Everyone Lost Their Minds Over Titanic Sub, Joe Rogan & RFK Jr. Debate Science | Pirate Wires EP #2
01:05:57 Share

Walk back, guys, it's friday. It's time for the firewire show when to try IT and say like a little bit less this time ago. I think actually, I really think IT was river who was getting the heat for that.

And I was maybe just, I went also get a haircut. I promise it's coming. Uh, want to induce you guys to santana freedmen, our newest writer, our newest all time writer. Schunk has been a rider para wires for a while now. I I about six months, eight months, something like that, six months, thousand translate.

thousand transactions out yeah word.

So a new of the team, first time on the pod, and I think we're gonna get right into IT the big story, the biggest stories gotta. I mean, it's it's the it's I keep on to say summary and it's the submersible what but before we start on the titanic, the titanic submersible, smiling is like maybe not a smiling matter dark story um what what is the difference between reversible and a summary? Is is just like a size difference. I have no idea. I have literally no clue.

That is a good question. Well, I keep i've never heard the words immersive before this stroop.

I didn't either until I one weird side of my learning all about this story has been a new love for James Cameron, who I I mean really didn't think I liked titanic, hated avatar, and that kind of like that was the full extent of what I thought about James Cameron. And now i'm learning about. I mean, I didn't realize how horror ing execution horRobin the experience of diving actually was, or how dangerous just kind of they never really thought much about IT um IT puts the fact that James Cameron has dubbed down to the titanic thirty three times i've .

been made thirty three dives. I actually calculated that i've spent more time on the ship than the captain did back in the day.

It's like that's a new perspective for me on that man also he's one of I think just like a few maybe three to five people who went to the marine a french .

which is like many times deeper more deeper .

than ah I think it's times and to me I but but yeah he says submersible a lot and he's might now go to on everything related to the ocean. Um so let's we all just get into IT brand you want to just take us through just to catch the sort of audience supply. I mean, where before I get into my piece in the kind of reaction to this, what was this story? What happened .

in yeah so on sunday, uh sunday morning, just off the coast of new family, which is where the titanic wreckage this company called ocean gate launched, uh, sumeria ble or submarine, which which other one IT is with five people in IT um to go to go actually explore the the wreckage of the titanic and to see IT um within .

an hour and .

forty five minutes they lost communication the the the support vessel on the on the water last communication with the sub b okay so uh, I think what would they use .

before that they were using? What are they how are they communicating even at that point? It's just like is IT .

I think they're actually there, not a present. Sure how how they're communicating. I heard that they were there's like basic .

thing for the great day.

It's radio communication.

are using radio to communicate like a text based thing. Not yes. And this is an important detail because later on we're going to be talking about the satellite internet thing and the fact that islam was blamed for killing a bunch of people every day crazy.

And it's also not uncommon, I think, for submarines to lose contact with their surface vessel for periods of time, right. So this is not necessarily too abNormal, right um but I I guess as the day goes on, um they determine that the the support vessel determines that the immersive with these five guys in IT is lost. And by monday afternoon um the news sort of breaks um I remember I was I was putting together the morning report for tuesday and I included just a line like one line about the marine yeah .

I saw kind of bubble up on on monday. I was avoiding IT. I actually had a whole piece in my piece this process of me being like this feels like a story I don't need to know about and don't want to know about. Yeah yeah by tuesday, IT was just the bigger story .

in the world yeah and on two day tuesday, as when IT became a cultural issue, uh, very quickly and uh, we started seeing people on twitter. Uh, a lot of people were just saying, you know, well, this is horrible um these men must be having, you know, this sounds like the worst thing in the world to be trapped underwater, potentially losing oxygen in pitch black, right? But but other people were joyce ly celebrating。 And so tuesday.

when I dipped in, I mean, I think that I did I actually read IT was IT was a bans. Ben Collins is the sort of embassy chief disinformation expert can stand this guy. I go out, remove the time. Just total propaganda st and I guess siber on propaganda sts. It's when we're told there, it's like we don't know that they're not officially that right like a fox news host is like sort of any an eb c host these like they're like officially propagandist to a certain in extent but someone who whose frame that's like the cop, the information cop who is also a partisan propaganda just bottom drakes me crazy um but what he he made a joke about IT he made a joke about the story IT was like, oh, this is you know at least the internet is back to the sort of bub boy era which was a fun in fluid story that no one died in and no one intended IT up IT was sort of this we thought there was a boy lost in a in a balloon um and there wasn't IT IT turned out that was a balloon with just, you know there was no boy in the balloon at all I believe was what happened to that story we should probably double A A .

bible boy was about bubble like he was called .

you was this twenty eighteen .

the balloon boy uh, I want to look that up like, yeah. Carry on you just that check me there i'm pretty sure there was no boy there. I know that nobody got hurt in that story. And I dipped ed in. And that was when I saw, kind of just what that was, when I really first saw the reality of the .

situation IT IT was or nine.

But yeah.

and I was that long go IT was that so?

That I dig in, we're looking at five men in a small metal tube that is the size of a super ruo, lost somewhere thirteen thousand feet below the surface of the ocean. If they lost power is also a pitch by a pitch black in freezing, because they're not going to have any way to heat the vessel forty hours max of oxyde gen left is what I heard by the time I dipped into the story.

And then you start thinking about all the kind of messed up potential, like human ways, that this gets complicated you know like who is fighting and and who is going crazy down there. And IT was just there's one little like there is a toilet next to the poor hole with no door. Obviously, it's like a tiny little too, but you just start to realize like no one knows where you are, you're gonna slowly die in the worst way possible is what I thought going into the story before.

We knew what that ultimately happened. And what ultimately happened was IT exploded, and we can get to that later. And an imploded fasces, like when they lost communication they lost communication because the vesle had included um but the reaction to IT was like I would say, truly nightmarish to in most people I think have the same reaction we all did IT which was like, holy crap like this is scary what if IT was me? if? What if IT someone I love? And even to a certain extent, why would these people do this? This is a crazy risk.

