this dynamic because obviously he knew his Apple so unbelievable. When you look at what their biggest strategic mistake is, look, when it comes to AI, they've really, again, again-
- Vision Pro was a disaster. They haven't had anything since the AirPods. They have not had a new hit. You could say that they sell 200 million iPhones, how much is it, a year? - Yeah, 225 million. - 225, but they're not growing, you know what I'm saying? And let me tell you something, if these tariffs stick, even if they're 50%,
their market share is going to take a huge hit. And I'll tell you why. Because if all of these new apps that you can get on Android, you know, you get DeepSeek, you can get all this other stuff. You know, why are you going to spend $1,000 on an iPhone when you could have, you know what I mean, a cheaper Samsung or something? Like they run the risk of losing a lot of market share. Tariffs, we've always said, like the two caught in the eye of the storm.
Apple, and then, but it's really NVIDIA too. All right, let's talk really quickly about Google. So one of the things that was interesting when those headlines hit about Eddie Cue is that Google gapped. I mean, it closed down 8% that day. And I think a lot of people
And they put that statement out like that night or in the morning. Yeah, refuting it. And so, you know, and Ben Rietes of Milius was on Fast Money that night. He's existential risk. He was going crazy. And I said my response to him and he was very dismissive about it, which is all the power to him. He's probably forgotten more about Apple than I'll ever know. But I said, it's interesting to me that Apple also sold off.
Okay. It didn't sell off 8%, but it sold off 2% or something like that. And I said, couldn't you think that they're facing their own innovators dilemma too? So, so,
Talk to me about Apple really quickly. We just talked about Apple. Are you a buyer, seller, holder? You're a buyer because of the install base and because of the opportunity. Because they've missed out on so much they can only improve. But to your point, there's a window. Yeah.
And this is the window. You know, you can't keep... Do you worry about valuation 27 times? I don't worry as much about valuation just because I view it as more some of the parts, services, and then the ability and AI. But look, you could trip over your shoelaces once.
can't do it twice and you can't do it three times. I also think at $198, what's interesting to me is that the stock was trading at 193 June 10th, the day of WWDC. And I just think that's interesting because it went up 10% in a straight line after that. All right, let's go to Google now. Existential threat. I disagree. So I, okay, longer term, it's a threat and Google knows that. I disagree in terms of the near term that it's,
this like, you know, sort of this moment that sort of is the dark sort of cloud that ends. I mean, my view is like it will take time. If you look at search, you look at digital advertising, you look even demographically,
But it shows Google, like you can just assume that this is not going to be, it's going to be a threat and they're going to have to ultimately change their business model accordingly. But I don't, do I believe the stock relative to Google cloud?
relative to digital ads, relative to everything should be where it is today. And it was like the risk reward here, I view it as much more upside than downside relative to. All right, let me throw this at you. So if like Monday morning, okay, a headline hits, go download your open AI browser. Okay. And then a week later, you see that it's been downloaded to
250 million times globally. Okay. And, you know, open chat GPT is embedded in that. They've created a UI, you know, so it's a browser and it's also a search engine and answer engine, that sort of thing. Google's fucked.
because they have 65% of global browser market share with Chrome. The only time I am doing Google searches is when I have Chrome up, because it's easier just to put something in there. And then Perplexity is going to have a browser, and they're going to have ad-supported models. That, to me, could make this thing happen much sooner than... No, no, no. That would be, if there was like a Black Swan...
scenario negative outside of like regulatory and doj and everything that would be it okay um so google though you're a buyer here buyer beast on some of the parts 200 hours and sounds like buyer beware it's more of a it's a buyer but i'm not that's not one where like
If I'm walking in my top five names to own, Google's not one of them. It's funny, I had Dan Benton on. You know Dan, legendary tech investor, ran Andorra. He was on with me yesterday, dropped this morning, so check it out in the feed. That's a great interview. Yeah, he's great. He's been a friend for a while. What I like about conversations with a guy like him is he's not running Hedge Fund right now.
he runs, you know, his family office and everything like that. And he's still got a lot of like fabulous, fabulous insights. We talked about a bunch of this. Okay. So Google, you're here. Some of the parts, valuation, it's not going to fall apart. It's not a table pounder. All right. Let's finish with Tesla. Your favorite. I promise you. Well, I mean, listen, you know. Look, it was a, when we were here that day, the thing that stood out to most was like,
Musk, you have to. - That was your message. That was your message. So if someone was listening to our podcast and they were saying that Dan Ives was saying to puke your Tesla and this or whatever,
It's not what you're saying. You were not like actually coming. I was coming at you hard about the fundamentals. Okay. And, but you were finding, you know, kind of like silver linings around it. You said the biggest issue was that he has to leave the government and you were pounding your table on it. All right. So now that that's happened, now that we know how bad Q1 deliveries were, their guidance sucked. We've seen some data about April, nothing.
not good, how are you feeling about the fundamentals? And the idea was that Elon was only gonna spend a day a week. - But that's done. - It doesn't matter. - Regardless of the Wall Street Journal, I mean, the point is his days, the Trump White House are over, in my opinion.
