#75: The Rise of the Tech Bro
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The new way to talk about whose responsible for .

the ills of society is the tech bro got leaked and all these films. J ate a look at the on internet against all things. A I creatives.

as is typical during progress, right? You can go back to every single new technology innovation and look at the news. And this conversation is going on.

People are gonna looking for scapegoats, for figure heads to kind of hold up and tear down as they are sort of dealing with the incredible complexity of innovation. I think some .

people learn how to use that the way they I guess my question for you guys, how do you feel about prompt engineer? It's hard to know how holiday will really feel about IT. Could right now. I feel so once they figure out a more native engineering to the creative process, once that barrier broken down, I think, is when the flagg gates really open.

The test more less. Welcome, welcome, welcome to another episode of more or less.

Hi.

friends are very excited.

See you, always good to see you.

I just spent in our sharpening color pencils and pointing them in rainbow order. So i'm I must .

be bored.

I'm so glad to have the intellectual stimulation of this pod verse, the managing a fourteen person for thanksgiving households. So thank you for that. But I really felt like you we're .

here for you, always here for your adult intellectual stimulation.

I've played poker three times in the last week, which is crazy, and i've won two of the three tournaments.

just if I who won the other .

one and dave won the other one. And we have like a lot of people playing IT wasn't .

just like the two of us have to say I wasn't into poker, but it's fastly becoming, uh, uh, a real interest.

I just think it's a good holiday, like I think you should get the whole family involved, place some real bets, teach the kids like it's such a Hardy game we play .

with our kids. The maverick fiber old puts one in and then takes one more for the bit like he hasn't really .

figured out but he .

but yeah we we should address the elephant where once again, st. Samas, this time as a sam, prepares for his marathon in two weeks, where he is trying to beat three hours, he's really trying to tune up his body, and he has A A very last minute or the pedia appointment for an injury that could make her break this year long go.

Is he gonna make IT? Is he going to make IT to .

the marathon? If he is uninjured, he will crush his goal. His training times are putting him in solid .

well under three hours that he might not make .

IT extensions. what? There are three injuries that I need to pick.

Just what is driving the this goal for sam? What's the deeper meaning behind all of this?

No, he just means to go impact. Uh, okay, he's already thinking to what his next school will be. And I won.

I'll let him announce IT on the pod. N N, he's ready. But ord, but I would have no fear, folks. We have a great episode plan because we ve got some topical news and then we have a special guest who's related to me.

not no.

not or your children, not one of my children, who is going to a bring some hollywood pop culture perspective, among other things. So we have allowed to cover one more thing i'd tell you guys about the last forty eight, eight hours though. We our water broke. No, and our water heater tank.

for you're having a baby.

your water broke. That's not, that's not what you say. I don't think. I think it's your pipes.

Yes, not my life broke. sorry. okay. Yeah is that that cold?

You know .

we're out here in belin's, which is water is very precious as IT is everywhere when we have these collaborate water systems. And we went from having full tanks to empty tanks in a period of like nine hours. And I just have to say IT wasn't very good with all these people in the .

house back to real bOlinas life, you know.

showing and nature. And Martha steward over here, which, with something we should talk about later.

Oh, did you see the dark?

Oh my god. What did you think of the dock? We're close .

to .

make creative, you know, life.

That's your whole thing. Yes, the near times, the near times profiled me in two thousand and thirteen as the millennial merthyr.

yeah, but I didn't want to use the label unless you have a.

you might have a negative connotation. Yeah, this is, we've moved on.

We've moved on for sure. But I have a lot of history .

with .

Martha okd.

SHE doesn't love me because SHE thinks I was like, out to compete with her with britain. Cut IT is this whole saga. And then a bunch people that worked at mars, I came to work at britain, conn, they call me stories about what you said about me. Oh my god.

So when I watch the dog to.

which was very entertaining, IT was automatic zing. A, but b, did you see the part where he was like and then the lady died and I am just so glad she's dead now and I like to the word file came up a lot with people um that have worked yeah and and so I adore her and i'm inspired by her for a lot of reasons and I think she's a sharp edged person. It's not I think that the documents are actually portrait her well, it's not new news, but I don't think a lot of people know that about her. But I I D in some weird in our circles with her.

I don't know. The woman went to prison.

Come on. Yeah, yeah. It's like for insider trading. I wwtp like for .

was for lying about insider trading because they .

couldn't pretty sure budged.

I don't note the documentary was clearly, image was was a major branding moment for her that SHE willed into existence. I mean, SHE turned over like letters and correspondence, and SHE was the only correct son on camera the whole time. Everyone else interviews only got audio, which I thought was so interesting. I'd never seen a documentary that did that.

Probably did that on perfect. No.

i'm sure SHE did. Yeah, she's like i'd do this, but i'm the only face that people are going to see for two hours.

You think anyone in generation will have correspondents in their documentary .

text messages.

Sam would have correspondents in this document.

It's good to say only sam will have correspondence.

Sam have a lot of correspondence. Well, anyway, it's on netflix. Ter, for listeners and viewers who haven't seen that.

And I I mean, what I liked about IT is IT really underscored how he was the O. G. Creator influencer. And I think that's true total. And that was a theme they pushed aggressively.

a good way to think about IT.

Actually, I think it's true. And and you can also .

like it's like what her and refluent .

yeah maybe fashion .

brand don't count.

but rafle was like was like an influencer brand.