And I think the answers, they didn't know how big of a risk was, or at least most of the passengers didn't. One of them was just a one thousand nine hundred year old kid, but the reaction from the lap was like, there were some like anti oh, where they like following the I stuff to build this, the submarines from the right. But for the most part, ty was not even the reg.

I mean, we're talking the far sort of hamon and sick bio communist. st. Left thought this was awesome, which was just, that was crazy to me to see that in real time, just constant jokes. You can read my peace empire wires, but is like a whole list of the ua partialities of this sort of greasy st tweet celebrating the death year. But altogether IT was framed in this kind of um IT was framed in this way so as to say that this was OK because these people were responsible for bad things in the world and some of this was made explicit one girl tweet, super viral tweet um that hamish hearting, one of the billionaire on board, he ran a private jet company which was bad for the environment and so his death was a good thing explicit .

but you for all the tweet later with R I P. Bozo, not guns do enough like SHE thread that tweet underneath .

that .

that the same that .

psychotic tic behavior. I I don't understand that like this person has a family. Um I don't I guess it's like maybe to assert exact there's an impulse among people. I think a lot of the jokes were actually just IT was some gallow humor. This is a really horrifying situation in the way that people many people deal with that is to is to of crack like whatever off color jokes and and it's just a way to kind of relieve stress. But some of this was not that, and it's important.

I think it's it's kind of recurring theme that i've seen a lot, and I think about a lot, which is this tendency on the marxist left to genuinely celebrate the death of rich people, which it's like, why are we pretending that that's a joke when this is actually the dehumanization? Here is what we've seen in every single communist country in history. This is always how a cost and IT always leaves to actual murder.

It's not a joke. They're just telling us what they want, which is to mass murder people. And I think that's worth talking about. I think I think it's like something we kind of have to talk about that that process, that the human ization process um I think is that is like basically standard now on on the far left and we sit in all sorts of ways. I want to get into a few more of those but burst on the on the summary thing.

I mean, what are your guys? This takes me and you researched the the background of the guys on board and a done a bunch of cool ship. Yeah no thoughts there.

Yeah no. I just want to say first though, like this, is this like goolies tweet and takes are do seem to be coming from super far left people, but some of them have like three million views on them and thirty thousand tweet and like seventy five thousand likes I am not yet .

in these numbers up and it's of people with with like five likes that we found to make a case .

right is the culture yeah yeah and and that's depressing, I think but yeah anyways the guys the guys that were on the sub, they were rich um with with the exception of the kid who was the sign of of a rich guy. But they are actually pretty like I read through their BIOS and there they're all kind of like bad access, quite Frankly. Paul Henry nark i'm probably gonna push her these guy's names he's he's the french guy on .

on the right yeah he's .

he's like um Cameron he's made more than thirty five trips to the to the titanic. Um he started I think he he started doing this in the in the mid eighties. So this is like he's doing this all the time.

His company owns the soviet rights to the titanic and he's apparently done a lot over the course of his career to protect the record side of the titanic. So he's like a titanic nerd okay, I guess in more ways than one. Um he was in the french navy. He was a mine clearing diver. He was a deep sea diver in a submarine pilot like this guy is just like a bas explorer like to do cool things and was really nerdy about the titanic. Um so he he was in the sub this guy how much harding, who is the the subject of that goolies tweet um he he does or did he did own a jet company, but the jet is a is a business jet that goes to antarctica and it's the only one on the world, like in the world that does that. And he's flown like buz aldrin to antarctica.

I think you go to antarctica to do like cool science shit and cool expirations stuff, right? He's not this isn't just like luxury travel to, I don't know the bomas or whatever um he has like he is a gin homage is a good a book of world record holder for like many things I think one of the things as he's he's been I think he was like the longest a the longest amount of time in a sumeria able at a certain depth like he holds the record for that he's been down to the mary on a trench in twenty twenty one he completed the fastest circumnavigation of the world in a jet. He went into the earth.

I don't know if he was piloting. He was with another guy. He was I think he was the saudia saudi guy. I'm not percent sure the details on that. Um he went to lower th orbit on um the blue origin spacecraft basis thing.

So this guy is like again another adventure risk taker who is just doing cool shit and like is having a good time. And of course he is also rich, right? But like he also is all the other cool things.

And then there's um the the british pakistani. This is guy with his son h his names um SHE ZARA the wood I think that's how you say IT. He's just like a science nerd he is on the board of trustees of the study institute which is the search for extra trust real intelligence study.

Actually put out a statement when we didn't know his fate um and the statement was just expressing like grave concern and they were like, this is a big deal. The situations really serious. We're really, really worried about this guy.

The guy has survived him and his his son has survived by his wife and daughter and like in the new york times, a bit very that I read about him. H both of them just like love, star wars and star track and are just basically science nerds. So you know, these guys are rich, but they're also pretty interesting dudes that have lives, cooler lives. Then probably all the people on twitter should talking .

them yeah that's it's like we shouldn't have to sit here talk about who they are, people for them to not be, for their deaths to not be celebrated. That's like a strange that and even has to happen. But when you sit down and do IT, it's like they weren't even just IT would even just like regular guys like these are people who did something they all they dish IT and that is sort of the subject um you know about this yesterday.

I publish something yesterday where uh I opened up with just like the dehumanization aspect that was happening, and then I got into something weirder that happened, which was more Normalized and less gruesome, but perhaps more significant, which was like this idea that they were stupid for doing this and and like maybe to a certain in extent, they got what was not even maybe to a survey, and I think kind of explicit this was made, this this argument was made and not in a Green way, but just a sort of matter of fact, many people who are no not on the socialist left just thought, well, um you you sort of have had IT coming because you took this crazy risk and you did this crazy thing that you didn't have to do. But if there weren't these crazy people taking these crazy risks, the world wouldn't exist. Nothing would exist.

