Bryan Johnson On His Mission To Defeat Human Aging & Live Forever
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The future is here, is always here. The question is, can you see or not, I was absolutely suicidal for a decade, and I would have taken my own life, had to, not of my three children. We tried to treat my body like a smart phone that improves every single month.

And so to do that, we just said we to measure every single biological element, the body we going with the the ever we can. It's the moment where don't die become possible the first time in the new ministry. In this moment, we are living the ideas of that. I've been personally pretty surprised that with the intensity at which people defend, it's an indication that I properly set .

my sites grade, either die or try to live forever.

The single most ambitious thing intelligence can do in this moment is don't die.

Welcome back to the pod today. We have brian Johnson with us. this. Brian, you are someone who I have watched over the last couple of years now with a lot of admiration for a handful of reasons that we're going to a get into today.

It's a range of things, both we are actual work to, I think, just the way you navigate attention online in service of your goals. So just first off about thank you for john y me. I am genuinely very excited about this one.

I mean a lot to have here. Your company, braintree, acquired memo in twenty twelve. You sold all of IT to paypal in twenty thirteen.

And by all sort of tech measures of success, this was like a grand slim, right? You've knocked IT out of the park. This is kind of you achieved. You've climbed the mountain. You've done what so many Young people work decades in in tech to do.

And I think at that point, from where arms sitting, my read of kind of what you are going through, there are lot of things you are going through. But on that one piece, on the company piece, there is a natural question that follows. And i've seen to play out for some of every massive success.

It's like, what do you do now that you've done sort of the huge, enormous thing and some people go and they, you know do, uh, adventure the adventure firm. Some people start like another company or two. They they invest.

Some people know fuck off and go on vacation for for a decade and call a day a few charities. I don't know. Um you decide you going to to say there's a different path for you. Um you have a goal of arresting the human aging process and right off the bat, I mean, I would like to go back before I give into what that means, before I give into your routine, before I give into any of these sort of the media's reception of that in the tech industry, y's reception of that, which I think is maybe the thing that i'm most excited to talk to you about today. I would like to get back in your head around that time because you have also previously related to sort of a period of depression and um a custer of coming out of your former relationship, your former relationship with god, your former relationship with a with with a church, like what is the timeline there? What what point do you decide to go on this sort of journey through the longevity space?

Yet in one years time, I sold briny vmu guta divorce, left religion formally and set off our new path.

So so he was all right. That that is so that is it's twenty thirteen is when this this specific the the journey to blueprint begins because you're popping off like that's a ten year journey, right? Like like you first kind of reemerge publicly a couple of years ago and and sort of start making all of the a the content about this, you get all the attention in the first huge pieces, but IT was a sort of a ten year journey through through this.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is what I was twenty one years old. I I came back from mckale. I was a more man in missionary there, IT living among extreme poverty. And I came back to the united states.

And IT was this reckoning moment where I was understanding where I came from, where I had been and what the future meant to me. And the only way I could understand existence was that I wanted to do something that improve the lives of all of humanity. IT didn't make sense to me to make money, or to to get a job and make money for status purposes.

IT was just, I don't know, I just seemed like IT was the only conclusion a reason person can make. And so the age of twenty one, I determined I would become an entrepreneur, make a hole to money by age of thirty, and then with money, go out, try to do something meaningful for the the race. And so that was my orientation from the kicker. So IT was entrepreneurs. That means to an end, really, for that large, that goal.

But you also, I mean, in that year, that pitic year that everything .

changes in the time proceeding .

that where you were doing your most we you sort of doing this initial phase of work you've characterised that is like quite dark. I'm wondering, yes, was there was there A A catalyst, something that Spark you, something that you saw or something that chAllenged you? Um whether be a conversation, another person um trip a book like what was IT if you had to look back for a few things, what was the trigger for you to go on even just this sort of, I guess, rediscovery of yourself?

I mean, really goes back to my upbringing where I was raised in this small rural community on a farm with my grandpa. And the only reality in that entire community was mormonism. I was never presented with our alternative reality. I didn't meet an engineer until I was twenty one years old.

And so when you grow up with a singular understanding of all existence, where specifically the world is painted into good people, bad people, you're the good people, everyone else is the bad people, and you're there to convince bad people that you're the good people are. Then you, when you engage with the real world, you start being exposed to other ways of understanding. Reality is a pretty big shock.

And that happened in my twenty. So I was already married to a morman woman. We had morman children. My terror community was there. I was building start up company. I was, I was in that process as I ve actually left the church mentally far before I left IT formally.

But in the moment, if you discontinue your obligations in that community, you several your relationship, you several your relation with the community, you're just private outcast, like everything crumbles. And then what you do with your kids is I kind of just put my head down and stayed with the program in a relationship in the community. But meanwhile, i'm trying to understand reality. And my mind always went to these questions of, like, what is happening, what is really going on, and never made sense to me to just play the game. Those are far to me, which is like, you make money by a hours.

Do a car? Have that as authority? I was really at all top point time to understand that what is actually happy happening in existence, and what does that mean to me and what do I do because of IT? And so IT was this basically this premise, that no game in society was worth playing unless I could reconcile that idea with my understanding of existence.

And would you so you make the transition um at the top of this conversation and also in the peace so we you I had a full conversation that um we have the transcript partly edited, lightly edited online para wires 点 com as well as the piece that I wrote about art exchange and sort of some additional thoughts on the longevity project in general um but throughout this I sort of characterize your goal high level here if you see there's this greater human the sort of human the goal， human welfare or flourishing a greatness um but to narrow down a little bit i've been Carry risking in this arresting the human aging process or um extending human longevity. Would you sort of accept that uh character .

ation yeah I would yes and I would yes and that I would say I I was heavily persuaded by influence by Albert camo, the french philosophers, and he, he's a formidable, intelligent. And he explored the frontiers of physical call, thinking on existence.