You could say that about walmart and say walton was an influence like that you say about porch or rock foer, like back in the day, people named to their brands after themselves. I had to explain this to a lot of my investors when I started britain. So because they thought was so crazy that the the name brit was in the brand, I mean.

like every fashion brand is named after the person.

like how he is a little literally named after harsh. Like so many brands, all of the original brands were named after people. And so I don't actually think he was .

the first influencer.

I think nobody this era in the multi media era, yes, like, but not of products or so .

what about OA? Wasn't Opera the same cohort?

Opera and Martha were in the similar cohort. But Martha did products open, never did products. And so Martha went from content to commerce, and I think that was like one of the first content to commerce brands of the modern generation.

And then you had just a alba who didn't put a name in the title but was like the R I. I know i'm just saying there was like a renison that came around around two thousand and seven and eight. We're like ganeth with gup just got alba. I started britain o shortly after that like those were the only people doing IT when I was starting britain co and I had to like tell industry that other people were doing this too, because IT wasn't a thing that influencers and creators just started.

Companies in that respect was mart a helpful .

and aloe e for you?

And I think that's why I got to her, because we are both doing do IT yourself stuff. And yeah, and I use that analogy a lot.

So I would I left with a lot of respectful and I honestly think I look at all the criticism about female leaders who are cruel or vile or tough like that can be true. It's also true that there are is more upsetting to people when a woman actually way .

than a man.

exact way. So IT doesn't is true .

yeah it's true, deb and IT doesn't mean that SHE isn't of man.

but then they don't get branded the same. They just don't get the same staying on their reputation because of IT or people find other excuses to knock them down that aren't really that, but they are really that. So i'm not saying that she's not all of those things.

And there is like something pretty very refreshing about her owning being those things, which I think SHE kind of did anyway, very, very thought. But we're going to come back about culture, guys. I wanted briefly institute a new segment now that saison here, and it's called the code sam screen shot essays, A K. A.

What the fuck is he talking about? So no, this is really important because I need the decoding, because he wants to talk to me about these things. I but don't .

you publish, I guess you don't publish the, you publish, you published the occasional much more .

thoughtfully.

very rarely now, because sam resist editing to say IT lightly. But for those listeners who aren't fully immersed in this several times a day, several times a week, and we have the train of thought, that becomes a one screen shot. I say he posts on social media done IT for years.

Many are very insightful. They all come out of, I do not all of them once a day seminar or having a conversation. And he goes, that would be a great screen try.

F, A pulls out his phone and starts working on maybe once every other day. But guys, this one really takes the cake. Okay, so this was a one hour ago.

Oh god.

up. I I either really also true .

that there's just like a huge archive and so he of dripping them out, they don't come out in real time.

You know, you can tell them has been on a trip because he'll write thirty to forty on the plane .

and then understand how he does this. So interesting. Read IT.

read IT. From today, A, I note takers like granola are forcing the return of in person part.

Perfect, perfect. This is like a code. This is like a head in puzzle.

I think, yeah. In person party. okay. So these A I note take OK I think A I note takers and I am not familiar with grille, but i'm familiar with like otter.

there's there's like so many of these now that you my new joke is when will the AI note takers out number the number .

of people in a zoo? No, I thought he was actually like doing an an logy like air. No takers are basic. Like a no.

no. I think there's a one called for a we've just never heard of IT.

Okay, so he's saying A I note takers these things that if you're in a meeting they're automatic taking notes, right? Got IT are forcing the return at in person part, okay? He's just using parallel be fancy, but I think he means like of in person. Experiences.

verse, medication.

Okay, great. I didn't read.

need to read in this. So what's the point of that?

I think it's like a return .

to we all want to be to connected .

in real life yeah like people don't want to to be recorded. It's like, why would I want to go to a zoo m meeting with more bots in a than people, right? Like, let's go and have a real meeting so we can interact and hang out people.

Viewers, if you, if you see these things and want to call them out been crazy.

please do. Because I actually liked where I was going with this, which I think that should do. Some screen shot says that are actually like hidden puzzle, like with puzzles, with weird words.

There's a meaning to IT, but we have to like sooths a little bit to figure that out. There's like an easter gg somewhere. We ask them together. I think sam could have A A Taylor brand around him for his screen .

shot essays entire the same ever.

Okay, just doesn't like .

IT just as like please now can .

thanks .

for kind of interrupted when you're having conversation to always becoming a screen, china say but at the same time, a lot of them are interesting.

So yeah, I guess the real joe care just is that IT doesn't even matter if there's an A I note taker in your conversations with sam because everything that you're talking about becomes a screen shot. I say, anyway.

pretty much, pretty much and then I have to be like i'm a signing that article do not right that yet.

Just one question before we move on. Yeah yeah. What is the date night like with you in time, like what IT happens .

at the dinner table? So a lot of discussion about how crypto doing and screen shot as is the two jumps s of poverty. Okay.

that's what I thought. So just not going to make sure it's .

the same is like actually not that interested in my business, which just find basically we proscribe child. I just think sometimes IT takes a village to understand. So speaking of ripped out and sort of my husband we have, you know, I was reflecting on it's been a sort of slow news week.

There has been some news team at the information coming on fundraising deals in the alike, but what did we haven't kind of touch upon, but I get a lot of questions about is like this moment for the tech brows like so to give context here, right? We we've talked about elon ding, advisor to trump. We have talked about this kind of growing group of trump supporters from silicon valley who now have gone on to world incredible influence in this administration.

And the valley is very tribal, and they're always these different tribes. And like one of the tribes, has been like the tech bro, which I don't know. I actually curious what you guys think is even meant by that.