Everything in our world that matters has been created because someone took a risk. And and this is kind of, yeah, this is a more performative risk IT seems to people kind of watching by whether I think these people on the on the vessel, and many explores like this sort of mount, every person we talk about, James Cameron, you know, going down to the mary on a trench. There's an impulse that people have, some people have, a minority of people have to do extreme things and to see crazy things and to take crazy risks and to survive just to do IT.

And I like celebrating that stuff because that is the thing, that impulse is the thing that leads to everything that matters, that it's like who we are to a certain extent. It's like love, curiosity and triumph over K, I think are kind of the three things that make people maybe make humanity what IT is. I think it's important.

I think risk is important. I thought about Harry who deny, you know, like, like, we all know one's like that. Fuck in, idiot. Everyone is like that. Cool, like he would be bound up in chains and trust and nailed in a coffin throwing the ocean, and he would emerge, you know, triumph over death. That was exciting to watch. What is that that that touches inside of us? I think it's an important thing and so like not only was the the celebration of of their death a horrifying to behold, I think that like we're also lacking something which is an impulse to be may be sort of odd by people experiencing or trying to experience seeking out this this sort of remarkable thing yeah.

I thought I was I was depressing to to see people say, like, like, you know, you could just watch netflix to see the titanic. You can just watch footage of the titanic on youtube. Why would you not just do that if you want to see the titanic? Yeah and it's like, are you serious you know is is that an actually serious critique of what these guys are doing?

I heard that a lot.

I saw I travel, I go outside.

Yeah.

because you can just see the outside on youtube like IT doesn't so .

what was just going .

to say that what I was seeing a lot of with people being like these rich people indulged in this insane you know in do so like self indulgent trip that they did um and they got what was coming for them because who in their right mind would bold themselves in two s and recipe and go down to the depth to see the titanic? But I think you're right. I mean, it's basically this desire to explore that you know underlies all of our great achievement.

Take i've seen a lot of is, why should we have any sympathy for these rich people who have paid for this self adult ent trip, you know, thirty two thousand feet down to the ocean to see the titanic when there? These migrants of the cost of greece, who is writing, which is, we've heard this take a billion times from mainly the left, which is like, why should we care about this one specific story when there's all other stuff going around, going on in the world? Yeah so here's what .

I have to say about. And I saw this a lie and at first, like, immediately bother me and they took me and it's sort of unpack what IT was about. IT bothered me. Ultimately I decided, like it's manipulative tactic. The point of of of a conversation like that is just to sort of shame someone for feeling some sort of way about a massive story that actually is like quite hard rifling to behold.

But my real question that I have for the people who are not only tweet about IT, but writing pieces about IT, the same people who are over at, 嗯， i forget, what was the trash journal that I went and discovered that the owner of ocean gate, who was down there, I had a orning, the new republic. So they have found out that he don't need to republicans rotocop piece about that. They were also sharing this piece on the micro.

And it's like, where were your tweet when that happened? Like you could have set no one stop in you from saying anything about IT. Why are you shaming me for not even knowing about IT? Meanwhile, you apparently did where where where was IT? Where was where was the critique? Where was would have loved to have heard about IT, but I didn't because here's the thing you don't actually care.

They don't and it's like it's like worse, what they're doing, they're using these dead migrants as a way to shame other people for feeling some kind of way about a story. And it's like for what? Why do you care this much? At the end of the day, people die every single day in horrible ways in from crime or disease or random horrible things.

Lightnings strikes can't like all every year, people in amErica die from light attending strikes. We don't hear about them. The stories take hold for whatever reason they do. They capture a desire. Guys, there was a lot about this one. IT was the fact that they were still alive like the kids who are in the cave, which is the other thing where it's like, oh, you only care about these men because they're rich. That's not true.

We just saw this, a perfect analog, go down five years ago in thailand with all those boys who were stuck in A K and IT was like the thing that kept you coming in was IT was, oh my god, these people are stuck. How do we get them out? How do we save them? What would I do if, if that were me? How you like that? The kind of thing that's happening.

And then this was even, this story was even, you know, more complicated, or I guess maybe sticky based on the fact that he was the titanic IT, they were going to see the titanic. And there's this hubris component. And you know, the owner had made these comments about risk in IT.

All is part of it's all part of the story. And that is how people react. They respond to stories that way. You can't shame people for Carrying about something that actually was wild to behold.

yeah. And I mean, to your point, new stories take hold for reasons beyond like, people. I mean, it's a story that IT just makes you put yourself in that position and you sort of the horror that IT inspires of like imagining yourself locked in the immersive um I think is what kept people hooked ed on the story um and paradoxically, I actually think that the coverage that this immersive guard and the migrant story has given the migrant story coverage at wind of others SE scotland .

yes people yeah they're writing all these stories and they are getting a lot of it's like the media has decided has to go into overdrive. I think really almost out of it's like to prove that this is a more important thing um and I mean a more important thing. It's like what makes something what makes one person's grazy Harrison ying death more important than another persons?

I horrifying death. It's like I don't understand this. I don't understand that it's like the point the point scoring based on someone's horrifying end.

I don't get IT. It's like I missing something. Are they missing something like in my brain perhaps like I might just chemically different. I don't like I just don't get IT. It's a crazy way to talk about something .

to me yeah um I want to .

I do want to I do want to get to hotels and rogan, but I guess the last piece on this, the year when I was writing this peace on the dehumanization that I was witnessing, it's ort of how sad that was the rist taking. I did also talk about this tech row shit and it's like there is the tech bro in sort of air quotes and I said it's like I don't even know what a tech bro is.

