The Department of Justice V Google Ads: Part 2
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Cause the media and welcome to Better line.

I am enjoyed by Jason kent. Once get the co d, cn will be telling us more about the first week of the department of justice first as google ads. Jason, thank you so much for joining.

Thanks to have me back. Bad thought to be here.

So what's been happening since we lost spoke how .

the first week go is a blur. I mean, it's impressive Operation. I think we talked about how this uh, district is known as the rocket docket and that's how they got from from violent to complaint to actual trial and like a year and a half.

So that has that reputation. In ucap. We saw an action this week. I mean, every day we started at nine am sharp like clock work until six P M. With no three or four seen in your executive testify every day.

And who's .

testified so far three or four x google employees we've heard from we've had cees of all the major at tech companies uh under a sali from index exchange, the magnet and a rubicon um actually now called magness and then um love to hear from we heard two different publishers executives so we can't gone down the list we've had more n expert witness scape science professor from current email and so is this currently the department .

of justice case like it's them then playing their case yeah this is what they call their .

case and chief and they'll take probably about I think two weeks and then google have chance fend.

So what's the thrust of their argument other than they have a monopoly?

Well, you know there are three different markets at work here that that they have a monopoly. And so some of the back and forth is still google trying to break that apart and blr into one single kind two sided market they call IT. But but the trust department is um their complaints is the again that there's three markets.

There's the cell side, there's the added change and then there's the byline. Google in their opening er statement has already try to make them into one market that's a two sided market. Trying to lean into a prior supreme court decision um that involved american express. I I don't think to have much success there. But um once you get past proving that there are three markets there and that they've got monopoly power in them, then it's also a tiny argument that they've used one of them one of those to build up and maintain market power through through bad conduct to um to do that.

So break me down those three parts then and then we can get into the .

a gray sure. Um so the the the publisher side, the sell side, google has the product that life people still know as as D F P which came from the w double acquisition. So that's the publisher and server. And according to the just department's open statement, we've got like ninety one percent of the market share for the publisher side.

And a publisher in this case is .

like a website .

like a website that shows google .

that and exactly. And so that's the server. That's it's kind the sort I guess what call the source of truth we always call IT but it's the it's the add server that says, hey, i've got this ad um and then IT takes care of deciding who wins in ultimately rendering and serving the ad and then actually dealing with all the account in and immensity projections at such a so that that's what's the cell side of the of this auction market as a real time auction market.

And then to go to the other side, you've got on the bright side, um google has their head demand that they have through the ad network that they also have any the just armers arguing to have like eighty seven percent of that market. That's really important because um a lot the arguments are that you couldn't use other products and still have access to that google domain. And so they use that advertising demand of advertisers. I want to spend money in order to ensure that everyone else stays on their supply chain. And then in the middle is the ad exchange, which google are called at ex and and that's the exchange that acts as um the Billy taking bids on uh of the adventures and them.

So it's the place where google sells on google to google.

No is the ads be the what would take the the cell side. So the publisher and server so all the different websites are out there across the web that would take their inventory and say, hey, i've got this ad impression and requesting to make a bit on IT and then google could handle the bit because of its demand. But uh, other parties can come into and bid and and they would decide the highest.

And so how are they using this as a monopoly? And where is the other than being on every single transaction? Are they are they doing anything else to basically intervene and drive up Price?

Well, a couple of main teams that are going on throughout the entire week is that, that addicts, which is the exchange, google takes twenty percent of the revenue and they never had to come off at that Price. And and so like the CEO of like index exchange and these other exchanges, they're out there were test to buy and they charged like half of what google charges, sometimes even as lowest five percent. And because salary, the C E O index exchange that they actually went down to zero and they weren't able to take away business from google. So google able to keep that twenty percent and extract monopoly rents according to one of their own internal forgive emails.

forgive my ignorance. How do they extract? Like is IT that just there's a bunch of bad inventory that google only ally has access to?

It's it's the opposite of IT. It's actually it's the that you can only have access to the demand the i'd spend that google has if you're using a ex so that ad demand won't travel through any other exchange.

And why is that? Is that just .

because it's a decision by google? So yeah so they made the decision to only allow their demand to go through radicals.

So what's stopping people from building their own addicts?