But outside of the valley now, people have a perception, I think, because of iran's ascension and just the sort of his groups of friends on social media and the alike, that sort of like the tech grows. When we look back on this year, it's gonna like a big rise of the tech bro year in. I'm kind of curious what you guys think about that. Like, eh, how you would kinda define this cohorts? And like does that seem like they are notably kind of ascended in ways that are interesting for the industry and may be business more broadly?

I'm curiously example, but I want to start by but maybe frag maintain what I think that people say in the audience when they're thinking to both. So you mainstream people, I think, refer to anyone that works in tech and that is a man as a tech bro, and they think of them as an elon type person. And then you have the inner workings of silicon valley. And and I think we all know who the tech rows are and who they aren't um and silicon valley. And so I think that and britt.

when you say who they are and who you aren't, who who what are the attribute of the intros? Like what is take room in the year?

Yeah I actually don't think this is a clear ontology like the, you know this is we're .

going to go with everyone's definitions breakfast.

Would you be offended if I could do a tack.

bro? No, but I wouldn't be surprised, right? Like at the end of the day, I mean, I guess you have to get into what you think .

my definite I think people would say, dave, in summer tech brows.

Yeah 不是 because .

but what they've .

been in the valley for a long time。 So they're like super inner circle with like everyone in the valley and especially the men in the valley. They probably have like what's upper signal groups would just mostly .

that's a key aspect of these groups.

And they like trade deals a lot and talk about corp, do a on these back channels with each other and or text message with their tech bro friends.

But so too, does that make you a tech bro?

I am in some mixed group.

I would argue that youtube .

or female, me.

i'm in mixed groups of of tech channels and I have a couple of female groups. I don't know why, but women just don't like we talk about crap done, we talk about tech and we passed deals around, but it's not like to the level that the men do. And i'm not sure why. I think there's just maybe more man.

this really is a question of like how much masculinity is part of being a tech bro, right? Like how much in a few google tech roses I just did, right? You also you get a lot of references to the programmable, which was sort of like that male programmer out of college living in .

a flat house yeah, I think that's an old school phrase now no.

no, I think it's been replace. But like, yeah, that's the question, right? If you're I don't think .

crap deal helps the tech, bro. Monica, I feel like like again, back to the mainstream because i'm from texas and so like every time I visit texas, I like get a sense of what the real world is like and how they think of silicon valley. And I think they think of like men driving lamborne as like crypto brows.

And you know, silicon valley, anyone that works in silicon valley in is a man is probably trading stocks, trading cyp to starting companies, investing. And there's like I feel like IT does have like A A slightly negative edge to IT. Yeah and maybe there is maybe because of jealousy. It's like there's like an ego about the tech bro that they don't care about people. They just correct money exam around he'd like what we do.

But yeah no, sam is the closest to attack. I mean, sam is if it's a spectrum of of us, he's like way more tech pro than the rest of us, I would say because I think there's also this there's like a club inss.

And yeah, I think it's .

about and now not to say I think sam is a truth. It's time a lot about them this episode just text me two times a doctor appointment went well. But like the tech brows are really big into like mario racy, as we all know, everyone pro mario's racy. But like the tech bro, some of them, I think, would be blindly anti diversity. Like, sorry, you know, in the sense of many of them.

I would say .

they would point to one or two women in their crew, but they wouldn't value sort of breath for the sake of IT. I don't know why, associate that would tech brows, but I do like a sort of insular, like kind of exclusionary.

While I think my only disclaimer and i'm going to dive talk is that I obviously know a ton of men.

one man talk OK cool. Don't know, we are just taking you up.

yeah. When I just .

gona woman explain this for your day.

my last thing I can say how longer we're going to women plain this until we actually asked for the males .

opinion there there brother tech is listen to this. I like really enjoy working and like hanging out with tech road and me in your circles. I think that I think it's just a phenomenon that like you get coined this way and there is looking insider in this thing about IT maybe you're not aware of from the outside. So I am going to leave at that dave video.

I mean, I think what just happened is a really interesting phenomenon. I'm not exactly sure what tuck bro means, but what I do knows that my feeling of what I just experienced is quite divisive, and that the notion that I don't know, like, I feel like I just listen to a pretty strongly discriminatory arguments about what men are in silicon valley. And that.

to be fair, we were tagged about the stereotype.

yeah.

And I think that this was kicked off by what do people, not what we, but what do people, conger.

that's why I wanted to make sure, you know, I accept you yeah.

no, but that was the conversation. yeah.

But I think what i'm pushing back on is I just don't even think that the stereotype is okay. So it's like if we want to transcend what just happened with this election, then we've got to find new language because I think that trying to make this like over there, the tech row and over here or I don't know the women in silicon valley or something like that, fuck those tech rows, and that the whole kind of thing is incredibly divisive, right?

Like it's it's a stereotype designed to do that, right? Like it's, it's designed to, I think, just like you guys said, imply like a cobi. Ss, you know sa you know, I think we can kind of go down this route with the conversation. I suppose I I could back up a little bit in the less reactionary and more like the definition, uh, focus, right? And I think there is this kind of skepticism that is grown.

You both maybe less inside the valley but more outside the valley around those people who are technical optimists, right um who enjoy talking about technology and building technology and and sort of talk about a future that is Better because of technology, right? And I think there's a is a big scepticism in the country, uh in the world about this right now because technology has had I think in some ways, you know, I think the one that the most obvious social media has had such a dramatic negative impact on society that this stereotype has come radically forward. Over the last, you know, call IT ten years, I think crapo had a similar thing.