I've never met a to have worked in tech for twelve years now at this point. I've never met attack bro. I think the archetype, the idea that people have in their mind is some kind of like banker bro, like I really like masculine guy who is just like swing is dick around being an ash all in the in the board room and like making money or something but also he's working in a tech company as an engineer like these .

are nerds is ah well .

so I guess there there's A V C version of that and it's like those guys I don't know those guys like the I don't I think those that there are like a lot of people may be pretending that they're important in a sort of fit that that role. But the average tech worker is like the average engineer who is the reason that tech exists is just a nerd and it's like a nerdy guy is is like is what we're dealing with here, not even just White. It's like White indian. Like that is kind of what their guys and they are nurse and they are not rows and they're just interested in their cool, sort of like .

hobby est computer .

shit and then got for them because they've construct the entire modern world um but timid gabo, a sort of disGraced former google AI safety expert, is, I think, what she's built us now. He went off about how the tech brows were responsible for the collapse of santana go. And SHE cited three things particular, which I thought we're like a banana IT would make the whole tweet IT was amazing.

He said they were responsible for the homelessness, which is to go to problem, and emphasis so that everybody talks about. They were responsible for the shit train service, which I was like now leaving him. That's a really strange one to say. And finally, they were responsible for all of the dance clubs that he used to go to and loved closing down. Um IT sounds stupid, but this is actually an important phenomena idea of blaming this class of people for all of your problems is very closely related to this impulse to laugh when rich people die because you've created an archetypes that's like it's like you you basically framed the entire group of people is something that they're not um you've given them a name he calls SHE goes off specifically on something called tesco, which I wrote about in a peace called robots or racist.

What what is that? Is that an acronym for something.

acronym for a bunch of sort of futurist philosophes, including like trans humanism, rationalism? And there are I ve listed them all out in in, in the peace, but it's basically like all the really weird philosophes that you run up against in the bay area. And this is, again, they are not tech. It's like the banker bro is not a trans humanist. We are taught me not you know A E A person like you're talking about a very niche sub group of rationalists who are highly nervy and like that it's like you that it's a totally different thing but he kind of lumps IT altogether and her belief is that tech grows um who are part of this text oral movement which he labelled are are literally White's premises to genocide and the purpose of AI is to animate all non White people in the world long term and there are different ways of getting at this but her main implication is that it's gonna used to somehow I can habit birth of like the sort of non White people and and things like it's like a really crazy shit.

But it's also really closely related to something called blood libel, which is uh, how jews were demonized um I forget where IT first started but the idea was that like just one of the kilar kids basically and it's it's like this cartoonish way you're creating like a cartoon evil person and you're calling an entire group of people that thing and then it's like why are we surprised when the reaction to the greatly death of people termed with these labels or something close to IT are celebrated? It's like you have to humanize them. That's what you ve done.

But in the context of the of the city, think it's just crazy because it's like. Separately from the dehumanization ation. The reason the city socks is because the people in charge of the city are crazy and they've done everything like every problem that we're facing is result into a policy that has been put in place.

Can you is there any way of steel man tim is, uh, statement about tech is like, is there what I have .

I wrote this and twenty twenty I blamed tech rose sora that, I mean, I kind of explain how everything, how the city actually collapse the policy and all of this and extractor die. That's a piece that sort of put IT fired wires on the map to a certain extent. Um we were blamed at that point.

Anyone working in tech was blamed for leaving the city. The city was was breaking down because we were leaving. And I was like, this is just crazy, like you can't own somebody first of all.

And we didn't. The idea was that we extracted the resources in the city and left. And I like that, but that just absolutely not the way the world works.

No resources were extracted. This is an oil digg up oil in san Francisco. A gold is a gold rush. But not literally. The people who are leaving are the people who produced the value.

Its intellectual value IT is IT is IT is like our ideas and our hard work created something from literally nothing. And I say, are here. I was not a part of IT, right? Like I was. I worked in a vector capital firm. I was not even producing the value myself, but she's blaming the people who did.

That was crazy, I said, in fact, what happened with the same for disco budget doubled from six billion to twelve billion over that ten year period because of tech workers and tech companies um but where you can blame the entire industry is they didn't invoke politically and they're not going to like this the ten minutes of the world. They are not going to like this framing. But my belief is that actually, tech people should be running the city completely like they should be, like there are no tech people at any level of power in sanford scope, but they should occupy every level of power every person on the board of supervisors should be to a protect, a protect politician.

The mayor should be protect. Mayor should be from the tech industry is their industry. Towns are a thing um all across the country why is the most important industry this sort of like abused stepchild in the city that I just gave billions and billions and billions of dollars to which had squandered in a way that probably we have never seen in the history of the world.

I think there has never been a city that is wasted so much opportunity to the extent of 3Francisco has。 And so the steel man of timeless thing is like, yeah, we are. We are in some way responsible because there was an opportunity for us to do what she's actually to do what she's saying we did, which we didn't.

There was an opportunity for us to actually control the city. And we squandered, not even squandered. We didn't even we didn't even consider that opportunity. And and we should have and i'd see some science, some good science. Now maybe that some people are are kind of looking to get involved, but that's what should have happened, is we should have just been involved.

Where do you where do you think this this ends up with timid and her do you think she's ultimately gonna be successful that exterminating the the .

tech rose tech row? I think me, what is that look like in five years? What are she's trying to replace them in the AI safety conversation here. And that will have been flow depending on what's happening culturally and politically.

So if its advantages for the media to talk about racism in the context of artificial intelligence, timid will be the go to because she's made this her entire brand. That's what the test world thing is. I mean it's it's an an elaborate sort of um nightmare fantasy that she's concocted in which these actual notes are running the tech industry. And um you know SHE breath tlc talks about its ironic and he talks about to humanized and racism but he is one of the most sort of outspoken explicit racists in the entire industry.

