Home Sales Rise, Investor Purchases Shrink, and ANOTHER Commission Lawsuit!?
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Our home sales finally on the rise, our agent commissions going to change again? And what is declining trends and investor home purchases mean for you that and more on today's show?

Everyone, its dave, welcome to on the market the new real estate news and economic show where we like have a little fun while keeping you in fort today is our headline show, which means I am joined by my colleagues James daynard and catheter chi. Kathy, welcome.

Good to see you. Good to see you.

James. Good to see you as well.

I'm excited to be here.

So the way this works, if you haven't watched this format before, is that each of the panels, myself, James and Kathy, each brought a headline that we think is particularly interesting or important for the greater realestate investing in community to be paying attention to, and then we are going na break down each of these stories to help you make informed investing decisions. So I just demand ate into this, James, what was the headline you brought for today's episode?

First headline and brought just because I feel like it's it's it's been really relative to what we're feel on since the elections over which i'm third happy it's over because as a flipper developer, you know for us, it's all about timing, is about market confidence and be leading up to the election, we saw a slowdown. There was a very minimal activity going on in the market. And I started to get kind of concerning.

Our days on market was stretching. Our intent was stretching. And then up to the election is like the confidence came back.

And so redfin reported pending home sales rise after post election surge in home tours. And according red in the U. S, pending home sales rose twelve point one percent year over year during the four weeks ending november twenty four.

wow. In addition to we saw mortgage applications rise twelve percent week over week in refinance index increase one hundred in nineteen percent, really very here. This is a the refinance decrease three percent from the previous week, but was one hundred and twenty percent higher than the same week one year ago today. Wow.

that's the most surprising to me. Yeah, I think rates are even IT down that I guess, a year ago, there were probably closer to eight. They were really high at the last year.

but still that maybe people locked in when they went down for a moment and they finally got the refinance .

through that. Yeah, that's a good point. Like they locked in, in september and then they closed on the refinance or something.

mark. People who are like maybe maybe this is a low I mean, to go ahead and refinance others were like, i'm just going to wait a little bit longer and see how much lower IT goes because I put almost seven percent. But yeah.

I I was thinking about financing some properties back in some text and I wait this I finally regret IT. So I hopefully i'll come back down a little bit, but this is a really interesting story, and I just want to react because we went off on a tangent there. But basically, there is a really big slow down leading up to the election.

There is just not a lot of activity going on. And I did actually maybe the last version of the show we did headlines we had talked about. There was a survey in twenty five percent of people who said that they are interested in a home. We're going to wait until after the election. So that and itself tells you that there is, you know what what was going on.

But i'm curious, James, do you think now after the election that this is start of the trend? Or is this sort of the pendulum just swing back in the other direction? Because if people are waiting to after the election, maybe this is just kind of like a catch up period where all the people that didn't buy in october and november buying now? Or do you think we're genuinely on a different trajectory now where there might be a trend of more homes sales going forward?

You know, I think it's this market for the last eighteen month. So survey where go IT runs hot, runs cold, runs hot, runs cold. So right now, I think, you know I can't have to just go with what we've been seen the last eighteen months, which is a little bit of a search market.

But you know, if we see another month, then we could start to maybe see consumer companied, you know, trending up because IT IT has nothing do rates because rates are not that great right now. They're really not. But we did see these rates around the same time for last twenty four months.

I mean, these rates of kindness state in the same range, and we've seen appreciated nationwide and we saw buyers still buying. And then IT seemed like with the election, there was just a lot of uncertainty. And what I think people do kind of believe is that the economy was doing fairly well when the this administration was in office prior.

They think that the economy could come back and get a little bit less stale than what we're seeing right now. And that's why people are getting formal and they want to lock in a house because if they think that pricing going up, you know, there's kind of two things that buyers are think about our rates going to go down. They overthink IT and they want to wait out rates and they missed a big chance about thirty ago may or they think that the Marks gonna get formal and they're it's going to be too expensive form. And and I feel like that, that was happening because we had home sitting that we're sitting home bomb market forty five, sixty days with an average of one to two showing the week at most. And we sold every one of those houses.

That's crazy. Active election .

was IT like the day.

like, like the week after, like just all the certain things just got picked up a lot.

The week after he was that we can go in IT was like instantly we started seeing things getting absorbed. And IT was funny. The buyers, they were writing lower offers, and we were staying firm with our numbers, you know, maybe giving a little bit of a credit, maybe one percent, zero percent, very little.