And he came back with this remarkably simple conclusions, which is, if you go to that extreme of thought, you come back with the surely simple question, do you commit suicide as the only question that matters? Because you realize that everything is meaningless. And then if you choose to not commit suicide, is play, is play hard.

And then I jump ed to James cars, and if you're going to play, do you play a finite game where there's winters are losers, there's a start time and end time? Or do you play infinite game where the only objective of the game is to keep on playing? And that's how I reconcile my existence, is I am a conscientious. I think I exist. I think i'm experiencing conscious ness, not sure, but I think feels like given that the state of affairs for me, that the next step I could do is to say, well, the only thing to do is to keep on playing the game, which means the only thing that matters is to focus on eliminating death.

Would you be I mean, this sort of a strange question, maybe, but why we're speaking about this, I have this idea that is that would I be fair to say that you were contemplating an end to your own life? And the alternative was this IT was like, either die or or try to live forever.

Exactly right? I was absolutely suicidal for a decade, and I would have taken my own life, had a not behave of my three children.

I mean, this is obviously an enormous, uh, in dark sort of space in your life but from there the sort of the levity with which you approach the next chapter has been um really remarkable to me. You get tons of of hatred and I think that IT is I mean, I have so many thoughts on why people are mad about what you're doing, right? Know a couple years ago, the first slew of piece of start coming out.

Um obviously the press has a problem with you because the press is run from sort of one ideological point of view in that spectrum of thought um rich people doing anything is kind of not allowed like anyone who wants to do something big or weird or says they have an ambition vitious goal that's considered a suspect right now in this climate. But and on on the other hand, know you get a lot of IT from it's like the tech industry as well. And there is a reaction perhaps to your um aesthetics at at some point. How do you I have some thoughts here. How do you what do you think about the sort of the hatred you get for your lunch, your work in in longevity?

I have set a positive emotional relationship with the head. I love IT. I mean, IT absolutely makes me so happy.

I love to engage with IT. I love to see IT. I love to see people's insult. I love when they work hard at.

I have have a question, what what is you do you have a favorite, a favorite?

Oh, men, others spent so many good ones. Like one time somebody posted A A picture of, like, we what we look like, an animal skin, like all flat, pulled out to know the size that was. Humans are best like a skin human, just one layer.

And he was something like this galaxy c. Brian Johnson, that was, that was pretty clever. This is so many good ones .

and this is i'm let's talk about so what maybe back up slightly before we're get into all of the hatred and how you think about IT. And I have some proper questions here. It's there's reacting not just is the esthetic the esthetics of you I think red, it's like you are naked quite a lot in your pictures online. There is the outlandish outfits and things like this. Um it's also the actual process. So before IT may be into a stax work, IT will be helpful to go through just maybe the conStellation of programs that you are working on now, the sort of companies and projects, just what they are, you know, brief y that you actually working on and then you're routine I would love to know about your diet and your daily personal routine.

Yeah, I think so if this is helpful for anyone who is listening, this is how I think about hate is. You realized that in any given moment, the I gusts, that is the the beliefs that people have the norm stayed to, the things they care about, the minimum games they explain, they going after. Those are relics of the past.

Those are ideas of dead people in any given moment. We, in this moment, we are living the ideas of dead people. And that's been true for every generation before us. The future is here, is always here.

The question is, can you see IT or not? And so when I work is an entrepreneur, I do not, I specifically do not want to be respected by people in my time in place. I want to be respected by the people from the twenty fifth century.

Because if you seek the the respective of people now, you are married to the past, and you can be a true of you can't push the boundaries of what possible because you're weed to that, uh, looking backwards and so when people are having these reactions, it's so predictable that they're just basically saying, hey bryan, you don't match the twenty, twenty three, eight guys which built upon the ideas dead people and that makes me feel comfortable. Of course I am trying to bridge twenty first century. Of course, you're going to get that reaction. So to me, it's an indication that i've property set my sites correctly.

Hey guys, thanks for listening to the pie wires pod. Make sure you like, subscribe comment below and share this with your friends. If you are respected by contemporary and the twenty first century IT would imply necessarily that you were at least now you might not be wrong in what you were doing, but you were not working on the right thing according to the future you characterised um a thought experiment of yours where you command with beings from the two thousand five century um there's just how you came to your goal about the longevity project. Can you talk a little bit about I mean maybe characterised that um or or sort of lay that out for us briefly?

Yeah I mean, I think it's cold. Think about just go back in the centuries and say, right, if you lived in the seventh century, what would be the most ambitious thing somebody could imagine doing? What would that beef? The eighth century and the night of the eleven, and just clock to the centuries.

And you could say, okay, like in the fifteen century, you couldn't dever to sell around the world. The navigation tools were good enough. Ships were good enough.

You could. They learnt enough about navigating the oceans. You could have done a probably in the twelve century or thirty century. And so at a given time in place, not the question I asked, okay, we're twenty and twenty three. What is the single most ambitious thing I can do in this moment?

And in now, I mean, in the twenty first century, your sense is that extent dramatically extending the human lifespan is possible for the first time.

Yeah, it's basically the single most ambitious thing intelligence can do in this moment is don't die. But something has changed recently.

That is a that is sort of open this up because, I mean, presumably is also the most important thing that people should have done several hundred years ago. But are we just like technologically closer to that project?

Yeah, i've learned this in my I started always fund after I saw branch of animal as a way to basically get a degree in deep tech. I've learning all the hard sciences and engineering, and I invested in as first money in inkle bioactive. That is now the domain to provider a sensitive biology, a company called new math, which is precision chemistry.

Building structures out of my atomies using metal organic framework and being in the trenches with these companies for forty two companies in the past decade has shown me that we have the ability to reliably engineer all of reality. We can engineer Adams and molecules. We can engineer, uh, biological organisms.