Maybe the most she'll come up when that when that matters but she's in a competition for attention with like allier coastie and to a certain extent the more reasonable like like same old men um could actually I mean same also runs open the eye like he's an actually important voice point yeah I wouldn't I don't know that he he's definitely the C E O, right. Like so credit or credit is do but I think that short yeah, her influence will even flow. Inevitably, criticizing her will be labelled itself as racist. I look forward to that moment for me. We we should get on to rogan.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can break down what what the rogan hooters drama was. I think I think we should start with arcade. You're going on rogan. Um so rk junior, R F K junior in general.

maybe like not even just the rogan. Like what is your son know what is your what is this thing that is happening with R F K at this moment in time? IT seems like people are excited.

They're leaning in. They're like, maybe AIDS is a hoax. Tell me, yeah. Well, yes.

So ark junior, well, first, while he's running for president, I think that should be foregrounded any conversation about what he says because he's been in. I mean, people have known that ark jor has supported conspiracy theories for decades now.

Um I mean he I think he was kind of genetically primed for compress versy there is because what happened to his uncle, his dad um but you know is uh things to see I tracking him? Maybe they are um he, as you said, doesn't think that HIV causes adds. He for years has been talking about how actinia cause autism even precoe he was talking about vacations .

causing artisan article back ever continue. I don't know that I will get .

to IT yeah we can get to IT. I mean, there's there's definitely this is a conversation that needs nuance, which has been sorely lacking. Ah he's also very outspoken about wifi and five g in the brain melting potential of both, which I guess might be according I know I must .

have laughing and i'm like, well, I mean, I don't want to say never like he. I mean, he might be write about everything but this sounds crazy IT sounds I mean.

yeah a lot of the stuff he sound, he says sounds crazy um people say he's a persuasive speaker and I say people say because I don't actually find him particularly persuaded when he talks. But yeah, he's he's in the media lot nowadays. And he was in sf this week, I guess, on the streets talking about how we should solve the homelessness crisis and differences.

Go with housing vouchers .

with housing vouchers .

really the fentanyl crisis, which we're we're going to solve file addiction with housing vouchers, which I mean, we already put all the almost people up into hotels under COVID IT was a massive failure. Sorry, please Carry on.

Yeah no. I mean, so basically give money to to final tics and and that tall the crisis and differences go um but arf k junior was on rogan and they talked for three hours about typical ark junior topics and also kind of typical rogan topics a minute was really focused on vaccines, the code vaccine rogan talk about ever mecon obviously and there was conversations about five g wifi of course and the pod has blew up um and was also IT blew up both among rogan listeners and then of course among the disinformation experts and vice ran an article um which is called spotify has stopped even sort of trying to stem Jordan's vacuous information and they called the conversation like an orgy of vaccine misinformation and sort of ran through a bunch of uh arf k juniors claims and debunk to them although I was actually clicking a lot of the links that they were using to debunk and they were like links to the same device, journalists articles .

achieved something. I noticed this first time during the docker days. They would completely mind somebody in one piece a blog post of theirs.

And then like a week later, they would say, as IT has been established, yeah and they would link back their own trashy like journalists like a journal scribing. But think about a so that's anna. Merlin is the writer of peace. He is the person kind of most famous during student write, the uva. But SHE, uh, went after the people who first expressed criticism of IT.

There's robby swab is journalist that reason magazine um he was the first one who was like, this seems when the uva rape story, I believe that was a rolling stone came out, he was like this seems there are a lot of questions I have about this story and IT seems like there are some holes in IT and I I don't want to get attacked here but like we need to look into IT SHE freak out called the media said like he was a whole sort of IT was like, I know I think that was before the the meet you error but he was he was kind of IT was of that genre of thing we're like, how dare you criticize this? Obviously he was completely wrong. She's doing this.

This is the whole point. SHE loves to shut down conversation. That's like her. It's like that the trend in her career is like how to White police the conversation.

So my politically, my political views are the only things allowed to talk about. And this one, her job is, I mean, what she's trying to do here is not go after R F, K. SHE wants joe rogan show taking off of spotify and so she's going after spotify SHE saying like, yeah good.

I should say. I mean, that's like the framing with the articles, just like spotify is not doing their duty and .

they are because they're continuing .

to killing people.

litter killing people the thing yeah and no.

I mean, you're right. It's really it's not about ark jor um who's basically dismissed out of hand is like a crack pot at the start of the article is really about wise spotify continuing to give this platform to rogan legitimizing this information. All of these what .

a fascinating evolution from you could not this conversation could not have happens ten years ago. Ten years ago you were like, how could spotify possibly, quote, give a platform to so it's like, well, because it's free speech like like they can do whatever they want. And of course mean like IT, IT wouldn't even be a question you could understand. IT took us like years to chip away at that like cultural sensibilities surrounding the concept that like people are allow to talk about shit and disagree about things because this is amErica that's gone.

Yeah I also think it's just an old media mindset of thinking, okay, there's a platform that exists. So like you can almost think of IT as a physical stage. And we can control who gets up on IT and who gets to tell the public what to believe and what not to believe.

And if we can somehow get bad actors of this stage, right, and like, chain them back stage, then the public won't know this bad information. And that just doesn't make sense in the internet media. You go here is like people can get, I mean, there's lots of people who get all their information from twitter. And twitter is you know supposedly a free open forum, right? And there are people who are on rumble and all these alternative platforms.

Now read IT these growing great chats they are seeing. I think there are probably one of the bigger stories that we have no way to even really get out or we could, but it's very hard. Is the growing influence of just these of group chats and that are growing and going growing in size that are private.