Brit, right? Like you, right, to point that out. Crip to had A, A, had a similar grip that happened, right?

The social media grafts was like, everyone, how will get a voice? Because everybody will get a voice in society will be Better off. And you know we we will be in a Better place because of this.

And IT turns out no, actually. People become incredibly addicted um it's incredibly damaging. The mental health is in in more so than mental health is incredibly damaging.

The social health like we know the situation, we're nobody socializing and we ve got a huge problem right? Same thing with clipt of people were convinced to this thing. They got into IT.

They didn't understand to underline the mix of IT in the pandemic. And then the you know inflationary period happen and boom, people lost a lot of money. And so I think you have this like the the idles, the technology has rock upon society. I think IT bottled up into this tech bro stereo. Well.

now it's happening with A I I would say, right? Like even what did you see the thing that happened on sora this week?

Yeah.

exactly what what happened with sorrow?

Oh, like sa got leaked and all these creators and sort of like film a Jason creative people gotta look at IT and got super pissed because .

I was using their stuff.

A I is is just like stealing creativity, know. And like they are like all these tie rates going on around the internet right now about sora N A I. And this backs lash against all things A I and created.

yeah as is typical during progress, right? Like this is this is you can go back to every single new technology innovation and look at the news. Uh, and this conversation was going on, right? And so the new way to talk about who's responsible for the use of society is the tech bro, right? And I actually don't think it's gendered. I think that because the word row gets you know thrown around IT becomes gender. But it's not like that's saying, I think you guys are part of IT like you are part of .

the technology tech brows. Yeah, most people say tech grows and techs.

But I also to think that the little discriminatory oris that will come up with a Better we .

could get into this sort of masculine and feminine and this whole thing that's going on in society right now. But I think that's like a somewhat different conversation about, like what is the future vision of feminism? You know, like I think a feminism like the one that talks negatively about men all of the time and uses stereotypes to brand men is not going to end well for the future, right? Like we have to find a way that we can like like each other and and champion each other and you know both respect masculine and and feminine and have a good polarity between the two. Like there has to be a new narrative that goes from here.

I mean, I think is a .

very I think that's like that's a big question to me.

I is a very compelling ling point of like why the stereotype doesn't serve the industry or business going forward. To be clear, again, we were talking about a stereotype that I think does .

exist plenty of women in positions of power over incredibly powerful systems. You know like you is like, sure. No.

no, I think and I think you're right that IT does not there's a gender component, but that may not even be oh, hello, we're going to finish this point and then we're introduced our guest. You just dove write into a brother at vaso. So welcome, we're talking about well, let me actually pausing them properly introduced you and then finish my point, as we said, steamed more or less listeners.

I am thrilled to introduce you all, I think, for the first time to my Younger brother, matt vo, who is a filmmaker, a writer and innovator, has got an amazing studio in hollywood where what we could haven't talk a little bit about IT and just happens to um be staying with me for thanksgiving and we needed to fourth. So matt, welcome. How was the tennis match? Well.

yeah, good to .

have you match time. I'm exhausted. Yeah yeah big avid listener every week.

So I love IT that's like .

the uh you know he's always giving great feedback and ideas and you're like, you're like a wizard of oz. You behind the show.

you O G animation yeah to this part.

So yes, I did. Which being they still have the I still have the theme song stuck in my head at all times.

So it's an area where m on purpose. Yeah.

yeah. Well, matt, we brought you on. So we bright you on to do an enhances pop culture corner review from hollywood because no one I know and with no disrespect for present company, has more of a pulse on.

I would hope that .

he on p culture, and specially in terms of film and television and all of that. So that is what we do. We need to finish.

I have the fewest kids, so I have the most .

time that we need to finish a discussion around the tech bro, because I posited that this has been, as some seen, a sort of years as ascension for the tech bro, and in explaining the stereotype, was rightly accused of women splaining today. Morin, before we let him speak, dave, intelligently, as he want to do, pointed out that this is not a stereotype that serves anyone, and this is, and perpetuating IT is destructive. And so I think we just need to end this statement by what comes next.

I for here a year from now, and the non tech world, like what do how do we hope that the conversation has progressed sed in whether IT will, I think, is different? Because to your point, day of people are going to be looking for escape goats, for figure heads, for for people to kind of hold up and tear down as they are sort of dealing with the incredible complexity of innovation and all that kind of stuff, perhaps very much in the next year. But what's Better or mean not that implies that this is good, which I don't think IT is when .

I was jumping off, was, I think a more unified vision, right? Like you can't have uh, a feminism that doesn't right, you know doesn't respect masculine ity, right? Like you have to have a unified vision for masculine and feminine baLance, right? All of the great, for example, all of the great eastern philosophers, right?

Like have this idea of union Young and the idea of the the the harmony and baLance, right? And this notion that we can have a conversation about both and the baLance between the two, to me, has to be the vision of the future, can't be this battle between the two sides, right? Like you have to have a north pole in a south pole magnet to to have polarity, right? And so a lot of the conversation has been single sided, really sense the sixties.

And you know what's what happened in our generation, like in the twenty tens? You mean some of you lived in or near broke? Lin, some of you lived near near the mission.

You know you ended up with this situation where men and women looked a lot like each other. Um everybody was wearing the same clothes. You know men, we're trying to be more feminine.