We can engineer digital reality. We can even engineer our own biochemistry. We have now, we've acquired the skills of gods to engineer reality. When you have those basic skills, you just simply apply the function of time and you're gonna solve IT. Ah we know that biology uh is the ratified and lives is doable because already done in nature by nature already has shown that you can you can regenerate oneself. And so it's not like we're up against the laws of physics and trying to figure out how to travel faster than light. So to me, and then you're do you map on the final one, which is like what how fast is artificial intelligence improving? And yeah, it's the it's the moment where don't die becomes possible in the first time in the human history.

The canvas for the project is yourself. You know that's where you do the work. It's in your own body and that's what you reveal, allowing your your progress and what not IT is a process of measuring, which is IT seems to be the really important thing here is, is sort of naming metrics for success in where in my body, what in my body is dying, so to speak, how did I die today, measuring how much you died in the given moment and then correcting for that.

Can you sort of laid down maybe like a list of the sort of average, a list of the test that you'll take in a day? What what are the metric for success and how do you go about living everyday so as not to die? Like like what are you measuring? And uh, just, yeah what does your day look .

like with with technology? We are accustomed to doing version control, visual and least a version. Two diversion, three version of four get Better every single version.

We tried to do the same thing of my body. We tried to treat my body like a smart phone that improves every single month. And so to do that, we just said we going to measure every single bilos gc element body.

We can. We're going to look at all the certified evidence we can. So yeah, my day today, I woke up for thirty to the morning.

I did A, I know what to see things I did. I did a few minutes of light exposure with ten thousand locks at twelve inches in the eyes. I took my waking body body temperature to my air.

I do every morning. It's a really good indicator of overall if something is happening. I wait myself, got body fat, muscle, water, hydration, and then I did H R V.

Therapy and this in meditation. I took sixty two pills in twenty outside of liquids with creating called in peptides, citizen coco powder and some illegal lize than an hour of workout. I did some red light therapy bed, just some skin care in a couple pounds of vegetables, and they started my day.

And that's the first four hours. Yeah, yeah. On the vegetable.

right? What what is your diet consists of? IT seems like you've broken down this. You've broken this down for me previously as the core things are still it's it's diet, sleep and exercise. Um what are you eating because IT seems americans are kind of famously obsessed with their um in IT tends to tie to people's identity, I ve noticed. So you have the carnivals and the polio people and you can sort of start to understand their politics just from their diet typically yeah which is unique to this country a your diet clocks in a strange way um maybe it's so extreme that it's not so different, but the vegetarianism clocks to someone who is test to be nature. Focus said, not super self transformation, but your vegetarian, right?

Like what is your diet look like? So breakfast is a brothy call of flower ginger garc black lantos. The next meal is a putting putting which is barrie p protein and palm granules.

The next meeting is bunch barriers, nuts and, uh through vegetables so and then that taken harder pills and the hut pills is it's not to address deficiences. The one hundred pills is to a base will be like um again this is the question but jelen tried to sell er around the world. We're trying to achieve perfect health. And so one hundred pills is basically taking all the scientific leadership has ever been done to say, what is the very best health you can create in a human in the year twenty twenty three.

I okay. So we've got a diet. We have the routine.

Um you have this massive team of doctors. You spend I mean millions of dollars year. That is what the headlines. Yeah I. Need to know about the penis rejuvenation um i've seen a lot of IT about this online. You've talked about direction health as a metrics I think for sort of youthfulness um maybe can you can you break that down for me and explain to me uh, the penis lam and how to get to like optimal penis health?

Yeah the first thing to do is to take baseline measurements and you can do those with questioners and they assess erectile strength, uh duration, uh your pet trade ability and so when you take those test, I scored twenty twenty five. I um I have one hundred percent uh performance of my xul abilities now. So I that was my baseline.

Uh, if somebody does that, they have some form very active functions or something, then the path would be different. So that was my base, fine. And we said, we propose this a idea. Could I have, could I basically have the most quantified peanuts in the world? And that we we look, we look at all the scientific literary.

We said, okay, how do you quantify the piano? Like, how do you scientifically measure penis function from every possible direction? And so we looked that we need to come through to the evidence, and we came up with like six or seven ways to measure my uh, my business, my sexual function, my penis health.

And we just start doing that, for example, like one of the test was you want to look at blood flow through the peanut. So A, A determining factor. R, on how hard you can become.

Uh, is the flow of blood the piano? So to do that, I got injection of my penis that IT create an erection and then alter sounds, is used to measure blood flow rate, and that can be age quantified. And so the Younger you are and the strong with the blood flows in, the older you are, unless you have, which means more flash and side of one and the other ones.

We looked, we did something looking for peano black. I hear the word black, and you think black on teeth. Uh, there's actually a disease that is formed with business plack, which makes the the business curve.

So we did a panis black. I have zero penis black. We just have a jin sees of the penis. We look at my max you a nation speed so how fast can you be so you have to drink a whole bunch liquid. And then you're measure in the volume of that we looked at.

Um we just got this device we haven't done measured yet, but the sensitivity of the tip of the penis because just like your nerve endings age like everything else and so you become less sensitive time we did a few more things, uh oh yeah. So then we just like the measured protocol and they would jump to the therapy of, like, what do you do to improve sexual performance and peos health? And one thing we landed on was focused shock with therapy.

IT uses acoustic technology to basically it's like working out, uh, the area so that you know, when you A G M, you work out a creates micros, which then rebuild. And this is doing the same. And I can be used for the entire body.

So all tended allegation, all joints IT can also be using the piano. So people who have react the function, they get the focus, shop with erp, be done other peano, which helps them regenerate in their ways and they can recover from a retitled function. So even though I didn't start with the retina lous function, I did that to say, could we amplify IT? And one of the measure where we are doing with night time reactions. So we have the little device you put IT on the shaft you wear at the base and then you were before you go to bed. But you is really, you think about IT that you going to be irritated the whole night.