Um yeah you're right. It's a different world and you can't really control IT completely. But he went on rogan and then then take get us to hotel right .

so he on rogan, uh how his name was mentioned, I believe in the podcast um and then who who had been computer hotels is a very famous ferocity gist. Um he works at failure university and he um has been very involved in cdc on vaccine policy. He is just a very you know public facing scientist um who is input involved with a lot of corona virus research vaccine development um he frequently pearce on platforms like CNN and um he had been on rogan a few years ago um and the'd had a conversation about about .

vaccines so they know each other um .

and at one rogan about jungle viruses was what they want .

to .

talk about and then they ended up being autism yeah yeah .

no so he he I guess he has been on twice um and yeah the main focus of the conversation is because I think Peter hood is his research has to also do with like tropical viruses and so Peter hotel has establishment scientist very renowned as IT should be said retweeted a the vice article and said something to the extent of you know it's really sad to see this is information I E rogan's podcast and ark junior getting such a platform this is a sad day essentially to which rogan response and says， hey, Peter hotels.

I will invite you on my podcast to have a debate with ark unior and I will donate one hundred thousand dollars to the charity of your choice. If you agreed to come, you know, no time limit, you guys just get on and fight IT out basically. And then, of course, you know, the twitter sphere enters the conversation. Elon comes in and says, well, so first of all, hot az response, I should say and says something about, I will come on your podcast, joe, but basically implies that he want to debate our kitchener okay, so that's the prime messes like rogan invite him who has basically as no. And then rogan makes that explicit by saying, hey guys, in case you didn't figure the salt, this is always saying, I want debate of good junior and this is when the twitter spirit enters and iron basically says you want to bake arcachon or because you know that your arguments organised up to his, your coward cover, but piles on. And there's a bunch people on twitter who are like, you know this boat taiwan nerd is too grade of ark jor to go ahead ahead with him and so who has gets piled on on twitter and then so this is yeah that 是 i don't know they're really not pro or of a junior， but there's pro to be piled.

I also he was getting tens of thousands of, I thought I won like setting seventy thousand at least likes honest. His self was going viral too, and he had to support of the entire media. He like every journalist on the platform, was on his side.

And then, yeah, absolutely. I guess I should say, yeah, short.

Shortly after that all happens. You can now you can find articles that where the headline is something like scientists should never debate on. Joe rogan, like the van guard, arrived and rode him a bunch of a story. Yeah, being like, no scientists shouldn't debate anybody basically yeah.

I was I was just going to tell me I was going to get to that because I going to save the whole disinformation, anti dic information media contingent basically to just, yeah they activated and there was exactly and there is a ton of scientists didn't be debating 呃 crackpots like our figure or I mean science science that word publishing article that said， I mean the headline was he was an orbit um and the the headline was like scientists ouldn't debating gas latters and the two reasons they gave, which I think we should explore because they're basically the reasons that define this whole this information debate were one hotel should not be debating our fate unior because he by debating him, you were giving we're putting their views on an equal footing and we're basically saying, okay, R K juniors like ideas about vaccines causing autism that or may be poorly subcenters ated or on the same intellectual playground as you know Peter hotels renowned for all logic ideas about vaccines. But the second point which is under emphasized um is that you know Peter hot is a scientist. He's not debate and you talked about this so on your piece but just like IT is unreasonable, I guess, to expect you know a scientist who spends all his time in the lab theoretically and you know you might even have a nerto debate, someone like africa junior.

so I agree with that. The first point is the the problem is there is one reasonable point in one in same point and you can't go after the in same point without being accused of a going after the reasonable point. The reasonable point is absolutely science.

And debate are completely when I say debate, it's like I think people here debate and and maybe many people here i'm saying like disagreement, like discussion or so i'm not talking about that. I'm talking about two people are on a podcast moderated by geo rogan. They're each given equal time.

They're going back in for and the way that you win a conversation like that is it's not that's chism a that is like nimble ness. When IT comes to a words, it's about being clever. It's about picking arguments apart in a really smart way.

It's about framing things in a smart way. It's not about learning or educating. It's about winning. And that's not science. Um I am not a scientist. I am a guy with a microphone on a podcast and that is a very different skill set. However, the much more in city is thinking here in my so I go off on that and I say that I don't like ark and i've talked about that a lot as well.

Um but the much more dangerous thing here is the the take the meat, the argument that we're seeing from a hot know he's citing all of these the fact that like media outlets are defending him is like case close know because vox dop calm said that i'm right that's an appeal to authority. That's not science either and the idea that that we're supposed why is the it's like we have to choose between the debate ebro mentality and the police. The historical quote believe science people and they're both wrong, but the belief science people are actually dangerous because they have actually spending charge.

And over the last three years, we were not allowed to criticize people like kotz. And he has been wrong about shit. He was the one, he was trashed, john stead, for talking about a label which we now have a very strong evidence.

We happened because, according to to the wall sty journal, and who knows, I mean the story just broke this. We even wn mean please we've known forever yeah in from history journal as of this week, the first reported case of coffee was someone who was at that fucking lab and it's like, why weren't we allowed to talk about that? Because people like hot wrapped in the cloak of science, we're saying, no, I am a priest and you are not allowed to deny what I say is true and that ship bothers me yeah.

I mean, this story is fascinating because that lab, so what the wall street general published, basically IT, was someone of that we have to institute of erotic gy, who in november twenty nineteen got something that appears to be who was working with corona viruses, experimenting with corona viruses contracted something that appears to be, uh, cover one of the first cases of cover nineteen.

And that research was partially funded by grand national student health grant, um one of which was underwritten by Peter hotels. And there are some cavities here about you know the extent to which is funding, like there was other funding coming from the chinese government too. Um and there was also I mean, the story has been framed the Peter hood's involvement in this has been framed as like Peter hotels was .

funding gain of function research theme making cove IT you don't know like that?

Yeah yeah. And IT seems like that might need to be a new one a little bit because there was definitely researched going on on current viruses in the mohan lab. It's not clear because there was like an research freeze on gain function research supposedly between twenty fourteen and twenty seventeen is not clear whether not.