Women were trying to be more masculine. And we had real problems with this narrative, right? And I think that's kind of culminated in the cultural battles of this year and a lot ways. And my hope is that we can find the a way uh, you know shift from like arguing and dividing each other and trying to dislike get back into like respecting that which makes us different and great you know um which I think is the uh uh uh a different and Better vision of diversity than this one of just kind of battling like with the month of types of things that I know that's one way to look at IT.

I guess the other thing I would say, just as I would throw to brit you know britain working brits been working deep in the middle of the venture capital industry, which I mean, it's not even really this is like a shocking thing to say. But like, you know what is IT even as of like a few years ago, less than five percent of the people working in the industry were women, right? And so great you're like working among the men in all of these like everything you guys referenced while I wasn't talking was insider signal groups and WhatsApp groups and back channels and all this stuff.

It's like right in the middle of that, I watch IT every day. And there are also a lot of other great women, you know, like I think if you know work in color and many others that are deep in middle of this all. And i'm doing great work, right? And so you're making IT work somehow.

And I would sort of throw to you and ask you like what the vision should be. You know, given your experience, I could sit here in man's play in all day. But you know, I think i'm curious your .

thoughts yeah and then we can get to, I know our guest and I don't know, I think I think i've long tried to just be where the conversation is and i'm not afraid to be the only woman in a group you I remember even going to south by south western like two thousand seven.

And then we have these like jam sessions that late at night there was like all men and me is the one girl like up later to I am talking about tech ideas and was like Kevin to stream G. V. And like josh met, just like so many great people.

And I think not to think of yourself as being the outsider, and just to know that you have a place there. So I think I think there's a lot of IT that for a woman that's a really I just about in our confidence and and and not using the outsider mentality. And funny enough, here's a good subway ready. Yeah just want to see wicked, which is really outside our story you know of a was more .

marly SHE didn't IT in not .

not said he's with me here and and it's like how do you how do you build the confidence to find your place and to be different with everyone else knowing that you all have a lot of similarities, ties um at the foundation so maybe I will leave IT at that.

There's also a one last thing to throw thing .

that I think .

there's another side to this just because you ask a question about the rise of the of the tech bro.

And and and I think that if we focus on on the words rise of rather than tech pro for a second, I think there's another thing going on, which is I think that tech for many years, unlike hollywood, which is also a good segway, really try to stay out of politics kind of state as particularly when you look at like just use saver tis co as an example, right? Like other than a few key players in the sample to scope ecosystem like tech largely tried to stay out of the political thing. Know we sort of thought as not, our role in this goes run by a lot of different constituencies.

And you should, I should stay, stay that way. AmErica was a lot like that, too. And this year, in particular, in the last couple of years, I think what we also saw. Was tech really beginning to embrace its role? And it's, I guess, starcher as a major driver in the both local sort of the era economy and the national economy and becoming like a meaningful part of the conversation and just really just fully embracing that conversation in a way the hadn't happened before.

So I think that's the other thing going on here is that tech really is embracing its role as an important voice at the table and kind of flexing its muscle in the kind of technical optimists kind of way we tend, uh, speak to each other, right? And I think that I think does pull out that monitor a lot when people want to slow IT down, right? I think they they use that Monica to try to temper that a little bit so that the other voices on the other side get their their share whatever. Um I think that's the other thing going on with this with this rise is just an embracing of of the power.

Yes, I just think we have to .

stay um the .

values of of whom you can call IT whatever. There are some steak types that are not useful, but when you say the word values day like that just struck me because I think there are some shared values that are prioritized and some shared values that are d prioritized from a lot of these people. And so the bigger the seat at the table, IT, is why some people are nervous.

It's why some people are excited. I mean, my profession is example of a profession that to play to the stereotype that isn't that useful. One of the attributes of this code is they think the press fake news, right? They tend to not think professional journalists have a own society. They think they lie shown and so forth, right?

And that's like.

that's universe. No, it's not. But IT I got I mean, it's grow and pretty quickly well.

but I mean, I don't think it's herrick, I don't think it's I think I could push on you and say like just there's probably plenty of people in journalism that you don't you know you don't think everybody's doing the the best job, right? And there are people who are have agendas that are questionable and these kinds of and or just purely incentives that are questionable.

right? There are people who .

are part of a really unique physic where you can drive the internal conversation around this um in silicon valley, in away, almost no one else can, right, because you've got the right incentive in the right voice and you guys do a good job at trying to to be that .

also and we really shouldn't ve on. But like that is so suit something I hear a lot from, and we could just call them industry leaders. We don't even have to yes, we can call industry leaders in tech right now is you know, I bring up this, they point out that they're bad journalists, but they're also saying, like journalists should have to reveal their sources or go to jail, right? Like so in, yes, they're bad journalists, they're bad doctors, bad musicians, right but like there's a major, major swing in sentiment around this topic, which I see but but so many others and and that like I guess ask the question theyve like how much a more unifying message and stead of values like um is held by these who are sending because I I actually don't I see them if anything, is creating more like polar ization IT in then unification so so I think .

that I think that's the moment, right? Like I would argue that the thing you're talking about, which is people's mistrust, these types of things, is largely driven by incentives right in the way that people have to right headlines and stories and make videos, which gets the clicks, which gets the money, right. Like it's all this W W E.

Politics is going on right now where you have to either be a heal or face, and there is not very many faces. And so most people choose to be a hill. And to be a hill, you, you know, you, you basically, you trying to get booze, you lie, you cheap, you steal, you know, you sort of, you do the most divisive thing because IT works, right?