And they were they were just going yet, okay, we're good to go. And they were lock in. I felt like there was this negotiation change at the time.

And you've sold a town house is the only stuff were not moving is kind of this stuff on the more expensive side, I would say the more premium luxury side that's above the median home prize. But we are definitely seen more activity in our showings um in all different Price points. In the cool thing about what we do, we sell homes anywhere between four hundred grand, four million, five million.

And so we can see the real time bio activity and what we've seen as the amount of showings have increased tenfold since the election. Like i'm looking at a house right here and we had a house listed not that long, go in the same area and we are getting one showing a week and we sold IT for twenty five brand off list. Well, since the twenty second we've been listed, we've had sixteen showings on this house, same Price point, same neighbourhood, same exact type of product. That's how much more buyers we've seen in the market.

That's so interesting. Yeah, I guess IT goes to show that is really just so much about sentiment because nothing materially has changed. Like in terms of dollar actual math of buying a house, right? Like rates are still relatively high.

They've come down a little bit and last week that they were still close to seven. And although there's like enthusiasm about a bunch of policies that trump has articulated, no one knows exactly how those are going to a take effect when they're going to take effect. So that hasn't really been happened yet. Do you think it's just people getting excited about the prospect of new policy?

I feel like a lot of times people look at truth, at least at last time he was president said, this is a real estate guy. How we going to want to keep a real estate elevated, you know how we does that, who knows? But it's just kind of this thought like he gets real state he's not going to let IT crash.

Yeah I mean, that makes sense that that that definitely .

tracks and we're seen I mean, the results some change though not in rates, big coins up, stock markets up, people more. And I think some people are going hate. Let's ll in transfer over here and lock in that house now.

But IT has been mind blowing. How many more people have came to the market? Yeah.

you know, bitcoins up. Did you see that guy bought that like banana ducks tape or installation for five dollars to twelve million? It's just a role, an entrepreneur .

yeah let .

you know there's so much money in big point at any given point where people are bags like that yeah anyway, so digression. But all right, cool. Well, thank you for bringing this gives is a really interesting story.

And I think this is one that we definitely need to all keep an iron. Can you just sum IT up for us? Like what what is the main take away from from this article that you brought?

You know, I think the main takeaway, we are seeing consumer confidence, but is just one month and we get to watch for a trend. And we have it's been hard to establish trends the last twelve, eighteen months in what we do. But the thing is, like as a flipper or developer, just remember, don't get trigger happy with cutting Price.

Don't just take one little article and make a reaction, check the data, how many showings are you get in, what's sell in around you, what's the average time that they takes to sell those things and don't cut prize too quickly because there's only new homes that we are thinking about cutting Price, but we keep checking the data. We stayed where we're at and we sold those houses for the less Price. wow. And I would have been a huge difference and profit and income if we would got too nervous. Don't be an nerves.

Nai slashed all the Price.

James has diamond hands. Where would get I were just talking before the show about that movie dub money or that guy, the game stuff story. You're, for example. James.

just keep hold in. Yes, hope we get to take .

a quick break to hear from our sponsors, but stick with us will talk about the latest changes in commission fees and the latest trends and investor .

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Investors, welcome back to on the market. All right. Well, let's to move out to another story. healthy. What headline did you bring?

Well, because I mean, over achiever I brought too. But they are at least related, but they are not onna be a cheery and joyful and diamond fingers is this first one is from CNN, and it's the battle against six percent programs. Es isn't over after a surprise eleven hour court filing.

So realtors have just been hit hard right this last year. They're just being very much attacked. And a lot of real tears are saying, hey, no, our fees were always negotiable even though i'm not sure that's really the case.

I mean, was pretty much like five or six percent and the and the seller pays IT that just kind of how to spend. But the truth is you could fight that if you want in to. Anyway, we all know that that was chAllenged and and the lawsuit happened.

But then, right when I was all to be settled, the department of justice came in and brought some more uncertainty to this world, basically. Now the department of justice is saying, we don't know if we like the settlement agreement, which is that you have to negotiate fees in advance and be in contract, have a broken agreement before showing houses. This was kind of what came out of the settlement.

And now the department of justice is saying, we think that might not be OK either, but the settlements to win the rule. So basically what now realtors are saying is, is another loss you coming? You know.

like you just see .

the first one coming is there are another one saying, now we can have these broken agreements that tell you what the fee is. So there's just a lot of confusion out there.