But what you put IT on, you go to bed, you just forget about IT and that has a little string the rap from the shaft so then when you go to sleep, as you become erected the night, uh IT expands to measure the quality of the direction and the duration and as you as you age a Rachel, a uh, nighttime reactions naturally decreases as if you find a person's bio marker on the night time erections. You can actually biology them. And it's a marker of physiological, sexual and physical health. So they are really poor marker about the health of somebody. If you're somebody, life is grading and you're not sleeping well, you're likely having zero nit erections.

I want a table for a minute the question of, I love the concept of Better directions personally, for the world. I took an important project, and i'm in favorite a bit when IT comes to the link to longevity. Um this in the bucket with maybe many of countless tests every day there a test you have sort of monthly test to return to. You are called, uh, the most tep measured men in the world, how .

met.

So these are there are markers for age, but is there an underlying is there and and IT seems like you're theory here and cracked me from wrong is um or maybe your hypotheses is if you just if you just correct for all of the markers you're sort of correcting for age and general um what is there an underlying aging thing that we don't understand, don't know about that? Are you is this going can this work, I guess, is what i'm asking? Can I just sort of IT feels like sort of abandoning the markers of age?

Is is that actually reducing the human age or um reducing sort of uh the detrimental or mitigating the detriment mental health effects of ageing? And is that enough? Or is there something some bigger piece? IT feels like IT just seems from obviously eve researchers for years, but to me IT IT feels like it's there is something bigger, like this kind of hidden thing.

Yep, yeah, you can slow once, be the begin, or you can reverse aging damage that has happened. And there are two distinct categories. The majority of things that people do like Better diet, sipe and exercise, you're slowing the speed of aging.

And then there's things like gene therapy, which can actually or a genetically programing which can reverse sage and those that more powerful therapy is coming to the pipe. So we employ both. We do both age slowing and age versa. And the majority is aged slowing at the moment. Uh, as these new age reversing technology come online.

How do you name that in yourself? Personally it's like what i'm wondering what age what sort of biological age would you say you are right now and what is your aging? Um uh h how much do you age in a year compared to the average, the average man.

let me tell you how the exact data. okay. So I currently age, I accumulate agent damage slower than ninety six percent of forty five year old, ninety two percent of thirty five years old, ninety percent of thirty eight, eighty eight percent of twenty five year olds and eighty six percent of eighteen year old. Lds, so every the order you get, the faster you age the compounds.

And and what would you say you you have been able to revert. So you've just slowed down the process because I think that one thing a lot of people react to and in any conversation of yours, you'll say something like I have like and I don't want to do this is not ever beaten, quote.

This is I think a rough sense of it's like, no, a jack my erection is that of a nineteen year old there's something right like people hear that and they think this man thinks his eighteen or this man thinks he's twenty five. How olds are you and and then IT seems like you're aging slowly, more slowly than than other people on average. But what is your? How old are you?

Yeah, yeah. This is the new concept of truly call. People are grabbing with this. If you look at a babies heart, an old heart, you know, they're different by both how they look and how they function. So you can determine biological age, looking at structure and function.

And so if you, I can be chrono, ological and forty six, but my heart can look like and function like you are thirty two years old. And that's what we've done, is we've measured everything in one of my organs on my biology processes. And we specially have quantified, for example, my cardio ater health.

My view to max has a functional capacity of the one point top one point five percent eighteen year old. So it's not that I think I A teen, is that my when I compared that right capacity and that we do the same thing as my entire body, my lungs, for example, my diff frame strength has the functional capacity of a year old. My left deer has the functional capacity of the sixty four years. What's I have hearing damage from a kid as a kid when I shot a lot of guns and listen to loud music.

What is the minister slight departure about? Curious, what is the minister of programmed to assist you?

We haven't had any success.

I've all sorts of ear problems. Do I get a lot of tubes as a kid and so and i'm going to year but right now I am sort of movie self officially obsessed this question right now yeah so there's nothing down. The one thing I really needed right now.

yeah, there's a few gene therapies that are in labs right now, but nothing that we can find that is close to be a applicable to view for now. The right.

So the look of IT is fun, and you've talked about the playfulness. Ss, this already. IT is like, that is the way that you approach a philosophy of life light.

Once you decided to live, you were going to live. IT was going to be fun. You are going to try to maximize ze that life. You're going to share your results with everybody, which is what you're doing in public, which is one of the things that I really love about your work is you show us everything that you're doing and um and we get to kind of learn as we go or chAllenge IT you handle the criticism really well.

Um if you were to get rid of all of that though, the sort of look of IT in the public piece of IT, just the idea of interrogating yourself, trying to understand how your body works and how to become healthier uh, measurements, the imperial m of that and work around like these are classically these sort of tech industry things. This is like the engineering type person should love this. And historically has um I expected the media to sort of come after you and I expected people online rayman people online to make fun of IT all because that's always happened tech um I will say some of that new right the history of longevity in fiction, for example, is as old as our old, literally old.

This fiction gilgamesh matched in tablets, right? We have been talking about immortality or eternal youth of fountain of youth. It's coded into all of our stories.

It's not really until modern m that that becomes um a is also our faith, right? I know you're kind of rejecting some of this right now, but like that is deeply what Christianity is about is a eternal life through A A mystical process. But like this is we see IT everywhere at every lever of western culture.

Until recently, we see IT. So it's fAllen off in the media. But where you still saw a lot of this hopefulness, maybe twelve years ago or so, when I first started working in tech, was this industry.

There was a strong, robust of technologically progressive, super sort of like groovy, almost burning man type vibe among, I would say, like the who I considered deal etes the people I like the most in the industry. Um there were fear, lest that we get made fun of IT not care. There were many of them.