Like that's the that's the algorithm that drives the world right now. And so we're kind of all up against that. I think that kind of a different thing from, I think the more numerous point that i'm hearing from you that I kind of think is interesting is like what are the values and how do we push on the ones that don't work? And I think in the past, IT was always like investigative journalism.

I've been watching this show on H. B. O. Called tokyo vice, which is about journalists in tokyo. And it's really awesome. I think you'd love the journalism aspect of IT. And if they they constantly talk about how with truth they can change the world, right? Like and they talk about changing things for the Better through truth.

And I think that's like typically that's been you know doing grate journalism, shining a light, making things transparent where IT wasn't before, that could bring up questions around values that you know needed to be discussed in a society and then you could perhaps evolve, right? And so to some extent, I think that's one of things why I love doing this pod as we try to stay focused on the internal part of silk valley, right? And and maybe it's this question.

Should we should do IT on another pot with a great test or something where we look at the values and what percentage of them are, you know, right? And then what are the twenty percent or whatever that we really need to improve? Because those there have ascended in erotic, the whatever the White house level. Now, like, you're right, that's art, sort of that rocket art launched right here. And so what's what's the next iteration is something that I think is a really interesting thing that continues .

to talk about yeah to be continued for sure that we could ask you .

so many questions, including first of all, I I like I drop the .

middle in conversation. What is your reaction? Is this like, is this like a alien speak where tech people think, do you think we're on to some make care?

No, my first reaction, I think so much more thought and stands not.

I already spent the first forty five minutes sliming.

Everyone gets time to talk. No, good. No, 不， 不是。

Come back, please come.

Okay, fair and up, so that you are in the epicenter of hollywood and really at the intersection of not just keeping track of all the cool things coming out, but also a creator yourself. Can you like first questions? Like what's the bib? What's the polls? Is this a time where like I mean, we saw from the outside where I am dave and bread lesson and more plugged in you, there is a wave of concern around AI that was sort of a storm cloud. There's like the big business storm clouds, but like what what's the vibe.

right?

Here's the vibe explained in two different ways. The first, first way explaining IT is that everything is horrible and .

everybody .

is scared of change. okay. Didn't here I expressed saying survived twenty five that was going around this sort of talking about some of the context being um the writer strike last year, leaving every with what's happening with consolidation in this general sense that there were six hundred and fifty T V shows that were Green late last year. Now there is maybe half. So on the one hand there is of a light feeling of panic .

that the deals that were .

valid went from six to hundred or and as a result of that, and I think because there is a human psychological thing where you go, well, six, fifty must have been the norm, opposed to the top of the bubble in for any individual writer or creator or for actor, is hard to understand where you fit into that. So at all, IT feels like is the bottom is just dropping out from underneath you.

Opposed to, I think, another way to think about what's happening. And this is how I think about IT, is that I think hollywood is starting to realize that they should not be competing for people's attention. They should be competing for people's imagination. So then, if you, and this is how I would, someone, maybe what's been happening in the last ten years, which is like if you want someone's attention.

this is the best way .

to get somebody's attention vert or just the any right instagram apps, like if you wanted get somebody y's time yeah yeah but and I think when I look at the way that the various things mean quick, did you guys see .

the information story that tiktok is launching? quilly?

No way.

They're doing the safe thing. It's working wild. China, so they're to bring IT here.

God blasts. They'll probably figure that out. But anyway, 看 你们， well.

they might at, well, they might do IT. But I think what i've noticed and I think because of the uh, downward pressure, surprised, because of production connection, I think people are realizing that they should not be trying to make things that people like. They need to be making things that people love. And I like that, really thinks up with a lot of the things that for you guys talk about. IT makes me think of on the rise of live experiences, the whole like summer tailor, the youtube craters you guys fall, the live experiences with the track guys.

yeah, we were so smart. We're all not like, ah the mark .

rober I love you.

These are all things of people at that so you think the other .

thing but I mean also goes to be bringing up wicked, right like that everything you're saying to me seeing wicked this week and then britain watched this peace, uh, uh, architectural digest, youtube, where they talked about the sets and how they built them. And they literally planted nine million two lips in order to film.

No, C, G, I, that was all real. The two.

And my favorite quote from the guy was, I believe C. G. I should be used to remove things, not to add them and I really like that. And you know the set they built was like not just the two lips that the actual set .

for shes the school and then .

um the the real city like these were like the scale of these sets were like on the scale of like vegas casino is like this. There was like an unbelievable scale.

It's amazing.

And then they filmed IT live, right? And so I think there's there's a lot of interestingness in exactly what you're talking about that's happening in the theater as we speak, right? Um it's like a totally different way of doing things.

but is that imagination because it's also recycling I P to the and degree. I mean, not only they doing that, they are making a two partner out of, I mean, they're literally .

milking and .

totally .

I think you're gonna do IT if you've built the casino. Yeah yeah go .

all the best experience. You know, I think about going to disney land last year with you address in your oldest sun where you real, when you walk from disney, you realize paramount t plus doesn't have this right, its properties experiences that people don't only think about what they're watching IT, they think about IT after.

So it's not necessarily it's a different way of thinking about like you know the by vacation between there's only five hundred million dollar movies and one million dollar movies. That's not really maybe the way to think about IT is are you creep the entertainment job is to delight and captivate and to create you know to tell stories that that connect people and can imagine uh called imagination. It's not just to make stuff that people will elderly flip through, you know I mean, like that is there's no the economics of that no longer exists.