There's other exchanges out there that try to compete with, with addicts, but they're not able to because they can't get access to all the ad demand and that spend is that critical? And everybody wants to stay on, add x and and and google hazen advances, which we can go through because of the way that that Operates.

So advantages.

But you know that I think the biggest one that um what is part of the opening statements is what's now last look, they call you know there was something got first luck, which was really before a real before the options really opened up with heart beating and first looks kind of just it's simplify.

It's basically if you put in that a publisher said, hey, i've got this ad unit and i'm willing to sell IT to anybody and the floor, the lowest Price itself worth five dollars, then google always have the chance to say or take IT. But word even goes into the auction. They could say they had first look and they could to say, i'll take IT for five dollars in a penny, basically before they even put you in the auction. Um and over time, that transitioning into something called last look so that when I started to open up because of their privileged position that google had, they has on the last look where after all the auction took place, they then look at the winning bid and decide if they wanted to beat IT by another .

penny all so they can literally just rig the dice pretty much as they want.

Like I mean, that's the way that and that's the reading in the room. And it's interesting because I think one of the biggest questions always going into this trial was now was originally give me a jury now it's a this judge bancomer. You know can you explain these live high speed trading auctions of ad tech, you know to the average american and they're got a really good job of explain.

I think the judge gets that the people in the room get IT and know. I think last look was one of the Better examples where the justice department and their open statement described IT as I like a classic silent auction, where every every party writes down their bed on the slip of paper. It's in a sealed envelope, and you only get to bid once. And then at the end of the option, google gets to peak into the envelope. See what the highest bit is, say, you know, i'll pay a penny higher for that.

And so twice, once especially.

that essentially what what happens, right? And so they get to pick up wherever they think there is additional value because of the quality .

of the impression. And this is in the tool that lets you let's publish a sell ad space, right?

The is the basically what's called an S S P is the civilized platform that that takes the inventory puts out for options.

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So as as you're finding from my literally a very simple questions, this stuff is pretty complex. Is the judge getting IT?

I think SHE is yeah I mean, there you they're coming up with, I think, simple ways to explain that he seems sharp as attack and she's you fairs can be I think she's runs a quarter room like i've never seen. But the tactical aspects that I think they're going as deep as they really need to. And they had an expert witness in carnegie melon computer science, professor doctor I.

And he did a really good job of of with some visuals of explaining the canada three or four kind of most important ways in which they were, quote, quote, rigging, or allegedly rigging the options. And he can walk through each of us. And IT was, IT was easy to follow.

And what was his testimony?

Exactly what did he get into? You walk through that, that last look and why that was so important as mixing apple that we just talked about, he talked to is something called dynamic revenue sharing, which is a pretty big advantage that google just gave itself in aex. Also where they the way he testified was that google recognized and there's tons of emails that they put up the back this up.

So it's not or maybe past the stage of having to say their allegations because there was evidence going up on screens. But what they they did was you know google takes twenty percent, as I mentioned, of of of the transactions that go through addicts. And so the other eighty percent goes to the publisher. So in simple terms, if if it's a dollar, if it's a dollar transaction, google is going to take twenty cents, the publishers going to take eighty sense.

And what they did was they said, you know, if if we've got this last look and we know that somebody else are going to win this ad at eighty one sense because we're only going to get eighty cents across to the publisher, why do we take our revenue share down off twenty percent to fifteen percent? And so then we went out and eight, five times to go through will win the big. And so in in google's own words, in their own email, they described IT as just another way to exploit that, the fact they had last look.

So we've got this last look. Why don't we come off of our twenty percent share if IT allows us to win the impression? Um and so that's a way to know I didn't actually drive that much more revenue through, but what I did was they gave them a lot more volume and activity, a lot more of the VISA one through their exchange rather than the other competitive exchanges that were out there that make sense IT does.

So you talk about them needing addix to can like forgive me for us to this book, the demand that they have, that's really their secret source. The demand that they can source, why isn't why can't anyone else get that kind of demand? What is that, that stopping them?

Well, IT starts. That's where this is ancient because the cost starts with the search trial that they just won last month, right? And so that remember the the other case over in dc was that google has monopoly power over search text advertising to.

And so theyve got this platform in which advertise are going to buy ads in which they have got monopoly power. And so trying to convince you know a lot of smaller business advertisers out there, small market advertisers to go through another platform is in itself difficult restriction there. And so everybody you everybody spends the money on google already. And so they already come up with that massive advantage .

and more expensive to use other platforms is IT more burden to set up with them.