And um I guess the the the sense that i've been having the source, strange as i've been having while talking to you both now in earlier in our earlier conversations, is you're doing something that is very new and yet IT feels like you're being attached for as if it's new. But but it's there was there were many people doing this um twelve years ago. Maybe not like you're doing IT now, right like not this extreme.

But there are many people talking about this. They have fAllen off. The conversation in the technology industry has changed significantly, which is alarming to me. Like you have the media left going after because you're a really rich person doing something. Now on the political right, there is a huge ascending push towards the natural.

It's like the the hippy right is what we're seeing come rise up that's the sole brows of the worlds like the meters throughout their sun tanning and getting muscled. Um they're not here for all this gay stuff and it's like that's the vibe that that we're getting over there and you have no I think that you have no more natural basic support. Um I have a lot of questions on this subject.

My first one is just I mean, do you do you agree with that? Do you feel like a little bit lonely in tech right now? Do you feel like you've had, uh, as much supporters you would have liked, thought you might have? I know if that just maybe start there.

My my private interactions are a different reality from the public interactions. My friends, even acquaintances, are so generous with me and kind, and they've been eager to engage. I've seen nothing but positive reactions privately.

So it's not the reality I live in. That's why deal the onlies space is so fun for me, is just like the circus we all get to play in the fun games. But I privately, I was reminded as a Young father, when I was learning how to teach my child to swim, I was to explore the ways I could teach him.

And I looked up online and I found a few suggestions. A one, you could push the child at the pool like, good luck. Or you could jump in the pull yourself and say, you jump into my open arms.

Or three, you can show them their friend doing the given thing. And of those three things, the most powerful way to teach your child how to swim is to show them their friend, they can swim. Because if their friend can do that, they can do IT.

And their friend can do that, they want to do IT. They want to be in this tribe. They want to be part of the longer they want their respect.

You see this in a world records for things like like races and strength competitions, and what these previously, you would think, unattainable goals and also use in figure skating when crazy techniques are innovated. Uh, the axles and the trip to the double to the triple axles that what IT happens in multiple people figure out out .

pretty quick. That's right, right? And this is the thing I was trying to prove with with blue int is anybody can talk about a given problem.

Being the problem is, is an entirely different nature. And if you just simply take health awareness, we know that primarily our responsibility. But if you taken to a broader or frame and, say, climate change, most officials say we pass my ability to do anything.

I can recycle my boxes and I can plant a tree. But i'm really powerless in this bigger question on planet earth, or, like our nation says, going to go to war. powerless.

I can't really do much about the situation. So we assess these problems. And what I wanted to do is I wanted to take on the world's problems, every single one.

I wanted to take on the risk of an isolation risk. I wanted to take on A I goal lamb. I want to take on climate change.

I wanted to take on death. And the way you do that is you become the problem. And that's i've done computationally. So yes, I post nudes. Yes, I have a certain atheling and those who are paying attention, and it's increasingly more every day I am trying to demonstrate a site, guys of existence, that will dominate in a century from now. But what we cannot see and IT hits all the .

things yeah that is um we keep talking about the eh I keep about because i'm just very interested in sex generally and sort of what they evoke and what culture follows and you are very clearly yes, you're having fun but you have created your own aesthetic sensibility and IT is this you futuristic esthetic IT is what is what is what is the world that I look like in one hundred years? It's like that kind of anaesthetic um from the way that you dress to the way so you don't dress the way you're hair and things like this um that is also that something I can generally in the tech industry.

So for years I would beat the drummer of like we need a Better vision for the future, both in terms of what IT IT is going to look like and also in terms of, um we know what it's gna be you know people often talk about the, uh you know technology pianism and i'm like, what is that what you have to describe IT to people if if you're going to get them on board like what does their energy bill look like, right? How are they living? What does their home look like? How are they dressing? How are they falling in love? Um how are they having children in raising them? What are they eating? Like these are the things that they sort of the texture of of a human life, has always been missing from technology.

Pianism, which is something that I really cared about a while ago. I will get that over the last few years, especially up and really beaten down by, like this, relate less culture war stuff. And i've lost a lot of that and I don't think of me the only one because I look around and again, I just don't see I don't see that stuff.

Um I don't see a strong of a strain of of the technology talking. There are all sorts of people who pay lip service to IT, and we'll talk about IT a and there are some people who do take IT a little even a little more seriously. The are the ec guys, I think, that are a version of this.

But but they're also still they're mostly is a very powerful and very important meme. But there are less people willing, I think, to live truly groovy kind of wild lives. Um you are one of them, I think.

Am I getting this wrong? Do you feel like the industry is sort of less on that beat, more on that beat? Uh, and then I would like to talk about sort of what the vision for the future needs to be.

But first, just like do people how am I wrong like like you feel like the vision is still there. They're less of IT is they're more of IT. Where are we where are we in the narrow sort of tech industry space? On that question.

I was with about fifteen people at a dinner party a couple years ago, and one of the people there went on the little monolog and said, where is the future and he made .

a couple .

comments like in my circles we're just talking about the latest guest on the next freeze in podcast. We're listening to a Peter till said, yeah like whatever and is like where where is the future? And I had spoken a few minutes earlier about bu print and about this idea aligning myself and of zero osm and a match of things and work.

However, I said IT IT just didn't resonate with him as being interesting at all. And part of me was like, you know, I felt like this person seems like, third, genuinely interested in trying to put their finger on the future. And I just presented to him my very best guess on what the future is. And IT missed like he didn't.

He's still like, where is that? And so this is the chAllenge I always feel for myself in all of us. The future is always, always here.