There's pressure now to say IT doesn't mean everything needs to be six million two lips, but IT does mean that when those sort of experiences are appreciated and IT does beg the question. And I think this is what the creative economy is really well as those are also experiences that people love very deeply. So it's a good time if you're a crater of any kind, if you are passionate. I think IT has never been a Better time to build a brand around that passion. If you are sort of in the the market for building mid tear things that people don't really care about, and I think it's a little met.

you want to talk about any of your worker is at top secret.

Well, I think what i've working.

I can kids, what are working on is that I have had experiences one foot in the traditional world and the technical world, but right now i've developed a technology where we film actors and we turn their uh performance into uh to d animation in real time call. So we are hopefully on the one hand, trying to a create high quality, low cost productions. But at the other time, we are aesthetic is very disney, very saturday morning cartoon.

So we're trying to create stories um that people really love, that we get a low cost way of creating saffy movies and general movies. So we're hoping to exist in the spot where if budget had the if production, if supplies, contracting budget are going to have to come way down. And we are really are hoping to write a new wave of independent television production, which in existed there's indie film, but there hasn't been a way necessarily financing your own narrative video content and distributing IT. But now finally, there is more interest in um whether it's doing international presales um for your series and um being able to distribute yourself directly to streams because I think the studios themselves are getting squeeze this .

want to go as inder as possible, man.

I this question of like what is a studio? Like six years ago I sold the T, V show, my first big T V show to Warner brothers. And I this question of like what is an actual studio?

I knew and i've worked in the issue for fifteen years and I knew what water brothers was, where the west way, where they have the west, we felt that night. But I just like, I know what to product. I knew what, I knew what a network was, they distribute that.

I knew what a production company was, and they are the people who actually make IT. And this question of like what what is studio force the studio doesn't physically distribute. Now of course, vertical integration has blue, red, all those things in a really lovely way.

But at the time, and this was six years ago, so this is right before um H B O max launched and right before they were like this math and vertical innovation dreaming. But so basically what I could figure out that the studios were just piles of money that made deals overall deals with producers and then they were developed on T, V shows, in this case, and try and sell dom to streamers. And I realized the studios didn't really do anything.

Why weren't the producers going directly to the the networks for distribution? And I think that kind of collapse the senate, like net dead flix now access the studio and makes these big deals apple, apple and then now, uh obviously like one brothers has a dreamer and a all in their collapsing. But there's just a question now about who's really necessary for but and you know what is IT take to make this content? What is IT not take? And so A I, i'm not so worried about A I in the sense that still very, very hard to make stuff.

And I think that the condenser of the creative process is going to be around cutting around some of the middle men and women that take place sort of in the medal. That is kind of sad. But I had a very.

that is a great point.

So what say the the best part of the world brothers was that you can you can walk around the westling that if you if you're fast enough.

you friend said that's by far cooler than the west and the .

france yeah well the france that is actually preserved as like yeah the museum experience I actually .

feel like you guys we're probably watching exactly the same TV shows you too and I can .

get and the back to the future said.

yeah yeah yeah yeah yes and .

starts from, oh, that was watching .

that so that britt earlier brought up the sora in burlier. Have you been following this?

I have not .

think that happened yesterday or today.

Maybe bad do you .

wanted describe IT? yeah. And again, I don't have exact details other than I store a got leaked is not out yet.

This is open A A I video generation.

not sora. Something related to sora sora. Incredibly complicated people .

in the creative film community got their hands on some pieces of store, got to see like really under the hood. And the result was they were pissed. They were like, this is not going to be, this is not going to good for us, for creatives like, no.

I assume .

I think so. I think that was why. And so I think I just threw people into a panic. And now we have, like the uprising of the artist being upset at the technologist, as we always have to dais point earlier. But do you see a world where the two end up pork and harmony? Or do you think this is going to be the next five years of sort of the artist versus the technologies?

I think that will work in harmony for sure. I think smart people will learn how do you use that the way they want to. But I guess my question, you guys, how do you feel about prompt engineering as people that have like design backgrounds as well as, you know, like techno backgrounds?

The thing that I always serves me is that, like, I don't like to struggle with prompt you when you're trying to think of an idea, express IT. I IT seems more frustrating to struggle in like a little text box and IT is to do IT in photos. Yes, you don't really mean. So I I always wonder, like how to filmmakers or artist, the artist feel about that's the most frustrating part of the eyes.

Well, our answer to that is that we don't think i'm speaking for you and me and offline ve. We don't think the U I of AI is the right one right now and that we're still in the .

like early, early days.

It's right for some things, but that the you know mad i'll tell you it's funny you bring up like i've been writing this APP um i've been building this APP for myself for the release .

to the public. I will tell you .

that I I was actually just serving all of the prompt engineering tools. There's a one of them for more advanced sort of almost like get hub management of prompts amongst the team so that everybody can work on the prompts and make them Better and Better and Better.

And IT IT just became, you know what i'm working on, prot engineering is a fine thing to be working on, but in the case of visual r and you know video story telling and all these kinds of things, like it's a very real question as to what the the the right you I is. And I don't think we've got to even remotely we figured out you and you know, for the most part, it's like, let's just put a prompt on top of everything has been the the new way to solve this problem. But it's clear that there has to be visual interfaces that are almost like emergent in the tool for something that we just don't really have yet. And that's that's going to be a big part of the next way.