I think it's a good story to read of your a real estate agent um but really it's the national association of real terms settlement, right? And so much has to do with the fact that many of these broke ages where members of the national association of reelers that kind of set these rules or agreements up to begin with, and people pay money to be a part of our, you know, and and have them represent them. So my second article, it's paul zim y's daily listing outcomes.

This is an agent perspective and his article is zilog takeover of the realest industry, the path to monopoly. So he's kind of looking like, do agents really feel like they need the national association of realtors to represent them anymore because IT hasn't gone so well this year for them, but IT might not next year following their new rules is maybe gonna backfire. So maybe the lows, the new or you know who knows, like just you can put your listings there, you can try to sell there. I don't know. Lot is obviously influx right now.

Yeah, super interesting. And in the next six weeks were actually speaking with a reporter from the new york times SHE has him more reporting about what's been going on behind the scenes? And are we actually don't know exactly what the story as they told us.

They give us the scoop, which was super excited about. So make sure to keep an eye on your feet for that. But I I you know this is interesting coffee, but i'm also I guess i'm not surprised because the way these things work tends to be this.

They chAllenged N, R, and the court struck down and said that the ni can do what they are doing, but it's not the court's job to tell them what they can do. Instead, you like the industry sort of has to work through this. And IT sounds like some of the ideas that they're coming through to work through IT aren't actually any Better, at least according to the department of justice. So maybe IT just take some iterations of people trying to figure out the right new format because they're really up ending what forty years of president that you know that, that the nir has Operating in a specific absolutely.

So you know it's it's tough to be real state agent anyway, with listings down so much and with sales down, volume down, I mean, the industry y's getting hit so hard. And then to add this to IT, I have a lot of compassion for real state agents out there. And paul you breathe article is like, is, is, is this the end of the agent? This is obviously something we bring up here all the time.

And I don't think anyone here, I don't think at the end of the age of people still want representation like you can go buy stocks on your own right or you can get a financial planner to help you pick Better stocks. I think that maybe how it's going to move forward and real stay at, sure, you maybe you just do IT all digitally in the future or you get someone to help you with IT like we have traditionally. I don't know what, James, what do you fast? Do you think the way of the real terms in the past?

No, I don't. You know, I think this is so hide up because is, you know people do. So I hey, why do broke get paid so much? And sometimes I think they are overpaid for what they they're offering on the services.

And and that's up to the consumer to pick what service you want. And just like anything, there's luxury cars and not luxury cars. There is a luxury experience that you could that people want. And at the end of the day, IT depends on what you're looking for, what you're shop and for because I A really weird recent experiences is the weirdest phone call, not the weird phone call. Weirder phone calls by IT, a strange phone call.

I'm so curious because I feel like he was get the weird slow calls all the time, every morning.

Good to your show on team.

We just listen to jim's focus have given to.

yeah, maybe we need to do a youtube series called the, of course, that happened every time yeah, why would that happened? It's something here. I know a tree fall through a house of ours that was closing four days just recently.

That was A A new thing for us. But so we were selling a house in a very highly desirable neighbor. Od, we did a massive innovation on out with killed deal and we listed the property for two point one million.

And we had a multiple offers. Three offers came in on that um that all went above except one and one was using a discount broker or was looking for a deal in those buyers. They wrote in a competitive situation, wrote a below offer Price and we did not even respond to them because we had a too really qualified buyers that were ready to go.

We focused on the people that want to the house because this is seller I want to sell, someone that really want IT and someone this run in underlip doesn't making any sense. They don't really want IT. So they call us panic as we're reviewing offers with each other two, and they change their offer and they increase IT dramatically like by hundreds, thousands of dollars.

And they still had some other continues in their way. And because I don't take these people serious, the other buyers based on the brokers and what the yers are, we said, mutual. I get a fun call the next day from these potential buyers that missed down.

I've never had a buyer call me directly as a seller like this. And I go, why didn't you take your offer? And I like, do you want my honest opinion? I didn't take you serious.

yeah. And I did not. And they were so mad, i've never had people.

You should account us. You want us account. You want us account. And I, my, I don't owe anything. At the end of the day, if they weren't trying to be shifting and they were focused on getting the house rather than trying to get IT a little bit off, they would have maybe got the house and this experience you this is a house is hard to get. Um these things at old twice a year at most they are gonna keep going up in Price.

And so that mistake probably cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars when the next one comes up and those stories will stick. And when people want something that they want, they want to close on IT and they Better higher the right professional, get that deal done. Yeah and I think no matter what, there's always going to be need for that.