The only question is who sees IT? It's not. Yes, that's IT like we know. Like if you look at to our history, the future had always arrived at a very small percent of the population actually thought, and then those who did that, there was a pretty big fork of those who rejected IT at made fun of IT, and those who actually thought I might be a thing for me. I'm always in a discrete state of trying to assess whether my own ideas really are or whether i've seen in the role i've missed IT. But that's the hardest thing, is getting socked into the four text of the present h is yet the only present chAllenge.

What resonated the content that you're putting out? I guess the way that IT resonated for me was if I felt very much like a return to something important IT felt very much like A A really amazing, beautiful dream that I had and I had forgot my head and you were this hero from the past talking about the future um and he got me excited again about really weird things and really difficult things and solving chAllenges that you're not supposed to say our and death is very much this.

He mentioned Peter a moment ago and I mean, there is a lot of aligned I the I would not say that he's definitely not doing what you're doing in terms of his daily routine but Peter was the first person in my life. Whoever chAllenged me on the issue of mortality and um IT was something that i've always feared and really cared a lot about but somehow had not until I met him allowed myself to wonder if we had to die IT was it's so baked in to the world, right? Everything tells you you have to die from our religion though some of them I think our complicated than that or complex I would say I do feel that Christians is very it's there's a life at least is promising life ever lasting even if IT requires death to get there. Um there are many that don't do that. It's like reincarnation, death to to live again um you .

have a this mean about .

aging with Grace and IT seems not so Graceful to me. There is no Graceful ful way. I don't see the the Graceful way to age.

I see my parents and I want them to be healthy and alive forever with me. And I want them to be with my you know grandkids and great grandkids. I don't want them to get older and it's not Graceful um it's horrible.

I I see as a cancer Peter held me sort of get there early on. Uh that was a very important question for me. We I certainly um got a little bit lost in over the last few years, feel feel like some other sort of core fundamental things were chAllenged.

Now I don't know it's it's sort of like it's back to that for me, at least in part I I want to think about this stuff again. And that requires this weird sort of exploration and IT requires being weird. And it's like, I guess you were saying earlier um the respect of your peers is not so important.

If you're working on a project that is future oriented, it's like you should be creating something fundamentally new and that's going to chAllenge people. Um do you think do you see signs maybe more broadly than the technology? A one, do you agree with my assessment that it's the death stuff really baked in and at this point, culturally? And then two, do you see signs for optimism there for more alignment on on the question of life?

Yeah, that's that's been one of the things I think that i've been personally pretty surprised that is the intensity of which people defend death yeah. And then I I say on the optimism side, I don't put much stock into what people say generally.

Yes, and I think .

that when you eliminate the data point of what people say that clears the air for in dug a an extreme level of of options. M, on my part. But basically, we humans, we adopt technologies that help us do the things we care about instantaneously.

If a digital navigation system helps us arrive at our destination more efficiently than a paper map, we say yes to IT. If a washing machine does the close classical Better than down by the creek, we say yes to IT. We say as a technology, and then we forget we ever resist these things in the first place.

And technology is now on this path of improving so dramatically. IT doesn't matter what we say about IT, we're going to adopt. It's inevitable and it's gotto produce.

We work up against a wall of fog and knowing words going to take us but I guess that's why i'm so abolish is um if we can properly get the philosopher foundation right as we walk into the future, I boo lish. So basically we develop these. So the super intelligence, what do we do with that?

Do we use IT to play the games that humans are always played, which is raise armies, calor territory, acquire wealth? And or do we use IT to pursue a new idea to a framework of don't die, which is, don't, don't die, don't kill each other, don't kill the earth. I would don't die, and that's what I am hoping we can cement, because if we use this technology to play old school homosapien games were going to dramatically increase the risk .

we ani IT ourselves. Well, this brings me to a question really like what people are. I guess one idea that has captured my attention for the last a few years, i've talked about a bit on this podcast of written a little bit about IT um is the concept of Linda. And in the online orbit of people talking about health, you have the hyper measured and um they know future oriented and I would you be in my opinion is like the leader in that camp um and then you have the church I happy right wing sort of new health that's happening. Um maybe the sole brows of the world there there the people who summed their balls and eat liver meat and you know all like carnivore uh or at least are eating like heavy meat diets lifting weights.

But they are taught .

it's not just a reflective I want to steaming them a little bit. There is not just a reflexive, anti progress, anti future thing. A lot of this is, I think, based in this idea that there is wisdom baked into really ancient stories in ancient ways of doing things.

And it's just a process of trial and air, right? So like things that have been around for the longest have a very good chance of having benefit people for the longest because they're prove IT out. So um this ask a question like, you know there's a drug that spent around for just a couple of years, how long might IT be around?

What what's your best estimate for how long something new will be around? And it's like maybe as long as it's bent around, um it's very new. IT hasn't been tested yet.

There are all sorts of drugs and vaccines that we take, that we no longer take and no longer wants to take, building materials that we in the twenty century are gone. However, the chair you know like like concrete stone um these things have been around forever. But there were probably ancient things that we tried.

They didn't work out. They were if they weren't is good right? I think that these people um the sort of cranky right or the happy right are of waiting the flag of Linda, which seemed to lab has also really, really popular zed are trying.

I think there's a worry that we've lost something in majority of important truths. And and and this is maybe a this is like the aesthetic marker of that way of thinking. Like what have we left behind that we should not have left behind. Now I sort of my problem with the lady stuff. I I am am taken by a generally um or maybe in general my high level problems like there's no such thing as a Linda rocket ship. Um if you believe in any kind of progressive world view for mankind that extends beyond this planet is like you have to take risks if you want to do anything great, any new advances, energy forms like like you need to try stuff um but do you think there's a wisdom at all in in the sort of like the sole bra stuff, the weight lifter stuff, the like the crunch right like the Linda stuff. Do you see anything there?

I think what you're talking about is an issue that actually not been addressed, which is that the most forms able form of intelligence has spent on this planet for the past two hundred thousand years have been homo sapiens. We have remapped this planet to accommodate the things we care about with our intelligence, and it's just like death is engrained.