Look, there's heavy lifting ahead. I mean, the reality is like you got to turn things around in China in terms of everything we've seen with BYD. You got to turn Europe, and we've said it, it's probably about 15%, 20% permanent demand destruction in Europe because of- You've gone up from that. I mean, because I want to say a few months ago, you were like 5% or something. Is that fair? Is that right? Am I quoting you correctly? No, and we're saying like the demand destruction in Europe-
more than any region is real because of like from Germany to a lot of the politics and everything else.
Look, my view of Tesla is, A, you have to show autonomy, because it speaks to like Austin Autonomous. What is that, June or late June? June, in June. Do you think there's a chance they push it out? I don't believe... Last year they pushed it out. I know, but a lot of it's going to be ring fends and stuff, but you need to show that this is going to ultimately kick off the autonomous vision. Because, look, 90% of the value to me, I mean, you've talked about it, is...
the autonomous and robotics piece of Tesla. That's going to be a key part of the balance. But like I could see a world where maybe they nail that technology, okay? But it's going to be licensed out to... Like OEMed out? Yeah, because no one wants to own these fleets. Like that's something that no one talks about. Elon knows that. That's why he's like putting out this preposterous idea that you're a consumer and you could put your Model 3 or your Model Y into a fleet.
I was driving, I was in Atlanta last week and I was driving from the airport into town and I know that Waymo has not even deployed yet in Atlanta, but they're getting ready because I drove by a depot and there's a bunch of the Waymos out there and there was charging, there was cleaners, there was a big, you need to have like a workshop in there or whatever. How are you going to get your car to a depot that's going to get charged and it's going to get cleaned and it's going to get all this stuff?
It's just not going to happen. Like, you know, I'm taking the over on all of it. No, I look, I know your view. And look, but we was 240,000 hour cars in four cities. I mean, if you look at the scale and scope of Tesla, the view is like, if you're, if you have the scale where you'll have a few hundred thousand cyber cabs over the next year,
This scale from an optimist perspective that you could ultimately have something that could be multiples of what you produce in terms of actual vehicles today. You need a next gen vehicle to come out. Right. And by the way, they have not done a good job creating next gen vehicle. No. Like think about that. Like they, they, he said he was not going to do the $25,000 car because they wanted to do robo taxi. The robo taxi they showed us had two seats in it.
Two seats in it. Who the hell is going to order a two-seat robo-taxi, right? And so I think they have a real problem. And then if you're going to make 300,000 of these cybercams, where are they going to make them? So that means they're not going to make threes and Ys?
Think about that. So they're already going to do 1.6 million cars probably at best this year. 1.65, 1.7. Okay, fine. But they did 2 million two years ago. No, it's a good one. They did 1.8 last year. They're going to do 1.65 this year. Not good. Look, this was a Cinderella ride for three to four years.
Now it's at a point by the way three to four years prior to 21 because it's been Whatever you want to call it a disaster since the highs in 21 I mean think about it, but but the point is like it is this is kind of I want to like it's the biggest inflection but but like this is a very important six to twelve months for Tesla and Musk to show that like you could turn around the growth in terms of the core business and
autonomous launches and gives you the actual use cases and something that you can now believe there's something across the United States could actually be deployed. And the margin structure stabilizes. I think that's the scenario. The margins, the auto margins were below GM. No, super. I mean, below GM and Ford's. Even though there are, there were some inventory issues, but look, this quarter, as we said, it was a disaster. Now look, 2Q,
it's not going to be too much better, but you basically have a view, and it's our view, like second half of this year, you hit the ultimate time on, and then you start to be on the road to recovery. That's sort of the bullish scenario as it plays out. I think the recovery in EVs hits a wall with the development of RoboTaxi. What's your view of that? I forgot. What's your view of Rivian?
i mean whatever it's going you know what you want my view on ribbian it's it's tesla in 2010. do you understand what i'm saying they got they do have a really nice car anecdotally you talk to people from california who don't like elon they're buying ribbons okay and they'll stick around you know what i mean like i would like to see amazon and the vw yeah like they have that and everything like that um but again it's never gonna be they're making 50 000 cars no it's been disappointing during the supply chain yeah so i i mean on that front um
I don't know. I think your view, being optimistic, makes perfect sense here. I wouldn't be short the stock here. You know what I mean? I think it's going to be a make or break for them. Look, it's also relative to like...