Yeah, I great. That's a perfect. For example, I mean, people always question whether agents are worth that i've always used doing.

I think James just shows exactly the implications of potentially cutting corner. It's like anything you cut corners, there's going to be consequences. There's no there's no way to cut corners without you know having some sort of repercussions for that decision.

And for some people that might be worthy for others, it's definitely not one thing I did want to touch on this though, Cathy, before we left though, is this article by paul zobrist talks about the past monopoly and that zoo might become a monopoly. And I just curious what you make this, because to me, IT just seems like it's like potato. Potato, like N R is a monopoly.

Let's be arms, right? Like it's just like moving from one organization to another. At least that's how I see IT is like that.

The whole reason were in the situation is because ni was accused and deeply guilty of anticompetitive practices. And so i'm just curious if you think really will become sort of an monopoly. And if so, does that will that change anything maybe for but like would that change anything for a buyer, seller?

Well, I think I think the D O, J is going to probably go after the low too, if they deem to be and I competitive. But you know, other people can start a zillow. Everybody's talking about the idea that with this nor lawsuit that some some company probably attack, companies going to come out with a simpler way to buy a real estate and silos got a head start, right? So IT, IT certainly could be zero, but IT could be some other company. There's like know you've got lift in uber. I remember lift came out right after and and it's good to have that competition because I do talk to over drivers and lift drivers say which one's Better for you and and then because there's two of them, they have Better employee programs and stuff because are .

competing such a good example. Yeah.

I think it'll be another platform that probably five ten there's probably one hundred platforms right now trying to be created. He was gona win that battle. Yeah it's I like .

and I was gonna disappear like IT might be lessen in power, but the fact that IT just a one exists seems a little maybe, but like I think we're still a few steps away from assuming that's going to happen.

Well, I just think nor is losing power by the moment and I cannot wait for your interview. Oh my god, breaking news here and on the market, you get.

It's so fun and I have no idea what that is. They just said.

happy news ah yeah, I just do know they've been the girl in the room for a long time. And for real estate agents, they have had that lobby as very, very, very strong lobby, which you what would happen to real estate without that lobby? I don't know. I don't know. We shall see there's a lot we can agree on is there's a lot of change in the real stay industry today.

You don't want a good change because the things sometimes these groups get so powerful they forget about that we have to provide service and maybe an arch have focus more on the customer experience, providing good service in how they can enhance the seller buyers experience rather than it's going. This is the way we do IT. If they focus on that, the last probably be fine.

I love that, James, that such good point. It's kind of like, you know, going back to Cathy ride sharing example, it's kind of like when uber and left started coming out rather than the taxes like services are trying to adopt new technology. They were just like fighting a tooth.

And and if they had just like figured out a way to make their own apps or reno technology to use taxes, IT might have worked out pretty differently. Yeah, I think IT kind of feels the same way with N I R, where there's just like, no, this is how it's done where people are still going to keep buying selling houses and people are still going to be making money off of those transactions. Just the format for doing that might need to be modernized a little bit all right time for one last short break, but will get into investor activity and are advised to current investors on the other side.

Byo cell. Hi, very easy to say, but not always so easy to do. For example, high interest rates are hurting the real state market right now. Demand is dropping and Prices in a lot of markets falling even for many of the best assets. So it's no wonder the funder ized flagship fund plans to go on a buying spray, expanding its a billion dollar real state portfolio over the next few months.

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Hey, friends, welcome back to the show. Well, let's move on to our third headline, which I brought for us today. Another red phin article.

So red phin, they've got great reporting. So we we use this a lot, so talk a lot about sill. But thank you, red food, for all your great reporting.

They put out in article that said that investor home purchases plat toe after a pendell c era roller coasters ride. If you you should check this out, I will put a link in the shona. But these charges are pretty crazy.

If you just look at how investor activity has peaked during the pandemic. Normally you know in quote, quote Normal times, I guess let's say that the twenty times we had like fourteen, fifteen percent of all home purchases or for investors that shot up to above twenty percent during the pandemic. Now it's come back down to about sixteen percent.

And so this isn't surprising because it's basically fall in proportionately with all the other activity is going on. We've just talked about how there hasn't been a lot of buying and selling over the last few years. But i'm curious, James and Cathy, if you think we will get back to that era where there was sixteen and eighteen twenty percent investor purchases? Or do you think we're going to go back to sort of a more historical norm? We're about fifteen percent of all home purchasers are from investors. I'll just start there because I have a lot of questions about if and why that happened. So Kathy.

what do you think well, something has to improve for more investors to to want to be investments, right? If if it's negative cash flow, that's that's a tough a tough build as well.

tough. yeah.