So is the assumption that our intelligence rains supreme and should be the captain seat making decisions. And the blind spot that created in a contemplation is that a new form of intelligence that is superior in certain domains has horizon. And that is, when you get data sources of sufficient quality and you apply computational intelligence that can do things that humans cannot do, that becomes the defective thing.

And she's like navigating from point a to point b. And a algorithm is taken into account all the traffic flows of all the cars on the road is going to outcompete any human. There's no way a human can now compete that because they don't have access to data.

And what those with a conversation on Linda IT doesn't account for is that we have achieved this now with personal health and wellness. And not thought i've been trying to show a bu print, is the age of human intellect being the source? Authority for decisions on what to do and how to take care ourselves is now a bike on era that seems that .

people have felt this way about every sort of mean we have a whole at least least just talk about the last you know fifty years of pharmaceuticals, right? There are many people who came with data that and they were wrong um or the data this is for too small er they were they were looking for one thing in didn't didn't account for something else.

Um I agree that we have a blind a homosapien blind spot and probably some massive supermassive intelligence. May I few years from now would be able to account for much more. Um but we are using that human intelligence to try and search out the right kinds of data to metric or or or to even make assumptions like we have. Like we know what the optimal health strategies are. Well, now we know that we know what's working. But I guess I what i'm saying like what don't you know you don't know and there has to be a lot of those things like there is maybe um almost a hubris in the assumption that we have like figured so much out IT IT doesn't MIT unless something completely wrong here and we've really crowded the code IT seems like you have a lot a long way to go if you yes.

the premise of the the thought experience was when the data quality reaches a certain thresh holds. And what i'm proposing is, and what I was trying to show a clip ant, is i've become the most major personal history. And if you look at the way which for measure in my body and you consider that were contemplating in hundreds of data points from blood aliva store DNA message MRI ultron fitness test, like we're doing hundreds of measurements, and we have that data in hand to then pair up with the scientific evidence, it's in my estimation, far superior than saying what has been should be.

yes. Is there a baLance though that maybe is helpful or not at all? Do you sort of like thrown away the wisdom in that completely?

Or is there no body. In that what without the diving deep, I wouldn't throw out the entire thing but i'm trying to think of anything practical that would say, uh, that I would find some heroics of what husband should be that I would, uh. I would vote on over an emi.

有， i think that when IT comes to health, you this is really these are the two genders, so to speak. Maybe it's always spend this way. Um I wasn't .

you right? No you got the thing that is um so like this this fight is gonna play out at this discussion and is fine. There's no conceivable future where human heroic based upon the path winds today. There's nothing there's no way it's gonna happen at some point in time.

It's only a question of when the majority of people basically concede that the data quality is sufficiently good and the algis ms are sufficiently good that you have Better outcomes because also only whoever is talking about the Linda, they're playing the same games at one else. They want wealth, they want power, they want status, they want sex. And when they lose on the metrics they care about, they're going to adopt the things that help them achieve wealth, power, success and status.

And so I put myself out as as as a blueprint, if I am Better at achieving those things on them, are going to have to recall, at some point, the methodology are only this. What i'm saying, and I bullish about the future IT doesn't matter what humans say, we always adopt what advice, our own self interest. So ultimately, we we naturally navigate to the best solution because .

that that helps us achieve our objectives. If that's true, then the recent sort of philosophical embrace of death, the aversion to the longevity stuff over the last, you know, fifty, sixty years, I mean, have we been heavy naturally? Sort of waited that because it's helpful in some way. But you have in but culture has like the average person has or or is there a storytelling blind spot .

that the empiricists are suffering from? yeah. We saw the world change within twenty four hours.

With covet, we restructured our entire society in a matter of days. We are incredibly capable, changing and extraordinary ily fast. And we do so when the irrelevances require IT. Up until then, everyone runs our mouth on everything. This is that IT doesn't matter.

I where were on the long time horizon? High horizon were headed on a certain path where da combined of algorithms will be superior to our current native for of intelligence. Now we're going to have some interactive intelligence. What IT is T D, but it's not to be the case that we retained this capacity. And so our opinions about death, they got a moral beyond our recognition.

And that's when I when I hear you speak and I hear um your emotional and intellectual experience relating to the people's opinion, the decade go, where you are now and what you care about you trying to navigate the eyes guys to a certain degree um I fill you and I also in this conversation, I feel liberated that um i'm tuned out because I legitimately don't think that anyone knows what you're talking about. They're running their mouth and they're doing so because that of the the the meeting making game is a run their mouth right is say a given thing is get a reaction from someone else. Sis is to acquire health of power status connectivity like we're doing this thing, but ultimately doesn't matter because these systems intelligence are running this and ways we can even see right now and will do some more in the future.

So we really need to know the philosophy, correct? We need a basic get a right to say, let's not use this new form of intelligence to kill each other. Let's not do IT to anna the world.

Let's not do IT to kill the planet. Let's just get these basic right. Then we can have all our funding games, and I do these data games to out of the case.

But this is why I feel I feel so h so much excited the future. And I like with myself, I ignore myself. I what a given topic is, you know what I presented to given a question, the first forth thoughts I have are wrong.

I don't I don't care what I think my i'm just working through. I got reactions I ever given question so I treat everyone else. I can treat myself like kind of like I just didn't care what I think.

You return to the data is just like that. You always go back to the the measurements .

even even the question like, do I do I want to live to the editorial or fifty? I have no idea. There's not even like a IT IT is a is foolish for me to even begin to entertain that question is so dioxins for me to contact that I would even know what that means to live to our fifty in the age or going what doesn't mean that you post any question like how would I even begin to answer that question 啊 and be coherent？ So makes no sense in my own mind for me to answer any question like that.