I do recall, I am slightly embarrass to admit I don't read every single thing the information publishers because I get busy, but I have not read this year. But few days ago, we ran in our AI news letter is the end of prompt engineering here. So that might be interesting to you folks. And I will also read IT that one slip through the cracks.

You can put that on your book. mark. Listen to.

I don't think the end is here and ranging LLM is the thing gonna a thing for a very long time. But I think the way that we do IT, there is gonna lot of U I. And then I think the whole agented thing is really .

what that really favorite word I yeah it's .

everybody's least favor word but it's a stereotype or whatever you want to call IT for trying to figure out how to rule these things, you know um or rangle swarms of these things, you know and I think that everyone's talking about the same thing, which is how do I work with this thing in my creative workflow for the output that I want to achieve and yeah, that's not always the same for every type of you know.

If you're writing doing software engineering well, working in english is fantastic. If you're doing you know to the animation might be awful, right? Um and we don't have a good device for that and something got to go figure that out. And I think actually not enough people are focused on U I right now.

How do you get us some prompt engineering? You really have to pot.

It's hard to know how hollywood feel about that right now. It's so I think of once they gure a more native prompt engineering to the creative process, that's when I think we're like, oh, know how travellin is. It's gonna because right now this feels like no one people would rather be doing the thing than thinking about how to explain to do the thing. But you know, one set barriers broken down, I think, is when the flood gates really open.

Yeah okay, map before we live like just like in this moment, what a handful of recommendations you'd have for shows, movies, live experiences. I mean, you're just such a student of everything happening.

Now I shall have prepared for this.

I know, but like people have a holiday coming up, you can be current, right? I know I was I don't say mowana to i'm very excited as well, but we we is probably not on your list as a currently childless less person.

You know here's here's a fun one. Yeah, trying give you to play really good job. One, get a VPN no, and explore the television of another country. Right now we my girlfriend is a huge river fan, and we watched .

all of americans .

on .

net x out.

No, because, well, you can do all some of this. But we got in to survivor, the american show. We've watched all IT.

And now we watched australian survivor. And we do IT on australian T. V. More hard core is is more hard core once a little, a bit more handsome and IT is fascinating.

I watch if we watched on the streaming service of the local network is called ten ten play. And so the only commercials we we really consume now our our local australian commercials, which I know is of no value to local australian advertisers. But um I know it's fascinating.

This is a really interesting perspective shift and then we start to see american shows that are advertised. I always feel, say, to know what gets distributed internationally and what's different and what's the same. So if you're tired.

just like the three point of version, what's the one point of version? I like the .

three point of the return of silo. I was a huge fan of silo on apple T. V. Just in case you think you .

have been one dering. If that's good.

I think it's excEllent. IT is a uh populate show, but IT is very different. It's from the create justified I believe. Um the first season has a very surprising format to IT in a really interesting way.

You watch the first episode and will be a twist and you know go ww and then you watch the second episode is even bigger twist. So I cannot be a bigger uh fan of silo in the second season just started. And so far IT is uh is really paying off.

So that would be the thing I am so excited about. I'm excited to see good or two. So excited to go .

back to the theatre. yeah. Is anyone watching the end of yellowstone? My only one just kept .

with watching our mother who's right over .

there is watching. She's welcome .

to have to keep .

up the culture.

I thought IT was gonna go poorly after not .

great .

you know the prograf departure and and fight over their main character and creator but .

um IT interesting with .

their drama very .

yeah yeah can read about the hollywood .

drama OK that answer the question .

that our mother .

asked me last night carving love the show ah refused to participate but I I think it's it's somehow making IT work and .

the writings gray and it's continuing to just .

be gorgeously .

and drama between Kevin and and tailor .

said and the currently speak .

on tiktok a lot of the clips my girlfriend said he he said no, I haven't seen IT, but I saw all the .

clips on tiktok so this is like my mom saying, dave, I love your podcast and I oh, that's cold and she's like, I see IT on instagram all the time. H, that's not the whole post.

OK. You know, for most people that modern entertained so matter. You left us with VPN for international shows, silo landmen. These are good patients.

Yeah in in australia's survivor of anyone. If you've been a fan of survivor time the last twenty years and you've fall on australian survivor back in.

yeah okay well, guys, we have to depart because we've got family to feed and entertain and the more and have to go to wanted, which i'm i'm very excited for as well. Yes, so hard to find around here out with mary.

Well, to our listeners.

thank you for listening. We'll call this the break from your in laws week. So if you're listening what you're on this you know all you're free time um we hope you've enjoying this pot of good substance.

We have to be because that we will have to revisit the themes and we do appreciate you. I will teach, we've got a great guest next week or not can say who IT is, a great gas gonna good big tit. Well, as center, as closely epervier as you can get, and I will just use has polar opposite points of view from some lesson on multiple .

topics while still being in a tech row, I would say so no.

we can use that.

I .

girl leader .

who yesterday .

one .

might have referred .

to buy that monitor.

But no, he's great.

It's all in your hands. Yes, I hope you all had a happy thanksgiving.

We've got some great .

place to find the and episode I I should say for those of you like watching.

will be here next week. On the other side of the.

you will be listening. okay. Thank you to everyone. And we will see here next week for another episode of more or less.

I guess. Thank you.

Hi, guys.

If you enjoying the show, please leave us a virtual high five by reading IT and reviewing IT on apple podcast, spotify, youtube or wherever you get your podcast. Find more information about each episode in the show notes, and follow us on social media by searching for at more or less at dave morin at lesson at j lesson and me, i'm at bread. See you guys next time.