And if you know insurance rates keep going up in property taxes and and you mortgage rates and it's hard to make the numbers work in a lot of markets. So I could see why know people I got why why be negative cases? We don't even know for going in appreciation.

There's one negative cache was actually a strategy in california for many years. People do IT because they know they worked money in the long right. But if you don't know um and a lot of people are suggesting that maybe Prices aren't going to rise as quickly in the coming years.

The negative cash isn't as as interesting. And really I don't recommend IT in general. But in the same with slipping unless you you diamond fingers over here, it's hard.

I would be a kind of terrified to, although again, I know people are very successful. We don't have Henry here today, but he's pulling IT off. Yeah but it's not it's not easier. I wouldn't think.

I mean, James, let me ask you that, that has has been relatively the same for you as a flipper now compared to earlier years or harder? Or are you just adapting? I mean, how are you still so busy?

You know IT IT has to do with switching the model, what you're my mind. And you know as investors, there's always imminent ory to buy. Yeah and you you just have to kind of create the business, one that works with what you're seeing.

And so like right now, we're seeing a lot of opportunities in heavy value ad where there's a lot of construction, uh, you know where people kind of avoiding know when you're do a bigger protects, you have got longer debt, you got more expensive debt and you're going into a longer market cycle. You know average month supply right now is getting to a bad of baLanced market is so you've to hang on of these houses longer. And so we're still purchasing a lot of homes.

I bought more homes the last nine months than I did twelve months prior, before that because the math works. Yeah and and you just have to go where where the opportunity is. And I think that really comes down to our investors are going to continue to buy what depends on what products in the market know.

We still are not seen a lot of homes that are fully renovative from a home owner that are selling them right now. There's low inventory, ross, the board. And you know the reason I think we're busy and seattle, there's just a lot of junk in the market.

There's a lot of beat up homes that are for sale where people who need a cash transaction, and that's a lot of the inventory that sitting right now over prize big fixes. And typically, you wait those numbers down, you can buy those. So if we continue to see this kind of elementary where a lot of its not fixed up, then I think investor transactions could increase even more over the next twelve months. IT really just depends on does the inventory lock up or are going to see more houses come to market.

I think there's an argument here both ways, right? Like you could say that things are so unaffordable for the average american that the percentage of homes bought by investors will go up because they'll have the capital and maybe the patients to buy these things. Where is the other argument is like it's so expensive, stock markets do and well, you know like there's other places to put money, like maybe institutional investors will pull back a little bit because they are going to put their money elsewhere.

One thing about that is IT a dug again depends on your strategy. So at real wealth, my people, basically our californians and and god bless you all, love you californians, but we they don't understand how to invest in real estate. We all they've seen is all you buy this thing and after ten years you're going to be a millionaire.

I'll give you example if i've said this before. But I am renting a place for my sister while she's going through chemotherapy. And um the house is like a three million dollar house or paying five thousand dollars a month. Yeah so it's really high rent if you look at that way but not for the seventh copy area but like that's not cash low. So this is my person.

I would want to sit down with the owner of that property and say, you have a three million dollar asset, what else could we do with this IT? Take that salad, ten, thirty one exchange into other markets where they're going to go from five thousand, two twenty thousand a months, you know easily they're a they're going to go from whatever situation they're in to retirement like that. That's been our thing is just kind of educating people that, that equity sitting that dead equity in the property is worth something and just repurpose into a different kind of property somewhere else. You can double, triple, quadruple your cash flow. So while for you know somebody starting out IT might not make sense to go buy a property that only cash flowing five percent or whatever for this particular person is going .

to be a live changer yeah that though I guess this sort of brings back to my point. Now if you already have money and are looking to enjoy the many benefits of real estate, I still think IT totally makes sense, right? yeah.

I am just curious if we're going to see a bounce back in new bis. And like people who are in other chinese and trying to save in know just trying to buy rental property, it's heart. I do this thing every year, the next state of real state investment i've been writing at the last few weeks.

And i'm kindly just curious, like let me just test my theory. I knew maybe you guys can tell me your opinions, like I just don't know. We're going back to this time in the know from twenty and fifteen to twenty twenty two, where I was like pretty easy to get into real estate like prior to the great financial crisis, IT was kind of this niche thing and like I got a lot easier.