Musk has done the right thing, but now it's like leaders lead. - By the way, on the call in January, the Q4 call, he said something really interesting, 'cause he was getting kind of pounded a little bit about how he spends his time and everything like that. And he said, "My management style is going to where the problems are." Which is to a T what he's doing right now, leaving Doge. - But can that conference call,
- That was the most, I don't wanna say contrived, but that was one where-- - You said don't look here at the EVs, look at Optimus and look at Robotaxi. - But especially look, and we've said it, it's like dude, Trump, I mean, I do believe this took on a life of its own that he never,
i think he's significantly underestimated well i i think that his behavior um actually speaks the opposite way when he's going out there with the chainsaw at cpac and all that i think it just it i i listen i i think those impulses that he has are are really you know they're not great for his personal life and they're not great for his business especially the brand yeah um one last thing on this um if you saw an announcement on a monday morning that tesla is going to buy x
XAI, okay, for let's call it $150 billion. - You mean like the combo of the, and put the holding. - Yeah, you're throwing Twitter and XAI together and whatever they're calling it, X. And so it's got nearly a trillion dollar market cap right now. And it'd be like a related party bullshit transaction. You know what I mean? That sort of thing. Would that make you more bullish about Tesla? - More positive because then my view would be, like if I had to write that note right now, it would basically be like, it becomes more,
of an AI play, and from a technology perspective, it now gives it the ability to integrate that technology becomes even that much more easy. - Well, that makes sense, by the way, because if OpenAI is raising at $300 billion, and you can kind of say that these guys are on their way to that, then that helps justify that multiple. - And then to your point,
As you raise all the points, like delivery is 1.7, I do believe that narrative would change because you'd actually start to view it much more as a disruptive... What would you discount that? What do you think the probability of that is? The probability of that is... I'd say the probability of that happening is not 5%. It's more like...
35%? The chance that that happens in the next...
six to nine months. - All right, so my take would be, I like your probabilities there, if the auto business doesn't start to turn, then he, and let's just say the stock is right here. Let's just say because a lot of the true believers, they listen to Cathie Wood, they listen to all these folks, and they say there's gonna be a $5 trillion market cap company, then they should do it all day long. - That's not, I actually, that is not a ridiculous view. I actually, I agree.
with some of that timing. It's almost like try it, try it. You could see that happen. Let's see. We're going to check back. I really appreciate you being here twice in a month, Dan. No, I love, look, I love all the stuff you do. The pods have been, I think the pods have been on fire. Yeah, I appreciate it. And it's just great for the listeners to watch
whether they agree or disagree, because it gets some of the things out, you know, in terms of diversity. Well, listen, what we're trying to do, we came into this year and we said we wanted to have more diversity of conversations with more people. And so we really appreciate you being here twice again. And hopefully we'll do it again in a month. It's my pleasure. I love these conferences. You know I could do this all day long. Well, you do do it all day long.
But I really enjoy talking with you because they're very insightful and like deep dive discussions that I think really like flesh out a lot of the stuff. I appreciate it. But by the way, and Bill knows this and Amanda, you know, half the people hate me. So, you know what I mean? It's my mic, so I just do it. But also on that point, like apathy is the worst. Also when people hate, a lot of times it's also like they're listening to you because whether they like it or not, you do...
you raise points where I think they're very, very valid and I think you can't just dismiss them. Yeah. Well, by the way, I'm just going to, we were doing pleasantries right now. I appreciate when you were on in April 11th, you were about as raw as I've, you know, no, but I, and I, I don't say that in a derogatory way. I mean, you kind of laid it all out there and you had been doing TV and you'd been doing calls with clients. You said you were just, you got off seven hours ago with a call with $200
clients in Asia you know what I mean like that sort of thing and I think that sort of emotion and those sorts of convictions or challenging your convictions is really important I think we're saying the same thing right totally and that was and I'm and I'm glad to do it with you and I'm glad like that that date happened today happened and it's just it's public we're all on this journey together 100 all right Dan Ives we'll do it again really soon I appreciate it thank you thank you