When I know him up a wall of fog, I can see if if you answer somebody in the seven hundred and know what do you think about that that's reasonable because the world wasn't changing or the speed that IT was going to change on the time scale of life and death, things were pretty much going to stay. The same were the first generation in human history where we will experience dramatic change multiple times in our lifetime, maybe multiple times per year. So we just socially, psychologically, society, we haven't reconcile yet with what that means to change as faster are going to change. Now I would try to catch our breath, but these conversations already relux to the past, like they're absolutely backward looking and they're ignoring in the future.

are heading into you are looting. I mean, I think one of the big things you are looting to and done a few times in the conversation is artificial intelligence. Um what are some of things we are looking forward to in terms of the unlocks that A A I will bring obviously longevity. But when you say that, like, what do you mean? What how is he going to help us measure and figure .

out what to do with our bodies here we like when alpha solved a the problem of how do proteins fold a problem that had as like, uh, ten to one hundred and thirty two uh possibilities, nobody thought you could ever be a problem that could be solved. That IT was captial largely the number of atoms verse and IT solved IT.

And so when A I has been a by capable teams like demand crew over deep mind, when they have been able to apply their intelligence to a very specific problem, they've cracked that. Go, go. And all the alcohol at stunning speeds. Now if you get these tools, you make them more general like we're doing.

If the eleven now and a few other alpha source approaches and you have a how much people applying these things in narrow problems are, you do some basic math on what to solve for impossible problems could be and what those things are. Lock IT breaks the mind. We can understand IT.

And so that's i'm saying, like we're the cup of this of all these things come together, we have the ability to engineer reality every possible level. We have the tools of intelligence into people's hands. These systems in our movie about an society, uh, it's a different reality like we we can for the first time, can say any anything coherent beyond six months of our reality.

Last question, I would love to know kind of what advice, specifically health advice, you would give your Young ourself, you're twenty one year old self, what the what the easy things. You would put him on the path of whether be, you know, sleep, diet, exercise, that what's the advice that you have for the goal of living longer and healthy?

A counterintuitively, making health your number one priority will increase the odds you you achieve your epic goals, more so than any other thing you can do your life. And currently that is not the wisdom. The wisdom is burn yourself to the core by sleeping under your desk, eating poorly, you going days without sleep.

And that's how you do. You grind your way to the Victory and what i'm saying is the exact opposite, make your out tomorrow priority and you will achieve your objectives in a superior way. Then if you little burn yourself the core.

you think that you would have achieved that huge. This is hard. Even you achieve achieve pretty tremendous things um while you were in the dark space that is a is a conflict that worries me as someone who is trying to build things myself you know like I do think about this exact question .

quite a lot and you .

succeeded at considerable cost to yourself. Your assumption is that you would have succeeded the more wild.

Yeah, I know. Let's just say, and I do have the advantage of having capital right now, but in in the past year alone, i've had the best year of my life. I became the most measure, personal human history.

I wrote a book that is contending to be the dome, the of the guiding philosopher, the twenty first century. Like, how? How does one even go about doing that? Yeah, with with my book, don't die.

And three is, we've built the most nutritious food program in the human history. Now three domains, personal, I ideological for society and then a company product. Now, yes, I have the benefit of capital. Also, it's the best intellectual work i've done in my entire life.

Now I certain ly could have gone about doing those things, getting very little sleep and eating poorly and not I bet you I wouldn't build accomplish them or I bet you the equality would be dramatically less. And so what you make up in volume, you make up in quality and there's nothing that can replace clear headers. We know this like when you're in the right spot, you can accomplish an hour. What your tired mind, you can option two days.

I know I said that I have one more question actually, because there is something we haven't had a chance to talk much about, which is you equality views. I think the world is in serious need of the way that you sit patiently and answer questions like this about yourself um often when they're pointed is adorable online. This happens all the time. I see you engaging with people um I see you laughing at the insults and offering you know friendly not advice friendly um uh expansion on on some given topic despite the negativity uh from where do you get the I don't even know, I would call IT the the willows to um interact with with the public that way with such um kindness and uh a sense of humor like where where does that come from?

I think is because I make health by number one priority, that I well rested. I'm clar headed. I am emotionally comfort myself. And I what I was running brain tree in a year to someone called into the company and was trying to buy brain free services.

And I was snippy, you know, like, i'm sure something was going on like, whatever ten fires going on like, typical founder stuff. And the person called back and my assisted answer, the phone, and he said, this guy just called, and he said he talked to her. Some of the guy was an ice hole.

He wanted call back and talk to someone else. And I was like, oh my god, I didn't wake up like of anybody in the entire company that should have been curious to an interesting customer, to buyer services. And here I was being a jerk IT was such a moment, a startling moment for me where your running ragged had just made me snap an hour and just not my best self.

I'll never figure that moment and um I really tried to change that so that I can be my best self all time. And this is what i'm saying. I I think I would have built even a Better company had i've been taken care my health well so that does be unideal c sacrifices.

You need to say no to certain things because if you're going to spend thirty two minutes to exercising, you need to make time for that. And that means maybe one less social event or one less something. Maybe need to cut an our long meeting to fifteen minutes. So you need to make yourself, you need gain efficiencies elsewhere.

But it's worth that and this is the thing is when this becomes the norm, everyone's going to forget we ever resisted IT is just the case is when every other kid is in the pool swimming, you're going to be the in the in the poll for me too. We do what our friends do. And when people are taking care of the health and well, this are going to do, they are going to call that no one's going to raise any kind of calms about IT were such as social copy cat species. And so this is the thing that doesn't matter what we say IT only matters what we do because we all apparent each other.

And mayor, amazing. Thank you so much for your time. Uh, in your work, I am very much inspired. It's it's been a great honor to have Young today.

I've really enjoyed that. Thanks for help me.