But that time when he was easy might actually be the anomaly like that was an unusually good time. And what we're entering in now, I think, is still a good time to invest n real thing i'm still going to keep doing IT, but I think it's more just like the hystErica and hype is not going to be there and it's just going to be more about grinding out the kinds of deals that have worked for generations. IT just might not be as obvious to people who are .

just getting into IT. Well, let's want talk about easy, easy investing was two thousand three to two thousand six because you could anyone could get an unlimited number of loans, investor loans with .

absolutely no credit. easy.

There has been too easy. And that's because of policy IT was government policy saying that needs to be easier to get into real estate. Well, you know, to buy a two, three, four hundred thousand dollar asset.

Should I really be that easy, you know or did you have to work for this? This is um know they're spend this sentiment that everybody should be able to own a home and that's just not true. You have to have two years at least to get a mortgage, two years income proof of income and you so there's steps before that.

But the government still makes IT somewhat easy to get your first home, not investment property, but I can be an investment property with a three percent. F, A, J one, yes, three percent down. And too many people still don't understand, and that you don't need twenty percent down payment, three percent will get in the market.

IT shouldn't be too easy um but I think you've got the education. You can always make IT work. You can always make IT work totally.

I totally agree. I think it's just like that. We're getting a little off topic, but I think it's like it's a mentality shift, right?

I think it's this idea that was true that for a brief period of time, you could invest for like five, three to five years with a decent job and maybe cover your living expenses. And that was awesome. I just don't know if that's true anymore, like the math is really and I still think that's okay. Like for me, I never when I started, I never was like along to retire in three years from real estate. I was like i'm going to take ten to twenty years and this is going to work because it's worked for A A century if you just follow the same and if we're still in that case, you still can make tons of money in real say, you could still short in your career by thirty years if you want to. I just don't know if it's like, hey, jump in right now, quit your job in two years and like .

you will be fine. But IT comes down a great. So there there is always going to be harder times, really easy times, flat times and harder times, right? Like in two thousand eight, pricing is really low and IT was hard to get investing gone.

IT is, I would say I was harder than than IT was today because not only was hard to get access to money, which was the most important thing in real state, but he was also the numbers in work either. Rents were flat, rents were low. AmErica was broke and IT wasn't.

And you are not making cash flow. And you have to get creative to build to buy real estate two thousand eight, nine and ten. And if you you got creative, the reward you are feeling IT today.

And so just like then, we're in a harder time. So you have to look at what do you want to do to create the income. You can short turn, right? You're going to have to Operate more short terreno.

You will make cash low. You IT is a lot of work I don't do IT. I'm about ready to do my first one to make a deal pencil.

Well, it's my first short term rent. We'll see how this goes. And but you have to you have to get thrifty. And if you want to get the game, get thrifty, get some great, put the plan on IT you put the work in, then you get the reward, getting rich in realistic in two to three years. That's unrealistic.

Yeah, I don't. I mean, that was kind of a cool, bigger pockets time and you know just a pocket in time for bigger pockets where, you know, i'd heard these shows that people retiring and a year. And you know what? IT still would be possible, really, if you drove in and you did IT write, you know, you had people like James to mentor you. And and bigger, all these bigger, you know, you could still maybe do IT, but I never taught that. I was like, hey, we've got a twelve .

to fifteen year plant here. Yeah, it's either like full time work or patients like those are your options. Both are good. Like you can either dive in, do IT all be a full time investor like Kenny does, right? He Operates a business like I think Kenny would tell you he is a job um or you can take the cafe or me approach, which is like i'm fine if IT takes ten years like I expected to take that long because as low risk and it's not a lot effort and like i'm totally fine with that.

And I still I just think we're like entering back into this period where that's what's available and that's the Normal thing. That's like what has always been the case for the write people again, to real safe for for decades. And that's good.

I think that's a good thing. alright. This is been a very fun conversation. James and Cathy, thank you both so much.

If you want to connect with any of us and learn more about our thinking about real state, we, of course, put our contact information in the shown notes below. And just two things for our listeners to look out. for.

One, we are going to have this conversation with debris. Cmn, who's going to tell us all about what's going on behind the scenes that N R. So make sure to check your friends for that in the next couple of weeks.

And I started hinted at this thing that I do every year, which is the state of real state investing, is what of a summary of what happened over the previous year, some questions to consider for the following year and some advice on how to get into the market, Operate your portfolios in the coming year. We will be doing to show about that or you can download that for free when IT comes out in january on bigger pockets, stock con. James, Kathy, thanks again, and thank you all so much for listening to this episode of on the market we will see next time.