You know we haven't really got into the the quality of the the bay side platforms. They seem you to be described as relatively comfortable. So it's more a matter having one central you know interface in which you're buying.

So but it's clearly that money is going to coming through from the google side no matter White. Um that's gonna to google's platforms going to go to the wider web. And so they just walking with a massive advantage in advance.

And and so the real the real chAllenge is that, that or the issue is that demand should be able to go to other exchanges, not just to google and and that's what I think google is trying to set up. Its defense is that, that they shouldn't have to connect their demand other platforms like there's no there's no issue. Now get the legal piece of .

the good yeah, even though that seems a perfectly reasonable thing to say for anything like this connecting. So is this suggesting that all good, so do all google properties run through A X like you can't buy advertising on google ads .

without going through radex can't buy snow. So sorry to yeah, I was to have my vision what we're talking, but you can't the advertising demand on the by side on google that has to go through A X, X in order to go to other publishers and all right, yeah, think the same thing you are saying.

So yes, great. And that demand is coming from advertisers as people who want to advertise on different platform. But then but then IT goes through a eggs and then google basically gets to monkey with at the beginning, at the end of IT. It's just a IT feels fairly, fairly crooked. That's the feeling .

when you're sitting in the room and very much does. And there's a lot of no mails from google employees where you can tell they feel like this might be a little cricket, you know. So so there .

was a thing, the verge quoted a particular witness, news scope that seemed quite interesting, who said SHE SHE felt like they were being held hostage by google. I did.

I did. He was. He was really finie laser SHE no longer with news court. She's actually zone SHE SHE get really clear evidence and testimony and um you know SHE SHE was explaining how there was really no choice to use any platform but d fp as the add server and therefore with IT IT comes with all these other obligations. And you know, the one thing that google day that sheep seemed to really not like was there is a point that was important in time where google tend to publishers. You can no longer have laws, Price force on individual exchanges.

So what what does that .

mean essentially? If you're a publisher, if you're a website and you're saying I have this ad that's available and I will allow five different exchanges to put forth the highest bid for.

say, available in like .

space and they're making IT available to, let's say, five different exchange is one of those as addix. But then let's say also p matic and and rubicon and exchange this experience ous. S S, P.

We come and you in for a while. You can actually set a Price floor, essentially the lowest Price. You are willing to sell that banner on the home page.

You could set IT individually based on the exchange. So what publishers were often doing with they were putting a higher Price floor for addict, for google, for addix, for a number of reasons. Um you know in some of those reasons included wine to diversify.

And now all the revenue and spend was coming from google because I could create risk as we see. They also want to manage the quality, the ads because sometimes the ads where is high quality coming through radix. So by having a higher Price point and kind of weeded out some of the garbage.

And so there there are number of reasons at this moment time, google said, you know what you need now need to have a universal Price floor across everyone. Um and that basically gave addix the same, you know the same. And then and I make sure I have the same Price flow as anyone else.

But how do they maintain a Price floor across other platforms? Like how did they just say, if you violate this.

your offer of our ad platform? Well at all. It's because, again, D, F, P, the ad server is also google. So it's the final source of truth yeah. So.

so, so they owe the place where ads and negotiate the place where ads come from and then the server that puts the ads on places that's really that good. That seems .

that's good, right?

Yeah, but that might be a problem for them.

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So whether on the other really cool like publisher witnesses, interesting people so on the publish aside for listeners to saying that the people putting ads up, sorry, they are the ones providing ad inventory.

Yeah you know we heard from um garnett was also he was actually the first witness um good at the big newspaper company um the head of the ad Operations group that was the very first witness on monday um you know he really set up the this some of the basic foundation of the case um so you know I think I was enough really from the police side now we're actually deeper in the weeds of the conduct issues and some of like know the right are going through and of these other games that they played um you know I think the most actually the most interesting one, if I can digress for a second, the the revenue the dynamic revenue sharing where they would come off the twenty percent and drop down.