And his grand overlooked in that period the research could have been classified as gain of function like whether not they are trying to make gain function just means making of irs more contagious basically. Um having said that, with all the heaven ots, the optics are awful like the optics of look, you some part of your research grap was going to fund work being done of this. We honor situated ferocity. Gy, that then plausibly seems to be, you know what LED to the outbreak that you know well and you're trying .

to silence you know, critique IT and I I have two thoughts here. So the first is just even if because I don't I think it's important to say we don't we don't know for sure that, that covered came from a lab. We don't IT seems all like most of the evidence at this point that we have.

But I only the most but there is a lot of compelling evidence in this most recent one is I mean that to mean like a smoking gun as and I I think most people on board at this point that that that is a smoking gun um but he could not be the case that having been said, we've been we've had evidence it's been suspicious from the beginning. It's been suspicious from day one and there is no and who knows that more than anybody would have been how test there is was absolutely no reason that we should have been framed as crazy people for wondering about what was happening. The fucking corona virus factory, a humanly a mile from where apparently corona virus emerged by itself.

The second thing is the game of function stuff. I think one thing I really don't like on the what's happening on on the right in reaction to what is perceived as left, this sort of policing of of information in this way is like, so gain of function research and it's this is what you do. This is not like, I mean, who knows, maybe there are buildings and buy your weapons over there.

But the reason that you would fund something like this is actually because you do care about getting ahead of paint tax and you're try, you trying to basically create really scary versions of the virus that you can then cure, work around or create vaccines for, like you're trying to preventively fix a problem that doesn't IT exist, but will eventually exist over a long of horizon, like we are going to be other pandemics. And people been worried about this for a really long time. I think the the impulse behind this research is really good.

It's very dangerous. I think we do obviously need to have our first sort of brought our conversation about IT. Now we have a bunch of labs um I member I was at boston university when they were building level.

I think it's there are different levels of like this sort of scary labs. And I think he was like a level five or something. The highest huge conversation about IT at the time and the you're sort of you can either study these things or you can not. But but we have to do and we don't have to study them is this is how the .

vaccines get developed though and sort of the and .

it's a risk you're taking to sort of mediate a future risk, and it's complicated. And as you mention earlier, like this is all of this stuff requires nuance, which is hard to come by here. But certainly things like this, this is the thing that is not set at all from the pro hotel people.

How do they not at least see that these failures on their part have completely undermined what is extensively their case? Their entire position is that we should trust them. And it's like you have to have humility and you have to be able to call someone like him out for lying about something.

He was clearly going after someone for a reasonable opinion knowing that IT was reasonable. And that is really, I think in cities, us and um and just really toxic to the entire conversation way more so than R, F, K, who people look at and kind. I mean, it's like a good debate or like I would love for someone to debate him.

I would love IT and I would love for you to not be hosts. I want someone who knows their shit to go and have a real conversation with him in front of everybody for three hours and just drill down on all of the evidence y has for things like, for example, HIV is a hoax. Like lets are the fact that HIV gives you AIDS is a hopes like let's really interrogate that position. I am curious. I have a lot of questions about that myself.

Yeah no, definitely. And I I think you know to your point, one of the issues with the framing of this entire debate about hotels is that the real issue IT seems like with the lab c is the biosecurity measures is like why there's you know former um what is that a former official and the health and human services department who came out and said, like there are multiple studies that were coming out of an age funded research in mohan that have alarmingly low biosecurity standards so IT might not be the case that, like you, these scientists were nefert's ously creating the cone of virus that they can release IT to the world. And my killed bunch of people, what was more likely the cases that they were in these experiments, the safety centers were subpar and that, you know, LED to this this outbreak.

very, very early days of the pandemic. Like I want to say that would have been february. I read an article in either the wall street journal of the washington post, which talked about there was a mention of, like, a very brief mention of this of like lab security issues and I was like before we polarized and couldn't talk about these things.

Um this is a problem that people been aware of for a while and people internally at uh I don't a much sure which department would have been responsible for for following this stuff um but there been all sorts of reports about people internally discussing this bury issue. It's like labs just not safe and and that's the question that we should be talking about, that the conversation we should be having like like if we want to do research like this, first of all, do we want to do research like this or to just beyond the pale and that is there's not the right answer. There is complicated and IT requires a public a robust public debate among people who do you know what they are talking about but come at IT for maybe different, different perspectives. And we have to make some kind of decision. And then if we decide to do IT, we have to figure out how to do IT more safely because clearly, whatever we were doing before did not work.

Yeah no. Definitely remains to be seen whether or not were a mature enough society to have one of these debates.

I know yeah it's like why do you can offer? It's like that's not going to have yes. So I even like like like that's just like that's never gonna en. It's just going to be chaos and pain demonic until the very end.

Chip sting. Ah yeah.

how do we survive like this?

Never ending me more.

You just got ta get it's just like you just maybe adapt. It's like if it's going to be if it's going to be clown world, you get to fight within the laws of clown world. You mention the means. It's like you just need Better means you a war of memes like there's no there's no point limit ting the fact you just got a meme. You just got a meme harder and longer and faster and stronger.

I mean, I I agree, I think this gets again to the old, old media, new media period time shift is like we're applying old media rules like this robust public debate that we think is going to happen with saying experts who we're going to sit down and the public listen with their note pad and then never is going to compare the process cons list and you know in good faith come to their conclusions were actually what we need is like a mean war, as you're saying, or like people who, you know getting on podcasts and rhetorical equipped to go back to head with someone like ark union. right? That's it's going to work, I think so which again.

like in my option on does not seem like that, that he would be that harder. I haven't really seen anyone, joe rogan, in that podcast of his briefly pushed back on the wifi thing.