They actually came out with dynamics revenue sharing too, where they seemed to realize that you know I was hurting their margins, coming down off twenty percent in order to win the the transaction. So decided they would also go higher than twenty percent when they had a high enough bitter at him and that would allow them to recoup that margin. And so they essentially describe IT as a bank um in which they could uh no, as the expert would have said he described him imposing a debt on the publishers or basically google would say, you know what we're going to go off, take less than twenty percent revenue share and where to win an add. But then we're going to have and hold a little debt for you publisher, and we're going take that money back. Later on, a pair shot back.

right? So when they came up, so when they reduce their car to win a bit, they would then take the linder of the cut that they lost and then charge the people they were meant to give money. So the place where I was going.

yes, later, but later on. So maybe they one add goes through at a fifteen percent revenue share that they came down, up twenty percent in order to win that transaction. And then maybe the next time and I went through on that site, they would take twenty four percent of whatever is in order to themselves back.

How did how the of my friends, how the fuck is that really like? What the that's insane. Let's with my right.

mean imposing a debt on publish. I wrote that down in my noble as soon as he etic. I was thinking, yeah, that's what that is. And so if the publisher didn't know that that debt was being imposed on them or if I was unclear or they were being misled, which seems to be the case often, and then you know, let's significant harm to the publishers. It's it's bit we're talking billions of dollars if it's a matter of twenty percent versus eighteen percent, you know coming down off that number.

So other any other homes discussed otherwise, the google actions of harm others. Well.

I am certainly this be hard to the other add exchange to the other ad tech companies to that have a bila compete because of that monopoly. We haven't really seen from the bye yet in terms of know how IT affects the advertisers. We had two different additions. The executives testify um IT was good and I was solid. IT was kind of foundational.

But I I want to really see the just department connect the dots still on how this harmed advertisers because it's been it's fairly clear that google is going to as its defense, saying, you know what, we made a market that, yes, we dominate the byline, the cell side and we control the options, and we do all these funny business games. But we do IT to be more efficient and you know, and our advertising is all happy. And so what's the harm? That's I mean, that's clearly where they're going. And so I think those dots need to be connected a bit.

IT feels like they can't really say that. That's the case though, because the way this harms advertisers is this must raise Prices or at least manipulate them to .

benefit google yeah I mean a that and then know what we don't know to. And I think there there will be wonder to economists that will probably have testified next week. And I think that's the part the deal also land in.

Has anyone google kind of like said anything? Has that have they mentioned to get anyone to flip on the google side?

There was only one of the x employees. I I think all the x employees were somewhat damaging, but only one of them that I think really synthetic. And the case, and he just seemed to have no love for for the, he called the machine he will described, like where he new things were not right.

They were, they were not doing the right thing as a company. And his colleagues would degree, and then they would propose a change, and then they would get denied. They would come back from the machine and the people on the other side, he said that was, overall, what they went to do. He never figured out who was on the other side. He said, he, he, he coming on, I never really knew where that decision was coming from, but I would come back as a as a .

no and so that was .

the yeah yeah, yeah yeah .

so i'm here for it's really funny because all of this is being going on decades. That's what really astonishes me. This isn't even subtlety. What's going on? I haven't really dug, dug too deeply, and I know why. Well, into the discovery and actually have they been providing a bunch of internal so he said there's a bunch of there have been a lot of them.

has been A A lot of new documents and a lot of emails. And i'd say about twenty or thirty are going up on the department site per day. And I think I mentioned um on our opening session, but U S V.

Google ads dot com has all the exhibits and they're all searching at A I do a great job managing that. But you know there's a lot of material. And the other thing that is happening because we talked about on the first show is the really landing, the just much really landing that there is evidence that we're not seen.

And so they've asked a number of the x google employees about having their chats automatically dead after twenty four hours and why they in one of the litigation hold and the judge leaned in several times on that where SHE asked questions of the winner and said, why, you know, when did you get this litigation hold? Why didn't you preserve your chat? What did you understand? And so I think that's also going to hang .

over than the rest of the trial and .

has not been a consistent thing because .

I did I did see a message with friend of the show, proper ga rag van saying, responding to something and saying, i'll wait. This chats on the record, which is so bad.

it's really bad. It's really bad. wow. Yeah, it's it's a consistent theme. I went take IT lightly if I were google and because sheri said that he was, is going affect the credibility of every witness.

And so you've got eyes are we mentioned again in Christmas, sala, who ran the publisher Operations globally, testified this morning bad vender a couple days ago. These are former employees. And so, you know, even though they were, I think, really the imaging as witnesses, I think the judge ross notions are not seen everything, probably so.

And he has to make that inference. And and then on top of that, the I think the first witness every day next week is also a google floome. And monday is monday at ninety m will be neil mohan who was the c of double click when he sold to google.

He was the he brought the deal and and he continued to run IT um for quite some time and I is to see of youtube. So um so I think theyll be a really important witness. How do you think guys me outside that you know the machine.

So right now, the the problem of justice is making their case. How long left do we have of that before google gets to make theirs?

I would have to imagine at least another week to a week and half, and then google will have another week or so probably for their defense. And we will get to closing your arguments by the first week of october.

Very cool. How and how do you think that the department of justice is making their case convincingly?

I think they are yeah. I mean, google strategy in the beginning seem to be confusion. IT was both to try to confuse the market.

That's not three market. They're tried to argue that the display ads are the same as tiktok ads and facebook ads. And they ve they've lost that um and the opening statement that they did, which um I think I got some reporting on this.

I was Carry down who's lead that depends attorney from pole ways. SHE did the open statement for a half an hour and SHE did really tried to sandwich and just me and the time and had to cut on the fly just a lot of technical terms and a lot of jargon from the industry. I think they try to confuse the judge up front. Um SHE got some press because interesting enough, SHE ran out the room as soon as he finished at whatever was ten years on monday SHE made out the room to go because he was also the lead um adviser and coach for um for cover Harris for the debate and so SHE literally SHE opened up on monday and she's leaving the depends and then he also was helping the prep cella so busy woman, yeah.

So I mean, kind of exciting. But also IT doesn't feel like google is particularly well prepared for this. I guess we will see more in their events, but IT doesn't seem like that plan is anything other than let's confuse as much as humanely possible.

Now I mean, I think I think that is my read on to I think it's a good read on and even though they had four years, I think because the the state filed back in twenty and twenty, so that time to work through the defense on this. But I think all of me it's onna come down to A A legal issue.

They're trying to make the case about something that's called refusal to deal, which there's some supreme court present on that, that they tient have to provide a or or do deals with their rivals um but with them an opposite power that they have. I don't think that that's really the that's not the case. It's it's a tying case where they're saying you can have our advertising demand unless you use these other products where we also have an other power, and that's think they'll be enough for the just .

to win also kind of feels like the an argument that you could win much Better if I didn't seem like you were deleting all this stuff.

Exactly right at the last smoke in the room for sure. So just and .

thank you so much for joining us again for this are welcome. People find you.

You can find me at twitters for the easy as Jason or kent K I N T. And I always look for feedback and .

also go to USB google ads dot com. And if any of this was slightly confusing, they have an incredible trial resources, but with a glossary of terms with ad tech explained, as I know listeners, this is a lot, is a lot for me, and i'm steeped in this crap all the time. But you the people running USB, google was actually running that dress. And do you know .

it's a coalition? But there's a group called check my eyes that's taking lead on IT. And I appreciate the other and IT because they're on a phenomenal b.

They really and also genuinely, a lot of people, I would argue this is uncovered in the tech industry just because this is the biggest thing .

happening in tech and there's hundred billion dollars of advertising. And you know that goes through through google. So it's what is for the journalism. I also should mention because it's different than the search trial that the national press, new or times washington post, cna, they were all there on the first day. The wire services were all there.

The dc groups like m lex and capital form there, but also the industry kind of advertising trade ss at week digit business inside the marketing brew and ad exchange. Your world there, there must have been thirty reporters there. Many of them were there the whole week. And there were ten cameras I counted outside the courthouse and so actually was a lot of attention. Not I was wonderful.

which is great. And I think everyone, please go and check out USB google. Lets go check out Jason, and you can check out my various stuff. You're hear in a record clip off. Thank you for listening.

I.

Thank you for listening to Better roof line the editorial um composer of the battle offline theme song is matter sales I you can check out more of his music and audio projects a meta salty dot com M A T T O S O W S K I dot com you can email me are easy at Better off line 点 com or visit Better off line 点 com to find more podcast links and of course my news letter。 I also really recommend you go to chat that was your ed or at to visit discord and go to ask lash Better roof line to check out or read IT. Thank you so much for listening.

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