Well, wifi radiation is quite does all kinds bad things, including causing cancer, wifi radiation ygene. I think i'm representing hundreds of people who have cl phantoms by the year is always the that you favor with yourself up. And you know we have the science of if anybody lets for .

majority IT will be over.

You know, the number, a lot of people, a lot of the cancer is not the worst thing. They also, you know, you opens up, I find ration opens up your black .

brain marrier.

And so, all right, my H, I want, there are, there are. I've been to use a number here and you're going to think it's hyper, but but it's not. There are tens of thousands of studies that show horrendous anger of wifi radiation.

okay. Will finally we're getting somewhere with the idea that why I destroys your black barrier and kills you or what it's like, okay, well, we're all using wifi. So this is like to start there like, clearly, we should be seeing way more cancer.

There should be some kind of crazy optic. Since we've all adapted, I don't see evidence for that. I could be wrong listeners.

Let me know if there's been some crazy optic and cancer broadly across the country. He briefly pushed back. He was like, wow, wow, wow.

Why if I gets you cancer? Let's sam packed that for a minute. Je pulled up and it's like, there are studies like that was that he was like, well, kate, I guess you're right.

Like, like, yeah, looks like google pulled up a bunch of cases and I did this to myself like in our shows like, wow, like there are. He's not lying there. There are studies, but there are tons of counter studies as well. And IT seems like it's like everything, a question of how much radiation you're being exposed to. So it's anyway another .

new probably .

not at risk from, but you can make seem really bad in a very clever way that maybe you even believe like I don't really have a doubt that are of casing your belief that wifi is killing people sort of left and right. I think that these things are just sort of mind drops with a little bit of evidence in one direction. You can create a pretty elaborate palace of of the idea in your own mind and get lost there. And once you really believe something you don't want to entertain the the counter evidence and have a nuance to believe about IT because you become radicalized. I've dealt with, I mean, we're all this is a natural human thing, I think is to become really obsess with something and then it's really hard to see outside of IT.

Yeah yeah and I guess that's what the disinformation experts think they're protecting us from is like they don't want us to um become radicalized. sure.

If they were perfect, I would be I would love the impulse, the problems that they are also behold into their own crazy ideas, and they are also lost in their own palaces.

But I also think there, I mean, I think that the disinformation experts are made are radicalizing more people, prayed toxicity, right? It's like on some level, someone like me, I would never have been I would not necessarily have been pretty posed to thinking that you know arf k unior was onto something with this blood brain blood barrier thing in the brain wifi. But if it's so um you know repeatedly and strenuously suppressed by these people who claim they know it's best, and i'm going to get curious and want to look into IT more. Um so it's .

a hover. I was up just .

when um before in unit over her twitter there was a fact checking program on twitter and they were using a third party um and they would mark tweet says potentially misleading or something like that. Every single one of those tweet that I saw that was marked as potentially misleading. I was more inclined to believe because of that label.

I feel like the disinformation it's so fraught and like you said, SONY, it's it's almost radicalizing to have somebody in your face in a way telling you, wait, what you're looking at, what you believe is isn't real. This isn't real. I know best. That's really frustrating. And I think IT just naturally engender skepticism.

Yeah, we don't trust them anymore. And all of these things just contribute to that belief. And if they were really interested in assisting the information ecosystem right now, what they will be focused on is apologizing for all of the things they got wrong and attempting humility because we can all see through IT.

Like we just know when you got something wrong, you can admit and if you can admit that it's like of actually completely rational not to trust you them because if you can't admit that I don't know, I don't know what else you're lying to me about. I know about a few things we've caught you in. I don't know about the rest of IT.

And so it's like you have to fix if you you're serious, if you really want to be educating the public, you have to be serious about things like this. And that's like ultimately for me with hotels I actually started the week more defending him. My piece was like too nice to him I would later discover as the days went on um he's not acting in the best interest of the public because if he were, he would have suggested immediately be someone to go in debate, R, F, K. And then rather than talk about all of the different media coverage that responding over him, he would have produced a very large article in the matter of a scientist taking apart in a very calm and reasonable way, all of the things that he thought we were wrong. But I still haven't seen that.

Yeah yeah. I mean, it's just you get the sense of these people are acting. I see these people, I mean, basically sort of people that what i've been calling the disinformation expert side, everything they're doing is creating conditions that are favorable to getting us to sort of buy into the most radical conspiracy theories possible.

And I also think another component of IT is there are so humorous, I think have no sense of humor, right? Like some of the shift that our cage in your says is does sound crazy, right? And IT would be there's like a lots of potential.

I think a lot of this like the sort of mainstream media, the reason they don't do that well on social media because they just don't know how to mean they don't know how to like post viral tweet essentially um and yeah I mean, it's like there are so many opportunities for these people if they were just put down there like capital d disinformation hammer that they just you know keep bringing down to have some fun and be like weight. Look at this guy. He's going to go on rogan and he has kind of like, no, I don't not saying you should make life his voice necessarily .

but his voice is he like the .

actions so really okay .

yeah the one in campaign hit me up after I wrote about him was previous and I IT was like very long email that I was sent insisting that zen x does in sss do like so antanas ii medicine do they are in fact responsible for school shootings, SHE insisted. Um all of them every school shooting is resulting of just it's their school shootings would not exist or is not for any time. Anxiety medication.

And one of the other things that you mentioned in there was like how dear you make one of his voice. He got he got IT from a bad vaccine accident. Maggie, what the fuck is going on over here? No wild the email um and I was like, listen, I didn't respond.

But when he comes to his voice, somebody i'm not making fun of IT let's just hon about what that's going to mean in a general election is like people are not going to want to listen to IT. And I know you don't like the fact of the matter, but this is just reality. Welcome to IT. I think we should uh think we should rap this one up. Final dogs or are none we closing IT?

I'm good. Think that's good for me.

and they were good. Have a good weekend, guess.